Chrono Compendium

Enhasa Halls - Chrono Series Analysis => Magic, Elements, and Technology => Topic started by: Magus068 on June 19, 2006, 05:03:46 am

Title: The relationship between Magus' magic & Time/Space
Post by: Magus068 on June 19, 2006, 05:03:46 am
I'm just curious... Does Magus' magic is related to time/space magic? If so, does Magus has the ability to travel time using time/space magic?

Please enlighten me....
Title: Re: The relationship between Magus' magic & Time/Space
Post by: AuraTwilight on June 19, 2006, 03:22:01 pm
It's never really implied anywhere whatsoever that he has any time/space related powers, just traditional black arts like turning people into frogs and such. The only time he's ever caused any Time/Space related abilities to manifest was in the boss fight against him, and even then it's highly more likely that it was the fault of the failed Lavos summoning.
Title: Re: The relationship between Magus' magic & Time/Space
Post by: Zaperking on June 19, 2006, 10:05:25 pm
Don't forget that RD already has evidence to him being able to, and CC implies by Lucca that he still can and does.
Title: Re: The relationship between Magus' magic & Time/Space
Post by: Chrono'99 on June 20, 2006, 08:15:19 am
RD states that he made his way to the present era, but we don't know how he was able to. In CT Melchior was in the present era too but it was certainly not because of his personal magic power. As for Lucca, she knows that Magus is looking for Schala. She has no idea how "Schala" came to be reborn in the present, but since "Schala" is there, Lucca assumes that perhaps Magus could be around there too, whatever his mean of travel is.
Title: Re: The relationship between Magus' magic & Time/Space
Post by: Magus22 on June 20, 2006, 04:22:08 pm
The Zealians stated that Janus's magic were more powerful than anyone. It is possible that over time, "Magus" has evolved in his magic arts thus learning time travel through his individual powers.

Magus's powers far exceed the gurus. However, Belthasar is able to build equipment that can allow time travel. If you think about it, there are many ways that Magus could've found his way back to the present era.

The question still remains, how did he know that there was a "Schala" presence in the present era?
Title: Re: The relationship between Magus' magic & Time/Space
Post by: AuraTwilight on June 20, 2006, 05:11:40 pm
Lucca had a baby clone of Schala? liek dur?
Title: Re: The relationship between Magus' magic & Time/Space
Post by: Burning Zeppelin on June 21, 2006, 05:03:02 am
http://www.chronocompendium.com/Forums/index.php?topic=2763.0
Title: Re: The relationship between Magus' magic & Time/Space
Post by: Zaperking on June 21, 2006, 09:55:19 pm
The Zealians stated that Janus's magic were more powerful than anyone. It is possible that over time, "Magus" has evolved in his magic arts thus learning time travel through his individual powers.

Magus's powers far exceed the gurus. However, Belthasar is able to build equipment that can allow time travel. If you think about it, there are many ways that Magus could've found his way back to the present era.

The question still remains, how did he know that there was a "Schala" presence in the present era?

No one ever said that his power exceeded the Guru's.

I don't see Magus making a time egg, a time machine, or being omniscient.
Heck, the Masamune weakened him, and it was made by Melchior.
The exact quote was supposed to mean that Janus too had power, frightening amounts, but he kept it sealed and hidden because he saw what it had done to hsi mother, and saw how Schala hated using her own.
Title: Re: The relationship between Magus' magic & Time/Space
Post by: Magus22 on June 23, 2006, 12:27:07 am
No one ever said that his power exceeded the Guru's.

I don't see Magus making a time egg, a time machine, or being omniscient.
Heck, the Masamune weakened him, and it was made by Melchior.
The exact quote was supposed to mean that Janus too had power, frightening amounts, but he kept it sealed and hidden because he saw what it had done to hsi mother, and saw how Schala hated using her own.

Re-read my previous post. Magus may have been able to harness his true power over time. It's stated that he had more than anyone else, yes. But, question again, how did Magus know a "Schala" existed in the present era...

Do you think the Gurus had more power than the Queen?

I don't see the Gurus as all so powerful. What I can tell, Melchior got owned by Dalton. As for Melchiors dreamstone affecting Magus, I can easily counter that with the story of Samson and Delilah in the Bible.
Title: Re: The relationship between Magus' magic & Time/Space
Post by: Zaperking on June 23, 2006, 10:27:30 pm
No one ever said that his power exceeded the Guru's.

I don't see Magus making a time egg, a time machine, or being omniscient.
Heck, the Masamune weakened him, and it was made by Melchior.
The exact quote was supposed to mean that Janus too had power, frightening amounts, but he kept it sealed and hidden because he saw what it had done to hsi mother, and saw how Schala hated using her own.

Re-read my previous post. Magus may have been able to harness his true power over time. It's stated that he had more than anyone else, yes. But, question again, how did Magus know a "Schala" existed in the present era...

Do you think the Gurus had more power than the Queen?

I don't see the Gurus as all so powerful. What I can tell, Melchior got owned by Dalton. As for Melchiors dreamstone affecting Magus, I can easily counter that with the story of Samson and Delilah in the Bible.

No, you can't counter it. That's the bible, not CT.

Anyway, The Guru's had some powers greater than the Queen. She in general was like uber powerful. But no one was stronger than Melchior in harnessing life. No one was smarter than Belthasar, and no one had more of a grasp of time and how to control it than Gaspar.
And Melchior really didn't get pwned. Dalton is like a general, sure he has some fire magic or such, Melchior didn't get hurt or anything, he was walking around fine after, he just got knocked out, and remember that he is old.

And Schala, we've seen her barrier technique. She's got a lot up her sleve, but we don't see much.
Title: Re: The relationship between Magus' magic & Time/Space
Post by: Magus22 on June 24, 2006, 07:15:56 pm

No, you can't counter it. That's the bible, not CT.

So . . . ?

Anyway, The Guru's had some powers greater than the Queen. She in general was like uber powerful. But no one was stronger than Melchior in harnessing life. No one was smarter than Belthasar, and no one had more of a grasp of time and how to control it than Gaspar.
And Melchior really didn't get pwned. Dalton is like a general, sure he has some fire magic or such, Melchior didn't get hurt or anything, he was walking around fine after, he just got knocked out, and remember that he is old.

And Schala, we've seen her barrier technique. She's got a lot up her sleve, but we don't see much.

Blehh, I don't know about that. The gurus in my opinion were weak. How does Melchior "harness" life? Belthasar is definately a smart-arse in all and gaspar is master of time. Ok, I can see that. If they were masters of their titles, then perhaps they should've used that when confronted by the queen and at the Ocean Palace incident. Melchior DID get pwned, admit it :P

Perhaps Magus sensed that barrier in which you speak of, in which Schala created or some sort of force created by the clone?
Title: Re: The relationship between Magus' magic & Time/Space
Post by: Zaperking on June 24, 2006, 09:29:12 pm

No, you can't counter it. That's the bible, not CT.

So . . . ?

Anyway, The Guru's had some powers greater than the Queen. She in general was like uber powerful. But no one was stronger than Melchior in harnessing life. No one was smarter than Belthasar, and no one had more of a grasp of time and how to control it than Gaspar.
And Melchior really didn't get pwned. Dalton is like a general, sure he has some fire magic or such, Melchior didn't get hurt or anything, he was walking around fine after, he just got knocked out, and remember that he is old.

