Chrono Compendium
Enhasa Halls - Chrono Series Analysis => History, Locations, and Artifacts => Topic started by: ZeaLitY on January 07, 2006, 11:51:12 pm
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I had long forgotten about a certain passage in Radical Dreamers:
Before long, the jet black surface of the mirror is filled with what looks like
Regionna.
It then goes on to describe Lucca's orphanage burning. Are we to assume that Lucca's little island was called Regionna? And what of Regiorra? Or did she move?
I find it frustrating that there's so little evidence concerning where these events take place.
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I had long forgotten about a certain passage in Radical Dreamers:
Before long, the jet black surface of the mirror is filled with what looks like
Regionna.
It then goes on to describe Lucca's orphanage burning. Are we to assume that Lucca's little island was called Regionna? And what of Regiorra? Or did she move?
I find it frustrating that there's so little evidence concerning where these events take place.
They are probably just random towns on the Zenan mainland.
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It's weird, since the game implies that Porre has taken over, and is now in the prototype El Nido surrounding. In the begining of the game where you see the island from a birds eye view, You can see Viper Manor, The Shadow Forest and a Termina like place. But ofcourse, these places have different names.. Grezenbul sounds like Termina to me.
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Zaperking has a point. Since RD is the proto-CC, some of these may not be cities on the Zenan mainland at all. I guess it depends on how much faith one puts on the size of the overworld maps. I'm always of the anti-purist perspective of an entire world the size of ours, and likely in overall geography (with the exception of Zenan) with probably a 1000AD population of at least 100 million (well, simply for genetic diversity, I think that is a neccessity - the entire population of CT and CC combined would hardly total enough to make for a single tribe.) That being said, there would be one hundred thousand settlements or so at the time, scattered around the world. These places could be anywhere, as ZeaLitY said a frustrating proposition. However, they are in all likelihood either on Zenan, or El Nido. Kid does not have the means, nor the inclination, I do not think, for far travelling. She only seeks El Nido to hunt Lynx, as best I can recall. She would remain in the old country for the rest of the time, and this gives the likely location to either, as Graylensman has said, Zenan, or El Nido as Zaperking said. I guess that's all I can do: a paragraph to come to an agreement, as there is nothing that can work contrary to what either has said, so far as I know.
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Kid does not have the means, nor the inclination, I do not think, for far travelling. She only seeks El Nido to hunt Lynx, as best I can recall. She would remain in the old country for the rest of the time, and this gives the likely location to either, as Graylensman has said, Zenan, or El Nido as Zaperking said.
Don't forget that Kid is travelling with Magil. If they needed to cross the ocean, I'm sure they could gain passage on a ship.
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I had long forgotten about a certain passage in Radical Dreamers:
Before long, the jet black surface of the mirror is filled with what looks like
Regionna.
It then goes on to describe Lucca's orphanage burning. Are we to assume that Lucca's little island was called Regionna? And what of Regiorra? Or did she move?
I find it frustrating that there's so little evidence concerning where these events take place.
For some reason, the Square's official site for Chrono Cross (http://www.square-enix-usa.com/games/CC/characters.html) states that "orphaned as a child, Kid was raised in an orphanage in the Dragon Islands where her accent marked her as a foreigner". I don't know if it has any relevance to anything or if it's a mistake.
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Hang on, but that makes no sense because she's supposed to have been raised by Lucca since she was very young. Also, Lucca's orphanage, which just looking at the layout is clearly her old house from CT, is in Guardia!
I always assumed Kid picked up her Cockney (or is it australian?) accent from hanging around with theives after leaving the orphanage. Young children pick up and lose accents quickly. Even if she had a foreign accent, she'd soon lose it in an orphanage.
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That'd mean that Guardia, Truce, Medina etc. are classified as "the Dragon Islands". And where the hell did the accent come from. If it makes her a foreigner in Guardia, that'd mean that she somehow got a weird accent. But if she was raised in El Nido, then her accent is Guardian... I think it's more like she was raised in Guardia, and when she went to El Nido, she was marked as a foreigner.
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I have a theory based entirely on information in the Encyclopedia here. It says Viper Manor was unknowingly constructed on Zeal ruins. To me, that means look at where the Ocean Palace is on the map and find the closest relative position. It's the continent on which the city of Medina resides, near the south, where Melchior lives. Regionna could be the name of the continent. After all, it's widely accepted that the Zenan continent is called Zenan and not Truce, the city.
