Chrono Compendium
Marbule Gallery - Completed Fan Creations => Crimson Echoes => Crimson Echoes Plot Construction => Topic started by: ZeaLitY on October 15, 2006, 01:45:51 am
-
Before the game
Belthasar comes to the future and builds Chronopolis, without telling the Central Regime. He uses the Frozen Flame, its generator, and a Time Egg to resurrect friends and others. However, the effort to save King Zeal backfires; he loses control of the King, who escapes on his own will with the Flame and Time Egg.
Prologue
King Zeal took interest in Crono, Marle, and Lucca. He gave General Montcrief funds and cyborg implants to cause trouble. Porre tries to reverse-engineer them to create other machines, such as a tank, but they aren’t skilled enough.
- 1002 - Montcrief’s cyborg program releases its first candidate, Sorin, and sends him on a test run to assassinate the Chancellor. Lucca's prototype Time Egg backfires, sending the party to Chronopolis.
Chapter 1: Legacy of Zeal
King Zeal also contacted Dalton, and recruited him in preparation of his re-creation of the kingdom of Zeal. Dalton’s loyalty is dubious, as it was with Queen Zeal, but King Zeal doesn’t consider him a serious threat, anyway.
- 11999 - While searching for Schala, Magus faints, is rescued by the First Village Elder and gets Sargon to let people use his healing square.
- 11999 - Dalton retrieves the Silver Streak for King Zeal. Magus shadows Dalton but is defeated. Emphasis is put on the fact that Magus is much weaker than he should be. Magus is locked in stasis; he retains a dreamlike consciousness and begins reflecting on his past.
Chapter 2: Double Trouble
Having heard and observed the party, the Porre agent decides to discretly loot Lucca’s house to learn interesting stuff. He finds the Gate Key, and uses it to travel to Chronopolis (via the Telepod blue Gate). He downloads information about tank technology.
- 2302 - Belthasar greets Crono and friends. He shows them the Time Dispatch Chamber, a machine which can send people to any year in time, but not bring them back. He also explains that the party’s arrival was due to the Temporal Catch, a powerful force field which diverts most time portals to Chronopolis instead of the End of Time.
- 2302 - The party finds the Porre agent and tries to capture him, but they’re all caught in the Dispatch Chamber and return to 1002. They visit the Porre Camp. The agent waits for them to leave and enters to fix the tank prototype.
- Montcrief attacks Guardia. The party fights off the invasion. The agent flees and loses the Gate Key. Lucca picks it up and they decide to go see if the Telepod Gate (or the Medina one) is somehow reopened.
- 2302 - The party arrives in Chronopolis again. King Zeal releases monsters to test it; the party defeats them.
Chapter 3: Beneath the Azure
King Zeal resurrects Schala with the Flame’s power. He does this instead of simply preventing her from dying in the past, because he wants her to experience the same thing he has experienced.
- 2302 - Belthasar notes that the monsters were from the same kind as the Ocean Palace ones. He sends the party to 11998 BC to investigate the Palace ruins.
- 11998 - The party finds Schala and King Zeal. Magus feels something’s weird is going on and frees himself from the stasis prison. He rushes to the Ocean Palace and is confused to find his sister now even though he had already visited the place before with no result. Because of Magus’s presence, King Zeal picks up the Masamune to hurt him and then escapes, “entrusting” Schala to the party for the time being.
Chapter 4: Murmurs of Red
King Zeal’s removal of the Masamune alters the timeline. In the Middle Ages, Cyrus and Glenn died as normal soldiers. Kasmir lived on to become a powerful Mystic illusionist instead of dying young. In 600 A.D., Kasmir replaced Magus as the Mystic leader. A bewildered Glenn returned from the Lavos quest and founded the Vanguard order to restore peace quickly. However, the war dragged on until 650 A.D.
- 2302 - Magus and Schala reunite, while the party requests to visit Glenn in 602 A.D.
- 602 - Glenn is found in the Dorino Field, preparing to raid the Mystic continent. Kasmir is defeated in the tunnel, but as expected by Glenn, it was just another illusion.
- 602 - The party must track back to save two Vanguard, while Glenn continues alone. He finds Vanguard and Porre troops discussing what to do with a small Mystic village claiming to be fed up with Kasmir. The three Vanguard captains have differing opinions, and Glenn must side with one of them:
- Renault’s option: Help Porre raid the village
- This option will show Glenn giving into his distaste for the Mystics, and ravaging the village. Porre will give you thanks for helping them. In 1002 A.D., tensions with Porre will have backed down somewhat, while Medina will become unfriendly.
- Luther’s option: Prevent Porre from raiding the village
- Porre will express incredulity at this course of action and will send forth some soldiers that Glenn will defeat. The Mystics will thank you and give you a reward. In 1002 A.D., however, you will find Porre to be much more hostile to you.
- Roget’s option: Declare neutrality
- This provokes a dismissive reaction from both sides. When it's over, the Mystic and Porre fighters will have been eradicated to the last man. The corpses are available for looting, and thus you obtain far more items than you would with either of the first two options. In 1002 A.D., both Porre and Medina will be unfriendly.
Chapter 5: Asking the Mirror
- 2302 - The party returns to Chronopolis with Glenn. Magus joins the party following a dialogue with Schala.
- 2302 - Belthasar remarks that the recent activities are starting to wear out the Chronopolis Dreamstone, so he needs his old Zeal notes to choose a new and better power source. He sends the party to 12001 B.C. with a Time Egg (so they can return).
- 12001 - The party learns about early Project Mammon, recovers the notes, and avoids a patrol by Dalton.
Chapter 6: The Breaking Point
- 2302 - Having recovered his notes, Belthasar gives a speech on Dreamstone and King Zeal. He then decides that the Dragoon Tooth, a legendary Reptite artifact, is what they need to power Chronopolis.
- 2302 - The entire party depart to Prehistory, as Belthasar notes that they might need the extra hands for uncovering the Dragon Tooth if it requires a little work.
- 64999998 - The party rescues Ayla and discovers that the “Dragoon Tooth” is actually a Reptite shamaness. They also find King Zeal, who followed the party around for some time and learned of Lavos’s presence in Prehistory. He didn’t know it directly because the Frozen Flame doesn’t want him to.
- 64999998 - King Zeal notes how he and Lavos are both in a contest for survival, and he will kill Lavos. The Frozen Flame dispenses the Dragon Tooth, a male Reptite (we could call him Zavra, to salvage a name from the previous drafts), and the six party members through time while King Zeal attempts the Atash Kedah.
Chapter 7: An Emerald Dream (part 1)
The Dragon Tooth and Zavra arrive in 3000000 BC, get mutated by the Frozen Flame along with the humans, and produce a new population of Reptites.
- 1 - Marle awakes to find Cedric and her ancestors, still sharing the planet with Reptites but on the verge of defeat. Marle locates Terra Tower and decides to explore it, hoping to find her friends or some magical device.
- 1 - Marle is trapped by surprise by a Xamoltan time traveler, Cakulha, coming from 2001, and dies. Cedric’s village is destroyed by the Reptites.
Chapter 8: An Emerald Dream (part 2) (this needs a distinct title)
- 2001 - Lucca and Robo arrive to find themselves in the midst of robots.
- 2001 - The robots wish to secede from Reptite control, and enlist the two to destroy an intelligence facility where a non-Maverick AI is being developed to stop the robot rebellion. Lucca notes that with the Frozen Flame taint, Reptites are as nocive to the planet as the humans...
- 2001 - In exchange, the robots give Lucca and Robo access to Terra Tower, noting that destroying the Vision Serpent will cripple the Reptites for good. They learn about Cakulha, Coyopa, and Yaluk, but never meet them as they seem to have already gone in time.
- 2001 - Lucca and Robo destroy the Vision Serpent, a prototype Dragon God (this relation is hinted, not stated of course). They can't go back in time since the portal too was destroyed, but this cripples the Reptites, allowing the robots to rule. Lucca and Robo seemingly enjoy living with the robots, and spend the rest of their lifes there.
Chapter 9: An Emerald Dream (part 3) (this needs a distinct title)
- 1002 - Crono, Magus, and Glenn arrive in a forest. They head up a little and find a village (all one map) and Terra Tower, where a traveler blocks the entrance but is cordial.
- 1002 - They see Reptites doing a strongman contest. They battle a few and win, earning a dinner with the time travelers.
- 1002 - The two travelers explain their history and ask where the others came from; they say outer space.
- 1002 - The party get elemental armor from a group who do not trust the new time travelers.
- 1002 - When Crono meets with the religious leaders who doubt the time travelers, they'll reason that time traveling is going too far...that the Reptites have grown in harmony with the planet by restricting their ambitions, and that the time traveling seems to be a blind leap.
- 1002 - The party find the Porre agent from Chapter 2, bewildered and thinking that he came to the wrong era. They almost fight, but decide to ally to figure out what's going on. His name is revealed as Sorin.
- 1002 - They go to Terra Tower, and Magus detects a massive accumulation at the top of Terra Tower, and they break in.
- 1002 - Crono sees Marle's skeleton in a cell with the pendant and immediately kills two Reptites trying to reason with him.
- 1002 - King Zeal comes in and notifies the Xamoltan time traveler who is present, Coyopa, that Crono, Magus, and Glenn must also be apprehended, and that they're trying to disrupt Reptite civilization.
- 1002 - Crono and the others kill Coyopa and use the portal to return to 64999998 B.C.
- 1002 - Sorin follows them through the portal.
Chapter 10: The Stain of Regency
- 64999998 - Crono, Magus, and Glenn burst in to the crater a few minutes before the initial time warps. Sorin arrives and jumps in the Dragon Tooth’s portal to prevent her from changing the timeline.
- 64999998 - The party must choose once more to save Ayla or attack Zeal. A few battles happen.
- 64999998 - Magus and Glenn are held back by a Light barrier, but Crono, being Light innate, is able to go through. King Zeal taunts Crono and talks about the Flame. It's such an illustrious shade of crimson...it represents the uncovered, unbound desire for more power and advancement. He notes that communicating with it has given him many new perspectives, and opened his mind to all sorts of things...but Crono knocks King Zeal to the ground, disrupting the spell.
- 64999998 - Magus and Glenn join Crono to try and finish him off. King Zeal leaves, but notes that the spell will partly finish, and hopes they enjoy the fire. Magus, Glenn, and Crono are severely wounded before they can escape.
Chapter 11: (The Founding of Guardia)
- 1 - The screen cuts here, where Marle is sleeping in a bed in a stone room. Cedric wakes her and they ride out to battle to find Antaeus. This time Cedric is truely "Cedric Guardia the Executor", a brutal conqueror (and Arbiter of the Flame!), not the polite and ordinary "Cedric" of the altered timeline.
- 1 - Due to Marle's presence during the battle, the events are altered: Marle does something not very wise that draws the warriors' attention where it shouldn't have. The consequence is that Antaeus steals the Frozen Flame before Cedric can use it. Antaeus's body is charged with energy and he utters the already famous sentences:
- "A thousand fires have sparked within my mind! I see everything! I know all! And I know this: you must perish!"
- 1 - Marle realizes what she's just done and has to fight Antaeus in Cedric's place. She defeats him; Cedric grabs the Frozen Flame back and the Porre troops surrender. A Chronopolis agent locates Marle and takes her back, noting that the Entity apparently created a permanent Gate in this era.
- 2302 - Marle finds Crono, Magus, and Glenn bedridden. She talks to Crono. Lucca and Robo arrive. Schala is busy tending to Ayla in Prehistory.
- 2302 - Belthasar explains that Coyopa showed up in 1002 A.D., and that Lucca and Robo "took care of him."
Chapter 12: (this is a bit of Zeality's "The Gray Forgotten" and Hadriel's "Vanguard Apocalypse")
- Belthasar informs the party that Cakulha is causing some crisis on Zenan mainland. He tells them to first recover the Epoch in 1,002 A.D. in case something would happen to Chronopolis.
- 2302 - After doing so and returning, the party may learn about the future political situation by browsing a computer: in the aftermaths of a disastrous nuclear conflict in the 22th century, the nations of the world decided to unite in a Central Regime to prevent other tragedies. In reality, the Vanguard organization is almost synonymous with this regime: it controls most of it. Rebellions form from time to time but are always easily crushed. In 2,302 A.D., the situation is different because of Cakulha. He joined the current (terroristic) rebellion and has managed to acquire a nuclear missile that they plan to use on a city of the Central Regime. Belthasar doesn't really know why Cakulha joined them, but the party has to take care of him in any case.
- 2302 - The party makes its way in the rebel base fighting a few robots and a majority of human enemies (we'll replace Krawlie with a mecha-armored fighter...or something). Whenever there are no enemy around the party to hear him, Cakulha appears on a computer screen and ask the party ethical questions about changing time. He also reveals that his only goal in this conflict is to gather resource and acquire the means necessary to find Chronopolis. He can't directly use the resource of the Central Regime, because he doesn't want to tell anyone about the Time Fortress and because they would have used him as a guinea pig if they ever found him. So he joined this non-xenophobic rebellion instead and tries to make them overthrow the regime. Cakulha in the missile base ridicules the world and the party for mucking in time, noting that dangerous, blind pursuits like this are like a cancer of space-time. After all questions are answered, one out of three possible outcomes for Cakulha is reached:
- 1. He commits suicide (normal rewards).
- 2. He's defeated in battle by the party (more EXP gain + some piece of equipment).
- 3. He tries to stop the missile launch but is killed by the rebels (more GP + some Elixirs or Megalixirs).
- 2302 - In the end, the remaining rebels manage to launch the missile regardless of Cakulha's fate. The party jumps in the Epoch and blows it before it reaches its target. At the minimum, the cutscene will show the missile, the Epoch, and some rebel jets flying above the ocean, and an explosion with DrawGeometry and fire explosion sprites. If we can, we'll add close-ups, lateral views, mode 7, etc.
- 2302 - After returning to Belthasar, the party is told that a few rebel robots (including Proto 5-02C) actually managed to hear Cakulha and them mentioning Chronopolis, and that rumors of its existence is starting to spread on the mainland. People don't believe those robots, except the Vanguard of the Central Regime, who already suspected that their founder Glenn was a time-traveler...
Chapter 13: (Animal-like Persistence)
The party is saddened by Cakulha's fate, whatever it is, but Belthasar is just upset about the Vanguard searching the oceans for Chronopolis. For now though, he lets the party go visit Ayla in Prehistory.
- 64999998 - The party find Ayla wounded, but alive. Things are back to normal in prehistory.
- 64999998 - ...actually, are they? NPCs speak about a new leader among the Reptites. The party realize that the Xamoltans were three: Coyopa (killed in 1002), Cakulha (seen in 1 AD and taken care of in 2302), and Yaluk, the female leader whose fate is unknown.
- 64999998 - Somewhere (Singing Mt or a new location), the party meet with the Reptites. Yaluk is indeed here, but reveals she doesn't want to fight. She ceased to obey King Zeal and plans to just live peacefully with the remaining Reptites, away from the humans, until her species die out (after her lifetime anyway). She dreams of a world in which Lavos never falls and the Reptites can leave in harmony with nature... but it's just a dream, isn't it? The party reveals her Cakulha's fate, but Yaluk's decision doesn't change in any case.
- 64999998 - Yaluk tells the party that she knows of Azala, who may have had a chance to save the Reptites, but was so selfish and absorbed with his war with humanity that he did nothing and was crushed by the events of Lavos's fall. His desire became almost self-destructive. Yaluk cautions the humans against a similar fate.
- 64999998 - After all those emotional moments, I suppose something less distressing is gladly welcome by the player: a strong and stupid Ioka man challenges Ayla to be chief of Ioka, citing her incapacitation as weakness. He challenges her to a game of getting the most animal hides off a tall mountain.
- 64999998 - Ayla obviously cannot participate, but Glenn steps up to the challenge, comedically scampering around to get more hides than the other guy.
- 64999998 - That night, Magus and Schala reflect on King Zeal. Schala reveals her sorrow, her feeling that back in the Ocean Palace when she woke up Lavos, she ultimately caused everything bad that happened since then and is in a way the actual responsible for every life that was suppressed because of it.
Chapter 14: The Glare of Midnight...
In Chronopolis, Belthasar thought he could handle the situation with the robots and Vanguard, but he can't handle it any longer. Belthasar decides to clean up the timeline: if the party recover the "past" Masamune and put it back somewhere in 11,998 BC, the Mystic War will revert back to its original state and the Vanguard will cease to exist to annoy Chronopolis. Belthasar reveals that King Zeal had given it to Kasmir in 602 AD after their first encounter (he put Masa and Mune to sleep too, but the sword isn't corrupted).
- 602 - The party arrive to find Zenan set back by fighting which recently subsided. They hear that the attack was, at the last minute, led by Ozzie, Slash, and Flea, and that the Mystics have since retreated.
- 602 - As the party arrive in Medina, Kasmir gives the clear for the Mystic genocide. Ozzie, Slash, and Flea spread to the three settlements to stop them.
- 602 - The invasion is repelled and everyone meets at the entrance to the dungeon. The Mystic warriors and Magus break through, and the two groups split up.
- 602 - They reach Kasmir, but realize that Porre just sent humans there as a reprisal. They know the humans will be massacred. The Mystic warriors volunteer to stop Kasmir if the others will save their kind.
- 602 - King Zeal arrives and punts the Mystic warriors outside the fortress. He tells Kasmir that he needs his Mystics for a task, and leaves Kasmir behind, who promptly escapes the back way.
- 602 - Crono finds the Porreans dead and returns to find everyone else gone. They decide to go to 1002 to see if anything has changed.
Chapter 15: ...And the Darkness of Noon
- 1002 - Conditions are horrible now that the Mystics have grown close to Porre after several of them were martyred while trying to stop Kasmir.
- 1002 - King Guardia and the Vanguard are staging a last ditch meeting with Porre-Medina to smooth things over.
- 1002 - Crono decides to attend instead of returning to 602 since the meeting is taking place immediately.
- 1002 - While at the meeting, Guardia Castle comes under attack from Mystics unleashed by King Zeal. The Vanguard seal the meeting room while Crono and the others rumble in the castle.
- 1002 - Crono makes it up to the top tower, where he finds the portal and someone gets rid of it. He returns to the throne room to find King Guardia crawling to the throne. Marle rushes in, and he collapses and dies.
- 1002 - King Zeal appears behind them on the throne of Guardia. He laughs at the turn of events and remarks that it's given him the opportunity to do some shopping in Guardia's treasury. Marle takes a shot at him, but he disappears. The Vanguard and guards get things under control. The Sun Stone is missing.
- 602 - The heroes arrive, and speak to the Mystic Warriors. They note that King Zeal knocked them out and left Kasmir hanging, but they can't find him. They did find the Masamune though. Being dumb, they don't realize its power and agree to offer it to the party. Past Masa and Mune awake and say something to their present counterparts.
- 602 - The heroes ask the Mystic Warriors to lead Medina again on the condition that they'll root out the love for Porre and not pull any trick like before.
- 11998 - Glenn puts the past Masamune in some mountain in the wild. The party mention in passing that a Glenn fighting with two legendary swords would have been awesome.
- 2302 - Melchior ponders about how a legendary weapon can elevate people's ideals so much... while it could also perverse other people's or even the same people's consciences, at the same time.
Chapter 16: (Stop the Porre Lab)
With the Masamune in history, 602 AD now returns to peace and the Central Regime (still existent, but with no Vanguard) doesn't try to find Chronopolis. King Guardia in 1002 is still dead since this was caused by King Zeal. The fact that Belthasar doesn't let Marle use the TDC to revive her father is justified by the robots/Vanguard "incident".
- 2302 - The party return to Chronopolis, where Marle argues with Belthasar about saving her father's life. Belthasar reveals that he was soon to die anyway. He tells the party they can rest or return to the present while he's trying to locate King Zeal. The party feel like they should check Medina 1002 after all that happened.
- 1002 - Hutch tells them Toma XIII has gone missing. The party search at the sealed pyramid and find the door to something. However, they can't open it, and Hutch is worried about Toma. The party decide to go see the first Toma.
- 1002 - They bring him to 1002 A.D. and he opens it up. They enter and go down a few hallways to find a Porre lab conducting experiments on Mystics. The lead researchers are Luccia's parents; she's there as a 10 year old kid along with her older brother (the man who would create Grobyc in CC). Anyway, they're trying to infuse humans with magic, and create monstrosities as a result. Toma attempts to bust out his descendant as the party fight some of their creations. (Wild idea: photoshop the CT monster "Mutant" to make him look like a CC monster "Neo-N-Bulb": they already look a bit alike.)
- 1002 - They eventually find Luccia and her parents, who confirm that these ruins belonged to some weird civilization. The boss comes out and tramples her parents. The party defeat the boss. Before dying, Luccia's parents tell her and his brother to finish their research and complete a new cyborg (the first Porre cyborg was completed only thanks to King Zeal's help).
- 1002 - The party set bombs to demolish the place to limit knowledge of Zeal. They take Luccia and her brother outside with the Tomas, who have an interesting scene together. William Ishito shows up and remarks that Porre might form a Black Wind unit to replace the losses there, and that he'll join it to make sure things don't get out of hand. His 8 year old brother Norris is with him and notes that he'll join too, as he wants to be a hero. Ishito shrugs it off, and Toma goes to check out his museum before returning to 602 A.D.
Chapter 17: Once More Unto the Breach
This chapter is a strong opportunity to demonstrate Belthasar's philosophy that the end justifies the means, as well as the actual unreliability of Crono's party. Ultimately, this will show why Belthasar didn't work with most of them in Chrono Cross...
- 64999998 - Ayla, if the party decided to stop King Zeal, heals.
- 2302 - Belthasar, flabbergasted, suggests the party strike at the Frozen Flame to lure King Zeal out for battle. He notes that in a few days, it will be one year exactly since the Ocean Palace incident, and that the party can strike at the Frozen Flame -- inside the Mammon Machine -- in the interim period between the Ocean Palace's destruction and the creation of the Black Omen.
- 2302 - Belthasar notes that Schala must be present to allow the party to get close to the Frozen Flame. Magus objects but relents after being told that this will give him a shot to kill his father. Once the Mammon Machine is exposed, Glenn will use his Masamune on it. Whereas the Red Knife failed, the full sword should do the trick.
- 2302 - Striking the past Frozen Flame actually has more consequences than it seems: if the party would succeed in destroying the Flame, Guardia would simply disappear from history, as Antaeus would easily butcher a Flame-less Cedric! In that scenario, past Marle might still defeat Antaeus anyway, but Guardia might not dominate over the other tribes on the long term. The risk must be taken according to Belthasar, who slightly hints towards the fact that Chronopolis would still exist in a Porre dominant world anyway; moreover, he reminds the party that they already destroyed one world, the Reptite one, and that they must not have remorse in destroying another one... because it is necessary. The party, as well as Melchior and Gaspar, are in a dilemma, and this is more or less why the assault is a failure: the party don't totally intend to destroy the Flame, but rather to "poke" it to lure King Zeal out.
- 12000 - The party arrive to find a strange Ocean Palace. It is filled with certain monsters and Zealians. They get to the throne room and find the Mammon Machine.
- 12000 - Glenn plunges the Masamune in the machine. To protect itself, the Flame discards the Mammon Machine into the Darkness Beyond Time, and the Masamune flashes to its "evil branch" form for one second or so. Schala falls in the distortion before it closes. King Zeal feels the attack and arrives with his Frozen Flame. He explains that destroying the old copy wouldn't have hurted him anyway, and thanks the party for coming to him.
- 12000 - King Zeal is temporarily stunned to learn that Schala has been sucked in, and Glenn slashes him with the Masamune. He goes into a stasis, leaving his Frozen Flame uncovered. The party (absolutely all members) approach it.
Chapter 18: Born in Sin, Die in Sin
- 12000 - The Frozen Flame beckons and challenges the party to see if they can tame it. All six members (seven if Ayla is healed) approach, disappearing.
- 12000 - Only active party members get Flame scenes.
- ? - Marle goes through a Guardia Castle dungeon and must face the torment of witnessing those close to her die. She sees her mother, who turns into Yakra. After killing him, he turns into King Guardia, who mutters that he killed Aliza, and now Marle has killed him. She falters.
- ? - Glenn goes through a forest / Denadoro tileset dungeon and observes scenes of cruelty in his era, and is faced with being powerless to stop them and a failure to Cyrus. He is taunted by what appears to be Magus, and is told Magus is going to destroy Chronopolis to find Schala. Glenn is tormented with the decision of killing him, and afterwards, Magus's corpse turns into Kasmir. Glenn falters.
- ? - Robo enters a dome of the ruined future. He must battle robots and kill humans who blocks his way to continue. The Flame torments him by calling him an in-betweener, caught between the world of humans and robots but unable to fully participate in either. Atropos later appears and says he is infected; he must fight Atropos to survive. Horrified, Lucca seems to appear and begins dismantling him. He ultimately kills her to survive, but falters.
- ? - Lucca must go through a series of 1000 A.D. houses, laboratories, and Leene Square. The Flame ridicules her science as merely a tool to be used by governments and those more powerful than her, and that she'll never see the bright future she's creating. The scene shfits to her house, where R-series blue robots have killed her parents. They note they must kill her and assimilate her technology. After killing them, she discovers they were piloted by children, and falters.
- ? - Magus enters what appears to be his lair. The Flame torments him by revealing just how many thousands of humans and Mystics died as a result of the war. Magus shrugs it off and keeps going, and after passing a few rooms with broken bodies of Mystics, he shouts "Where are you!!?" and enters the next room to find Schala. The Flame taunts him and blames him for the destruction of Zeal on account of his being to weak to stop his mother. What appears to be King Zeal arrives and challenges Magus in battle; this is a new enemy and he simply sits with a load of HP while a Schala enemy throws spells at Magus. Magus wears them down to the point where Schala cannot fight. King Zeal appears to launch a dark spell, and Magus is forced to counter it. As a result, Schala dies, and Magus falters.
- ? - Crono appears in the inner shell of Lavos. As he walks, he sees bodies broken upon the ground and must fight weird monsters. The Flame ridicules him for killing scores of people across time, and notes that he's nothing more than an assassin. He continues walking and sees the bodies of all manner of NPCs (important ones). He keeps going and sees the bodies of his friends. The Flame taunts him, saying that though everyone dies, Crono will continue on killing for eternity. He finds Lavos in the final chamber but is transported to a new area resembling Magus's lair. All manner of weird crap is there...however much the palette limit will allow. Robots, Mystics, humans, enemies. The Flame tells him they're all created by Lavos anyway. He's transported to fight the central Lavos bit (weakened to fit the game's difficulty) and after its over, Lavos turns into a kid who says "Forgive me." Crono kills it, and he's told that he's just subtracted yet another lifeform from the world. He runs around in the empty room before faltering.
- ? - Ayla, if available, appears in prehistory. She says "Home?" and scampers around before Reptites surround her. She wanders around and defeats them. The Flame taunts her for being a ruthless killer, but she echoes "law of earth. Win and live. Lose and die. No change law." (In the JP version it was the law of earth, not rule of life.) She's transported to a factory. No battles here; the Flame just ridicules her for not being able to even comprehend the future of life. She notes that life is simple; eat and live, love friends and lovers, and live for the betterment of the world. Defeated again in this little game, the Flame takes her back to prehistory. She wanders around and destroys more Reptites before confronting a Nizbel creature. The Flame interjects that humans can never co-exist with other life. She asks Nizbel if he wishes to fight. Nizbel declines, and Ayla opts not to fight him. Ayla states that one must protect oneself, but that all life is precious. She is transported to a black screen, and approaches the Flame before hearing a KING ZEAL: No!!
