Chrono Compendium
Enhasa Halls - Chrono Series Analysis => Magic, Elements, and Technology => Topic started by: V_Translanka on August 15, 2004, 04:07:01 am
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I assume that even when the so-called "Enlightened" Ones were in Zeal, they did not automatically know Magic. For one, it's said how Schala and Janus seem to have their Magics (or lack of Magics) tested just to see if they have any ability. It makes sense that someone would teach them, if not exactly, then somewhat like how Spekkio teaches Crono & Co.
I immediately thought: The Gurus! But I also thought: Which of them would teach Magic? Did any of them even seem to know any Magic? Belthasar seems like he'd be too busy with the Epoch and the like...Melchior with his weapons...So, then, Gasper? Was there a Zealian council? Perhaps Dalton (he was a Magic user and even a Summoner)? Probably not...Or maybe it was just some of the scientists of Kajar or something? Maybe Q. Zeal herself taught Schala?
wudduh yuh t'ink?
edit: sorry about the damn double post, could someone get rid of that other one for me? Here's the stuff from that other thread btw...
Some social workers
Melechoir would be the most likely of the Gurus. The only weapon we know him to have made during the Zeal era was the Red Knife, and that's after the Queen lost it. Being the Guru of Life, he would have a great understanding of the order of nature, and, as magic was a part of life, how the elements interacted with each other and other parts of nature.
There's probably a more eloquent way to word all that, but I'm tired.
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I just thought of something: What if Spekkio is an extension or creation of Gaspar? If so, it stands to reason that Gaspar could be able to teach magic to the people of Zeal.
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These two threads should probably be merged or something.
I figure magic probably came to be in the same ways that any art or science does. In the beginning, rudimentary spells/forms of magic are used - things like levitating a rock, or healing a scratch on your arm. Eventually, this becomes more and more complex.
Who teaches it? There's probably not one single source - although we are told that Queen Zeal "nutured the development of magic", so that would suggest to me that either she or her "administration" (Works of a whole body are often attributed to one person for the sake of simplicity - or to give her all the glory, she being the monarch!) must have made some incredible breakthrouighs in the arcane studies. I'd guess that Zealians learn magic from their parents, tutors and mentors, and from each other - not just from one omniscient source.
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It's possible that innates can learn to use magic without outside help through some combination of trial, error, and luck. After some have learned, they can teach it to others. Maybe it's so common in Zeal that parents teach it to their children.
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I don't feel this issue needs complication. Considering Zeal has libraries containing volumes of knowlede, and nearly everyone can use magic, I'd make a good guess that it isn't something to worry about; the innates of the royal family had a dominant magic trait, unlike the recessive trait of Crono and his company, and it could probably very easily be unlocked.
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It is possible that even innate magic users require some kind of training or conditioning to utilize their talent. This would explain why the time travelers needed to have their magical abilities activated.
As I see it, the innate magic users of Zeal developed their abilities through scientific investigation. This took two forms: the discovery of elemental principles resulting element-utilizing technological innovation, and the application of this scientific knowledge and technology to uncover the innate magical ability of humans. A entire city in Zeal was devoted to research of magical phenomenon. I think that the use of innate magical ability occurred after technological advancements such as the utilization of the Sun Stone, and perhaps the discovery of innate magical ability was an unexpected result.
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Maybe they found it on their own through trial error? Maybe, after touching that red rock, someone managed to pull it off somehow while messing around one day, and others saw what he did and wanted to learn how he did it? ;P
Or, Lavos could have taught Zeal, And Zeal taught the rest... but the 2nd ones unlikely. ;P
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Remember that RPGs leave most of the world implicit. When you enter a village with only three houses and just seven or eight people, it's not really that small. The Kingdom of Zeal seems to be very large, certainly with a population at least in the hundreds of thousands and perhaps many more, with more than just the few cities shown on the map.
This means that, just as in the real world, no one character such as a Guru or the Queen of Zeal would be able to teach magic to everyone. Because it seems that the only difference between Enlightened and Earthbound ones is the ability to use magic, and this is without any concrete exception, we can imagine that everyone in Zeal is born with the ability to use magic. These skills would no doubt be disciplined in children by their parents and teachers. Perhaps high-level students study under some of the Big Names, but ordinary Zealish wouldn't have access to the valuable time of those types.
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It could be that the Enlightened ones are taught Magic like kids now days are taugh in school. But it is interesting to note that their magical powers disappeared after the Ocean Palace disaster. It seems like their magic was tied to the mamon machine, getting power from Lavos. But then how did Crono and co. get their magically powers, as they didn't have any connection to the Mamon machine?
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Like Magus thier power came from the planet, not directly from Lavos.
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if it came from the planet, then why did the enlighten ones loose their powers after the ocean palace disaster?
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He meant Crono & Co's magic came from the planet, not the Enlightened Ones' magic. The Enlightened Ones' magic came from Lavos through the Mammon Machine.
Also, worth mentioning is that one of the Enlightened Ones refers to Crono & Co's magic as 'primitive'.
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Zealians used to use the Planet's magic though, before they found Lavos's
[Young Man]
The Queen has sealed the Elemental
Weapons in the north palace.
