Chrono Compendium
Enhasa Halls - Chrono Series Analysis => Magic, Elements, and Technology => Topic started by: dpodubs on August 18, 2004, 11:28:30 am
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It wasn't until I started writing my story based on CT and CC that I began to think about this....how does the Epoch travel through time without tons of energy to power it up? It's got to have some sort of fuel so to speak that keeps it going back and forth through time and not to mention flying. I know the game never speaks of it (and if it did I missed it!)....but I was wondering if the games did or what everyone here thinks.
~ Time Traveler, Dubs
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The Zeal Kingdom had technology which was powered by elemental energy, maybe from the Planet. The Epoch could have had a similar power source.
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I going to suggest Mr. Fusion and the Fluxcapacitor, but...
Never really thought about this. On a similiar note, is the speed of the Epoch relevant at all to time travel? When it has wings, we see it zip around the planet before it warps, but without them it just disappears. However, when you find the Epoch in the future and use it for the first time, the graphic definately seems to suggest its moving...
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I think starky and Luccia say something about it when you take then to see the neo-Epoch at Viper Manor, but i can't remenber...
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Thanks for the lead. Though the Epoch may not have used this, the Neo-Epoch certainly does -- an antiproton drive, according to Starky. This is a bit different from Radical Dreamers's Antiparticle shells, which seemed to be more of an armor device. Belthasar must be one hell of an engineer. Starky goes on to say "A device that makes time travel possible?" I'm uncertain whether he's talking about the antiproton drive or mentioning something else that caught his eye.
Luccia merely mentions that Lucca told her of such a vehicle, and that its presence means that someone from the past or future is in 1020 A.D.
(Meanwhile, Belthasar chills in the library...)
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wormhole can be use for time travel, and they lose energie, it can be used by epoch to travel/fly
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Oops, double post.
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Belthasar > all other fictional engineers ever. Well, at least in terms of skills. Except maybe Bevel Lemelisk, but that's not even the same galaxy. But Scotty's still my favorite engineer.
For reference, Bevel Lemelisk is the asshole primarily responsible for designing the Death Star. The New Republic gave him the death penalty for this crime, but he had already been executed and had his soul installed in a clone seven times by the Emperor, whose methods of execution included such fantastically merciful things as being eaten by rabid pirahna beetles, kicked out an airlock, and thrown in hot boiling lava. Such a nice guy, that Palpatine.
Also, scientists at the University of Pittsburgh have actually developed a way to store antimatter. The particles, of course, are highly unstable, and have half-lives almost too small to measure. There's a good chance that by the year 2300, we've already figured out a way to suspend antimatter in stasis until it's needed, as well as utilize directed energy to propel the blast where we want it. This could work both as a missile weapon and as a thrust mechanism. One kilogram of matter and antimatter reacting together will release ~90,000 TJ of energy -- that's within the same power range as the most powerful nuclear weapons we've ever tested. Enough of this to fill a ship's drive, coupled with the capability to direct the energy release and withstand the g-forces of such speeds, might get the ship going fast enough to distort time, and some other mechanism could take over from there to propel the ship into four-dimensional space. That would require the ability to direct gravity sufficiently to bond the entire ship's chassis and engine together as one piece, to ensure maximum resilience against all external force. The reasons for this are twofold. One of them, I already listed. The other one is that if Einstein's theory that objects gain mass as they gain energy, since the two are interchangeable via E=mc^2, holds true and is not just a characteristic increase in momentum proportional to the kinetic energy of objects, then as the Epoch or Neo-Epoch approached the speed of light, or whatever imperceptible barrier must be surpassed to engage in time travel under Belthasar's principles, the ship would gain mass. More mass means more gravity, which, at a great enough velocity, would mean that the ship would collapse in on itself. A complete understanding of gravity, especially quantum gravity, is therefore required to do anything on the magnitude of what Belthasar did.
And he did.