- 12000 - At the Ocean Palace, the Frozen Flame notes that none of them are worthy to control the evolution of God...but if Ayla is present and succeeds, it can say something like "Speak...voice of the land. What are you...?"
- 12000 - The party (three of them) materialize back at the Ocean Palace, where King Zeal has recovered from his stupor and stops the party from accessing the Frozen Flame.
- 12000 - The party must battle the Frozen Flame.
- 12000 - After the battle, King Zeal exclaims that something huge is happening, and withdraws through a portal with the Frozen Flame. The party returns to Chronopolis.
Chapter 19: (The Dreamtime)
The party returns to Chronopolis and finds everyone dead except Atropos and FATE. Atropos explains that King Zeal just appeared, went on a rampage and kidnapped Belthasar and Melchior. The party, wondering what King Zeal is up to, assumes that he will probably look for Gaspar as well. The full party (7 characters) travel to the End of Time.
At the End of Time, Spekkio appears and asks for a battle, just to entertain himself. He also requires Crono's presence (this is a convenience for the plot in the next scene). After the battle, Spekkio states that King Zeal didn't come here, and that Gaspar traveled to the far past a while ago anyway. The party (3 characters including Crono) uses the Gate left by Gaspar: it leads to the Dreamtime (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dreamtime)--basically an indefinite era in the far past, when biological life didn't exist yet but weird spiritual phenomena were present in the forms of "Entity emanations" occasionally bursting here and there on the barren surface.
The party makes its way across the barren land fighting curious spirit creatures (perhaps reminiscent of the Terra Tower ghosts). However, they remark that their magic Techs have somehow all disappeared! Nevertheless, they reach Gaspar near a small crack, observing some of these strange emanations bursting. Suddenly, King Zeal appears from nowhere and attacks Gaspar. Crono rushes and saves Gaspar, but is hit by one of the emanation and faints. King Zeal explains that physical life forms can't release their full power here due to the era's strange properties (perhaps Gaspar explains it's a sort of sanctuary or something), so King Zeal resorts to teleport without Gaspar to 11998 B.C., where he took Belthasar and Melchior. The party explains the whole situation to Gaspar, who then reveals that it was most probably Belthasar who revived King Zeal, as he already wanted to do that way back before the events of the Ocean Palace in CT.
Chapter 20: (Dalton’s Last Stand)
See this post (http://www.chronocompendium.com/Forums/index.php/topic,3461.msg84330.html#msg84330).
Chapter 21: Let us Part in Zealous Regret
The party returns to the End of Time (they regain their magic Techs too) and the inactive characters tend to the unconscious Crono while the active party and Gaspar go to 11998 B.C. At Sargon's house, King Zeal leaves the Sun Stone and instructions to Sargon and other people for the re-creation of the kingdom of Zeal. He explains he will then leave do "something else" (the Time Devourer is calling him to the DBT). King Zeal intended to gather the 3 Gurus here so they could watch the scene and be amazed by his glory (or something)--before dying by his hand. The villagers seem happy about King Zeal's plan and don't care much about the Gurus, and even the few dubious persons are comforted by the fact that King Zeal will leave, i.e. they'll have all the good stuff (Sun Stone, etc.) and not the worse ones (no king, no dictatorship). King Zeal even tries to convince Belthasar, knowing that Belthasar still partly yearns for the kingdom of Zeal (the reason he built the Epoch in CT was explicitely to return to his era, according to the Japanese version). But Gaspar lambasts him like in the previous plot outline, etc.
To get rid of the party, King Zeal summons the CrimseSun, a pumped up version of the Sun Stone "Son of Sun", before leaving to North Cape. After defeating the creature, the party hurries to North Cape since it's more urging. King Zeal says some stuff (but doesn't explicitely mention the Devourer of Time yet), before being flung straight upward into a huge distortion leading to the Darkness Beyond Time. The distortion remains as a vertical and gigantic black rift in spacetime hovering above North Cape. A weird composite tower seems to occupy its surface: this is the Spire of Telos (name borrowed from the first plot draft). This location will serve as both the "ancient flying fortress" of the game (like the Black Omen and Terra Tower in the previous games) and the final dungeon that we came up with in the previous plot outline (this will be the place with the discarded scraps of timelines, while the actual DBT, at the end of the dungeon, will be a totally empty and smaller place like it is in CC).
But anyway... the party can't access it yet due to a gravitational barrier (plus they need the Epoch to fly there), so they head back to Sargon's place where the Gurus remained to talk with the villagers. Glenn does his speech like in the previous plot outline:
Lucca wonders what does give their party the right to dictate how time should be, and what denies Sargon that right. Lucca starts to come to the conclusion that might is right...they possess temporal technology. But Glenn arrives to deliver a stirring speech.
"No, might is not right. Lavos has demonstrated that well enough. He possessed enough strength to wipe out the world, yet through our resolve, we were able to send him packing and allow life to continue.
We may obey no authority but our own when time traveling, but this is not necessarily bad. We have done what we believed to be right. We believe in humanity's right to live and flourish, and humanity has done that -- each person dictating how he or she will live and affect the grand scope of history. We merely have ensured that right.
Some of us have acted in our own interests --"
Magus: ...
Lucca: ...
"but we have still summarily fought to give life a chance.
You might ask, why don't we try to save every wronged person in history? Why don't we see how it all turns out in this little universe millions of years from know? Well, who knows where humanity will lead itself through history. Perhaps it's our belief in ourselves and our desire to make things right that led the planet to dream of us and enable this power.
Time travel is an strength like any other -- as long as it is in the hands of noble people with high aim and, above all else, the power of discretion -- it can bring about wonderful things. And we have that discretionary vision and focus to only do what we truly believe in, and nothing else. Even without Belthasar's messing around time and mistake of reviving King Zeal, Lavos would still have been creeping away down there in the Darkness Beyond Time.
And despite all our mistakes -- all our failures, shortcomings, and doubts -- we once again have the power to eradicate an evil influence in time. Let us use it -- not because we merely have it, but because we can unleash some good in this world that others cannot. Lavos -- the Time Devourer -- whatever you wish to call it, is poised to once again snuff out the aspirations of living beings to discover and love this magnificent and complex universe. And we are the only ones poised to stop it.
Time travel is dangerous -- but here, we don't only feel like doing it because it is "right" -- we are compelled to do it as ones who believe in humanity and the growth and understanding of our reality. And just maybe, this world can be improved a little as we struggle through our journey.
So do not falter; let us ride again on the Wings of Time to fight for what we hold important and beautiful. Let us follow Crono's example and charge into the unknown to liberate our future. The Darkness Beyond Time, a black dream with no beginning or end -- is but our finest battleground! Let us not be late for our appointment with destiny!"
Some people agree with him, some don't. Sargon tries to activate the Sun Stone but, curiously, fails. A voice is then heard saying he (the voice) sealed the Sun Stone's power. To the party's (and player's) surprise, the person appears to be Crono! He comes in with the inactive characters and speaks, saying something to further Glenn's previous speech (but let's keep it short please...). The full party and the Gurus then return to Chronopolis, leaving the people with a useless Sun Stone (it's a Moon Stone then! curious thematical reference to CC).
Chapter 22: Dreaming Across Time
Back in Chronopolis, Gaspar explains that Crono was apparently infused with a small part (or copy) of the Entity's consciousness when he touched the emanation in the Dreamtime. As a result, he is still himself but not totally; he shows traits of the Entity without being the Entity (thus why his textboxes are visible, and how he managed to seal the Sun Stone). Gaspar comments that this is probably not permanent, but he is unsure of all the effects this will leave on Crono's mind and body. Basically, this plot point is a small gift to people who wanted Crono to speak in this game; as well as a device to explain why he can't prevent the Fall of Guardia caused by time-traveling King Zeal (he'll be exhausted).
Anyway, Crono and Gaspar comment that something huge is probably happening in the DBT, but that they should still take the time to repair things in the timeline to gain more power--i.e. this is the sidequest chapter.
Chapter 23: Where Dreams go to Die
Having finished sidequests (or not), the party enters the Spire of Telos with an Epoch powered up by Belthasar. Throughout the place, emanations explain Lavos's history and the "Arbiter of Time"'s role. The discarded scraps of timeline visited include:
- the bad 602 A.D. with the 3 Vanguard leaders;
- the Reptite world with the 3 Xamoltans and the Vision Serpent;
- the future of the Reptite world, with the discarded Lucca and Robo from Chapter 8;
- the ruined 2300 A.D. of CT with Johnny and the discarded Mother Brain;
- a glimpse of the new Zeal kingdom that was prevented in Chapter 21, with Sargon and Mystics living a happy life.
Gradually, emanations of Lavos reveal the role of the Arbiter...Lavos's history and original desires...and the spurned Lavos's desire to end it all. At the end, the player characters reveal what they've learned. Magus represents this well -- "...What stupid, destructive desires. Zeal and Lavos are the same, consumed by their own power. Such pathetic things are ashes in the Black Wind. You writhe and scream of deceitful dreams...and lament your sorrows with hateful art...But you have delayed the inevitable. Nothing can live forever! The darkness has at last come to claim you. I will personally send you to hell, Lavos!
The final area is a strange place composed of reddish, spiky rocks. At the end of the path, the party falls into an empty area (the DBT as seen in CC), from which they look back and realize that the spiky place they were walking on was Lavos/the Time Devourer itself (he's gigantic, much bigger than in CC). King Zeal is in front of the TD's "face", and reveals its wish of destroying the universe and his impending merging with it. The party notes that they can feel the presence of previous Arbiters within the TD, including Schala (who's visible on the shell) in addition to... Cedric the Executor! Anyway, King Zeal comments that he (Zeal) is strongwilled enough to resist the merging for a short amount of time, just the amount he needs to kill the party by his own hand. He is defeated in a climactic final battle, after which the Frozen Flame explodes and the Devourer of Time begins to shatter and crumble. The party escapes the DBT, except Magus, who stays with Schala even though she's stuck on the TD's shell.
Cutscenes depict Ayla, Glenn, Lucca and Robo returning to their eras, and Marle tending to an exhausted Crono (whose textboxes are not seen anymore) in Guardia Castle. Everybody thinks it's over. However, a cutscene then shows Belthasar in an empty, bleak Chronopolis, pondering alone in the night. The Frozen Flame suddenly materializes in front of him in a perfectly reversed way of how it exploded in the DBT (to imply that it was just a teleportation, that it faked its death). The voice of the Flame explains that the Devourer of Time was damaged, but still exists. It then challenges Belthasar to a grand "game" between the TD and him to decide of the fate of the entire universe itself (CC!). Belthasar slowly approaches the Flame as the screen fades to black...
THE END.
After the credits, a final cutscene between Magus and King Zeal occurs like in the previous plot outline.
~
Explanation on the Origin of Lavos:
Lavos did not only evolve the human species, Lavos IS humanity. He represents the desire of evolution taken to an extreme. He wants to keep on evolving and improving himself continuously but too wildly: if we could ask him why he wants that, he'll probably have no answer to give. This is kind of the same thing for humans:
Kid: So that's Terra Tower's final, true form... In the end, we're all the same... Everyone dreams of bein' greater, more powerful...
They want self-improvement, scientific progress, etc., but where are they heading to with all this? The same question can be asked for the Reptites and every other living beings too, but the game will focus on humanity because they're the ones who got in contact with the Frozen Flame. In CC, the humans are compared to Lavos; throughout CE we could hint at the reverse, that Lavos can also be compared to humans. The original Lavoids would have originated on a planet in which humanity was so advanced, yet so selfish and destructive, that they evolved into Lavoids (this would take thousands of millennias of course). In addition to what we know of the Lavoid life cycle, the humans would also fit somewhere in there, being evolved by Lavoids, but also becoming Lavoids. The Chrono planet basically risks the same fate if the humans don't take more responsability in their free will. In a way, I guess this cycle is comparable to the Hindo-Buddhistic notion of Samsara, the wheel of perpetual reincarnations.
Maybe we could put this little scene in some nightmare or DBT area too:
On Lavos' form in the Defiled World: I'd wanted to implement this idea a while ago, and this is a perfect place for it. Remember the demon sculpture on the top of Magus' summoning altar in the original game? Lavos' form here will basically amount to that brought to life. It's a twisted form that reflects Lavos' sick desires
Some character could note that it's a twisted form that reflects Lavos' sick desires, but that also depicts him as a humanoid (despite the horns and extra arms).
Now, about the Frozen Flame's origins. Its creation was actually accidental. In order to evolve, Lavos just has to slumber in the planet's core, he doesn't need anything else. However, a piece of his shell splintered by mere chance and remained on the surface. Lavos never wanted other beings to use the Flame's power, so he wanted to retrieve it.
Lavos succeeded in recovering the Flame in 12,000 B.C. in the original timeline, when he tricked Queen Zeal into setting forth the conditions of the Ocean Palace disaster (yes, this is an adaptation of DBoruta's theory, we'll have to thank him hugely). After retrieving the Flame, Lavos simply destroyed it, or something, because he already has similar powers to it. However, in Keystone T-1, the same attempt failed because of Crono's intervention (in Keystone T-2, the TTI-fied Lavos pulls Chronopolis back in time to try a second time to retrieve the Flame, but that's after CT:CE).
Yet, simultaneously to these attempts, and all the more after them, Lavos also communicates with the person possessing the Flame, if this person is fitting or special enough. This person would be the Arbiter of Time, someone Lavos discusses with and gives a chance to stop his never-ending quest for evolution, i.e. the mediator between Lavos and the planet's inhabitants. Lavos will, explicitely or not, interrogate him about the meaning of life and their purpose in the universe (Lavos' and the Arbiter's purpose, which is the same). Whether the Arbiter can answer those questions or not, he will eventually have to make a choice: either merge with Lavos and join him in his quest to find the answers, or refuse to do so and possibly remain alive if they're strong-minded enough, in which case Lavos will still destroy the planet sooner or later and continue his life cycle anyway. King Zeal and Schala were the latest Arbiters. There were a certain amount of Arbiters before them too, and whether they fused with Lavos or not, they all contributed to add to Lavos's sentience and knowledge of things (Lavoids are all sentient, but this particular Lavos is even more...cognizant thanks to his contact with the surface species; there is a bit of the "Reconciling differences" theme in here).
The last point is the defeat of Lavos in Chrono Trigger. This has viciously altered Lavos' perspective on the universe. Instead of wanting to seek some metaphysical knowledge, he has given up and began to wish for the destruction of all space-time instead. In CT:CE, King Zeal is the Arbiter of Time. He's supposed to have the choice to not fuse with Lavos, and hugely prefer a new Zeal Kingdom actually, but he eventually falls. Perhaps he could somehow come to a conclusion reminiscent of Miguel's speech (about res nullius, fusing with eternity, etc.). Whether it's because of his madness, Lavos' will, or his conscious choice, we don't know and we defeat him before the fusion anyhow.
At the end of CC, Serge uses the Chrono Cross to "heal" the Time Devourer. Whether it answers Lavos' questions or not, we again don't know, but the liberated Schala does seem to have grasped something deep about the meaning of life.
So, that's it. It can be gradually explained throughout the game, with the big Arbiter/choice and alien/human thingies being revealed in the DBT mentioned pop-ups. I suppose this still doesn't exactly hasten things at the end of the game, though perhaps Lavos at North Cape could actually be calling the cast to the DBT to expose them his immense dilemma... this would at least make them and the player curious, and give the Entity's test another reason to be (to make sure they don't suddenly agree with Lavos' philosophy or something like that).
This interpretation explains a lot about Lavos, and gives him some personality, while still keeping the focus on humanity and the struggle of free will and fate, as it is in the rest of the series. But of course, that's a suggestion.
~
Also make sure Belthasar notes that Chronopolis will be pulled back by an attempt to get the flame. That's a great plot point.
-
What year should the formation of Dreamstone take place in? Because we have to go pretty far back if we're talking minerals, I guess.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geologic_time_scale
I posted the list of tilesets. The most obvious thing we could recycle is Future / Dome with Guardian, since the robot won't be making an appearance in CE. But that doesn't lend itself to an entire underwater scene, I guess. We'll have to also think if we want to use any one-shot tilesets for special presentations like Mt. Woe Summit. Maybe a custom thing for the final area of the DBT?
-
I've listed the tilesets. It seems we have a lot more unused tilesets than I previously thought. Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but multiple tilesets can use the same graphics, right? Even so, there are still a lot of portions of unused ones (like the Guardian, or the bridge in the prison dungeon, or Giga Gaia's pedestal) that could be edited and merged into one. What we should do now is figure out how we could add to the plot with new tilesets. The limiting factor is how much we want to swamp graphic artists with work, I guess. But it seems the sky's the limit now.
-
Don't forget Lavos' insides, plus, are we using the Tesserect?
-
Here are other tileset ideas. It's listed roughly with what I think is the most important and/or easiest to realize at the top of the list.
- Atash Kedah seen from space (we don't even have to graphic-hack anything for this one, the Celestial Gate tileset already has a planet picture, and the explosion can be done with a DrawGeometry command)
- DBT whirlpool (the moving bubbles can be put on an edited layer 3)
- Porre Lab (blend of Lucca's House and Zeal City?)
- Epoch hangar(s) (for the Cathedral, and/or Chronopolis)
- Nautilus shell
- Reptite Town interior or exterior or both
- Vision Serpent's body
- Coliseum (wouldn't it be nice?)
- Terra Tower exterior (like the Magus Lair in CT; the obvious issue here is the difficulty to draw or photoshop a decent picture with only 16 colors)
-
It seems we have much more limitations with NPCs. I skimmed through the list and these are the only ones I'm sure we can replace without sacrificing too much:
08 Dactyl
1A Dome survivor - man
1B Dome survivor - woman
21 Prehistoric villager - old man
46 Guardia Castle chef
CB Human Glenn (if we complete PC Glenn, NPC Glenn will be free to replace)
Children size:
1D Dome survivor - little girl
54 Millennial Fair visitor - little boy
55 Millennial Fair visitor - little girl
And even then, these sprites may have annoying restrictions, like symetrical bodies, etc. It would be nice if we could put Porrean soldiers and William Ishito somewhere.
EDIT: Here are the monster sprites we might be able to replace with humanoid enemies (Porrean soldiers in battle pose, the cyborg, Reptites, etc.).
04 Krawlie (yes indeed!)
06 Omicrone (Antaeus)
1E Nagaette
31 Guard
46 Evilweevil
Plus these ones, provided they don't use the same graphics as their alternate versions:
6D Thrasher (Lasher with a bo)
74 Ogan (Goblin with a hammer)
75 Flunky (with a saber)
76 Groupie (with a crossbow)
9D Slash (bare-handed)
-
Plus these ones, provided they don't use the same graphics as their alternate versions:
6D Thrasher (Lasher with a bo)
74 Ogan (Goblin with a hammer)
75 Flunky (with a saber)
76 Groupie (with a crossbow)
9D Slash (bare-handed)
I checked, and they do use the same graphics. They're different in-game because they use different animation data and/or sprite assembly.
-
I think we should keep the Dome survivors for the DBT. With them still living there, it could freak out the heroes.
-
Damn! I've started making sprites for Porrean Soldier and William Ishito, but I think I may have to restart them because I took a non-symmetrical base, and the NPCs in this list all have a left-right symmetry (in the front frame), except 1B Dome survivor - woman and CB Human Glenn. I also agree that she should try to keep the dome survivors, and we probably shouldn't touch NPC Glenn at all until PC Glenn actually exists... so, er, I have to restart those sprites (symmetrical front frames will be uglier and Ishito will probably lose his sword :( ).
[attachment deleted by admin]
-
Wait, false alert. The Prehistoric Old Man's front frame isn't symmetrical... I guess I'll have to check if the Castle Chef's is or isn't. Those 2 sprites are the only adult ones we can replace in any case, if we don't touch the dome survivors and NPC Glenn.
-
I updated the thread with music selections. We need to determine what we will and will not use. Right now, it seems like we could import five or more tracks. That number may even increase!
The list is below. I want at leaset one person to check through it.
~
21. The Kingdom Trial
22. The Hidden Truth
These could work for Porre drama, I guess.
23. A Shot of Crisis
This is good for tense situations, but like "Strange Happening" it's just a generic "bad situation" song.
24. Ruined World
Where can we use this?
25. Mystery of the Past
Maybe it could play on a mysterious inscription? I have no idea.
26. Dome-16's Ruin
2302 A.D. mall, probably.
27. People Who Threw Away the Will to Live
This is general use; we can play it whenever something bad has happened or someone is weak.
30. Bike Chase
Have to use this for the Johnny mini-game, right?
31. Robo's Theme
This will come into play at Chronopolis and in other areas.
33. Remains of the Factory
Reptite 2001 A.D. factory, right?
35. Fanfare 2
38. Fanfare 3
Not sure about these. Fanfare 2 is always fun and 3 is what plays after getting a tab.
44. Burn! Bobonga!
Unless we use it after Glenn collects hides, it may have no use.
47. Battle with Magus
This is definitely in.
49. Tyran Castle
If we reuse that music we imported, I guess this will be overwritten. Otherwise, perhaps we can use it in the Reptite world?
54. Sealed Door
When things go awry, perhaps this will be Chronopolis's theme for a while.
58. Black Dream
Second time through the Ocean Palace?
59. Determination
No reason to use this when we can use Chrono Trigger.
60. World Revolution
61. Last Battle
These two are in.
62. Festival of Stars
Are we using this in the ending?
63. Epilogue ~To Good Friends~
We could simply eject Crono & Marle and play this instead, although...I don't know.
64. To Far Away Times
This is definitely in.
65. Rat-A-Tat-Tat It's... Mitsuda
This is definitely out.
67. Sounds of the Ocean
This was the 1000 A.D. scene at the beginning of CT. We don't need it.
72. Prison Tower
73. Mystic Chant
74. Rain
75. Lavos Scream
76. Strong Wind
77. Earthquake
Do we need the above? I recommend keeping them all, I guess.
78. Fall of Mt. Woe
79. Fall of Zeal
80. Blackbird (Inside)
81. Blackbird (Outside)
We don't need these, though we could keep one of the Blackbirds as a generic machinery sound in the future.
82. Inside the Shell
83. Breath of Lavos
I take it we don't need these, but Inside the Shell is still sort of dark. We could keep it and simply mute the heartbeat (that'd be scary) and use it near King Zeal or in the DBT.
-
"People Who Threw Away the Will to Live" was replaced with the prerelease "Keeper's Dome."
Chrono'99, don't forget that it's possible to hack sprite assembly of NPCs too!
Be careful though, I discovered during my sprite assembly hacking that Geiger apparently mixed up Sprite assembly and animation data in the PC/NPC sprite data format, and Chrono Tweaker has that mix-up as well.
-
Just some comments. I omitted the songs that I don't really know what to say about (but it doesn't mean that I think we can remove them, or not remove them).
24. Ruined World
We should see how different it can sound with the "Ruined World Clanging" instrument replaced with something else. If no rearrangement sounds good, I guess we don't need that song at all.
62. Festival of Stars
It will depend on the ending... The currents ones are so sad, catastrophic, painful, etc. that it could be hard to place this song.
65. Rat-A-Tat-Tat It's... Mitsuda
Really, out? I thought it could be funny and unexpected if used in a... funny and unexpected situation.
67. Sounds of the Ocean
This could be used before the Entity underwater sequence, in a beach area (we can mute the bird sounds). It would be used only once though, so yeah, if we absolutely need to replace this song, I guess we can.
73. Mystic Chant
Could be nice in Magus's nightmare in the chapter "Born in Sin, Die in Sin". Or anybody's nightmare, actually.
74. Rain
We could need this if we make some event(s) happen in a rainy day or night (just for the drama!).
---
Totally off-topic, but I've just realized this: The theme of Arni Village in Chrono Cross is actually a rearrangement of the melody that plays after 1:30 in Epilogue ~To Good Friends~! CC basically starts with the theme that ended CT, and there are still people who think the games are totally unrelated!
-
Sounds of the Ocean should be covered by Ocean Tide, which is the same thing minus the seagulls. I'll revise the list with the suggestions.
-
I shortened the list considerably, if you could take another look. We already have 8 songs to import, so I recommend downloading these:
http://www.snesmusic.org/v2/profile.php?profile=set&selected=15734
http://www.snesmusic.org/v2/profile.php?profile=set&selected=15735
http://www.snesmusic.org/v2/profile.php?profile=set&selected=456
http://www.snesmusic.org/v2/profile.php?profile=set&selected=877
http://www.snesmusic.org/v2/profile.php?profile=set&selected=14781
http://cc.herograw.org/Black/Music%20(Chrono%20Trigger)/rds.rar
http://cc.herograw.org/Black/Music%20(Chrono%20Trigger)/ctp.rar
...Wow, listening to Arni home has made me really nostalgic for Chrono Cross. It's always like that; I dive headfirst into updating some Chrono Trigger stuff, and then when I hear Chrono Cross again, it's like...a dream...
-
This is a review of the songs that I think *may* be worth inserting. I didn't listen to all the soundtracks yet though.
CT Prerelease
040 Tyrano Lair (Unused)
Could be used in the battle against the Vision Serpent. As a side-note, it's quite reminiscent of Xenogears's boss battle theme, "The Stage of Death".
049 Keeper's Dome
Could be King Zeal's theme or something else.
021 Delightful Spekkio (Flute Does Not Fade Note-To-Note)
035 The Hidden Truth (Longer Intro)
046 Mystery Of The Past (Added Voices)
052 Lavos Heartbeat And Grunt (those human screams are quite scary, and unexpected)
062 The Brink Of Time (Higher Pitch)
Those songs could replace their CT counterparts. It's very refreshing to hear familiar songs but with small, subtle differences (differences, not worse versions!). The screams in 052 are very unexpected if you don't read the title.
Radical Dreamers
02 Under the Moonlight
This could be played in Zeal at night, if we can mute the water flow sound or mask it in the reinstrumentalization (which we probably can). Corridors of Time might seem better, but I'm not sure if it really fits the midnight atmosphere.
10 Frozen Flame
This one is mandatory. I can't wait to hear how it sounds with CT instruments...
11 Portal to Open Grounds
Wow, I don't even remember where this was played in RD, but this track is awesome! I totally picture this being played near the end of the game, during a suspenseful battle against the "first form" of whatever is the final boss.
Final Fantasy VI
56 The Fierce Battle
Personally, I think this song would have more impact than Decisive Battle (the normal boss theme). I mean, it's Atma Weapon's theme! Everything about that monster was daunting, except his English name.
I'll post my opinions about the hundred other songs, er... later.
-
Would this work for Zeal at night? DDK made it, and we can probably improve it by changing the lead instrument. It conveys the night atmosphere well.
http://ce.herograw.org/Chrono%20Trigger%20Remixes/Corridors%20of%20Time%20CE%20-%20Zealian%20Chill.spc
~
I suppose we'll round up all the suggestions later and discuss to narrow them down and choose ones suited for particular themes.
~
I guess we'll round up all suggestions. Anonymous readers, you need to participate in this. CE works because it's collaborative.
Final Fantasy 6
Troops March On - I'm a bit worried that we don't have a good march / dark army theme for Porre. We have Silent Light, but that really doesn't say "military might!" like it should.
