Chrono Compendium

Enhasa Halls - Chrono Series Analysis => Time, Space, and Dimensions => Topic started by: Saruiuz on December 05, 2006, 02:44:57 pm

Title: Cause of the Dimensional Split
Post by: Saruiuz on December 05, 2006, 02:44:57 pm
Ok, I'm relatively new to this site, and this is my first time posting in the forums, but I've read through most of the encyclopedia. I just recently replayed through Chrono Cross, and something bugged me.

When did the dimensional split happen, and what exactly caused it? There may not be enough information to determine the cause, but we should at least know when it happened. I ask because it seems like there is a general consensus on this site that the split happened in 1010 A.D. when Kid went back and saved Serge from drowning. This quote, though, is from Lucca on Opassa Beach before the battle with the Time Devourer:

Quote from: Lucca
As Schala fell through the
   time gate in this condition,
   she heard your crying
   echoing through time...
   That is when her story and
   yours began to intertwine...
   It is also when the past and
   the future began to intersect,
   and when the world became
   divided into two...

   Led by the pitiful crying
   the young Serge made as
   the panther demon's poison
   took hold of him...
   Princess Schala traveled ten
   thousand years in time to try
   and make contact with this
   dimension!


Based on that quote, it seems like she could have been referring to the split happening either in 1006 A.D., or, as I had assumed the first time I played through the game, in 12000 B.C. In other words, the split may have been caused by Crono's group's meddling in the events of the Ocean Palace, since that is what eventually caused Schala to be sent to the DBT and merge with Lavos. Of course, the rest of both worlds would have continued on the same or similarly anyway, up until the years prior to the events of Chrono Cross, since until that time this event probably would not have had a significant impact on it. The main difference would have been the existence of Chronopolis and Dinopolis in one of the worlds, but as we know, the Records of FATE were used to prevent contact with the mainland up until the Home World ones stop receiving information from Chronopolis. Note that this would also explain why Chronopolis is shown to have been influencing both worlds prior to 1010 A.D.

Obviously, this all falls apart if there is some kind of concrete evidence that he split happened in the year 1010 A.D., but the closest thing to evidence relating to the exact date I could find was the quote I posted above, and that implies that it did not happen that year. Is there something I missed?
Title: Re: Cause of the Dimensional Split
Post by: Chrono'99 on December 05, 2006, 04:27:55 pm
Welcome :)

I think the main (if not the only) evidence of the split having happened in 1,010 A.D. is this quote by Belthasar:

Quote
Prophet:
   Serge... This world is not
   the world you grew up in.
   10 years ago, something
   happened that put your very
   soul teetering on the
   balancing scales of fate...
   with a fifty-fifty chance
   of life or death!
   This is when your future
   was split in twain.

Prophet:
   In your home world, you
   survived to live a happy
   and prosperous life.
   That is how you made it to
   the present point in time.
   However, here in this
   '"alternate"' world,
   you are, in fact,
   very dead and buried.
   You died 10 years ago, but
   this world's time line has
   flowed on regardless.
   You have no place in this world...
   Here, you are but a ghost
   brought back from the past!

Prophet:
   I do not know what
   happened 10 years ago...
   Nor can I guess what
   triggered your entrance
   into this world.

Belthasar states this near the beginning of the game though, so it may be possible that he lied like he does later in the story (and even right here, when he says he "doesn't know what happened 10 years ago"). If he's not outright lying, he could still be blurring the truth by making things ambiguous (perhaps the split he speaks of is only about Serge's destiny, not the whole dimension's integrity). There seem to be more evidence of the dimension having been split before this date, as one of the Chronopolis ghost says that FATE had watched over the two dimensions before Serge caused the Dead Sea's formation, which made FATE unable to control Home World. This is discussed a bit in the Chrono Cross Plot-Hole topic, but I don't think a clear solution has been found (unlike the dates 7,600 B.C. and Lavos' defeat in 1,999 A.D., the two other "mistakes" of the Compendium).

Edit: You can find the plot-hole thread here (http://www.chronocompendium.com/Forums/index.php?topic=3498.msg61929#msg61929).
Title: Re: Cause of the Dimensional Split
Post by: ZeaLitY on December 05, 2006, 08:59:48 pm
At the CT/RD/CC/CB topic an OCReMix (the spring / summer 2003 thread which gave birth to the site), we eventually decided that sticking it at 1010 A.D. is the easiest and most logical way to go, a premise confirmed by later temporal discussion. For instance, we'd have the problem of two Darkness Beyond Times, two Kids being sent to the world, the Dead Sea's ten year old existence; things like that. We have less problems than if we had gone the other route. Nonetheless, there just isn't agreement between Chronopolis and everything else. It was some kind of oversight probably; I know from CE how massive these systems of internal logic can get.
Title: Re: Cause of the Dimensional Split
Post by: Zaperking on December 06, 2006, 09:06:23 pm
You can't have two darkness beyond times if they're outside of time =.=
Title: Re: Cause of the Dimensional Split
Post by: ZeaLitY on December 06, 2006, 11:56:11 pm
Yes, that's why 1010 A.D. is the most attractive.
Title: Re: Cause of the Dimensional Split
Post by: Zaperking on December 07, 2006, 02:19:28 am
Yes, that's why 1010 A.D. is the most attractive.