Which means he is, as ZeaLitY aptly worded it, one hell of an engineer.
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Actually, relativistic speed doesn't cause an increase in the gravity a moving body affects on itself. In fact, its currently unknown whether relativistic speed affects a body's gravitational mass; it's known it increases its inertial mass, but we have yet to prove they're one and the same.
The inherent problem with accelerating to the speed of light is that from the perception of the moving body, its never getting closer to the speed of light, it's always the same. The notion of accelerating past the speed of light, while common in much science fiction, is absolutely impossible by our current understanding of physics.
On the other hand, if a body could be directly converted to tachyons (superluminal particles), it would then travel backwards through time. This might be accomplished through an extended GUT that also incorporates tachyons and gives us some way to convert matter.
And then we have wormholes. If one end of a wormhole is traveling at a relativistic speed compared to the other, the exit would be at an earlier time than the entrance, allowing time travel in a sense. Unfortunately, there are two problems with this. One is that the nature of a wormhole would cause it to break down at the subatomic level if the ends weren't at relative rest. Even if we can get around that, the exit point will be outside the lightcone of the entrance, so even if you send a message back at the speed of light, it'll still arrive after you left, so there's no way you can get back to your own past.
Now, if we could get a lot of negative matter (assuming it exists), there may be hope for another anti-relativistic method...
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Actually, relativistic speed doesn't cause an increase in the gravity a moving body affects on itself. In fact, its currently unknown whether relativistic speed affects a body's gravitational mass; it's known it increases its inertial mass, but we have yet to prove they're one and the same...
I was under the impression I made that distinction. Sorry if it wasn't clear enough.
Even if you could find a way to convert a ship to tachyons or other superluminal particles, however, there exists the obvious challenge of 1) changing it back, and 2) not killing whatever's onboard in the process.
Let me attempt to make what I said clearer:
For this first half, let us assume that there is an absolute mass increase at relativistic speeds. This supposed mass increase is the reason one cannot travel faster than light. As one approaches the speed of light, more and more energy is required to push the increased mass along. At the speed of light, mass becomes infinite, thus having the ship occupying all parts of the universe at once and having infinite density. Not only does this break every law of physics I've ever heard of, it's impossible to move an infinite mass unless you have infinite energy. Neither infinite mass nor infinite energy exist in the universe, so that screws everything over right there. That possibility is the one in which the gravity field would crush the object. Now for the other one.
If it is only inertial mass that increases, the choking restrictions on speed somewhat abate. Now you have "merely" to find enough energy to get up to those high speeds. That's what Einstein's famous equation is here for. If I wanted to move even a one kilogram mass up to the speed of light, even ignoring the possibility of a gravitational mass increase, I'd have to multiply one by 300,000,000 squared, since the notation for all of these equations is in SI units. Coincidentally (or maybe not), that comes out to 90,000 TJ. But the Epoch is going to weigh a lot more than a kilogram. And the entire U.S. doesn't consume that much power in a year. Hell, it doesn't consume that much power in a century, and controlling such an energy release is problematic at best. With today's technology, it's quite impossible.
Anyway, this dark matter business could be involved with it somehow. It ain't just for kickin' people's asses anymore.
The ultimate anti-energy -- a force that, to use poetic license, unnaturally sculpts the fabric, the energy, of the universe to keep it something approaching stable. Einstein's greatest folly, Belthasar's tool, or something else? I don't have the resources to do any impactful research on it sitting in my room in DFW, Texas, nor have I had the proper college schooling. Truthfully, I don't have the right to talk out of my ass right now, even if it turns out that I'm right, because I haven't gotten a degree. But people said the same thing about Feynman in his debates and interactions with Fermi. And now we revere them both.
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Well, it's inertial mass that gives us the problems with accelerating something; higher inertial mass means harder to accelerate, and we know that inertial mass increases with speed.
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The laws of physics as we know them are made irrelevant by manipulating the elemental forces. Zealian technology, and the technology of 2300 AD (ie Robo) can demonstrably do this.
