Chrono Compendium

Enhasa Halls - Chrono Series Analysis => History, Locations, and Artifacts => Topic started by: ZeaLitY on December 20, 2005, 10:51:00 pm

Title: The Ice Age: A scientific inconsistency?
Post by: ZeaLitY on December 20, 2005, 10:51:00 pm
Something isn't making clear sense to me as I round out the last few Events entries. Chrono Trigger suggests that the Ice Age Lavos caused was permanent; that the loss of foliage would disrupt the world enough to cause a drop in temperature.

   The burned out plains will slowly
   freeze, ushering in a long, cruel ice
   age.

I must admit, when I first played the game and arrived in 12000 B.C. soon after, I immediately concluded that the Ice Age had been raging for millions of years. While we can leave open the possibility that the Ice Ages were still cyclical and not permanent, we must ask what the game intended. After you read the next paragraph, the cyclical proposition of natural ice ages will seem attractive.

Anyway, judging from a permanent Ice Age point of view, early humans lived in caves and other shelters for 62000000 years unchanged. As Lord J Esq stated in his Essay Concerning Zeal, this is far too long for a species to go without adapting in some form or coming to prefer the colder temperatures. It seems scientifically inconsistent that the early humans, evolved from exposure to the sun and life on dry land, would remain static even while living as troglodytes and deprived from sunlight. I just can't reconcile this, or fathom how the rest of the animals of the world could survive on the outside. Did birds take shelter in caves as well, along with other mammals and reptilian species? A 65000000 year long Ice Age would have annihilated some populations. I can't fathom how anything could make it out of such a period unchanged.

Thus it seems attractive to think that Ice Ages were indeed cyclical, and that the one Lavos caused was merely the first in a long chain of freezes ushered in by his initial disruption. Still, is the game's explanation lax enough to allow this possibility?
Title: The Ice Age: A scientific inconsistency?
Post by: Burning Zeppelin on December 20, 2005, 11:43:51 pm
Humans can adapt back to warmer conditions, albeit 1000 years. Animals probably hid somewhere warm. I dunno.
Title: The Ice Age: A scientific inconsistency?
Post by: Sentenal on December 21, 2005, 12:08:55 am
Well, maybe I have a solution to this.  Just how long was Zeal around?  If it was around for alot of that time, then Man as a place where it is warm, so they wouldn't nessisarly adapt to the cold.
Title: The Ice Age: A scientific inconsistency?
Post by: ZeaLitY on December 21, 2005, 12:10:52 am
62 million years had to pass before they found the Frozen Flame.
Title: The Ice Age: A scientific inconsistency?
Post by: GrayLensman on December 21, 2005, 12:20:12 am
Quote from: ZeaLitY
62 million years had to pass before they found the Frozen Flame.


The Flames' evolution of man could have occured from 65e6 to 62e6 BC.  However, I agree with you about the cyclical ice ages.  There would have been an initial catatosphe which doomed the Reptites and then a long period of climactic instability finally broken by Lavos.  This would more accurately reflect the true natural history of the world.
Title: The Ice Age: A scientific inconsistency?
Post by: Mystik3eb on December 21, 2005, 12:22:09 am
Or the Ice Age didn't truly begin for many years. Yeah, the tribes people talked about a drop in wheather and seeing snow fall...but maybe they were just approaching winter?

Probably not likely, though. I'd have to agree with the cyclical theory.
Title: The Ice Age: A scientific inconsistency?
Post by: ZeaLitY on December 21, 2005, 12:43:01 am
Quote from: GrayLensman
Quote from: ZeaLitY
62 million years had to pass before they found the Frozen Flame.


The Flames' evolution of man could have occured from 65e6 to 62e6 BC.  However, I agree with you about the cyclical ice ages.  There would have been an initial catatosphe which doomed the Reptites and then a long period of climactic instability finally broken by Lavos.  This would more accurately reflect the true natural history of the world.


I suppose that quote in Chronopolis could be read to meant that the entire evolution of the human brain took three million years, and was not instant. Argh, I hate another of our chronological dates being turned to conjecture, just like 7600 B.C. was.