Devil's Lab - I uh...guess I'm...not really...suggesting..this as much...as I'm just uh...wondering...HOW COULD WOULD THIS SOUND IN CHRONO TRIGGER!? If someone wants to try and import it just for the hell of it, I won't object. But I think it may be too iconic of FF6 for use in a different game.
The Fierce Battle - Agreed.
Radical Dreamers
Under the Moonlight - Whether or not we use it in Zeal, it's...there's a remix on OCR of Chrono music that this figures in to. People will be familiar with it, and it's dark and unsettling. It's very Chrono...we can find a good use for it.
Gale - Hah, just kidding. I'd just love to see the look on the faces of the people who hate this song when they hear it again...but yeah, just kidding.
The Girl Who Stole the Stars - Schala's Theme doesn't quite do it for Magus and Schala's reunion. This might work in such a situation.
Far Promise ~ Dream Shore - Aw, c'mon! This totally has to be in. It's such a part of the series now...
Frozen Flame - For use with the Frozen Flame, yes.
Portal to Open Grounds - We can even use it for a King Zeal fight or something.
Epilogue ~ Dream Shore - If we have an empty slot with nothing else to use, we can stick this in. It'd be awkward to find a place to use it, but it's a good song to use in case nothing else is available.
Gun Hazard
A Running Fight - This is a decent replacement for A Shot of Crisis, which is probably a bit stale to CT veterans.
Atlas - In the same vein as Portal to Open Grounds, it's a...waxing philosophical final mega-boss thing with an organ. Just a backup in case we need something like this.
Approach to a Shrine - Creepy and sort of expectantly unsettling enough for use in the DBT. Perhaps in a new tileset area or something like that.
A Store Keeper - Unlike the last two suggestions, this one is pretty viable for the mall in 2302 A.D. It's got the right vibe!
Richard Millman - It almost, almost has the vibe of the Factory music from Chrono Trigger. Just throwing it out there.
Sorrowful Karion - This is a depressing, but sort of resolute piece that sounds like it'd be used in a final dungeon. In fact, it could fit parts of the DBT well.
Front Mission
Mercenary - This sounds ocean-like and bubbly, sort of like other aquatic themes in games. Perhapsit could be used for the Entity dungeon. I just don't like how weak some of these songs sound...
Take the Offensive - If we need a new battle theme (like, a big battle between Porre and Guardia), this is upbeat and gets the job done.
The Evils of War - On the other hand, this could do well for a Porre marching theme if the FF6 one I suggested is too...reminiscent of FF6.
Treasure Conflix
Introduction - Aha, the 2302 A.D. Overworld music. It's bright, cheery, upbeat -- it's the future Crono worked hard to create.
Unused 4 - This is very dark. If it sounds similar in Chrono Trigger, it could be used for good end with King Zeal or Lavos.
Romancing SaGa 3
Into War... (part 2) - It's a little empty, but it could also suit the Porre marching theme we desire.
Four Noble Devils 2 - This track has a lot of power. It's a battle theme, though.
Mikhail's Theme - Sounds like a Porre theme, perhaps to be substituted for Silent Light after Porre gains some respectable footing later in the game?
Field - This is in the 1002 A.D. war vein with some of the other selections. It's not as dark or battle-oriented.
Dungeon 2 - This is creepy enough for DBT use, though not as charismatic as the other ones.
Sailing - In addition to this, RS3 has a lot of "Costa del Sol" smooth-flavored tracks that could be used in periods of rest. I do'nt think we'd have a use for any of them, but just noting it here.
Island at the Farthest Reaches - It's a sort of Delightful Spekkio type thing. It could be used in the Coliseum or elsewhere.
Tower of the Godly King - A DBT candidate.
Trade Off - If we have a mini-game of some kind?
Underwater Palace - Another candidate for the Entity dungeon. This one sounds pretty solid.
-
No songs to suggest, but I'll try to help you with choosing instruments for CTP, RD, and FF6.
On another note, are you sure you can import RS3? JCE3000GT said in a topic at Mnrogar's Den (http://www.mnrogar.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=450) that he couldn't get RS3 to import into CT.
Edit-I may be wrong about that; I think I imported one somewhat sucessfully (by sucking it from a SPC, though that just means I'm not sure how long it is or if I have the right data for sure.)
-
I'll ask Vargose the next time he's on AIM; I believe he's the one who posted the compatible games list.
Oh yes; once we finish the music (since that might result in new areas / scenes), we can amend the plot and then decide all new locations we'll need and just plan the hell out of it. It'll be ridiculously easy to put together the ROM once we know everything. Then we can build the components (maps, maybe some basic event coding for later import) and put it all together when bug 125 is fixed.
-
Are we planning to remove Ayla's theme? I don't think it's needed.
-
How about for fun we put in some styx for the ending credits
like Renegade/hangman, mr. roboto, or blue collar man.
everyone is a styx fan, most people just don't know it.
or better yet, everyone who participated could get there own theme in a producer's room ending(if we do one)
-
I hope you're joking, because there is no .spc composition program in existence save Hyrule Magic, and that's a stretch considering the LTTP spc core isn't even compatible with Chrono Trigger's.
Character themes inexorably remain.
-
I think Ayla's Theme would be removed only if Schala were a PC... but this is impossible, considering we're still not even sure PC Glenn is possible.
-
I think Ayla's Theme would be removed only if Schala were a PC... but this is impossible, considering we're still not even sure PC Glenn is possible.
So, Ayla is still going to be a playable character?
-
She's the optional character. In chapter, er... ten, you must choose between saving her life or stopping King Zeal.
-
I hope you're joking, because there is no .spc composition program in existence save Hyrule Magic, and that's a stretch considering the LTTP spc core isn't even compatible with Chrono Trigger's.
the styx idea was a joke, I felt like lightneing the mood to spur some more "out of the box" suggestions. Along the lines of the shoot higher than your goal, and you'll hit your goal, thinking.
In all honesty though so many people love styx and they don't know it.
and if we do go about a producer's room ending it'll probably be one of the last things we do. For all we know we could have enough unused sprites to make custom one for everyone (i highly doubt that).
We could even have one person with a custom sprite and then send the player on a scavenger hunt to find everyone else, who are arbitrary objects, like a lampost or a bucket. and then their theme will play after speaking to that particular person. and after all are found the player will get something special (they'll be told that at the beginning of the hunt). then it turns out to be a hug, and a big "The End" pops up.
-
Gun Hazard
20 Invasion
42 Death in Broad Daylight
One of these 2 could be used in infiltration-based dungeons (Reptite Factory and/or Porre Lab). I'm not sure which song is the better.
30 Blue Sky
Listen to this song: the first 3 notes are identical to the ones found in Kid's theme in RD or CC... It makes you wonder (this track is credited to Uematsu and GH was released before RD, mmh...). In any case, with this Chrono sound, I think this song would make a good "sad moment" theme.
Front Mission
19 Shallow Twilight
Entity dungeon? It's bubbly like Mercenaries but it has an organ.
24 Shop
Could actually work for Reptite Factory and/or Porre Lab. It's very jazzy, and thus much more original and interesting than Generic Creepy Theme Number 5436.
30 Rage! Rage! Rage!
Another potential battle theme.
Romancing SaGa 3
46 Ice Lake
The Zealian Chill mix would indeed make a good theme for the return to Zeal, but then we'd have to find something else for the normal 11,998 B.C. overworld... I think this song could work well, the melody is icy and cold-sounding, and is totally unlike the Zealian themes, which is good for 11,998 B.C. since Zeal is simply no more.
48 Leonid's Castle
Terra Tower and/or Serran's Fortress?
So with this, I've listened to all the soundtracks posted. It's hard to choose tracks because these games have very different atmospheres than Chrono (Front Mission 1 and the shoot-'em-up GH are all about military, totally non-epic). I wonder if we can still find other compatible games? Maybe there could be good things in more epic games like Seiken Densetsu 3 or Treasure Hunter G.
---
Also, off-topic again but if anyone feels like reading the liner notes (http://www.chudahs-corner.com/liners/index.php?catalog=PSCN-5044%7E5) to the Gun Hazard OST, it's really funny. While CT gave Mitsuda a stomach ulcera, GH made him shit blood! :/
-
Just curious; does anyone else plan on listening to these? The Compendium was created out of legendary impatience, but we'll hold off if someone wants to contribute.
-
I don't think we can use Seiken Densetsu 3 music. Vargose said that the Secret of Mana family seems to be incompatible.
Earlier, I remembered that JCE3000GT imported spcs from Romancing Saga 2 into FF6. I think it can also be imported into CT, so here's another game's music we can use.
http://www.snesmusic.org/v2/profile.php?profile=set&selected=15866
-
I just read his topic, and it looks like Dynami Tracer works too. I'll listen to these two soundtracks tonight. I encourage at least one more person to listen to all of them PLEASE.
Dynami Tracer
Title - This is a pretty badass song. If the instruments translate well, it could easily be some bad dude's theme. Jeez, I want to hear how this sounds in Chrono Trigger. I am so burning this to my next CD. Freaking whoa.
Twin Star 2 - And this is Title sped up. If we used this music for some kind of level, this could humorously be used if the party has to escape or some other crisis occurs.
Sand Planet - It has a pretty solid arrangement. It could do for a 2302 A.D. overworld if we didn't go with the "rising spirit of youth" one from RS3.
Victory 2 - It's quirky enough to work somewhere humorously.
Romancing SaGa 2
Prologue (Part 3) - This is sufficiently dark for the DBT.
Prologue (Part 4) - This is actiony. It might have a use somewhere.
Song of Everlasting Battles - A reflective piece. Jeez, am I going to like everything in this soundtrack...
Empire of Avalon - Another 2302 A.D. idea.
Empire's Front Line - Porre march? It sounds a little formal, though.
Another Country's Town - Maybe.
Mermaid Legend - You got it; Entity dungeon.
Sinkin Ship - DBT, though it doesn't have much flair.
Last Dungeon - DBT
Last Battle - This is dramatic.
Successive Emperor - Another march.
-
I was also thinking Mermaid Legend was good. But is it too peaceful?
What types of songs do we need in the game?
I know there's Entity Dungeon, DBT, and maybe Porre town theme.
-
For the porre town theme, could we try and make the Guardia Castle theme more darker?
Or maybe the Imperial theme from FF6.
-
And 11998 B.C. overworld, I suppose. We could have something new or two for the Reptites, and maybe a general crisis theme that can replace A Shot of Crisis. It's all in the air.
I think once the suggestions are in, we'll round them all up according to what they might be used for. I'll upload .spcs and link them to the song names so everyone can listen. Then we'll narrow it down from there.
-
I've added a list of unused locations and maps up to location FF. And man, there are a ton. Once the music is wrapped up, we'll generate a list of maps and location we need to create then, fill them in. And I'll edit the changelog to make it more organized and visually appealing.
-
I'm already using Manoria locations, just not the Entrance
-
There are a bunch more unused maps, it's just that they have empty pointers and you need to use a hex editor to give them proper pointers for them to work.
-
I've finished listening to the DynamiTracer and RS2 soundtracks. No song really caught my attention, they're all quite different (and sometimes...bland) compared to the Chrono songs.
-
Before I make a post with individual .spcs uploaded for reference and commentary...what are the fates of these songs?
23. A Shot of Crisis
This can be traded for one of our new crisis themes from Front Mission: Gun Hazard.
27. People Who Threw Away the Will to Live
44. Burn! Bobonga!
58. Black Dream
62. Festival of Stars
72. Prison Tower
Drip-drops aren't much of a song, and silence would work equally well.
75. Lavos Scream
...I guess we'll need this somewhere.
-
I don't know if this has been mentioned before, but should we use Kefka's laugh(FFVI) for king zeal?
it's a possibility i'm throwing out there if it already hasn't.
-
I don't know if this has been mentioned before, but should we use Kefka's laugh(FFVI) for king zeal?
it's a possibility i'm throwing out there if it already hasn't.
Perhaps... The only thing is, it's so recognizable by Chrono Trigger's (and, subsequently, Crimson Echoes's) target fanbase. At least with Front Mission and Romancing Saga, most NTSB/PAL gamers/RPG players haven't really been introduced to their music, so it should be somewhat easy to disguise them with CT's instruments. Kefka's laugh, on the other hand, is infamous across all language/region barriers.
-
So the question is, do we want the subtle tribute effect or the never before heard effect?
-
I don't think the clown laugh fits King Zeal's personality anyway...
-
Out of the remaining songs on that list, I think we can trash Burn! Bobonga! and find uses for the rest of the songs. This gives us 11 song slots total. I'll prepare the big post now.
-
Songs to be Used that Won't Take Up Slots
021 Delightful Spekkio (Flute Does Not Fade Note-To-Note)
035 The Hidden Truth (Longer Intro)
052 Lavos Heartbeat And Grunt (those human screams are quite scary, and unexpected)
062 The Brink Of Time (Higher Pitch)
Mystery of the Past isn't really needed (either version).
Songs to be Used for Sure
Chrono Trigger Prerelease
040 - Tyrano Lair (Unused)
049 - Keeper's Dome
Radical Dreamers
Under the Moonlgiht
Frozen Flame
Portal to Open Grounds
The Girl Who Stole the Stars
Far Promise ~ Dream Shore
Final Fantasy 6
The Fierce Battle (against optional boss)
Songs with Possible Applications to Fill Remaining 3 Slots
Porre March
Final Fantasy 6 - Troops March On (http://ce.herograw.org/MusicTest/ff6-112.spc)
Front Mission - The Evils of War (http://ce.herograw.org/MusicTest/fm-07.spc)
Romancing SaGa 3 - Field (http://ce.herograw.org/MusicTest/rs3-111.spc)
Romancing SaGa 3 - Mikhail's Theme (http://ce.herograw.org/MusicTest/rs3-108.spc)
2302 A.D. / Shopping Mall
Gun Hazard - A Store Keeper (http://ce.herograw.org/MusicTest/gh-1-10.spc)
Treasure Conflix - Introduction (http://ce.herograw.org/MusicTest/tcx-02.spc)
Battle and Crisis
Front Mission - Rage! Rage! Rage! (http://ce.herograw.org/MusicTest/fm-30.spc)
Front Mission - Take the Offensive (http://ce.herograw.org/MusicTest/fm-06.spc)
Gun Hazard - A Running Fight (http://ce.herograw.org/MusicTest/gh-2-02.spc)
Darkness Beyond Time
Gun Hazard - Approach to a Shrine (http://ce.herograw.org/MusicTest/gh-2-21.spc)
Gun Hazard - Sorrowful Karion (http://ce.herograw.org/MusicTest/gh-1-24.spc)
Romancing SaGa 3 - Tower of the Godly King (http://ce.herograw.org/MusicTest/rs3-218.spc)
Entity Dungeon
Front Mission - Mercenaries (http://ce.herograw.org/MusicTest/fm-05.spc)
Front Mission - Twilight (http://ce.herograw.org/MusicTest/fm-19.spc)
Romancing SaGa 3 - Underwater Palace (http://ce.herograw.org/MusicTest/rs3-305.spc)
Porre Lab / Infiltration
Front Mission - Shop (http://ce.herograw.org/MusicTest/fm-24.spc)
Gun Hazard - Invasion (http://ce.herograw.org/MusicTest/gh-1-20.spc)
Gun Hazard - Death in Broad Daylight (http://ce.herograw.org/MusicTest/gh-2-09.spc)
Other
Gun Hazard - Blue Sky (http://ce.herograw.org/MusicTest/gh-1-30.spc) (Sadness)
Romancing SaGa 2 - Empire of Avalon (http://ce.herograw.org/MusicTest/rs2-03.spc) (Reflection)
Romancing SaGa 3 - Ice Lake (http://ce.herograw.org/MusicTest/rs3-222.spc) (11998 B.C.)
Romancing SaGa 3 - Leonid's Castle (http://ce.herograw.org/MusicTest/rs3-224.spc) (Terra Tower, dungeon)
Treasure Conflix - Unused 4 (http://ce.herograw.org/MusicTest/tcx-b-04.spc) (Darkness)
-
I was going to make my picks, but really, this sucks. We have 3 songs left after Radical Dreamers. What can we cut out of CT?
-
I thought we could add as many songs as there is free space in the rom? (not that I know much about music hacking though)
-
I thought we could add as many songs as there is free space in the rom? (not that I know much about music hacking though)
Geiger actually once said that the game's hardcoded to 83 songs. Even if it weren't, you'd have to move the SPC pointer table and instrument table too to make room.
-
Chapter Sixteen: (Stop the Porre Lab)
With the Masamune in history, 602 AD now returns to peace, but King Guardia in 1002 is still dead since this was caused by King Zeal. The fact that Belthasar doesn't let Marle use the TDC to revive her father is justified by the robots/Vanguard "incident". Again, Belthasar doesn't have TTI, so he doesn't know the Vanguard, but the incident still happened with the robots (allowing for the Proto 5-02C side-quest later).
This chapter was a side-quest but I think the plot is amplified by having it mandatory, especially if the Porre cyborg is involved. He effectively introduced the game events, so he needs to "return" into the plot somehow, doesn't he?
- 2302 - The party return to Chronopolis, where Marle argues with Belthasar about saving her father's life. Belthasar reveals that he was soon to die anyway. He tells the party they can rest or return to the present while he's trying to locate King Zeal. The party feel like they should check Medina 1002 after all that happened.
How would Belthasar know that originally, King Guardia would have died not long after?
-
Unless Zeality thought about something special, I think Belthasar just refers to the King's elderliness, to the fact that he was soon to die of old age.
---
I've quickly skimmed through the plot again, and I think the Porre Agent's relevance could be increased by involving him in the Reptite timeline events.
The Porre Agent was last seen in 1,002 A.D. returning to Porre with an engine for the Chimera and a bunch of data from the future. After that, we're not supposed to see him again until the Porre Lab infiltration in the Medina Forest Ruins.
I propose that he reappears earlier, in Chapter 9 (An Emerald Dream in 1,002 A.D.). The timeline is turned into a Reptite timeline, but according to TTI, the Porre Agent should still appear in 1,002 A.D. no matter the changes (like Belthasar who appears in the future whether the Apocalypse happened or not).
Thus, during their exploration, Crono, Glenn and Magus meet the Agent. He's confused and thinks the Dispatch Chamber sent him in a wrong time/place. Some things happen (I'm not sure what) in addition to what we already have for the chapter. A fight with the Agent may happen, but he quickly realizes that they should ally themselves or something. Eventually, when the party defeats Coyopa, the Agent goes into the portal. The party jump in too, and find him in Prehistory busted by King Zeal at the Lavos crater.
The rest of the short Chapter 10 plays normally (choice between Ayla and King Zeal, etc.). Chapter 11 is also unchanged, except that when Marle returns to Chronopolis, she finds the Porre Agent also bedridden, in addition to Crono, Glenn, Magus.
Not sure what can happen after that. The Agent could play some role in Chapter 12 (Cakhula's interrogation). Or in Chapter 15 (the Guardia-Porre-Medina meeting). Or in both or somewhere else...
Ideas, thoughts everyone?
-
Should he die in 65000000 B.C. or should his busted up body remain there? I guess we're limited to how long he can stay in 1002 A.D. at the factory since Time Bastard would make him shift out at the moment he found the portal on Terra Tower...the idea of him getting left behind in prehistory is appealing. Not sure where to go with it, though.
-
I'd like at least four more slots...I'm going to look at the track list soon. That'd give us one song for each category and an extra.
-
What should we do about Reptile 1999 AD/2302 AD?
There are some problems because you're not supposed to be able to walk around in the 1999 A.D. map!
If you view the select screen, it says the year is "1002 AD". If you save, it lists the era as "???" on the save screen.
If such a save is your most recent save, then on the load screen, the era section will be blank until you move the selection to a save in a proper era.
BTW, I hacked Chrono Trigger to add another overworld, and it had the same problems, minus the select screen part. It just didn't display a year in the select screen.
-
Damn, those string issues are like a Rubik's Cube game: it's hard to solve one part without screwing the other sides... There are several problems combined. Let's see... Here's what we have currently:
"Era" in the save screen "Year" in the select screen
64999998 Pre-historic 65000000 B.C
11998 Dark Ages {Epoch} B.C.
1 Dark Ages 11999
602 Middle Ages A.D. 600
1002 Present A.D. 1002
1002 (Reptite) Chronopolis Future
1999/2302 ??? A.D. 1002
First, we can solve some stuff by correcting the strings (who's got the rom??):
"Era" in the save screen "Year" in the select screen
64999998 Pre-historic 64999998 B.C
11998 Dark Ages {Epoch} B.C.
1 Dark Ages A.D. 1
602 Middle Ages A.D. 602
1002 Present A.D. 1002
1002 (Reptite) Present A.D. 1002
1999/2302 Future A.D. {Epoch}
This corrects the wrong names and years, though a problem remains: "Dark Ages" shows for both 11998 BC and 1 AD. Does anyone know how we could solve that? Having "Antiquity" for 1 AD would be neat, though I suppose "Dark Ages" can decently apply to 1 AD if we can't change the name.
As for the "Chronopolis in 1999" issue, I'll try to see if I can add/remove its tiles from the map with a Memory flag and some SetTile commands. The trick works for the other overworlds (Vanguard Post), so I guess there's no reason why it should not work in 1999, though I didn't try yet.
Then there's still the other 1999 bugs. There's the one that you mentioned Vehek (blank name in the save screen), and also, the "year" string for 1999 is stuck on the left side on the screen in the Select map instead of being in the middle. Dunno how to solve those two... Ultimately, those are quite minor bugs, but it'd be nice to solve them.
-
We can always ditch the 1002 A.D. overworld. Chrono'99 proposed the idea of having one huge interconnected system of maps. It hasn't been done in Chrono Trigger save for Algetty, so it'd be a roughly new concept. Would this fix the problem by eliminating the need for an overworld?
-
I suppose it's the best idea. We have 7 potential overworld slots to use, but it's not like we *have* to use all of them.
We could still use that 1999 overworld for some cutscenes though, if we figure out the commands in the overworld code.
-
Oops...in case anyone is shocked, I of course mean the 1002 A.D. reptite overworld.
-
Oops...in case anyone is shocked, I of course mean the 1002 A.D. reptite overworld.
*Whew*, for a moment there I thought you ment normal 1002.
-
My ideas:
* That stuff the Gurus need for the CB could be explained as being too important in the time of Zeal, enough that the party couldn't take it undetected. The main materials are hyperconductors and conduits for magical energy, created over two decades by continuous enrichmenet and saturation. They'll be needed to handle the magical intensity to create the Cb in a timely manner. But they note that Dalton maintained a serious interest in the conduits and probably went searching for them.
* The Chrono Break...I think we elected not to use it, but if this is the case, should we go with Dalton NOT having the materials? In any case, I will have Lucca ask Gaspar what the CB was, and he'll reply somethin to the effect of using a nuclear warhead to do gardening work...
* The Porre agent...the only thing I'm worried about now is that the party still have to fight him despite rescuing him to Chronopolis under the current ideas. But I do have one idea: the agent requests to return after Lucca interrogates him ethically. the party later find him in the laboratory as usual and Lucca tries to reason with him. However, it can't be done -- Luccia's parents have completely brainwashed him. This sends Lucca into a rage, and makes her want to ensure that all robotic beings have an indomitable measure of free will and their own aspirations as well (cue FATE's desire to have its paradise and be reincarnated). Does that sound good?
-
The brainwashing plot-device in itself might seem a bit overused. It's used once in CT (Atropos), three times in CC (the Chronopolitans, Wazuki, Kid), also in Xenogears (Hammer, a Demi-Human who got cyborgized) and probably other RPGs. But it does appear fitting and interesting here though, with the connections to Lucca and FATE... I don't know.
~
Anyhow, I'm currently in the process of re-reading the entire original Plot thread. That's frigging long (I started Tuesday), but it's worth it. I feel like some good stuff might have been lost in the huge mass of texts, we might be able to retrieve some.
Also, looking back, I'm starting to think the current plot lacks something... The original plot towards the end was rather un-Chrono and unfeasible, but it still had a quite grandiose climax to it. In the current plot, the party goes to kill King Zeal, kills him, and goes home... A real, unexpected and smashing climax seems to be lacking. Quite like the last battle in CC, actually.
Personally, I think I'm not against putting the race of Lavos back, albeit in a toned down version (perhaps they could be dead and alluded to, instead of being seen and spoken to). I know that's a heavy issue though, and I need to re-reading the whole thing to have more concrete propositions.
LATE EDIT: Even Orcha was sort of brainwashed, turning into the Hell's Cook.
-
One easy way to hasten things would be to put a timer on the Time Devourer, or maybe revive the idea that something dire will happen to the real world if they don't hurry up and get to the Darkness Beyond Time. But I'm not a fan of point of no returns...The DBT is going to be pretty grand, with tons of tilesets and hopefully a very frightening one at the end, with Schala and Lavos merging...
-
There's a problem with the Frozen Flame warps (chapter 6 and 20). At the Lavos Crater, the entire cast is supposed to be sent through time, but only 3 characters are present during the event. A simple solution to this would be to have Belthasar send the 3 non-active characters to the crater to help the party... but this would make the choice between saving Ayla or the planet quite superfluous then, since a whopping amount of 6 persons would be present to do both actions at the same time!
To add to the complication, there's the Frozen Flame confrontation before the nightmares in chapter 20, where the 6-7 characters are also supposed to be all present. This makes the two scenes sort of redundant: when the entire cast will be present in Chapter 20, the player will immediately expect the Flame to warp them in different places (even though it's illusions there and not eras).
~
Yet another issue, which may be more opinion-based this time, is what happens in these nightmare sequences. Looking back, I'm starting to think the 6 nightmares are too similar to each other (only Ayla's one has a kind of twist): some NPC comes and expresses an exaggerated, negative consequence of the character's actions, and someone dies. The patterns are the same, with only the NPCs and eras differing. The nightmares, if they are what they're named, should revolve more about the characters' repressed fears and desires, rather than some nickpicked consequences of their quest that we know are heavily distorted and far from the truth.
Of course, pointing at things is easier than coming up with solutions... I'll have to think about it. Someone had proposed that Marle and Lucca could exchange their lifes in their nightmares (without meeting each other though). Marle would be a happy commoner, but would quickly realize that she shouldn't run away from her position of Queen considering all the current (and coming...) political troubles. Her realization would be her victory over the Flame's vain offer. Lucca would gain all the benefits of being Queen, but would be angered because Crono would still not love her... Er, yeah, this Lucca example is lamer I guess. I do think the Marle example is decent though. The sequences are very short and battles are not necessary.
-
What if it showed them sort of what will happen if they have the Frozen Flame. They could have what they ever wanted but they have to try and fight it off or their wants will consume them.
-
Well, the CT cast knows about the dangerousness of the Frozen Flame more than the CC characters, so they probably want to have nothing to do with possessing the Flame. But yeah, "what they ever wanted" is what I was thinking of. More precisely, the Flame wouldn't be proposing or granting them their wishes. Rather, it would be showing them what they seem to want and ask them why they want it (I mean, metaphorically, not with an actual textbox), and the characters would be answering the Flame with their actions, whether they got it "right" or "wrong".
What I mean is that each sequence should be so that they could be summed up with a very short quote from the characters, like in CC, except that this time the quote will be in the form of a scene instead of a text.
-
I'm getting weary of the planning phase, so we can all throw down the passion of youth and keep this discussion alive...
