Chrono Compendium
Enhasa Halls - Chrono Series Analysis => Magic, Elements, and Technology => Topic started by: Aitrus on December 18, 2003, 12:43:15 am
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I like that line of thinking that GrayLensman used. By saying that the elements from CC are akin to a "sub-layer" of the four CT types, the comparison can be made to Classical Physics and Quantum Physics, each one matching up to the magic types respectively.
Classical Physics is the general Newtonian physics, a description of the world as we see it presented to it. A car is a perfect example of a classical object. It will move when a force is applied, and will remain at rest when a force is not. It has weight and mass, has inertia, and generally behaves like it should behave.
Quantum Physics, on the other hand, is an attempt to describe the world according to what little we know about the subatomic domain. In the attempt, we find that the world is not such an orderly place as Classical descriptions would have us believe. It contains such wierdness as the electron cloud (where an electron in an atom has no particular point where it is, but instead has a certain region where it is "probable" that it is) and the principle of particle-wave duality (which says that light is both a particle and a wave, exhibiting the properties of both).
Anyway, the comparison I draw is this: Quantum Physics is more powerful that Classical Physics. This is easily shown in the comparison of the power of a Nuclear bomb when compared to conventional bombs. A nuke uses the power of the atom to destroy its target, while a conventional bomb uses Classical methods. This is the most likely explanation for why Dinopolis was defeated by Chronopolis, even though both had gotten to a similar point in technology.
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Small inquiry. I noticed that Spekkio recognizes inherent leanings towards magic innate types in every character but Frog, whom he designates Water due to his appearance. Might this be a case of Glenn having little magic orientation, or perhaps Spekkio can advance one's ability for magic against any initial leanings?
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I'm bringing back this old topic, because I'm thinking about writing/drawing/maybe even programming something, and I don't want to get the magic all screwed up. The problem is that it's also been a long time since I last played Chrono Trigger.
I've skimmed through this thread, reading good parts of many of the posts, and I think a lot of the ideas here are too focused on the elements that exist or the idea of a single real source of magic.
I'm pretty sure that all of the types of magic used in all Chrono games come from a process that involves the concentration of energy or life force (e.g. the cycle of life and death such as with a planet's life stream, large and highly evolved organisms such as lavos, or solar energy such as with the sun stone). As organisms live around these energies, they evolve to tap into them and use them. That's why Ayla can't use magic, but Crono can.
In this aspect, Mystics are more capable of using magic, because they're higher up on the evolutionary scale in terms of magic. Humans moved away from being able to use magic for the same reason they don't have tails anymore: they don't need it.
There may also be other reasons related to events happening after the fall of Zeal, possibly involving a backlash against strong magic users by the majority of people, who couldn't use magic anymore.
Zeal was originally built out of the power of the sun stone. The nobility and royalty of Zeal became so, because they were the first magic using humans. They probably lived in clans near the sun stone, and as their clans advanced, they built cities and soon learned to make machines that could take advantage of the sun stone's energy.
Of course, many non-magic using citizens existed in this society, since the Earthbound ones were said to come from Zeal. Machines and cities, not to mention large numbers of people, create a heavy draw of energy (look at our electricity usage today compared to fifty or sixty years ago). Eventually a source such as the sun stone would wear out, which is why the discovery of Lavos was so important to them.
The first evolutionary step in magic use is being able to use energy from a strong, concentrated source (e.g. Sun stone or lavos) to create magic effects, although it may require they stand in a refined source of radiated energy for a period of time (e.g. the Mammon machine). This is how many Zealians used magic, and why they couldn't after the fall of zeal.
This first step starts with being able to use magic through direct contact, then being able to temporarily store magic energies for later use.
Elements from CC can be considered a store of energy created and refined to a specific element over time from small sources. Users are still creating the magic effect, even though the energy used comes from the store. Because elements are highly refined into specific forms (e.g. a Heal element has healing properties), they are easy to use for any creature evolved in channeling energies. They're like magic batteries.
The next step is evolving to be able to refine your own energies to use magic with. This is how the Zeal royal family used magic, although using other sources such as the Mammon machine magnifies their power. This ability can become innate however, if a species doesn't make use of it.
This step is similar to creating elements within your body. Kind of an element glucose. Different people would naturally evolve to be able to create different types of element glucose, although highly evolved beings (e.g. Magus) could create many sorts of elemental glucose.
Magic using humans became more prevalent in Zeal because they used magic, and also due to their close-proximity to refined energies (just like living on Earth causes creatures to evolve eyes because there is light). After Zeal, there was much less exposure to these things, so humans naturally moved away from magic (many deep-sea creatures are blind).
However, so long as technology does not fully replace magic, humans would still evolve towards being able to create energies. After all, some creatures in the deep sea evolve to see, although there's no naturally occurring light down there. They evolve to create their own light.
So then, why can't Crono use magic to begin with? And how is Spekkio able to make him use magic? The answer is simple, Crono is already advanced enough to use magic (that is, create his own magic energy). However, having never used it his body doesn't bother refining any.
What Spekkio does is create an initial store of refined element glucose in Crono that allows him to use basic Lightning spells. Being exposed to this, his body learns to create this special glucose (which it already did in a less refined form, allowing the Slash ability). By exercising this new skill, Crono's body is able to create more refined element glucose that can create even greater lightning effects.
