Chrono Compendium
Marbule Gallery - Completed Fan Creations => Crimson Echoes => Crimson Echoes Plot Construction => Topic started by: Hadriel on March 06, 2006, 08:29:02 am
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Wow, we need to do some stuff on this. As I understood it, the project's basically on hiatus until TF 2.1 comes out, but there's no reason why we can't at least get something done. And one thing that we haven't gotten done is, well, most of the things in the title.
I had a couple of new ideas and edits to the actual plot, but they're very minor; I'll send out another iteration of the master plot as soon as I find the time, which will likely be sometime this coming weekend because of mid-terms. One of them includes a lot of pain for Lucca, and possibly a dedicated Robo sidequest.
OK, I'll start off with weaponry, since we've done the most on it. I'm simply going to lay down a flat list of every single weapon name anyone has suggested for every character (culled from the other thread) and if I feel like adding any of my own, I'll italicize them so you can tell the new ones apart, and bold the ones that are pretty much certainly going to be included.
~Crono
Lead Sword
Arco Iris
Ara Dei
Trusilver
Jade Hilt
Shamshir
Geistrand
Ryuraizan
Hattori Hanzo
Shima
Meido (afterlife)
Meifumado (Buddhist hell)
Dotanuki
Kodachi
Wakizashi (short sword, same as Kodachi)
Sakki (palpable desire to kill)
Bokuto (wooden practice sword)
Onibocho (Demon Knife)
~Glenn
ArmingEdge
Gilt Sword
DwarfSword
Caliburn
Clarent
Galatine
PaxGuardia
Nauthiz
Masamune (big duh right here)
Maximus
~Marle
YewBow
FarShooter
Fay Arrow
Ivory Bow
Cherubim/Kerubim
Alkanost
Fail-Not
Naveed
~Lucca
QuantaShot
SnipeShot
VerneShot
FreeRadical
Flintlock
Zonker8000
DualMagnum
Sterling
~Robo
Strainer
Atlas
EmpireHand
Clasp
PryingHand
SteamPunch
DeathGrip
Impax
Imperator
*If the Servo Module can be done, we need to think of another set of weapons for him.
~Schala
DreamStone
Sun Charm
Diamond Pin
Hope Jewel
Star of Zeal
Will of Fire
Living Zeal
Death Wish
Peace Charm
~Magus
Grigori
Khadhulu
Kronian
Iscariot
Erebos
Totentanz
Gehenna
Vanitas
Legion
EbonyMoon
I've also been mentally toying with the idea of having gag weapons, like Crono's mop from CT or the joke weapons from Soul Calibur. They wouldn't necessarily have to be exceptionally weak, though; they could just be references to something else entirely that we want to throw in for one reason or another. For example, I had an idea for Robo's joke weapon, a ranged energy weapon named the Prometheus Buster. As this is far too long to fit in the window, it's conveniently shortened to P. Buster. At least some of you probably know where the term Buster originated to describe a blaster weapon; the Mega Man series used it first, and Robo carries almost the exact same vibe as X, as well as having a backstory that touches on many of the same themes as the idea of Reploids does. Marle's gag weapon, in my mind, would either be a bowcaster or a blowgun, while Lucca's could be a paintball gun or a DL44. Magus probably has the most possibilities for gag weapons; he's a naturally dark and intimidating character, which results in plenty of ways to take the piss out of him with weapon choices. He could have a broom, a pitchfork, one of those cow axes from Diablo, a lance of some kind, who knows.
We did have a few item and armor names in the old thread. I'll dig those up later; have to work on an econ project now.
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I have added all of these to the current Rom. You may want to Edit that first post if you know of any special attributes the weapons might have (stop, critical hit etc).
I also thought that Dual Magnums is hilarious.
--jp
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Oops I forgot about this thread. Marle's bow is actually the Alkonost (a Russian harpy, from the Greek Alcyone), not Alkanost.
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Oops I forgot about this thread. Marle's bow is actually the Alkonost (a Russian harpy, from the Greek Alcyone), not Alkanost.
It's a kingfisher, according to my Greek Lexicon...
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bit of a bump here.
We need new names for the armor/helmets.
--jp
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How many armor / helmet per person? We should probably break down what Chrono Trigger has (since it has male, female, character specific and general purpose armor) and decide how want want to divide that up here.
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well really right now we only need one or two of each so we can sell them in the stores.
--jp
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well really right now we only need one or two of each so we can sell them in the stores.
--jp
Helmets... hmmm... weapons are easier, eh? Well, if you want to talk legendarially, there aren't many. There's Aegis, for a piece of armour, though that's rather overused these days, I think. Just go with what was suggested early on, especially for early armour: simple descriptions of what they are. Say, ScaleCloak, or TuskHelm (a throwback to the famous boar-tusk helm of Odysseus in the Iliad). You can have Dendric if you really want to allude to the Trojan war (the name the heavy armour they've found in the past years Dendric armour, though I'm not sure why. Dendron is tree in ancient Greek.) Corinthian is too much a direct reference, eh? Ilyrian as well, probably. Hermic might work. Centurian would be a VERY good name for a helm, come to think of it. Yeah, remember that one. Anyway, I'm spent.
I'm not feeling very creative today, at any rate.
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Perhaps we could say that Guardia looted the defeated Mystics after the Mystic War, so that they have new armors to sell? We could have stuff like HenchHelm, JugglerCape, Naga Skin, etc.?
Works only for 602 AD though.
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Did we ever definitively figure out the weapons / armor lists? It's important because we're doin sidequests and the master quest for weapons is going to come into play, along with armor stuff.
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Apparently, there is a quite sufficient amount of names proposed... but in order to set everything in stone, I think we'll probably need to figure out what stat and status bonuses we can have. This is what we forgot to consider when the list was first made. For instance, are elemental weapons possible, or weapons that cause status effects? Are we stuck with the CT equipments set status bonuses?
Oh and is it 100% sure that we can change weapon types? It'd be a shame if Magus were to be stuck with only 4 scythes like in CT.
Anyway, what we can do early is the ultimate weapons/armors stuff. I'm jumping to the side-quest topic.
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Seems we can't have elemental weapons. I'll get things going.
Weapons alotted to each character:
Crono 20
Marle 10
Lucca 11
Robo 12
Frog 9
Ayla 5
Magus 4
71
CE Chapter availability:
Crono 24
Marle 24
Lucca 24
Magus 23 (average)
Glenn 21
Robo 23
Ayla 10
So the party basically hits the ground running except for Ayla, but she's special and does not quite need as many weapons as the others. We should ditch the giant focus on Crono to some extent. If we still focus on giving Crono say, 13, and Ayla 5, that leaves 53 for the others. Everyone gets 10 weapons with 3 remaining special ones in case we forget something in the plot and have to make a special weapon. So with that in mind:
Crono
Lead Sword (Start)
Shima
Jade Hilt
Ryuraizan
Meifumado
Shamshir
Sakki
BurningCut
Onibocho
Trusilver
Geistrand SQ
Arco Iris (Rainbow)
Ara Dei (Rainbow EX)
Marle
YewBow (Start)
FarShooter
Fay Arrow
Ivory Bow
Ice Pierce
Kerubim
Alkanost
Fail-Not
Naveed (Valkyrie)
Valhalla (Valkyrie EX)
Lucca
Flintlock
SnipeShot
Zonker8000
DualMagnum
VerneShot
FreeRdical
Sterling
QuantaShot
AtashBlast (Wondershot)
Sunspot (Wondershot EX)
Robo
Strainer
ClashVice
PryingHand
SteamPunch
P.Buster
Atlas
EmpireHand
DeathGrip
Impax (Terra Arm)
Imperator (Terra Arm EX)
Glenn
ArmingEdge
Gilt Sword
DwarfSword
Caliburn
Clarent
Galatine
Nauthiz
PaxGuardia
Maximus SQ
Masamune
Magus
Grigori
Khadhulu
Iscariot
Erebos
Totentanz
Vanitas
Beguile
Kronian
Legion
DoomSickle
EbonyMoon (DoomSickle EX)
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Questions
1. Any objections / suggestions?
2. What would you call a member of Valhalla? A Valhallan?
3. I suppose next we need to figure out weapon abilities. I'll condense the plot guide down to a really simple breakdown of dungeons so we can assign weapons and armor later. The dungeon theme will be posted so we can assign skills to suit the environment.
And on an unrelated note, I'm warming up to Eric Serra's Goldeneye score. It's different, but how incredibly it works for that movie...
Armor is next, so I'll do a preliminary post before condensing the plot guide.
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ARMOR :mrgreen:
And the counts for CT are...
10 General use
8 Elemental (vest / plate)
5 Male
5 Female
2 Lucca
2 Magus
I think we can add a new dimension to the elemental armor by planning the Darkness Beyond Time well enough to pose threats using all elements. Anyhow, to free up ultimate armor, perhaps we should ditch the elemental vests and just stick to plates? And then, if we docked Magus and Lucca for one armor each, we'd have all 7 covered with one extra. But it all comes down to whether we want to do ultimate armor for everyone or just a genreal "ultimate armor" like the Moon Armor.
Anyway, out current ideas...
General Armor
Bonemold
KevlarVest
Dragonhide
Titanium
ForceField
DreamGuard
LavosScale
PrismGuard
Preserver
Eidolon
Male Armor
Heat Plate
ShogunSuit
Demonhide
Female Armor
Flexiform
Pallas
Gaia Heart
Aigis
Oracle
Elemental
Cyan Cover
FlamePress
CloudCloak
ShadeShawl
(...or we could use "Red" Plate again)
Ultimate Armor
Crono - JeetKuneDo
Marle - Camilline
Lucca - Electra
Robo - Spark Suit
Glenn - CrestPlate
Ayla - LifeSarong
Magus - CrimseHood
With one remaining.
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Questions
1. General suggestions. Crono and Lucca probably need ultimate armor names, and revisions are okay for the others if you find something horrible.
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And again, before I condense stuff, let's do helmets:
17 General
3 Male
2 Magus
1 Female
1 Lucca
18
General
Skull Cap
PorreBeret
TuskHelm
CarryOnHat
Numitor
CrestHelm
WingedHelm (prevents slow and stop)
Aidoneus (evasion)
[Berserker]
HermesCap (automatic haste)
Pearl Cap
Centurian
Uncle Fez (new Ozzie pants?)
Male
RuggedBand
VirileHelm
Lion Head
Female
Cinderella
Starglaze
Ultimate
Crono -
Marle -
Lucca -
Glenn -
Robo -
Ayla -
Magus - Guile Mask
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Questions:
1. Ultimate helms or no? Regardless Magus will be getting a Guile Mask.
2. Names upon names are needed here.
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Absolute damnation. I'd written down a whole lot, and for some reason my stupid computer started freezing, and it managed to delete the whole post. So, dammit again, and I'll try and be brief.
Firstly, armour. And yes, armour. I don’t like your bloody American ‘armor’. It’s too short. Armour is far more majestic.
Electra Ultimate for Lucca. Named after the strong heroine of certain Greek plays. The daughter of Agamemnon.
Camilline Armour for females. Named after the warrior maiden of the Aeneid.
Now... helmets...
Numitor One of the first kings of Rome. This works well by association with Janus, but might be better as a weapon than as a helmet.
Cinderella Joke helmet for Janus (can't you just see it? 'This can only fit one of us...') or a serious one for another character.
WingedHelm Certain ancient helmets, like of the Samnites or the Celts, had wings. I guess it implies speed.