And Schala, we've seen her barrier technique. She's got a lot up her sleve, but we don't see much.

Blehh, I don't know about that. The gurus in my opinion were weak. How does Melchior "harness" life? Belthasar is definately a smart-arse in all and gaspar is master of time. Ok, I can see that. If they were masters of their titles, then perhaps they should've used that when confronted by the queen and at the Ocean Palace incident. Melchior DID get pwned, admit it :P

Perhaps Magus sensed that barrier in which you speak of, in which Schala created or some sort of force created by the clone?

1) What clone? I'm talking about the barrier she put on the time gate, and the barrier that looks almost the same that she is encased in on top of the Time Devourer.
2) The Guru's did stand up against Zeal. And for that reason, Melchior got sent to Mt. Woe, Gaspar and Belthasar went into hiding.
Title: Re: The relationship between Magus' magic & Time/Space
Post by: AuraTwilight on June 25, 2006, 12:36:27 pm
Quote
How does Melchior "harness" life?

Well, he can create life out of pure dreaming and visualization. Etc. Masa, Mune, and Doreen.
Title: Re: The relationship between Magus' magic & Time/Space
Post by: Zaperking on June 26, 2006, 12:27:34 am
Quote
How does Melchior "harness" life?

Well, he can create life out of pure dreaming and visualization. Etc. Masa, Mune, and Doreen.
Not to mention that little sapling.
Title: Re: The relationship between Magus' magic & Time/Space
Post by: AuraTwilight on June 26, 2006, 01:51:28 pm
I don't think he was really responsible for that -_-;
Title: Re: The relationship between Magus' magic & Time/Space
Post by: Zaperking on June 26, 2006, 11:49:53 pm
I don't think he was really responsible for that -_-;
I do, there are no trees on the planet, and if Melchior was working on the sapling, like putting magic in it and such that would make it flurish and spread quickly, that would explain it's power.
Title: Re: The relationship between Magus' magic & Time/Space
Post by: GreenGannon on June 27, 2006, 01:41:01 am
I really don't think magic was involved in the sapling. I don't think the Gurus did all that much magic anyway, I think they were more focused on the science of their respective fields. As in, Melchior could have genetically engineered the sapling to be what it was, maybe through magic, or cross-pollination, etc.
Title: Re: The relationship between Magus' magic & Time/Space
Post by: AuraTwilight on June 27, 2006, 01:10:46 pm
Or it's just some rare magic plant that just grows in Chronoworld.
Title: Re: The relationship between Magus' magic & Time/Space
Post by: Chrono'99 on June 27, 2006, 02:22:47 pm
In a world where mushrooms can turn you into a mushroom-man, Melchior's seed doesn't seem that special.
Title: Re: The relationship between Magus' magic & Time/Space
Post by: Magus22 on June 27, 2006, 02:51:09 pm
1) What clone? I'm talking about the barrier she put on the time gate, and the barrier that looks almost the same that she is encased in on top of Belthasar.

I didn't know what thing you were talking about for a second. The time gate thing . . . yes, now I know what you're talking about.
Title: Re: The relationship between Magus' magic & Time/Space
Post by: Chrono'99 on June 27, 2006, 06:11:37 pm
1) What clone? I'm talking about the barrier she put on the time gate, and the barrier that looks almost the same that she is encased in on top of Belthasar.

I didn't know what thing you were talking about for a second. The time gate thing . . . yes, now I know what you're talking about.
Schala... on top of Belthasar??
Title: Re: The relationship between Magus' magic & Time/Space
Post by: nightmare975 on June 27, 2006, 06:34:11 pm
I think he means Time Devourer.
Title: Re: The relationship between Magus' magic & Time/Space
Post by: Zaperking on June 27, 2006, 11:22:12 pm
Yup, typo ;) Sounds so weird tho  :shock:
Title: Re: The relationship between Magus' magic & Time/Space
Post by: AuraTwilight on June 28, 2006, 01:18:23 am
Quote
Schala... on top of Belthasar??

 :shock:

*deep breath*

AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

>_<
Title: Re: The relationship between Magus' magic & Time/Space
Post by: Magus068 on July 08, 2006, 04:31:18 pm
Magus DID have a T/S magic like blackhole and darkmatter right?
Title: Re: The relationship between Magus' magic & Time/Space
Post by: AuraTwilight on July 08, 2006, 07:41:39 pm
No, that was just Shadow element magic. Not literal dark matter and black holes. Otherwise the solar system would like implode.
Title: Re: The relationship between Magus' magic & Time/Space
Post by: Zaperking on July 08, 2006, 08:11:53 pm
No, that was just Shadow element magic. Not literal dark matter and black holes. Otherwise the solar system would like implode.

Except that CT's magic aren't elements. They're the 4 powers that create and control the universe. If it was just an element, i'd doubt lightning/heaven could revive someone.
Title: Re: The relationship between Magus' magic & Time/Space
Post by: Magus068 on July 09, 2006, 05:29:38 am
So I can safely assume that Magus has T/S magic then it's possible that either he learn to open time gates with magic by self-taught or some Zealians in the Dark Age taught him that magic. Remember that there are lots of magic scholars in Zeal even if they lose the ability to use magic they can still teach Magus by following certain procedures and Magus will do the rest by practicing. Don't forget that Magus is a genius in terms of magic.
Title: Re: The relationship between Magus' magic & Time/Space
Post by: Zaperking on July 09, 2006, 09:09:22 am
So I can safely assume that Magus has T/S magic then it's possible that either he learn to open time gates with magic by self-taught or some Zealians in the Dark Age taught him that magic. Remember that there are lots of magic scholars in Zeal even if they lose the ability to use magic they can still teach Magus by following certain procedures and Magus will do the rest by practicing. Don't forget that Magus is a genius in terms of magic.

No one taught him magic, because no one even knew he had any power. The only true Guru who could do time magic was Gaspar, and Belthasar used technology to his advantage to achieve the same effect.

Magus with his summoning technique demontrates his power for time and space control. Obviously, if he's summoning Lavos, hes creating a gate to pull him into where Magus is. But this failed and caused a gate. So either way, Magus achieved the time/space effect.
Title: Re: The relationship between Magus' magic & Time/Space
Post by: AuraTwilight on July 09, 2006, 03:04:12 pm
Quote
Except that CT's magic aren't elements. They're the 4 powers that create and control the universe. If it was just an element, i'd doubt lightning/heaven could revive someone.

I know that, If I meant CC Elements, it would've been capitalized. Use some common sense. I mean element as in "elemental"

Quote
So I can safely assume that Magus has T/S magic then it's possible that either he learn to open time gates with magic by self-taught or some Zealians in the Dark Age taught him that magic. Remember that there are lots of magic scholars in Zeal even if they lose the ability to use magic they can still teach Magus by following certain procedures and Magus will do the rest by practicing. Don't forget that Magus is a genius in terms of magic.

Except he's never demonstrated T/S magic, and his lack of it makes sense because of his initial amazement of timetraveling back home to Zeal.