Well...let's see if we can steer it back with reasoning. How long would it take to create a few cities and exploit an innate magic ability to raise them into the air? Would it take more than a million years? If not, then we can still estimate the contact with the Flame as taking place around 3000000 B.C. The only problem would be if the new-brained humans simply sat on their laurels for a few million years before dreaming of Zeal. Still, it doesn't seem likely, as the distinction between magic-using and no-magic formed the basis of Zeal society -- the Enlightened Ones.
Title: The Ice Age: A scientific inconsistency?
Post by: Sentenal on December 21, 2005, 12:45:01 am
Well, I guess due to facts, we can write Azala off as making an incorrect prediction.
Title: The Ice Age: A scientific inconsistency?
Post by: GrayLensman on December 21, 2005, 12:55:09 am
Quote from: Sentenal
Well, I guess due to facts, we can write Azala off as making an incorrect prediction.


If the first ice age lasted 50 thousand years, Azala would still have been accurate.
Title: The Ice Age: A scientific inconsistency?
Post by: Radical_Dreamer on December 21, 2005, 01:18:42 am
Quote from: GrayLensman
Quote from: Sentenal
Well, I guess due to facts, we can write Azala off as making an incorrect prediction.


If the first ice age lasted 50 thousand years, Azala would still have been accurate.


If it would have been 100 years, she'd have been correct. Reptiles are woefully inadequate in their ability to survive in the cold, so the Reptite extinction would have been assured. Also, given the no doubt shorter life spans of prehistoric humans, there would have been at least one generation that never knew a world that wasn't covered in ice.

Regarding the rise of Zeal, my hypothesis is that Zeal itself began, at the earliest, at the beginning of the warm period immediately proceeding the ice age observed in 12,000 B.C. I say this because with the more abundant resources of the warm period, people would do a lot more exploring and such. Then, as the ice age came, the kingdom itself would have taken to the sky as the Enlightened Ones sought to escape the harsh winter.
Title: The Ice Age: A scientific inconsistency?
Post by: Zaperking on December 21, 2005, 04:01:38 am
I personally thought the beginning culture of Zeal may have begun during the generation in which the Guru's were born (Guru's of Zeal). Since it seems that Zeal herself harnessed innate magic and caused Zeal to advance, that would mean that Zeal itself was built at a later time. Even the construction of the Black Bird seems as if it was built a few months before Crono and co arrived. As for the Mammon Machine, atleast a few years, probably 1-5 around when Schala was 10 or something. And the Ocean Palace seems as if it has had on and off construction. Basically - everything seems pretty new.

As for the iceage, I think it is very inconsistant. The scale impact of Lavos' fall was to minor to cause such a drastic change. The only ground that was obliterated was the Ground undernearth the Tryno lair, which itself was pushed down into the ground - as if it were a cushion to Lavos' fall.
Azala may have been talking about comets that would land after Lavos, as he said that fire would descend onto the earth after the Red Star (Lavos) would stain the Earth red.
Another problem is that it all happened to quickly. Lavos' crash should have caused fires and magma to come up to the surface, which would actually make things hotter, right? But the snow fell instead, so who knows. Maybe Lavos absorbing the energy of the planet, and shift in the teutonic plates could have affected it aswell?
Title: The Ice Age: A scientific inconsistency?
Post by: Mystik3eb on December 21, 2005, 05:11:56 am
Quote from: Zaperking
As for the iceage, I think it is very inconsistant. The scale impact of Lavos' fall was to minor to cause such a drastic change. The only ground that was obliterated was the Ground undernearth the Tryno lair, which itself was pushed down into the ground - as if it were a cushion to Lavos' fall.


...except that they noticed the beginnings of an ice age immediately after Lavos fell.
Title: The Ice Age: A scientific inconsistency?
Post by: Zaperking on December 21, 2005, 05:29:39 am
Quote from: Mystik3eb
Quote from: Zaperking
As for the iceage, I think it is very inconsistant. The scale impact of Lavos' fall was to minor to cause such a drastic change. The only ground that was obliterated was the Ground undernearth the Tryno lair, which itself was pushed down into the ground - as if it were a cushion to Lavos' fall.