CrestHelm Ancient Greek helmets had crests. This is a more general type, I suppose.
Lion Head The SPCA will get OUR heads for this one, but hey, Herakles did it... it also implies regality.
HermesCap Self-explanatory.
Skull Cap I don’t like the way Centurian is the starting helmet. Really, a Centurian, if you really think about it, is a ‘Roman’ helmet. It belongs in the 2AD time period, later on in the game, where in our world Rome existed. Skull Cap, as probably the simplest form of helmet, would be best for first.
CarryOnHat Say this quickly and you get Carrion Hat, which is dead bodies, like at a battlefield.
Crono (14) - need a joke one.
I don't know if I like all these names. A few too many foreign sounding ones. But whatever. It's still a good list. No serious objections. And, of course, the last two are perfect. Wait... what’s SQ? And I just had a thought... maybe from the monster Khrusaor you can get a sword called Khrusaor (like the Ultima weapon in the Final Fantasies)? After all, Khrusaor does mean ‘gold sword.’
Lead Sword (Start)
Shima
Jade Hilt
Ryuraizan
Meifumado
Shamshir
Sakki
BurningCut
Onibocho
Truesilver
Khrusaor
Geistrand
Arco Iris (Rainbow)
Ara Dei (Rainbow EX)
Marle (11) - room for 2 more serious ones.
To answer your question, there’s no such thing as a Valhallan. A resident there is one of the... bloody difficult word. Let’s see... Einheriar. Anway... I’d order the list a bit differently. Mainly, I’d put FarShooter a bit later, seeing as it’s referring to Apollo the Archer himself. The only name I don’t quite like is Valhalla. It doesn’t quite fit, because everyone knows it’s a place name. Freya, the name of the Norse war-goddess, might be a better bet. It keeps that connection with Valkyrie, which I think you were shooting for. Oh, and I have to go with Hadriel and his ‘Bowcaster’ for her joke weapon. Total weapons 8+2+1. My revised list:
YewBow (Start)
Ivory Bow
Fay Arrow
Ice Pierce
Fail-Not
Kerubim
FarShooter
Alkanos
Naveed (Penultimate)
Freya (Ultimate; Naveed EX)
Bowcaster (Joke Weapon)
Lucca (12) - room for 1 more serious one.
No issues here, except maybe QuantaShot being so high. But that’s not too big an issue. Personally, I’d have put FreeRdical just before AtashBlast, and VerneShot before it. And for a joke weapon? StarkyGun. Have to reference CC. And I added in CosmicBlast, bringing the total to 9+2+1 = 11. What the heck, this is how I’d put it.
Flintlock (Start)
QuantaShot
SnipeShot
DualMagnum
Zonker8000
CosmicShot
Sterling
VerneShot
FreeRdical
AtashBlast (Penultimate)
Sunspot (Ultimate, AtashBlast EX)
StarkyGun (Joke Weapon)
Robo (10) - room for 2 more serious, and 1 joke.
Strainer (Start)
ClashVice
PryingHand
SteamPunch
P.Buster
Atlas
EmpireHand
DeathGrip
Impax (Terra Arm)
Imperator (Terra Arm EX)
All good here. But we need a joke weapon, and there is room for more.
Glenn (10) - room for a few more, and a joke one.
Weren’t there more listed before? Hmm... I suppose not. Anyway, this is good, except I’m not sure which way the ‘penultimate/ultimate’ is structured.
ArmingEdge (Start)
Gilt Sword
DwarfSword
Caliburn
Clarent
Galatine
Nauthiz
PaxGuardia (Penultimate)
Maximus (Ultimate, PaxGuardia EX)
Masamune (Super-ultimate)
Magus (12) - room for a few more.
I don’t quite like these. DoomSickle doesn’t have enough feeling behind it. It works for a start, but not a finish. Especially since it is from Chrono Trigger, I don’t think we should use it again, save for the very first. EbonyMoon also... okay, actually, in this case I’d thought to laud the name I thought of, the Kronian. I thought it would work well as an ultimate, by association with Chrono/Crono. The sickle of Kronos, which overthrew Ouranos, god of heaven... a compelling picture, I think. Furthermore, I judge the second to best should be Totentanz. I don’t know who came up with that one, but ‘Dance of Death’ is too good a name to be relegated to anything other than second. And if not second, it should be first. The others can be in whichever order, only that I think maybe Numitor should be put in there as a weapon. Also, I was thinking Thyrsus as a joke weapon for Janus. The history behind that is the Maenads, or Bacchantes, the female followers of Dionysus, were said to wield these things to wield off the advances of the Satyrs. Also, it looked like a phallus. Totally incongruous with Janus, eh? Furthermore, I know Hadriel suggested this one, but I’m not comfortable with Khadhulu. I’ve removed it on my list, but you can put it back if you want. Oh, and I added Numitor which I mentioned earlier.
Anyway, so a revised list:
DoomSickle (Start)
Grigori
Iscariot
Erebos
Vanitas
Legion
Numitor
Beguile
EbonyMoon
Totentanz (Penultimate)
Kronian (Ultimate, Totentanz EX)
Thyrsus (Joke Weapon)
Of course, all of these can be shifted a bit to allow for dungeon accuracy. You’re not going to put a VerneShot in 2AD, after all.
Anyway, in a side note about armour... anyone ever think ancient armour was boring? Well, I was read a Greek tragedy - the Seven Against Thebes, I doubt anyone’s read it, as it’s one of the most obscure and archaic of the tragedies - which includes a large section describing the armour of the enemy champions. Two bits stand out. Firstly, the messenger speaks of one Eteoklus, who has whistles by his horse’s bits. Imagine that! You’re being charged by an enemy chariot, and you hear this dicordant whistle when the horses pant. Pretty nifty, and would be quite frightening, I imagine. Secondly, the messenger speaks of the hero Tydeus, who inside the rim of his shield has bells - and I imagine these aren’t high-pitched sleigh bells, either. Already these heroes wear crests in order to intimidate their enemies - imagine meeting a man in battle when heavy bells peal whenever he shakes his shield. I was so interested in that description, I used it in writing (one of my projects is the writing of a Greek tragedy, based on the Seven, but focussing on the hero Amphiaraos), when I have it said: ‘Listen! / The bells upon his great shield peal, / and stun to torpor the sons of Thebes, / threatening heaven with bloody discord.’
Oh, and yeah, and yeah, Guile Mask is an absolute neccessity.
And funny you should mention the Goldeneye soundtrack. I just saw the movie yesterday for the first time in years. My brother commented that he didn't remember the music being so weird. Heh. It IS a bit strange. But now I've got a hankering to play the game again.
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Glenn (10) - room for a few more, and a joke one.
Weren’t there more listed before? Hmm... I suppose not. Anyway, this is good, except I’m not sure which way the ‘penultimate/ultimate’ is structured.
ArmingEdge (Start)
Gilt Sword
DwarfSword
Caliburn
Clarent
Galatine
Nauthiz
PaxGuardia (Penultimate)
Maximus (Ultimate, PaxGuardia EX)
Masamune (Super-ultimate)
I have two names for Glenn, Nirvana and Grandleon(or Grandlion)
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Okay, now. So I’ve heard there are 66 open weapons slots aside from Ayla’s fists. That means 11 for each character. I suppose we don’t really need joke weapons, so we can cut those right now. I’ll look over the list now and set the weapons into a more finalized 11 for each. That’s a starting weapon, a penultimate, an ultimate, and 8 others. The order, however, will be pliable to account for the eras. So, the ‘finalized’ weapons lists... and armour and helms. By the way, red is still unnamed, blue is something I've changed since before (as in a name, not mere order). Oh, and green is for the ones ZeaLitY just thought of.
WEAPONRY
11 for each character (9 normal; 1 penultimate; 1 ultimate)
1 Extra
CRONO
Lead Sword (Start)
Shima
Jade Hilt
Ryuraizan
Meifumado
Shamshir
Sakki
Truesilver Extra Speed like a swallow (Truesilver is, after all, Mithril, which is very light)
Geistrand Extra damage to magic enemies (much like the DemonHit)
Arco Iris (Penultimate)
Ara Dei (Ultimate; Arco Iris EX)
Changes... I took out Khrusaor. That wasn’t really neccessary anyway. I didn’t like BurningCut either. Personally, I’m not a fan of all the Japanese names, but they’re staying anyway. However, as one more name needed to be cut I chose Onibocho. The others all remain.
LUCCA
Flintlock (Start)
QuantaShot
SnipeShot
DualMagnum
Zonker8000
CosmicShot
Sterling
VerneShot
FreeRdical
AtashBlast (Penultimate)
Sunspot (Ultimate; AtashBlast EX)
Nothing changed here save for if you need to alter the order.
MARLE
YewBow (Start)
Ivory Bow
Belly Shot
Fay Arrow
Hoarfrost
Fail-Not
Parthian Increases evasion.
Kerubim
FarShooter
Alkanost (Penultimate)
Naveed (Ultimate; Alkanost EX)
Marle was rather unrepresented. I had to add a weapon, and changed some others about. Ice Pierce I replaced with Hoarfrost, for one. Naveed is a beautiful name, but I didn’t like the Valhalla before, nor do I like the Freya I changed it to. As such, Naveed is now the ultimate, and Alkanost the second. That required two other middle weapons. Belly shot, alluding to how certain crossbows were used; and Parthian, the desert archers who were Rome’s nemesis.
ROBO
Strainer (Start)
ClashVice
Goldfinger
PryingHand
SteamPunch
P.Buster
Atlas
EmpireHand
DeathGrip
Impax (Penultimate)
Imperator (Ultimate; Impax EX)
Robo worked through and through, but needed one more arm. I thought Goldfinger might be kind of funny.
GLENN
ArmingEdge (Start)
Gilt Sword
Stinger
Caliburn
Clarent
Galatine
Nauthiz
Grandleon Nightmare's suggestion.
PaxGuardia (Penultimate)
Maximus (Ultimate, PaxGuardia EX)
Masamune (Super-ultimate)
In addition to needing one more name, certain ones for Glenn were... not that great. I removed DwarfSword and instead added Grandleon. Also, I added Stinger - alluding to ‘Sting’ in the Hobbit - as an early sword. Thus there are 11 swords. Though one less intermediate than the others, because of the Masamune.
JANUS
Erebos (Start)
Grigori
Iscariot
Vanitas
Legion
Numitor
EbonyMoon
Beguile
Totentanz (Penultimate) Found with the Furies.
Kronian (Ultimate, Totentanz EX)
The only problem was DoomSickle. That was from Trigger. So I removed it, and put ‘Erebos’ there instead. I also played around with the order (I figured Beguile should be nearer the end). I did leave one weapon out, however - his total only comes to 10 - as Janus classically should have less weapons. This means we can still implement a joke like the broom or something for one of the characters, if we wish.
ARMOURY
As it’s set up...
12 General,
4 Male
4 Female
4 Elemental
7 Ultimate
1 Defends-against-all
GENERAL
Brigandine
Nautishell
XocotlSuit
FusedPlate
Cabrakan
Lamellar X (lamellar scales are those like on ancient armour)
ForceField
DreamGuard
LodeArmor (I'd have taken shield, but since these are all pieces of armour)
NaconCape
PrismGuard
Eidolon
Here there were the greatest problems, I think. The names weren’t really compelling, so I tried to do better. If you have any issues, tell me. Okay, I added Brigandine. Added Dendron, LamellarX. And I kept ForceField, DreamGuard, PrismGuard, and Eidolon. That made the total 7, needing 3 more.