Quote
Magus with his summoning technique demontrates his power for time and space control. Obviously, if he's summoning Lavos, hes creating a gate to pull him into where Magus is. But this failed and caused a gate. So either way, Magus achieved the time/space effect.

One could argue that that was just malfunctioning magic on Lavos' part due to an incomplete summoning.
Title: Re: The relationship between Magus' magic & Time/Space
Post by: Magus22 on July 09, 2006, 04:11:40 pm
Magus does have the power to create a miniature black hole/rupture in space. During battles, my thought was that you have to be at a certain distance to use it so your party stays clear of the event horizon while it consumes other enemies. I was surprised that its caption was "power of life and death". It should've been changed to "power of life or death" since it has the chance to annihilate enemies at random.

I was also surprised by the visual given when he performs a Dark Matter attack. It's just so mysterious. But yes, I do believe Magus evolved in his magic arts to travel through time.

If anyone has ever played FFX or FFX-2, you can use an item called Dark Matter that deals major damage. The visual is awesome yet truthfully bogus.
Title: Re: The relationship between Magus' magic & Time/Space
Post by: AuraTwilight on July 10, 2006, 03:28:28 pm
Quote
Magus does have the power to create a miniature black hole/rupture in space. During battles, my thought was that you have to be at a certain distance to use it so your party stays clear of the event horizon while it consumes other enemies. I was surprised that its caption was "power of life and death". It should've been changed to "power of life or death" since it has the chance to annihilate enemies at random.

Yea, but it's a magical blackhole that doesn't function at all like a real one. Instead being a mass of gravity that warps space time around it, it's a mass of black magic that inexplicably hurts the enemy.
Title: Re: The relationship between Magus' magic & Time/Space
Post by: Zaperking on July 10, 2006, 06:36:32 pm
Quote
Magus does have the power to create a miniature black hole/rupture in space. During battles, my thought was that you have to be at a certain distance to use it so your party stays clear of the event horizon while it consumes other enemies. I was surprised that its caption was "power of life and death". It should've been changed to "power of life or death" since it has the chance to annihilate enemies at random.

Yea, but it's a magical blackhole that doesn't function at all like a real one. Instead being a mass of gravity that warps space time around it, it's a mass of black magic that inexplicably hurts the enemy.

So lightning magic is just a beam of light that hurts the enemy. Fire magic is just heat, ice magic is just frozen moisture and water is just a mass of condensed water falling ontop of the enemy? Doing greats amount of damage.
I seriously doubt it's that easy, as the CC magic are elements of the universe, CT's magic are the 4 basics of everything.
Title: Re: The relationship between Magus' magic & Time/Space
Post by: AuraTwilight on July 11, 2006, 03:51:43 am
Yea, but that's different. For those other spells, real lightning and fire is being summoned. If Magus summoned a real blackhole, the entire solar system would be gone.
Title: Re: The relationship between Magus' magic & Time/Space
Post by: Magus068 on July 11, 2006, 09:19:36 am
Not necessarily, it depends on what size of the black hole. There is are miniature black holes that has a size of an atom but it doesn't pose a threat on a solar system. I learn that on my science class in high school.
Title: Re: The relationship between Magus' magic & Time/Space
Post by: Chrono'99 on July 11, 2006, 11:44:06 am
Yep, in fact, Time Eggs are stated to carry a miniature black hole in them. Reviving Crono didn't cause the solar system to explode.
Title: Re: The relationship between Magus' magic & Time/Space
Post by: AuraTwilight on July 11, 2006, 02:25:45 pm
One of the size Magus created would pretty much destroy the solar system, if you know shit about quantum physics. As for the blackholes in the Time Eggs, I'm sure they can come up with some lame excuse like...I dunno, Dreamstone being able to contain a black hole or something.
Title: Re: The relationship between Magus' magic & Time/Space
Post by: Chrono'99 on July 11, 2006, 02:30:54 pm
The same lame excuse applies to Magus' Black Hole and Lynx' Forever Zero, as well as UltraNova (this one should really hurt the planet).
Title: Re: The relationship between Magus' magic & Time/Space
Post by: Magus068 on July 12, 2006, 12:43:18 am
One of the size Magus created would pretty much destroy the solar system, if you know shit about quantum physics. As for the blackholes in the Time Eggs, I'm sure they can come up with some lame excuse like...I dunno, Dreamstone being able to contain a black hole or something.

What's makes Magus' black hole big is it's outline. The real black hole that he created is only a small dot so he could control it. If he makes a bigger black hole like what you say, he'll get suck into it along with his enemies
Title: Re: The relationship between Magus' magic & Time/Space
Post by: AuraTwilight on July 12, 2006, 02:48:17 pm
Which he rightfully should, since black holes don't discriminate. Not to mention a SMALLER black hole would be even more destructive since it'd cause more of a vacuum, so that makes things even worse. It's just not a black hole. A poor magical imitation, maybe, but not one that can be considered as Space/Time Magic.
Title: Re: The relationship between Magus' magic & Time/Space
Post by: Magus068 on July 13, 2006, 03:09:48 am
You're right about Magus' black hole is an imitation of the real thing. But since it consist gravity I would still consider it as T/S magic since gravity is relative to astrophysics.
Title: Re: The relationship between Magus' magic & Time/Space
Post by: Magus22 on July 13, 2006, 02:09:55 pm
You are also forgetting the event horizon.

Remember, once something crosses it, it ain't coming back...
Title: Re: The relationship between Magus' magic & Time/Space
Post by: ShoeMagus on July 15, 2006, 01:06:26 am
Well if Magus is generating a real black hole, than obviously he has to have some safeguard against it sucking him in (and whoever he's with). I mean really. Would Magus create a black hole if he couldn't control it? People dont' become powerful magic users by being stupid.

If he's powerful enough to create a black hole, then he should be powerful enough to control it.

I think its a real black hole. Not a simple imitation. Its small, controlled, and can suck the enemies into oblivion. It doesn't work all the time because Magus is forced to close it when he can't always fully control it.

Just my two cents.
Title: Re: The relationship between Magus' magic & Time/Space
Post by: AuraTwilight on July 15, 2006, 04:36:00 pm
But if he's controlling it, it's not a real black hole.

Hell, it can't be a real black hole by the virtue of not being an imploded star.

I find that Magus just makes a vortex or something and calls it Black Hole to make it sound more deadly.
Title: Re: The relationship between Magus' magic & Time/Space
Post by: Magus22 on July 16, 2006, 08:18:43 pm
Agreed.

It has to be an imitation of the second sort of "phase" of the creation of a blackhole. I never really found it that affective on enemies.

However, that Son of Suns boss battle to acquire the moon stone boded well with the usage of Magus's Blackhole.
Title: Re: The relationship between Magus' magic & Time/Space
Post by: CyberSarkany on July 17, 2006, 07:22:06 am
The chance of instantkill an enemy but do no damage when it misses is always risky, that's why I never used it (cept the son of suns).
Title: Re: The relationship between Magus' magic & Time/Space
Post by: Magus Complex on July 17, 2006, 07:19:26 pm
I think this discussion is heading in the wrong direction.  Magus' battle techs are only Magus' abilities that are practical for fighting, they don't encompass all that he's able to do, so personally I see no reason to pick them apart to the point of ringing eachother's collective necks over it.