Maybe he just owns a little shack and that house you see on the CT world map is Viper Manor? Maybe that's a stretch. But think about it.
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I don't know that Zeal ruins would have fallen in one particular place, but it's possible... Even though in CT we thought of Zenan and Porre as continents, maybe they are more like islands as stated earlier, and smaller islands can be hidden throughout.
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Let's get this discussion rolling again. I want to pinpoint some of the locations that appear in Radical Dreamers.
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Gerzbuehle
The Acacia Dragoons. They were once an elite force serving General Viper, a powerful man who used to rule the western territory of Gerzbuehle.
Regiorra
During my stay in the remote town of Regiorra, I ended up running into a girl who later joined me, leading to the beginning of all this.
It's a few small envelopes. Opening them, we find a map of Regiorra, three copper coins, and other recently unsent mail.
Regionna
Lord Lynx, as he's formally known, is an aristocrat who governs the Regionna outlands.
Before long, the jet black surface of the mirror is filled with what looks like Regionna.
These are the only times that Gerzbuehle, Regiorra, and Regionna are mentioned in Radical Dreamers (Demiforce's translation, at least). So let's review.
- The Acacia Dragoons once ruled part of Gerzbuehle, specifically the western territory.
- Kid and Serge met in the remote town of Regiorra. There is nothing else to describe this place.
- Lord Lynx now governs Regionna. Since he now owns all that was once the Viper Clan's, we can assume that Regionna is part of Gerzbuehle (see bullet point #1).
- The Mirror of Whispers shows Lucca's orphanage within Regionna.
I'd also like to bring up this image: http://img.gamefaqs.net/screens/b/a/f/gfs_18926_1_4.jpg
It appears during the opening sequence, if you wait at the main menu. I'm assuming that is Viper Manor? If so, take notice of the bridge and water on the right side of the image. There are only two bridges in Chrono Trigger: Zenan Bridge, and the bridge leading to Lucca's house.
If my assumptions are correct, I would place Regionna on either side of Zenan Bridge. Perhaps where Dorino once stood? Of course, there are arguments to be had of others locations. In Chrono Cross, Lucca's house is the orphanage and showed no sign of having been moved. Maybe Regionna rests in Truce (though that's not really "west" of anywhere but ocean). And what of the Zeal ruins? Those could be anywhere...
Anyway, those are my two cents. I wonder if there are any differences regarding locations in the Japanese script.
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Those are the only references to those places in the Japanese version as well. Here are the equivalent quotes from the Japanese version.
Gerzbuehle
「以前、西のゲルズブーレを治めていた蛇骨大佐お抱えの、精鋭騎士団だ。
Regiorra:
それがこの辺境の街レジオーラで、ひょんなことから一人の少女と出会って、数多くの事件、冒険にまきこまれることになってしまった。
紙切れは辺境レジオーラの地図と、未使用の便せんだった。
Regionna:
ヤマネコ大君というのは、この辺境のレジオーナを支配する貴族で、キッドの宿敵である。
やがて、漆黒の鏡面に辺境レジオーナの風景が浮かびあがり、その上に次々と影が現れた。
Anyway, those are my two cents. I wonder if there are any differences regarding locations in the Japanese script.
Well, I think someone (utunnels?) said that the manor's only called “Viper Manor” in the Demiforce translation, and I can confirm that. I need to figure out if in the Japanese version the references to the times before Viper's death indicated that they occurred in the mansion the story takes place in.
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I have already checked the location names and found no extra informations.
But maybe you are right, I don't recall there's a place that mentions the manor is exactly the same one. At least not in the main storyline. Although in the "Caught between love and adventure" senario, Vera told Gil that Lynx adopted a girl from a foreign country.
But think about it, in Chrono Cross, the Viper Manor also located far east of Termina, so it is not impossible Viper also built his manor far from the city in RD.
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I have already checked the location names and found no extra informations.
But maybe you are right, I don't recall there's a place that mentions the manor is exactly the same one. At least not in the main storyline. Although in the "Caught between love and adventure" senario, Vera told Gil that Lynx adopted a girl from a foreign country.
But think about it, in Chrono Cross, the Viper Manor also located far east of Termina, so it is not impossible Viper also built his manor far from the city in RD.
It is also possible that Viper had multiple mansions, being that he was a seemingly wealthy leader.