...except that they noticed the beginnings of an ice age immediately after Lavos fell.


Yeah, that's why I pretty much said it's in onsistant because it happened so fast. Isn't the fires, the pressure cooker effect and then the ice age supposed to begin in that order?

Anyway, why does Azala think that more stuff will fall from the sky?

Oh Well, CT is a game. And the whole event is supposed to mimic what happened in our world, so I guess it can be passed off that way.
Title: The Ice Age: A scientific inconsistency?
Post by: Chrono'99 on December 21, 2005, 07:23:45 am
The Iokans don't really mention snow, just something white. Maybe that's dust or something.
Title: The Ice Age: A scientific inconsistency?
Post by: GrayLensman on December 21, 2005, 11:22:14 am
Quote from: Chrono'99
The Iokans don't really mention snow, just something white. Maybe that's dust or something.


This is what the villagers say about the climate change.

Quote
Many cloud in sky.
 No can see sun.
 
 White, cold stuff fall from sky.
 What that?
 
 Bright fire, Lavos, fall.
 Get cold now.
 
 No more Sweet Water.
 Never happen before.
 
 Less monster, now cold.
 Less animal too.
 
 Brr!
 Cold!
Title: The Ice Age: A scientific inconsistency?
Post by: SilentMartyr on December 21, 2005, 12:56:05 pm
I would almost have to assume that it was cyclic. Remember how the current ice age in 12000 instatly was abaded once Zeal fell? I would go so far as to say that the kingdom above the clouds might have been the major cause of that cycle, maybe its levetation messed with the weather cycle of the planet.
Title: The Ice Age: A scientific inconsistency?
Post by: Tonjevic on December 21, 2005, 08:19:56 pm
Quote from: Zaperking
Another problem is that it all happened to quickly. Lavos' crash should have caused fires and magma to come up to the surface, which would actually make things hotter, right? But the snow fell instead, so who knows. Maybe Lavos absorbing the energy of the planet, and shift in the teutonic plates could have affected it aswell?


Ahhhah.. They are actually tectonic plates (from the greek tekton, for one who makes). If they were teutonic they would be german...
Anyway, that wouldnt really affect temperature very much, barring if a thinner bit of crust were to come up. Even so, it would only lead to a greater period of volcanic activity. I suppose one could argue that it would release more carbon dioxide into the air, but after 62 million years it would have been absorbed back into the living creatures, plants, and rock of the earth.
The only geological thing that could affect global temperature on such a scale would be Lavos sucking an Implausable amount of thermal energy out of the earth. I mean humungous amounts and even so, it would still only be really prevalent at night. Perhaps Lavos was recuperating after his long space voyage?
Maybe he went into hibernation for a while and was just starting to wake up by the time Chrono and co. came around?
Title: The Ice Age: A scientific inconsistency?
Post by: Naz on December 22, 2005, 05:09:38 pm
Is anyone else interested in that comment on the sweet water?
Title: The Ice Age: A scientific inconsistency?
Post by: Hindu_Pez on December 25, 2005, 11:26:46 pm
I think the Tyranno Lair may have played a part in this.

How is it that Lavos comes to Earth and ushers in a ridiculous ice age, yet the Tyranno Lair remains underground, untouched many years later when you go looking for the Rainbow Shell?

It is possible that this is where everyone hid out at.


...just a small theory. I don't have much evidence to back it up.
Title: The Ice Age: A scientific inconsistency?
Post by: GrayLensman on December 26, 2005, 12:04:33 am
Quote from: Naz
Is anyone else interested in that comment on the sweet water?


Yes, that's a good point.  Lavos seemed to have disrupted the source of the Sweet Water, whatever it is.  This could possibly relate to the environmental catastrophe, or the weakening of the planet's spirit.
Title: The Ice Age: A scientific inconsistency?
Post by: AuraTwilight on December 26, 2005, 04:28:11 am
Quote

How is it that Lavos comes to Earth and ushers in a ridiculous ice age, yet the Tyranno Lair remains underground, untouched many years later when you go looking for the Rainbow Shell?