You can see its entrance on the
northern continent, but no one is
allowed there.
[Young Man]
Combine the ancient Rainbow Shell and
the Sun Stone to create incredible
weapons and items.
But now, only the Guru of Life has the
skill.
Elemental power usage is forbidden.
Ah!
Plants are so content!
I wish I could be, too.
[Young Man]
That's the Sun Keep you see on the
southern continent. A Sun Stone, once
the source of this world's power, was
kept there.
But when we began using our new
energy source, it was sealed up just
like the north palace.
They claim we don't need the energy
of this tired, old planet.
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Yes, used to. That's why the one Enlightened One considers Crono & Co's magic primitive.
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I'd hardly call Luminaire primitive though. :P
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Heh, neither would I; I assume that person was being pompous because Crono & Co's magic was different, not necessarily weaker.
Although, it's not like the Enlightened Ones raise themselves up above everyone else or anything like that. Oh, Wait. :lol:
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Enlightened Ones probably used similar magic but in much weaker form so they thought that Crono & co magic is primitive
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BTW, is it true that Zeal is based upon some of the legends of Atlantis? I heard that somewhere, I can't remember.[/img]
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BTW, is it true that Zeal is based upon some of the legends of Atlantis? I heard that somewhere, I can't remember.[/img]
It's based on Atlantis in broad strokes: Both are ancient civilizations that were more advanced than the modern ones, but were wiped out in a catastrophe.
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Hmm, I think that it was distrubuted like this. When the queen nurtered the magic, she held on to it by passing it on to the gurus, and ultimately her own children. From the gurus, they passed it on to Zealot Scholars, whom researched the science. Then Zeal being School like, taught people of Zeal. Later, the people educated taught they're children.
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I think you're right. Zeal is very school like, from what I remember of the cities in Zeal there were people sleeping in beds in the main halls of the city and many books lying about. Zealians seemed to have a very community-oriented existance
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Yes, they were very communitly oriented. It's in fact something intresting, Enhasa tried to find "peace in the bliss of sleep" or something to that effect, which very much fits Zeal, all with the idea of "the ingdom where dreams come true."
But what I think is that they used the Mammon Machine to gain magical power, and I think it was open for public. Maybe once children reach a certain age, they're taken to the Mammon.M?
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The Mammon Machine must have played a great part in it. They could have had a ceremonial mass for the people who were about to recieve the gift of magic too.
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I always saw it as the Queen's way of numbing the people, by putting them to sleep...and the Mammon Machine's trance-inducing qualities...Kind of a way for the Queen to do things unnoticed or something w/o the people really caring. I mean, how else could such an advanced culture condone banishing people to the cold earth below just because they don't share in their magical 'enlightenment'?
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That makes me re-think it all over again. Because then there were the people who could use magic strongly, people who could use it weakly, and people who couldn't use it. Now, if a person couldn't use it, they were banished to Earth, to suffer their own fate. People who could use it weakly might have been subjects to the queen, like servants and cooks, nothing to heavy. People who could use it strongly were regular citizens. Or Scholars.
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I always saw it as the Queen's way of numbing the people, by putting them to sleep...and the Mammon Machine's trance-inducing qualities...Kind of a way for the Queen to do things unnoticed or something w/o the people really caring. I mean, how else could such an advanced culture condone banishing people to the cold earth below just because they don't share in their magical 'enlightenment'?
Ask George Walker Bush he know alot on this subjet
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He would George W. Bush is, indeed, from an advanced civilization from long ago. However, he became filled with bitter resentment after being tossed to the Earthbound Ones below, so ever since, he's planned his revenge (being an immortal, several thousand years is nothing to him). While the former kingdom has been reduced considerably (now known as Iraq), he still continues his personal vendetta against it.
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[qoute="V_Translanka"]I mean, how else could such an advanced culture condone banishing people to the cold earth below just because they don't share in their magical 'enlightenment'?[/qoute]
Simple, almost everyone in Zeal were morons who thought they could live forever. They were cocky, it was obvious when they spoke with Crono and co. Actually, they kind of remind of the kind of cocky guys who were in Chronopolis, who thought they can control time. CONTROL THE FLAME FIRST, YOU DIMWITS!
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Simple, almost everyone in Zeal were morons who thought they could live forever.
But that's not true. I went to Zeal yesterday and talked to all the NPCs and got to the 2 hidden rooms. But the point is that when they mention immortaliy it is always in reference to the completion of the Ocean Palace. When you beat Dalton he says; "I can't die now, I'm going to be immortal! And then teleports to the ocean palace. Another NPC mentions that they will become immortal soon but they don't say they are then. Maybe Queen Zeal made some claim about them all being immortal with Lavos' energy or something.[/b]
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Simple, almost everyone in Zeal were morons who thought they could live forever.
But that's not true. I went to Zeal yesterday and talked to all the NPCs and got to the 2 hidden rooms. But the point is that when they mention immortaliy it is always in reference to the completion of the Ocean Palace. When you beat Dalton he says; "I can't die now, I'm going to be immortal! And then teleports to the ocean palace. Another NPC mentions that they will become immortal soon but they don't say they are then. Maybe Queen Zeal made some claim about them all being immortal with Lavos' energy or something.[/b]
That post just contradicted itself. So they didn't think they could live forever, but they did?