When Magus transforms Glen into Frog, he changes many parts of Glen's genetic makeup. Frogs, living in water, have greater tendencies towards evolving magic abilities related to water. After all, they spend most of their time in it. This means Glen as Frog would be more inclined towards water-based magic.
Also, the idea the Lavos would try to speed the evolution of magic refining life forms makes a lot of sense, since Lavos is a high-energy life form, and requires very refined/concentrated sources of energy to survive and reproduce. Causing these beings to then advance towards technology use would ensure that they would spread in great number.
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In this aspect, Mystics are more capable of using magic, because they're higher up on the evolutionary scale in terms of magic. Humans moved away from being able to use magic for the same reason they don't have tails anymore: they don't need it.
While that evolutionary process is true, we don't need tails...There are still plenty of varius segments of the human body that are no longer necessary. This is true with other species as well. Sometimes evolution declares it not relevent to get rid of certain traits. Magic seems too important to just die out in that manner. How would Magic be useless? How about one of the most common of human activities: wars? I don't think so.
Oh, and Ayla's Tech, Tail Spin=Magical
There are various abilities that are classified as being Magical without being "Magic". Like Crono's Slash Tech.
*And then I stopped reading!*
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I didn't say humans weren't able to use magic anymore, but moved away from it. That is, their natural ability to use it was reduced or became less prevalent. Read the entire post before you try to reply. I'd like to get opinions on the latter half.
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But, how comes every actions are "colored" in CC, even the physical attacks, whereas many aren't at all in CT (like Cyclone)? Some are though, like Slash and Tail Spin.
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Chrono'99: Zeality has my copy of CC, and I haven't played in a while, so I don't know what effects different attacks and elementals have too well on the color field. However, if all actions in CC have some sort of elemental effect, then that's a consequence of the color field itself and has to do with gameplay.
V_Translanka:
It's been a while since I last played. Could you expand on how Ayla's Tail Spin technique is "magical" ? What do you mean by magical?
Anyway, I should probably classify what magic means in my discussion. Magic is the ability to command elemental side-effects by channeling refined elemental energy. Just because something (e.g. using a flamethrower) causes elemental damage or side-effects doesn't make it magic.
I'm pretty sure any elemental side-effects from any of Ayla's techniques are achieved through brute force, making them not "magic" by my definition.
Robo's techniques are a bit in a gray area, since it's impossible to tell whether or not the process used to create his elemental damage through lasers is the same as, say, Magus casting one of his spells. It's most likely different though.
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Must we still reconcile the presence of more Cross Elements under this system -- the entire four basic elements vs. derivates? And this explanation also gives us in-depth detail and speculation on one of the fuzzy areas; we've been quoting magic as the biological ability to master the elements, and now have a deeper explanation.
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If Spekkio is taken literally and the 4 elements make up everything (ie the Universe) it wouldn't be a big stretch to describe the 6/7 elements as making up the Earth or perhaps just Life as it is on Earth.
Just as carbon et al make up the matter in our universe, plants make fuel out of the elements, and we further manipulate matter into other forms.
Sorry for the poor explanation.
If a plant takes minerals and makes nutrition for a cow, which then turns it into milk, which we then turn into ice cream it is still made up of the original minerals but is now in a much different form with different properties.
To conclude my "Ludicrous Food-Based Theorum" I would like to state that Lavos' power could be described as pure sugar. Very potent, very addictive, very hard to 'digest' in its purest state, and it rots your teeth (or maybe your magical ability/desire/will is warped in such a way that no one exposed to his power would think of manipulating the 4 elements to create the 6/7 element system).
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A minor point of note.
If magic (not color Elements) was Lavos based, how could it still be around after he was defeated?
The frozen flame was a part of Lavos and was still around and fully functional long after he was killed off, and was considered an all powerful artifact that connected the arbiter or user directly with Lavos, apparently after he was dead.
Given this and Lavos's propensity for generating time distortions as he pleased, he could of retroactivly used his influence to do as he pleased before he arrived and after he died.
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The magic the CT characters use probably isn't Lavos-based. Queen Zeal was trying to tap into that energy, which is more powerful than standard magic.
Although, this thought just came to me: What if the evolution of humans that the frozen flame supposedly caused wasn't standard evolution as we were thinking (bringing the "Apes" up to sentient status), but rather allowing them to use magic? This would neatly explain how the "Apes" of 65,000,000 BC seem so close to modern humans (if you except the speech patterns), yet can't use magic.
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Let us stop arguing semantics; through logic, we established that magic isn't Lavos-"based" several months ago when this site began, and if you play through Chrono Trigger, you'll know that the size of the human brain increased significantly, which is probably responsible for the improved speech of humans, higher thinking capacity, and ability to use magic.
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I surmise that since Kid is a daughter-clone of Schala, they would share the same genetic code. Magical ability appears to be hereditary, so that would mean Kid is an innate magic user. Kid never developed any magical ability in Chrono Cross, leading me to believe that no one, not even innate magic users, can use magic spontaneously. Crono and the others were fully innate, but they needed to have their ability unlocked by Spekkio. The innate magic users of the Zeal Kingdom would have undergone a similar process.
