Chrono Compendium
Enhasa Halls - Chrono Series Analysis => Magic, Elements, and Technology => Topic started by: Magus068 on December 16, 2006, 05:39:12 am
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Alchemy is a science where one understands the structure of matter, breaks it down & then rebuilds it. If used correctly, it can turn plain lead into gold. However, since it is science, principle of nature still apply. You can only create something of a certain mass from something with the same mass. It is the principle of equivalent trade.
-Prologue of the Fullmetal Alchemist
Have you ever consider that Melchior makes weapons without a smithy? If you look at his house you'll only find a study in his basement instead of a smithy. One possible explaination is that Melchior transmutes a certain object in to weapons instead of making or forging weapons. If you observe closely about the event the masamune is fix & the only material he use is a mug, a dreamstone & the broken parts of the Masamune. Lucca's action in fixing the Masamune seems like she's doing a ritual or enchantation proves my suspicion that they are not fixing the sword by normal means. Another example that Melchior uses alchemy when he transmute the ruby knife into Masamune.
Magus probably knew alchemy when he uses human transmutation on Glenn. As a side note magic only manipulates the forces of nature while alchemy breakdown matter & then rebuilds it.
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Neat theory, maybe that was a part of Zealian power?
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An alchemy twist is an interesting one. While I agree with Melchoir making the Masamune I still think Magus used magic on Glenn, but an interesting theory none the less.
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We must keep in mind that what we see Melchior and Lucca do is just the preliminary works though. Melchior says "Alright, let's get started" at the end of the scene, then the screen goes black and we jump directly to the moment when the repairing is finished. We don't see the actual repairing of the sword and how it is done. But of course, it's true that we don't see a smithy, a chimney, and those kind of things which should be needed, so... maybe.
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Except that FMA didn't exist at the time of CT's publishing and development, and even then Alchemy is being used improperly.
In the history of science, alchemy refers to both an early form of the investigation of nature and an early philosophical and spiritual discipline, both combining elements of chemistry, metallurgy, physics, medicine, astrology, semiotics, mysticism, spiritualism, and art.
The lack of a smithy or a chimney doesn't mean anything. There's also a lack of a bathroom, bedroom, a stove...
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True, but how do you explain fixing the Masamune without any facilities or equipment? Or a Knife transform into a sword?
Seriously alchemy of our world is different to the chronoverse.
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Magic, obviously. It does exist. Especially since the Masamune is made out of Dreamstone and has mystical qualities that allows it to break all sorts of physical laws.
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It doesn't break any laws of physics because magic is the Chrono World's idea of physics. They break what seem to be our laws in OUR WORLD, but not in theirs.
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Well duh, obviously.
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Magic, obviously. It does exist. Especially since the Masamune is made out of Dreamstone and has mystical qualities that allows it to break all sorts of physical laws.
Of course it's magic, alchemy is also a branch of sorcery. Anything is possible since the Chronoverse is the mixture of science & magic.
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Seems like it's just a question of terminology. According to your definition of alchemy, some things in the Chrono series could be qualified as alchemical technics, but according to the series, these are magic stuff.
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I'm not convince that those are mere magic stuff. Think about it... Any respectable Magic Scholars in Zeal would classify the magic that they studied otherwise their research in magic would be in chaos. Although there's no clear indication about it but the way they held their research caught my attention. For instance, every room in Kajar had different research that they conducted. This probably indicate that they studied various disciplines whether it is scientific or magical.
And another thing... There are lots magic that didn't belong to any 4 elements. This made me think that there are more classification of magic than we ever think.
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There's only four elements of Magic, but they can be combined in an infinite amount of combinations to reach any magical effect imaginable.
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Technically there are only 16 combinations not infinite but that theory doesn't explain which certain magic belongs to. For instance, Lavos' Dreamless, creation of the Masamune or the magic that causes the Zeal Kingdom to float.
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There can be more than 16 combinations if you consider S-S-W(S dominates by 1) being different from S-S-S-W-W. The chain could have an infinit length.
Dreamless is an magic attack, can't be absorbed(as far as I recall) by any of the 4 elements o.m. alone, yet can be reduced by Magic Wall. It must be at least the same amount of 2 opposites, like 2 shadow and 2 heaven, so it doesn't actually do Shadow/Heaven damage(which can be absorbed), but non-elemental-magic-damage(=|= non-elemental damage which is done by stuff like tailspin or popoyo dance).
Or whatever
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The four elements compose more than just magic though. In the CT universe, they compose EVERYTHING! Matter, energy, physical laws, the human soul, etc.