But I'm saying how could you have two if you can't have two because they're not even directly connected to the timeline to even be doubled.
Title: Re: Cause of the Dimensional Split
Post by: ZeaLitY on December 07, 2006, 10:42:37 am
Because you'd need two for two copies of Kid to come in if the split occurred before 100...4, 6, whatever A.D.
Title: Re: Cause of the Dimensional Split
Post by: Saruiuz on December 07, 2006, 04:10:02 pm
Forgive me if I'm wrong, but the fact that there is two Kids seems like the only really hard to explain problem with the split not happening in 1010. In fact, if there is only one DBT, then isn't it conceivable that a Kid appeared on the planet in every dimension at the same time? I know this seems maybe a little crazy . . . but crazy ideas are what I do best, and is there any reason it couldn't have happened?

I only press the issue because I still can't understand Lucca's quote on Opassa Beach in any other way, and that seems like the only concrete evidence we have one way or the other.
Title: Re: Cause of the Dimensional Split
Post by: ZeaLitY on December 07, 2006, 05:42:31 pm
It complicates Chronopolis as well. If there's only one Chronopolis traveling back through time to 7600 B.C., a split any earlier than that (a totally retroactive split, even) means that Home World wouldn't get a Chronopolis, which wouldn't explain why the Dead Sea did not exist in that dimension (or to its inhabitants, who don't know about the split in 1010 A.D.). The dimensions would have to be split in Keystone T-1 for this to work, and Belthasar would have to coordinate two Chronopolises going back in time in two different dimensions. It gets crazy.
Title: Re: Cause of the Dimensional Split
Post by: Dark Serge on December 14, 2006, 06:55:11 am
the dimensional split happened in 1010 a.d. when Kid saved serge from drowning. Afterwards, Kid called serge to another world.
Title: Re: Cause of the Dimensional Split
Post by: Chrono'99 on December 14, 2006, 12:18:20 pm
the dimensional split happened in 1010 a.d. when Kid saved serge from drowning. Afterwards, Kid called serge to another world.

That's a rather peremptory answer. How do you explain that FATE used to be able to intervene in Home World, if Home World was created only when FATE became unable to access it?
Title: Re: Cause of the Dimensional Split
Post by: Dark Serge on December 14, 2006, 12:39:59 pm
FATE didn't. The world FATE intervened in has always been Another World, only from the moment Kid saved Serge, Home World was created, a world where FATE could never intervene.
Title: Re: Cause of the Dimensional Split
Post by: Chrono'99 on December 14, 2006, 01:16:28 pm
This quote from a Chronopolis ghost shows that FATE used to be able to give instructions to both worlds:

Quote
   An instruction to the young girl
   in Arni 01 to give up going to
   the main continent as a poet.
   An instruction to the man in
   Arni 02 to give up becoming
   a fisherman.
   A plan to avoid any point of
   contact with the main continent,
   so as not to affect history.

Then the ghost proceeds with this quote:

Quote
   However...
   Ever since the formation of
   the Dead Sea 10 years ago...
   FATE has been unable to intervene
   directly with World 01.
   The best FATE could do was cross
   the dimension and receive data
   through the Records of Fate.
   And with much difficulty, FATE
   succeeded in binding Miguel
   to the Dead Sea as a watchman...

If FATE became unable to intervene directly with World 01 (Home), this means in all logics that there was a time in which she was able to intervene with it.
Title: Re: Cause of the Dimensional Split
Post by: Dark Serge on December 14, 2006, 01:40:06 pm
That's kind of weird actually because:

Home World is like FATE's nightmare: Serge lives, Lynx disappears, and thus FATE can never access the Frozen Flame again.
So why would FATE bother with that world?

But fact is that the dimension did split in two when Serge was saved, even Belthasar says it (when you first met him I think).

Maybe it's just a major plothole, FATE wasn't meant to ever have controlled Home World.
When the dimensions split in two Home World was created, a world FATE could not directly intervene with indeed, because Serge lives and Lynx is gone.
Title: Re: Cause of the Dimensional Split
Post by: Chrono'99 on May 05, 2007, 05:59:53 am
What if... the Sea of Eden's Chronopolis were not the original Chronopolis (from Keystone T-1) but a slightly different one, one from Keystone T-2/Another World's future? After all, this is what the Sea of Eden is supposed to be, a patch of space representing the future. The Dead Sea represents Home World's future, so shouldn't the Sea of Eden represent Another World's future instead of the former Keystone T-1's? Since Keystone T-2 encompasses two dimensions, the Chronopolis built in Another World would have been aware of a Home World existing next to their dimension.