Immortality can't be achieved. Period. You mess with fire, you get burned. You mess with huge porcupines, you get huge thorns up your arse. Seriously, how long did they think they could keep draining Lavos' energy before he noticed?
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He meant they weren't immortal but though they could in a near future.
Which make them arrogant none the less.
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Allow me to quote myself.
Simple, almost everyone in Zeal were morons who thought they could live forever.
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Hhmm... lemme c..the question is : Who taught magic to people of Zeal ?
Actually i belive... well... you have to remember the story the dragon tear tell to Serge when he want his body back.... well...i could write it here... but, u know... well...the "apes" (Ayla tribe or whatever) came into contact with the "crimson flame" (a.k.a. Frozen Flame, as u all know it is part of lavos... and all) and evolved into "humans" .... it is like the "humans" are part/child of lavos (that's why they can use magic... "evolution", "transformation")...but of course people are diferent everywhere... some are stronger some are smarter and etc... that's why some people have a lack of magic in the Kingdoom of Zeal.
Well .that's what i think... maybe i'm wrong.... i hope you guys find it usefull :)
Thx for the time....
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the "apes" (Ayla tribe or whatever) came into contact with the "crimson flame" (a.k.a. Frozen Flame, as u all know it is part of lavos... and all)
Only technically true. The Dragon Tear actually states the Crimson Flame is Lavos, and not the Frozen Flame.
However, the unforeseen coming of the mighty one from the heavens suddenly smashed their kingdom to pieces. That one was known as "Lavos!" The great crimson flame......
And I should think that "Evolution" (Mind you, what happaned to the humans is more like a series of mutationes then evolution) only gave humans the ability to use magic. Lavos' Mammon.M, or as I suspect, the Frozen Flame, is what gave the humans magic.
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Hmmm.... lemme c .... u said, "...That one known as ""Lavos""! The GREAT Crimson flame..."
What i'm trying to say... you can call both crimson flame, since they are the same, as i said earlier the frozen flame is part of lavos .... sorry for confusing things earlier ...
Now....well you say :
"And I should think that "Evolution" (Mind you, what happaned to the humans is more like a series of mutationes then evolution) only gave humans the ability to use magic. Lavos' Mammon.M, or as I suspect, the Frozen Flame, is what gave the humans magic."
As i said earlier, "...the "apes" (Ayla tribe or whatever) came into contact with the ""crimson flame"" (a.k.a. Frozen Flame, as u all know it is part of lavos... and all) and evolved..."".... what i meant was.... they use magic because they came in contact with the frozen flame.... well that's all.... but i maybe wrong, thx again for the time..... :)
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Hmmm.... lemme c .... u said, "...That one known as ""Lavos""! The GREAT Crimson flame..."
What i'm trying to say... you can call both crimson flame, since they are the same, as i said earlier the frozen flame is part of lavos .... sorry for confusing things earlier ...
Now....well you say :
"And I should think that "Evolution" (Mind you, what happaned to the humans is more like a series of mutationes then evolution) only gave humans the ability to use magic. Lavos' Mammon.M, or as I suspect, the Frozen Flame, is what gave the humans magic."
As i said earlier, "...the "apes" (Ayla tribe or whatever) came into contact with the ""crimson flame"" (a.k.a. Frozen Flame, as u all know it is part of lavos... and all) and evolved..."".... what i meant was.... they use magic because they came in contact with the frozen flame.... well that's all.... but i maybe wrong, thx again for the time..... :)
No, no, no! If that would be so, Crono and co would be able to use magic the moment you get them. They needed to have their magical powers awakened by Spekkio. The Frozen Flame only gave the potential for magic, like investing an hidden power in the evolving apes. The Frozen Flame\Spekkio were the ones to actaully reveal that potential.
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Even though humans couldn't use Magic-magic, it seems as though everyone is capable of using magically inclined abilities (Crono's Slash, Ayla's Tail Spin, etc).
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Crono's Slash and Ayla's Tail Whip are "Techs", Techiniques in fighting in other words. Magic comes later and becomes a Technique in fightning.
BTW, I believe that after Ayla, everyone had the power to use magic from contacting the Frozen Flame, and that their powers were not bound to it, so if Lavos or the Mammon Machine were destroyed, their powers would not die off.
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All in Zeal lose their magic. 'Cept for the royal family. Janus learned shadow spells, Schala, if she had any kind of magic, it would be Lightning\Heaven Magic, and Zeal... Yeah, she was in the BO, so I guess she had Lavos based magic... Intresting, though, how the battle Crono and co. had against Janus nullufied his magic. Back to the Zeal Royal family thing. Maybe they had some way to secure their magic? Dalton sure could.
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Meh, it seems to me that Schala would learn Shadow magic...Deversity and support abilities seem more like her than lightning/heavenly (not simply 'heaven') abilities...
Also, Slash and Tail Spin may not be Magic, but they are magically inclined. When used against enemies that only Magic can be used against, Shadows & Spekkio for instance, they work and deal damage. They aren't Magic like from Lavos and Spekkio, but they are magical. Not all regular Techs are.