MALE
Endymion
ShogunSuit
Infernus
EnkiduHide
Hmmm... HeatPlate? Demonhide? ShogunSuit is good, to be sure, but I figured the others needed changing.
FEMALE
Flexiform
Pallas
Gaia Heart
Oracle
Sure, these are good.
ELEMENTAL
Cyan Cover
FlamePress
CloudCloak
ShadeShawl
I liked these, and didn’t change a bit.
ULTIMATE
Crono - JeetKuneDo
Marle - Camilline
Lucca - Electra
Robo - Spark Suit
Glenn - CrestPlate
Ayla - NemeanHide
Magus - CrimseHood
I changed Ayla’s LifeSarong to NemeanHide. A hide fits Ayla very well... and can’t you just see her outfitted in Herakles’ lion-skin? LifeSarong can be an accessory, like the Sarongs were in Cross.
DEFENDS-AGAINST-ALL STATUS AILMENTS
(Still Unnamed)
HELM-OURY... ummm... HELMETS
From the counting, I figured we had what, 24 total slots for helmets? Here’s how it’s split up now:
13 General
2 Male
2 Female
7 Ultimate
GENERAL
Skull Cap
TopEnd
KnaveHelm
PorreBeret
TuskHelm
CarryOnHat
CrestHelm
WingedHelm (prevents slow and stop)
Aidoneus (evasion)
MedeaCrown (inflicts berserk)
HermesCap (automatic haste)
Pearl Cap
Centurian
Uncle Fez (new Ozzie pants?)
Okay, removed Numitor as it’s now a weapon for Janus. Made the helm for berserk ‘MedeaCrown.’ Added TopEnd.
MALE
RuggedBand
VirileHelm
Removed Lion Head in favour of it being Ayla’s.
FEMALE
Cinderella
Starglaze
This is fine.
ULTIMATE
Crono - Lee Band (this one’s for you, ZeaLitY: isn’t that character from Naruto called Rock Lee?)
Marle - Scythian (not too sure on this one...)
Lucca - MadScience
Glenn - Oneiros
Robo - Funnel X17 (hey, why not?)
Ayla - Lion Head
Magus - Guile Mask
So, what do you think? A few things still missing, but it's getting there.
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General armor suggestions:
Nautishell
Aeon Vest
Golem Skin
Cabrakan (Mayan god of earthquakes)
Nacon Cape (Mayan god of war)
XocotlSuit (Aztec star / fire god)
LodeShield (right from Chrono Trigger)
FusedPlate
Male perhaps:
Dynamus
SinewyCoat
Endymion
EnkiduHide (okay, can't get much more male than Enkidu)
Infernus
Ultimate:
For some backstory, the two pieces of the ultimate armor come from the Entity dungeon and the Khrusaor. The Entity's gift is luminous but there's simply not enough of it; some foundation substance has to be applied. That's where the Khrusaor's initially-worthless shell splinter comes in. Melchior will combine the two with Rainbow Shell to create...
Well, that's the issue. I want it to be something unbelievable. Otherworldly, even. Something indisputably on top.
Ouranos?
And for Glenn's helm...
Oneiros?
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General armor suggestions:
Nautishell
Aeon Vest
Golem Skin
Cabrakan (Mayan god of earthquakes)
Nacon Cape (Mayan god of war)
XocotlSuit (Aztec star / fire god)
LodeShield (right from Chrono Trigger)
FusedPlate
Male perhaps:
Dynamus
SinewyCoat
Endymion
EnkiduHide (okay, can't get much more male than Enkidu)
Infernus
Ultimate:
For some backstory, the two pieces of the ultimate armor come from the Entity dungeon and the Khrusaor. The Entity's gift is luminous but there's simply not enough of it; some foundation substance has to be applied. That's where the Khrusaor's initially-worthless shell splinter comes in. Melchior will combine the two with Rainbow Shell to create...
Well, that's the issue. I want it to be something unbelievable. Otherworldly, even. Something indisputably on top.
Ouranos?
And for Glenn's helm...
Oneiros?
Those are some bloody good names. I'll see to editing that last post.
As for the ultimate... well, Ouranos in myth has this overtone of being overthrown. The reason the Titans are called the Titans is because that's what Ouranos called them: the Stretchers, because they over-stretched their power, and overthrew him. Anyway, Ouranos is not an original god in Greek myth anyway. The four first are Chaos, Tartaros, Gaia, and Eros, of whom Chaos is first of all. I guess you could then call it ChaosCloak (or KhaosCloak if you want a more direct transliteration, and a bit different spelling.) Another idea might be something with Chrono. Ie. ChronoVest (or even Time Shell or something like that.) Or heck, because it does everything, call it Compendium. Heh. So those are my ideas: KhaosCloak; ChronoVest; Time Shell; and Compendium.
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Aha, Compendium might give us that bad sense of arrogance; it's tempting...
At the moment, I'm debating between Time Shell and KhaosCloak. Khaos looks like Khrusaor, and cloak isn't used anywhere else. Still...it implies a smidgeon of negativity. Time Shell is impartial, just like time itself.
Guess we should name their components parts. For the Khrusaor:
Khaos Pace (Khaos Carapace)
Exokhaos
For the Entity miracle:
Dreamweave
I'll stop there. Dreamweave works incredibly well. The planet dreams and the weave implies that it isn't quite a full suit of armor yet.
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Do we want to rename any of the accessories? I don't think we need to, considering we can't really modify their traits...
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I've finished http://www.chronocompendium.com/CrimsonEchoes/Equipment.html . I made a major effort to space weapons and armor out appropriately. Here are pressing problems:
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Chapter 21
* 1 FarShooter, 1 FreeRdical, 1 DeathGrip, and 1 Beguile provided by Melchior
This seems a little excessive. It's because I had too many weapons by the time the sidequests arrived. So we have an option for players:
1. Assume they won't bother doing the sidequests and dole these weapons out like this
2. Put them in 11998 B.C., Entity dungeon, or DBT dungeon, where players who DID do the sidequests won't have much use for them
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Lastly, the time has come to plan the ultimate armor. Starting with sidequests in chapter 21, we need to hand out these items. We also have an interesting situation with Glenn. If he gets the PaxGuardia, it'll become the Maximus when Melchior upgrades everything before the DBT. But...where can the Masamune come in?
Remaining items:
Weapons
Glenn
* PaxGuardia (Penultimate)
* Maximus (Ultimate, PaxGuardia EX)
* Masamune (Super-ultimate)
Armor
Ultimate
* Crono - JeetKuneDo
* Marle - Camilline
* Lucca - Electra
* Robo - Spark Suit
* Glenn - CrestPlate
* Ayla - NemeanHide
* Magus - CrimseHood
Helmets
Ultimate
* Crono - Lee Band
* Marle - Scythian (not too sure on this one...)
* Lucca - MadScience
* Glenn - Oneiros
* Robo - Funnel X17 (hey, why not?)
* Ayla - Lion Head
* Magus - Guile Mask
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Why don't we have Glenn's ultimate armour be called CyrusPlate or CyrusMail? It could be sentimental in a way.
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Okay, it looks like all the names are chosen. Hmmm... should I try and do drawings for these?
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The question is always, "what is to be gained?" At most, a handful of fans will look at them out of sheer curiosity, and they'll take up a couple pages on the giant Crimson Echoes feature. But if that sounds a bit mediocre and isn't worth the effort, then it simply isn't worth the effort.
But we do have a need for something grander -- a full, colored drawing of all the heroes. That would be very tough, but it has been one of my goals. If you would ever be up for that, I think we could go about it by first drawing their ultimate equipment (weapon and armor; no helmet unless it is a headband since it will obscure the characters) and then dressing a full drawing of the heroes in them. I've always wanted to see Crono equipped in the Moon Armor or something like that, but here we have the chance to create our own armor. The image would be used in promotional posts and things like that.
But this is a colossal task, especially if the characters are too look perfect .It'd be something requiring many hours. Still, someone is going to end up doing it by release, so if you have the time it is yours.
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*cough*Saridon*cough*greytheangel*cough*couldhelp*cough*
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The question is always, "what is to be gained?" At most, a handful of fans will look at them out of sheer curiosity, and they'll take up a couple pages on the giant Crimson Echoes feature. But if that sounds a bit mediocre and isn't worth the effort, then it simply isn't worth the effort.
But we do have a need for something grander -- a full, colored drawing of all the heroes. That would be very tough, but it has been one of my goals. If you would ever be up for that, I think we could go about it by first drawing their ultimate equipment (weapon and armor; no helmet unless it is a headband since it will obscure the characters) and then dressing a full drawing of the heroes in them. I've always wanted to see Crono equipped in the Moon Armor or something like that, but here we have the chance to create our own armor. The image would be used in promotional posts and things like that.
But this is a colossal task, especially if the characters are too look perfect .It'd be something requiring many hours. Still, someone is going to end up doing it by release, so if you have the time it is yours.
Yeah, you're right. I might try drawing a few weapons just for the fun of it (for my own sake), but I know what you mean - it really has not direct meaning or application to the project.
And as for larger drawings... well, I'm not good enough an artist for that. I can draw, to be sure, but my hand isn't natural enough at it, most especially in an anime style - the drawings I've done in recent years have been of a more realistic type, like in my sig. I might be able to draw them, but I wouldn't be able to naturally pose them. See my recent drawing of the Three Gurus as an example of what I mean. However, there are lots of others who are very good anime artists that you could recruit from the forums - or, maybe, you could ask CuteLucca. She's probably the best CT artist I've ever seen.
And nightmare seems to be coming down with the touch of a cold.
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Okay; per his suggestion, we can ask grey_the_angel or saridon.
But in light of that, then hell yes, feel free to draw the perfect armor, weapons, helmets, or anything else that catches your fancy. We can use any and all of it for concept art. Someone needs to go grab the other pictures you made from the plot thread, though if you have them all hosted on some kind of webspace, you probably know where they are anyhow.
Oh, and all you who haven't, you should reply to http://www.chronocompendium.com/Forums/index.php?topic=3450.0 now that things are total back on track and rocking out. Well, they won't be *totally* back until we can catch up with our previous position on the new TF with a new ROM and plot, but we've got more promise for the project now than we've had in a long time.
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I've been thinking that we can make three helmets and maybe one piece of armor the award for the museum quest. I'll make another post.
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Glenn idea:
He can still get the PaxGuardia on the heirlooms quest, and he can even get the Maximus. But I'm going to have Melchior tell him during that upgrade sequence that despite his reservations, Melchior still trusts Glenn to wield the Masamune, and that he's sure that King Guardia XXI would give it to him. The player has the option of going to 602 A.D. and getting it, which will start a scene exactly like the one of Cyrus's departure from the castle in 590 A.D. Glenn will then go to this:
(http://www.chronocompendium.com/images/wiki/4/47/Cyrus_Ponders_Knighthood.png)
And after a couple comments, whatever characters came with him in the active party will go next to him and stare like him (though Magus will keep a sort of distance). We can even throw in the Knight Captain, who leaves before the party members arrives or even stays. This is a good extra scene to prepare for the DBT. Glenn then takes the Masamune to Melchior, who enhances it with Rainbow.