Here are some of the facts:
Magus, if not all shadow magic users, does at the very least control space.

  +Instead of running when the party runs, Magus floats, most likely controlling gravity, or possibly magnatism, to do so.

  +Magus summons Lavos.  A summon is either the teleportation of a being from one location to the caster's current location on the same plain of exsistence, or the transfer of a being from one plain of exsistence to the caster's current plain of exsistence.  Any teleportation is a manipulation of space, displacing something form point A to point B.

  +Instead of running or even floating up to enemies that Magus wants to slash with his scythe, Magus does a short teleportation there.  As stated above, any type of teleportation is a manipulation of space.

So yes, Magus can manipulate space to a certain degree.  Time on the other hand is a trickier thing to figure out, since Magus has never directly used any such technique.  We do know a few things, though.

  +Magus' Lavos summoning gone wrong does propel everyone to different time eras, however...
  -This is probably due to Lavos' involvment, since we know chaotic, time-related things seem to happen whenever
Lavos is around.

  -Magus appears stuck in whatever time period the "Gateway Shuffle" throws him.  Yes the quotation in the last sentence was a reference to Cowboy Bebop.  It seems that Magus is stuck there, but there's always the possibility he always ends up going where he wants to be (at least while he's an adult).

  -Magus, disguised as The Prophet, forces his sister to seal a time gate.  He does not seal it himself.  This may be because he cannot, or it may be because Magus didn't want to blow his cover as The Prophet.

  +Magus' genealogy and the magical abilities of his family members is a strong indication, however, that Magus may be able to manipulate time.  His sister holds a necklace, either made by her or her ancestors, that is capable of manipulating the time gates.  Reasonably, Magus being of the same family means that he quite posibbly could have the same potential.

  +At the end of the game (the standard ending) if you have Magus in your party, Lucca assumes that Magus is going to go look for his sister (or, that's the implication anyway).  Lucca is extremely intelligent and would probably know whether Magus were capable of doing so or not.

So, like many things in CT, there is some flimsy evidence for both sides of the argument.

Edited for spelling and grammar.
Title: Re: The relationship between Magus' magic & Time/Space
Post by: AuraTwilight on July 18, 2006, 02:51:23 pm
That was all well and good except the geneology part. The pendant was made by the Sages of Zeal specifically for Schala, and it's powers come from Lavos.
Title: Re: The relationship between Magus' magic & Time/Space
Post by: Magus Complex on July 18, 2006, 06:05:49 pm
That was all well and good except the geneology part. The pendant was made by the Sages of Zeal specifically for Schala, and it's powers come from Lavos.

Oh yeah, I was thinking Schala's family made it for some reason, thanks for the correction!  Everybody take out a marker, scroll up and scratch out that paragraph in my post... or just ignore that part of my post.  Your choice.  I'm feeling too lazy to edit my post.
Title: Re: The relationship between Magus' magic & Time/Space
Post by: Magus22 on July 19, 2006, 12:08:15 am
+Instead of running or even floating up to enemies that Magus wants to slash with his scythe, Magus does a short teleportation there.  As stated above, any type of teleportation is a manipulation of space.

Only on criticals...
Title: Re: The relationship between Magus' magic & Time/Space
Post by: Magus Complex on July 19, 2006, 09:16:07 pm
+Instead of running or even floating up to enemies that Magus wants to slash with his scythe, Magus does a short teleportation there.  As stated above, any type of teleportation is a manipulation of space.

Only on criticals...

Criticals only or no, my point still stands.
Title: Re: The relationship between Magus' magic & Time/Space
Post by: Magus22 on July 19, 2006, 11:49:17 pm
Perhaps Magus emits negative energy that warps the space around him!

I am such a genius :lee:
Title: Re: The relationship between Magus' magic & Time/Space
Post by: Magus068 on July 20, 2006, 07:12:15 am
Or maybe that he moves so fast that you think that he's warping in front of the enemy. Yeah, I've this move before.
Title: Re: The relationship between Magus' magic & Time/Space
Post by: Magus Complex on July 21, 2006, 01:47:26 pm
Or maybe that he moves so fast that you think that he's warping in front of the enemy. Yeah, I've this move before.

In DBZ-esque style?  I don't think so, personally.  Arguably, there are faster characters then Magus.  Ayla comes to mind or maybe even Crono, and even they don't move so fast that they look as though they were teleporting when they get a critical hit.  They could have easily made a critical hit attack animation that involved Magus moving to his target normally like everyone else, but they chose to have him disappear and then reappear in front of the enemy instead.

"Yeah, I've this move before."  Was this a typo or something?  I'm sorry, I can't understand what you meant by it.
Title: Re: The relationship between Magus' magic & Time/Space
Post by: Magus068 on July 22, 2006, 04:29:32 am
It was a typo. I meant to say "I've seen this move before."
Title: Re: The relationship between Magus' magic & Time/Space
Post by: Magus22 on July 22, 2006, 03:43:56 pm
They could have easily made a critical hit attack animation that involved Magus moving to his target normally like everyone else, but they chose to have him disappear and then reappear in front of the enemy instead.

Magus really doesn't "disappear" on a critical, and reappear in front of the enemy. We can still "see" him streak across the field and slash the enemy twice with his scythe. I think Magus is the quickest melee critical weapon hitter of the whole party.
Title: Re: The relationship between Magus' magic & Time/Space
Post by: ShoeMagus on July 24, 2006, 01:53:08 am
I think the bigger point was missed in the scrutiny of how Magus attacks.

Magus summoning Lavos for one. He had to have done quite a bit of experimentation and research on Lavos leading up to the summoning. Exploration of the nature of time and space. Figuring out just where Lavos existed. I mean Magus knew that Lavos was buried deep in the Earth. But he also witnessed what happened at Zeal which would lead to questions about the Pocket Dimension. To get to Lavos, he'd have to penetrate into the Pocket Dimension or at least have enough knowledge to draw the big tick out of it. Either way he'd have to be able to open up his own Gate.

I think we can rule out Magus travelling through time before you meet him. Else he could have gathered resources from throughout time (things like the Sunstone which were considered antithetical to Lavos consdiering Zeal had them locked away). I mean really. If you had an  all consuming hatred for something, would you resign yourself to going in with a chance that your enemy might conquer? I mean he witnessed Lavos's power firsthand.

Besides he could've always gone back to 65 Million BC to take on Lavos then. Possibly changing the timestream, yes, but he was consumed with his hatred. And his desire to be with Schala again. Without Lavos thriving for millions of years, Zeal would have been different.




Title: Re: The relationship between Magus' magic & Time/Space
Post by: ZeaLitY on August 09, 2006, 04:20:31 pm
Inquiry: Can Magus control time? If so, is that how Magil returned to the present in Radical Dreamers?

Case for:

*Instead of running when the party runs, Magus floats, most likely controlling gravity or possibly magnatism to do so.
*Magus summons Lavos. A summon is either the teleportation of a being from one location to the caster's current location on the same plane of existence. Any teleportation is a manipulation of space, displacing something form point A to point B.
*Instead of running or even floating up to enemies that Magus wants to slash with his scythe, Magus does a short teleportation there. As stated above, any type of teleportation is a manipulation of space.