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Man, you are nothing getting it... look, you forgot the ones who could use magic in zeal where destroyed, and everything wasrebuild by those who had lack of magic... that's why Crono and the others had their powers awakened by Spekkio..... cuz' they are not descendants of Schala or Janus ...got it ?!
That's what i can explain for now.... i can be wrong don't forget...
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I think you are a little off there...I mean, there are Zealian survivors as well as Earthbound in the end...So, where Crono & Co may not have descended from Queen Zeal or Schala (and especially not Janus), they probably have some Zealian blood running through their veins.
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Yeah, tha is what i meant... they for sure are not descendant from powerfull people, they are mostly descendent from earthbound ones... but for sure they got zealian blood.... Crono probably judging by luminaire... and in the end you see all marle descendants .... one of them was the earthbound chief ...so as you can see ... what i tried to say earlier was that they had their power awaked by spekkio 'cuz they descend the earthbound (at least most of them)....
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Umm, I don't think that the Zealian's lost their magic all of a sudden. I think it was slowly lost through the ages, but Lavos' corruption was still in their veins.
Like Spekkio said, Wizards abused the powers and then magic was banned and ceased to exist. I'm have to say that a few Zealians probably kept a bit of their powers, but it just wouldn't show much compared to Zeal and Schala.
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Man, you are nothing getting it... look, you forgot the ones who could use magic in zeal where destroyed, and everything wasrebuild by those who had lack of magic... that's why Crono and the others had their powers awakened by Spekkio..... cuz' they are not descendants of Schala or Janus ...got it ?!
That's what i can explain for now.... i can be wrong don't forget...
What I said is the Frozen Flame, in 3,000,000 BC gave that potential to EVERY human. In 12,000 BC some humans had their magic discovered, while other didn't. Meaning, it dosen't matter if they were desecndent of Zeal royalty or not. They can be descendent of the Earthbounds for as much as gentics care, they still have the gene for magic in them. It's just not active until detected and activated.
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Uhm, I don' t know if you can say for any certainty that Guardians are direct decendants of that Earthbound chief since the Guardian line started, what? In 1 AD? By then any number of people could have been in power...Or, since it just started around then, perhaps someone else took control over whoever was previously in power...
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No, i didn't mean guardians are descendant from the earthbound chief ...i said Marle is ... and i didn't said they are direct descendants ... ijust said, that in the end you are able to see marle descendants ...
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Back to the Zeal Royal family thing. Maybe they had some way to secure their magic? Dalton sure could.
Probably. The Blue Pyramid for example is obviously magical (Schala casts a same kind of blue pyramid on the 12,000 BC Gate to seal it), yet it existed from 12,000 BC to 1,000 AD. It must have had a power source.
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Not neccesserally. The Magic Door's dont really have a power source if they're as old as 12,000bc - 2400AD.
Could just be like a glass pyramid, or some kind of special metal, etc. Whatever it was, Marle's Pendant shut it down.
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Don't you find that wierd that those doors appear only in 12,000 BC and 2300 AD (not 2400), while in 600 AD and 1000AD all there was was those magical boxes?
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Don't you find that wierd that those doors appear only in 12,000 BC and 2300 AD (not 2400), while in 600 AD and 1000AD all there was was those magical boxes?
Belthasar built them, and hid powerful items for the ones who could open the doors, the champions who would defeat Lavos.
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Yea that's the only possibility, Good ol' Belthasar using is sanity to hide good item in domes...
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I can't see where you guys are tryin' to get.... from "who taught magic" to "opening magical doors" ? Well ..... i said my piece ... and Belthasar, well... i'm not so sure he sealed the itens inside that doors... don't forget they are in the future ... he don't spend all his time sealing doors.... i think he was researching and buildin' Epoch....
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He made the door that sealed the Epoch, so it is only common sense that he would have made the rest of the doors in the future.
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The question is... Why ? Why would he make a lot of doors that Schala's pendant could open ?It almost make sense ... but still...doesn't make sense at all.....i will think more about it and maybe tommorow ... i will explain...we should make a topic about it....
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Don't you find that wierd that those doors appear only in 12,000 BC and 2300 AD (not 2400), while in 600 AD and 1000AD all there was was those magical boxes?
Belthasar built them, and hid powerful items for the ones who could open the doors, the champions who would defeat Lavos.
Now that I think about it, Belthasar is such a pragmatical man. Instead of giving those powerful ressources to the dying humans who're menaced by monsters and mutants, he hides them for a chosen one. I thought he was like that only in CC, but it seems the end always justified the means for this guru of "reason".
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The question is... Why ? Why would he make a lot of doors that Schala's pendant could open ?It almost make sense ... but still...doesn't make sense at all.....i will think more about it and maybe tommorow ... i will explain...we should make a topic about it....
Why? Because something told him that there is the faint possibility someone might just see Lavos' destruction, so he sealed the doors, so the chosen one... The one who saw Zeal and the Broken Future could recieve all those wonderful items! The Epoch, in a way, was also one of those items.