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For all 14 remaining ultimate items, we have a choice:
1. Melchior provides them
2. Museum / Sidequests provide them
3. In the vein of Glenn, trips to visit home / friends before stepping to the DBT provide them
4. A mix of the above
For instance, in number 3, Crono would go back home, view a picture of his father, and think of how his father taught him much about combat and living life to the fullest before passing away. He then takes out his father's old JeetKuneDo and Lee Band. Glenn already has a visit to Guardia Castle for the Masamune, so he'd pick up the CyrusPlate and Oneiros there as well.
Number three is awfully attractive for throwing even MORE character development in, but all in all we already have sufficient character deveopment and if 3 disrupts the pace of the game, we can settle for Melchior / Museum rewards. But I need input.
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I'd say 2&3. They need to be earned, not given.
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Heh. This is far from perfect (as you said, you should ask Grey or someone), but I tried my hand at dong a character alone... and for some reason that ended up being Lucca. Though, I suppose, when it comes right down to it, she probably is my favorite CT character... anyway...
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v413/guardian_of_ages/LuccaDone2.jpg)
Heh. Once more into the fray...
I kind of borrowed from my old drawing for the RadiclDreamer gun for this one (which is presumably the Sun Spot... oh, and by the way, yeah, I think I still have all those drawings somewhere. If not online, then on my computer.) I guess this armour is meant to be the Electra, judging by its Greek influence (a bit like the Classical Hoplite armour, which at times had a linen cuirass to the chest, with scales for the belly... only I've replaced the linen with steel, and added a few shoulder pauldrons such as Greek armour woudln't have had.) For the helmet I stuck with a more typical Lucca look, just changed a bit, particularly the red glasses (it's CRIMSON Echoes, after all...) and a sort of scale neck protection. Actually, I thought this was kind of a neat look for Lucca. I can just see her turning about to hold the rearguard, picking off a few pursuing enemies. And that's another thing: I drew her seeming a bit older than the classical depictions of her imply. I figure she'll have aged a bit.
And... bloody hell. The antenna was messed up. I forgot to erase the background there, so you can't see it sticking back. Damn. Well, you get the idea anyway.
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How long did it take you? It's not too shabby!
I guess I'll post later some ideas for all the ultimate armor / helmet dispensations.
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How long did it take you? It's not too shabby!
I guess I'll post later some ideas for all the ultimate armor / helmet dispensations.
Ummm... well, to draw... two or three hours. Then maybe another four or five to colour. I think. Somewhere around there. Yeah, I know. I'm a slow artist. Then another hour or so today for this revamped version, which follows. That last one didn't have enough colour defenition.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v413/guardian_of_ages/LuccaFinal2.jpg)
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Here we go:
Crono goes back to visit his mother, and reluctantly goes upstairs and sifts through things to find his father's old combat uniform...the JeetKuneDo. Crono's mom watches and helps narrate, and then tells Crono that there's someone else he should be seeing. The scene switches to a new Millennial Fair tileset location we'll make, where Crono and Marle discuss how they've come to face responsibility for time traveling, and hope to put an end to Lavos once and for all. The conversation will then become personal; Crono and Marle will both share the issue of losing parents...which segues into love as the camera pans up. The next day, Crono's mom reveals that her husband's bandana, which she's tied around his side of the bedpost since his death, is now Crono's to use. Toma XIII comes by to thank him for the museum.
Marle goes to 1 A.D. to visit Cedric the Executor, still a brash, harsh man, and his wife Aideen. Cedric exits the room as Aideen reveals that in spite of his harshness, he has at last united the human world and that prosperity must ensue. Aideen lets Marle know that she was given the finest female armor since the times of the floating palaces to wear so that no harm came to her while traveling at Cedric's side. Initially wanting to destroy them, she realizes Marle may still use them well and gives them to her. Cedric gives her a manly send off, noting that Guardia's blood is the strongest in the world.
Lucca goes to her house to see Taban and Lara. Taban knows she's about to enter battle, and suggests she go to the future to find some really amazing equipment -- to even bring back for tweaking in 1000 A.D.! At the mall, Lucca asks Johnny if he can finagle some combative armor, which he exchanges for a tune-up. As she prepares to exit, Melchior enters the store; he's been taking a few trips to see the world of the future. He laughs that it's taken thousands of years for science to match magic as a jest at Lucca. She takes it back to Chronopolis, where Gaspar and Melchior both pitch in with Lucca to enhance it. Magus even makes an appearance for a four-parter spell. While this is going on, Lucca reveals that she's very unsettled, because as a scientist it seems natural for her to be in the future to maximize her potential. Melchior agrees that people like Ayla, Glenn, and the others (except Magus) could simply return to their times and be happy, but that Lucca, having gotten a glimpse of humanity's potential, could never turn back. Gaspar then consoles her, noting that everything she does in 1002 A.D. will have a ripple effect on the future -- that with her genius, the state of 2302 A.D. will be achieved years before that date. Gaspar even says that despite the need to preserve timeline integrity, there are some instances...and then trails off. Melchior finishes by saying that yes, like the Gurus and Magus, there may be yet instances of safe extratemporal living -- provided the person is responsible. Melchior confides that Lucca does have this maturity, and Gaspar agrees -- but only if Lucca promises to keep Belthasar in line. Happy, Lucca returns to her house where Taban can't think of any improvements save to stamp the ASHTEAR stencil imprint on it. Lucca notes she'll have to go make a helmet now, but Taban lets it out that he fiddled with the Sun Stone before it was interred in Guardia Castle and managed to make a fancy piece of headgear. He pulls it out of storage for Lucca.
Robo speaks to Mother Brain, sort of reminiscing about how long it has been since his creation. Mother Brain hints at a pride in Robo, who asks her if she still can remember his creation. Mother Brain notes that despite the memory wipe, a subroutine focused on the R series has been running in the background -- she just can't crack it, as all functional construction data was protected by a security code with an override if she and her trade secrets were to fall into enemy hands. She says that a bit of the code was disseminated into all R series robots, and suggests Robo ask Belthasar if he can dig up the pieces Robo lacks. Belthasar is amused and runs a deep search on several mainland mainframes, but only turns up a small part. Robo then asks Atropos, who does have the rest. She is worried, though. They retire and talk; Atropos admires Robo -- noting that he's as brave and upright as any human ever was, and has done more for the space-time continuum than any mechanical being may ever accomplish. Robo assures her that there is much to be done in 2302 A.D., and that he has the greatest warriors in history supporting him. Atropos is still distraught, so Robo gives her something...it's the Ribbon Atropos gave him before dying in the ruined future. Robo tells her that if he could even display one ounce of the love and sincerity that she did in that ruined timeline before dying, he will emerge from the DBT victorious and unscathed. Atropos is moved and gives him the code. Mother Brain dispenses his new armor and helmet, the result of over three hundred years of continuous analytical improvement inside her processing.
Glenn: Melchior tells him during that upgrade sequence that despite his reservations, Melchior still trusts Glenn to wield the Masamune, and that he's sure that King Guardia XXI would give it to him. The player has the option of going to 602 A.D. and getting it; King Guardia XXI will also grant him Cyrus's plate mail, though the helmet is missing, probably stolen by collectors. This will start a scene exactly like the one of Cyrus's departure from the castle in 590 A.D. Glenn will then go to Zenan Bridge. And after a couple comments, whatever characters came with him in the active party will go next to him and stare like him (though Magus will keep a sort of distance). We can even throw in the Knight Captain, who leaves before the party members arrives or even stays. This is a good extra scene to prepare for the DBT. Glenn then takes the Masamune to Melchior, who enhances it with Rainbow. In 1002 A.D., the helmet sits in the museum. Glenn asks Toma XIII to borrow it, and Toma XIII laughs that he shouldn't be so serious -- that visiting his ancestor has resulted in more finds that he can count. He still notes that Toma XIV is going to have to make his own path in the world and won't be able to mooch off his dad.
Ayla enters the Chief Hut, but becomes distraught over Kino's absence and leaves. Glenn enters (if he's not in the party) and asks what happened. He finds her upon Singing Mountain at the summit. Ayla mourns Kino's death, referring to him as not strong enough to withstand the animals' anger at the cooling climate. Glenn asks Ayla if she would consider Cyrus "not strong enough." Ayla agrees that he could not defeat Magus, but Glenn tells her that Cyrus's example and death motivated him to ultimately become "strong enough" -- and that if Ayla uses Kino's life as inspiration, his strength will not be in vain and will help Ayla overcome the Time Devourer. Ayla...tries to agree, but still is somewhat perturbed. Glenn takes a more hushed tone, telling her that her example of totally unyielding life and passion makes her the most living member of the time travelers -- that everyone wishes he or her could be as strong and alive as Ayla. He tells her that even though something has gotten her down, the voice of the vibrant land can't be muted forever. Ayla uncovers a rock nearby and extracts the NemeanHide and Lion Head, strong hides made for the Reptite war but finished right before its conclusion. She buried them there, and now dons them for the final battle.
Magus is complicated. Though Schala is lost again, his new life has begun changing him...at the North Cape, he reminisces about standing there, condemning all of Zeal and the rest of the world while affirming his revenge. Back at Chronopolis, he asks Belthasar if he can use the TDC to take care of something...Belthasar acquiesces, and he travels to 598 B.C. The scene shifts to a mountain setting where Ozzie and Magus have just concluded training a couple Mystics. All but Magus leave; as he prepares to go...the Magus (we'll call him Magil now) we know steps out. Magus is disturbed and swears that he will kill whatever pixie or fool has decided to mock him. Magil asks Magus to take his best shit, which Magil promptly deflects and knocks Magus to the ground. As the dumbfounded Magus stammers, Magil asks him what his purpose is, calling him a narrow-minded child bent on revenge. Magil utters the name Schala, causing Magus to revile Magil and demand to know his identity. Magil asks Magus if he wants to get revenge on Lavos and kill the beast that destroyed his sister, but just as Magus begins to answer, Magil ridicules him again. Magil asks if Magus ever thought for one second if Schala was alive, noting that Magus has been consumed with hatred on a self-destructing path. Magus is absolutely confounded, still asking to know Magil's identity. Magil says to him, "be silent, and look upon your future." (Tacit intuereque tuus futurus.) Magil then demands to have the Crimson Hood, the magically enriched garb to be worn by Magus after the victory of the Mystic War. Magus, trembling, relinquishes its location. Magil tells Magus that nothing lives forever -- even that endless night of his circumstance. As Magil leaves, he decides that making Magus question his path at this stage may disrupt history, and knocks him out with a powerful blow to the head, noting that it will all seem a dream to him upon waking up. Magil departs, noting he should probably visit Janus once more (and finding the CrimseHood in between scene changes) and returns to Chronopolis. If the player visits Janus, Magil will pull out the Guile Mask from under the bed, remarking that it was to be worn at his royal coming of age ceremony and discarded to show his fair visage to the people of Zeal as a future ruler. He takes it with him back to Chronopolis, noting that "it has been a long time coming, Janus!"
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Oooh. Impressive. Most impressive. To quote Darth Vader. Really, that works perfectly. By the way, I have to ask, I got that right when I named the helm for Crono the Lee Band, right? I meant to allude to that Naruto character you like, but not knowing it myself might have messed up the name.
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It works well. Jeet Kune Do is what Bruce Lee "named" his philosophy of using what works, discarding what doesn't, learning from experience, and adding what is specifically your own. In other words, no style; just logic and no adherence to what tradition dictates. So Lee Band works well, even if Rock Lee (based on Bruce) isn't even considered.
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Ah, good. I like nothing better than when allusions work out nicely.