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The four elements compose more than just magic though. In the CT universe, they compose EVERYTHING! Matter, energy, physical laws, the human soul, etc.
Not the soul because Robo himself said that the Epoch was being powered by the sum of all human spiritual energy. So in that case, if what you're saying was true, all that you'd need would be like 4 people with different magics to power up the Epoch, but it's not like that.
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I don't think Robo's statement was scientifically literal, despite the existence of ghosts in the Chrono series...the Japanese version was more to the effect of "powered by / representing all human willpower."
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I don't think Robo's statement was scientifically literal, despite the existence of ghosts in the Chrono series...the Japanese version was more to the effect of "powered by / representing all human willpower."
Well that too wouldn't be made up of the 4 elements -- will power.
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The will power is created by humans, which ARE created by the four elements.
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The will power is created by humans, which ARE created by the four elements.
So? Lavos' energy comes from the planet, but you say it's not the same.
Will power has nothing to do with magic, it's a persons, it's like their soul, and the soul is most probably beyond just 4 elements.
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Magic needs power of the heart.
It needs inner strength.
Magic is divided into 4 types:
Lightning, Fire, Water, & Shadow.
SPEKKIO: Not just magic, but
EVERYTHING is based on the balance
of these 4 powers.
Spekkio = fact.
Zaperking = pure speculation.
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So? Lavos' energy comes from the planet, but you say it's not the same.
When did I say that? I said that Lavos's energy was different from the Elements of CC, but not the elements of the entire universe.
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Magic needs power of the heart.
It needs inner strength.
Magic is divided into 4 types:
Lightning, Fire, Water, & Shadow.
SPEKKIO: Not just magic, but
EVERYTHING is based on the balance
of these 4 powers.
Spekkio = fact.
Zaperking = pure speculation.
It doesn't say if it's everything physical, or spiritual. Heck, the DBT is all darkness. So pretty much Shadow. And who the hell knows WTF the Sea of Zurvan is like.
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It doesn't say if it's everything physical, or spiritual.
It says it's everything. Simply, everything.
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Isn't that the DBT is a place of eternal nothingness where not even a speck of dust exist? If so, DBT doesn't have any elemental dominance.
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Not quite. It's an archive for deleted timelines, and those timelines are made of the four elements.
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Let me rephrase my question... How could any element exist if there's nothing there to begin with? How could a dimension or universe exist without anything at all? I like to point out that there's a paradox that Spekkio stated. Endless void= No element.
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Let me rephrase my question... How could any element exist if there's nothing there to begin with? How could a dimension or universe exist without anything at all? I like to point out that there's a paradox that Spekkio stated. Endless void= No element.
This is a metaphysical question. Chrono Trigger's purpose isn't to resolve such a question.
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I guess you could solve it with the fact that nothing exists in a void, and the four elements compose everything that exists.
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Perhaps the reason that DBT exist maybe of the presence of the Time Devourer in that place & through it the four elements manifest through him.
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Yes, but it seems the Darkness Beyond Time has existed as long as there has been time travel. The Time Devourer was a fairly "New" occurance.
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Not exactly... Time doesn't exist in DBT since that there's no beginning or end.
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Yes, but it's EXISTED ever since Time Travel. The DBT exists as a repository for deleted and/or obsolete timelines. That's what it is.
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If what you say is true then why is it that the DBT is nothing but an empty space? If it is indeed a repository for deleted and/or obsolete timelines then surely there a trace of those timelines in DBT.
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Because they're stored as mere information there. Not like it matters, it says right there in the game what the DBT is.
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It seems that I overlook it...
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Coming back to the topic in relation to the elements, "everything", Spekkio and the sort.....
Very rarely does "everything" ever mean "everything" literally. For example, when you say you want "everything", you cannot want happiness and want sadness, let alone want to have one thing and want two things at the same time. Whenever the word "everything" is used, you cannot assume every single tangible and intangible object or subject is being included. When Spekkio says Everything is based on the four elements in Chrono Trigger, he was not meant to be talking in relation to willpower and whatnot. Even in the slim chance that those WERE meant to be included, it does not mean elements are the only deciding factors for which willpower etc occur.
Also, with the point on different magic being made up of different chains of "S,S,W", etc... I don't think it can be simplified to be so easy to understand if we are talking about the understanding of the Chrono Trigger world, of course you may say so if it were based on the "video game" sense, but I see magic more as a infinite scale on which "elements" (out of lightning, water, ice and shadow) have variable strengths, assuming that magic is purely based on these four elements as Spekkio said.
If you understand what I mean, please help me clarify my ideas, or if you don't, you might as well question my ideals.