Perhaps on a related note, in Radical Dreamers, Kid expressed her innate ability as a result of extreme stress.
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I like Aitrus' comparison of CT and CC's magic to the Force for several reasons. First, all living things (humans, reptites, monsters, etc.) are connected to the Elements but only a few are innate magic users (i.e. Force sensitive) due to evolution of the brain or external stimuli (Lavos, Sun Stone, Spekkio, etc.) Even mechanical lifeforms like Robo have characteristics of elements like Shadow.
Second, each lifeform connects to the elements in their own way, in other words, their Innate Color. Races and individuals have varying connections, ex. the Mystics being more inclined than humans or Magus' power among the Zealians. (Remember, each party character in the series has their own Magic Stat.)
Finally, magic may be just one way of accessing the greater energies that make up the universe. "Human", "Reptite", and "Lavos" magic are probably different mediums to accessing this powers. Grids and Elements in CC may be one of those mediums, an artificial means to access "magic."
I figure I should stick this in here even if it's a little off-topic. The seventh element that the Chrono Cross uses may be related to the soul, or conciousness i.e. The Living Force. The Tears were able to sitch bodies and alter Serge's form as Lynx, possibly using his memory or even the memory of the Planet. The Cross was able to free Schala's consciousness by harmonizing the elements to seperate her from the alien entity.
I have some theories on Grids but that may have to be another topic.
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1. Robo itself (himself, i guess) doesn't have access to Shadow Magic, it's only said that his laser weapons produce a Shadow Magic-like effect. Just like how Crono's Slash tech produces a Lightning Magic-like effect without actually being 'Magic'.
2. The Elements are not artificial. They are processed and refined, but they are originally something close to an ore that comes from the earth at points of the earth called 'power points'.
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1. Robo itself (himself, i guess) doesn't have access to Shadow Magic, it's only said that his laser weapons produce a Shadow Magic-like effect. Just like how Crono's Slash tech produces a Lightning Magic-like effect without actually being 'Magic'.
2. The Elements are not artificial. They are processed and refined, but they are originally something close to an ore that comes from the earth at points of the earth called 'power points'.
Good points. When I meant artificial I should have said that Elements are used by non-innate users to access Magic. I had forgotten that they came from ore, and about Robo's weapons. Of course, hydor-electric power comes from nature but requires the use of artificial means like dams. And in the case of Elements, Grids.
Conmsidering the level of technology in 1020. A.D. Grids and Elements can't be that hard to make. Humans had learned how from the Dragonians so the making of these Dragonian devices may just a particularly difficult craftskill. Considering how little is said about them it is hard to tell.
It may be a "Gameplay" aspect but I always wondered how monsters were able to use Elements without Grids. True, they have Grids in battle but I really mean is the physical device that allows people to use Elements. Remember, Mel steals Kid's Grid when she is sick. Monsters uniformly use the same Elements in battle so having an actual Grid like the parties is unlikely. (And wierd. How could a Gloop wear a Grid?) The Grids may be made of a particular type of ore that focuses the energy of Elements. Tech skills in CC may be developed by characters through practice with their Grids since in the game more Grid Space and most Techs are learned with Star levels.
Monsters draw on Elements naturally because they are Innate Magic Users. Even party chracters can access the elements like V-Translanka mentioning Slash. To support this, most Techs seem to be derived from the character's innate abilities like Marle can use Aura to heal, a common ability in most Blue innates in CC.
Maybe the reason that party members have these abilities from the onset is that they are innate magic users or that all humans that are sufficiently evolved (through Lavos's interference) to utilize Magic. After all, few creatures from 65 Million B.C. in CT could use special attacks and relied on brute strength with the exception of Terrasaurs, the Volcano-type monsters and the Dark Tyrano.
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Your comparison of Slash to an Element doesn't work, because it is a Tech.
And, I don't remember Mel stealing Kid's "grid", I only remember her stealing the Elements from her grid and what-not...
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I'm pretty sure the text actually said "grid," but not having access to a script or that point in the game, I can't confirm this.
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Korcha: What is it? Ya lookin' for something?
Kid: ...Hmm, yeah. Well, the Elements I had on me grid are gone. Oi, Serge.
Didja remove the Elements from me Grid?
She nevers says her Grid is gone, just the elements from it.
Also it would be impossible for:
1. You can choose to not go after Mel and still Allocate new elements.
2. Even after the theft, Kid still has her grid.
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Dang, sorry about that. My copy of the game is too counties away from me. Good of you to get the quote, GreenGannnon
V_Translanka is right, too. I get the feeling the creators didn't stress too much about the definitions of Techs or Magic. I really need to start playing again.
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Exactly what is an Element, or for that matter, an Elemental Grid, supposed to look like. Are they even physical objects? Does Chrono Cross ever show an Element other than the Chrono Cross?
The question if whether Elemental Grids are artificial is intriguing. We have to remember that at every combat “move” other than a standard attack is an Element. Elements are so common that every wild creature in El’Nido uses them.
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V_Translanka is right, too. I get the feeling the creators didn't stress too much about the definitions of Techs or Magic. I really need to start playing again.