Just another thing... of course... Tacit intuereque tuus futurus... the command 'be silent' would probably be an imperitive, right? The root is in tacit, to be sure, but the verb is taceo, thus in imperitive it is 'tace'... unless I missed something. Intuereque is too advanced for me at this stage. It's deponent, and though I could unwind that in Greek, it's a little beyond me in Latin at the moment. But it seems to be right.
The last part should probably be constructed with 'de' and an ablative (de denoting 'concerning' and things alike.) Now normally, this then takes the ablative, and the word 'your' takes the same gender as the thing (not of the possessor, thus if I possess a door, which is porta, a feminine, it is not porta meus, but porta mea. You might know this... I'm not sure if you know Latin.) Anyway, I'm not quite sure how to handle this, because in this case futurus/a/um is in fact a participular form of 'to be', so it's basically saying that person or thing's future state of being. Its gender is in fact dependent on the thing. I can only assume that it thus takes the masculine because of Magus, thus futurus, and likewise tuus. However, it's ablative, not nominitive. Thus, likely futuro tuo. So it's probably more 'Tace intuereque de futuro tuo.' Of course, it might be advisable to retain what you have, as it flows better. And, as might be, I might have totally mistaken my Latin.
Oh, by the way, you should have him directly address Magus in Latin, and have Magus reply in it. It would be kind of interesting to see the names declined. Ie. 'Salve Mago! Salve Malo!' and a reply of 'Qui se? Trucidabo quodcunque animus aut stultus me statuit deridere.' Or something like that.
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It works well. Jeet Kune Do is what Bruce Lee "named" his philosophy of using what works, discarding what doesn't, learning from experience, and adding what is specifically your own. In other words, no style; just logic and no adherence to what tradition dictates. So Lee Band works well, even if Rock Lee (based on Bruce) isn't even considered.
I'm glad that you put it that way.
originally Jeet Kun Do "the way of the intercepting fist" was a style based solely on making you opponent move out of a 'safe' position and strike before they can strike you (intercept). however later he learned that style meant nothing but hindrance and Jeet kun Do simply became a philosophy.
For some reason I think "Jeet Kun Do" should be Chrono's ultimate bandanna, not body armor, for some reason it feels much more fitting to me.
It would make sense if his final armor was his father's enhanced by rainbow material, simply have the armor he gets be a key item, and then after Melchior supes it up it can have the name "Nexus Armor" or something
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Eh, I'm belated and need to catch up, but if I may comment on some stuff:
- The Grandleon:
Although it's a great name, I don't think we should have a weapon called so. It would confuse too many people, they would think that this sword has something to do with the Masamune.
- The Masamune (the real one!):
I assumed that Glenn was to already have it when he joins the party in the beginning. Nobody knows the Masamune in the... Masamune-less 602 A.D., so Glenn wouldn't risk storing it in the castle for curious people to mess with it. It would also make sense for Glenn to carry it when Kasmir is fought with his own past version of the Masamune. I don't think possessing the Masamune for the whole game would be a problem for the other swords available. We could still have more powerful swords and swords with magic bonuses, and one final Masamune upgrade to turn it into the ultimate sword. Just like in CT, in which Frog could equip the sword for all the game except for the Cathedral. The Masamune could be upgraded at the chapter in which Glenn trusts it in the Mammon Machine, that's where I intend to show a glimpse of the corrupted, "red branch" Masamune.
- The ultimate armors:
It seems a bit strange for Crono's and Ayla's equipments to be "ultimate armors". We don't know much about Crono's father, but how could his bandanna have been better than all the magical and legendary equipments that the party found or forged in CT and CT:CE? Same goes for Ayla's NemeanHide and Lion head. It's rather curious that a hide from the pre-magic era could be better than... anything else, really.
The CrimseHood's power is probably better justified, though I think there are some issues with it. Why does Magus need to go to the past to... er, ask himself the location of the artifact? Moreover, why wasn't it in Ozzie's Fort in CT, where Ozzie was said to have stored Magus' ultimate equipments?
Lastly, a more subtle name for the "Guile Mask" might be better. Magus is not Guile after all. I suck at naming helmets so I don't have any name to suggest, but I think something less fan-servicing (and more accurate) would fit better.
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- The ultimate armors:
It seems a bit strange for Crono's and Ayla's equipments to be "ultimate armors". We don't know much about Crono's father, but how could his bandanna have been better than all the magical and legendary equipments that the party found or forged in CT and CT:CE? Same goes for Ayla's NemeanHide and Lion head. It's rather curious that a hide from the pre-magic era could be better than... anything else, really.
Easy. The mythic connotation explains it. The Nemean Lion was Herakles' first task. He fought the beast, but none of his arrows could pierce the thing. So he strangled it, and used its own claws to skin it. Thereafter he wore it as armour - the portrayals often show the lion's head like a helmet. Ie.
(http://www.utexas.edu/courses/romanciv/Romancivimages23/commodus.jpg)
Okay, that's the emperor Commodus. But he's dressed up like Herakles, as he often did - hence the skin of the lion. The skin of the Nemean Lion was utterly impervious. Though mythical, you could still technically say that it was 'better' than any armour a smith could have forged at a later time... and maybe even better than the armour Hephaistos forges for Akhilleus.
Also, things from the future or from a magic time aren't necessarially better than pre-history. Why, think about, say, the whole Tolkien mythos. Is any given sword made in Gondor better than Glamdring? Are the Rings of greater power than the Silmarils? Antiquity tends to lend an air of power to things. Also, I rather think that any super-armour from the future or from magic would have the reverse effect on Ayla - it would probably hinder her, as she wouldn't understand it. You wouldn't give a Karate expert 16th century Knight armour, after all - it's technically superiour to his Karate Gi, but all his skills would be lost in the process. Same thing here. So for Ayla, yeah, it makes sense how it could be better than anything else. Do you really see her wearing something like adamantine armour or mail of truesilver as her ultimate?
For the bandana and all, going first back to the post before yours, I'd defend the bandana being named the Lee Band because, in naming it, I was thinking of ZeaLitY's favourite Rock Lee - and he always has a bandana, at least in the pictures that I've seen posted. As for Jeet Kun Do, I don't know much about it, but I still think it works better for armour. Nexus doesn't fit Crono's style very well - it'd be more fitting for a character like Robo. And Chrono'99, how can it be better? In the same way a 'VigilHat' can be better than outright helmets made of steel, or bone, which they wore earlier. Chrono Trigger never really paid too much heed to technical realism. I don't think that should be an issue here. If it works thematically, I'd say it works. Technical realism is the sort of thing I'd use when judging my own sort of writing. After all, what makes a small sickle (ie. DoomSickle) better than some of the scythes that Janus uses earlier on?
Lastly, a more subtle name for the "Guile Mask" might be better. Magus is not Guile after all. I suck at naming helmets so I don't have any name to suggest, but I think something less fan-servicing (and more accurate) would fit better.
Personally, I thought it the best of all the helmet names. Magus might not be Guile, but it's still taking a stab at that. Remember, he's also got a weapon called Beguile. Honestly, it comes across as rather funny - and though CE is more serious than Trigger, that comedic element is still there. I'm not sure what would be more 'accurate', anyway. Half the names in CT were unbelievably cheesy as it was.
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Well, that explains Ayla, but perhaps Crono can still take some kind of gi to Melchior to outfit with Rainbow platelets. That would explain that. The Lee Band would simply be imbued with his father's dreams maybe?
And I suppose GoldenMask works if we decide not to use Guile Mask. I reluctantly admit that it is sort of fanservicing.
Did the Magus confrontation seem excessive? I really wanted one of them to encounter his or her former self just because we can't really do that in creative stories unless they involve time travel. It could be explained that Magus still had it on him after its creation and was about to seal it, so our Magus picked a time to visit when he knew Magus would have it. We've done so much planning at this point that I'm anxious to get coding...
I'll fix the Glenn things.
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It's not really a question of material. Ayla would indeed never wear a metallic armor. I used the term "armor" because I don't know another word in English grouping "armor" as such and RPG stuff like tunics, skins, even robes, etc. Well I think "body protection" could be the term I need. Anyway, it's not a question of material: a VigilHat is better than other metallic protections because it's imbued with the magical properties of Fiona's Forest (if I recall correctly).
The problem with the NemeanHide lies in the fact that this reference doesn't flow well with the narrative of the game. The chronological discrepancy is too huge. There are a few instances of anachronistic real-world influences in the series, like "Cyrus" living in the Middle Ages and "Prometheus" in the future, but all of these are small enough not to shock the players: Robo Prometheus could have been named by Mother Brain after the mythical character even within the Chrono world, and Cyrus' era is simply and fancily inversed (died in 590 A.D. instead of born in 590 B.C.). Now what about the Nemean Lion? We're displacing it from a few thousand B.C. to 65 million B.C., that's quite something. The anachronism is especially disturbing as the CT Prehistoric era is absolutely devoid of any Greek reference. I believe we'd cause a lot of raised eyebrows if we inserted one like that. Having a Nemean Lion in Prehistory would be like having a Zealian called Zhuangzi: Doreen indeed quoted this Chinese philosopher in her speech about dreams, but still, "Zhuangzi" in the middle of Zeal... that's out of place. Sure, "Nemean Lion" sounds less foreign than Zhuangzi, but it's out of place nonetheless.
For people who know the Greek myth, seeing the Nemean Lion in 65,000,000 B.C. would be too much of a breaking of "the fourth wall". And let's not forget that people don't even necessarily know about this Greek myth. For those players, this ultra-resistant lion skin would appear really random. In both cases, the plot device is redundant, as there's already another ultimate monster in 11,998 B.C. which is similarly killed for its skin. Not only that, this lion skin introduction is also almost an instance of retcon, as there were never any mention of it in CT, even though the occasions to mention it were numerous (same goes for Magus' CrimseHood, actually). Even worse, it could constitute a plot-hole: if this thing is better than the best equipments forged or found in CT, and existed since before the Entity even triggered the Telepod incident, why didn't the party retrieve it in CT instead of waiting for CT:CE?
These two last points, retcon and plot-hole, also apply to Crono's father's Lee Band and JeetKuneDo (the 2 names are great though) and to Magus' CrimseHood. The other characters' protections fit well within the narrative.
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1300BC, to be precise. That's when Herodotos says the hero Herakles lived.
Anyway, I'm not quite seeing it in that way. Of course, if that is a problem, the MedeaCrown is far worse. Nonetheless, I'm willing to say the problem is very, very minimal. There is a tradition in games of doing this (more so in FF, but also in CT.) For example, playing through FFX, I'm constantly nodding going 'yeah, know this, know that.' For example, the wolves. Skoll? Garm? Fenrir? Those are wolves in Norse myth. In CT we have, very blatantly, the Three Wise Men. That's far more anachronistic (and really, when has CT ever been consistant on this sort of front? It's not a consistant game) than to meantion Nemea or Medea. I mean, when I first played CT I went 'heh. Melchior.' I knew the name, and I knew the reference at once. Same for Cyrus. Prometheus did the exact same thing for me. Those last two you mentioned, and the thing is... they set the precident for this sort of thing. This is the very point of allusion: the people who don't know it will see it as a mere name, those who do will immediately get the connection, and the presence of the object will become more meaningful for it. This is one of the reasons I despise a game like Xenosaga so much: its allusions are mere surface trivialities... things in name but not substance. There for shock value, but having no real connection with the actual thing, as though the writers were lazy and didn't bother to actually know what they were alluding to. I'm big on allusion, and always try to avoid that. The Furies I suggested be put into it aren't Furies only in name... they act like the Furies would. The NemeanHide is the armour of a hero who is shown carrying a club, a man of strength, a journeyer in the wild country and a killer of monsters. This is not out of keeping with Ayla. Nor was the Medea helm just a trite allusion. Medea, finding herself betrayed by Jason, who is preparing to marry the daughter of the king of Corinth, sends clothes (and maybe a crown, can't recall) to the king and the princess, tainted with her magic, that cause them to burn and horridly die when they receive them. That sort of fiery madness was in naming that. Or, if not specifically that one instance, then just the typical actions of Medea are associated with this. So, personally, I would say the reference flows exceedingly well, and I'm usually really picky on such matters.