Arg, this would only explain how Chronopolis can watch Home World though. It wouldn't explain how they could have controlled Home World before it even existed...
Title: Re: Cause of the Dimensional Split
Post by: Kyronea on May 05, 2007, 06:24:09 am
What if... the Sea of Eden's Chronopolis were not the original Chronopolis (from Keystone T-1) but a slightly different one, one from Keystone T-2/Another World's future? After all, this is what the Sea of Eden is supposed to be, a patch of space representing the future. The Dead Sea represents Home World's future, so shouldn't the Sea of Eden represent Another World's future instead of the former Keystone T-1's? Since Keystone T-2 encompasses two dimensions, the Chronopolis built in Another World would have been aware of a Home World existing next to their dimension.

Arg, this would only explain how Chronopolis can watch Home World though. It wouldn't explain how they could have controlled Home World before it even existed...
Yes it does. It's quite simple really...we know that Home World is essentially a separate universe, albiet only partially disconected from Another World due to the odd circumstances. Now, is it not possible that the history would be the same and Chronopolis would be altered to monitor both realities, possibly by working with its alternate Home World self up until the moment of Serge's death/rescue and the Dead Sea comes into existence? We know Belthasar built Chronopolis and planned the dimensional split from the start, so why wouldn't he create a method to control both realities?
Title: Re: Cause of the Dimensional Split
Post by: Chrono'99 on May 05, 2007, 07:04:42 am
But Home World is supposed to be created in 1,010 AD only, while the Chronopolis ghost implies that FATE had been controlling Home World before 1,010 AD, i.e. before the dimension even existed. A possible solution would be to imagine that the dimensional split was retroactive (that the time before 1,010 AD also split), but it's difficult to reconcile with all the temporal problems it would create. The Dead Sea in Home World would exist since, er, the beginning of time? instead of 1,010 AD.
Title: Re: Cause of the Dimensional Split
Post by: Kyronea on May 05, 2007, 07:16:35 am
But Home World is supposed to be created in 1,010 AD only, while the Chronopolis ghost implies that FATE had been controlling Home World before 1,010 AD, i.e. before the dimension even existed. A possible solution would be to imagine that the dimensional split was retroactive (that the time before 1,010 AD also split), but it's difficult to reconcile with all the temporal problems it would create. The Dead Sea in Home World would exist since, er, the beginning of time? instead of 1,010 AD.
Aye, that is a difficulty...

Okay. We know at least a few dimensions other than Home World and Another World exist, such as the Radical Dreamers Dimension, and the Reptite Dimension. This implies that at least some form of the Multi-Worlds theory is in effect in the Chronoverse. Now, one interpretation of the Many Worlds theory states that all possibilities that can happen, do happen, in different realities and that these have already happened/will happen regardless of temporal activity. As such, it is possible that Home World as a possible reality existed  but was only connected to Another World via the Dimensional Split event...think of it as the possibility created by the dimensional split taking over the reality that already existed rather than truly creating another one, almost as if the possibility were naught but a shadow enveloping what was already there.

So, as such, we could see Chronopolis interfering with Home World before 1010 A.D. without causing temporal problems. Again, I point out that Belthasar intended the dimensional split and would thusly plan Chronopolis accordingly so it could affect both realities as necessary.

That's all I can offer other than retroactive dimensional splitting.
Title: Re: Cause of the Dimensional Split
Post by: ZeaLitY on May 05, 2007, 06:01:31 pm
Well, just going from Chrono'99's statement...we think that the Sea of Eden represents what is ten thousand years in the future. Right after the Time Crash, we have Chronopolis from Keystone T-1 and Dinopolis. Wait...ugh, this is impossible. Things in the Chrono series do not happen via possibility. Chronopolis wouldn't change constantly depending on the state of the world taken as one tangent to the future at any time...

I mean, from 1006 A.D. to 1020 A.D., a lot of things have happened in both worlds. Porre has continued its expansion and El Nido's own politics have changed. Surely these have repercussions in the future, but Chronopolis's structure and design is completely unchanged. So we know that any changes to the future don't have an effect, which means...Chronopolis must be physically there. This leads me to believe that GrayLensman's Gate Effect may not be a solid dome, but simply a dome-shaped barrier. Imagine the black dome seen in the Time Crash cut scene as ultimately affecting only the border of the Sea of Eden in a dome-shape, with everything inside still retaining its physical properties. The Chronopolis inside would be a relic of Keystone T-1.

But that doesn't explain why the future turns to ruin in Home World as stated to be an action of Lavos's destruction. Even if the world were destroyed, the physical existence of the Sea of Eden would still be a residue of Keystone T-1 11020 A.D., containing Chronopolis from that timeline under this framework. The only way to resolve the Dead Sea's existence is to invoke the idea of one Time Crash >>> one Chronopolis, with perhaps some kind of deus ex machina regarding the Gate Effect any how there wouldn't be a Chronopolis in Home World. But this still has nothing to do with Lavos. The future is stated to be destroyed.