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well that lower his chance of getting "saved" since someone from the future could have found these, trained itself fought the guardian get the seed than be super strong and save the future by goign back in time to get some friends like Crono and co.
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well that lower his chance of getting "saved" since someone from the future could have found these, trained itself fought the guardian get the seed than be super strong and save the future by goign back in time to get some friends like Crono and co.
Having happans fine, then. The future gets saved thanks to these items.
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Hmph...it is ridiculous, Belthasar built the epoch for himself...but he got nuts in the process.... why a guy in the middle of nowhere would think : "Oh better seal some itens in doors that schala pendant could open,'cuz someday might a hero from the past appear to save us all" ..... he was the sage of reason not a paranormal who sees the future ....
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Umm, Due to Game Evidence, you are wrong my friend.
In CC, he planned out the whole of Project Kid, a plan that would defy Fate and risk the whole time space continium to be destroyed. But as we can see, it was a sucess.
I do not think he continued building the Epoch for greedy reasons. I think his first thought was to make it to go back to Zeal and stop the Ocean Palace disaster from occuring.
But he got old and slowly was dying, so he left it to a hero, that would one day save the planet, as he repdicted. In the messages that he left, it seems that he was confindent that It would hapen one day.
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Yws i know, what i mean is ... his first intentions were not to leave it to chrono he wanted to go back in time and stop the queen (or do something ...) ....but as you said he got old... and left there with his "memories" in that Nu to anyperson who wanted to travel in time xD... in another hand, in CC the future was changed he build another Epoch and with Lucca he build cronopolis... Fate, Prometheus(probably part of robo xD) ...and the project kid....
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It probably came to them after years of evolving
Or possibly Lavos created it and it spread to certain humans
Or the Entity anyone...?
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Mammon Machine.
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Uh, not so sure this has been explained before, but from what I've read, I've heard the humans discovered the Frozen Flame in 3 000 000 B.C. So maybe when one comes in contact with that flame, they then gain their mystical powers.
Just a theory from a tiny noob. <3
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That's not really the subject of the thread. We are wondering how the Zealites teach magic to each other.
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Right. I knew that.
Well, uh, I go with the gurus theory. >_>; Who probably got in contact with the flame or whatever.
Plus there were scholars in the kingdom who may have got in contact with the flame and such.
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If anyone had come into contact with the Flame, it would've been Schala, as RD suggests. Otherwise we'd have one of the Guru's in charge of the pendant.
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The main person was Schala. Everyone else simply groupied around the Mammon Machine and felt the energy pass into them. But probably couldn't touch it without being shocked or hurt, but Schala could control it.
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It's not that it would hurt them (how else could they have built it) But more like only Schala can communicate it. That's a very important term to note. Communicate. Schala can't force it to do anything.
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Hmm...if Schala can only 'communicate' with this big and dangerous force, I sure hope the Zealians weren't surprised they're kingdom was blown to bits by essentially the same power.
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Well, Schala would have had to have been around it during it's building. Remember, anyone other than the arbiter is frozen by the flame. Maybe the Flame only became like that after Lavos was destroyed, I dunno.
I think the issue here is that Schala doesn't want to make the flame do anything for her. We know it grants wishes and power etc. I don't think she would use it for that, or to anyone else, thats even if she knew its secret.
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Remember, anyone other than the arbiter is frozen by the flame.
Er...that's only in the Dead Sea. Otherwise, they're simply locked out of the containment room.
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Remember, anyone other than the arbiter is frozen by the flame.
Er...that's only in the Dead Sea. Otherwise, they're simply locked out of the containment room.
Is it explained in the game why that's only in the dead sea? I don't get it then Oo
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It's not that it would hurt them (how else could they have built it) But more like only Schala can communicate it. That's a very important term to note. Communicate. Schala can't force it to do anything.
Well...not exactly. If you use it in those terms then Crono also can communicate with it.
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The Frozen Flame doesn't freeze people. It just doesn't "awaken" to their presence. I mean, the Chronopolis employees, the Dragon Gods, and Kid all kinda touch it without freezing up. The Dead Sea was different I think because it's a mishmash of dimensions, and Reality was basically trying to quarantine it.
Well...not exactly. If you use it in those terms then Crono also can communicate with it.
What do you mean?
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I'm not so sure anyone has actually "touched" the FF and lived to tell the tale, or at least walked away without being changed dramatically. Why else would Kid tell your party to not touch it? It shows that no one touches it. Then again, they say that Serge 'came into contact' with the FF 14 years ago...but 'come into contact' is kinda loose. Making a phone call with someone is considered 'coming into contact' with them, so I personally would assume Wazuki and Serge merely stumbled into the FF's chamber, and Serge got close enough to it for it to heal him and make him the Arbiter, while Wazuki took the punishment of being controlled by FATE...*shrug*
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You mean Harle warned Kid not to touch it. Kid, upon touching it, was lost in her memories. She possibly wished for Lucca to be alive, and caused her mind to be trapped in the past or something.
As for Harle, she then probably levitated the Flame and took it to Terra Tower. And there she... she... merged :'( WAAAAAAA. Poor Harle.