These aren't allusions that one needs to force to make work. That's how I like allusions, in all my things. Allusions are ones of ideas and concepts, and not chronology. This isn't suppose to be the thing itself, but a thing 'like it'. Melchior did not bring presents to Jesus in CT. But that doesn't pose a problem? And you're probably giving people too much credit for knowing their myths these days, as it is. Personally, I'd probably have caught onto Nemean slower than one like Belthesar, or Prometheus. If they don't catch those ones right off, they won't catch Nemean. And for those who do... well... whatever. The thing is, we'd then have to remove half our names, espeically the ones I came up with. Erebos? That's Darkness in Greek. Kronian? A reference to the sickle of Kronos. Truesilver? To the Mithril of Tolkien. The list goes on.
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Well, there's no issue on the allusion in itself, the issue is on its location in the context of the era. There's absolutely no other Greek reference in the Prehistoric era. While names from various cultures and languages can appear in each era, this is different in Prehistory: the names in this period are far more universal-sounding, because they're either common nouns made proper (Rainbow Shell, Tyran's Fortress, an animistic Earth in the Japanese version, etc.) or outright meaningless clusters of syllables (Ioka, Laruba, Nizbel, etc., meaningless for us at least). By inserting a Greek reference in the middle of all this, we're sort of breaking a harmony, we're shifting this universal atmosphere to something much more regionally identifiable. In addition to the already numerous Greek allusions put everywhere, this Greek presence in Prehistory would definitely turn the vast and multicultural Chrono world into a purely Hellenocentric world (this term probably doesn't exist, but you know what I mean).
Aside from this thematic issue, the pragmatic problem I mentioned is also hard to avoid. The hide was never mentioned in CT, and was never retrieved even though it would have been awesomely useful. A hide more resistant than the Rainbow Shell... that's quite something. The fact that this legendary and ultra-resistant lion is mentioned like, once in the entire series is also disturbing. This is really both a retcon and a plot-hole. We can come up with fixes, like saying this ultimate item was forbidden, that other one was forgotten, etc. In the end however, it will still appear awkward, especially because we're dealing with a fangame. We can't change or add huge things like that it the immediate past of the Chrono eras without it being hard to accept for the players (and one of the developer, ehe).
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Well, its existance as super-armour isn't my field - that was ZeaLitY's idea - but I'll still stand with its name being okay to the prehistoric era. Internally to the Chrono series, it's just a name. Nemean. It could be the name of a tribe, even... after all, we do have Iokans and Larubans. Or maybe its Ayla's name for lion. There are manifold possibilities internal to the game. Unless you take my real-world crossover theories into account which merges our history from 3000BC - 300AD into the Chrono world (which we are definitely not doing), Greece does not exist at all in any form. Thus, any allusion, regardless of the time, is out of place, as it's referring to something that is for all purposes extra-dimensional. Nemean, as it has no meaning in the Chrono context, is not out of place in Prehistoric times any more than any other name would be, any more than Ayla, or Azala, Ioka, or Laruba. The power of the allusion is the connotation it has, the sublevel to its meaning, which is seperate from its absolute meaning in the Chrono world. It is not the hide of the Nemean lion as it would be to the Greeks. But its association with that puts it on par, and adds depth. That's the use of allusion. As such, you can't really say it is out of place temporally, as 'Nemean' at this point HAS no place in the Chrono world. It only has a place in our world and, while it does indeed point to that, it merely does so in format, ie. this, too, is an impervious hide. It is not THE Nemean hide, but is of the universal archetype of 'Nemean' hide. Sort of like a chair. The chair I am sitting in, and the one you are sitting in, are not the same. Both, however, point back to the concept of chair, so if I say 'chair', you know exactly what I'm talking about, even if you've never seen the particular one I'm talking about. You might not know the exact look of it, but certain basic similarities exist (ie. it is for sitting) that are common to all chairs. It's the same thing with this. The item is not out of place because it is not the same thing as the Greek hide. It does, however, have the same basic similarities that point back to that universal idea of 'Nemean hide' (ie. impervious). I guess you could say 'it is a hide of impervious fashion' or, in other words, Nemean. Neman connotes that to us, and that's what an allusion works off of. Think about it, if we were to say there was a human tribe called the Nemeans in prehistory, or if we were to say Nemea is Ayla's name for 'lion', that would then reconcile it... but nonetheless, the allusion would remain, because its truth does not lie in it itself, but what it points to. In the same way, it cannot be critizised because innaccuracy in this case is a moot point. Of course, Aristotle would hate me for saying this - you're giving me an Aristotilian argument for literature, I think - but I'm countering with a more Platonic viewpoint. Make sense?
The thing also about what ZeaLitY did with the superarmour.... I don't think it's neccessarially bad. Games make use of contrivances all the time, especially games like CT. I don't think we should be shooting for literal accuracy in a thing like this. Thematic accuracy, perhaps, but bending technicalities was some of the charm in Trigger, I think. The End of Time? How the heck can they be walking around then? Doesn't really make sense logically, but doesn't matter to the point, anyway.
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There's an easy fix for Ayla and Crono. We don't have armor slots to spare, but we have key items. Ayla could simply pick up the
"Lion Hide"
"Lion Fur"
And explain that she and Kino both as teens killed a mighty lion which nearly killed them. For good luck, they placed the hide within buried rocks on Singing Mountain. Ayla finds them for nostalgic purposes, because on that day, she affirmed her strength. Glenn suggests they make something out of them, and they take them to Chronopolis. We can even have Melchior note that he's not sure how we'd apply Rainbow stuff, and ask them to visit Yaluk, who explains that blending it with certain space-age materials can ingrain it into a fine, flexible "skin". Of course, this scene is entirely superlative and we can have Melchior figure it out by himself.
Crono can do something similar. He takes the
"TatteredGi"
"PatrusBand"
to Melchior, who has the scene (or doesn't if Ayla's armor was acquired first) and processes the Rainbow Shell. Still, Crono is sort of a plate armor guy if we want to go that route. The results are the JeetKuneDo and the Lee Band.
Magus is another problem...ah, I wish I could give him a reason to show up and threaten his former self...have to think about it. Doesn't help that I've been doing homework the last four hours.
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Aw, come on! This naming stuff, next to that thing with the Furies, is pretty well my only input in the project. And I don't see a problem here. I'd prefer to keep it NemeanHide, but more than that I'd REALLY want to keep the other two, the Lee Band and the JuKunDo or whatever it's called. Anachronisms be damned. Most every fantasy work out there does things like this. If this were historical fiction, I'd admit it... but even there, often, things are changed! Heck, you seen the trailer for Frank Miller's 300? Bloody war-rhinos. As a Classicst, I can tell you that, technically, that stuff is flawed. Having been at friggn' Thermopylae myself, I can say it looks nothing like what it appears as in the movie. The style is wrong. And a hundred other technicalities and anachronisms. I've heard they merged in some eastern fighting styles into the Spartan fighting to make them look badass. The truth? They didn't train for some sort of overpowering martial skill. They did strength training and dicipline - they didn't even practise swordplay or handling of spears. But do I really care? No. I'm expecting the movie to be brilliant as an artistic piece. That's an important distinction, knowing when to be technical and when not to be. Often, it's okay to break the rules, so long as you KNOW the rules. A poet doesn't have to obey the laws of grammar, but really should know them to know how to break them for the best effect. Things don't have to be accurate in art, so long as they're not accurate with INTENT. That's the problem with Xenosaga. The impression it left me with is that the writers didn't have the first clue about the sources of their allusions. They weren't clever. The surface story - the plot - it was good, but the depth was second-rate. I wonder if they improved on that in the succeeding games... anyway, point is, I don't think this is any sort of fatal or even grievous error, nor even an error at all.
If you really want to be techincal about things, you can call into account many things in Trigger that are readily strange to those that know them, even as this might be to those that know mythology. For example, Meso Mail. Mail?! In prehistoric times? That's a Celtic invention, probably about... 400BC I'm guessing? Mail in no way should be that early. Yet there it is. To anyone that knows a bit about military history, it's glaring.
Here, we know what we're doing. We've not just looked through a list of mythological names and picked one to suit our fancy. Every time you've asked me for a name, have I just picked random names? No. I gave you Celtic women names for Cedric's wife to keep the feeling in line, and chose names whose meanings were in line with the story. When you asked me for ultimate armour for Lucca, I picked the name of one of the most famous heroines in Greek mythology. Even Khrusaor wasn't random. I was looking through the lists of Hesiod's Theogony, at the monsters who were born. The giant with a gilded sword struck me as fitting to be connected with Zeal, which is why I suggested it.
The thing is, I do my research for these things. More so than most. For example, I use the term 'adamant' as a material in some of my other wriitng. But I've not like some derivative fantasy writer just taken a name. I know what it is, what it truly is. How many can say that, of those who use the term? Watching the Xmen movies (those movies are all I know about comics) I see them use the term adamant. Yeah, I'm sure they got it from the mythically hard substance... but, that's not all there is to it. And people don't know that. They don't know it means 'untameable', and in fact means 'steel'. That's all. And that's why I use it as a synonymn for steel (and I'm probably unique in that.) That's how I do things. I layer my allusions and, though they might not work at all points, rarely is a name 'just a name.' So you've got to trust me, Nemean isn't out of place. If Chrono'99 really is that worried about it, I'd say mask it by making it a tribal or creature name. However, I think it would be silly to make it simply 'Lion Skin'... that is too anti-climatic. The players will expect something interesting, and a simple 'lion' is boring. The helmet pushes the line, and only survives in my mind because of its assocciation with the skin, and thus the whole panoply of Herakles.
Really, I think I'm justified in saying to keep it. If everything were correct chronologically, it would make for a very boring game.
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They do get kept; I'm just proposing that they are found as worse items then upgraded by Melchior to put them on logical par with the other ones.
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I'm sorry to insist, but I really think the name Nemean doesn't fit in the prehistoric era. Yes, "Nemea" only exists in the real world, but by inserting the name in the series' Prehistory we are hellenizing the very roots of the Chrono world, whether directly or not. A denaturation of the Chrono world, I think that's one of the few dangers that Crimson Echoes really risks, much more than slow development or ROM corruption. During the project history, there used to be risks of the game atmosphere leaning too much towards hardcore science fiction, Star Wars, Xenogears, Final Fantasy VII or X... Let's be careful and not make it lean too much towards the Greek world now. The other Greek references do fit well in their locations, but this one in Prehistory stands rather too much. Azala, Ioka, and Laruba don't mean anything special for the player, thus the effect is that these names sound distant, primitive, indeed prehistoric. On the other hand, Nemean sounds Greek and is Greek, not for people within the Chrono world, but for the players at least. This immediately takes out the era's universality and gives it a cultural flavor which directly correspond to an existing culture of the real world. Nemean could be a synonym for "impervious" or other similar adjectives, but it would still blantantly be a Greek term in the middle of a universal, non Greek-centered, "non-aligned" prehistoric era. The Meso Mail is not an example of the era's non-universalness, it's actually one of the few bad Woolseyism, since the item was called and simply was a Tricera Plate (http://www.chronocompendium.com/Term/Meso_Mail.html) in the original version. A triceratops plate is not culture-specific contrary to Nemean Hide.