Actually, I stated that (Your comparison of Slash to an Element doesn't work, because it is a Tech.) because the game DOES clearly define Magic Techs aside from regular Techs, even those Techs that are magical in nature (like Slash for instance). Magic Techs get them helpful lil' stars by them, magical (it has been supposed that they are spiritual) Techs do not.
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The game is never clear on what exactly elements and grids are.
Using some artistic license, how about this: A grid is a magical rune engraved on the forearm of people capable of using magic (perhaps it is artificially inscribed, or maybe it is caused by exposure to elements or stars) that looks like a grid. Elements in their natural state appear as small gems with a color matching the color of their magic. When placed on a grid, they morph and appear as part of the rune. Stars are colorless elements with a few special properties:
1) When a character first comes into contact with a specific star, they become stronger and the grid may expand.
2) A character can use the power of a star to use a summon spell.
3) A star doesn't need to be in a grid for it to be used.
This is all completely conjecture, but it should work.
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I always assumed that they were absorbed into the body, or "un-"abosorbed if need be, and that when they get stronger they are able to handle higher amounts of energy.
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A possible problem with that is that it would make it difficult, if not impossible, for Mel to steal Kid's elements from her grid.
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Yeah, I'm working on that one.
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I also think of magic somewhat like the Force -- though only in the sense that it is a universal energy field, or perhaps a quantum domain underlying all physical processes, including the creation of our universe and its current laws of physics, that is connected to another, higher dimension.
The Force itself is rather complicated, seeing as several new theories have been introduced regarding its usage and purpose by the people who write the books. Most are simply good reads, and a few are bad, but several books and book series within SW expanded universe continuity are truly exceptional. I could go into a giant spiel about EU continuity, but suffice it to say that such a discussion of Chrono's magic as the Force could go into some very complicated territory.
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A possible problem with that is that it would make it difficult, if not impossible, for Mel to steal Kid's elements from her grid.
Not really...No one ever said 'only the user may allocate & unallocate their own Elements'. It's quite possible that Mel simply unallocated Kid's Elements the same way the player unallocates them in the menu screen.
Although interesting, the 'rune on their arm' doesn't quite work because there are characters whose arms we see, and low-and-behold, no such rune...
I say it's just like any kind of thing you can equip, hell, maybe they can just stuff 'em in their pockets to just have them available. No one knows.
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I wish they'dve just put in a guy that said just what elements were.
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I always thought of Grids as badges they'd pin on their clothes and summon them mentally. ("Hi, My Name is Serge" on the front.) Leebot's rune theory may me think that they may be attached to the skin somehow, and as the party gains Star levels they are able to add more slots to their grid since they are becoming used to larger amounts of Magic, like muscles become stronger after use. Just a thought.
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Its really the difference from building a fire and then cooking your food to...well having your personal caterer.
Lavos's "smart" energy only needed to be channeled (a complicated process but who here directs the functions of their car every time they drive. They turn the damn key and check their mirros and steer) and told what to do. In reality the Zealians had long since lost their mojo they were just yanking the sapient energy of Lavos dreaming with the Dreamstone formed and fashioned into a machine that would do so. Obviously many safeties, converters and yadda yadda. But the more they tapped Lavos's energy the more of Lavos's dream/mind or a perception of him spread. In exceptionals like Zeal, Schala, and Janus this made them deimgods or "marlins" or WHATEVER. But the thing is Zeal seems to reach a burnout point.
She's still human but her Lavossoul/madness is cutting off her ability to use magic. She's not a human manipulating smart energy she's an extension of Lavos with virtually no Lavos power. Perhaps the overtaking of her dreams by Lavos and these dreams of her conscious mind scatter her communing ability with the Mammon Machine/dreamstone. She is essentially a nightmare in human flesh so she can't use Dreamstone anymore. Hence her desperate need of Schala who gets the different exposure only she was born with more capacity to channel (inheriting some tolerance from her Mother and Lavos's instinctive energy evolving her) and used her power sparingly over time.
Very drug like. Too much at once, OD and you're dead. Too many over time and you get complications and the stuff stops working at giving you the effect you wanted but you need it to function basically. In the right amounts over time witn a little talent you might unlike certain features or developments induced from the use you couldn't get without it.
In normal Zealites it was like an addiction that enticed them to use the smart energy more and their own natural talent to manipulate the Fire element directly atrophied. This trait/flaw is- despite our real life understanding of hereditarism..nism, whatever- passed down through the populace. The capacity to use magic spreads but also the inability to use it. It needs to have smart energy or SOMETHING done to unlock it. Maybe because of the breeding wit hthe mystically luddite Earthbound made so a temporary scarring became a dominate trait (ex. someone who loses an arm in an accident falls in love with someone who was born without one and they produce one armed/limb defficient babies)
Like missing a set of muscles in a torn arm you can physical therapy to train other muscles to pick up the slack and in miraculous cases repair the loss. Spekkio is very advanced with magic. He both gave it to you but in such a way he doesn't overtake you (well maybe he does) but stims and heals the breach. A wizards training or initiation or martial art skills (which at the esoteric levels become godlike magic see kungfu comics, Dragon Ball Z, Exalted, Journey West etc.) can help you unlock some energy manipulations. Some have some much Zeal blood or a mutt's accumulation of natural magical leaning or are born in such high mystical areas they get magic.