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The Frozen Flame doesn't freeze people. It just doesn't "awaken" to their presence. I mean, the Chronopolis employees, the Dragon Gods, and Kid all kinda touch it without freezing up. The Dead Sea was different I think because it's a mishmash of dimensions, and Reality was basically trying to quarantine it.
Well...not exactly. If you use it in those terms then Crono also can communicate with it.
What do you mean?
When the group first tries to get through the sealed door in Zeal Palace and fail the people around the Mammon Machine and the door say:
[Young Woman]
To open the door from outside, an item
like Schala's pendant is needed to
break the seal.
Y...your pendant!!
It looks just like Schala's!
I heard that when Schala communes
with the Mammon Machine, her
pendant starts to glow.
[Old Man]
That pendant...
It looks like Schala's.
When she chants to the Mammon
Machine, the pendant glows...
As if they were in union.
If it is true that the Frozen Flame is in/part of the Mammon Machine then Crono also "communicated" with the flame.
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It could be possible Crono was just using the energy left in the Pendant, I don't know.
You mean Harle warned Kid not to touch it. Kid, upon touching it, was lost in her memories. She possibly wished for Lucca to be alive, and caused her mind to be trapped in the past or something.
But Kid wasn't the Arbiter, was she? :P
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If it is true that the Frozen Flame is in/part of the Mammon Machine then Crono also "communicated" with the flame.
The Mammon Machine is made out of dreamstone. The Frozen Flame did not appear to be involved with anything in Chrono Trigger.
Also, Crono only got a power-up from the MM like everyone else. Schala was able to operate the MM to its full capacity.
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If it is true that the Frozen Flame is in/part of the Mammon Machine then Crono also "communicated" with the flame.
The Mammon Machine is made out of dreamstone. The Frozen Flame did not appear to be involved with anything in Chrono Trigger.
Also, Crono only got a power-up from the MM like everyone else. Schala was able to operate the MM to its full capacity.
That's what I assume, but there are some who believe that the Flame is inside the Mammon Machine for some reason.
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RD states that it as inside the Mammon Machine. And the FF can't just mysteriously appear in CC as if it just came to be. It obviousally had to be somewhere.
As for Kid, Possibly because she has Schala's DNA, maybe she can? But thats more of a Prometheus Lock thing, but then how could Dark Serge get near too lol.
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If you bring Kid to the Frozen Flame at Terra Tower, she says:
Kid:
An ancient magical kingdom...?
That you destroyed
ten thousand years ago...?
What are ya talkin' about?
Kid:
Stop it...
I don't know nothin'!
I'm...
I'm Kid!!
I'm myself and
nobody else!!
But we don't know for sure who is "you" though. Could be the Frozen Flame (inside the Mammon Machine?) or Lavos (at distance, from his pocket dimension?).
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An ancient magical kingdom...?
That you destroyed
ten thousand years ago...?
What are ya talkin' about?
Yea, I'm gonna bet it was Lavos.
RD states that it as inside the Mammon Machine. And the FF can't just mysteriously appear in CC as if it just came to be. It obviousally had to be somewhere.
As for Kid, Possibly because she has Schala's DNA, maybe she can? But thats more of a Prometheus Lock thing, but then how could Dark Serge get near too lol.
It's true, RD does state the Frozen Flame was in the Mammon Machine. Then again, RD says all kinds of untrue crap. And yea, the Frozen Flame can be totally distanced from humanity all this time. The Frozen Flame first emerged after Lavos' landing around 30,000,000 (or 3,000,000, I forget which) BC, and evolved humanity exponentially. For all we know, this could've been the beginning of Zeal, and that's where some people got the theory of the Frozen Flame having a connection with it.
It would make sense. Humanity is evolved by the Frozen Flame via Zeal, then Lavos pwnz0rs them and the Flame is lost beneath the sea until Belthasar and his 2400 crew find it. If it has no connection to Zeal, then we have a minor plothole of where it's been all this time and why humanity lost contact with it.[/b]
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If you bring Kid to the Frozen Flame at Terra Tower, she says:
Kid:
An ancient magical kingdom...?
That you destroyed
ten thousand years ago...?
What are ya talkin' about?
Kid:
Stop it...
I don't know nothin'!
I'm...
I'm Kid!!
I'm myself and
nobody else!!
But we don't know for sure who is "you" though. Could be the Frozen Flame (inside the Mammon Machine?) or Lavos (at distance, from his pocket dimension?).
Chrono Trigger shows Lavos coming out of the ground and destroying Zeal.
RD states that it is inside the Mammon Machine. And the FF can't just mysteriously appear in CC as if it just came to be. It obviousally had to be somewhere.
The text of Radical Dreamers does not actually state that the Frozen Flame was inside the Mammon Machine, although it is implied.
With its subtle, mysterious power, it allegedly could guide people and
change history, all while somehow remaining elusive to those who sought it,
or so I have heard.
"It was said to be a gem which soothes all scars, granting eternal life to its
owner...
...Or so people believed.
The Frozen Flame is more than just an object. It's not of this world.
It descended from the heavens long ago, part of a huge meteorite.
Once, there lived a people who sought to harness its power, hoping to tap into
their yet unknown potential. And so, it became a treasure of great importance
and dreams.