Neutral

*Magus' Lavos summoning gone wrong does propel everyone to different time eras -- however...This is probably due to Lavos's involvment.

Case Against

*Magus appears stuck in 12000 B.C. Of course, he did want to stay there to get a shot at Lavos.
*Magus, disguised as The Prophet, forces his sister to seal a time gate. He does not seal it himself. This may be because he cannot, or maybe he didn't want to blow his cover as The Prophet.
*The Gurus manipulated time chiefly through intellectual application of magic. Magus is not a scholar, and would probably travel through time with their devices.
Title: Re: The relationship between Magus' magic & Time/Space
Post by: Magus068 on August 10, 2006, 05:52:40 am
This occur to me... If Schala can seal a time gate, would it be possible that the Zeal royal family can manipulate T/S? Both Magus & Schala can manipulate T/S in a way like teleportation & time gate sealing. And another thing, sealing a time gate requires to seal both ends of the time gate & both ends of the time gate is a different era.
Title: Re: The relationship between Magus' magic & Time/Space
Post by: Chrono'99 on August 10, 2006, 06:59:27 am
I think the case for Magus is not so strong. Ozzie, Flea and some Mystics float instead or running, and even Azala can teleport huge chunks of rocks and move them in the air at distance.
Title: Re: The relationship between Magus' magic & Time/Space
Post by: nightmare975 on August 10, 2006, 04:20:36 pm
and even Azala can teleport huge chunks of rocks and move them in the air at distance.

I think that's more of an element, not magic.
Title: Re: The relationship between Magus' magic & Time/Space
Post by: Chrono'99 on August 10, 2006, 04:45:50 pm
Nah, Elements were developed in the far future of a different dimension, using the power of the Dragon God.
Title: Re: The relationship between Magus' magic & Time/Space
Post by: Magus22 on August 11, 2006, 08:33:37 pm
Why not float instead of run... right?

It's probably the manipulation of the space time around them, like Zeality stated.  Their magic field may in fact allow them to control the gravity around them. That's what I don't understand about the character Guile in CC. He is the only character that's floats above the ground...

About the time gate being sealed by Schala, he made her do this most likely to conceal his power. If Magus did choose to use his power, which he DID refrain from using during his stay in Zeal, his cover would've been blown. Schala and/or the Queen or any other Zealian may have felt the same presence of the magic aura of Magus. Magus's cat can put two and two together and can sense the familiar presence, depicted in "What the Prophet Seeks . . ." and after the Zeal disaster when history repeated itself.
Title: Re: The relationship between Magus' magic & Time/Space
Post by: nightmare975 on August 11, 2006, 10:25:57 pm
Nah, Elements were developed in the far future of a different dimension, using the power of the Dragon God.

Still, like you said, the reptiles could have had a small understanding of the elements around them. It's just like how Ayla has some elemental attacks.
Title: Re: The relationship between Magus' magic & Time/Space
Post by: Chrono'99 on August 12, 2006, 04:00:24 am
That's what I don't understand about the character Guile in CC. He is the only character that's floats above the ground..
Razzly easily floats above the ground too when she runs.

What I mean is that floating and teleporting rocks seem to be a really easy thing to do in the series, so it doesn't really prove anything about being able to create time Gates (something which should be much, much more difficult). But then again there's the Red Gate case... maybe Magil came to the present thanks to a Red Gate...
Title: Re: The relationship between Magus' magic & Time/Space
Post by: Magus068 on August 12, 2006, 09:03:17 am
The explaination that Magus & Razzly could fly is because they use wind magic. If a strong wind swirls around an object it will surely flies. This explaination is common place in fantasy stories.
Title: Re: The relationship between Magus' magic & Time/Space
Post by: evirus on September 07, 2006, 02:04:26 pm
It's never really implied anywhere whatsoever that he has any time/space related powers, just traditional black arts like turning people into frogs and such. The only time he's ever caused any Time/Space related abilities to manifest was in the boss fight against him, and even then it's highly more likely that it was the fault of the failed Lavos summoning.

the most implied part i would have to say is his black hole spell. a wormhole is essentialy a bend in space/time, a black hole is a much more extreme bend, so either he didn't even think of minipulating his powers in such a way during CT(gravity equaling bent space is only a fairly recent observation compared to the time line of CT) or he didn't see a use for it sense a black hole seems more agressive then a worm hole
Title: Re: The relationship between Magus' magic & Time/Space
Post by: AuraTwilight on September 07, 2006, 06:27:25 pm
I've already said a billion times how Magus is not making a quantum black hole. If he was, he'd destroy the entire earth. It's simply a magical wormhole with a menacing name.
Title: Re: The relationship between Magus' magic & Time/Space
Post by: Chrono'99 on September 07, 2006, 06:36:09 pm
That's hardly a solid evidence. In the Chronoverse, a quantum black hole doesn't necessarily destroy the entiry earth, it can even be held and transported in one's pocket (with Time Eggs for instance).
Title: Re: The relationship between Magus' magic & Time/Space
Post by: Magus22 on September 07, 2006, 06:40:16 pm
the most implied part i would have to say is his black hole spell. a wormhole is essentialy a bend in space/time, a black hole is a much more extreme bend, so either he didn't even think of minipulating his powers in such a way during CT(gravity equaling bent space is only a fairly recent observation compared to the time line of CT) or he didn't see a use for it sense a black hole seems more agressive then a worm hole

It proves that Magus's powers are incredible right? A blackhole isn't just your average magic spell. His ability either misses or annihilates the enemy. Magus can't always cast the blackhole attack each battle, he has to be a certain range towards and from the enemy, or he would obliterate himself. The ability to manipulate the fabric of spacetime is a serious issue. Magus has this power, but I believe he creates a manipulation of a blackhole . . . or he might generate a smaller version of the real thing. It would take much focus and control but the effect of opening an actual blackhole would be like turning off the oxygen in the given area where Chrono and co. is currently fighting in, resulting in a double KO (Street Fighter) of Chrono, party, and the enemies. Or . . . I am wrong and he can infact create a whole in space time, since the Earth and all its attributes and components are taking up space right now, and can send his enemies into nothingness.

What are you trying to get at with this wormhole idea though?

I've already said a billion times how Magus is not making a quantum black hole. If he was, he'd destroy the entire earth. It's simply a magical wormhole with a menacing name.

Quantum.

Let's just say his magic attack is an apparition of the real thing with similar attributes. I don't think a wormhole is the correct use of word for his magic attack.
Title: Re: The relationship between Magus' magic & Time/Space
Post by: evirus on September 09, 2006, 10:27:21 am
the most implied part i would have to say is his black hole spell. a wormhole is essentialy a bend in space/time, a black hole is a much more extreme bend, so either he didn't even think of minipulating his powers in such a way during CT(gravity equaling bent space is only a fairly recent observation compared to the time line of CT) or he didn't see a use for it sense a black hole seems more agressive then a worm hole

It proves that Magus's powers are incredible right? A blackhole isn't just your average magic spell. His ability either misses or annihilates the enemy. Magus can't always cast the blackhole attack each battle, he has to be a certain range towards and from the enemy, or he would obliterate himself. The ability to manipulate the fabric of spacetime is a serious issue. Magus has this power, but I believe he creates a manipulation of a blackhole . . . or he might generate a smaller version of the real thing. It would take much focus and control but the effect of opening an actual blackhole would be like turning off the oxygen in the given area where Chrono and co. is currently fighting in, resulting in a double KO (Street Fighter) of Chrono, party, and the enemies. Or . . . I am wrong and he can infact create a whole in space time, since the Earth and all its attributes and components are taking up space right now, and can send his enemies into nothingness.