Some beings just are so far into magic they are different. These are the Mystics. This exposure makes them not human. Whether thay are different species joining into one faction or races in the D&D-concept of fey sense (everyone can breed with each other for unique and interesting results but usually imp sticks to imp, naga-ettes to naga's or gnashers, etc) or actually different species that only have psychokinetic and magical abilities innate to them as a common thread...well they ain't human. Magus and Schala AREN'T unique in that they have special powers its that they are human (well in outward appearance) and have special power and talent that puts them above others in their era.
Whereras the Earthbound lack Dreamstone/sweetwater enhanced skills and hope and progress and alot (mostly due to the gross social and natural sitch) the Laruba and Ioka could develop down right frightening skills and powers (Spekkio even SAYS so) and even technology and techniques that eclipse magic. I think Spekkio really denied Ayla not because Ayla was too unadvanced as a person or biologically but to protect the timeline.
A rule of time might be certain things can't exist before their creation. Magic is one of them. Also if Ayla had magic if/when she goes back home she'll wreak the future just by having it. In the past Ayla's people scrapped by without magic as did the MANY generations after them until it was developed and discoverred or something to stay alive. If Ayla has magic she royally screws with history because that's a physical and constantly effecting thing she has that would just by existing be very harmful. She may also possibly pass this capacity onto her kids.
In Chrono Trigger your physical history changes some but your mental/spiritual one remains the same. So Marle is erased but recalls being erased, Crono knows Marle was erased- he saw it happen, Lucca remembers Marle/ectera. Unless you do something really stupid like kill your grandfather you won't change in a harmful way. Also note that it seems anytime the gang is changing history they're in their relative present- which is normal you always change the future in the present no harm-, outside the normal flow of time in the end of time-so you're on a quiet lull as opposed to the storm un fwapped by the winds-, or outside of time already which means the effect moving forward won't catch you unless its a complete impossiblty for you to exist as you are something serious. Crono knowing about Lavos isn't an impossibilty because data and minds seems to be just out of the correction's reach IF they are time travelling and are in a sapient's mind. Even then there is some fusging going on. Its a consequence of time/dimension travel in Chronoverse.
Also it will rarely cause harm. Time is an entity or the planet is the entity mucking with time it. Science can be used to understand it but recall as a living thing it will behave...irregularly from its base noted behaviours. So don't think in pure complete logic with CT travel all the time.
Think of it like convincing a pretty openminded and roll with the punches person. It probably knows "Ayla telling a tale of floating citys, men of metal from a world many many seasons after tomorrow will be no more harmful than if she dreamed the thing up and told it to others. Her experience changed her and those changes will flow through time but really its not going to cause that much trouble."
"Ayla having an impossible trait she couldn't have and that's harnessing and development effects the history of the planet/lavos/humanity/all will really FUBAR the sitch. Deny her magic at all costs."
Even more than if she takes the entire Chrono inventory with her history where Ayla has magic is screwwed. Items degrade and go back into the Earth. They get used up. At best technology will be sped up some but what with the whole hostile environment and tide of history things will change but not go bad. Not destroy humanity bad anyways. Instead of causing a disasterous paradox it will just cause a potent change."
BTW the disaster was Zeal sucking up WAY to much of Lavos's energy causing it to awaken grouchy And its mind kinda patchy and stuff. Its brain is VERY large and complicated as is its mind. It spotted threats and tossed them through gates to eliminate them nice and neat so as to avoid a fight. In the original sequence it blasted the Mammon machine or just figgured out how to stop the gravy train.
Zeal falls. When you interfere you confront and fight it and Queen Zeal doesn't end up dead. Lavos rewards her or she finally establishes her own connection and creates the Dlack Dream/Omen. Its also a defense mechanism. It acts as a funnel for Lavos to eye the world and protect itself. PErceiving events out of time or using logical deduction (Janus's presence as a fully grown adult probably tipped it off that it needed to make something more...aggressive in its establishment/defense and it needed to be something that worked by mainpulating time).
This is GREAT for Zeal she becomes an avatar for Lavos. Lavos gets a little out of it by having a blatant and quicker means to act on the Earth and combat nonlinear temporal threats as to his slow diffusion or wait until someone finds me method. For the most part the Dream just stands there. It probably elminates temporal threats before they start if only by standing around and creating an aura/superstition of grand fear about itself. Note it is after the Omen rises we find mother brain went crazy. That may have been a change to history.
Lavos couldn't gate the Chrono crew because the Mammon Machine was damaged by the red knife becoming the Masamune at that time and.. compared to the three Gurus, Zeal, and all your party is thought of as such threat that Lavos's equivalent of autodefense takes care of you.
The way you get to lavos is you attack him in a blind spot. A time he either discounts you (ocean palace) or is so commited to his current course of action he doesn't want to screw it up by ya know sending you into a past you could do something about it (Day of Lavos) or isn't fast enough (crashing the Epoch into Lavos) or weakened by your slaughtering of his hybrid dream/palace (if you go through the Black Omen) gating you away is too much for him. Also you're out of history and connected to the End of Time at this point which you've filled with gates to lead back to him. If he knows this he knows its just a temporary measure at best. Sure in game you never can but how much you willing to bet if Lavos puled his trick the other members of your team or the Wings of Time itself will rush to your aide and take you back to the battle. Mabe you just naturally end up at the end of time without having to double back through a portal. congrats Lavos they're back wit hthe epoch and going to ram you.