However, whether a gift which bestows power is actually a blessing or a curse, is another question altogether.
Since the birth of humanity, at least one entire race has fallen because of it.
These people once built a great thriving metropolis with its power, but now,
all knowledge of this era has been completely lost within the sands of time."
A faint feeling of distress comes across Magil's voice, throughout his speech.
"Hand over the Chrono Trigger, Kid. Little do you know, but that rock is
actually a tiny, condensed universe. When combined with the Frozen Flame, it
gains the power to bend space-time, allowing its owner to reshape history. This all could have never happened, if you merely wish it..."
The Frozen Flame in RD is similar to the version in CC, but they are separate objects. In appearance, the RD Flame is a red crystal, while the CC Flame is a segmented, many eyed, insect-like creature. The RD Flame had mysterious powers of its own, but it was not implicitly tied to Lavos. I don't think the CC Flame is tied to Zeal at all, because the Mammon Machine was sent to the DBT with Schala.
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Well, RD's flame was in the Mammon Machine. And since Schala communed with it and used it to absorb more of Lavos' energy ,then there is kind of a tie. The only thing here is that RD was made after Chrono Trigger, so most things that are implied in RD were basically there to give some light on what may have possibly been left out in CT.
As for the FF ontop of Terra Tower. I think it was actually Schala. Kid was talking to the flame, and from Schala's previous mental communion with the Flame to Wazuki, it is most probable that it was it. Remember how RD states that Schala blamed the destruction of Zeal on herself? Not to mention Kid then saying that she's Kid, and only herself. That kind of makes me think that Schala is trying to explain that Kid is her essentially, and wants her back.
As for the Mammon Machine and Schala, well the FF may have still escaped the machine before anything. It does kind of have it's way of getting around.
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For once, I agree with Zapar.
By the way, where is it stated that the Mammon Machine is absorbed into the DBT?
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By the way, where is it stated that the Mammon Machine is absorbed into the DBT?
Lucca states it on Opassa Beach.
As the palace collapsed around
her, Princess Schala was sucked
into a dimensional vortex along
with the Lavos Mammon Machine.
Schala and Lavos became unified
into one even more powerful
entity that would evolve into
the Devourer of Time.
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For once, I agree with Zapar.
By the way, where is it stated that the Mammon Machine is absorbed into the DBT?
I take that as a personal offence. We have agreed on other things countless times, you just don't like my fate idea and thats all.
As for the Mammon Machine, it doesn't actually say that the machine went to the DBT it could have been gated for all we know. And that quote doesn't make it seem as if the machine became a part of it. If it did, the Flame obviousally wasn't in it. Unless the flame in the future is the flame from the Lavos time line or something, and was unaffected.
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As for the Mammon Machine, it doesn't actually say that the machine went to the DBT it could have been gated for all we know. And that quote doesn't make it seem as if the machine became a part of it. If it did, the Flame obviousally wasn't in it. Unless the flame in the future is the flame from the Lavos time line or something, and was unaffected.
...did you actually read the quote? It's very clear that it got sucked into the same place Schala did. It's been discussed elsewhere in the Compendium that Queen Zeal either draws the MM out of the DBT to fight Crono and party, or send Crono and party there to fight it, thereby drawing them back out when they win. I'm leaning toward the first.
And yeah...the FF probably has nothing to do with the MM...the MM was constructed by the Gurus using Dreamstone. I don't consider anything in RD to matter outside of RD itself.
...we sure use alot of acronyms to describe Chrono stuff, don't we?
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...did you actually read the quote? It's very clear that it got sucked into the same place Schala did. It's been discussed elsewhere in the Compendium that Queen Zeal either draws the MM out of the DBT to fight Crono and party, or send Crono and party there to fight it, thereby drawing them back out when they win. I'm leaning toward the first.
I kind of feel that Zeal threw the party into another PD. That way, they could fight for all eternity. There would be just one MM in the DBT, right?
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I kind of feel that Zeal threw the party into another PD. That way, they could fight for all eternity. There would be just one MM in the DBT, right?
But then how would they leave again? Not like Zeal would want them to come out of the DBT, unless she was crazy enough to want to kill them instead of let them suffer forever in the DBT *shrug*
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I kind of feel that Zeal threw the party into another PD. That way, they could fight for all eternity. There would be just one MM in the DBT, right?
But then how would they leave again? Not like Zeal would want them to come out of the DBT, unless she was crazy enough to want to kill them instead of let them suffer forever in the DBT *shrug*
That's why I think the MM was in a PD.
My last post doesn't make much sense
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The only time the Mammon Machine is in the PD I believe is when you actually fight it. It's obviously not when you see it in Zeal, and I don't think it is during the Ocean palace events.
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In the Black Omen, the MM seems to be both in ruins in a normal room and intact (and colored grey, all of a sudden) in a pocket dimension though. It's strange.
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And yeah...the FF probably has nothing to do with the MM...the MM was constructed by the Gurus using Dreamstone. I don't consider anything in RD to matter outside of RD itself.
If you deny what RD's light has to offer on some issues, then you shouldn't even be here. RD is just as valuable and creditable information as CT and CC.