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Well, it's inertial mass that gives us the problems with accelerating something; higher inertial mass means harder to accelerate, and we know that inertial mass increases with speed.
That's articulated much more clearly than the giant wad of crap I had typed out before. Had my masses confused, or something...
*conk*
The very definition of inertia is the tendency of objects to keep doing whatever they're doing unless an outside force acts on them. And, as your speed gets higher, it becomes increasingly hard to influence the motion of an object. But don't take my word for it. Go stand in front of a moving truck and try to stop it.
Didn't work, did it? :-P
But I've been going on full burn since 7 AM, so oh well.
Question for Leebot: Where do you go to school?
As for the technology of Zeal, it uses magic with it. Robo can't use magic and therefore cannot do this. In addition, to some degree, all elemental powers can be rationalized physically without changing the existing laws of physics. Didn't say anything about not having to add new stuff, though.
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I'm currently attending the University of Waterloo (Ontario, Canada).
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Somehow I'm not particularly surprised.
Another question, because I intend to go into physics: How much money is there to be made in the field of theoretical physics? Call it an unhealthy mindset of mine, but I like stacks of green paper in my red right hand.
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Alrighty now... Anti-protons? Those fall in the same category as positrons and all, don't they? Something to do with the arrangement of Quarks... charm and up and down and strange and all that weird physics that is wholly beyond me. Anyway, regarding the speed of light and all, I just feel inclined to point out that past history has rendered such absolute barriers meaningless. It has often been the case that our theories proclaim something "impossible", and only after the fact do we go "aha! Our equations were wrong!" Take the Doppler equation, for example. According to it, an object moving at the speed of sound compresses the waves in front of it to make a higher frequency. The problem is, according to the equation, this is infinite. People once thought that the sound barrier would cause infinite frequency, and destroy the vehicle. Of course, however, their equation was only too simplistic, and only applied for subsonic conditions. I think a very similar case might apply for the speed of light. And let us not forget that these theories are based, I have heard, on the supposition that the speed of light is a universal constant in a vacuum, throughout all time... which might not truly be the case. I have heard it said that there is a chance that light is actually slowing down over time. Anyway, I think that this so called light barrier may simply be an illusion dreamt up by simplistic (ironic, as I am sure they are a little complex) theories.
In regards to inertia and acceleration... actually, I don’t think that inertia quite governs the power needed. It seems odd to me at the moment, but inertia M=mv. The equation that would give required power would stem from F=ma, where a is the desired acceleration and m the mass of the object. Pardon me, that is a touch wrong. Let’s see... mass changes, so to keep a constant acceleration... all right, this is beyond me at the moment. But it would simply involve the integration of the time dependent variables, in this case it would likely be m, with respect to time, unless my wits fail me. m is f(v) ie. mass is a function of velocity; a, acceleration, is considered a constant, here, although I suppose it would affect the function that governs the mass. What is that damned equation again? Ai, whatever it may be, it has a v in it. Now, if acceleration is constant, that means that v=at. Thus we gain an equation that looks like so: F=f(at)a... where f(at) is whatever the equation for the mass at a given velocity is, with ‘at’ replacing (this assuming velcoity initial = 0.) Now, integrating this would be decidedly odd... BUT E=Fd, where d=vt, thus d=at^2. Combining these yields that E=f(at)*a*a*t^2...E=f(at)*a^2*t^2... shit, I’ve confused myself, and this is going nowhere. 1:00AM is not the time for engineering, I tell you. I probably couldn’t do this aright even at the best of times. But there should be a way of doing this. But I am quite sure that it is this F=ma that is to be used, along with perhaps E=Fd. That might actually be better. E=mad. If that can be put in terms of time, it might be possible to find the energy through integration. I think I messed myself up with trying to integrate the force, only finding that force, being time independent, would be somewhat meaningless to have summed up over a distance or time. Anyway... m=f(at) again. d=a*t^2 again. Alright, I’m confused again. I don’t think this will yield energy to integrate with respect to time; maybe just putting in a number for time would be effective. After all, E=mad, which is essentially what this is. d is usually used as an integral anyway, a difference from end to start. I suppose using time that way would be the same thing, too. Maybe a different approach... E=.5mv^2... kinetic energy. Maybe it will work better than looking at forces applied over time. m=f(at), v=at, therefore... hey, same thing. Well, what do you know. Maybe it does work. E=f(at)*a^2*t^2, where f(at) is the function that defines mass at a given velocity, with velocity replaced with ‘at’. The only thing that bothers me is that mass... I still feel as though it should be integrated with respect to time, somehow... isn’t this the point mass? The mass at a given velocity? I think what is needed is the average mass, actually. Sorry, I’m too tired to think through this now. Anybody else know how to do this? Hadriel?