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Darmani:
I think Spekkio really denied Ayla not because Ayla was too unadvanced as a person or biologically but to protect the timeline.
I never thought of it that way. Cool.
As for Zeal, I always thought of her as the original Arbiter and very likely what Serge would have ended up like. Several fanfics I've read have suggested an Anakin Skywalker-like descent into darkness for CC's protagonist. I think Zeal was greedy but sane up until Lavos destroyed the Ocean Palace and the Space Bug chose her to safeguard against the Entity and the heroes, corrupting her like your drug analogy. A little off-topic, sorry.
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I think Spekkio really denied Ayla not because Ayla was too unadvanced as a person or biologically but to protect the timeline.
So why he gave magic to others? Didn`t they ruined true timeline?
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Probably because they could actually have magic in their time. It was extremely rare but it existed in 1000 AD. And in 600 it was very abundant and many thought Frog was a mystic anyway and they believed in magic saving swords and regularly (if primarily aggressively) interact with species that toss out magic.
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Maybe, but then in ayla timeline what could she ruined whith magic? she would die of age and her magic would perish, and there certainly wouldn`t left any legends that someone used magic back then so that theory imho isn`t acurate
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That's an enormous if.
Magic is a discpline and a science and a skill well its LIKE those things. Which is more damaging bringing a plane back with you to 1600 Italy or bringing an aeronautical engineer and pilot?
Chrono Trigger implies the latter over the former. Hello Chrono Cross does as well. If Ayla had magic she could give it to others or others would study or start using it before it was even invented/dawned. If magic comes from the planet this is bad. If magic is very key to the timeline things could get very bad.
I will retract Ayla having magic is more damaging than her having the whole inventory though. I can't prove it with my current motivation. But I still believe it. I mean what are cavemen going to do with a Gate Key or volkswagen sized computer anyway if they're freezing to death and want food.
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By your reasoning, why can't Robo use magic?
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Spekkio said he can't sense Robo's character so he would not give him magic. Though his laser weapons could do Shadow damage.
I am not twisting Spekkio's words much just taking them at a different point of view. Maybe Robots (considering objects and other machines seem to use magic or have magical effects. . .) can use magic in Chrono-verse its just Robo wasn't built or empowerred to do so.
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But again, I don't know if I've stated this here or not, but Ayla too has attacks that dish out Magic damage or are Magical in nature. Tail Spin is an example. One way to know this is that the attack harms Spekkio, who is immune to all atacks outside of the Magically inclined.
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Well, with tail spin, Ayla is using the wind as her attack. Wind seems to be associated with Lightning (or perhaps Shadow), in the game so she is using an element, which magic is made up of. If Crono's Lightning attack damages Spekkio, why wouldnt a normal lightning bolt?
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If the wind was causing damage, such as Crono's Slash technique, it would be Lightning elemental.
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Just a case to study:
What happens with some magics like Guile' s third tech and ConductaRod from Dark Dario that are Black elemental but show a thunder sfx?
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Just a case to study:
What happens with some magics like Guile' s third tech and ConductaRod from Dark Dario that are Black elemental but show a thunder sfx?
Well maybe its not thunder/lighting but just black elemental energy represented in that form. Crono's strongest attack is Luminaire, but its not really Lightning-like at all, its just the way the element is represented for that attack. Although the name ConductaRod is lightingish... weird
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With Luminaire though, you have to take into account the fact that it isn't Lighting, and in fact Crono's Magical innate isn't really even "Lightning", but Heaven or Heavenly.
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Well here is my theory, although iI probably haven't though it out NEARLY as much as you guys:
All beings have their own magical energy. Most, however, do not know how to harness it. Around the time that Zeal was founded,someone discovered how to harness the Sunstone's energy. This person taught others (the Enlightened ones), although some people (Earthbound ones) just didn't get it. At some point , Lavos's energy was discovered, and as it was more powerful than that of the sunstone, the sunstone was abandoned and people started using Lavos energy instead. Sometime during all this, a very small number of people (Let's say 3. Let's also say the Gurus) learned how to actually harness their own energy. But, when they tried to teach others, they wouldn't listen, because Lavos energy was more powerful anyways, and all of the Enlightened ones, save maybe one *cough* Janus *cough* could harness it. I believe that Schala was just really really good at harnessing energy from sources other than (and possibly also) herself. The reason most of the people said that Janus seemed to posses no magical ability was simply because he couldn't harness Lavos's energy. If I recall correctly, the one Zealian who said that Janus had more power than Schala actually said that one of the gurus said that Janus had more power than Schala. And don't you think the gurus would be able to tell? Who knows, they may have even taught him some magic. Or Ozzie could've taught him, or hell, he may have figured it out himself. Anyways, I'm pretty sure that the during the fall of Zeal, everyone who could actually use their own magic was gated. And I'm also pretty sure that the sun stone also became unreachable. And they sure as hell couldn't go back to using Lavos, so the Enlightened ones couldn't use magic anymore, simply because all of the methods that they knew how to use had become impossible. And there was probably a lot of prejudice against those who figured out how to use their own magic afterwards, to the point where nobody who COULD use their own magic told anyone. Also, magical "techs" require no knowledge of magic and are used instinctively.