That entire place could be an astral projection or dream of the planet.
Title: The Ice Age: A scientific inconsistency?
Post by: Zaperking on December 26, 2005, 09:38:03 am
Huge assumption, with not a lot to back it up. Everythere has changed. Even the monsters, the room looks rusted. The Rusted Tryno kinda proves that it survived etc. The Rainbow shell, the the items if you didn't take them. It's all physical.
Title: The Ice Age: A scientific inconsistency?
Post by: AuraTwilight on December 27, 2005, 12:54:01 am
Just because it's physical doesn't mean it can't be an astral manifestation. See; Turnip, Masa, Mune, Doreen, etc.
Title: The Ice Age: A scientific inconsistency?
Post by: Zaperking on December 27, 2005, 02:45:06 am
But Masa, Mune and Doreen actually became physical, thanks to Lavos' power.
Title: The Ice Age: A scientific inconsistency?
Post by: Chrono'99 on December 27, 2005, 06:56:10 am
Quote from: Zaperking
But Masa, Mune and Doreen actually became physical, thanks to Lavos' power.

Proof?
Title: The Ice Age: A scientific inconsistency?
Post by: AuraTwilight on December 27, 2005, 09:40:40 am
All that's said is that they're manifestations of Belthasar's dreams. We don't know if that's even literal, or how it came to be. Also, there's still Turnip. Was that sleeping Dragoon a conduit for the Time Devourer's power or something?
Title: The Ice Age: A scientific inconsistency?
Post by: Radical_Dreamer on December 27, 2005, 05:53:18 pm
Quote from: Chrono'99
Quote from: Zaperking
But Masa, Mune and Doreen actually became physical, thanks to Lavos' power.

Proof?


The best we've got is a quote from Doreen in Enhasa:

"The power of Lavos can make hopes and dreams come true...but at what cost?"

Mind you, I don't know if it was Lavos' power that created them, and truth be told, I'm skeptical of that position. I figure a powerful guy like Melchior, with access to tons of Dreamstone, could very well have figured that one out on his own, being the Guru of Life and all.
Title: The Ice Age: A scientific inconsistency?
Post by: Zaperking on December 27, 2005, 06:51:24 pm
Quote from: Radical_Dreamer
Quote from: Chrono'99
Quote from: Zaperking
But Masa, Mune and Doreen actually became physical, thanks to Lavos' power.

Proof?


The best we've got is a quote from Doreen in Enhasa:

"The power of Lavos can make hopes and dreams come true...but at what cost?"

Mind you, I don't know if it was Lavos' power that created them, and truth be told, I'm skeptical of that position. I figure a powerful guy like Melchior, with access to tons of Dreamstone, could very well have figured that one out on his own, being the Guru of Life and all.


I think it could have happened when he was first building the Mammon Machine. Like in RD where the flame was, and most likely in CT, even a mental wish or some kind of link with it could have turned the Melchior dream trio into physical beings.
Title: The Ice Age: A scientific inconsistency?
Post by: Chrono'99 on December 27, 2005, 07:02:57 pm
Quote from: Zaperking
Quote from: Radical_Dreamer
Quote from: Chrono'99
Quote from: Zaperking
But Masa, Mune and Doreen actually became physical, thanks to Lavos' power.

Proof?


The best we've got is a quote from Doreen in Enhasa:

"The power of Lavos can make hopes and dreams come true...but at what cost?"

Mind you, I don't know if it was Lavos' power that created them, and truth be told, I'm skeptical of that position. I figure a powerful guy like Melchior, with access to tons of Dreamstone, could very well have figured that one out on his own, being the Guru of Life and all.


I think it could have happened when he was first building the Mammon Machine. Like in RD where the flame was, and most likely in CT, even a mental wish or some kind of link with it could have turned the Melchior dream trio into physical beings.