One more note: I wonder, though... about the acceleration and all... could anti-gravity accelerate something sufficiently? Creating an artificial anti-gravity phenomena behind oneself could result in quite the acceleration. The problem is that gravity, of the five basic universal forces (electricity, magnetism, weak nuclear, strong nuclear, and gravity), not only is it the weakest, but it will be the last to be reconciled to the others (so far only three have been found to be related: electricity, magnetism, and weak nuclear.)
Oh, and as far as Balthesar goes... my opinion on him being an engineer is this... I'll quote me:
Second before him in years was a man of great worldly knowledge, named Balthesar in most lore. Kingly and tall, and marked with a great beard of white, he was held by those under him to be nearly king-like. But, as his two nearest friends, he did not care for glory overmuch. His chief love was in the making of things, and in the understanding of the truths that reside in and govern the world as it is seen to the senses. Little of the ways that pass under the watch of the sun was unknown to him, and with many devices he even looked far into the heavens as an astronomer, marking the movements of the stars and planets. In after years he would have been known as a man of science, but as yet in Zeal no such thing was known, and he it was that first gave birth to many of those ideals that were later re-learned by those knowledgeable men of the Hellenes (of whom Aristotle was chief.) He mastered the rules of the world, and knew the ways in which to turn them to his own ends, forging wondrous creations: a great flying machine, devices uncounted, and even the great time-ship called Epoch, used in the salvation of the world by the Great Hero, is accounted to his hand.
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Bad... physics... overload...
Where to start...?
F=dp/dt, where p=m*v
So, F=m*a + v*dm/dt
Solving for a gives a=(F - v*dm/dt)/m
Relativistic equations give m=m0/sqrt(1 - (v/c)^2)
A lot of calculus and algebra gives
a=(F/m0)*(1 - (v/c)^2)^(3/2)
This means that with a given force pushing on an object, its acceleration is the expected F/m0 at low velocities, but as the velocity approaches c, the acceleration approaches 0. If you want to get into energy, the relativistic formula for kinetic energy of a particle is:
KE=m*c^2/sqrt(1-(v/c)^2)
At v=0, it simplifies to KE=m*c^2. At v=c, it becomes infinite.
Using antigravity wouldn't help much, as the most kinetic energy you could get would be determined by how much potential you're at, and you have to expend this amount of energy to get to that potential.