This previously posted image: http://img.gamefaqs.net/screens/b/a/f/gfs_18926_1_4.jpg
Leads me to this area, http://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k99/eremes/vipermanor.png
for a few reasons. Noted by the red and green dots, there are two mountains which can be seen to be similar areas in the previous image. One being the cliff the on which protagonists stand, and the other being the obvious black mound behind the manor. The "bridge" likewise could in fact be a large pier, as we see in my image, near the base of the lower settlement, which could very well be the crescent shaped city in Kodokami's image, on the right.
Now, due to the off-scale proportions of the original CT map, we don't know how big those cities, piers, or generally any of the topological data is. They could represent country sized settlements, or could all be one small city. This also means that the exact arrangement of the city may differ slightly in reality from that of CT's overworld map. However, there are three basic settlements in both images, both including a larger crescent shaped one, and two smaller ones diagonally across from it. From this information, what we see in the RD image, could point to the manor being in two places on my image, enclosed by blue and magenta respectively. Being that there is a forest around the manor in RD, those are the two most likely places I can spot on the CT map of 1000AD.
On the names Regiorra and Regionna... I have seen many engrish iterations, and strikingly many of them are in native japanese situations... To explain, I have seen developer's documents that write notes in english, such as for instance, the name of a place. When a third party comes to look at these notes, it is easily mistaken that Burger King is in fact Bunger Kirg, or various other falsities. This new name is then transcribed in either english or japanese, as the reader saw it, or, in the case of poor english users, when they write it and mistake a letter.
メ and ナ; ソ and ン; or さ, ち, and き, are all easily mistaken for each other, much like b and d, or n and r, or rn and m. It's quite possible Regiorra and Regionna are the same place, simply written by two different people.
To better illustrate:
Writer A notes : "Regiorra" on paper in english characters, for whatever reason
Writer B reads this accidentally as : "Regiona"
thus even the kana レジオーナ and レジオーラ both come to exist.
What say you?
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Thanks Vehek and utunnels. So, Viper may have owned multiple mansions? :o
Satoh, I never considered that the "bridge" might be a pier. However, I can't see why Lynx (or Viper for that matter) would choose to live within Porre. For Viper, the Frozen Flame was passed down to him after Guardia fell. Sounds like he's protecting it? If so, makes no sense to protect it within the heart of Porre.
I thought about Regiorra and Regionna being the same place before. The only argument I have against it is that Serge states he met Kid in the "remote town" of Regiorra... And yet they infiltrate Lynx's manor in the same town? Perhaps it really was an error made early on in development, and as such the one town became two.
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Why couldn't he be in Porre? Do we have reason to believe that Porre would antagonize Viper directly?
Porre is considered a country as I recall... considering that fact, it is likely very large, and as I mentioned, the CT maps and actual landscapes may differ greatly in scale... Unless we are to believe that there really are only a handful of people living on the planet.
Another thing, about the "remote town of Regiorra," this phrase, depending on the original Japanese, could mean that the town is an outlying part of Porre. Or simply put: The town of Regiorra is somewhere on the edge of the civilized portion of the Porre territory. It is 'remote' in the sense that the coast is remote from the center of a continent. We also don't know where Serge is from initially as I recall, so he could be referencing his own origins, meaning, "Compared to my hometown, Regiorra is remote," or "Compared to the capital of Porre, Regiorra is remote."
Because the word 'remote' is so subjective, and can be even moreso in Japanese (which is a very subject-relative language), we can't say exactly what he means here.
By the same logic, if Viper was in Regiorra and that is the same place as Regionna, which is an outlying town of Porre, he would have some manner of buffer zone between himself and the major force of Porre. Military forces tend to be denser toward the capitals and strategic centers of countries, and not necessarily nonexistent, but slightly diminished in the outer "less important" portions of the country.
As I recall, Guardia was (before its fall) the largest territory in the world, yet it only has one small burg to its name. Thus the CT maps may not show us the entire country including every city and house (99% unlikely in fact) but may in fact represent the entire country as a single town; the quintessential Guardian town. Likewise, each group of houses could represent a town...(unlikely as there is only one mayor to each 'town,' and seems to be at least one for each as well).
In CT, Porre was never really important, so it could be that the Porre town we see is Regiorra, it despite the fact it is the only town we really see in Porre, it may still only be an outer town.
Small cities are better hiding places than large ones, due to the relative size of the law enforcement there, to cite real world examples... The US has greatly increasing gang activity in smaller, largely unheard of cities, than in the big cities everyone associates with gang violence. The reason is simple: Small towns aren't equipped to deal with them, and they can run amok.