What are you trying to get at with this wormhole idea though?

I've already said a billion times how Magus is not making a quantum black hole. If he was, he'd destroy the entire earth. It's simply a magical wormhole with a menacing name.

Quantum.

Let's just say his magic attack is an apparition of the real thing with similar attributes. I don't think a wormhole is the correct use of word for his magic attack.

correct me if i'm wrong but a worm hole can span time as well as space. there for a gate would somewhat act or even be a worm hole(in some sort of dormant state mind you, which the gate key either activates or stretches it to make it a practical form of time travel)

sense gravity is simply a distortion in space/time, and black holes are the most extreme example of these distortions i think the creation of wormholes would require the same gravity minipulating abilities as that of creating a black hole weather it requires more minipulation or less minipulation im unsure.

in regards to the distructive power of a black hole: from what we see in CT (from magus's spell) it would appear that magus "opens" a black hole and sees if it is capable of consuming an enemy, then closes it to keep its distructive power in check, thats probably what the failure actualy is, simply magus stopping the small black hole from becomming so powerful to either consume himself or "unwanted targets"
Title: Re: The relationship between Magus' magic & Time/Space
Post by: Spekkio on September 14, 2006, 06:19:09 pm
and even Azala can teleport huge chunks of rocks and move them in the air at distance.

I think that's more of an element, not magic.

Except that it says "Teleportation/Teleports a rock!"

Also, they just appear out of nowhere above your character's head.
Title: Re: The relationship between Magus' magic & Time/Space
Post by: AuraTwilight on September 14, 2006, 06:27:01 pm
So? It doesn't really change anything.
Title: Re: The relationship between Magus' magic & Time/Space
Post by: evirus on September 16, 2006, 10:54:13 am
So? It doesn't really change anything.

Change? no Exaplain? yes
Title: Re: The relationship between Magus' magic & Time/Space
Post by: Mavix on September 22, 2006, 04:55:43 pm
it does change and explain!
Title: Re: The relationship between Magus' magic & Time/Space
Post by: AuraTwilight on September 22, 2006, 06:06:50 pm
No it doesn't.
Title: Re: The relationship between Magus' magic & Time/Space
Post by: Mavix on September 25, 2006, 12:06:42 pm
yes it does :lol:
Title: Re: The relationship between Magus' magic & Time/Space
Post by: AuraTwilight on September 25, 2006, 07:22:57 pm
How so? Explain yourself or you're basically just trolling.
Title: Re: The relationship between Magus' magic & Time/Space
Post by: Legend of the Past on September 26, 2006, 09:46:04 am
I've already said a billion times how Magus is not making a quantum black hole. If he was, he'd destroy the entire earth. It's simply a magical wormhole with a menacing name.

The Time Egg uses, according to the good Dr.Ashtear, miniature Black Holes. No reason why Magus shouldn't have at least some small measure of control of this Zealian magical power, given he's stronger than Q.Zeal and Schala (At the time, that is). 
Title: Re: The relationship between Magus' magic & Time/Space
Post by: AuraTwilight on September 26, 2006, 06:40:03 pm
For all we know, it could be the dreamstone that keeps those minature black holes from like....fucking everything up.
Title: Re: The relationship between Magus' magic & Time/Space
Post by: Zaperking on September 26, 2006, 07:55:44 pm
Puer speculation, and you say that my posts are coming out of nowhere.

And if you're going to start this whole "magical worm hole" shit, then I better restart the whole Lucca vs Lynx incident. It took me forever to get my point across, and you still wouldn't listen and continued to flame. Going on about how Lucca couldn't use her fire magic in her house to fight Lynx because it's start a fire. If it's "magical" then it's controlled =.= Hence, The Great Lucca lost to Lynx on equal terms. Thats off topic but had to be raised.
Title: Re: The relationship between Magus' magic & Time/Space
Post by: AuraTwilight on September 27, 2006, 07:08:21 pm
Zaper, did you miss the "For all we know" part of my post? Apparently you did. Since in normal physics a minature black hole would destroy our entire solar system, I'm assuming the Dreamstone or some kind of magic is keeping it under control.
Title: Re: The relationship between Magus' magic & Time/Space
Post by: ChibiBob on September 27, 2006, 11:08:58 pm
Zaper, did you miss the "For all we know" part of my post? Apparently you did. Since in normal physics a minature black hole would destroy our entire solar system, I'm assuming the Dreamstone or some kind of magic is keeping it under control.

But you have to consider -- since when did normal physics apply to the Chrono series?
Title: Re: The relationship between Magus' magic & Time/Space
Post by: Magus068 on September 29, 2006, 09:53:32 am
Zaper, did you miss the "For all we know" part of my post? Apparently you did. Since in normal physics a minature black hole would destroy our entire solar system, I'm assuming the Dreamstone or some kind of magic is keeping it under control.

Every dimension has it own rules in terms of physics.  It's possible to make a mini blackhole without destroying the solar system in the process.
Title: Re: The relationship between Magus' magic & Time/Space
Post by: Magus22 on September 29, 2006, 04:10:26 pm
Zaper, did you miss the "For all we know" part of my post? Apparently you did. Since in normal physics a minature black hole would destroy our entire solar system, I'm assuming the Dreamstone or some kind of magic is keeping it under control.

Every dimension has it own rules in terms of physics.  It's possible to make a mini blackhole without destroying the solar system in the process.

heh . . . for all we know there could be a miniature blackhole, a centimeter in diameter making the moon expose an extra 9% of the tidally locked side we already see, which then affects the tides on earth and weather conditions.

A very tiny blackhole would not pose a threat to the solar system. However, it depends on the range of gravitational attraction that could span millions of light years. Like our sun, it has a couple AU's of force to pull objects as far into the Kuiper Belt to orbit the sun in our solar system.
Title: Re: The relationship between Magus' magic & Time/Space
Post by: Zaperking on September 30, 2006, 04:31:50 am
All we have to do is look at the elements used in CC to find out that physics is different in the Chrono Series. Heck, even in the FF series. Aslong as a game has magic, physics will be different. Spekkio said something relatiev that Shadow, Fire, Lightning and Water magic were the primary bases of the universe, and kept everything in order.

In CC, we see ultranova's and black holes. They're all contained. Heck, even Lavos' portal in Magus' Castle caused the whole castle to dissapear, even thought it was supposedly a gate. But whatever happened, it wasn't just Crono and co and Magus that got displaced. To suck in a whole castle... Now that sounds more like a job of a black hole to me. But it's not, or is it?
Title: Re: The relationship between Magus' magic & Time/Space
Post by: Magus22 on October 01, 2006, 03:23:16 pm
Lavos's gates and blackholes behave differently.

A blackhole would have sucked far more than just a castle into oblivion. I wonder, if Lavos threw Crono and co back in time, where did Magus's castle go?
Title: Re: The relationship between Magus' magic & Time/Space
Post by: Magus068 on October 07, 2006, 08:01:54 am
Lavos's gates and blackholes behave differently.