That's only in RD. In CC (thus in CT also), the Frozen Flame never granted anyone a wish. This stuff about wishes is just a fake legend like the legend claiming that the Dragon Gods are good guys and that they sealed the Flame.

Belthasar never had a wish granted by the Flame, although he could easily have wished to save Schala without having to do all his Project Kid crap. Chronopolis itself wished to control space-time and got time-crashed instead. For all the time FATE had the Flame, she never managed to reincarnate into a new species like she wished to (Lynx doesn't count). The "Time Devoured" Dragon God also didn't ask a wish to the Flame when she brought it to Terra Tower, although god knows what crazy and gloomy stuff she could have wished. After they defeated this Dragon God, Serge, Kid, Funguy, Van, Viper, etc. also didn't ask for whatever wish they wanted.

All the FF can do is some time-space tricks like accelerating the human brain's evolution, making time crash, or reverting someone's injuries (and that last thing was only because of Schala's will).
Title: The Ice Age: A scientific inconsistency?
Post by: Zaperking on December 28, 2005, 05:08:34 am
Quote from: Chrono'99
Quote from: Zaperking
Quote from: Radical_Dreamer
Quote from: Chrono'99
Quote from: Zaperking
But Masa, Mune and Doreen actually became physical, thanks to Lavos' power.

Proof?


The best we've got is a quote from Doreen in Enhasa:

"The power of Lavos can make hopes and dreams come true...but at what cost?"

Mind you, I don't know if it was Lavos' power that created them, and truth be told, I'm skeptical of that position. I figure a powerful guy like Melchior, with access to tons of Dreamstone, could very well have figured that one out on his own, being the Guru of Life and all.


I think it could have happened when he was first building the Mammon Machine. Like in RD where the flame was, and most likely in CT, even a mental wish or some kind of link with it could have turned the Melchior dream trio into physical beings.

That's only in RD. In CC (thus in CT also), the Frozen Flame never granted anyone a wish. This stuff about wishes is just a fake legend like the legend claiming that the Dragon Gods are good guys and that they sealed the Flame.

Belthasar never had a wish granted by the Flame, although he could easily have wished to save Schala without having to do all his Project Kid crap. Chronopolis itself wished to control space-time and got time-crashed instead. For all the time FATE had the Flame, she never managed to reincarnate into a new species like she wished to (Lynx doesn't count). The "Time Devoured" Dragon God also didn't ask a wish to the Flame when she brought it to Terra Tower, although god knows what crazy and gloomy stuff she could have wished. After they defeated this Dragon God, Serge, Kid, Funguy, Van, Viper, etc. also didn't ask for whatever wish they wanted.

All the FF can do is some time-space tricks like accelerating the human brain's evolution, making time crash, or reverting someone's injuries (and that last thing was only because of Schala's will).


Well, The flame didn't allow anyone to ask a wish from it, at the top of Terra Tower. All it did was (Schala) tell them the truth, or how much of a better life they could lead or other dark stuff with "if only". Seems to me like the old RD reincarnation tactic is coming back. Schala wanted to live an "if only" life, but since she couldn't change time back then, the flame gave her the chance to live out in a different life, which Schala may have always been wishing and thinking "if only" etc. I dunno.

As to wishes. I'm not exactally sure either if it wishes them. In RD, Lavos may have played  a part into reincarnating Schala. Or the flame has it's own sentience. I think it's more to do with the power that it has that metaphorically "can make dreams come true". Zeal's dream of becoming immortal (for instance) came true thanks to the power of Lavos. Masa, Mune and Doreen may have became physical because of Lavos' Time/Space power, and it could have taken them out of the astral/dream world etc. I guess it's limitless. But since Lavos' power is essentially the planets, who knows. Maybe whatever you dream can come true one day. That may be why Crono had said that FATE dreamed or wanted or hoped to use the power to make it's own spieces. I myself would have thought that it'd be a more powerful message if FATE wanted to become human, or a God.
Title: The Ice Age: A scientific inconsistency?
Post by: AuraTwilight on December 28, 2005, 02:50:15 pm
Quote
Well, The flame didn't allow anyone to ask a wish from it, at the top of Terra Tower. All it did was (Schala) tell them the truth, or how much of a better life they could lead or other dark stuff with "if only". Seems to me like the old RD reincarnation tactic is coming back. Schala wanted to live an "if only" life, but since she couldn't change time back then, the flame gave her the chance to live out in a different life, which Schala may have always been wishing and thinking "if only" etc. I dunno.