~
- That brainwashing thing does seem a bit dumb, since if anything Luccia's parents would WANT to listen to the cyborg to hear news about the future. It's made me think of a new possibility. Perhaps the agent's internal workings are damaged; to keep him alive, Chronopolis have to replace some of the firmware in his processing unit. When he returns to the laboratory, a diagnostic is done and causes problems, and the few words the cyborg does speak sound like gibberish to the scientists. So, they simply do a sort of formatting, which also sets the cyborg up to fight them again.
- I gave it some thought today, and I think that with a sentient Lavos, we could add the grandiose quality by having...statements appear in the Darkness Beyond Time. Very dark, very deep things about being totally alone, subject to darkness...the player might infer King Zeal is stating these things. They'd pop up in new areas. But then, at the confrontation, it would be revealed that these are the thoughts of the Lavos. We'd have the huge honor of giving Lavos character development, and he could even allude to members of his species by extension.
- In line with a previous suggestion, is there something...we could do to make it seem like they need to hurry? If the lost plot line of Chrono Cross is considered, the Time Devourer needed Serge. Well, in CE, it'll have Schala AND King Zeal, meaning the fusion might take place pretty quick. Although this still does nothing to the outside world.
Chrono'99 is about to post so I'll stop here until he finishes.
-
Yeah, I spent some time formulating my idea. I'm posting this and going to bed, so sorry that I don't reply to your post now.
This is about Chronopolis:
CC states that it was the central regime which established Chronopolis, in 2,300 A.D. So, I guess the place in CT:CE has to be known from this government after all. Belthasar would certainly not let the regime be aware of his creation of the TDC and Monitoring Station though. How do we solve this issue?
I think we could have the TDC and Monitoring Station be on a secret floor known to and accessible only to Belthasar, Atropos, and the party. The Chronopolitan scientists would be above still debating about the feasibility of time-travel and the existence of Lavos. I'm not sure about how people would "feel" about this solution though. I mean, a secret floor in a secret military base, which is in fact not even a military base... is it okay or too much?
Or maybe we could let the TDC and MS where they are and let the scientists be aware of them. They are the most intelligent geniuses of the time, so maybe they all agree to lie to the central regime about their achievements? One would expect Belthasar to have a less risky solution though... (or is he already mind-controlling everybody in what there is of El Nido? :shock:)
-
Here we go.
- That brainwashing thing does seem a bit dumb, since if anything Luccia's parents would WANT to listen to the cyborg to hear news about the future. It's made me think of a new possibility. Perhaps the agent's internal workings are damaged; to keep him alive, Chronopolis have to replace some of the firmware in his processing unit. When he returns to the laboratory, a diagnostic is done and causes problems, and the few words the cyborg does speak sound like gibberish to the scientists. So, they simply do a sort of formatting, which also sets the cyborg up to fight them again.
- I gave it some thought today, and I think that with a sentient Lavos, we could add the grandiose quality by having...statements appear in the Darkness Beyond Time. Very dark, very deep things about being totally alone, subject to darkness...the player might infer King Zeal is stating these things. They'd pop up in new areas. But then, at the confrontation, it would be revealed that these are the thoughts of the Lavos. We'd have the huge honor of giving Lavos character development, and he could even allude to members of his species by extension. Too cheesy? If done right, it could be a little disturbing, just right for the DBT.
- In line with a previous suggestion, is there something...we could do to make it seem like they need to hurry? If the lost plot line of Chrono Cross is considered, the Time Devourer needed Serge. Well, in CE, it'll have Schala AND King Zeal, meaning the fusion might take place pretty quick. Although this still does nothing to the outside world. Which leads me to an idea:
King Zeal notes cryptically that at least his vision of a new Zeal may come true, even if it would be cut short by the Time Devourer's completion. He secretly showed a group of Mystics the future and taught them the Atash Kedah's opposite (though they can't use it at max capacity). He also created an elemental artifact for Sargon and the others to use to begin Zeal once again. The party realize the storm is beginning and discover the Mystics. Magus comes in with two Chronopolis agents to attempt to seal the power of the Mystics for that generation, since they cannot be dissuaded. "You unlocked their power in your future...and now you shut it away in the past." They then discover Sargon meeting with several old Zealians at his house, excited and talking about the new future. Magus then destroys the power source despite huge protests. Sargon condemnds the "Prophet", as Magus tries to explain that the world needs to find a different path, and that the artifact was emplaced by an arcane force. Sargon argues that no one has a right to impose upon others what is best for the future, or maintain what might have originally happened. He argues that Zeal would have restored humanity to its peak. Magus shrugs him off, but as the party is existing...we hear the following.
Lucca wonders what does give their party the right to dictate how time should be, and what denies Sargon that right. Lucca starts to come to the conclusion that might is right...they possess temporal technology. But Glenn arrives to deliver a stirring speech.
"No, might is not right. Lavos has demonstrated that well enough. He possessed enough strength to wipe out the world, yet through our resolve, we were able to send him packing and allow life to continue. We may obey no authority but our own when time traveling, but this is not necessarily bad. We have done what we believed to be right. We believe in humanity's right to live and flourish, and humanity has done that -- each person dictating how he or she will live and affect the grand scope of history. We merely have ensured that right. Some of us have acted in our own interests --"
Magus: ...
Lucca: ...
"but we have still summarily fought to give life a chance. You might ask, why don't we try to save every wronged person in history? Why don't we see how it all turns out in this little universe millions of years from know? Well, who knows where humanity will lead itself through history. Perhaps it's our belief in ourselves and our desire to make things right that led the planet to dream of us and enable this power. Time travel is an strength like any other -- as long as it is in the hands of noble people with high aim and, above all else, the power of discretion -- it can bring about wonderful things. And we have that discretionary vision and focus to only do what we truly believe in, and nothing else. Even without Belthasar's messing around time and mistake of reviving King Zeal, Lavos would still have been creeping away down there in the Darkness Beyond Time. And despite all our mistakes -- all our failures, shortcomings, and doubts -- we once again have the power to eradicate an evil influence in time. Let us use it -- not because we merely have it, but because we can unleash some good in this world that others cannot. Lavos -- the Time Devourer -- whatever you wish to call it, is poised to once again snuff out the aspirations of living beings to discover and love this magnificent and complex universe. And we are the only ones poised to stop it. Time travel is dangerous -- but here, we don't only feel like doing it because it is "right" -- we are compelled to do it as ones who believe in humanity and the growth and understanding of our reality. And just maybe, this world can be improved a little as we struggle through our journey. So do not falter; let us ride again on the Wings of Time to fight for what we hold important and beautiful. Let us follow Crono's example and charge into the unknown to liberate our future. The Darkness Beyond Time, a black dream with no beginning or end -- is but our finest battleground! Let us not be late for our appointment with destiny!"
- Chapter 6 Frozen Flame warp -- we could actually have a couple rooms before King Zeal in which the others could be trapped in...or something. I originally thinking about having Belthasar say "they're en route," but this invokes time travel problems, so I'm trying to limit direct future influence aside from communication. But it seems like a solution might be simple. The first room might have injured Iokans in it -- the three non-player party members will stay behind despite Belthasar's protest. Then, King Zeal can simply note in his speech that he's caused a cave-in to seal it shut, meaning the other party members are trapped. To avoid coding headaches, this first room could be a cut scene. Otherwise, if the player switched characters and came back, w'd have to have some coding to make sure Glenn couldn't be IN the party and hELPING the Iokans both...
- Chapter 20 Frozen Flame warp -- we could simply explain that before, Lavos wanted to get the heroes out of his way. This time, Lavos will try a different strategy of breaking them down. The other party members could come in at the bottom of the screen shortly before the Flame is engaged (that is, IF the palette problem can be solved by not having them all on screen at once).
- Frozen Flame sequences -- Yeah, I sorta worried about that too. From Chrono Cross, it seems the Flame tells Serge's party something diametrically opposed to what they believe in. Viper is told that we're all here to fight and destroy to survive; Marcy is told that she's a halfling to ridicule her...so let's see what it would say to the Chrono team.
- Crono - You will kill others forever and never succeed in bringing peace.
- Marle - You will never escape the horrors of this world and your royal status of suffering them.
- Lucca - Science is only a tool to be used by people with greater power than yourself.
- Glenn - Guardia will fall and your knightly ideals and struggles will mean nothing.
- Robo - You will never be accepted by robots or humans.
- Magus - You are powerless to save your sister or avenge your kingdom.
- Ayla - Life means nothing but killing others to survive.
So this concludes the big plot post. Discussion? And is that speech too much?
-
Should Marle comment on the DBT upon entering? She has been there once before.
-
Good idea. That would help us explain away that Marle disappearance.
-
- The cyborg formatting sounds good, though could you clarify what happens to him between the end of the Reptite timeline and his comeback in the Porre Lab? I think I'm missing something (why does he leave Chronopolis, if he does go there). Oh and, why not give him back his name, Sorin? Kasmir sounds better than Serran too, I think.
- King Zeal's attempt to create a new kingdom is very good. This gives a concrete insight on his wishes and develops all the other stuff (even Sargon!). The speech is quite long but could fit if we put some drama and a big crowd of people listening, etc. I'm not sure why it's Glenn who stands up and suddenly gives this speech though. Among the crowd would be Mystics, but still Glenn would be more prone to act like this in 602 A.D. than in 11,998 B.C. He seems a bit like he was aware of the events and is reading a written speech here. Also, how will the entire sequence be played? Will there be battles?
- About Chapter 20: Perhaps only the 3 sequences corresponding to the 3 active characters should be shown? This would favor replay value over any possible redundancy.
~
And now, something even longer than above!
I've finally managed to formulate something that was blurrily on my mind since a while. This is another take on the origins of Lavos, wrapping some stuff about the Frozen Flame's purpose and the overarching CC plot, thanks to all the site's gathered theories and information:
Lavos did not only evolve the human species, Lavos IS humanity. He represents the desire of evolution taken to an extreme. He wants to keep on evolving and improving himself continuously but too wildly: if we could ask him why he wants that, he'll probably have no answer to give. This is kind of the same thing for humans:
Kid:
So that's Terra Tower's
final, true form...
In the end, we're all the
same...
Everyone dreams of bein'
greater, more powerful...
They want self-improvement, scientific progress, etc., but where are they heading to with all this? The same question can be asked for the Reptites and every other living beings too, but the game will focus on humanity because they're the ones who got in contact with the Frozen Flame. In CC, the humans are compared to Lavos; throughout CE we could hint at the reverse, that Lavos can also be compared to humans. The original Lavoids would have originated on a planet in which humanity was so advanced, yet so selfish and destructive, that they evolved into Lavoids (this would take thousands of millennias of course). In addition to what we know of the Lavoid life cycle, the humans would also fit somewhere in there, being evolved by Lavoids, but also becoming Lavoids. The Chrono planet basically risks the same fate if the humans don't take more responsability in their free will. In a way, I guess this cycle is comparable to the Hindo-Buddhistic notion of Samsara (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samsara), the wheel of perpetual reincarnations.
Maybe we could put this little scene in some nightmare or DBT area too:
On Lavos' form in the Defiled World: I'd wanted to implement this idea a while ago, and this is a perfect place for it. Remember the demon sculpture on the top of Magus' summoning altar in the original game? Lavos' form here will basically amount to that brought to life. It's a twisted form that reflects Lavos' sick desires
Some character could note that it's a twisted form that reflects Lavos' sick desires, but that also depicts him as a humanoid (despite the horns and extra arms).
Now, about the Frozen Flame's origins. Its creation was actually accidental. In order to evolve, Lavos just has to slumber in the planet's core, he doesn't need anything else. However, a piece of his shell splintered by mere chance and remained on the surface. Lavos never wanted other beings to use the Flame's power, so he wanted to retrieve it.
Lavos succeeded in recovering the Flame in 12,000 B.C. in the original timeline, when he tricked Queen Zeal into setting forth the conditions of the Ocean Palace disaster (yes, this is an adaptation of DBoruta's theory, we'll have to thank him hugely). After retrieving the Flame, Lavos simply destroyed it, or something, because he already has similar powers to it. However, in Keystone T-1, the same attempt failed because of Crono's intervention (in Keystone T-2, the TTI-fied Lavos pulls Chronopolis back in time to try a second time to retrieve the Flame, but that's after CT:CE).
Yet, simultaneously to these attempts, and all the more after them, Lavos also communicates with the person possessing the Flame, if this person is fitting or special enough. This person would be the Arbiter of Time, someone Lavos discusses with and gives a chance to stop his never-ending quest for evolution, i.e. the mediator between Lavos and the planet's inhabitants. Lavos will, explicitely or not, interrogate him about the meaning of life and their purpose in the universe (Lavos' and the Arbiter's purpose, which is the same). Whether the Arbiter can answer those questions or not, he will eventually have to make a choice: either merge with Lavos and join him in his quest to find the answers, or refuse to do so and possibly remain alive if they're strong-minded enough, in which case Lavos will still destroy the planet sooner or later and continue his life cycle anyway. King Zeal and Schala were the latest Arbiters. There were a certain amount of Arbiters before them too, and whether they fused with Lavos or not, they all contributed to add to Lavos's sentience and knowledge of things (Lavoids are all sentient, but this particular Lavos is even more...cognizant thanks to his contact with the surface species; there is a bit of the "Reconciling differences" theme in here).
The last point is the defeat of Lavos in Chrono Trigger. This has viciously altered Lavos' perspective on the universe. Instead of wanting to seek some metaphysical knowledge, he has given up and began to wish for the destruction of all space-time instead. In CT:CE, King Zeal is the Arbiter of Time. He's supposed to have the choice to not fuse with Lavos, and hugely prefer a new Zeal Kingdom actually, but he eventually falls. Perhaps he could somehow come to a conclusion reminiscent of Miguel's speech (about res nullius, fusing with eternity, etc.). Whether it's because of his madness, Lavos' will, or his conscious choice, we don't know and we defeat him before the fusion anyhow.
At the end of CC, Serge uses the Chrono Cross to "heal" the Time Devourer. Whether it answers Lavos' questions or not, we again don't know, but the liberated Schala does seem to have grasped something deep about the meaning of life.
So, that's it. It can be gradually explained throughout the game, with the big Arbiter/choice and alien/human thingies being revealed in the DBT mentioned pop-ups. I suppose this still doesn't exactly hasten things at the end of the game, though perhaps Lavos at North Cape could actually be calling the cast to the DBT to expose them his immense dilemma... this would at least make them and the player curious, and give the Entity's test another reason to be (to make sure they don't suddenly agree with Lavos' philosophy or something like that).
This interpretation explains a lot about Lavos, and gives him some personality, while still keeping the focus on humanity and the struggle of free will and fate, as it is in the rest of the series. But of course, that's a suggestion. Thoughts on it?
-
Humanizing Lavos, I like it.
-
Well, like Gaspar said, we've got more speed now and less haste. The Glenn speech and the Lavos darkness do well to brin the themes of Chrono Trigger and Chrono Cross both to a dramatic finish. I don't think we could possibly go wrong here, and I'm merely a bit worried that it'd be tough to make a new sequel now! I guess I should get this stuff added to the revised plot outline and then check it over one last time. Then we can move on to location planning. Although...one last thing. What should be done with Ayla? I guess the original idea was, if you save her, she's with you from that point on; if you do not, she comes back after Glenn goes and gets the hides off the mountain in that rest period.
-
I forgot about the Chronopolis thing. We can resolve it in the ending. The Chronopolis chief notes that Belthasar appeared out of "nowhere" with the Time Research Lab. Perhaps we can justify it by Belthasar noting at the end that he's going to renovate Chronopolis for his ultimate plan, and that he'll need the Central Regime's vast resources for a grand experiment he's going to conduct. He's going to reveal his "private lab" after dismantling certain aspects to the Central Regime, which will jump on the opportunity and move things to the sea of El Nido. This will also enable Belthasar to use the Frozen Flame.
Does that sound good? Right now, I think we are in the sea of El Nido, but how then do we have a road to the Comet Islands? That's pretty weird...I guess a highway would have been possible and might have been left behind in the Time Crash, if we must.
Well, before I add all this, I just need a vote of approval.
-
The Chronopolis and Ayla things sound good. For Ayla, I thought we would allow the possibility to just make her die, so that she'd be the optional character of the game (like Magus was in CT). But this is probably because I don't really care about her... I guess it's better to keep her alive.
Oh and speaking of the central regime, this reminds me of the Vanguard Apocalypse scenario. I always liked the theme of Romantic ideals of old slowly falling into absolute totalitarism (cf. Germany). I thought there was no decent place for it in the new plot though, and Chapter 12 is the closest adaptation we have. But perhaps we could actually make it fit even more? Instead of the Vanguard and Serran creating a central regime, we would have a rebellion and Cakulha try to disrupt an already-existent Vanguard central regime. The options would then be:
Option 1: Cakulha teleports the party and the rebels outside and blow up the building...committing suicide.
Option 2: The party defeats Cakulha in battle, but the rebels launch the missile in the meantime and blow up some city.
Option 3: Cakulha leaves the place and goes to fight King Zeal; the rebels launch the missile but the party has the time to board the Epoch and destroy it in mid-air.
Either way, the rebellion never manages to overthrow the regime (at least not in 2,302 A.D.), though the few robots present among them will allow for the Vanguard to be aware of Chronopolis. The only problem there is concerning this version is that since Glenn doesn't create the Vanguard in the reverted 602 A.D. (after Chapter 15), we have to fix something. To explain why the central regime still exists in the CC timeline, we would have to make the party realize after Chapter 15 that the Vanguard still exist, except they were created by knight Renault (or someone else) instead of Glenn.
I think this scenario would be a perfect illustration of the theme of humanity's corruption, but I'm not sure if the Renault solution is credible or not.
EDIT: Or perhaps, the central regime could still have risen without the Vanguard? We'd imply the regime is less strong, but still existent. I'm really not sure.
~
In all cases, I do think Renault, Luther, and Roget should be in 602 A.D. They're not really needed in the Present, whereas they could counsel Glenn during the Mystic/Porrean/everyone genocide.
I also spotted a small plot-hole: Glenn must put the past Masamune in 11,998 B.C. instead of 1 A.D., else there'd be some complication with Time Bastard in the Middle Ages. I had chosen 1 A.D. just to involve the era a bit more in the plot, but I guess it's not possible this way.
~
This thing will probably be my last major suggestion of alteration of the plot:
Why would everyone congratulate Crono and co. as heroes? I know that King Gaurdia welcomes them back at the end of CT as heroes, but he has to believe his own daughter, and he had the power to make a large celebration, but do you think everyone would suddenly believe that a group of teenagers saved the world when they have no proof? That'd be like if I told everyone here that I'd gone into the future and saved the world. I think that, rather than being praised as heroes, the crew should be marked as insane. Glenn had a high position in charge of the knights, or w/e, but I think his tales of time-traveling should be frowned upon (like everyone thinks he's talking about a dream when he talks about it, so they just ignore him when he does, and they pretend he's fine)
Should we make villagers dubious of the party's adventure? The feeling would be especially strong in Porre (except for Sorin and Montcrief) and would be another factor explaining their rising antipathy towards the kingdom's authority.
-
Well the one thing that would make them venerate hte heroes is that Crono and Marle are now royalty. Even if they were a bit incredulous about their achievements, they'd still respect them for being good, strong royal heirs. Not sure about Robo and the others not from 1002 A.D., though.
Would the Cakulha philosophy be the same? And my question is, once the Vanguard is removed from the equation, wouldn't having it happen the same mean the new Vanguard (founded by Renault instead) would know of Chronopolis again? I'm not sure here...
But I see the theme. It ties into the Porre / Guardia conflict. The Vanguard, founded to protect old values, ends up being a bureaucratic, sort of corrupt, evil organization resistant to change and ends up making the world worse off than it could have been. It locks in the traditions of the past in a misguided attempt to ensure human growth, leaving society less open to change to deal with new issues, technology, threats, etc.
-
After pondering the different possibilities we have, I think having the central regime still be existing without the Vanguard is the better solution. If Renault creates the Vanguard, this kind of cheapen Glenn's responsability... Instead, we could have Belthasar note that the central regime still formed without them, and that it's still militaristic but slightly less powerful. The regime wouldn't believe the rumors of the existence of Chronopolis; I guess the Vanguard had believed those rumors because they already suspected that their founder Glenn had been a time-traveler.
As for Cakulha's philosophy... I'm not sure, I suppose many different things are possible. I believe having him not really caring about the rebellion could be good though. He'd be acting like Magus was: just using some conflict to achieve a personal objective (in this case, gathering power to try to find Chronopolis?). During the chapter we'll mention the background of the central regime, which was built after some global nuclear conflict, but we'll also clearly show that the rebellion isn't any better than this regime (they're terrorists after all).
For Chronopolis, maybe we should disconnect the island from the mainland and put some teleporters instead? It may hardly be secret base if it's connected to the world with a highway.
-
Oh and speaking of the central regime, this reminds me of the Vanguard Apocalypse scenario. I always liked the theme of Romantic ideals of old slowly falling into absolute totalitarism (cf. Germany). I thought there was no decent place for it in the new plot though, and Chapter 12 is the closest adaptation we have. But perhaps we could actually make it fit even more? Instead of the Vanguard and Serran creating a central regime, we would have a rebellion and Cakulha try to disrupt an already-existent Vanguard central regime. The options would then be:
Option 1: Cakulha teleports the party and the rebels outside and blow up the building...committing suicide.
Option 2: The party defeats Cakulha in battle, but the rebels launch the missile in the meantime and blow up some city.
Option 3: Cakulha leaves the place and goes to fight King Zeal; the rebels launch the missile but the party has the time to board the Epoch and destroy it in mid-air.
I know my opinion doesn't carry much weight since I've not done any of the hard dev work, but for whatever it's worth, the Vanguard Apocalypse chapter was my favorite part of the original plot mockups, and if it were to be retained in a form loyal to the original concept, that would be slick. My favorite part was the idea of the Epoch flying furious above a bleak futuristic city, trying to chase a missile ahead of it while fending off a pseudo air force behind it. I don't know if TF even allows for that, at this point, but to me it conjured up the most vivid imagery of Hadriel's entire forty-page plot.
-
It was one of the things we could not pull off. With tinkering, we could have an Epoch move around the OW chasing a simple missile sprite like the 1000 A.D. ferry, but it wouldn't be grand. It deserves full cutscene treatment.
-
At the minimum, we can have some close-ups of the Epoch flying with the party on board (cf. the battle against Dalton Plus in CT), and some views taken from a farther distance, with the small Epoch sprite above an ocean tileset (the sprite which is seen under the Black Omen entrance in CT).
I'm fairly certain that we can find other creative ways to illustrate the sequence though. There's the mountain panorama tileset, we could depict the planes there with the "shiny star" sprites moving horizontally. We can also create sprites depicting small planes, seen laterally and/or from above. We might even be able to make a basic view of a city landscape seen from far-above, by graphic-hacking one of the unused tilesets. A lateral close-up of the Epoch, with the characters on it, is also possible (drawing this is not so difficult). An elaborated cutscene with a good music, and switching several times between at least 3 of these screens, will certainly achieve a nice effect.
...I'm sure we'll have fun coding or photoshopping all that (well, I at the least).
-
We could also use the cockpit scenes from when you enter Lavos.
-
Those cockpit scenes are Mode7, so it might be a bad idea.
-
Do we have a problem with mode 7?
-
We currently have no way of hacking Mode7, so if we used it, it'd be the same as it was in the original CT.
-
No way to mess with the graphics then? That just can't be right, they have to be stored in the data somewhere. Maybe we aren't looking in the right place?
-
The mode-7 graphic addresses are listed in the Offset Guide, so it's probably technically possible to change the graphic (the "fire sky" graphic, mainly). We can't change anything else about the mode-7 cutscene though, so we'd be stuck with the screechy sound effect that don't fit the scene.
-
The mode-7 graphic addresses are listed in the Offset Guide, so it's probably technically possible to change the graphic (the "fire sky" graphic, mainly). We can't change anything else about the mode-7 cutscene though, so we'd be stuck with the screechy sound effect that don't fit the scene.
Unless we make that the roar of the missle...
-
Bah, problems have kept me off the computer until now today, which sucks since I always try to post early when everyone's online. I was worried about my new system of preventing corruption (that it'd be too tiresome) but I believe we can just lump huge lists of bugfixes by location and do them all at once instead of gradually cleaning up the entire thing as we go along. CE will thus be built in layers.
-
The mode-7 graphic addresses are listed in the Offset Guide, so it's probably technically possible to change the graphic (the "fire sky" graphic, mainly). We can't change anything else about the mode-7 cutscene though, so we'd be stuck with the screechy sound effect that don't fit the scene.
Unless we make that the roar of the missle...
Well, I'm not against trying. Maybe we can do it. If not, the other screens should probably be good enough.
The new anti-corruption system is probably the best solution. All the solutions are tiresome anyway. And ideally, the next TF will be less prone to corrupting.
As for the plot, there's one thing which we could perhaps add but I'm not sure how: a Dalton / King Zeal reunion. They surely knew each other, and even though we don't know the nature of their relationship, the fact that they never meet back in this story may stand out a bit for the players who would expect a meeting. I have no precise idea of a development, though I think Dalton would probably not be happy to learn about the King's ressurection.
-
From the old simplified Plot Outline:
- 11998 - While testing, Dalton, catches King Zeal's attention, who takes him to his Pocket Dimension.
I don't know if that's still in. Didn't seem to do much in the older plot besides make him not be there when the party rescues Magus.
Also, how does the TDC work gameplay-wise in going to other eras in this version?
-
The eras will be unlocked for the first time when they're introduced into the plot:
1,002 AD (chapter 3)
11,998 BC (chapter 3)
602 AD (chapter 4)
64,999,998 BC (chapter 6)
Ehe, four eras, just enough to fill a textbox. There will probably be only one Gate per era (the 1,002 AD one is in Denadoro). After the party recovers the Epoch in chapter 13, the TDC will be superfluous, but will allow to go to the human 1 AD instead.
-
How will the 11,998 BC gate work, considering where it is?
-
Just to keep track, things we're adding:
- Cyborg's damaged and has processing unit augmented; he returns to 1002 A.D. to gain an understanding of his life, but Porre scientists can't interface and reprogram him
- King Zeal's new Zeal bid and the party's speech, and on the flipside, Lavos's dark statements and tying up the theme of humanity unchecked
- Flame sequences limited to characters present
- Belthasar reveals the Time Research Lab to the Central Regime in the ending
- Holes in Belthasar's history at Chronopolis (about the Fall of Guardia)
- Belthasar stimulates old Gates for the party's use with the TDC until the Epoch is found, except in Zeal; we'll justify this by the fact that an entire time research laboratory is being used to pull them back; it's not like Belthasar can simply just re-open the Gates...it takes a lot of power.
- King Zeal is responsible for the Fall of Guardia.
Things to be clarified:
- The entire Cakulha scenario
- Dalton / King Zeal reunion
- Melchior / Gaspar / Belthasar in the field
My suggestions
- Without awkwardly resurrecting something, the Cakulha thing can be solved if a militant robot launches the missile regardless of Cakulha's decision (except in the scenario in which he launches it anyway). I'm actually utterly lost on this now if anyone wants to re-summarize the proposed plot changes. This idea still has the chase scene...if we have the Epoch that early. I forget.