So it's like we have options:


It sounds like a plot inconsistency to me.
Title: Re: Cause of the Dimensional Split
Post by: Kyronea on May 05, 2007, 07:46:41 pm
Which is why the only thing I can think of until we hear from Kato is that Home World--the possibilities of it, at least--already existed as its own separate universe and when the Dimensional Split event occurred, the two universes were then linked together in some intertwined fashion. We know Chronopolis can interact or at least observe other universes without having the connections that Home and Another showed, as they do have data on at least the Radical Dreamers universe, and they do show themselves interacting with Home World prior to the Dimensional Split.

The key to all of this is the Time Crash. What occurred during the Time Crash? What effect did it have on the myriad timelines and universes? We know it involved the Frozen Flame, which is essentially concentrated and minaturized Lavos, so we know that it had a similiar effect on time that Lavos himself would be capable of having. We also know that the Planet freely mucks with time, as evidenced by the Gates in Trigger and Dinopolis in Cross. Further, we do have evidence of prior spacetime manipulation by Lavos, such as the large Gate in Magus' Castle, and of course his Pocket Dimension.

That's got to be it. Somehow Lavos himself screws with time somewhere in a manner not dissimiliar to that of the Planet's own tampering in Trigger. Lavos screws with time and as a result we have our odd temporal soup that eventually results in the Dead Sea.

All I can say is that we know Belthesar intended the Dimensional Split, so FATE and Chronopolis would be required to tamper with Home and Another. As such, the only way I see this working is if Home already existed as a separate universe and was just connected by the Dimensional Split event, or Lavos mucked with the timeline and caused the future of Home World in his own way in some fashion not unlike the Planet's meddling in Trigger.
Title: Re: Cause of the Dimensional Split
Post by: ZeaLitY on May 05, 2007, 07:53:19 pm
The issue is the rigidity of dimensions. There may be infinite dimensions, but Serge can only visit two because a.) he's the Missing Piece b.) Belthasar somehow figured out how to split a dimension. Everything canonical refers to the dimensions as a split; as if Home World took off on its own like "Biff's Bad 1985". We've got no other instance of dimensional crossing save Dinopolis's entry to the Keystone Dimension, and that was done by the planet. Due to the language's calling it a split and the extreme importance of the link between Another and Home as a conduit between traveling and monitoring both, the idea that Home World existed before -- and that Chronopolis could monitor it before Serge would even bridge the gap -- is hard to fathom. And it is difficult to think about Belthasar even "splitting it beforehand" or having it exist prior when all his planning and actions were presumably done in Keystone T-1, before any of this ever happened.
Title: Re: Cause of the Dimensional Split
Post by: Kyronea on May 05, 2007, 07:58:33 pm
Aye, I know it's a longshot theory, but then how do we explain Chronopolis interfering in Home World before 1010 A.D.? While Belthesar may have had the equipment prepared and ready to go, the Dead Sea would make it impossible for Chronopolis to interfere with Home World, unless there was a short time where two Chronopolis facilities existed...but no, that makes no sense, because that would imply some other action other than the Dimensional Split itself caused the ruined future.

So all I can tell you is retroactive splitting. What problems that might create, I don't entirely know...let's go ahead and start listing them and examine the theory itself as closely as possible before dismissing it, just in case we actually are onto something.
Title: Re: Cause of the Dimensional Split
Post by: Zaperking on May 06, 2007, 01:53:21 am
Well, Chronopolis could have been monitoring home world all along.. Because Home World was the original dimension....

As for other dimensions, the game makes it seem like there are.

Chronopolis has more than 4 images of Lavos, and it is stated that FATE discovered them only by tracing Lavos in other parallel worlds. So it's not hard to fathom that others exist aswell.
And then again, we also see Schala coming into our world, and even stating that she'd meet someone in a new "reality" aka a new dimension.
Title: Re: Cause of the Dimensional Split
Post by: Kyronea on May 06, 2007, 03:46:06 am
Well, Chronopolis could have been monitoring home world all along.. Because Home World was the original dimension....
...no. No it wasn't. Another World was the original dimension.
Quote
As for other dimensions, the game makes it seem like there are.
They are...what?
Quote
Chronopolis has more than 4 images of Lavos, and it is stated that FATE discovered them only by tracing Lavos in other parallel worlds. So it's not hard to fathom that others exist aswell.
Exactly.
Quote
And then again, we also see Schala coming into our world, and even stating that she'd meet someone in a new "reality" aka a new dimension.
Extremely debateable. Sure, it LOOKS like our world--or at least some version of it--but we don't know it truly is our world. It could be the Chrono world in, say, 1607, given their pace of technology, or some other random world somewhere out there amongst fiction. We have no idea what was going on there...on that same token I do agree that it is Schala and I do agree that she ended up in another dimension.
Title: Re: Cause of the Dimensional Split
Post by: Chrono'99 on May 06, 2007, 04:40:32 am
And then again, we also see Schala coming into our world, and even stating that she'd meet someone in a new "reality" aka a new dimension.