It's hard to rely only on the connotations of the name "Nemean Hide", because its sound, its "flavor" always remains, and its origin is part of the connotations anyhow. I'll pick my Zhuangzi example again: most connotations of this name perfectly fits in the Kingdom of Zeal. Zhuangzi was a great philosopher who lived in a period of intellectual expansion, and who was deeply interested in the notions of dreams, reality, illusions, etc. This is totally not out of place for a Zealian to correspond to this. Doreen even directly quotes one of his sayings. Despite all this, in the end "Zhuangzi" is still a name that is definitely Chinese for the player (not for the Zealians, but certainly for the player) and it just doesn't fit well among all the Middle-Eastern names of the Kingdom of Zeal. Granted, I took an extreme with this Chinese name, but the issue is still relatively the same for Prehistory because that era is the most universal stuff ever seen in Chrono. It's the primeval era, the universal Motherland which existed before more specific and regional cultures were born. Thus we can't hardly have a specific term in it like Nemean without automatically removing this primeval/universal atmosphere.
As I said, we can imagine simple fixes, like making the hide an ordinary one instead, that Melchior upgrades. The initial situation is a bit redundant with the panther attack that Serge suffered though. Serge didn't kill the beast and its hide was never used, but there are still small, non-meaniningful-yet-strange similarities. But the main question is, what was so special about that hide in the first place compared to the other pieces of equipment found throughout the game (a hide which rot under the ground for years, moreover)?
With Zeality's latest suggestion, I agree that Crono's equipment is nicely fixed though. We could have the father's equipment be recoverable after some point in the game (not right before Melchior upgrades it though, that would be too suspicious and coincidental). Its upgrade would be justified by the fact that Melchior could really upgrade anything and come up with the same ultimate protection in the end anyway, and so the father's equipments are choosen for sentimental values. This doesn't apply to Ayla, because a lion skin buried in volcanic grounds for a dozen of years is hardly a good material for Melchior to work with...
In some aspects, I believe the hide could fit better if the party had to hunt the creature themselves and directly. This would be redundant with Khrusaor though... We could merge both situations and have this creature be Khrusaor, but it wouldn't fit without heavy alterations since Khrusaor isn't a feline (I'm not sure I'm up to date with this side-quest, but he isn't a feline, right?).
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Yeah, and the party would be approaching ** to kill that beast anyhow...
Well, we already have Magus visiting and talking to Janus, so perhaps him challenging his older self is too over the top and redundant. I'm going to give it some thought and try to come up with another scenario. I thought about sending him to 302 A.D. to a serious conflict between Guardia and a few magic using Mystics, in which the old knight would have been present. Magus would have known about the presence of a legendary item in the Mystics hands that was destroyed there. Still, this is kind of inventing history for convenience. For if this was true, why couldn't the party go to 15000 B.C. to find some other legendary armor that existed only then? Or farther back? So I need to keep thinking.
Here's an idea: Ayla wears Dreamstone.
Anyhow, I implore you guys to try and think up ideas for Magus and Ayla too, because I'm going to be pretty busy for a while...and getting the Zeal part of the Retranslation added to the script also takes precedence when I do have some free time.
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Chrono'99, I agree that it might be good to have them hunt the lion, but I still stand by the name, and will call to me the very things you said: originally, Tricera Plate. That is itself as Greek as Nemean! It means 'three horn'. Just like 'Nemean' comes from Nemos, which is a woodland (thus the wooded region of Nemea.) Honestly, I don't think the names sounds particularly Greek. A kh like in Khrusaor, an x, ph, things like that, and especially a y, are representative of Greek names. Nemea doesn't have the same sort of obvious connection. Woud I not know it, I wouldn't be able to neccessarially peg it as Greek, and I'm better than most at figuring out if a word has a Greek root (I've got a fondness and affinity for etymology, and love perusing the Liddel and Scott Greek Lexicon... that's where I found out what Nemean means.) I admit to being phil-Hellenic, and favouring it, but generally I'm not letting that influence my decisions here - I honestly don't think it sounds out of place. For example, when ZeaLitY had Latin words for a spell, I mentioned what Greek would be, but got him to rather ask Legend for the Hebrew.
The thing is, I've got a good language sense, and I don't see Nemean as sounding particularly Greek. Actually, it sounds more... Latin, because, well, that's the Latin versoin of it. In truth, it doesn't sound Greek at all. Nemeios... that's Greek. The very 'ea' in Nemean is a Latin (thence English) version. It's like Achilles. Not at all Greek in sound. Akhilleus sounds Greek, but the way we say the 'ees' at the end of Achilles couldn't quite be done in Greek. 'ho Nemeios lay-own' ... phonetically, that's how you say Nemean Lion in Greek. Even the 'ee-en' on Nemean is wholly English. Some words due retain a bit of the Greek sound, despite a greatly changed pronunciation. Aeschylus sounds Greek, even though it is far removed from the true 'Ai-skh-u-ous' (that lone u is like a german umlaudt... can't quite say it in English.) But Nemean is too generic to be readily identifiable.
I must ask, for example, does not the Indo-European Janus (pronounced ee-ah-nus), a very allusive name, stand out of place in Zeal? Nemean, I maintain, is no worse than the name Janus. If you take the anglisized Jay-nus, it fits better, even as Nemean does. But ee-ah-nuss is out of place with Kajar and Enhasa as Nemeios would be with Ioka. So that's my defence. Just like Belthesar, Melchior, Janus, and the rest didn't take us out of the world, neither does this. And trust me on this, I'm a writer that makes a heck of a lot of uses of allusive names, and as a fantasy writer I'm better than 99% at being careful and consistant with names and their feel. This won't be a problem. And interestingly, I chose Nemean because it DOES sound primitive. Anyway, I really fail to see how Janus is not out of place, but Nemean would be. Really, if THAT didn't draw people out of the 'CT world', then neither will this... and in some ways, such uses and allusions to myth are a hallmark of the Chrono world. Only, unlike FF and the like, they tend to be more pertinant than mere names. That was one of the things I liked best - the allusions that seemed for once fitting. Oh, and let's not forget, the Fates of CC. Clotho, Atropos, and Lachesis. Direct, absolutely direct, allusion to the three Fates. I never quite got what they're doing there, yet CC does it. Seriously, I don't think this all is a concern.
By the way, amidst all my ranting... what WOULD you suggestion be for a name?
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Well, it's a question of meaning, not of etymology. The word "Tricera" in Tricera Plate comes from the Greek, but there were no Triceratops in Greece; this piece of armor makes us think much more about the dinosaur species than something Greek. On the other hand, "Nemean" by definition refers either to the Greek wood or the Greek mythical lion of that wood. I do realize that my Zeal example was not a good one, as Janus (and Dalton) are used among other names corresponding to other cultures... My main point however was that Prehistory is a truely virgin, neutral ground in the Chrono series, nothing in it corresponds to an identifiable culture in the real world. Janus and Dalton can fit in Zeal, and the Moirae can fit in the futuristic Chronopolis, but none of them would have fitted in the Prehistoric era as they are culture-specific and this era is not. It would have altered the sense of universal Motherland central to that period. I feel that putting a NemeanHide in this neutral Prehistory would be like implying that this era is Greek (Greek-inspired, I mean), and consequently that all the historical civilizations on the Chrono planet have their origin in a primordial Greek-like mother civilization. I mean, the Americans raised their flag on the Moon, and here, we are in my opinion, raising a Western "flag" in Prehistory... The comparison might seem a little disturbing or disproportionate, but I do not think it's really that far from the truth.
...but of course, I realize that the following will close the debate:
By the way, amidst all my ranting... what WOULD you suggestion be for a name?
In the end, I don't have a better name to suggest. It doesn't reduce my argumentation, but it does prevent us from reaching a solution... What comes to my mind is some sort of clothing elementally charged with Sun Stone energy... SolarMantle, or something. Not that great is it? So, I still stand seriously by my position, but I'll let "NemeanHide" be now since that's still the best name we have for the Ayla stuff, despite the strong eurocentric connotation. That is, except if someone later finds a name which is better and less culturally oriented.
~
Anyway, there may be a problem with the CyrusPlate. People in the Kingdom of Guardia, including the King, didn't know Cyrus' whereabouts in 600 A.D., they didn't know he was dead. So it's most probable that Glenn buried Cyrus with his equipments as he couldn't have tell the King and gave them to him. It might be hard to recover these in CT:CE, except if Glenn would dig up his friend's tomb...
And, er... I don't want to "destroy" this topic or anything but... is this ultimate equipment idea really interesting to begin with, in terms of gameplay? I'm not sure anymore... CT didn't have ultimate equipments unique to each character; there was no single ultimate armor but several ones which all had different pros and cons. Moon Armor for instance was less resistant than PrismMail or whatever, but gave a whopping Mag.Def. +10. Nova Armor had a status protection. I think this is also the case in CC (perhaps to a smaller extent). Having only one single ultimate armor and one single ultimate helmet for each character may reduces flexibility and strategy. Should we have non character-specific ultimate equipments instead? Most of the ultimate equipments proposed in this topic can remain, but they would just be equipable by everybody (or by "males" or "females") and may not be "ultimate". We could still have some character-specific equipments too, probably for Ayla, Robo, and Magus, since their anatomy and style are the most different from the other characters'.
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We ended up with enough stuff for ultimate armor since Chrono Trigger was sort of wasteful. There was some extra low-end armor and then all the elemental vests. I suppose we should bring in CyberSarkany to weigh in...
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Regarding the CyrusPlate, perhaps it would be a good time to tell everyone that Cyrus was killed? Glenn is finally ready to admit the truth to the people of Guardia and goes the goes to the grave and tells the ghost of Cyrus that he's finally strong enough, mentally and physically to defeat the Time Devourer. Cyrus is proud of his friend in admiting the truth finally and now his soul can rest in piece for all enternity. When the ghost disappears, Glenn finds the CyrusPlate on top of the grave.
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If there are armours left, I would throw follwing idea in:
Don't make one ultimate, like status protection+highest def., instead do more, yet semi-ultimate, armours, like:
- high def
- medium def + status protection
- Medium def + element absorb
- low def + element absorb + status protection
Combined with various Helm and accesoires it is far more tactical than best armour + best helm. CT had at least haste helm + nova & prism helm + Moon for the males and prims helm + Prism mail(or whatever it was called). The player would need to equip the party after his own style of playing and the enemies he will encounter, not only use the best stuff and have it easy.
This doesn't have to be for every char, like some stuff is for a certain char(or gender) only.