A blackhole would have sucked far more than just a castle into oblivion. I wonder, if Lavos threw Crono and co back in time, where did Magus's castle go?

Perhaps in a different time & different place.  It is yet to be confirm.
Title: Re: The relationship between Magus' magic & Time/Space
Post by: evirus on October 14, 2006, 02:46:12 am
Lavos's gates and blackholes behave differently.

A blackhole would have sucked far more than just a castle into oblivion. I wonder, if Lavos threw Crono and co back in time, where did Magus's castle go?

yes but your missing the general point that black holes and worm holes both minipulate gravity(which is the curvature of space/time)

also theres nothing to say that the "black holes" we see throughout the series are true black holes or reactions that if left uncontrolled would cascade into the triditional black hole we see in reality
Title: Re: The relationship between Magus' magic & Time/Space
Post by: Bauglir on October 22, 2006, 10:39:51 pm
I was under the impression that Magus' Castle didn't all end up in one time period, and rather was ripped apart and scattered. If I had to give a reason for why Magus and the party didn't die horrible, malfunctioning-transporter-esque deaths, I'd venture a guess that the portal got less and less stable as it expanded. Cause I'd imagine that something like a whole castle popping out of thin air would cause quite a stir, and the only way we wouldn't hear about it is if it popped out after 2300 AD (even if it was in between the Prehistoric and the Dark Ages, there'd have been a legend, and besides, Gaspar probably would've mentioned it if it popped out in one piece anywhere or, and let me prefix this by saying, "yay for mangling words to account for time travel", anywhen).
Title: Re: The relationship between Magus' magic & Time/Space
Post by: Chrono'99 on October 24, 2006, 10:47:01 am
A blackhole would have sucked far more than just a castle into oblivion. I wonder, if Lavos threw Crono and co back in time, where did Magus's castle go?

The question is not where did Magus's castle go, but rather, did Magus's castle go anywhere? The disappearance of the castle could be explained by other, less complicated events. The human army for instance could be the reason why it "disappeared". Learning that Magus vanished, Guardia could have litterally swept through the Mystic island, destroying the castle and forcing the confused and leaderless Mystics to retreat.

I think this makes sense, because Ozzie, Slash and Flea are precisely said by NPCs to have "ran off" from Magus's castle to Ozzie's fort. You can run off from an attack led by human soldiers, but can you really run off from a giant time portal's grasp, which would be growing and sucking everything in its passage?
Title: Re: The relationship between Magus' magic & Time/Space
Post by: DBoruta on October 24, 2006, 05:40:25 pm
Quote from: Chrono'99
The question is not where did Magus's castle go, but rather, did Magus's castle go anywhere? The disappearance of the castle could be explained by other, less complicated events.
Magus' castle didn't go anywhere.  We know this because of what you already said about Ozzie, Slash, and Flea running off to Ozzie's fort.  Other evidence that clearly shows Magus' castle was still present in 600 A.D. was that after the enormous gate (which I agree with the proposal that it was actually created by Lavos, although it was Magus' summoning spell that actually created the linkage from Lavos' pocket dimension to Magus' chambers) closed, Magus' chambers were still present and presumably somewhat intact.  A temporal distortion of that magnitude could have caused the castle to become structurally unsound.  We also are given hints that the castle was still present by this quote:

Quote
[Knight]
   Since you didn't come out of
   Magus's castle, I simply thought...

This implies that there was still a castle there, although it may or may not have been in one piece. 

Also, we are given a hint that the human army "easily" defeated the mystic army after Magus' disappearance with these quotes:
Quote
[Knight Captain]
   We destroyed Magus's troops and
   we owe it all to Crono.

[Knight]
   Magus's troops are pretty tame
   when he's not leading them!


Anyway, it's very possible that the humans themselves destroyed Magus' castle, although I would be more inclined to think that it became structurally unsound after the huge gate in Magus' chambers closed, and the castle eventually crumbled to the ground. 

 
Title: Re: The relationship between Magus' magic & Time/Space
Post by: ShoeMagus on November 12, 2006, 09:42:02 pm
I figured the backlash of a pissed off Lavos whose half asleep (much like my family members) destroyed Magus's Castle.

So....to recap:

*Chronoverse composed of Four Elements ruling all physics: Shadow, Lightning, Fire, and Water

*Magus had a magical attack called BlackHole. This could very well be the equivalent in the Chronoverse to a blackhole in real life. Since he is a Shadow user, it is reasonable to assume that the BlackHole is composed of Shadow and that Magus controlled the force of it.

*He probably figured out some dimensional/time manipulation in his attempt to get Lavos. Evidence? Magus makes some connection with Lavos during the ritual you break in on. Also, after 600 A.D. Magus vanishes in the normal timeline (meaning before Crono goes back in time and starts playing around). What happens? He probably suceeds in making contact with Lavos and gets the royal crap kicked out of him. No doubt he's eaten.

Speculation on my part:

Magus was probably very much the scholar while he was mastering dark magic with the Mystics. Everybody talks about Lucca and Belthasar as the scholars on time travel, but what about Magus? What did he get up to while locked away in his castle? Perhaps he deduced SOMEWAY of time travel. Or at least had a theory or two. Did he put them into action? Again not likely. He was confident enough in his ability to take Lavos on and didn't seek artifacts like the Sun Stone as I said earlier. But maybe after experiencing Time Travel with the team, he refined his ideas. Especially coming into contact with Lucca and Belthasar again. He does something cause he appears again in the present in RD (yes other dimension, but still relevant) and there is always that mysterious shadow in Viper Manor.

He managed to get around somehow, no doubt buoyed by his knowledge of historical events.
Title: Re: The relationship between Magus' magic & Time/Space
Post by: Magus_Brokenhart on May 23, 2007, 09:35:44 pm
Well, the Black Hole Magus creates does absorb things in, so where do they go to? Black Holes can, in theory, be made in other ways but collapsed stars. All you have to do is create enough mass in  a small area to create a lot of gravity no? Magic does not have to make sense. The spell could probably replicate a black hole, while safeguarding with limitations as to protect the planet.
Title: Re: The relationship between Magus' magic & Time/Space
Post by: alpha on August 22, 2007, 09:14:12 pm
Quote
*Chronoverse composed of Four Elements ruling all physics: Shadow, Lightning, Fire, and Water

expanded chrono verse makes that

light shadow air earth((for some reason tornado falls under this)) water and fire
Title: Re: The relationship between Magus' magic & Time/Space
Post by: V_Translanka on August 22, 2007, 09:57:34 pm
Expanded what?