We don't really know if it's our world. It is as likely to be our world as this Schala Kid is likely to be a Japanese actress employed by Square.
Title: Re: Cause of the Dimensional Split
Post by: Zaperking on May 06, 2007, 06:50:32 am
And then again, we also see Schala coming into our world, and even stating that she'd meet someone in a new "reality" aka a new dimension.

We don't really know if it's our world. It is as likely to be our world as this Schala Kid is likely to be a Japanese actress employed by Square.

I'm pretty sure that they wouldn't show the scene in modern day Tokyo without some sort of artistic, plot motif behind it.
The whole idea that Schala went to our world reinforces what she wrote, that she would search for Serge in any time, in any place, until she find him. And hence, she ends up looking in our world too.

Oh and for the matter, CT people dont' tend to wear stuff like that, nor do they have railways (as visible from the world map).
Title: Re: Cause of the Dimensional Split
Post by: Kyronea on May 06, 2007, 07:02:53 am

Oh and for the matter, CT people dont' tend to wear stuff like that, nor do they have railways (as visible from the world map).
Irrelevant. We have no way of knowing the exact technological capabilities or the culture of the Chronoverse people at any point in their history not seen in the eras shown, which cover a massive amount of time, including time where they would be technologically equal to our own world(while 1999 A.D. is obviously superior.)
Title: Re: Cause of the Dimensional Split
Post by: ZeaLitY on May 06, 2007, 03:51:35 pm
Perhaps this is related to the state of Chronopolis's inhabitants.


I've always wondered why. But at any rate, it looks like specific labs are maintained at 1020 A.D.'s level of time, or that some Chronopolis ghosts are still around to watch FATE carry out its directives to minimize historical interference. To keep them like this, it makes me think that FATE, or Belthasar, would have to purposely make changes to Chronopolis...or at least do SOMETHING to make sure these labs are staffed by up to date ghosts. But I guess this does nothing to explain why the actual architecture of Chronopolis supports the viewing and changing of both worlds.

I thought about Kyronea's idea again -- that Home World already existed as a separate dimension, and that Serge's crossing into it sort of...what, activated it? Well, all the problems aside, we'd still have a non existent Chronopolis in this Home World because its future, regardless of whether Another's Serge comes in and replaces Home's in 1010 A.D., is ruined. So I guess that's out, even though the data on the Radical Dreamers dimension could be construed as support.

~

Oh, and by the way, big dialogue inconsistency:

Quote
[Ghost]
   The experiment should
   be starting soon.
   After we discovered an unusual
   gravitational field in this
   barren sea of El Nido we built
   several artificial islands and
   established Chronopolis.
   This was all done to facilitate
   our top secret research.
   But now, our research is
   about to come to its end.
   Once the final adjustments
   are made, the experiment will
   commence.
   It's just a matter of time...
   so everyone should keep up
   their good work!

Quote
[Ghost]
   You're from Medina, right?
   I've been on this island
   for a year and a half now.
   Man, I've had enough.
   Aside from the man-made island
   with this research center,
   there isn't a single island
   in the sea of El Nido.

The presence of this dialogue problem and the one involving the date of the Acacia Dragoons' trip to the Dead Sea, you could almost peg this Chronopolis thing as a third innocent dialogue mishap. But the two huge screens in Chronopolis cannot be ignored. Someone planned for those to exist, and they are consistent with the ghost's dialogue about observing both worlds. So we couldn't simply excuse this one...

Maybe...if the split is retroactive, what if Time Traveler's Immunity is preserved / copied? We know it is with Lavos. If it's preserved, then we don't have to worry about one Kid coming in to two dimensions in 1004 A.D.

I was going to say, perhaps as soon as the split happened in 1010 A.D., the future was changed and history reflowed from 12000 B.C. forward with a Chronopolis now aware of both dimensions in existence. But a retroactive split still doesn't explain Home World. If it is truly retroactive under this idea of TTI being preserved, we've got


So here's my last contribution. Maybe as a...simple fix, perhaps the Gate Effect surrounding the Sea of Eden had something to do with it. Home World is always fated to destruction, but somehow, might the Gate Effect preserve the illusion that it is there until 1010 A.D.? Or perhaps, would the Gate Effect somehow link with Another World, since there are dimensional distortions in the Sea of Eden -- that is, link to Anothe World until 1010 A.D., and then reveal the true Dead Sea?