- Aside from a possible Dreamer's Wing sidequest, we don't have something for a second return to 12001 B.C. Well, if we do something unrelated, the sidequest in that era can end with the party discovering the three Gurus meeting to discuss the prospect of Lavos and other issues. It'd be amazing; we'd see the Gurus before anything Chrono-related even began to happen (before the Entity even effected the Ocean Palace Incident). It would also let them discuss the prospect of Lavos's power going out of control.
A big idea:
The Dalton scenario seems a little weak. Dalton might have some mystical item needed for the Chrono Break, so Magus goes over and blows him away, yet the Chrono Break is deemed unneeded and immediately dropped. Here's my idea.
King Zeal, though aware of Lavos's control at some point, still could not control himself. Lavos and King Zeal both despised Crono, but King Zeal harbored a resentment for Lavos regardless. As King Zeal was given directives through time, he learned of the Chrono Break and paid a visit to Dalton, stealing the item. With some input from Zeal's archives, he was able to construct something akin to the Chrono Break -- a temporally offensive weapon. However, he realized that eliminating Crono might allow Lavos to ultimately succeed, and that he might not survive the entire ordeal anyhow. So, still within acceptable behavior for Lavos, he went to 1005 A.D. and used it on Crono and Marle in that era.
Now, you might say, is King Zeal so evil after realizing Lavos was controlling him? Enough to still want to kill Crono for just getting in his way? The answer is yes. King Zeal is utterly and completely enthralled by the Frozen Flame, Lavos or no Lavos. He has gone too far (just like the theme of humanity); it was doing so in Zeal that originally resulted in his first death, even. So King Zeal, aware of Lavos's intent, makes these two moves -- the first to ultimately kill Crono, and the second to resurrect Zeal (stopped before the DBT). This maintains King Zeal's villainy. I was worried that he'd come out as a tragic figure, like Queen Zeal or other pawns of fate. This maintains his evil qualities and also ties into the theme of humanity growing wildly unchecked in the pursuit of power.
So, Magus arrives and Dalton does not have the item, but challenges Magus. But all that stuff above still looms behind the scenes. It might be hard to explain, but it also shows how King Zeal could even touch Crono considering the player matches him in battle throughout the quest. The "cheap knockoff" of the Chrono Break makes it happen. What do you think?
-
The only two issues I'm seeing are, with their solutions too:
- Why don't the team members just go back to stop King Zeal at that moment, then? Well, of course, the Porre revolution was still happening, with or without King Zeal. He just tried to take some personal vengeance.
- Big ethical question. Why don't the heroes just come in and smooth things over with Porre and Guardia then and avoid war totally? We're having Glenn rationalize their time traveling by noting they're acting to protect life and the free will of organisms to determine their own paths and dreams in the universe. The idea is that by doing that, they'd be forcing their will upon the timeline and the will of others.
But this is where it gets stupid. What's to stop them from preventing the war of 1005 A.D. anyway? The only possible answer I'm finding is some kind of Temporal Prime Directive stating that huge changes should not be undertaken and that time travel should only be used to counter other foreign influences of time or instances of the complete annihilation of humanity. Which sounds great on paper, and is essentially what the heroes are doing. But what irks me is that in the ending, in touching upon these events, guess who'd be explaining it?
(http://www.chronocompendium.com/images/wiki/0/00/Belthasar_portrait.png)
Yes, Belthasar, the man who violates such a directive before AND after Crimson Echoes blows up in his face. You could argue that he learned his lesson, but creating an entire civilization of El Nido and effectively messing up Dragonian civilization in the Reptite Dimension...is hard to justify in that light.
Ah, this is a good feeling. It's just like when we used to debate analysis back in the old days before we figured out mostly everything. Amazing that we're now debating a hypothetical plot, which could only be made possible with the power of the Compendium.
-
http://ce.herograw.org/KingZeal/VB_DVDART_DrV_1600.jpg Test
-
That link told me you are unquestionably gay. :?
-
How will the 11,998 BC gate work, considering where it is?
Ah, good call. I didn't thought about it... I think the easiest solution is to correct the overworld map and add a small land passage connecting to two landmasses. The problem will be solved, and the resulting landmass will also be aptly reminiscent of the Medina continent this way.
I don't have the time right now but I'll have to ponder a bit about these Cakhula/Dalton/etc. ideas, it's a lot to grasp at once but it's getting great in any case.
That link doesn't work for me neither.
-
It's working, though herograw as always took the opportunity to mess around...that's our future export folder. Had to make sure it wouldn't be publicly accessible.
-
Well I'll address an easy point first:
Belthasar stimulates old Gates for the party's use with the TDC until the Epoch is found, except in Zeal; we'll justify this by the fact that an entire time research laboratory is being used to pull them back; it's not like Belthasar can simply just re-open the Gates...it takes a lot of power.
Actually, my reasoning was that the TDC (the device which sends) can reach any year in time, but the Temporal Catch (the device which brings back) can only reach Entity eras. The party would be sent to Zeal normally, but would have to find Gaspar's original Time Egg prototype and break it like in the intro, to allow the Temporal Catch to "find" them in the timestream. After the return from the Reptite timeline, the Temporal Catch will be able to find anyone in any time thanks to the Dragon Tooth.
-
I'm starting to not like the way 12,000 BC looks in CE, we seem to be making a landmass the never existed 2 years ago suddenly appear (You know, where Sargon's house and Beast Forest is). If you look at the original maps, Last Village lies between the portals to Kajar and Enhasa. I think we should remove beast forest and replace it with an area around the ice bergs in the water. Sargon's house should be the ruins of the Enhasa teleporter and Dalton's Hideout should only be accesible through the Kajar portal to the north.
I've also provided a picture for my evidence. Just look at the forest I circled! Still in the same place!
Please note I'm just wanting to help make this game as cannon as possible.
[attachment deleted by admin]
-
I see no problem with changing the map layout. If someone wants to try it, note that the only constraint is that the entrance to Dalton's Hideout must be out of sight (out of the visible screen) when you enter the world map from another location. If the entrance is visible when you enter the world map, it will appear open for some reason.
-
Here's what I imagine now for the Cakulha scenario in chapter 12. It's a bit long, even though I try to be concise:
The cast has returned from the "Reptite timeline". Belthasar informs the party that a Reptite called Cakulha is causing some crisis on Zenan mainland. The political situation in the future is complicated, so Belthasar feels the need to explain it to the party...but first, he tells them to recover the Epoch in 1,002 A.D. in case something would happen to Chronopolis.
After doing so and returning, the party learns about the future political situation. Another long Belthasar speech would probably be too much at this point, so what we can have is Belthasar telling the party to check the computer for the information, if they want (if not, they can go directly). So: in the aftermaths of a disastrous nuclear conflict in the 22th century, the nations of the world decided to unite in a Central Regime to prevent other tragedies. In reality, the Vanguard organization is almost synonymous with this regime: it controls most of it. Rebellions form from time to time but are always easily crushed. In 2,302 A.D., the situation is different because of Cakulha. He joined the current (terroristic) rebellion and has managed to acquire a nuclear missile that they plan to use on a city of the Central Regime. Belthasar doesn't really know why Cakulha joined them, but the party has to take care of him in any case.
The party makes its way in the rebel base fighting a few robots and a majority of human enemies (we'll replace Krawlie with a mecha-armored fighter...or something). Whenever there are no enemy around the party to hear him, Cakulha appears on a computer screen and ask the party ethical questions about what they did to his world. He also reveals that his only goal in this conflict is to gather resource and acquire the means necessary to find Chronopolis. He can't directly use the resource of the Central Regime, because he doesn't want to tell anyone about the Time Fortress and because they'd have used him as a guinea pig if they ever found him. So he joined this non-xenophobic rebellion instead and tries to make them overthrow the regime. After all questions are answered, one out of three possible outcomes for Cakulha is reached:
1. He commits suicide.
2. He's defeated in battle by the party.
3. He tries to stop the missile launch but is killed by the rebels.
In the end, the remaining rebels manage to launch the missile regardless of Cakulha's fate. The party jumps in the Epoch and blow it before it reaches its target. At the minimum, the cutscene will show the missile, the Epoch, and some rebel jets flying above the ocean, and an explosion with DrawGeometry and fire explosion sprites. If we can, we'll add lateral close-ups of the flying stuff, some sort of view of the city, etc.
After returning to Belthasar, the party is told that a few rebel robots actually managed to hear Cakulha and them mentioning Chronopolis, and that rumors of its existence is starting to spread on the mainland. Proto 5-02C might or might not be mentioned, but I don't think a side-quest with him is feasible. People don't believe those robots, except the Vanguard of the Central Regime... For now though, Belthasar allows/lets the party go visit Ayla in Prehistory. Thus the next chapter is unchanged except for the Epoch.
At the end of chapter 15, the Vanguard cease to exist to threaten Chronopolis, but Belthasar explains that the Central Regime still formed, though it's slightly less powerful and totalitarian. It doesn't try to find Chronopolis.
Overall, this chapter is quite heavy in terms of plot/background, especially with the 2 layers, Cakulha and the political conflict. This flows well with the rest of the plot though. After the relative simplicity of the Reptite world, we return to the complicated and contradictory human world in which the lone Cakulha is simply crushed by the events surrounding him...
-
Okay, that sounds good.
-
The Fall of Guardia thing: I'm not really sure that involving the Chrono Break here would be the best solution. It makes the artifact seem truely foreboding, but still, the Fall of Guardia is peripheral, sort of like an aftermaths of all this story (and CT originally). That's fine, the problem is associating it with the name of a "Chrono Break" that we never see. It's almost like a call to another sequel, it decreases, even if just a little, the ability of CT:CE to stand by itself as a self-contained story.
I think King Zeal can participate in the Fall without fear of losing though. If we follow the Compendium axioms on time travel, Crono and Marle (and Lucca) don't even exist in 1,005 A.D. when Zeal comes to destroy the kingdom. If we put ourselves in the mind of a person who still think with other, flawed axioms, it still works nonetheless: Crono's body is heavily wounded after CT:CE, and Zeal can certainly face Marle alone.
Well, Lucca survives in all cases... but we can probably come up with other explanations for her. While I don't ever see Crono or Marle running away and hiding, perhaps Lucca did, to protect Kid.
As for the fact that the party does't try to prevent this Fall, I think Belthasar should really hide it to them altogether. Among all the crazy things that he needs for Project Kid, there's probably a powerful and rich Central Regime.
In this version, the Chrono Break continues to be a quickly dropped plot element though, so...I'm not sure what's best.
-
Okay. We'll still need something for Dalton / King Zeal then, I suppose...and I guess Dalton challenging Magus will sound better than Magus simply killing him outright (Magus will still feel a little bad as a move to the Magil enlightenment).
Does the Zeal sidequest sound okay? And should Proto-502C be dropped? Perhaps he can be added in the mall sidequest at some point, like a...side-sidequest. In lieu of getting some item, they have to go wrap it up with that guy. If this sounds attractive, any simple ideas for dealing with him?
-
You know, it says that Belthasar arrived in 2300 AD with a Zeal Laboratory, but everything in Chronopolis is futuristic. What happened to his lab?
-
That was our attempt to explain that quote above. Belthasar is shown in Chrono Trigger to travel without any kind of lab coming with him to ruined 2300 A.D.
-
But that can be explained as the Gurus not going to the Ocean Palace.
-
Hm, well, sort of...Time Traveler's Immunity would force the first Belthasar to always appear, but whether Kato had that in mind is debatable. This is something we'll have to ask him on.
-
Hm, well, sort of...Time Traveler's Immunity would force the first Belthasar to always appear, but whether Kato had that in mind is debatable. This is something we'll have to ask him on.
And while you're at it, tell him about CE. Heh. I wonder how that would go over?
-
He'd probably pull a C&D out of his pocket. :lol:
-
On the topic of TTI, what happened to Belthasar and Melchior in the Reptile TL in CE? They still would have appeared, right? Belthasar (I think) hasn't time traveled since he arrived in the future around 2300 A.D., while Melchior has been brought to 2302 A.D.
-
On the topic of TTI, what happened to Belthasar and Melchior in the Reptile TL in CE? They still would have appeared, right? Belthasar (I think) hasn't time traveled since he arrived in the future around 2300 A.D., while Melchior has been brought to 2302 A.D.
They would have never existed because Lavos doesn't exist to send them in the Reptile Timeline.
-
On the topic of TTI, what happened to Belthasar and Melchior in the Reptile TL in CE? They still would have appeared, right? Belthasar (I think) hasn't time traveled since he arrived in the future around 2300 A.D., while Melchior has been brought to 2302 A.D.
They would have never existed because Lavos doesn't exist to send them in the Reptile Timeline.
Actually, if I'm not mistaken they do appear. The events of the timeline are changed but the original Melchior and Belthasar still always appear in the Present and Future. However, they're not really used or mentioned in the plot (Melchior could have died or something, and the Reptite 2,302 AD is not explored). The Melchior who appears in the Present would be the very "first one" from the original Ocean Palace disaster, the one who never met Crono, and would be time-bastardized later anyway. This would be kind of complicated (and uninteresting) to have to explain TTI and TB at this passage.
Sorin does appear in this Reptite timeline though. It's easier to explain his situation than with the Melchior(s).
~
Question: When is King Zeal supposed to try to recreate his kingdom? Could this be a problem for the party if they're in the future when he does that?
-
What if King Zeal came to Chronopolis when the heroes are doing something in another timeline and he uses the TDC to go back to 12,000 BC and uses the combined powers of the Frozen Flames in the Ocean Palace to prevent Zeal's fall? We could then use the Black Omen sprite as a new Zeal sort of thing. Zealpolis perhaps?
-
He gives the power thing to the villagers while the party is in 12000 B.C., right at the end of the game.
This should wrap it except for Dalton / King Zeal meeting, Proto-052C, and the sort of weakness of the Chrono Break thing. I'm curently throwing around ideas for Dalton...I'm thinking about King Zeal meeting him before the party goes to see him, and somehow tying that in to the Chrono Break...
-
Well...my only concern about that would be that Lavos doesn't want that Zeal to remain in the sky, since he presumably destroyed it for getting too powerful. We can dodge that bullet with the new one, possibly...thoughts needed.
Here is my idea to wrap up the remaining plots:
Dalton / King Zeal
Belthasar still wants to make the Chrono Break, and Gaspar doesn't quite know this yet as he's been conferring with Melchior. Belthasar notes that throughout Zeal were some refined magical conduits, sort of acting as transmission lines and buffers to power the islands. These would allow high magic energy input to a construct creating the Chrono Break. Getting them from Zeal would be impossible without severely disrupting history, as they'd literlaly have to dismantle parts of Enhasa, Kajar, and Zeal Palace. But there's another option: they can probably find some in 11998 B.C., especially if Dalton stockpiled some. The party hit the ground running in ancient times, learning of Dalton's hideout at the icy lake. Upon reaching him, Dalton boasts that he's soon going to have the power he desires -- that all this equipment he's gathered will soon grant him the "staying power" he desires and enable him to get revenge on his enemies. He reveals that his plans begin in a few hours. He laughs that it is convenient for Crono to show up, since he can start his revenge early by killing the party. The usual tsuff in the plot outline happens and Magus kills him. They enter his storehouse and acquire the conduits and return to Chronopolis. Before the screen fades, King Zeal arrives and laments that Dalton is dead, but smirks that he can "participate in that little revolution" himself now.
What I'm going for here is that King Zeal visited Dalton and promised to take him to Crono's era to wreak havoc. This wouldn't change time at all -- originally, Dalton never did regain any power or influence, and in the new timeline, he merely participates in the Fall of Guardia with the Porre army and later dies. Since Dalton dies, King Zeal decides to show up at the Fall of Guardia himself. Of course, if this all happened BEFORE the party went to 11998 B.C., then Dalton would still appear at the Fall of Guardia, which could make things interesting. But of course, we could have the party come to 11998 B.C. before King Zeal ever gets there to complete things for Dalton (in history from a Time Error perspective, if that makes sense). If we use this, should we have Dalton and King Zeal both, or just the King?
Anyway, after they get back, Gaspar takes the conduits and destroys them. Belthasar explains that...due to recent discoveries, they won't need the Chrono Break. The party can go to Chronopolis's lower levels and talk to Melchior and Gaspar to learn more. Melchior will hint that Gaspar absolutely blew up and forbade Belthasar, while Gaspar will talk about the extreme danger of the Chrono Break and how using it to kill one person is purely excessive.
Proto 5-02C
Since the Chronopolis outrage is squashed, then yeah, there's not much to do here. But with him, it'd be easy to have the party bump into him right after acquiring the repair part from Johnny. Proto could notice their unique fashion and generally greet them in a friendly manner, making for some small talk. The party could then sort of talk about how the old Proto has been lost to the changes in time...just like the old Johnny. It'd be sort of a reflective sad moment.
Comments?
-
Perhaps King Zeal could have made the promise, but simply not have send Dalton to 1,005 AD yet when the party comes to the icy lake. So Dalton dies and Zeal participates in the fall himself at some point between this and the DBT. Might be the simpliest stuff to explain for the players...I think.
-
Okay. The only other plot problem (besides the ending, which we'll discuss later) is the party's communicating to Belthasar who is in the future. It's...it causes all kinds of problems we haven't even thought of yet. I guess I will get the outline updated then run through all the instances of Belthasar communicating to see if something can be done about it. Chrono series time theory is largely a personal thing -- when someone travels back in time, history is rewritten from that person's perspective. Until that person is finished, it's almost as if we consider the future to be in a state of flux or unwritten. So having Belthasar communicate assumes that 1. Fate exists or 2. Whatever the bad guys are doing, it's never enough to change the future. But what about after King Zeal gives the villagers the Sun Stone Mark II and the party are in 11998 B.C.? Nothing has changed yet, but if the party don't do anything the villagers will build a second Zeal. To have Belthasar speak here would mean history is already written, which we can't allow.
-
What if he descibes the events that have happened? That way we have a way of motavating the player and party.
-
Results of chat:
* King Zeal gives them the original Sun Stone...steals it during the Guardia madness, perhpas his motivation
-
I tried to move the plot to the Wiki:
http://www.chronocompendium.com/CrimsonEchoes/edit/Plot.html
Python error, and only Ramsus would know how to fix that, so we're stuck with the thread.
-
Legend of the Past's notes for the Atash Kedah scene:
1. The reward for Zeal is death.
2. Let the world be bathed in the fire of heaven.
AhPras AhYachid Bishvile Zeal Ooh Mavet.
הפרס היחיד בשביל זיל הוא מוות.
Tno LaHolam Leerchotz BeHesh Gan Eden.
תנו לעולם לרחוץ באש גן עדן.
-
Pressing issues:
Frozen Flame Scenes -- I don't think we reached something concrete. By the way Vehek, did you get my PM about AIM? Perhaps Chrono'99, you, and I can resolve this tomorrow. We're just showing little scenes rather than long battles, right?
Belthasar KRS Device -- About to go through the plot thread once I finish and check this out. If push comes to shove, perhaps Gaspar can contact them from the End of Time?
Belthasar's Speech -- You know, the long one. Well, I forgot where it goes, but we need at least some of it if only for that part where Lavos stands up and "Zeal Palace" plays. That part was amazing.
Theme of Humanity / Lavos -- We need to pick a few spots in the plot to put hints towards this theme so that it's not all dumped at the end in DBT quotes.
Sorin -- Stick in his naming somewhere.
-
I think Belthasar's speach should be turned into a semi cutscene. Much like the begining of FFVI.
-
I checked the entire outline and again and it seems we won't have to worry about Belthasar and the KRS device. Okay, so we have that speech, which basically talks about the Flame, and how Lavos used it to give humans magic, and how King Zeal found it and was zapped. What's the best place for this? I can tone it down so it's not so darn text-heavy...I notice in the outline that there is no "gather round heroes, let me tell you about King Zeal, who is the one behind the changes!" Would it still work before the mission to prehistory? They learn about the Flame and get hints about King Zeal in Zeal, so keeping it in that position seems good.
Sorin can be named in 1002 Reptite when he meets the party.
And humanity / Lavos...we've got the DBT. Then perhaps this works:
- At this Atash Kedah, King Zeal notes how Zeal and Lavos are both in a contest for survival, and he will kill Lavos.
- When Crono meets with the religious leaders who doubt the time travelers, they'll reason that time traveling is going too far...that the Reptites have grown in harmony with the planet by restricting their ambitions, and that the time traveling seems to be a blind leap.
- At the second Atash Kedah sequence, King Zeal taunts Crono and talks about the Flame. It's such an illustrious shade of crimson...it represents the uncovered, unbound desire for more power and advancement. He notes that communicating with it has given him many new perspectives, and opened his mind to all sorts of things...
- Cakulha in the missile base ridicules the world and the party for mucking in time, noting that dangerous, blind pursuits like this are like a cancer of space-time.
- Yaluk tells the party that she knows of Azala, who may have had a chance to save the Reptites, but was so selfish and absorbed with his war with humanity that he did nothing and was crushed by the events of Lavos's fall. His desire became almost self-destructive. Yaluk cautions the humans against a similar fate.
- At the Ocean Palace, the Frozen Flame perhaps speaks after all the players falter. It notes that none of them are worthy to control the evolution of God...but if Ayla is present and succeeds, it can say something like "Speak...voice of the land. What are you...?"
- At the North Cape, King Zeal reveals that something behind the Flame has taken a violent turn...and he must answer the call as the Flame-bearer. He muses that even in the eternal pursuit, things end with darkness.
- The Entity directly calls out Crono on whether this is true.
- At the DBT, the full story erupts. Emanations of Lavos reveal the role of the Arbiter...Lavos's history and original desires...and the spurned Lavos's desire to end it all. At the end, the player characters reveal what they've learned. Magus represents this well -- "...What stupid, destructive desires. Zeal and Lavos are the same, consumed by their own power. Such pathetic things are ashes in the Black Wind. You writhe and scream of deceitful dreams...and lament your sorrows with hateful art...But you have delayed the inevitable. Nothing can live forever! The darkness has at last come to claim you. I will personally send you to hell, Lavos!
Also make sure Belthasar notes that Chronopolis will be pulled back by an attempt to get the flame. That's a great plot point.
~
Okay, that's it for the final post here tonight. Please comment on all this stuff...and is that Magus line good? I spent a good ten minutes on it, since it was a little rough.
-
You make a good point Zealty. But I have two ideas for CE.
First one: What if Chronopolis is destroyed? It would make a reason to return to the End of Time, and give another reason to why the Chronopolis in Chrono Cross is different to the one in CE(and doesn't have the TDC).
Second: Currently, we have the entire crew from the orginal game, why don't we replace Ayla with a reptile from the other dimension? He/she could have conflicts with Chrono stopping King Zeal from causing the Atash Kedah, but in the end decides that he/she shouldn't be the product of a time traveller's actions (his creation is the cause of King Zeal stopping Lavos) but when Zeal is stopped, he/she still lives because of TTI. This further fuels his/her rage for King Zeal and remains with the party until the end of the game, at which point lives out the rest of his/her life in the reptile sanctuary you wrote about in another topic.
God damn it I hate it when I write so much for something that will never be used.
-
First one: What if Chronopolis is destroyed? It would make a reason to return to the End of Time, and give another reason to why the Chronopolis in Chrono Cross is different to the one in CE(and doesn't have the TDC).
This might be difficult because we need to avoid permanent settlements in the End of Time, because Belthasar wants to hide knowledge of the Fall of Guardia from the party and Gaspar. If they would stay at the EoT long enough, they might learn about this event by observing the timeline. The Chronopolis location will probably be augmented a bit though, perhaps with some room for Gaspar, etc. It already looks like a very subtle, early version of the CC time fortress actually, with the elevator that leads to the underground Powerstation with Mother "FATE" Brain guarding it.
Second: Currently, we have the entire crew from the orginal game, why don't we replace Ayla with a reptile from the other dimension? He/she could have conflicts with Chrono stopping King Zeal from causing the Atash Kedah, but in the end decides that he/she shouldn't be the product of a time traveller's actions (his creation is the cause of King Zeal stopping Lavos) but when Zeal is stopped, he/she still lives because of TTI. This further fuels his/her rage for King Zeal and remains with the party until the end of the game, at which point lives out the rest of his/her life in the reptile sanctuary you wrote about in another topic.
God damn it I hate it when I write so much for something that will never be used.
Personally, I think this could be interesting, but... we might alienate fans of Ayla by doing this (or not?). In any case, I'd rather wait until human Glenn is real before considering another PC replacement.
~
About the Frozen Flame:
I think it could be very effective to show it and reveal its name for the first time at Lavos's Crater. The details about its uses can be explained normally in Belthasar's files, but perhaps it could be referred to only with cryptic names or periphrases like "a strange Red Rock", etc. The players would be curious; some might guess that it's the Frozen Flame, or not... In any case, they'd be amazed in the climactic Atash Kedah scene to see a weird "ammonite" sprite opening itself to reveal the famous CC Frozen Flame. Then King Zeal would finally refer to it as the "Frozen Flame", and the name would stuck.
Perhaps he should also reveal at this point that the Flame's creation was accidental and that the destruction of Zeal was caused by Lavos' attempt at claiming it back.
The KRS: Are we dumping it? I never thought it was very necessary.
-
Okay. Yeah, KRS is out, and perhaps we can replicate that scene for King Zeal with the dramatic "Lavos stands up" scene intact. We'll still make sure it looks like King Zeal has no idea he is under Lavos's control.
If the thematic insertions I listed are in order, then I think we're through here and can move on to sidequests.
-
Forgot about the nightmare sequences...
Crono's would probably be an inability to protect those he loves. Marle...would become a commoner, but yes, couldn't run away from all her duties.
Magus would fear never finding Schala, so the Flame would offer him...hah, it'd be so fun to give him the power to extract her from Zeal, only to have her disappear from Time Bastard, but no one would buy that.
I'm really starting to desire importing fresh ideas for these nightmare sequences, because I'm bankrupt for ideas. Anywya, we can continue with the sidequests and endings now.
-
Yeah, we can probably just leave this part blurry for now and do the rest. I'm sure ideas will come up naturally when we'll have a good amount of the game finally coded.
-
- 01 Magus goes through the Beast Forest, then Dalton's Hideout
- 02 Crono / Marle / Lucca fight Sorin, then several enemies after inspection
- 03 Crono / Marle / Lucca go through Zeal Dungeon, add Magus then go through Ocean Palace
- 04 Glenn and All go through Kasmir's tunnel
- 05 All go through Zeal with one Nu battle
- 06 All go through Singing Mountain to battle Nizbel, then rush to crater to battle King Zeal
- 07 Marle goes through Terra Tower
- 08 Lucca and Robo go through a factory to dismantle an AI, then go through Terra Tower to fight the Dragon God
- 09 Crono, Magus, and Glenn fight in the strong contest, then enter Terra Tower and fight Coyopa
- 10 Crono, Magus, and Glenn battle King Zeal
- 11 Marle battles Antaeus
- 12 All go through Cakulha's rebel base and possibly batle him
- 13 Glenn romps around a mountain, possibly killing a few monsters
- 14 All fight several battles in 602 A.D. in Kasmir's fort
- 15 Crono fights a few battles in Guardia Castle
- 16 All fight rigorous battles at the secret Porre lab, including proto Neo N' Bulb
- 17 All fight Spekkio and possibly a couple monsters long ago
- 18 All, definitely Magus, fight several monsters at the icy lake and kill Dalton
- 19 All fight several monsters at the Ocean Palace
- 20 All battle the Frozen Flame and perhaps other monsters in the nightmare
- 21 All fight...numerous side quests
* The party go through wilderness of prehistory and fight a boss on Singing Mountain
* The party defeat the ultimate boss, Khrusaor
* The party fight several enemies to save library books
* The party battle several soldiers on the ship near Choras
* The party beat the Coliseum (at any time)
* The party defeat Kasmir
* Glenn fights Spekkio
* The party fight in the Valle Crimse and Crono fights the Old Knight
* Magus duels Janus and Schala
- 22 Surprisingly, nothing happens.