Oh, and on the fundamental forces. First of all, magnetism isn't one of them. If you really want to delve into it, magnetism doesn't really exist, its just a model used to predict the interactions between the electrostatic force and special relativity. So far, the electrostatic force, weak nuclear, and strong nuclear forces have all been unified into a Grand Unified Theory; gravity is still left out.[/quote]
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Thank you! That's what I was talking about. Man, I should know this sort of stuff. Well, the pure physics maybe not, but I'm a MecE, so the things pertaining of acceleration and force fall within my field of study. I didn't even remember that one could derive force from momentum, and the whole derivation...it makes sense, but it's frustrating, as I should have thought of that. It totally escaped me that one would need to account for the mass changing with velocity by the realization that the velocity is changing as well due to a constant acceleration over a time, and thus not going to zero in the derivation. I think that it's been far too long since I saw that momentum and force were so related, and we MecEs don't usually throw in correction for mass increase due to velocity (we like to keep things simple and round... a lot.) So we usually just use either p=mv or F=ma. Oh, well. At least it makes sense now, after confusing myself for half an hour in my last post; thanks for pointing this out. I suppose if that acceleration equation were switched around for force, it coudl then be integrated with respect to distance travelled to yield total energy required for a constant acceleration over a distance. Well, I suppose the equation would need to be put in terms of d first (ie. v=d/t; and a=d/(t^2); putting that in place and moving the F to the left yields... F=((d*m0)/(t^2))*((1-(d/(c*t))^2)^(3/2))^-1. Unless I miss my guess, one can now integrate this across any spacial distance, and putting in a time will yield the energy required to move that object across that distance in the given time (very handy, especially if you know what you want your average velocity to be. Say, 10,000m/s; and say d=1*10^6m; then t =100. A similar thing could be done with a=d/(t^2) if one knows desired acceleration.)
And as for GUT... I'm not really versed in that very well, but I was under the impression that it still eluded physicists, and that they were still attempting to reconcile the Strong Nuclear force with the first three; Gravity would then be the fifth to be reconciled for the Theory of Everything. And sure magnetism exists! Granted, it is simply another form of electricity (they being invertable through electromagnet coils or generators), ie. electromagnetism... but isn't that the point? They are called "5" forces, but the scientists attempt to reconcile them together and find equations that connect them. This was done, a hundred or so years ago, with electromagnetism. Since they've also done the same with the weak, making Electroweak, essentially turning those three into forms of a single force. Have they done so with the Strong as well, then? Because if so, that is a major jump. Only gravity would then remain, and we would have a single force that governs all this universe's physics.
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Well, yeah, magnetism does exist, its just the combination of the electrostatic force with relativity. I'm pretty sure there is a GUT that connects in the strong nuclear force, but even I don't have the physics knowledge to explain it. A TOE still eludes us (What is it with physicists and bad puns? First it was p-branes (a favorite of Stephen Hawking), now we have GUT and TOE.).
The point I was trying to make with magnetism is that people generally talk about the four fundamental forces, as we can't unify these four without going into the realm of pure theory. Electricity and Magnetism, however, can be unified rather easily based on (as I said before) electrostatics and relativity, both of which are derived directly from imperical evidence.
A word of advice for any students taking a physics test: Whenever you're asked to prove something, just say that it's shown from imperical evidence.
Oh, and the equation for distance with constant acceleration is: d=x0 + v0*t + 1/2*a*t^2.
The integral equation is: ∫(∫a*dt)*dt
You need to use this to derive the relativistic equation for kinetic energy.
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Hmm, when I didn't know the answer, I would just say "Assume a spherical cow" based on a story our physics teacher told us. He's a cool guy, he even has an underground lab.
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A word of advice for any students taking a physics test: Whenever you're asked to prove something, just say that it's shown from imperical evidence.
Yeah, well, that doesn't always work.
Oh, and the equation for distance with constant acceleration is: d=x0 + v0*t + 1/2*a*t^2.
The integral equation is: ∫(∫a*dt)*dt
You need to use this to derive the relativistic equation for kinetic energy.
Sorry, I'm not quite that well versed in relativity, or how it relates to magnetism and all. I'm a MecE, so more physical movements and the like are my field. That integral equation, for example: first integral yields v=a*t +A, and deriving that again yields d = .5a*t^2+At+B, where A and B are constants, denoting initial velocity and distance, respectively. That I know. But as for your final line... honestly... I'm not quite sure in what you mean by the relativistic equation for KE. I assume you mean that it's the one that changes with respect to velocity, ie. where mass is variable... but such things do not normally concern us MecEs.