You're incorperating the CC Elements into actual Magic?
Title: Re: The relationship between Magus' magic & Time/Space
Post by: alpha on August 28, 2007, 12:43:03 pm
not really.. the cc game has 6 innate Colors((elements)) now that cant just be because of the draconic elements.. anywya the point made was that not the enitre chrono verse runs on the same setup. but as was also said in this thread magic does not have to make sense.
Title: Re: The relationship between Magus' magic & Time/Space
Post by: Katie Skyye on July 23, 2008, 04:21:50 pm
Hmmm...despite the fact that this topic seems fossilized, I'd still like to ask a question, though if it doesn't get answered due to lack of interest (or because it was already answered elsewhere), I won't feel offended:

Why are we trying to prove whether it's possible for Magus to summon a real-world black hole? The original question was whether Magus had control (however minor) of time or space...isn't it possible that the 'Black Hole' is not a gravity well, but a portal into a void? Perhaps the Darkness Beyond Time (though this isn't likely...considering that there weren't a bunch of random enemies ALSO fused with the Time Devourer))? Magus may or may not know where his 'Black Hole' ends up (or maybe he does, whatever), but has anyone even considered that he might not be summoning a real black hole, but a dark portal of some sort? It seems reasonable that it would be easier to open a portal to nowhere and toss something in than, for example, to open a portal to a specific location/dimension (Lavos' pocket dimension) and to pull out a specific being (Lavos), especially when said being is HUGE...thus explaining why Magus would be able to cast Black Hole in a normal battle, instead of having to prepare a summon.

I'm sure there's lots of holes in that theory...so feel free to point them out. I'd like to know the answer to this question as much as anyone else...
Title: Re: The relationship between Magus' magic & Time/Space
Post by: Xenterex on November 13, 2008, 08:04:59 am
Quote
Hmmm...despite the fact that this topic seems fossilized, I'd still like to ask a question, though if it doesn't get answered due to lack of interest (or because it was already answered elsewhere), I won't feel offended:


One must know the proper rituals of necromancy if one is to revive the dead and extract wanted information.

I think that Magus does have, and later refines, a magical control over time and space.  To begin, its been mentioned in the game that the core elements as used by innate magic users are the forces that govern the universe.  A universe is all matter and space as a whole, so manipulation of the universe, or utilizing these elemental forces, manipulates space.  By the definition alone, we have 'yes' to 50% of the posed question.  Now, in years past, there was brought up a mention of azala utilizing power in a comparable way.  However, in azala's case, the tip off is found in his ability psychokinesis, the ability to move objects by mental power alone.  The repites were acknowledged as being smarter than the apes, and a common element in stories is a refined intellect leads to 'mind over matter' effects, or psionics.  His "teleportation" tech is probably the same psionic as the one he uses to move your characters about, but it given a different name to prevent confusion.  Psychic powers probably aren't on the same level of space/time manipulation here.

On a side note, azala's display of psionic power leads me to think the draconics wouldn't even develop Elements that apprear in CC in the first place, so any involvement about how that system would explain time/space manipulation, I dismiss. 

Now, as far as time manipulation goes, I get the first tip off from janus' famous reference to the 'black wind.'  From talking to other people from Zeal, it is revealed that those who can use magic have an 'aura' about them.  Aura's then have something that can be read.  Janus' insight, and Schala's confirmation, may have been based on what they could interpret from this aura.  He might not be specific about who was going to die for a number of reasons.

1) Because several people were going to die from Lavos' attack.
2) Because the constant presence of magic makes it difficult for him to completely read, but due to his stronger abilities, he's at least able to narrow it down to Chrono's group.  Schala, who is either not as capable in this regard or at least preoccupied with concerns for her mother, doesn't notice this when she meets with crono and company.
3) he's just being an ominous brat.  But even then, his mention still merits noting, because schala still senses something too.

In the case that Janus is only able to single out Crono as the tragic element here of the 'black wind' what makes him stand out then?  Because Crono is important to time.  Gasper mentions that the Chrono Trigger only works for those who are important to time, and since it works for Crono, he is then important to time.  When Magus mentions the black wind when you fight him in his castle could have 3 possible reasons:

1) Again, he is sensing that Crono will die.  However, at this time he thinks its because he (Magus) will kill Crono.
2) He is sensing his own death.  Without Crono/Frog's interference here, its assumed that Magus dies here when he summons Lavos.  Since time/the future isn't certain/absolute he could still sense the potential for significant deaths, as I would say the Magus is also important to time. 
3) He's just saying it to be intimidating.  However, I doubt that the "black wind" would necessarily be interpreted at 'death' to Crono and crew, it might be a wasted taunt, and thus not something Magus would say, as he doesn't seem to be one who waste words. 

Additionally, when confronting Magus after Crono's death, how does Magus know that the Guru of Time is even still alive, let alone have the means to bring Crono back?  It could simply be that Magus knew from his own experience that Gaspar simply when through a time hole, and the Chrono Trigger was started/completed beforehand, and Janus knew of the project.

The next factor in wether or not Magus can manipulate time is because Marle can do it.  Marle's spell, haste, accelerates a person's actions, or enhances their frame of time.  As Marle is a descendant of the Zeal royal line, or at least assumed so since the family pendant is passed down, I take this is a genetic reference to the Zeal command over time/space, which is not only evident by Schala sealing a time gate, but also in Queen Zeals Black Omen.  While the Omen's ability over time may be due to either its connection to Lavos, and his abilities over time/space or a built in feature since the Ocean Palace was designed by wise men who manipulate time themselves, is irrelevant to my point.  Significant features/boss battles aren't repeated in the Black Omen through time, because?  Because like Dalton (who mind you is another example of manipulation of time/space) Zeal probably summons those creatures through a time void at the moment you come to attack her.  Once the creature has been pulled through time, and killed, it can't be pulled again, since it no longer exists, and therefore can't be there to fight you in another time.

So why doesn't magus have haste, or any other nifty time spells in his arsenal then?  Probably to condense his already impressive repertoire of spells, and also give a unique skill set for each character for various strategy combinations, particularly since Marle is already on the weak side of pairings.   The one exception to this is his skill 'black hole' While i don't think this is a real 'black hole' by any means, I think its a reversal of what Dalton and Zeal do.  Instead of summoning creatures through a void (that I guess they stored in there)  he instead simply tries to force them into one.  How he does this can be simply like how Dalton managed to do it, by managing to summon nothing.  So Magus summons 'nothing' and instead something gets sucked in.  The randomness factor is probably just a game mechanic so players can't do it to everything as a means of simplifying combat, or beating fights they might not have otherwise won.

So does this mean Magus opens up time portals and can do whatever he wants with history?  Not Necessarily.  Here I'm just suggesting that he has at least some form of control over time/space, and not a complete mastery of it.
Title: Re: The relationship between Magus' magic & Time/Space
Post by: Magus_Brokenhart on March 08, 2009, 09:26:07 am
Well, the way that Magus' Black Hole pulls the enemies in seems to be via condensed gravity. Trying to prove that the Black Hole he creates is real is vital importance because Black Holes mess around with space-time, opening up the probability of time travel or inter-dimensional travel (Darkness beyond time). His ultimate spell, Dark Matter also has to do with space. I don't think it is too far-fetched that Magus eventually learns to have some control on time travel.
Title: The relationship between Magus magic Time/Space
Post by: Francel on July 27, 2016, 11:30:23 am
All laws of physics are limited and according to QT
when they go to the limit all physical parameters space,
 time, energy, mass  . . .  disappear.
 This limit according to QT is called  "vacuum".
But these physical parameters can be reborn through
 "vacuum fluctuation/transformation"   
What can be done with this data mining?
==..

By the way, you can find more info in my new video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nUy9lbSzazw)