Thus when Spekkio teaches your group members magic, he simply teaches them how to harness their energy in whatever form he decides is appropriate. Thias is suggested by him saying "Well, you're a frog, so lete's give you water." He probably decided on Chrono's, Lucca's, and Marle's in a similar fashion. He didn't teach Robo because Robo isn't techjnically a living being, and therefore can't use magic. He didn't teach Ayla for one of two possible reasons: A.Giving someone from that early magic could potentially screw up the timeline a LOT. or B.He didn't think Ayla would be capable of understanding.
I also believe that the Elements are a way of harnessing the energy of the planet itself, much like with the sun stone, only with a more specifiic purpose for each one.
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Thus when Spekkio teaches your group members magic, he simply teaches them how to harness their energy in whatever form he decides is appropriate. Thias is suggested by him saying "Well, you're a frog, so lete's give you water." He probably decided on Chrono's, Lucca's, and Marle's in a similar fashion. He didn't teach Robo because Robo isn't techjnically a living being, and therefore can't use magic. He didn't teach Ayla for one of two possible reasons: A.Giving someone from that early magic could potentially screw up the timeline a LOT. or B.He didn't think Ayla would be capable of understanding.
Well, Ayla was born before the Lavos-tainted humans existed. Lavos evolved mankind into magic harnessing beings via the frozen flame and his own manipulation. Like Spekkio says, Ayla existed before magic (not before the elements), so she cant use it, shes not evolved enough.
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There's a Kid talk about magic that could be interesting in this discussion.
It happens when you return to Guldove from the Zelbess and Kid is awake.
When talking about the astral amulet she talk about "power of ancient" "will power".
Could someone get this text for analysis?
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Sneff: This can't be...! Are you the rising star off the Magic Guild, Guile...!? What are you doing in a place like this!? Iff you're looking ffor work, I've got some great connections!
Guile: Hmph...I have no interest in simple hand tricks...I seek only enigma beyond human perception...
Sneff: Nuff! Every magic has a trick! That's what makes it interesting!
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Couldn't Magic in the game more Genetic ability rather than an entity? Or perhaps the only way you can Magic is genetically?
Consider the fact that neither Robo or Alya can weild it. Robo considering that he is a Robot and Alya because she was born "Before magic". It makes no sense that Alya can't.
But then there is the fact that "Why would we need Magic?". Evolving usally helps you adapt to your environment. But Magic is not needed in 12,000 B.C. .After all the Un-Enlightned ones were surviving without it.
Maybe the Frozen flame allowed people to use the energies of Lavos?(As in Magic is really just Lavos' power) Infact maybe the Frozen Flame gave the power to people?( Maybe it was genetically passed to people from Lavos) Could it have orginated from Lavos?
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No, It's the fact that her body and genes were not tainted by the Frozen Flame. That is why she can not use it. Even the reptites can't and could not. Azala being the most intellectually advanced was able to grasp tele kinetic powers. But later on, the Reptites conpensate their in ability to use magic for the elements that have always existed, whilst magic is more channaled will power.
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A thought: Magic is said to have came from Lavos. This strikes me as inaccurate. Magic seems to stem from exposure to the Dreamstone. I can imagine that at first it wouldn't be very magical with the primitive humans.
But continued exposure would do it. Consider that the Dreamstone's power was stilll usable in creation of the Masamune and this was before the advent of Lavos.
Just a thought.
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Dreamstone, as I understand it, was used both as currency (I can't remember the exact quote) and as a symbol of power (I believe it was Ayla who said that the strongest received it). Going solely by that, I would assume that the prehistoric humans, sensing some sort of natural, magical pull to the Dreamstone, valued it more highly than other materials.
It could be that the Dreamstone nurtured planetary magic, and, perhaps, is contained in a distant descended form inside of Chrono Cross's Elements (I know nothing of geology; please don't kill me), so that would probably be the source of, say, Azala's magic (if we assume it was magic, and not psychic/timewarp power). Heck, this type of stone may even be a sort of cousin to the Sun Stone, which is known to possess natural magic, and thus holds enough magical power of its own to create such artifacts as the Masamune and Schala's Pendant.
My guess is that the Frozen Flame, a splinter of the ridiculously powerful Lavos, serves as a sort of counterbalance to Dreamstone -- they seem to be made of similar magical power, but the Flame is more predisposed to the dark side of things, being basically a piece of Lavos Lint -- and that, given the proper stimulus, the Dreamstone could serve as a medium for conducting the elements. This would also probably have something to do with the fact that the Masamune weakens Magus, with his powers inextricably tied to Lavos, and therefore the Frozen Flame, as its magic would react, dispel, and reject the magic that Magus uses.
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Nope. Sorry.
1) Magic was always there befoer Lavos. It was just that no one was able to control it or harness it for use. The reptites had to depend on the Earths' energies to create their elements.