For this reason, Viper could have chosen Regiorra as his 'in plain sight' hiding place for the Flame.
Two final notes on why he might have a mansion in Porre itself. First off, Vera assembles a strike force rather quickly to attack the manor, meaning that even if they were in an outlying city, there would have to be Porre soldiers/police/military police relatively nearby.
The second note is this: Why do we assume Viper wasn't a respected citizen of Porre? I can't seem to find any information as to why Porre and Viper would be at odds in Radical Dreamers. Perhaps in Chrono Cross, yes, but there is no outright evidence I can recall or find that states they were enemies. If the Acacia Dragoons were in fact a part of Porre to begin with, it would make sense that Viper would have a mansion there.
I also ask, do we know the Flame was 'passed' to him willingly? Perhaps he led an assault on Guardia himself and claimed it as part of his spoils. In the former case, it's not unlikely that as there was no stated tension between Porre and Guardia before The Fall, Viper could have been a loyal friend to Guardia, and thus was entrusted to its safekeeping, even knowing he couldn't prevent the seizure of the kingdom itself. How do you hide something from being discovered by your government when they search for it? You keep it with you, because why would they suspect you of having it when it should be in the vault?
I'm not stating that it is an obvious conclusion, or even a well founded one, but it is a logically plausible theory.
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So, Viper may have owned multiple mansions?
I just say possible, but no hints I've found.
As for Regionna and Regiorra, to be honest I didn't even noticed they were 2 names at first.
It is possible they just made a typo, unless it is a situation like Brazil and Brasilia (still 99.999% unlikely).
. The only argument I have against it is that Serge states he met Kid in the "remote town" of Regiorra
But consider some small nation/state, which has only 1 or 2 towns but a large area of untamed land. Perhaps the place was once taken from the Mystics, so population is small.
By taking another look at the topic, I spotted several mistakes.
西のゲルズブーレ means Gerzbuehle of the west, not west territory of Gerzbuehle. LOL I feel the translator sometimes messed with の too much. :wink: It is not always "of" in English.
Similarly, "remote town Regiorra" is better, not to be confused with a remote town of Regiorra.
And it keeps saying the frontier Regionna/Regiorra in the Japanese script, which is sometimes omitted in the translated version.
What is certain:
1. Regionna(if Regiorra is a typo) is a frontier/remote town/region (of what?).
2. Lynx is the ruler of Regionna.
3. Viper is the ruler of Gerzbuehle.
4. Gerzbuehle is a western region/country/state/town, whatever.
5. Whether Regionna and Gerzbuehle are part of a bigger kingdom, or whether one is part of another, it is not mentioned.
6. Since Regionna is a remote/frontier region, it is politically less important. That's why Serge feels strange Porre would notice this place.
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Thanks Vehek and utunnels. So, Viper may have owned multiple mansions? :o
Well, my idea was different. Let me tell it in story form.
...After much searching, Lynx had uncovered ruins of the lost magical kingdom. With the machines within the ruins, he could construct a great magical device. To conceal his future activities, he ordered the construction of a mansion above the site. After the construction of Lynx Manor, he continued his work. He knew he would need more, including the Frozen Flame, which was in the possession of General Viper. And so, all that false befriending of Viper and other events leading up to the game happened.
In even shorter form: Viper never owned the manor in the game. It was always Lynx's.
My idea has its flaws. The clock tower has fallen into disrepair. Riddel remembers the Radius figure being removed from the torture chamber. The Radius figure knows about the secret switch in the ballroom, and expects Riddel to know as well.
A lot of that is from the Demiforce translation though.
Analysis attempt based off machine translation
- The stuff about the gears and cogs isn't in there. It does mention that the equipment is dusty, and like the Demiforce translation, that it's no longer being used as a clock tower.
- No direct mention of remembering the event. It looks like it was originally the "check the torture chamber" suggestion.
- He simply gives the information about the secret switch. No explicit indication that he thinks they (his colleagues and/or Riddel) should already know it.
So the points I picked out might not be as bad as I thought. There are still oddities, such as the first one. Why would someone build a clock tower into a building and then stop using it only a few or so years later? Or maybe the descriptions and image of the ruins don't fit with my idea of there being any significance to the ruins in the present day.