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Well, it's a question of meaning, not of etymology. The word "Tricera" in Tricera Plate comes from the Greek, but there were no Triceratops in Greece; this piece of armor makes us think much more about the dinosaur species than something Greek. On the other hand, "Nemean" by definition refers either to the Greek wood or the Greek mythical lion of that wood. I do realize that my Zeal example was not a good one, as Janus (and Dalton) are used among other names corresponding to other cultures... My main point however was that Prehistory is a truely virgin, neutral ground in the Chrono series, nothing in it corresponds to an identifiable culture in the real world. Janus and Dalton can fit in Zeal, and the Moirae can fit in the futuristic Chronopolis, but none of them would have fitted in the Prehistoric era as they are culture-specific and this era is not. It would have altered the sense of universal Motherland central to that period. I feel that putting a NemeanHide in this neutral Prehistory would be like implying that this era is Greek (Greek-inspired, I mean), and consequently that all the historical civilizations on the Chrono planet have their origin in a primordial Greek-like mother civilization. I mean, the Americans raised their flag on the Moon, and here, we are in my opinion, raising a Western "flag" in Prehistory... The comparison might seem a little disturbing or disproportionate, but I do not think it's really that far from the truth.
...but of course, I realize that the following will close the debate:
Hmmm... unfortuately, now you're starting to make sense. Okay, how about we call it ForestLion or something like that? That way they can hunt it, too. And it IS non-descript. Also, the hunt can be treated in the typical way you see with certain beasts (and in this I'm thinking back to Greek... again): the beast has been killing people, so they ask a band (in this case, THE band) of heroes to help. So they go on the lion hunt, and kill the thing. Ayla gets the ForestLion and the LionHead, and that's that. Better?
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I think this is a good solution, though the difficulty in practice may be to create a lion sprite... The "Beast" monster looks the most like a lion, but his attack animations don't correspond very well as the monster charges with its head like a bull instead of using its claws in a feline way.
Well, I think I'll have to inspect the Beast spriteset to see if we can convert it decently (I'm afraid this will be difficult). If the lion monster is possible, here's my idea to wrap up this hide stuff. The party kills the Forest Lion and gains a Forest Lion and a Lion Head: two decent equipments, though not exceptional. Later, Melchior can upgrade the 2 pieces of equipment with Sun Stone energy, to create the much more resistant StellarLeo and Lion Crown. This way, the allusion is kept and even expanded a bit (the Nemean lion was turned into a constellation after its death, wasn't it?), but the cultural bias is lessened since we're not naming the lion explicitely; it could pass as a reference to a universal motif rather than the specifically Greek legend.
If we can't make a lion sprite, then the party simply recovers the buried lion hide as in Zeality's idea. The party and Ayla are surprised that it's still in good condition - in excellent condition actually. We'll imply that the local piece of ground is really a Power Spot (like Divine Dragon Falls and the Sun Keep), and that it's why the hide and head buried there for years became exceptionally resistant. In this scenario, Melchior doesn't have to intervene, so we need only two names: Forest Lion / Lion Head, or StellarLeo / Lion Crown, or maybe StellarLeo / Lion Head?
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Regarding the CyrusPlate, perhaps it would be a good time to tell everyone that Cyrus was killed? Glenn is finally ready to admit the truth to the people of Guardia and goes the goes to the grave and tells the ghost of Cyrus that he's finally strong enough, mentally and physically to defeat the Time Devourer. Cyrus is proud of his friend in admiting the truth finally and now his soul can rest in piece for all enternity. When the ghost disappears, Glenn finds the CyrusPlate on top of the grave.
Well it's sure enough that Glenn told the King at the end of CT and people are aware of it in CE. The weird detail was if Glenn had to dig up Cyrus' tomb to get the armor... but your idea about a final consultation with Cyrus' spirit solves the problem.
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A suggestion for the ultimate armor created by Melchior from the Dreamweave:
The ArayaShiki.
This refers to a Buddhic notion, the store consciousness (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Store_consciousness) ("Alayavijnana" in Sanskrit, "Araya-shiki" in Japanese). According to some Buddhic schools, there are 8 senses: the 5 physical senses, the sense of ideas, the sense of self-awareness, and the 8th one, the store consciousness. In a nutshell, this sense is the collection of all the sensations, ideas, and emotions ("seeds"), which together constitute the universe as one perceives it. It keeps one's impressions of the past and influences one's actions and thoughts. After death, the 7 first senses cease to exist, but the 8th one remains and carries on to the next reincarnation.
So, yeah, that's quite profound. That's exactly what we need though: something "more than human", truely transcendental. This is in my opinion more daunting than Time Shell. Also, as always with Buddhic concepts, a lot of interpretations are possible, whether they're pertinent or crazy. This 8th sense might have some similarities with Schala's Sea of Dreams for instance, if dreams are born there and will eventually return to it (of course, we don't have to characterize the armor with these abstract properties or mention these ramblings)... There are even some (more coincidental) ties with Melchior: the store consciousness contains metaphorical "seeds", and Melchior did create the actual Seed of Life/Hope. The equipments that Melchior forges even have a phonetical motif this way: Ara Dei, ArayaShiki (yeah, this is totally tangential, but it's still nice-sounding to the ear, no?).
This notion is not very obscure, at least in Japan. It was used in the manga Saint Seiya for example, in which mastering this Arayashiki sense is the only mean for the characters to enter the realm of the dead without... dying first.
Anyway, I think this Buddhic allusion with a Japanese name would be a welcome addition to counterbalance the mass of Classical references.
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My final final is in an hour and thirty minutes. So we are keeping ultimate armor? I guess the only factors that matter are extra scenes versus extra armor possibilities. With my current setup, there are like two armors per chapter; the old one from last chapter, and the new one available in a dungeon. In the next chapter, the new one becomes a bit old and maybe can be sold in shops, while yet another is introduced. Chrono Trigger had multiple armors per chapter, however. Of course, CT didn't have that many more, it was moreover just the four elemental vests.
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Looking back, I'm feeling more and more unconfortable with the setup... Some armors appear in two different and distant eras, and some anachronisms are hard not to notice (Prometheus Buster in shops from 602 AD?). I know this kind of things happened in CT too, but still, I feel like we could be more "rigorous" about this, especially as our names are more technical than the CT ones (XocoltSuit sounds so much like something from the Reptite timeline that it's strange to see it sold in 602 AD too).
Actually, I'm afraid we started the equipment topic the wrong way; we should probably have started with the story placement planning first and only then have picked up names accordingly. Of course, I realize this whole story placement setup must have been difficult to come up with to begin with, so personally I'm not sure how I would correct it (this would require fixing it and probably having to change some names, all at the same time... like juggling with several balls at the same time).
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Yeah, that's a problem. We can always switch up names. I think it'll go through more revisions anyway when Maelstrom / Cyber / whoever else start working on the actual difficulty curve of the game after the events / locations are finished.
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Here's some suggestions for the ultimate armors. According to the CT Editor Companion, two elemental protections + status protection + stat bonuses is the most one armor can have. So:
Highest def - ArayaShiki
High def, status protection - PrismGuard
Medium def, Lightning/Shadow protection - Vitruvian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitruvian_Man)
Very low def, Fire/Water protection, status protection: Stunt Suit
Then somewhere in between these ultimate armors, the ultimate specific armors:
Female - Camilline
Robo - ZerothGear (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Laws_of_Robotics#Zeroth_Law_added)
Ayla - ForestLion / Lion Head and or (?) StellaLion (or SolarLion?) / Lion Crown
Magus - CrimseHood / GoldenMask
I think JeetKuneDo should be a normal armor and Funnel X17 a normal Robo-specific helmet. The Lee Band could be an accessory since the Bandanna is one. I'd remove the other stuff altogether (Scythian, Electra, Madscience, CyrusPlate and Oneiros), because I believe it's quite apparent that we came up with these names only because we needed to "fill the slots". In the case of the CyrusPlate, this is because Glenn has already so much screentime and importance in the game that it's not necessary; moreover, he'd be the only character to have a complete set totally unique to himself with this equipments: upgraded Masamune, Oneiros, CyrusPlate, and Hero Medal (even Magus and Ayla have no specific accessory, at least).
Of course, I don't want to coerce anything, so everybody feel free to comment, critic, oppose, veto, etc.
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Damn, and the quest to get the Cyrusplate was a touching one too. :(
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He made some touching farewell in CT already. I think it would be kind of "too easy" to make him reappear and say something like "hello Glenn, that was a joke: I'm still hanging around here as a ghost actually! So how's it going since last time?". Also, Cyrus' armor has no logical reason to be more useful and resistant than what the party can already have (considering Magus easily defeated him 10 years before CT).
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It's good to be getting some harsh criticsm on these. That always bodes well.
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He made some touching farewell in CT already. I think it would be kind of "too easy" to make him reappear and say something like "hello Glenn, that was a joke: I'm still hanging around here as a ghost actually! So how's it going since last time?". Also, Cyrus' armor has no logical reason to be more useful and resistant than what the party can already have (considering Magus easily defeated him 10 years before CT).
Ah but the Cyrus armor is enhanced by Cyrus's willpower and tenacity. Being a spirit he was able to imbue the armor with durability.
Also the "black box" clause what's the difference between a kali blade and a shiva blade, time. So if you receive the Cyrus plate in 1999AD there is no reason to not believe the armor would be more powerful.
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There would still be the Glenn favoritism issue. He just has so much dialogues, scenes, and with this he'd have a unique equipment set. There would also still be the problem of how to obtain the armor: Cyrus' ghost made his final farewells in CT in a sidequest, so making his ghost return again in another sidequest in this sequel would result in the very same scene, albeit recycled with an armor instead of the Masamune II. And without this ghost, the other way to get the armor would be to dig up his tomb... an act which doesn't fit Glenn's sense of honor, in my opinion.
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There would still be the Glenn favoritism issue. He just has so much dialogues, scenes, and with this he'd have a unique equipment set. There would also still be the problem of how to obtain the armor: Cyrus' ghost made his final farewells in CT in a sidequest, so making his ghost return again in another sidequest in this sequel would result in the very same scene, albeit recycled with an armor instead of the Masamune II. And without this ghost, the other way to get the armor would be to dig up his tomb... an act which doesn't fit Glenn's sense of honor, in my opinion.
What if Glenn used the TDC to speak with Cyrus instead? That would make it much different from the original Cyrus speech. We could make Cyrus believe it was a dream. The two could talk about the future. Glenn could tell him to not go to Denderino Mountain because he would die, but Cyrus says that if Fate says he is to die, then he must face Fate head on. Suddenly, they hear younger Glenn coming so our Glenn decides to leave. Cyrus could give him an acessory instead, so everyone could use it. Call it the MiracleBand or something. There, no more Glenn favortism. Now it's just another character sidequest.
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Well another idea (if the Cyrus idea were dropped)
would be to have him win his ultimate equipment from boss fights
we could have Glenn win "Serran Mantle" from a fight with Serran a helmet called the "Grand Lion" won from the coliseum. The possibilities were endless, we could even have the best equipment boss fights be in the Glenn optional quest towards the end of the game.
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After a few years it is time to put these in! I'm out for the weekend but something someone can do that would help tremendously is out the weapons in order of damage magnitude like level one weapons followed by the characters. Also for each weapon out whether it should be in a shop or a treasure chest or other?
Zeality you mentioned a couple
Pages back you had made a wiki page I don't suppose that is backed up somewhere? If so can you move it to ce/items?
Jp
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Zeality uploaded a backup of the CE miniwiki over in the plot thread.
Some of the later chapters might not fit due to plot changes.
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Ok the plot might not be right but the weapons and armor should be the same pretty much so we can Port that over. Sorry about bad grammer in my previous post my phone picks out instead of put.
Jp
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Ok the plot might not be right but the weapons and armor should be the same pretty much so we can Port that over. Sorry about bad grammer in my previous post my phone picks out instead of put.
Jp
Say, what phone are you using?
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Blackberry pearl I don't like touching my screen so iphone is not for me I love my blackberry though.
Jp