You obviousally haven't been paying attention to the links, have you? How Schala "communes" with the machine. How in RD, the Flame gave her a chance (obviousally this was a time when Crono and co didn't interfer). And even Belthasar talks about it, but it's a red shard. In RD, the FF is a shard too. I think it only looks like a rock in RD because of the graphics at the time.
As the palace collapsed around
her, Princess Schala was sucked
into a dimensional vortex along
with the Lavos Mammon Machine.
Schala and Lavos became unified
into one even more powerful
entity that would evolve into
the Devourer of Time.
It says nothing about the MM actually going to the DBT. When was sucked into the vortex, she actually entered a parallel timestream and on the way met Lavos, heard Serge etc. As for the Machine, it could have gone somewhere else, like lets say.. to the bottom of the ocean.
BTW, I think that that quote could possibly be about Schala in the original, Lavos timeline.
It fixes a few things. Like how the machine was still there with Zeal, even thought Schala was missing. I mean, we don't know what happened to Schala in the original time line, obviousally. So anything's open. I mean, Lucca only says that it happened 13,000 years ago, but she doesn't refer to what timeline, or to even Crono and co.'s interferance in Zeal. It could be possible that 1) Crono's Schala is the reincarnated Schala that we have in RD. 2) The Schala who is in the DBT is the Lavos timelines. 3) The Original Schala from Lavos' time line is the Kid who in 1020AD went back in time to do stuff (If Kid had to do it in 1020 after the events of CC, that cause a loop, so both Kids could be different) or 4) You tell me.
[/rant]
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The Mammom Machine being intact in the Pocket Dimension does interest me, but remember that Zeal said something along the lines of "Fighting within the Mammon Machine." Maybe they were fighting the essence of the Mammon Machine with their minds, like, they astrally projected into it because of Zeal's spell. I dunno.
If you deny what RD's light has to offer on some issues, then you shouldn't even be here. RD is just as valuable and creditable information as CT and CC.
...right. If there was any doubt in my mind. >_>
BTW, I think that that quote could possibly be about Schala in the original, Lavos timeline.
It fixes a few things. Like how the machine was still there with Zeal, even thought Schala was missing. I mean, we don't know what happened to Schala in the original time line, obviousally. So anything's open. I mean, Lucca only says that it happened 13,000 years ago, but she doesn't refer to what timeline, or to even Crono and co.'s interferance in Zeal. It could be possible that 1) Crono's Schala is the reincarnated Schala that we have in RD. 2) The Schala who is in the DBT is the Lavos timelines. 3) The Original Schala from Lavos' time line is the Kid who in 1020AD went back in time to do stuff (If Kid had to do it in 1020 after the events of CC, that cause a loop, so both Kids could be different) or 4) You tell me.
Hibbaflubbawhat?
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I dunno, was on a train of through.
O yeah, 4) should be dead Schala or something.
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Still not making any sense.
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I have a question, Spekkio states that magic once thrived in the past. how would he know that?
Nevermind, Gasper told him.
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Or...He couldve lived a long time ago.
Why not just delete the post?
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I have a question, Spekkio states that magic once thrived in the past. how would he know that?
Nevermind, Gasper told him.
Everybody standing in the End of Time can observe the time line.
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I have a question, Spekkio states that magic once thrived in the past. how would he know that?
Nevermind, Gasper told him.
Everybody standing in the End of Time can observe the time line.
I never remember that being stated. We couldn't see into the timeline from the End of Time. Gaspar may just know and tell Spekkio (he is the Guru of Time). I mean, Gaspar didn't even know that Crono died. Only when the group told him did he realise.
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Everybody standing in the End of Time can observe the time line.
I never remember that being stated. We couldn't see into the timeline from the End of Time. Gaspar may just know and tell Spekkio (he is the Guru of Time). I mean, Gaspar didn't even know that Crono died. Only when the group told him did he realise.
I think Gaspar is just playing it cool. Chrono Trigger implies he can see into the past.
However, you will not be alone. I
have had vague glimpses of events,
people and places that will empower
you...
I am sorry that I must simply
witness the coming spectacle from
my vantage point here...
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i think the rest left at the end of time also sees what the party is doing(otherwise how would char x know part y without being there? They told each other would be pretty poor...)
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- Schala
"Stop degrading yourselves!
We Enlightened Ones were once the
same as you.
The only difference is that we are
under Lavos's control..." (to a earthbound one)
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- Schala
"Stop degrading yourselves!
We Enlightened Ones were once the
same as you.
The only difference is that we are
under Lavos's control..." (to a earthbound one)
She meant it in the sence that they are using his magic, and are like into him as if he is a God. The person they're under the control of is Queen Zeal, since she's running the show.
But the Earthbound ones are only under her control when she sees fit, she doesn't like them.
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Very true. The Kingdom of Zeal is a bubble where people live, away from the cold, dying outside world. It's residences do nothing but dream and grow in power, while the people down on the land struggle for food. Queen Zeal is in fact the biggest dreamer, the one who lives most in the bubble. I'd bet she woulden't admit the Earthbounds even exist if she didn't have to. She lives in her own dream of insanity and power, and if she doesn't want anyone in the dream, he falls all the way down to the Ice Age.