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I like your story Vehek. Consider how the game was made, likely the author didn't have time to put all things together. To me Esmeld is the strongest hint that the manor is the same one, it is just too nautual to think he was an old guard of the manor. "Radius" knows too much about the secret passage -- but, since Viper and Lynx were friends, it is possible they once visited Lynx's little secret place. No wonder Lynx could set up a trap to kill Viper in the ruin like he did to the Dreamers.
"Radius" was described as a traitor, but no further information on what he did to his comrades. So we can only guess.
No direct mention of remembering the event. It looks like it was originally the "check the torture chamber" suggestion.
I double checked that section to find demiforce actaully did a good amount of job to make Riddel's story vivify.
Demiforce version:
"He is an Acacia Dragoon, is he not?" Magil asks.
"He was, before he spent countless days and nights locked up in the torture chamber, losing his mind as well as his identity in the process...
I remember the day they removed him from that dreadful room, beaten within an inch of his life..."
"The torture chamber?"
"Yes... a terrible room upstairs, where Lynx breaks down peoples' hearts and bodies..."
Riddel shivers, but quickly recomposes herself.
"Perhaps we may find a clue to his past there," says Magil. I'd hoped it wouldn't come to this...
What I've made out:
"Please help us."
Riddle turns back, lowers her head.
"...perhaps once taken back to the chamber of death, he can get his sanity back. Because he once lost his honor and faith there..."
"Chamber of Death, what's that?" asks Kid.
"It is a dreadful torture chamber which Lord Lynx uses to destroy both one's mind and body."
After mentioning that, Riddel shivers as if a gusty chilly wind is passing through.
"Flowing blood and tears, make everyone locked up in that room occupied by strong evil minds such as hatred and jealousy, only thing left is their desire of vengeance on the living."
"That room is living by eating suffering and terror of (living) humans."
"Humph. Such thing, I Kid-sama..."
"Can't forgive!"
Does this chamber mind you of the Masamune sword in Chrono Cross?
Radius:
I know I lost my sanity
because of that sword...
But I must admit, the sword
is not entirely to blame.
I was jealous of Garai...
I wanted to be the better
swordsman.
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We do know of at least one place where Zealan ruins are canonically known to exist: the Forest Ruins north of Medina. Those ruins also housed an underground vault in the prerelease version of Chrono Trigger: http://www.chronocompendium.com/Term/Sealed_Pyramid_(CTP).html Once the magical pyramid was removed by Crono, the site would simply appear to be a large stone slab; perfect for the beginnings of a foundation. Although the vault was removed from the final version of the game, it's reasonable to think that it might still exist and was discovered when construction of the manor began.
It may only be circumstantial, but it's also worth noting that Lynx in Radical Dreamers employs large numbers of goblins as guards; these could easily be recruited from Medina.
I'm of the opinion that Chrono Trigger's world maps should be taken as representative instead of literal, but look at this picture: http://img.gamefaqs.net/screens/b/a/f/gfs_18926_1_4.jpg from the perspective of this one: http://www.retroplayers.com.br/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/720px-Chrono_Trigger_1000_AD_Map.png assuming the heroes are looking at the manor from a cliff on the Heckran Cave mountain. The geography would roughly fit, especially considering artistic liberties were probably taken.
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Thanks; added to https://www.chronocompendium.com/Term/Regiorra_%28Location%29.html#Theories
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Thank you. Here's a picture to demonstrate what I meant. As I said, the geography is a rough fit, but the only direct contradiction I see is that the blue line in the Radical Dreamers picture should be looking down on land. Perhaps that didn't look dynamic enough and it was changed to water to make the scene more impressive.
Unfounded Speculation
The crenelated structure on the horizon is also a mystery. It could be a large dock on Medina's southern shore; possibly for the ferry Bandeau was going to establish. He mentioned that the ferry was going to run between Medina and Truce, which would seem to make Medina's western shore a more likely location to build a dock, but perhaps the plans were changed due to the fall of Guardia and the rise of Porre.
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Cool; got it added as well now. It seems too attractive to pass up as a concept.
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More evidence supporting that Regiorra and Regionna are the same: One of the interviews recently translated (https://www.chronocompendium.com/Forums/index.php?topic=10746) describes Lynx as ruling "the remote town of Regiorra"--the exact phrase used in Radical Dreamers for describing where Kid and Serge met. Before, Lynx was described as governing Regionna.
I'm pretty convinced it's just a typo and that the two locations are actually the same.