- 23 All go through the underwater dungeon; Crono has specific battles afterwards
- 24 All go through the Darkness Beyond Time
-
If Lucca's and Robo's Reptile TL part comes before Crono's, Magus's, and Glenn's; then what happens to the key to the optional boss? Beating up monsters in 1999 A.D. isn't going to make those same monsters drop the key to the optional boss room in 1002 A.D.
-
Was that from an earlier incarnation of the plot?
-
Was that from an earlier incarnation of the plot?
It's kinda what Jason used to create Terra Tower,
-
Better late than never... Plot-hole alert!
There's a problem with the whole Chapters 7 and 8 (Reptite 1 A.D. and Reptite 1,999 A.D.). What's special about these chapters is that Marle dies in the former and Lucca and Robo are stranded in the future in the latter, for the rest of their lifes. It's basically "game over" for these 3 characters.
To recover them, the neat plot device we have is that it's not them who save themselves in a typical "heroes can't die" fashion, but it's Crono, Glenn and Magus who prevent them from dying by outright reverting the timeline in Prehistory. This results (in Chapter 11) in a different version of Marle appearing in the human 1 A.D., and different versions of Lucca and Robo appearing in the future (kinda like there's two versions of Belthasar in CT and CC).
That's totally original and clever storywise, but we have a problem gameplaywise: Marle, Lucca and Robo will gain items, money, levels, and probably Techs in the Reptite timeline... and they will keep all of these in the reverted timeline, even though it's illogical since they aren't the same versions of the characters. How do we solve this?
-
Better late than never... Plot-hole alert!
There's a problem with the whole Chapters 7 and 8 (Reptite 1 A.D. and Reptite 1,999 A.D.). What's special about these chapters is that Marle dies in the former and Lucca and Robo are stranded in the future in the latter, for the rest of their lifes. It's basically "game over" for these 3 characters.
To recover them, the neat plot device we have is that it's not them who save themselves in a typical "heroes can't die" fashion, but it's Crono, Glenn and Magus who prevent them from dying by outright reverting the timeline in Prehistory. This results (in Chapter 11) in a different version of Marle appearing in the human 1 A.D., and different versions of Lucca and Robo appearing in the future (kinda like there's two versions of Belthasar in CT and CC).
That's totally original and clever storywise, but we have a problem gameplaywise: Marle, Lucca and Robo will gain items, money, levels, and probably Techs in the Reptite timeline... and they will keep all of these in the reverted timeline, even though it's illogical since they aren't the same versions of the characters. How do we solve this?
Time Traveller's Immunity should work, right? Or would Time Bastard? :?
-
We can argue game mechanics purely by Final Fantasy 8's example. Spoiler...Squall kept everything Laguna bought. So we do have precedent if a better example isn't available.
But I have another idea. It won't help if the party buy regular items like tents and things, but for specific weapons, it might. Crono and the gang could simply pick up Marle's specific items in Terra Tower (even a text message would do), while...well, Lucca would have no reason to try and send her items back. So I don't know. But FF8 allows us to do this.
Oh, and sorry for taking so long with the importing, but it is a mind numbingly slow process to keep track of everything I've imported, all hard changes, and the state of the ROM.
-
Time Traveller's Immunity should work, right? Or would Time Bastard? :?
These time travel rules mean that Marle will always appear out of a time Gate in 1 A.D., but it doesn't "connect" the Reptite timeline Marle with the reverted timeline Marle (like Belthasar, the CC one didn't conserve the memories of the CT one, although he learnt about them from Chronopolis and other means).
I'm gonna try to see if I can copy the characters' stats to some memory variables, to "paste" them back to the characters when the story needs it. This may be feasible for the levels and stats, but I'm not sure about learned Techs.
-
We can argue game mechanics purely by Final Fantasy 8's example. Spoiler...Squall kept everything Laguna bought. So we do have precedent if a better example isn't available.
But I have another idea. It won't help if the party buy regular items like tents and things, but for specific weapons, it might. Crono and the gang could simply pick up Marle's specific items in Terra Tower (even a text message would do), while...well, Lucca would have no reason to try and send her items back. So I don't know. But FF8 allows us to do this.
Oh, and sorry for taking so long with the importing, but it is a mind numbingly slow process to keep track of everything I've imported, all hard changes, and the state of the ROM.
Actually you don't want to argue ANYTHING through FF8, it is the most nonsensical game in the world.
But pooled item inventory has occurred in multiple games, so there is nothing wrong with doing that.
also it wouldn't be nonsense to have a guy from Chronopolis in every time period, to act like a "Fat Chocobo" and hold items for you that can be accessed in every time period.
And the idea about picking up marle's items in Terra Tower is rather good, it's reminiscent of when you had to get your items back on Dalton's ship in CT.
-
Ugh, Time Crash. Worst thing EVER! Neat idea, badly made in that game. :x
What if Lucca and Robo send their items back in time as a test of an experimental time gate? That way, Chrono and gang can find it in Prehistory.
-
I've made a little experiment with the stat variables: it is possible to "backup" the stat values and paste them back when needed. It works with stats, current and max HP/MP, levels, EXP, remaining EXP, money, and even equiped items!
I didn't manage to do it with Techs though, because I can't find the Mems for them. Anyone knows what the addresses are to lock/unlock Techs?
-
Well, after looking at the event code of Crono's Kitchen, I think I have where it stores what techs they have.
Marle's is at 7E2838, Lucca's at 7E2839, and Robo's at 7E2983A. And it's probably a good idea to also store the TP to next tech too.
In case you don't have the memory locations for those yet, they are stored at 7E267D for Marle, 7E26CD for Lucca, and 7E271D for Robo.
-
Incase you guys need all the information on where the techs are, here's the link http://www.chronocompendium.com/Forums/index.php?topic=2847.0 (http://www.chronocompendium.com/Forums/index.php?topic=2847.0)
-
Will try these later, thanks and sorry for the delay.
-
Do we still not have a location for the DBT? Because we could put it at the telepods. Gives us a reason to go there, plus has an ironic location (The DBT is at Opassa Beach in Chrono Cross, where the dimension crossing began. The telepods are where the time travelling begins in Trigger)
-
I know it's been awhile but wanted to clear a few things up.
Key to the optional boss:
Yea I realized this, it now goes in "chronological" order (marle-->Crono/Magus/Glenn --> Lucca/Robo ) so Lucca/Robo fight the optional boss. C/M/G make them drop the key.
Stats and items.....yea that's gunna be kind of iffy.....we gotta wonder even if the gamer will be outright pissed about losing his/her work. Either way though it should be feasible to save everything, Chrono 99 looks like he even has already started to do it.
--JP
-
Okay, my computers and Internet connection keep breaking down in unexpected ways. They seem to be okay for now, so I'm going to post this here while I can, in case I suddenly go AWOL again. This is a revised version of the end of the plot outline; I came up with it during my offline times. I know this project has gone virtually dead, but even if the "game" is dead, I still have faith in the "plot"... It seems futile, but I don't know... maybe later, eventually, this could be turned into a fanfic; be released as is; be resurrected when we have more motivation and a more stable TF; or be converted into an RPGMaker game? Anyway, the outline:
It's the same as the current outline up until Chapter 20 (the Frozen Flame nightmares). Dalton becomes a sidequest again; I couldn't fit him in the main story.
Chapter 21
The party returns to Chronopolis and finds everyone dead except Atropos and FATE. Atropos explains that King Zeal just appeared, went on a rampage and kidnapped Belthasar and Melchior. The party, wondering what King Zeal is up to, assumes that he will probably look for Gaspar as well. The full party (7 characters) travel to the End of Time.
At the End of Time, Spekkio appears and asks for a battle, just to entertain himself. He also requires Crono's presence (this is a convenience for the plot in the next scene). After the battle, Spekkio states that King Zeal didn't come here, and that Gaspar traveled to the far past a while ago anyway. The party (3 characters including Crono) uses the Gate left by Gaspar: it leads to the Dreamtime (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dreamtime)--basically an indefinite era in the far past, when biological life didn't exist yet but weird spiritual phenomena were present in the forms of "Entity emanations" occasionally bursting here and there on the barren surface.
The party makes its way across the barren land fighting curious spirit creatures (perhaps reminiscent of the Terra Tower ghosts). However, they remark that their magic Techs have somehow all disappeared! Nevertheless, they reach Gaspar near a small crack, observing some of these strange emanations bursting. Suddenly, King Zeal appears from nowhere and attacks Gaspar. Crono rushes and saves Gaspar, but is hit by one of the emanation and faints. King Zeal explains that physical life forms can't release their full power here due to the era's strange properties (perhaps Gaspar explains it's a sort of sanctuary or something), so King Zeal resorts to teleport without Gaspar to 11998 B.C., where he took Belthasar and Melchior. The party explains the whole situation to Gaspar, who then reveals that it was most probably Belthasar who revived King Zeal, as he already wanted to do that way back before the events of the Ocean Palace in CT.
Chapter 22 - Let us Part in Zealous Regret
The party returns to the End of Time (they regain their magic Techs too) and the inactive characters tend to the unconscious Crono while the active party and Gaspar go to 11998 B.C. At Sargon's house, King Zeal leaves the Sun Stone and instructions to Sargon and other people for the re-creation of the kingdom of Zeal. He explains he will then leave do "something else" (the Time Devourer is calling him to the DBT). King Zeal intended to gather the 3 Gurus here so they could watch the scene and be amazed by his glory (or something)--before dying by his hand. The villagers seem happy about King Zeal's plan and don't care much about the Gurus, and even the few dubious persons are comforted by the fact that King Zeal will leave, i.e. they'll have all the good stuff (Sun Stone, etc.) and not the worse ones (no king, no dictatorship). King Zeal even tries to convince Belthasar, knowing that Belthasar still partly yearns for the kingdom of Zeal (the reason he built the Epoch in CT was explicitely to return to his era, according to the Japanese version). But Gaspar lambasts him like in the previous plot outline, etc.
To get rid of the party, King Zeal summons the CrimseSun, a pumped up version of the Sun Stone "Son of Sun", before leaving to North Cape. After defeating the creature, the party hurries to North Cape since it's more urging. King Zeal says some stuff (but doesn't explicitely mention the Devourer of Time yet), before being flung straight upward into a huge distortion leading to the Darkness Beyond Time. The distortion remains as a vertical and gigantic black rift in spacetime hovering above North Cape. A weird composite tower seems to occupy its surface: this is the Spire of Telos (name borrowed from the first plot draft). This location will serve as both the "ancient flying fortress" of the game (like the Black Omen and Terra Tower in the previous games) and the final dungeon that we came up with in the previous plot outline (this will be the place with the discarded scraps of timelines, while the actual DBT, at the end of the dungeon, will be a totally empty and smaller place like it is in CC).
But anyway... the party can't access it yet due to a gravitational barrier (plus they need the Epoch to fly there), so they head back to Sargon's place where the Gurus remained to talk with the villagers. Glenn does his speech like in the previous plot outline. Some people agree with him, some don't. Sargon tries to activate the Sun Stone but, curiously, fails. A voice is then heard saying he (the voice) sealed the Sun Stone's power. To the party's (and player's) surprise, the person appears to be Crono! He comes in with the inactive characters and speaks, saying something to further Glenn's previous speech (but let's keep it short please...). The full party and the Gurus then return to Chronopolis, leaving the people with a useless Sun Stone (it's a Moon Stone then! curious thematical reference to CC).
Chapter 23 - Dreaming Across Time
Back in Chronopolis, Gaspar explains that Crono was apparently infused with a small part (or copy) of the Entity's consciousness when he touched the emanation in the Dreamtime. As a result, he is still himself but not totally; he shows traits of the Entity without being the Entity (thus why his textboxes are visible, and how he managed to seal the Sun Stone). Gaspar comments that this is probably not permanent, but he is unsure of all the effects this will leave on Crono's mind and body. Basically, this plot point is a small gift to people who wanted Crono to speak in this game; as well as a device to explain why he can't prevent the Fall of Guardia caused by time-traveling King Zeal (he'll be exhausted).
Anyway, Crono and Gaspar comment that something huge is probably happening in the DBT, but that they should still take the time to repair things in the timeline to gain more power--i.e. this is the sidequest chapter.
Chapter 23 - Where Dreams go to Die
Having finished sidequests (or not), the party enters the Spire of Telos with an Epoch powered up by Belthasar. Throughout the place, emanations explain Lavos's history and the "Arbiter of Time"'s role. The discarded scraps of timeline visited include:
- the bad 602 A.D. with the 3 Vanguard leaders;
- the Reptite world with the 3 Xamoltans and the Vision Serpent;
- the future of the Reptite world, with the discarded Lucca and Robo from Chapter 8;
- the ruined 2300 A.D. of CT with Johnny and the discarded Mother Brain;
- a glimpse of the new Zeal kingdom that was prevented in Chapter 22, with Sargon and Mystics living a happy life.
The final area is a strange place composed of reddish, spiky rocks. At the end of the path, the party falls into an empty area (the DBT as seen in CC), from which they look back and realize that the spiky place they were walking on was Lavos/the Time Devourer itself (he's gigantic, much bigger than in CC). King Zeal is in front of the TD's "face", and reveals its wish of destroying the universe and his impending merging with it. The party notes that they can feel the presence of previous Arbiters within the TD, including Schala (who's visible on the shell) in addition to... Cedric the Executor! Anyway, King Zeal comments that he (Zeal) is strongwilled enough to resist the merging for a short amount of time, just the amount he needs to kill the party by his own hand. He is defeated in a climactic final battle, after which the Frozen Flame explodes and the Devourer of Time begins to shatter and crumble. The party escapes the DBT, except Magus, who stays with Schala even though she's stuck on the TD's shell.
Cutscenes depict Ayla, Glenn, Lucca and Robo returning to their eras, and Marle tending to an exhausted Crono (whose textboxes are not seen anymore) in Guardia Castle. Everybody thinks it's over. However, a cutscene then shows Belthasar in an empty, bleak Chronopolis, pondering alone in the night. The Frozen Flame suddenly materializes in front of him in a perfectly reversed way of how it exploded in the DBT (to imply that it was just a teleportation, that it faked its death). The voice of the Flame explains that the Devourer of Time was damaged, but still exists. It then challenges Belthasar to a grand "game" between the TD and him to decide of the fate of the entire universe itself (CC!). Belthasar slowly approaches the Flame as the screen fades to black...
THE END.
After the credits, a final cutscene between Magus and King Zeal occurs like in the previous plot outline.
---
Thoughts, comments, etc. are welcome, but yeah, it's sad that it's a dead project...
-
I don't know why such a project that had so much effort into it would just die. I mean, we could have someone working on maps and stuff just to get that out of the way. It'd take alot more time but it's worth it imo.
-
It's just that we became very dependent on Jsondag to do all the events. Whenever he wasn't around, no progress was made there.
-
Good point...This kinda points out that we need to have more people that know or can learn code to get this project back in gear. I don't want this to die.
-
This game is essentially Chapter 23, if you catch my drift.
I worked so hard on 1 AD, I don't want to see it disappear.
-
We all worked so hard on coding spriting mapping etc...I don't think any of us wants this project to go to waste.
-
I'm starting to not like the way 12,000 BC looks in CE, we seem to be making a landmass the never existed 2 years ago suddenly appear (You know, where Sargon's house and Beast Forest is). If you look at the original maps, Last Village lies between the portals to Kajar and Enhasa. I think we should remove beast forest and replace it with an area around the ice bergs in the water. Sargon's house should be the ruins of the Enhasa teleporter and Dalton's Hideout should only be accesible through the Kajar portal to the north.
I've also provided a picture for my evidence. Just look at the forest I circled! Still in the same place!
Please note I'm just wanting to help make this game as cannon as possible.
New 11998 BC (work in progress):
[attachment deleted by admin]
-
OMG! That's great! Better than my original try. I like how you made the ice sheet.
-
Should we go through the plot again? I don't think the new discussion was ever properly added back to the master first post.
Amazing mountain to plains transitions there.
-
WOW! That's really really good! That's amazing! I never thought of using the ice sheets like that...That's very clever.
-
Thanks. I had to try several combinations to make it both "clean" and walkable.
Should we go through the plot again? I don't think the new discussion was ever properly added back to the master first post.
Probably. But what do you all think about the Crono/Entity plot point? I believe it's a bit weak (even with the talking Crono twist) because it comes late in the plot and the only concrete consequence for it is to explain the Fall of Guardia, i.e. something that don't even take place within the game. Still, it's kind of original; it hastens things for the end of the game; and Gaspar's wish to fully merge with the Entity is neat too.
Also Dalton is out of the main plot, but maybe we can say that King Zeal simply sealed him so he won't interfer with his re-creation of the Zeal kingdom... The Dalton sidequest would be about looting his lair and accidentally releasing him or something.
-
Also, we might need to come up with shorter chapter names for the save screen. The first chapter appears as "Legacy of the Enlighte" because it's too long.
We could have long names for the textboxes shown on black screens, and shorter names for the save screen. Or I guess we could have short names everywhere for consistency's sake.
-
"Beneath the Azure Sea" is also too long, by one letter IIRC.
OK, the practical limit for chapter names seems to be 20 characters. Anything after that is likely to get cut off unless it's a thin character.
-
What are the music plans now? It looks like there's no longer an Entity Dungeon or real need for the DBT to have creepy dungeon music.
I've also been thinking recently of modifying the scene where you find Schala to fit with the current plot.
Does King Zeal still fight Magus? I'm sure Magus temporarily trapping King Zeal doesn't really fit.
-
ce.herograw.org has been found, but I'm not sure what to do with it now. Maybe Ramsus can create a subdomain for it or something, like we had last time.
Anyway, all the random assets we had are safe, including all the different song candidates.
-
What are the immediate consequences of trying to save Ayla a second time (after the Reptile TL)?
-
Presumably, the party manages to prevent the spell and Ayla joins early rather than in Chapter 13.
Another possibility I consider could be that saving her means she joins in Chapter 13 while not saving her means she flat out dies and won't be playable at all (in effect, she'd be the optional PC like Magus was in CT)... Her baby would have to be born by this point so that there's no paradox. But missing the opportunity to recruit her would be kinda unfair for the player, wouldn't it?
-
I've just had an idea to further develop Glenn's personality (not that it was lacking, but more is better): Glenn is secretly haunted with the feeling of having no place to call home.
Indeed, he has been "lost" ever since 590 A.D. when his friend Cyrus died and he went into hiding in the wilderness as a mere frog-man. Then after the events of CT, due to King Zeal, he returned in an alternate 600 A.D. in which Cyrus was never a hero and the Mystic War still continues in 602 A.D., while people think he has delusional disorders due to his mumblings about the difference between his timeline and this alternate, Masamune-less timeline...
We can take this idea further if we assume that these stuff have some kind of taxing effect on Glenn's mind. Glenn has no home; he is foreign to everything in his era and thus has difficulties blending in society. Hadriel's idea of Glenn having a subconscious "hate" for the Mystics can even be resurrected here. There was a New Game+ ending in the very first plot outline about Glenn becoming the immortal emperor of the Vanguard and totally massacring the Mystics... perhaps this ending can be recycled into Glenn's Frozen Flame nightmare sequence.
In the main ending sequence, Glenn would not return to Guardia's Castle; he would prefer living a life of Wanderer in the wild. After seeing all the places and eras (and alternate eras) of CT and CT:CE, you can't really blame him for being tired of Guardia's Castle.
Of course, all this might look slightly less exciting if we're stuck with a "Frog" PC Glenn :(
-
King Guardia XXI would also remember the original timeline thanks to TTI (but not the changed timeline after it's fixed)...but I suppose he'd keep quiet about it. It's really bad for people to think the king is delusional.
-
Yeah, most people accept Glenn overall since he does create the Vanguard (who aren't corrupted fascists until the future era), but a few still think his mind isn't exactly sane. Without the King's protection, people would have thought he was crazy when he appeared out of nowhere in 600 A.D. talking about the war being finished and Cyrus and himself being heroes, etc.
-
Just a note. I'm currently adapting Chapter 4 to the new plot (moving Renault/Luther/Roget to 602 instead of 1002, and Glenn's new development). However, I really don't like coincidences, and there's a big one here in that the Dorino/Tunnel/Medina battle happens right when the party arrives and seems to be a decisive battle, yet the war has been going on for years... Glenn shouldn't have had to wait for the party to arrive to launch this battle, especially since Kasmir (formerly Serran) isn't that powerful at this point.
So I'm thinking about adding a small plot point: Kasmir knows a spell that allows him to create illusions of himself. This way, tons of battles can have happened between 600 and 602, but everytime Kasmir was defeated it happened to be an illusion, while the real one has always remained safely away from the battlefields in his hidden fortress. Thus, in Chapter 4, it's also an illusion, and the real one is defeated only later in the plot/sidequests.
We could even take this idea further and make Kasmir a Lich (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lich), i.e. an undead creature who is resurrected each time it's defeated thanks to a phylactery (soul container) hidden in a safe place, but this might be a bit cliché because of the Dungeons & Dragons reference. Lichs don't exist only in D&D though (see Koschei (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koschei)). I think I'd go with the illusion spell rather than the full Lich stuff, but please comment.
EDIT: In the original timeline, Kasmir was killed early in the war (perhaps by the Hero Cyrus, though we don't need to specify) before he managed to master his illusory spells. In the modified timeline, Cyrus not-the-Hero died first and stuff changed so that Kasmir lived on and went to become Magus' successor.
-
I'm spotting a possible weakness in the plot: the Dragon Tooth doesn't seem to be integral to the plot of the game. Its only notable usage is to make traveling from the past to Chronopolis possible without Time Eggs or pre-existent Gates, which in fact only applies to 1 AD and the trip to the 12000 BC Ocean Palace before the Frozen Flame nightmares. It's used in so few instances that we might as well remove these instances. We could declare that the Entity creates a permanent Gate in 1 AD after what Marle experiences; as for 12000 BC, we could simply have another Time Egg breaking.
I'm not saying we should remove the Dragon Tooth itself though. It just needs a more important function... Perhaps it could be revealed in Singing Mountain that the "Dragon Tooth" is not an artifact, but actually a Reptite shamaness? The party, dumbfounded, would still try to bring her to Belthasar. However, King Zeal would appear in the Lavos crater as in the current plot. In addition to the party members, the Dragon Tooth would also be warped through time along with a male Reptite, to some random year BC.
This new plot point can perhaps make the Reptite timeline more credible. It feels curious that the humans could survive for 65 million years against the Reptites in a warm Ice Age. So, what if King Zeal's spell doesn't change history, but instead, the two Reptites do? The Dragon Tooth and the male Reptite would reproduce and create a population in whatever BC which would compete with humanity and changes history. Marle would arrive in 1 AD to witness the end of humanity; then the alternate 1002 A.D. and 2001 A.D. would be like it is in the current plot.
When Crono, Glenn, and Magus return to Prehistory with Sorin, the latter would be the one to revert the alteration: he would heroically jump in the Dragon Tooth's portal, would arrive in whatever BC to kill the Reptite couple, and would presumably be stuck there for the rest of his life. "Whatever" BC is never explored directly, but the party could discover Sorin's age-old corpse in a cave in a future era or something.
I believe this new stuff connects the King Zeal, Sorin, and Reptite story arcs better than currently. This may change Chapter 16 (Stop the Porre Lab) a bit though, and Dalton still has to be integrated somewhere.
Thoughts? Is it credible to have two Reptites "recreate" a Reptite population? We could have more than one male and one female warped, but I don't want to go overboard.
EDIT: "Whatever" BC could perhaps be 3,000,000 BC, meaning that the new Reptite population would be affected by the Frozen Flame taint like the humans.
-
How did we have Sorin die before? If we go with this, we could have his body found in Giant's Claw or something.
-
He was supposed to be damaged by King Zeal, saved and formatted by the party and allowed to return to 1002 AD. Then Luccia's parents find him and program him to kill the party again (Chapter 16). Giant's Claw sounds interesting, but the party doesn't really have any reason to go there, although it could be the point of the surprise, too. I guess we'll see depending on the side-quests.
-
Chapter 8 (the Reptite/Robots war) strikes me as a bit too simple and straightforward, even though it should be one of the highlights of the Reptite timeline story arc. How about this change:
The Reptites think of themselves as the planet's champions and whatnot, and manage to defeat the humans in 1 AD. All is well until some point in the future, when their scientists discover that they too were "corrupted" by the Frozen Flame in 3,000,000 BC (via the Dragon Tooth and male Reptite appearing there). This shocking discovery deeply affects their whole society and worldview. All their certainties are suddenly called into questions, and they believe that they are inherently harmful to the planet due to the "corruption".
So, they eventually decide to relinquish their individual ambitions and their free will to the Vision Serpent -- a central, Elemental AI which would control them collectively and establish a society that would have a wiser, better focused vision of what's good and what's bad for the planet. Whereas the Vanguards are the embodiment of misguided zeal, the future Reptites would be the embodiment of... whatever the opposite is called, misguided collectivism and dislike of personal ambitions or something.
This is where the Robots come in. They are opposed to the plan (they can't be plugged into the Vision Serpent anyway) because, ironically, they think that free will and aspirations should never be relinquished, especially when they aren't even sure whether the Vision Serpent's guidance will actually be any good. A war occurs between the Reptites and the Robots.
As for the Xamoltan time-travelers, they don't have the right to change anything historical in the timeline (like, going to the past to destroy the first Robot model or something); their only mission is to protect the timeline from changes, like with Crono's party.
As you may have noticed, the Vision Serpent's mindcontrol is reminiscent of FATE's, thus furthering the parallel between the two and shedding a slightly ironical light on the Chrono Cross Dragon God. The implication is that Belthasar will gain the idea of the Records of FATE after he studies the datacube that Yaluk gives to the party.
Anyway, I'm still not sure whether the Reptites should already be controlled by the Vision Serpent or not when Lucca and Robo arrive in the war in the Reptite 2302 AD. In any case, they can't be controlled in 1 and 1002 AD. Thoughts?
-
Nice idea, I think they should be under control so the player can see how they've completely changed between the eras.
-
Good idea I guess, but wasn't it 2001 A.D.?
-
It was initially 2001 AD, but 2302 AD is easier to explain how the cast gets back to Chronopolis. Crono's party gets back on their own; Marle gets back thanks to a Chronopolis agent sent through a Gate (let's say Belthasar learns about her situation by searching in history books or something); and Lucca and Robo conveniently appear in Chronopolis directly from Prehistory while the "Lucca" and "Robo" of Chapter 8 are discarded in the time change. These last 2 reappear in the Darkness Beyond Time in the final chapter to freak the player out.
-
I brought that up because of the TTI immunity thing. Probably isn't really too important, but I just feel like pointing it out.
Which people in Chronopolis are from another time...