Well, that's all a bunch of top-level analysis framework, but I guess there's a fundamental problem. Even if Chronopolis's history reflowed through a world in which two dimensions exist, how would it know about Home World, and why would it implement that Record of FATE laboratory before El Nido even exists? We'd have to say that the plan to populate it was around even before the Time Crash, and that's completely untrue. So I guess we're stuck unless we attribute the creation of that lab to Belthasar to give the impression that FATE was controlling both worlds. That doesn't explain why the researchers think the opposite, unless we take our "reflowed" example with this Belthasar intent to mean that the researchers really did control a retroactive Home World with TTI intact from 12000 B.C. onward.
Title: Re: Cause of the Dimensional Split
Post by: Mr. Molecule on May 08, 2007, 06:31:50 pm
Guys, isn't Cross ALREADY complicated enough?

The only thing that will convince me of a pre-1010 split is hard evidence of a difference between Home and Another world caused before 1010. After all, so much in the game points to the time split occuring then--from Belthasar's original explanation to the fact that Serge is THE missing piece.

Let's examine the evidence otherwise: Lucca's quote, about the dimensions spitting when Schala heard Serge's cry, could be taken as merely stating when the cause that would result in the effect of the dimensions splitting would occur. That is, she could be saying, in a somewhat garbled fashioned, that it all began when Schala heard serge's cry, travel 10,000 years forward in time, then cloned herself, and this clone eventually travelled back in time, saved serge, and cause a dimensional split. In any case, Saruiuz's case that the dimensions split early and that Chronopolis and Dinopolis existed in only one dimensions is clearly false, as Chronopolis is a prerequisite for El Nido to exist.

This quote from a Chronopolis ghost shows that FATE used to be able to give instructions to both worlds:

Quote
   An instruction to the young girl
   in Arni 01 to give up going to
   the main continent as a poet.
   An instruction to the man in
   Arni 02 to give up becoming
   a fisherman.
   A plan to avoid any point of
   contact with the main continent,
   so as not to affect history.

Then the ghost proceeds with this quote:

Quote
   However...
   Ever since the formation of
   the Dead Sea 10 years ago...
   FATE has been unable to intervene
   directly with World 01.
   The best FATE could do was cross
   the dimension and receive data
   through the Records of Fate.
   And with much difficulty, FATE
   succeeded in binding Miguel
   to the Dead Sea as a watchman...

If FATE became unable to intervene directly with World 01 (Home), this means in all logics that there was a time in which she was able to intervene with it.

The first quote doesn't actually prove anything about Home World, since both poet and the fisherman gave up their respective dreams only in Another World. The Arni01 and Arni02 designations are either spatial and relate to the character's residence in Arni, or they're inconsistencies. Or, they sent the poet's instruction to Arni in Home World, but it wasn't heeded. While the second quote implies the prior existence of 2 worlds prior to 1010, it doesn't state it. I think we have some wriggle room. "The formation of the Dead Sea" could refer to the dimensional split, since that would be the most immediately noticable dimensional change to the Chronopolitians, and therefore what they would define it by.  Also, if Arni01 and Arni02 are are spatial designations, it's possible that Another World is World00 and Home is World01, further emphasizing that it's a spin-off of the main timeline.

The screens Zeality mentions don't seem like a big deal to me. The ghost have had ten years to set up a monitoring system for Home World. They can obviously maintain/change the areas--they've been functioning for millenia, and it was originally converted from a time research station.
Title: Re: Cause of the Dimensional Split
Post by: ZeaLitY on May 12, 2007, 09:58:15 pm
I just don't know. The language uses "ever since", which implies that in the absence of something qualifying like "ever since the creation of the new world, we've been unable to control it"....the English seems to suggest that World 01 was recognized and controlled beforehand. And I mean, to have those monitors there, and the whole map...Chronopolis would have to be able to freely build and shape itself. FATE can reshape biological matter, but at this point, the monitors seem moot because of the glaring dialogue problem. They both qualify the overall larger inconsistency.

At this point, my last ditch explanation is that Belthasar knew the dimensions would split and created the monitoring room ahead of time. TTI was preserved, and Chronopolis's history flowed back up through Home World with the Gate Effect preserving Another's TTI and through the dimensional distortions, basically proxying Another World's Chronopolis right there in Home. Belthasar's motive would be to have Chronopolis control Home because in a retroactive split, no FATE would mean no directives for the villagers to...wait, this is ridiculous! If the split were retroactive, it'd be the exact opposite of flow principle unless a carbon copy were made...and then if you left Another's Chronopolis, would you end up in Home or Another? But perhaps...oh, this is so convoluted! There are Records of FATE in Home World because there WERE Records of FATE in the Keystone Dimension before it split.