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By "relativistic equation" I'm referencing KE=m*c^2/sqrt(1 - (v/c)^2) as opposed to the classical KE=1/2*m*v^2.
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Relative to velocity, then. I understand. Thanks.
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Ah! Electrostatic force was the term I was searching for, not electromagnetism.
As far as everything else goes, it all makes a great deal of sense...and that terrifies me. Being able to understand this stuff isn't something everyone does well, but Leebot's a hell of a lot better at explaining it than I am. Of course, he's had more experience in doing so.
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Relative to velocity, then. I understand. Thanks.
Actually, I meant "Relativistic" as in derived from Einstein's theory of relativity. There are, in essence, three "theories" of physics, used in different cases, each with its own equations.
Classical - Newtonian physics, used in everyday circumstances. (KE=1/2*m*v^2)
Relativistic - Einstein's relativity, used for cases with high velocities involved. (KE=m*c^2/sqrt(1 - (v/c)^2).
Quantum - Quantum mechanics, used in microscopic cases. (KE=H^=p^/2m (The "^" meaning that it's an operator. If you're not a physics major, don't worry about this.))
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Nope, just an engineering student; the "classical" case is about all we deal with. We like to keep things simple.
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Guardian knows better than a lot of people that anything I touch becomes ridiculously complex. Accordingly, when I get into college I'm going to give the theoretical physics universe a giant kick in the ass.
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Well, if E=mc2 is what your using for time travel via the neo epoch, and inertial mass increases with speed, thus requiring more energy to move the object, the solution isn't in pouring more energy for a declining return of speed.
you need to remove inertia. If you do, there will be no resistance. If you can't remove it, lessen it. As I understand it, inertia is the cause of particles colliding, if you used an energy field to seperate particles and reform them as the vessal moved, you could theoretically remove all inertial resistance.
I'm a physics newbie though, so I could be WAY off base.
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The one problem with all this physics stuff (besides me not completly understanding those ridiculously complex problems) is that Chrono Trigger has a slightly different set of physics. So, it must run on something completly different.
All the stuff applies fine going forward in time. I've heard that it possible by doing things like going into a black hole, but that its impossible to go BACK in time.
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Travelling in the speed of light makes the illusion you travel through time. You're just moving so quickly, so what is, say, ten days to you, could be a few houndred years in "real" time. Therefore, it's no more travelling to the future then waking up in the morning.
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Oclaim's Razor(or however it's spelled) Anyone? Is it that hard to think that Epoch is powered by Zealian magic? omg.
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Ockham's Razor is the name... And Zealian Magic dosen't seem right to me... If the Epoch is powered by dreams, it would just make it the ultimate vehicle for Crono's group.
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well i remember something about gravity to be able to bend time and space, prehaps the movement aspects of it both lateraly and time wise are handeled by generating gravational forces strong enough to litteraly tear a hole in the fabric of time and space.
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I going to suggest Mr. Fusion and the Fluxcapacitor, but...
I knew someone would mention this eventually. Also, did the movie ever explain how a Flux Capacitor even works?
As to what powers it...hmmm...maybe it siphons energy off the pilot. Since Crono has electricity as an element (or heaven, whatever), it would work as a suitable power source.
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As I said, Robo said that he senced that the Epoch was being powered by the total sum of all spirit power that had ever existed.
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Just to clarify that, the original Japanese stated:
Robo: Energy that I have never seen!
Just as though it has amplified human
willpower to a terrifying extent....!!
Which is more of a thematic statment than saying it is fueled by human willpower.
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Or possibly a energy we cannot understand. The guy was very smart, he probably knew much more than any of us.
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Well, I don't understand antiproton energy :)
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Or possibly a energy we cannot understand. The guy was very smart, he probably knew much more than any of us.
It's a contrivence for the sake of the story.
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Yeah, I've gotta go with Occam's Razor. A wizard did it. That's my explanation of it.
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Yea. Belthasar.