- Belthasar - but he would have arrived years before, so anything could have happened to him
- Scientist from Zeal
- Melchior
- Schala
- The Zealian woman (assuming she is one by the sprite)
-
Should we just break down and put the plot on a Wiki page that anyone can edit? I didn't do this before because I was worried some could find it, but now that the encyclopedia uses .html (and before too), Ramsus could simply exclude the page in question with robots.txt.
-
I brought that up because of the TTI immunity thing. Probably isn't really too important, but I just feel like pointing it out.
Which people in Chronopolis are from another time...
- Belthasar - but he would have arrived years before, so anything could have happened to him
- Scientist from Zeal
- Melchior
- Schala
- The Zealian woman (assuming she is one by the sprite)
From a storytelling perspective we can probably avoid mentioning them, but yeah from a logical perspective we could still need an explanation. I guess we can imagine that they did reappear... but above an empty sea, thus quickly dying from drowning? Since El Nido remains empty, that could be their fates. We could even have a Robot NPC mention that these corrupted Reptites suffered global warming, which would implicitely mean for us players that Melchior and co. appeared below the sea level and couldn't survive.
Should we just break down and put the plot on a Wiki page that anyone can edit? I didn't do this before because I was worried some could find it, but now that the encyclopedia uses .html (and before too), Ramsus could simply exclude the page in question with robots.txt.
If there's no risk of having Google catch it or something, then sure.
-
To wrap up Dalton's fate, I'm thinking we could make him an ally of King Zeal. Zeal would have contacted Dalton as early as before Chapter 1, somehow gaining his support and asking him to gather old relics to prepare for the re-creation of the kingdom of Zeal. So that's why Dalton seeks the "Silver Streak" in Chapter 1 and encounters Magus. It doesn't change history then because the relics are inactive without a power source. This allows us to put Chapter 1 in 11998 BC instead of 11999 BC without too much coincidences (since Dalton's action is directly caused by King Zeal in this scenario).
In Chapter 20 ("Let us depart in Zealous regret"), King Zeal is finally ready for the re-creation. He activates the relics with the Sun Stone and goes to talk with the villagers as in the plot outline, etc. The relics have been assembled into a bunch of defense systems in a fortress guarded by Dalton (perhaps one of the machine can be Grobyc's StrongArm). Its purpose would be to protect the new kingdom, so the party has to pass through it to reach the villagers.
Honestly working for King Zeal doesn't really fit Dalton's personality though, so we can add that Zeal simply used Dalton into creating the defense system (Dalton thought it was an immortality machine). Once the system is completed and activated, Zeal actually intends to kill Dalton since he is well aware that Dalton would try to enslave the villagers and make himself the king of that new kingdom.
This can spice things up a bit: instead of trying to kill the party in the fortress, Dalton would actually be trapped in it by King Zeal and hunted by his own machines. We can thus put a number of small funny cutscenes in the dungeon involving Dalton running around and seriously failing each time he does something (think Ozzie in his Fortress in CT). After a while, the party try to talk Dalton into joining them, since they have the same enemy, King Zeal. But of course, Dalton refuses and Magus then kills him. This recalls yet again the main theme of reconciliation, except that Dalton happens to be an example of a typical stubborn person who refuses to reconcile.
Seeing how a lot of different things are exposed before and after it, I guess this event will constitute an additional chapter (between 19 and 20) rather than be a part of 20.
-
Wow, the project is still active?! I'm impressed! I thought it had died a year ago! Nice to see you guys are still at work on it: Crimson Echoes always seemed to have more potential than the other projects.
Hey, by the way, you guys still keeping my idea of the sidequest with Janus and the Furies, where he has to vindicate himself from his mother's vengeance? I was just looking back over that, and I think I did a pretty good job with the dialogue, if I do say so myself.
-
It's definitely active. So much people worked on the plot, it's almost the Compendium's duty to complete the game now, one way or another. If we don't complete it, King Zeal will come and haunt all of us!
As for the Furies, rather than being a sidequest, I think it would make a perfect sequence for Magus' Frozen Flame nightmare. For the record, there's a part in the story in which each character has to face the Frozen Flame and overcome a personal "nightmare" that the Flame summons out of their mind. I can definitely see these Furies appearing in Magus's sequence. Janus's victory over the Furies would also be a victory over the Flame. Since it all happens in his mind, we could almost totally blacken the background location and focus exclusively on the characters and their dialogue: this would almost be theatrical in nature. It would be reminiscent of all these Classical plays in which the Furies appear. If there's one place we can perfectly fit Greek references without risking going overboard, it's definitely here.
-
Well, I wish updating the site weren't getting so hard. I'm wasting so many hours making listings for the Concerts and Albums pages that it'd ridiculous. Updating the site has gotten paradoxically harder, and with December, it will be time for us to run through all new analysis again since the last topic review. This time, maybe you can look too in case I forget something important. We have a hard decision ahead concerning the Pocket Dimension theory.
-
It's definitely active. So much people worked on the plot, it's almost the Compendium's duty to complete the game now, one way or another. If we don't complete it, King Zeal will come and haunt all of us!
As for the Furies, rather than being a sidequest, I think it would make a perfect sequence for Magus' Frozen Flame nightmare. For the record, there's a part in the story in which each character has to face the Frozen Flame and overcome a personal "nightmare" that the Flame summons out of their mind. I can definitely see these Furies appearing in Magus's sequence. Janus's victory over the Furies would also be a victory over the Flame. Since it all happens in his mind, we could almost totally blacken the background location and focus exclusively on the characters and their dialogue: this would almost be theatrical in nature. It would be reminiscent of all these Classical plays in which the Furies appear. If there's one place we can perfectly fit Greek references without risking going overboard, it's definitely here.
Hmmm... I suppose as much, though I don't think that having them be 'real' would be out of line with the series. After all, CC did as much in adding the three Fates via Chronopolis (remember the bit about 'Atropos, cutting the thread of life' and stuff like that?) The Furies tend to be general enough that they don't pertain only to Greek myth. I don't know... I just suppose I think that it might be really powerful to have the anger of Zeal haunting Zeal apart from the matter of the Flame. Thing is, he did kill his mother, and that's something that's never been addressed. The Greek Furies are only a representation of the sort of ill-will that follows on the heels of that, but a good one.
Somehow, I don't think it would be overboard to place them in the 'real' sidequest line. For one thing, the Furies names aren't something well known. Those who have read the Aeneid might know Allecto, and for those having read some other works (like Statius) will have come across Tisiphone and Megaira, but to most people these will be even more foreign than having Prometheus for Robo and Atropos for his girl... or Janus for that heroic prince we all love. The allusion is slight, far distinct from using, say, Zeus or Ares or things like that* However, with my suggestions here... I daresay you needn't worry about that. I'm a classicist: my knowledge of Greek myth is a bit more than cursory. In my defence I'll say that I had Allecto talk about driving a mind to madness and Tisiphone about prisoning in hell because, well, in the Iliad it's Allecto who turns Turnus against Aineas, and Tisiphone who is seen guarding Tartaros. Moreover, if you note I never actually call these three Furies in the dialogue. They're just the furious sisters. The proper nouns I use tend to be a bit more obscure so as to cloud things... only someone who really looks up this stuff will see where it's coming from.
So, heh, I suppose I'm arguing in favour of a Janus sidequest on this one. This would be especially powerful if he is hounded throughout the game by the Furies, though only be slight allusion making mention of them, as I've mentioned before. At least in my opinion the old themes of literature are by far the most powerful, and Janus more than any other game character I've ever seen seems to be a rather classical tragic hero. I think to apply to him such a theme as kin-slaying, blood vengeance and vindication, is more than fitting. To do this within the context of the flame... that makes it a fear in his head that he overcomes. But that's not Janus. He's not a psychological hero like that who struggles with inner demons in that way, or at least his demons tend to be manifested by exterior enemies: in defeating them, he brings himself peace. That's the way his character works. He isn't in self-doubt you see... he knows he's right. He knows what he did is right. What he has always had to struggle with is the consequences. If it is the Flame doing this to him, well, he has asserted his power over Lavos again, but he's already proven his valour against him. Somehow... somehow I think that this enemy must be a waking, real one. I see this sort of thing as crucial to his character.
Basically I'm thinking... fighting this via the Flame doesn't resolve things. That's assuming that his killing his mother is haunting him internally only. But I see it as far more powerful that the blood of the matricide is far more tangible a guilt. Like the running Orestes, he sees himself as having been vindicated and cleansed... as such, it is not an internal struggle. But the forces of nature see it differently and won't let him alone. If you attribute this conflict to the Flame then it's impace is purley linear with Lavos. But I see it as tangental to the issue, more pertinant to the vindication of the hero Janus than to the defeat of Lavos.
Tell you what, if I have a chance and am able to figure it out, I'll see if I'm able to do it myself to who you what I mean. I'm not sure how to use TF, but I've used RPGmaker to some effect, so I think I could perhaps manage to figure it out at least on a basic level.
*Which, I must add, is the norm in RPGs, which in my opinion don't have tact in using allusions most of the time. Most - and in this Chrono tends to be a bit more clever - simply lift well-known names from myth, or else place them in without really understanding the heart of things. This is the same symptom we have in a lot of fantasy writing, where we see writers use names and ideas in a very juvenile fashion, ie. simply taking names that they might have read about. This happens because, most of the time, the people using them don't have more than a cursory knowledge about the myths, and as such the things come across obvious and simplistic.
-
People might be puzzled to not know their origin if we make these Furies real. The 3 Fates in Chronopolis were machines created to maintain the cloaking device (the water wall around Chronopolis, not the clouds above the whole region), so they were actually explained. Divine beings never appear in the series.
Also, from a pragmatical perspective it might be difficult to spread the Furies' appearances throughout the game. The characters chase and are chased by King Zeal; then they are hunted by the Reptite time-travelers; then they are involved in some plot-heavy conflicts between Guardia/the Mystics/Porre in different eras; and finally they chase King Zeal one last time to the DBT. It might be difficult to fit the Furies in-between these events. The Reptite time-travelers (Xamoltans) especially fit the role of vengeful beings hounding the party over a crime, though of course it's a different crime and these are different circumstances.
One of the benefits in putting the Furies in the FF nightmares chapter, apart from solving the issue of the previous paragraph, is that these sequences are personal to each character (there's one individual sequence for each of the 3 active party members). This allows us to develop each character without risking overshadowing the rest of the cast. This might not be the case if the Furies are present in speeches or persons throughout the entire game; it might make Magus stand out too much from the others, especially since we'd have to add a sequence somewhere where Magus defeats them (instead of said sequence being part of the FF chapter between sequences involving other characters equally).
It's not exactly my intention to "lessen" the importance of the Furies by putting them in an FF nightmare; on the contrary, I really think this would be a perfect stage for these beings, what with the theatrical atmosphere and stuff. Actually, did we ever see a theatrical play in an RPG? There was a small one in FFVII, but it was in the amusement park, not exactly something serious and Classical. There's something unique (or at least uncommon) that we could stage here.
The Chrono philosophy is so that it doesn't matter whether something is real or pulled out of someone's dream or nightmare: it's "real" and concrete in both cases. Still, I do understand your point about the Furies being independent from the Flame, and the exteriory-ness of Janus's struggle, and I definitely share it. It's just that it's hard to imagine a different setup without facing issues of balance in the plot.
Perhaps a compromise could be to have these Furies be creatures of the Darkness Beyond Time? We could have it so that King Zeal released them from the DBT (whether willingly or accidentally) at some point before the beginning of the game. They would of course clearly not ally themselves with King Zeal; they would just break free in the timeline and go hunt Magus. This would be a good solution for their origin, since the mysterious nature of the DBT means we precisely don't have to explain it; they remain supernatural beings without being too overtly divine. Then again, this doesn't resolve the other points: can they appear throughout the game without overloading the plot or being redundant with the Xamoltans, and can they be implemented without the rest of the cast being overshadowed?
-
People might be puzzled to not know their origin if we make these Furies real. The 3 Fates in Chronopolis were machines created to maintain the cloaking device (the water wall around Chronopolis, not the clouds above the whole region), so they were actually explained. Divine beings never appear in the series.
Also, from a pragmatical perspective it might be difficult to spread the Furies' appearances throughout the game. The characters chase and are chased by King Zeal; then they are hunted by the Reptite time-travelers; then they are involved in some plot-heavy conflicts between Guardia/the Mystics/Porre in different eras; and finally they chase King Zeal one last time to the DBT. It might be difficult to fit the Furies in-between these events. The Reptite time-travelers (Xamoltans) especially fit the role of vengeful beings hounding the party over a crime, though of course it's a different crime and these are different circumstances.
One of the benefits in putting the Furies in the FF nightmares chapter, apart from solving the issue of the previous paragraph, is that these sequences are personal to each character (there's one individual sequence for each of the 3 active party members). This allows us to develop each character without risking overshadowing the rest of the cast. This might not be the case if the Furies are present in speeches or persons throughout the entire game; it might make Magus stand out too much from the others, especially since we'd have to add a sequence somewhere where Magus defeats them (instead of said sequence being part of the FF chapter between sequences involving other characters equally).
Oh, I think you mistook what I said about them being mentioned earlier. I don't mean that they come up, just that Janus says something to the effect that he's being hunted, or something like that. Sort of always looking over his shoulder (if he happens to be in the party), but no actual appearance. I don't think it would make him stand out (though hey, it's Janus... a bit of standing out is alright in any case), because it is simply part of a side-quest, not unlike Glenn's from the original CT, or something like that. Actually, it wouldn't even be part of 'his' sidequest, but part of another that has the Furies catch him at that point. Their appearance might be alluded to, but never directly mentioned or explained. And they are never referred to by name.
However, for the contexts of this you must remember that they needn't be deities after the fashion of the Greek myths. They might just be seen as (and probably will be seen as by most), spirits born of the ill-will of queen Zeal. And THAT is very much in line with Chrono things... after all, ghosts and the like do appear in Cross. Garai, for example! He haunts the Isles of the Dead, doesn't he? This is not unlike that, only that the Furies are actively searching. Anyway, the Furies of myth aren't quite deities, or at any rater all the deities of Greek myth are just beings of higher powers... by those standards many of the myriad creatures in the Chrono games would qualify. Say, the Cryosphinx; the Dragon gods; these really aren't much different.
As for the development of the character, well... okay, I am personally against the development of Janus on a psychological level. He's not a psychological character; he's a heroic one. His actions define him, not his thoughts. He is someone that would benefit from having his character advance by an actual physical victory, rather than a mental one. As for the Flame episode... he can have something more abstract assault him, a sort of darkness personified. See, the way I see Janus, he has no remorse for killing his mother because it was the right thing to do. If the Flame puts someone into their own nightmare, I seriously doubt that his mother's death would be his. Rather, I think above all he would fear stepping too deeply into the darkness, for fear he lose control of himself. That is his mental victory. The victory over the Furies would sort of be a vindication before the world of his actions.
It's not exactly my intention to "lessen" the importance of the Furies by putting them in an FF nightmare; on the contrary, I really think this would be a perfect stage for these beings, what with the theatrical atmosphere and stuff. The Chrono philosophy is so that it doesn't matter whether something is real or pulled out of someone's dream or nightmare: it's "real" and concrete in both cases.
Hmmm... that may be, but as I've said, that tends to psychologise Janus, which I think takes away from him to some extent. The way I see the Fury conflict it is something that cannot be in his mind. I suppose it just has a lot of resonance in my mind, and much of that requires its 'reality.' In the context of the Chrono games the way I'd see them is as similar ancient things, like Lavos... as such, they sort of take on a serious air. However, the importance to the event would extend beyond Janus alone, and further to how he interacts. See, his character of RD and Cross (assuming Guile) is a lot less sharp than that of Trigger. There has been a shift. What's caused the dark sorcerer to become a bit more, well, noble? That's the question I think it would answer. See, when he goes into the battle, it's his own thing... but also his friends, especially if someone else is the leader, stand with him. That they help him with his own struggle is something that he thanks them for (see back how I set this up), and as such it marks his turn away from selfishness. From darkness to light. He is returning to being more involved with other people, and that is something that an event in his own mind really can't do. In some ways, it also highlights the charactaristics of the other part, sort of a 'all for one, one for all mentality.' They treat the Furies like 'I don't care who you are, you want to hurt him you have to get through me' attitude. Again, a mental conflict would naturally place Janus in his conflict alone, which I think isolates him too much.
See, here's how I see the entire thing with Janus. He's been searching for Schala, but somewhere along the line he's gotten wind that these Furies are chasing him. Glances out of the corner of his eye sort of things. He knows what they are and how dangerous they are, and for that he's a bit unsettled, and that could be obvious throughout the game. He'll always want to be moving, never in one place too long, sort of like Jack Sparrow of Pirates II when he's in fear of the Kraken. Eventually, though, in amidst one of the other side-quests, they catch up with him. His allies help him in this dire battle, and through this help they render him he really starts to realise a sort of bond between them - in Trigger they were mere allies, nothing more - and thanks them, which isn't something he'd typically do. I just don't see that sort of character transformation possible in a Flame battle.
Actually, did we ever see a theatrical play in an RPG? There was a small one in FFVII, but it was in the amusement park, not exactly something serious and Classical. There's something unique (or at least uncommon) that we could stage here.
Not sure; not something that's usually put into literature as a whole (though I do have a play I'm putting into one of my own stories.) There was an opera in FFVI, but that's about as close as we get I think. Hm... not quite sure.
Still, I do understand your point about the relation between the Flame and the Furies, and I share it. It's just that it's hard to imagine a different setup without seeing issues of "plot balance" appearing.
Well, it's not too tough. It's not like it'd even be a sidequest to itself. The way I'd see it is that it's a part of the Khrusaor quest (if that's still in the game), and for a short while it's required to have Janus along. In one of the dungeon rooms the Furies appear. Battle happens, and that's it. Really won't unbalance things, the way I see it.
Perhaps a compromise could be to have these Furies be creatures of the Darkness Beyond Time? We could have it so that King Zeal released them from the DBT (whether willingly or accidentally) at some point before the beginning of the game. They would of course clearly not ally themselves with King Zeal; they would just break free in the timeline and go hunt Magus. This would be a good solution for their origin, since the mysterious nature of the DBT means we precisely don't have to explain it; they remain supernatural being without being too overtly divine. Then again, this doesn't resolve the other points: can they appear throughout the game without overloading the game or being redundant with the Xamoltans, and can they be implemented without the rest of the cast being overshadowed?
Well, I don't mind them being from the DBT so much, but thing is, the entire point of them is that they're specifically connected to Zeal. See, they're Zeal's furies. In some ways, as I've said, they're like Garai's ghost on the Isle of the Dead, only not bound to that place. Actually, that's very much what the ancient Furies were like. In what I wrote Janus calls them his mother's avengers, and I don't think much more than that needs be said. We've already seen that those who have been killed by friends can remain and attempt to hurt those who killed them in the case of Garai; the precident exists. And, as I've said, their 'appearance' is mainly by side comments. Sort of a 'let's be on our way' from Janus, or a 'if we don't move, they might catch me.' If asked, he'll say nothing. He thinks it's his own burden. Turns out in the end his friends help him, so that's sort of a combined development between the team. And it allows for Janus to get his super-weapon. Actually, it might be best to handle it so that you can choose whether or not to have Janus on the team at that point. If you don't, you don't have the Furies arrive (he just manages to evade them), but the issue doesn't resolve and you don't get the Totentanz weapon; if you do, it all happens and you get the Totentanz. Anyway, I really don't want to overshadow the rest of things, and I think this whole thing can sort of stand on the side...
Here's what I'd written before in their appearance.
*Characters enter a room. Discordant music and sound effects occur.*
(Off screen)
'By the Stygian marsh we, the three furious sisters, daughters of blood and night, command you halt!'
(Allecto enters)
'I, venomous Allecto, will drive you to madness.'
(Megaira enters)
'I, fierce Megaira, will rend you to carrion.'
(Tisiphone enters)
'And I, dark Tisiphone, will prison you in hell.'
(Then all together)
'We are they who pursue men; we who drink their blood; we who never relent the hunt. Where is our prey? It is you, prince Janus, whom we desire for our feast, ever since your mother's blood cried out to us for vengeance.'
*Now the dialogue is dependant on the leader.*
(If Janus is the leader)
Janus: 'So, you have found me at last. My mother's avengers...'
Furies: 'Prince, your term of life is long overdue. We come to bear you to judgement.'
Janus: '...'
Janus: 'To the crows with you!'
(If Marle is the leader)
Marle: 'No way!'
Furies: 'Dear thing, we will not spare your blood - to us it is very sweet.'
Marle: 'Yeah? Well...Come and take it!'
(If Crono is the leader)
Crono: *Shakes his head*
Furies: 'The cries of those whom you have killed echo from hell; soon you will be amongst them.'
Crono: *Draws sword*
(If Ayla is leader)
Ayla: 'Who you? Janus strong; Ayla strong; we fight you.'
Furies: 'Ancient one, we were already old when you were not; we who are born of heaven's blood, of violence in the morning age, are stronger than you.'
Ayla: You ugly. Ayla not scared. Ayla fight. Ayla win!
(If Lucca is leader)
Lucca: 'I don't think I can allow that.'
Furies: 'Look to the skies, girl, and see our father; to the stars, and see our birth from the fallen king. Like the Infamous Immortal, ours is a heavenly breeding.'
Lucca: Heh, bring it on! I suppose you've never heard of Lucca the Great?
(If Robo is leader)
Robo: 'I will preserve my friend. My programming will not allow you to injure him.'
Furies: 'Man of Bronze, immortal skin will not save you; your soul is ours.'
Robo: 'Computing... analysis: you will not win. I am not afraid.'
(If Glenn is leader)
Glenn: 'You're expecting us to just let you take him? You're in for a surprise.'
Furies: 'Strong fighter, even in death you shall not stand by Lethe - to our abodes beside vast Tartaros we will haul you.'
Glenn: 'More damned threats. You're all just lackeys. Come on! I have his back.'
*And then the battle ensues, with music like At the Bottom of Night, only a bit discordant. Can you change the instruments, perhaps? When the battle is over, Janus walks forward, and speaks.*
Janus: 'My mother's hatred was strong, and burned against me even after death. But now I am free of it. For that, each of you has my thanks. Come, let us onward - now no longer will I fear their pursuit.'
-
Explained this way, it does appear more feasible. I think the Furies should still originate from the DBT (but still being connected to Queen Zeal), for two reasons.
Firstly, because they're borrowed from Greek mythology while the Kingdom of Zeal is more primarily Eastern/Persian/Arabic, as seen with the names used (Sarah/Schala, Alphard/Alfador, Mammon, Kajar, etc.), and possibly with the Iranian symbolic of the Sun and Lion (Sun Stone and Granleon/Masamune). Janus is Latin, but it seems to be an exception created by Woolsey's localization. There's also a bit of Atlantis in there, but Atlantis has almost become an universal myth by today's standards, much more than the Erinyes/Furies, who are less universal probably because their function is tied to some typically Greek concepts like Nemesis and Hubris. Thus, it might be more coherent to have these Greek references partly originate from the DBT (since it's a mishmash of everything imaginable) rather than solely from the Zealian cultural sphere.
The second reason has to do with... Advent Children. Square already used the theme of triple vengeful beings appearing after the death of someone who wanted to be immortal. Our Furies are different on many points, but adding the DBT plot detail can only help strenghten this differentiation.
Apart from this relatively minor detail, the rest is definitely good and feasible. I'm definitely satisfied with this version of the sidequest (although I'm by no mean the unique decision-maker; if someone wants to object, as always just voice your opinion freely). I especially like the fact that the other characters are involved by defending Magus; it fits with the themes of personal attachment and reconciliation that we tried, and hopefully managed, to make central in the story.
-
I don't care how we put it in, I just want to see that in the game. Where would you like to fight them in the DBT? Give me an idea so I can make a map.
-
They were pulled out of the DBT, but they don't actually return there; they'll probably be fought in a 11998 BC cave or snowfield after Khrusaor. See this topic for what was imagined: http://www.chronocompendium.com/Forums/index.php/topic,3632.0.html
-
Alrighty, sounds good. Thanks. :)
By the way, I was just looking at TF, and I can't figure how to edit strings in the 255 version. Well, strings is find, but there is no dialogue subheading like there was in 107.
-
It's location-by-location now. Click events on the sidebar after loading a location, and you'll find the dialogue interwoven with the event code.
-
Oh, okay, thanks.
Though I think TF is a bit too complex for me to figure out at this time. It'd take quite long for me to be able to do much of anything in it other than just change dialogue or silly things like that.
-
We should be getting the plot on the Wiki (on a difficult to guess page, like Term/Aafdd813fasdf09 or something). But every time I try to finish these concert / doujin pages, something new explodes in my face. Plus, I've had to analyze that entire V-Jump video...maintaining the Compendium seems like it's getting harder paradoxically. I have to write the Chrono Cross feature now, too.
-
Actually, forget what I said. I actually did manage to sort of put things together in a bit of a battle thing (got most of the speech and all... the Furies look like Naga-ettes, replacing Ozzie, Flea, and Slash). From what I found, just make sure you'd don't do a simply being in party function for the dialogue... we don't want that. We want the party leader only to be addressed. Save the value of the party leader (PC1) in memory and then do a sort of comparison, ie. if(memory)=1 then go through the Crono loop. That way it will only go through one set of speeches, rather than all for whoever is in the party.
-
Okay. And for the record, unless someone really objects, I think it's agreed that Crono will speak in this game since he isn't the main character (all the party is) and to allow for a better Crono/Marle development (they're married!).
-
Sounds good. I always preferred the idea that Crono wasn't 'really' mute.
-
What will his tone be like though? That's the one problem I have with having him talk. Every other character has a sort of tone we are able to mimic so their dialog sounds Chrono Trigger Authentic. Crono doesn't have one, and I'm afraid that people might get angry over the way he speaks.
-
The manga gives him a sort of "cool dude adventurer" one, like a mix of Toma and Japanese Glenn. Still, I think they lay it on a little too heavy given the seriousness of Crimson Echoes. But perhaps that archetype is still great: a usually easygoing, fun guy with an adventurous spirit. Sound cliché enough...?
...But we can just write dialogue for the first part, and then force the inactive team members to watch the patch and gauge their reaction and adjust accordingly.
-
Sounds good.
By the way, TF is making a little more sense to me now. I'm having to backward engineer existing scenes to get an idea of how things are done. Whatever I do, though, is bound to be rather inefficient and clumsy, but as an idea for things it might work. I'm trying to get the 'Furies' scene put together... when I've done so I'll send you the example, just for fun. Like I said, though, make sure to make the dialogue party leader specific, rather than just 'in party' specific.
-
One possible problem with putting the plot on a wiki page: Recent Changes.
-
Hey, um, guys, there's no possible way for you to borrow the coding I've done for that scene, is there? I mean, could you just shift things over to put it onto the map you want? I suppose it would require editing some coordinates (unless you've not used the 'Ozzie's Last Stand' room), but meh. It seems to work pretty darn well.
-
Yep. The Export option will let us import that event packet.
-
Yep. The Export option will let us import that event packet.
Oooh, nice! Because I think it actually worked out not too badly. It can use some tweaks, of course (by people that actually know how to use the program), but it's more or less alright. I am able to have the characters move and have little animations and all that. Actually, the only thing that's eluded me is making the necessity of having Janus in the party. I'm not sure how to do that, and looking at the other events provided no insight. Hmph. Well, others can take care of that. When I'm done I'll export it and you guys can take a look at it.