Let's see, how are defining retroactivity? If you went back in time before 1010 A.D. in Home World, would you be in the Keystone Dimension. I...don't think so. That implies that Home World at least has to have its own history, which would be a carbon copy of Another, with TTI and all. If that's logical, then we just invoke the Gate Effect and Belthasar's planning. The Gate Effect is the hard to believe stretchy part, as is the idea that Kato took the planning this far. But would that do it?
Title: Re: Cause of the Dimensional Split
Post by: SolidSnake_8608 on May 17, 2007, 11:28:55 am
Maybe the split had already happened, as more than one dimension was already in existence to begin with. No split ever occured, just one reality where Serge was saved and one where he wasn't. Quantum Physics theory of Quantum Sucide says that one man can never percieve his own death, because his conscience will always shift realities to the one where by some miracle he survived. Of course, quantum theory also says that every outcome of every chance is played out in one reality or another, and a good example of this is the Reptites surviving in one dimension, or possibly and probably more than one. The dimensions we see in the game are so mangled by FATE, Lavos, and the Frozen Flame that things seem to cross dimensions due to space time being all screwy. Essentially, there never was a split per se, only one different reality were Serge died. The cause of the split we see in the game was already in existence, in fact, there isn't a cause for a split at all, because it never really happened, Home World is just a reality in which Serge's conscience mind resides after his body in another world is killed. Therefore, going back in time in Home world would place you in Home World's history, as every reality has it's own history. This could also mean that the day of lavos was played out in one reality, the ruined world of 2300 AD could still exist, in one reality or another. And the dead sea is a culmination of Chronopolis' time crash and the space time being jacked up thanks to it being thrown back in time. Events that would change what Chronopolis was in 2400 are all played out inside of the dead sea. Still don't quite have a good theory for that one...let me know what you think Zeality.
Title: Re: Cause of the Dimensional Split
Post by: Mr. Molecule on June 01, 2007, 11:20:30 am
Okay, so now this has changed an article, I guess. Also created an "official" Cross plot hole.

The problem is, I just don't think the ghost's statements are conclusive enough to counteract the entirety of everything else said in the entire game (except for Lucca-ghost's highly ambiguous speech.) There are lotsa things wrong with Chronopolis guy's speech.

1. Are you still assuming that the first bit, with the fisherman & poet, implies prior control of two dimensions? That's clearly incorrect. Read my prior post--both instructions only went to those in Another World. The statement is just emphasizing how FATE can control one world & not the other, & in that way pointing out how these changes can, in fact, be related only to Serge not dying. Or, if you want to assume that the ghost DOES mean to imply prior control and just messes up, well, that's just further proof that this sequence is highly flawed.

2. Why would the researchers call Home World "World 01" if it's the world they're NOT in, and is the world typically assumed to be the offshoot? I proposed that Another World is World 00. I guess that's stretching. Still, calling the offshoot World 01 is pretty strange. Another reason this bit is confusing.

3. We're really basing this on two words. "Ever since." That's... that's not alot of words.

I know the Cross translation is said to be a lot less confusing than even the original Japanese game, but I'm thinking maybe a re-translation of this bit might clear some things up. To me it seems like translation that didn't quiiiiiite make it--understandable, the concepts here are pretty complex.

And as for Chronopolis being "built" to guard two dimensions--absurd, I say. For one, that would imply that the split occured before the researchers left chronopolis & populated El Nido. I guess that's one possible theory, but it seems to me the split had to have occurred AFTER chronopolis went back in time--otherwise, how would they be aware of the other dimension? Also, this idea hinges on one extra screen being set up, to mmonitor "World 01." Look, Chronopolis has all manner of robots wandering around, readyto whoop your ass. It's protected by the 3 fates. *I* can manage to hook a monitor up to a computer, if I'm given ten years to do so; I sure they could accomplish that too. Chronopolis obviously has the facilities need to keep itself running for thousands of years, after all. One computer monitor would be nothing to them. It's be more egregrious if they DIDN'T have a second monitor.
Title: Re: Cause of the Dimensional Split
Post by: ZeaLitY on June 01, 2007, 02:58:58 pm
Well, that World 01 thing is pretty convincing...

It's just the wording. Now's the time I'd ask someone to visit that part of game in Japanese, but fat chance we'll ever get results with that...
Title: Re: Cause of the Dimensional Split
Post by: Mr. Molecule on June 11, 2007, 03:13:51 pm
Reveiwing the "Salt for the Dead Sea" article, I've come across some evidence backing up the 1010 split.

The fact that both the researchers veiwing Home, and the residents of Home themselves, note the "formation" of the dead sea in 1010 is evidence that that was when the split occurred. A major result of the split is that in one dimension, the actions of ther Heroes of Time were nullified. If the split occurred earlier, it would still lead in Home World to the salvation of Serge and the damnation of the world. In that case, the Sea of Eden should have changed to the dead sea when the change occurred.