2) It wasn't the exposure to Dreamstone, it was the exposure to the Frozen Flame. The Flame has the power to make dreams come true. The flame not only advanced the humans minds, but it obviousally gave them the power to control magic, possibly that was a wish.
3) Schala's pendant is made out of Dreamstone, and so is the Masamune and Mammon Machine. Dreamstone is like a leech. It absorbs power and holds it, almost magnifying it. I'd rather think that because the prehistoric people had dreamstone for so long, that was why they were not so advanced if it was draining their power or whatever.
4) Red Stones do look good (Dreamstone) so hence a leader like person like Ayla would only be fitting for her to have it.
5) The Frozen Flame cannot be a counter balance since it has nothing to do with it. It'd doubtful if any other planets have dreamstone, so Lavos' Flame is just something that would have dropped anyway, or maybe wasn't supposed to. I think it wasn't supposed to. Lavos probably would not have minded if people didn't have magic, and advanced slower. That way, he'd have gotten more energy over a longer period of time.
6) The Reptites were always advanced from the start. They were supposed to win, but thanks to Lavos, did not. Azala would obviousally have more power since he is their leader.
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Doesn't it seem odd to anyone that Lavos never used any magic?
Aside from the general Ultimate Magic Attack which probably was not elemental in nature but just an attack based on the characters magic defense. Yet, I seem to recall the Lavos spawns using magic like Lightning 2 and such.
I think the entire goal of Lavos and the Frozen Flame was to bring out magic in humans. It probably was a genetic trait that allowed some humans to use it without drawing power from elsewhere and that took almost 65 millino years for Lavos to get. Marle, Crono, Frog, and Lucca may have had the trait and yet no idea how to access their power until Spekkio showed them.
Since Lavos could not use magic himself it makes sense that the Time devourer naturally could not and had to use the powered it had gained from consuming the Dragon Machine that could control nature.
Elements seem to be more of a X-men Storm kind of issue as in controling weather and such, where as the magic of the humans, the magic Lavos wanted was not really related to the elements used in CC.
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I think the entire goal of Lavos and the Frozen Flame was to bring out magic in humans. It probably was a genetic trait that allowed some humans to use it without drawing power from elsewhere and that took almost 65 millino years for Lavos to get. Marle, Crono, Frog, and Lucca may have had the trait and yet no idea how to access their power until Spekkio showed them.
Yes. I believe since there was obviously some decendents from the Zeal disaster, magic was probably passed down and was dormant in an individuals body. Spekkio has some sort of action to make the abilities in them re-surface, thus allowing them to use some magic capabilities. of course, over the duration of time since magic was never used, it was obviously not as superior to the magic capabilities of Zeal and its people.
If it hadn't been for Belthasar, there would be no FATE, and with no FATE, FATE would not have created the elements in which you can put on your grid to be used. Though I don't know the relation behind Summons and techs. Like Serge (Luminaire), or Lynx (Forever Zero), or even Harle with her Moon magic. Their techs do resemble some sort of magic capability. As for other past magic: we were told that the whole balance was kept in sync by Light, Fire, Water, and Shadow . . . EVERYTHING is based on balanced on these 4 magic atributes.
Lavos, combing DNA from everything and possibly with human dormant magic, with his own self, could create an ultimate Dreamless magic attack which did some considerable damage. If you have Robo in your party, this is kind of explained to some extent.
Elements are just created fabrications of magic like capabilities. Though I always wondered how they harnessed an Ultra Nova attack and also a Blackhole attack . . . my favorites :)
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Because Elements are also subcatagories of what the universe is made of.
From Lightning, your probably get yellow, white and green elements.
Shadow would have black.
Water would have blue.
Fire would have red.
Also, since elements are a part of the planets power, and were manufactured by the DRAGONIANS, whom FATE got the knowledge off of, the people in El Nido probably also learned that skill that way.
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Also, since elements are a part of the planets power, and were manufactured by the DRAGONIANS, whom FATE got the knowledge off of, the people in El Nido probably also learned that skill that way.
Shoot! I stand corrected. I totally forgot about the Dragonians. I though it said that FATE manufactured the elements in Chronopolis . . . ?
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Lavos used a LOT of magic, actually. >> Like, shitloads. Just not magic the player can cast.
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Also, since elements are a part of the planets power, and were manufactured by the DRAGONIANS, whom FATE got the knowledge off of, the people in El Nido probably also learned that skill that way.
Shoot! I stand corrected. I totally forgot about the Dragonians. I though it said that FATE manufactured the elements in Chronopolis . . . ?
Chrono Cross suggests that the Dragonians and Chronopoleans both had a hand in developing Elements.
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Also, since elements are a part of the planets power, and were manufactured by the DRAGONIANS, whom FATE got the knowledge off of, the people in El Nido probably also learned that skill that way.
Shoot! I stand corrected. I totally forgot about the Dragonians. I though it said that FATE manufactured the elements in Chronopolis . . . ?
It did, but like I said, in a copy attempt of the Dragonians. I would have thought that maybe FATE would try to make a dragon god of their own, if it knew how atleast.
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Lavos used a LOT of magic, actually. >> Like, shitloads. Just not magic the player can cast.
Exactly. Hidden Blow attack and some of the drill bit attacks also show many variations of magic.