Actually, see how this work in progress is. It belongs with the 'Ozzies Last Stand' map.
[attachment deleted by admin]
-
Congratulations. The use of sound effects and animations was fresh. I had Frog in the party, and it was good seeing him defend Magus. The writing was good.
But I can't imagine what it would be like if it actually took place in the Darkness Beyond Time, with whatever tileset we choose, and with an atmosphere in the player's mind already cultivated. The atmosphere I speak of is what I felt when the battle begun and I heard none other than the ruined future theme. Man, that was bleak and threatening; the effect could be enhanced by having something other than "Black Dream" play before the encounter. But of course, I know it's just a work in progress, and that such presentation decisions haven't been made yet. And adding foreshadowing to that...the fates would be terrifying. But as it stands, you are now more capable of Chrono Trigger modding than the vast body of fans, even with such an easy gesture. I guess that speaks negatively of the fanbase...
-
Congratulations. The use of sound effects and animations was fresh. I had Frog in the party, and it was good seeing him defend Magus. The writing was good.
But I can't imagine what it would be like if it actually took place in the Darkness Beyond Time, with whatever tileset we choose, and with an atmosphere in the player's mind already cultivated. The atmosphere I speak of is what I felt when the battle begun and I heard none other than the ruined future theme. Man, that was bleak and threatening; the effect could be enhanced by having something other than "Black Dream" play before the encounter. But of course, I know it's just a work in progress, and that such presentation decisions haven't been made yet. And adding foreshadowing to that...the fates would be terrifying. But as it stands, you are now more capable of Chrono Trigger modding than the vast body of fans, even with such an easy gesture. I guess that speaks negatively of the fanbase...
Heh, thanks. I thought the defence of Janus is what's most important. That he sees how they are fighting his battles, when classically he's wanted to fight them alone. That's why I saw it as not working in a dream sequence... that would just be him winning on his own again. That's nice, but it would be good to develop his character to show some regard to his allies, which I think this does. Nonetheless, if it can be woven into the area of the Darkness, I suppose that would be neat. Regarding the sound and the music, I actually did that all just very last minute without much thought. I knew I wanted something softer for that battle, but that's it. As you said, such decisions really haven't been made yet.
Heh, well, to be honest, this is a really tough system to work with. Because it's constraining itself to the Trigger rules, there isn't much you can do in some ways, and you don't have much room for all too much creativity. Really, I have a far better time with RPG maker. Now and again I use that program, and the stuff I do with that is way better than anything I could do with TF. The RPGmaker graphics aren't that great, but it's so flixible. Not Trigger stuff... actually, off on and for like six years now I've worked on a Tolkien Silmarillion based RPG. ... (continued in a PM, ZeaLitY)
-
I've watched the scene. It could perhaps be a bit longer, but it's definitely a good scene (curiously, we often have to shorten scenes when they're too text-heavy, but here it's the opposite). In any case, it'll be awesome once the whole game is coded and we begin the graphic hacking phase. We could perhaps add small wings to these Furies or something...
-
I've watched the scene. It could perhaps be a bit longer, but it's definitely a good scene (curiously, we often have to shorten scenes when they're too text-heavy, but here it's the opposite). In any case, it'll be awesome once the whole game is coded and we begin the graphic hacking phase. We could perhaps add small wings to these Furies or something...
Odd, yeah, because I in especial tend towards the long-winded. Guess I was trying for something more fitting, there. To be honest I was really proud of it on those grounds alone. I could easily add more dialogue, of course, but I figured that at least at first brevity would be better, and let actions speak louder than words.
Oh, yeah, wings on furies. Sweet!
-
About the Dragon Tooth:
Looking back, there are still some issues with the plot point I proposed (here (http://www.chronocompendium.com/Forums/index.php/topic,3461.msg84097.html#msg84097)).
Firstly, it doesn't explain how Chronopolis is re-powered: the party is supposed to go to Prehistory to find a power source, but the Dragon Tooth doesn't fit this role in the end. Secondly, I'm currently coding/recoding the scene before the Reptite timeline (the Atash Kedah), and it's very complicated due to all the characters present on screen: 6 PCs, Ayla, Zeal, Flame, Dragon Tooth, male Reptite. It's definitely not impossible to code, but it's awkward with all the separate-but-still-related things that happen and that are learned. The appearance of a male Reptite in the scene also turns out a bit random.
Perhaps the Dragon Tooth should remain an artifact. For the record, the whole point of its presence in the plot is to give a reason for the party to go to Prehistory, but its origin is a bit underdeveloped.
So perhaps we can have this: the Dragon Tooth is an artifact created by the Reptites after Lavos' arrival to remember all their fallen comrades. It's a ceremonial totem partly made of Reptite bones and it is used to communicate with the dead. It's not particularly useful as such, but the reason it can power Chronopolis efficiently is because it "smells" like the Black Wind (Black Energy in Japanese), and Belthasar could modify it to channel energy directly from the "void".
So, the party goes to Prehistory and retrieves this Dragon Tooth, and when they encounter King Zeal in the crater, it falls into a Gate leading to 3 million B.C., where the Frozen Flame recreates a bunch of Reptites from the bones that compose the Tooth. These Reptites then go to war with humans and the timeline eventually become the "Reptite timeline" as seen by the party in 1 A.D., 2302 A.D. and 1002 A.D.
This creation of soldiers is obviously inspired by the Greek myth of the Dragon's teeth (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragon%27s_teeth_%28mythology%29). Here however, the Reptites soldiers appear in 3 million B.C. and only because of King Zeal, so this puts the Greek influence more on that later era than on 64,999,998 B.C., and I guess it's okay (64,999,998 B.C. shouldn't be Hellenized, it needs to be universal).
~
And another thing... It's slightly unrelated, but I should post it before I forget.
What is the Temporal Catch:
It's an unnoticeable but huge energy field set up by Belthasar around Chronopolis and which pulls temporal strain on it, basically turning it into the "the space-time coordinates of least resistance". With it, Chronopolis effectively replaces the End of Time (except it's not in a Pocket Dimension), and thus all the Gates that should lead to the End of Time lead to Chronopolis instead.
This explains why the party always arrive in the time fortress when they use a Gate or break a Time Egg, and why they sometime do it with more than 3 peoples. When King Zeal rampages Chronopolis near the end of the game, the Temporal Catch is broken and this is why the party can go to rescue Gaspar. It's then repaired when the 3 Gurus return.
This thing indirectly foreshadow something huge about Chrono Cross. This doesn't really affect the plot, but this should be kept in mind when writing dialogues: by the end of the game, Belthasar indeed possesses:
- the Temporal Catch (a system that seriously weakens the fabric of time on Chronopolis' coordinates),
- the Dragon Tooth (a direct connection with the energy of the void),
- the Frozen Flame (a direct connection with Lavos).
Combine all these stuff and you get... yes, the Time Crash! The Temporal Catch diminished the "resistance" of Chronopolis' coordinates so much that it resulted in a permanent "hole"...
~
So, any thought on these two points?
-
I've been trying to think of a way to easily track progress. In the past, we've had elaborate threads with uneven posts, or the CE wiki (I have the backup of that still).
I think a columnar format maybe with colors could work, but I'm not sure how we'd set it up on the internet. It'd easily work with an Excel spreadsheet, but then only one person would be able to keep track of it. I guess that's not so bad unless that person disappears.
But more discussion is needed. Here's my example:
[attachment deleted by admin]
-
I guess the second point solves that problem. Might have to revise the Toma part of the Porre Lab quest if he's still in, as it says "they would end up in the End of Time if they'd use the Epoch". -Edit: That mention of the Epoch was out already.
How do they get the Dragon Tooth to use? Do they find it after it's been around for all those years or they somehow retrieve it from 3 million B.C?
-
I guess they retrieve it in some cave in Chapter 12 when they get the Epoch, before the Cakulha stuff. Sorin could have given them a clue as to where he'd be and the party would have to search for it in 1002 A.D... or 602 A.D.
-
- added a few lines foreshadowing the big relation between Lavos and humanity: the party thinks King Zeal is possessed by Lavos, but King Zeal claims it's the opposite, that the Flame is his hostage
I'm quoting myself from another topic, but this just gave me an idea... Currently, the final battle is supposed to be fought against King Zeal in the DBT before his merging with the Time Devourer; the latter is discussed and probably seen, but he isn't fought, and the merging is prevented by King Zeal's defeat.
However, to bring a final twist to the adventure, how about this plot point: King Zeal is so strongwilled and determined that he isn't really absorbed by Lavos. Rather, it's Lavos who is absorbed by King Zeal, thus resulting in a new entity controlled by King Zeal, who doesn't want to devour space-time but return in the timeline to... create a supernatural empire and conquer the universe... or maybe resume Lavos's quest for the meaning of life, but in a way much more rapid and violent than Lavos's regular life cycle...
The merging wouldn't be complete, since the TD has to survive for Chrono Cross. What we could have is the two beings still separated, but with a sort of huge energy vortex effect coming from the TD in the background to a metamorphosed King Zeal in the foreground, with the party at the bottom of the screen fighting him.
This is just a rough idea, as the goal of that almighty King Zeal is a bit sketchy. It would have to be something different than both Lavos's and the Time Devourer's goals, but still obviously something "evil", that the party would want to prevent.
This idea also kind of shifts, in the end, the feeling of "ultimate menace" from Lavos to King Zeal, so if it's implemented badly it could make Lavos looks too much like a wussy emo puppet while King Zeal would possibly seem too incredibly powerful. Yet, having the TD absorbed into King Zeal and fighting it would sort of neatly wraps up many story arcs of the game, since Schala but also Cedric the Executor are supposed to be part of that TD (though Cedric is just "felt", not seen since it happened long before Schala).
I don't know if this idea is good, overall. In the current scenario, the TD is seen but doesn't act; this is okay as the focus of the game is King Zeal, but it might possibly leave players slightly unsatisfied. Then again, if they feel the urge to play Chrono Cross after they finish Crimson Echoes, that's perfectly fine. Thoughts?
-
Would he be like Queen Zeal on the Black Omen?
-
Dunno... Perhaps something a bit different to have something original. But he'll probably have a special "final boss" design regardless of the plot point we choose for the final battle, anyway. I think it'd be a bit anticlimactic to have him remain in a regular human form.
-
Rename the attachment to .xml, and open with a text editor I guess. That's the CE Wiki from before. We can find and replace the markup and add it directly to the new Term/CE location in the encyclopedia.
It's also got the earlier plot draft if someone wants to save that as a subsection of the current plot page.
Edit: Went ahead and added all previous drafts.
[attachment deleted by admin]
-
After retrieving the Flame, Lavos simply destroyed it, or something
So if the Frozen Flame was important to Guardia's rise, how did it rise in the Lavos timeline?
-
Before the 602 A.D. Porre / Mystics altercation:
Porre is at war with Guardia
Both sides are stalled at Zenan Bridge
The existence of the Vanguard doesn't really change the situation
Buuut, has King Zeal or Porre already assassinated the Mystic elder to ally Medina with Porre? I know that was in the previous version of the plot, but it's not in here. So two questions:
- Should 602 A.D. materially alter 1002 A.D.? Cause in the plot it says Porre is hostile but Medina is friendly, etc. we could do this with a lot of conditionals for the NPCs without really changing much dramatically.
- Should Porre ally with Medina before the 602 A.D. thing with the Mystic elder already assassinated, or should we just wait and say, if you help Porre, the Mystics are allied with Porre, if you help the Mystics, Porre hates you a lot more (suggestions for how to represent this?), and if you do nothing, the Mystics are allied with Porre, except the situation is worse (suggestions for this also?)
Oh yeah, and it's nice seeing the Vanguard pop up. You really get the sense that time was changed severely when the Masamune was removed. I just noticed also that the debug room NPCs represent the different chapters.
-
I like the conditional depending on what you do in 600 ad. Maybe we can keep the assassination but have the cyborg do it? We should make it more obvious what happened through dialogue or even a cut scene.
Jp
-
I assumed that the removal of the Masamune also led to someone else becoming the leader of Medina.
-
Actually yes that is a much simpler solution. Perhaps the dialogue could talk about kasmira demise had zeal not come along then? Also we could have a scenario where If Marle goes to the elder she asks where the old one is and he mentions him being a peasant at the town square? The history of kasmir is a perfect chance to use the historian in the bar.
Jp
-
Okay, great. So in case the player goes to 1002 A.D. before 602 A.D., I'll write a few lines of dialogue where needed as sort of a baseline. Then the lines will change according to what happened.
-
Ok just remember that before chapter 3 kasmir is a nobody he gains power due to the lack of the masamune.
Jp
-
Can we make it rain in the Millennial Fair, or is the layer 3 just not right for it?
-
I'd have to check the L3. If it's unused we should be able to.
--JP
-
I'll go ahead and keep working on the lines. Truce and Guardia Castle are done, leaving the Vanguard, Porre, Leene Square, and Fiona's Shrine. My idea was to have it rain at the Fair (since it never rains in the entire Chrono series really), but if you chose Medina or Porre the NPCs will still be out there enjoying the rainy day. Neither makes things a little more gloomy.
I'll go ahead and talk about the stuff to watch for...
- The Central Regime lines that should appear in Chapter 2 are at the end of the spreadsheet (the ones for Chapter 4 are in Chapter 4)
- There are some requests to add NPCs or change them in the dialogue, not the scene whines, and often they overflow beneath the dialogue cell to the right (yeah so obviously highlighting them will let you read it, so simple and I know you knew but just want to be totally safe in case)
- 1002 A.D. after the decision gets COMPLICATED so I divided lines up into five segments. 1 is Medina if you chose Porre or did nothing. 3 is lines for 1002 A.D. if you chose Medina (and Medina lines if you chose them will be here), 4 is lines for 1002 A.D. if you chose Porre, and 5 is if you chose neither. 2 is new Choras lines, which are the same for all scenarios (they really don't care over there). Basically, Medina has a bad attitude unless you choose Medina, so they get the same lines for those two other options.
- I put 3, 4, and 5 one after the other in the Chapter 5 section. There are requests to change NPCs to different ones depending on the decision, so it's probably easiest to do one location, then skip down to the next decision section and do the same location there, etc. instead of doing all 1002 A.D. for one, then all for the next.
Man, I hope it's not too much of a headache. I can't believe how immersive it's going to be now. I'm almost worried that we'll hit the size limit or something with all the dialogue.
-
Using round2throughChapter2.ips, the entrance area and Gato's area have no layer 3. The Hero's Gallery has a small piece of layer 3 which seems out of place. Nadia's Bell area has layer 3 for shadows and the Telepod has the layer 3 clouds for the gate.
-
King Guardia XXI would also remember the original timeline thanks to TTI (but not the changed timeline after it's fixed)...but I suppose he'd keep quiet about it. It's really bad for people to think the king is delusional.
Yeah, most people accept Glenn overall since he does create the Vanguard (who aren't corrupted fascists until the future era), but a few still think his mind isn't exactly sane. Without the King's protection, people would have thought he was crazy when he appeared out of nowhere in 600 A.D. talking about the war being finished and Cyrus and himself being heroes, etc.
What are your thoughts on this?
-
Ah, I see in the latest patch Glenn says noone remembers him I think he even mentions the King by name. He would have TTI since the assumed canon ending is the one whre Lucca brings them all to the present? This would have to be fixed via dialogue so i'll leave it up to Zeality.
--JP
-
Damn, what a catch. Thanks.
-
Are we going to stick with the ending Jsondag has in the ROM, or try to make it closer to the plot outline?
-
I dont see many more changes being made unless they are pretty awesome :)
Are you talking the final dungeon or the actual ending? Is there something you are particularly unhappy with? The plot is pretty vague with the ending and I though I depicted it pretty well for what I had to go with? It doesn't mention the fall of guardia in the plot but it is from a thread Chrono 99 made.
The dungoen I sort of went away from the plot. I really wanted to do the "two party" sequence and everything sort of grew from there. I really like the mashup of time, though I can see the "discarded piece of timelines" being interesting. We could potentially make "ghost" appear after you do the battles in the room and give a similar effect.
I guess i should stop randing and see exactly what you want :)
--JP
-
I'm not sure how different it is. But King Zeal seems to have lost the "in control" part, screaming when he merges with the Frozen Flame.
-
Hm, I dont see anything here about screaming while he merges? http://chronocompendium.com/Term/CE/Plot.html#Chapter_23:_Where_Dreams_go_to_Die. I do have a small part that can be expanded where Zeal and the flame are seperated (after you fight zeal, before the zeal + hands fight). I think he screams when he pushes the PC out of the way and merges?
I always looked at it as Zeal was fighting as hard as he could to fight the merge but eventually gives in. I keep him in control up until the gurus leave him. The pressure of losing schala, plus New Zeal failing, plus gurus leaving him is where he gives up and the flame takes control. This is shown in a new scene I added after you beat Dalton in new Zeal. When he is glows red is when the flame has control.
--JP
-
Well, I'm saying he kind of screams when he merges in your CE skeleton. I wasn't talking about the plot outline then. I don't know if it's better or not, just saying it's different.
-
Ohhh, for some reasonly i totally ignored your punctuation markes haha. I read it as:
I'm not sure how different it is. But King Zeal seems to have lost the ["in control" part screaming when he merges with the Frozen Flame.]
so i was like....but he does scream when he merges with the flame haha. Um, we'll leave it up to zeality. I guess i did veer away from King Zeal being in control...i actually though chrono 99 was going more towards King Zeal "thinking" he's in control. (there are a couple things in the plot outline pointing towards this). I'm willing to add new scenes we'll see what Z comes up with fo rdialogue.
--JP
-
Now that CE is set five years after CT instead of two, will that affect what sprites we use for some characters?
-
Probably not. It's not a very long span of time; Luccia would be 13 instead of 10, etc.
-
Issue: even if Sorin stops the Dragon Tooth from being Gated, it would still go to the Frozen Flame thanks to TTI.
-
The idea was that Sorin followed the Dragon Tooth and killed off the recreated Reptites. At least, that was how it was in the plot outline before the most recent plot revisions.
-
Yeah, I guess the idea is that when Crono, Glenn and Magus arrive in Prehistory, they say that something should be done with the Dragon Tooth but they panic and don't know what to do exactly. Then Sorin (who thinks faster thanks to being a cyborg) decides to simply jump in the Dragon Tooth portal and stop the Tooth or the resurrected Reptites on the other side of the portal, in 3 million B.C.
-
I noticed some of the recent changes to the plot
# 2305 - Belthasar breaks the argument by meeting arriving agents, who bring with them Cakulha (who lives now that history removed the Vanguard) and Toma XIII, who stumbled upon the Millennial Fair Gate. (We have to give him TTI or he would cease to exist when Toma's brought to 1005 A.D.)
Why exactly is Cakulha alive? Was there no rebellion to join or something?
Not really important, but Toma XIII's going to find that no-one knows him. Would Toma even have a museum anymore?
-
Yeah. He'd still try to find Chronopolis, except this time around, Chronopolis sort of found him. Curious, he didn't put up a fight.
We're adding a line about illegitimate children that shouldt ake care of the entire Toma XIII thing.
-
In your current dialogue you have the "evil medina" elder...shouldn't it revert back to Mitch? Though Medina is definitely anti Guardia but we should atleast mention how Mitch got thrown out of power.
--JP
-
Some questions.
King Zeal and Schala were the latest Arbiters.
Why are they the latest? Were they ever Arbiters before Belthasar revived King Zeal?
605 - The party find the Imps dead and return to find everyone else gone.
It's minor, but would the Vanguard TL be slightly different in the short period between this and restoring the TL?
With the AEA, can Belthasar really blame Crono's team for not destroying the past Flame and Schala falling into the DBT?
-
Yeah, that's possibly changed. I made it so Belthasar also just wants to aggravate the Frozen Flame, not destroy it, but that aggravating it still carries the risk of altering it so that Cedric couldn't use it.
-
I misworded the sentence with "latest". Basically the list of arbiters is as follows:
(The first modern human in 3 million B.C.) -> (a few unknown people) -> King Zeal -> Schala -> (a few unknown people) -> Cedric -> (a few unknown people) -> King Zeal revived by Belthasar -> (Serge after CE)
Belthasar and Antaeus make use of the Flame but are not arbiters. In the game, the Flame's normal frame should be the "round" one and it only opens itself into the "flame" form when Zeal, Schala or Cedric are around.
-
Chronopolis picks up the signature of Sorin and the Dragon's Tooth, and an agent retrieves them with a Time Egg.
I thought the "I-FOUND-THE-DRAGON-TOOTH-LYING-ON-THE-GROUND" was stupid, but Sorin self-destructs, so that sacrifice would have to be removed for this.
This also seems like another case of Chronopolis having some kind of "temporal sensors".
-
Yeah, I guess that's one of the more "cloudy" points in the plot, because I made it so that the Dragon Tooth gets destroyed but I had forgotten that it actually has to be intact and retrieved to power Chronopolis. This temporal trip takes care of the "retrieve" part, but not the "it has to be intact" bit.
Moreover, dealing with these non "Blue Gates" trips is tricky...We have the Time Egg stuff but we can't use it too often as Time Eggs are supposed to be really hard to make (apparently only Gaspar ever managed to create complete ones, not Belthasar nor Lucca). And even with incomplete Eggs it's still too convenient; we use like 3 or 4 of these legendary items at this point. The temporal sensor is also too convenient...
Perhaps instead of the Dragon Tooth the party finds some sort of Elemental power source on Cakhula in the Missile Base? I have to go...will think of other possible solutions.
-
One of the reasons I have Sorin still alive in a Chronopolis safehouse is to sort of suggest that his arm will become the StrongArm later stored in Chronopolis.
-
yea, we added it back in (albeit kind of in a corny way) for a few reasons:
* the strong arm tie in that zeality mentioned.
* quite a bit of dialogue mentioning it after
* even more dialogue mentioning it before
We couldn't just have them completely forget the power problem they had been talking about for the last 2 chapters and had gone so far as to send the party back to 65 mil. We didn't want to take the time right in the middle of zeality's playthrough to add something new.
Is is possible to have sorin just enter a "limit break" mode and jump through the portal and fight off any reptites that merge with it? He can then appear in a forest all wrecked (think robo after fiona), still protecting the dragon tooth?
--JP
Time Egg uses:
Recover King Zeal
Recover Notes
Final Dungeon
Recover Dragon Tooth
are there more?
-
The plot says that King Zeal was resurrected, so that shouldn't be a Time Egg use.
Also, the party was supposed to return to Chronopolis after the Flame dungeons through time eggs, at least according to what Chrono'99 said back in 2007.
-
Well they go to the black omen through normal usage correct? It's the anniversary of the incident or whatever so it works out?
I was under the impression that belth lied about him being resurrected but he actually saved him (seen in the secret scene when you activate the computer terminal on the left of the TDC). That could also be me just doing my own thing :) Also the date of that scene is ambiguous so it could have happened on a year anniversary as well.
--JP
-
Anniversary doesn't matter; the Blue Gates only exist in the "present" time (CT time periods + time passed since then).
Belthasar was the one who resurrected King Zeal.
He uses the Frozen Flame, its generator, and a Time Egg to resurrect friends and others.
King Zeal resurrects Schala with the Flame’s power. He does this instead of simply preventing her from dying in the past, because he wants her to experience the same thing he has experienced.
-
Oh yea I'm an idiot about the blue gates :-/ haha.
I think the current path we took is to have an agent extract King Zeal from the timeline at the last moment...
I feel like that seems a bit more plausible than belthasar somehow resurrecting him? I dont mind Zeal + Flame resurrecting schala that is a LITTLE less out there. I dont know what are other peoples opinions?
--JP
-
You can feel free to lift an idea from AEHU, which is that anti-annihilation energy can literally "anti-annihilate" objects that the Frozen Flame previously annihilated. If it vaporized King Zeal, it can reassemble his atoms if manipulated properly. Maybe the FF "hears"
Gaspar's (oops!) dream of seeing Alphard again and decides to make that wish come true?
Actually, that's exactly the direction I thought CE was going to take when I read the plot synopsis, so I was literally borrowing the idea from CE. I guess I'm giving it back. :D
-
Is is possible to have sorin just enter a "limit break" mode and jump through the portal and fight off any reptites that merge with it? He can then appear in a forest all wrecked (think robo after fiona), still protecting the dragon tooth?
That wouldn't be possible as Sorin is a human with cyborg implants, rather than a complete robot. Mmh, the Dragon Tooth is connected to the void, so we could perhaps have Sorin use it to remain as a ghost to protect it (a kind of throwback to the scrapped Valle Crimse ghost knight from the sidequest thread I guess). But is it...believable? I mean, a cyborg ghost living for 62 million years...
Concerning the StrongArm, what's curious is that Norris says it was "in development in Porre", but it was also "excavated near an ancient ruin" according to Luccia and destroyed when Norris "caused the explosion in the lab". Kinda hard to reconcile these statements, though I guess different things could have happened in the two different dimensions. For Sorin, I tried thinking about a solution involving our own Porre Lab, which would fit all three statements (Porre excavates Sorin, tries to repair him, before the party takes him back to Chronopolis), but that can't be as I would be mistaking Norris for William.
Perhaps we can just have Chronopolis excavate the Dragon Tooth in 2,305 A.D. (offscreen, during Marle's Antaeus chapter), thanks to Crono/Glenn/Magus's report of their adventure in Prehistory. They would simply repair the Tooth, and would have found the cybernetic components of Sorin's dead body too, including his arm. That only partially explains the StrongArm but I guess there are enough theories out there for the "in development in Porre" bit (this could be something that happens only after the Time Crash of CC).
---
Time Egg uses:
1 Recover King Zeal
2 Arrival in Chronopolis (prologue)
3 Recover Notes
(4 Recover Dragon Tooth?)
5 Black Omen Trip
6 Final Dungeon
I like FaustWolf's idea of Belthasar (not Gaspar) using the FF anti-annihilation energy to "wish" King Zeal back (eh, that sounds like Abel wishing Elly from the Zohar in Xenogears). However, I think Zeality wanted to use the RD concept that the Frozen Flame + a Time Egg = control over space-time. Presumably using a Time Egg for that purpose won't shatter it, though RD is vague on this.
At most, we could lower the count to 4 Time Eggs if we don't use one for the Dragon Tooth and if the one used for the final dungeon is actually the one that was used to resurrect King Zeal. In Chapter 21 "Let us Part in Zealous Regret", King Zeal would simply leave his Time Egg to the party when he "invites" them into the Spire of Telos/DBT:
1 Recover King Zeal / Final Dungeon
2 Arrival in Chronopolis (prologue)
3 Recover Notes
4 Black Omen Trip
-
Concerning the StrongArm, what's curious is that Norris says it was "in development in Porre", but it was also "excavated near an ancient ruin" according to Luccia and destroyed when Norris "caused the explosion in the lab". Kinda hard to reconcile these statements, though I guess different things could have happened in the two different dimensions. For Sorin, I tried thinking about a solution involving our own Porre Lab, which would fit all three statements (Porre excavates Sorin, tries to repair him, before the party takes him back to Chronopolis), but that can't be as I would be mistaking Norris for William.
Offtopic.
[System]
There's a mysterious being inside.
How coult that be "a being"?
Doesn't that a canon or a gun?
BTW, its JPN name is Dark Burst. It makes sense why it was translated as StrongArm, since Grobyc equips that as his robotic arm.