Theoretically, the changing of the future should have lead to the Dead Sea being present throught the history of Home since the Time Crash. For more analysis on why this isn't so see my post in this  (http://www.chronocompendium.com/Forums/index.php?topic=4302.0)thread. It's... long and complicated. But necessary for this discussion.
Title: Re: Cause of the Dimensional Split
Post by: rushingwind on June 22, 2007, 05:19:33 am
My small contribution to this thread is just to point out a bit of dialouge that Serge/Lynx has with his mother, just after he has been transformed into Lynx:

Quote
Marge: That night, your father, Wazuki, and his friend Miguel set out to sea, despite
a storm... It was an emergency... They were swallowed by the high waves and lost
consciousness. When they came to, they found themselves inside the Dead Sea... A
place where no living creature dares enter.  I don't know what happened, but that
incident changed your father. And your father's friend, Miguel... That was Leena's
father. He never returned... Back then, that place wasn't called the Dead Sea...
Yes, I believe they called it "Sea of Eden" ...
That was 14 years ago.

It would seem to suggest that a split happened in recent history, recent enough that the Dead Sea was not always there (because Home World Marge clearly remembers it being the Sea of Eden before).  Therefore, Home World had to be created in the last twenty years (otherwise, how would anyone know of the Sea of Eden in Home World?  It never existed until Serge came along).

Just my humble contribution that may or may not have any weight...  *slinks back into the lurker's corner*
Title: Re: Cause of the Dimensional Split
Post by: jihnsius on June 22, 2007, 09:24:33 am
Reveiwing the "Salt for the Dead Sea" article, I've come across some evidence backing up the 1010 split.

The fact that both the researchers veiwing Home, and the residents of Home themselves, note the "formation" of the dead sea in 1010 is evidence that that was when the split occurred. A major result of the split is that in one dimension, the actions of ther Heroes of Time were nullified. If the split occurred earlier, it would still lead in Home World to the salvation of Serge and the damnation of the world. In that case, the Sea of Eden should have changed to the dead sea when the change occurred.

Theoretically, the changing of the future should have lead to the Dead Sea being present throught the history of Home since the Time Crash.

I still don't see this as solid evidence contrary to the original idea, that the dimensions very well may have split in 12,000BC. Just because the Dead Sea doesn't form until the so-called 'dimensional split' doesn't mean that the split had to have occured at that time, it just means that that's when there was an actual physical difference between the two dimensions. Sure, the idea is a little farfetched and it pretty much comes down to semantics, but the probability is still there. Or perhaps it could be thought of as that it's actually the Entity that causes the Dead Sea to form, having 'knowledge' that this particular dimension is the one that will bring about the end of time if events don't change. If not for an omniscient being such as this, it'd be impossible for the Dead Sea to form, given that the dimensions would be /exactly/ the same up until Serge cries, sparking Schala to affect one demension and not the other.
Title: Re: Cause of the Dimensional Split
Post by: inode on June 27, 2007, 09:43:26 pm
"The world became divided into two" line may be referring to the presence of Dinopolis in the dimension.  When Dinopolis was pulled from its timeline into this timeline, didn't the world become divided into two?  Let me explain.  The world of the Dragonians with their Dragon God and Dinopolis and the world of the humans with their god FATE and Chronopolis clashed at 10,000 BC in the Sea of Eden; the two different worlds both ended up in the same place at the same time.  Two worlds; one dimension.  If this is how it is to be interpreted, then Lucca is explaining that Chronopolis and Dinopolis were both pulled back to 10.000 BC at the same time Schala heard Serge's cries for help echo through time. 
Title: Re: Cause of the Dimensional Split
Post by: jihnsius on June 28, 2007, 12:02:39 pm
"The world became divided into two" line may be referring to the presence of Dinopolis in the dimension.  When Dinopolis was pulled from its timeline into this timeline, didn't the world become divided into two?  Let me explain.  The world of the Dragonians with their Dragon God and Dinopolis and the world of the humans with their god FATE and Chronopolis clashed at 10,000 BC in the Sea of Eden; the two different worlds both ended up in the same place at the same time.  Two worlds; one dimension.  If this is how it is to be interpreted, then Lucca is explaining that Chronopolis and Dinopolis were both pulled back to 10.000 BC at the same time Schala heard Serge's cries for help echo through time. 

I'd think that implies the opposite: Two dimensions, one world. The outcome of two seperate dimensions (Dinopolis and Chronopolis) were brought together into one dimension (one world.) It was the same world, just different timelines. Again, semantics are at heart here for determining what's right.
Title: Re: Cause of the Dimensional Split
Post by: inode on June 30, 2007, 06:41:09 pm
Hmmm...  Let me try refocusing my thoughts.  There are two competing forces in the world each trying to overcome the other: the humans and the dragonians.  Before 10,000 BC there was only one force and no competition, or rather the other force was eliminated in 65M BC.  Now, because Chronopolis and Dinopolis appear in the same dimension, that competition exists in the world once again.  The world is divided into two equal but opposite forces driven along those ends: the natural (dragonians) vs. the artificial (humans).  I assume that this is what Lucca means when she says that the world became divided into two.  She is referring to the competitive struggle between the two forces in the world that didn't exist before; not to the dimensional split.