The "If Only" Plot device has been used in fiction since the dawn of humanity. It's how religion got started up. I highly doubt it's supposed to be a super-secret allusion to RD. If anything, it's a motif for satanic temptation of the soul.

Quote
As to wishes. I'm not exactally sure either if it wishes them. In RD, Lavos may have played a part into reincarnating Schala. Or the flame has it's own sentience. I think it's more to do with the power that it has that metaphorically "can make dreams come true". Zeal's dream of becoming immortal (for instance) came true thanks to the power of Lavos. Masa, Mune and Doreen may have became physical because of Lavos' Time/Space power, and it could have taken them out of the astral/dream world etc. I guess it's limitless. But since Lavos' power is essentially the planets, who knows. Maybe whatever you dream can come true one day. That may be why Crono had said that FATE dreamed or wanted or hoped to use the power to make it's own spieces. I myself would have thought that it'd be a more powerful message if FATE wanted to become human, or a God.


in RD, I don't think the Flame had sentience. (Nor do I think it did in CC. In both instances, I think the Flame merely reflects a person's heart, mimicing their thought patterns to carry out what it needs to do.) Zeal's dream of becoming immortal was simple to do with pumping herself with Lavoid energy, keeping her metabolism going. The whole thing with making Melchior's "children" come to life might not even be attributed to Lavos. Lavos' great powers over the universe could be considered simple if you look at Chronoverse with a Gnostic viewpoint.

In Gnosticism, the entire universe is a dream of a false god, a demiurge, and mankind and other sentient beings are imbued with souls, making them more than dreams (even though their bodies are still dream stuff.) Bot hthe Planet's and Lavos' great powers over the universe can be simple if you consider them Demiurges. (Lavos is a false god, the Planet is the "creator" but in a highly limited sense in comparison to our view of God.)

As for FATE's wishes, who knows. Maybe it meant to become a new species from what it was, meaning to become human, or the species it would've created would've been godlike but under FATE's control. My personal interpretation would be to destroy humanity and give power of the Earth to a godlike race made of a conglomeration of Earth DNA, giving birth to a suspicious race of Lavos Spawns. It's my belief that Lavos may be controlling FATE via the Flame and using it as a tool to reproduce from it's sealed position in the DBT.
Title: The Ice Age: A scientific inconsistency?
Post by: Zaperking on December 28, 2005, 07:03:26 pm
The only thing that I have to add about the Flame is that powerful quote:
Quote
Be very careful when
   you stare into the flame...
   For the flame will also
   stare back at you...

Directly after it follows:
Quote
It will either transform you
   into a different being...
   Or burn you into ashes.


A different being is what Schala became in RD.... I knew I remembered some ties with it in the game. So if that is also one of it's power, than the RD flame and CC isn't really different.

BTW, Half of the game's antagonists such as FATE kind of point out that the Flame does have sentience when the chosen one is around. Like how FATE wanted to destroy the Dead Sea because the Flame would "Awake".
Title: The Ice Age: A scientific inconsistency?
Post by: AuraTwilight on December 28, 2005, 11:40:53 pm
You honestly have no grasp of metaphor, do you, Zapar?

Quote
   
PostPosted: Wed Dec 28, 2005 5:03 pm    Post subject:
The only thing that I have to add about the Flame is that powerful quote:
Quote:
Be very careful when
you stare into the flame...
For the flame will also
stare back at you...

Directly after it follows:
Quote:
It will either transform you
into a different being...
Or burn you into ashes.


A different being is what Schala became in RD.... I knew I remembered some ties with it in the game. So if that is also one of it's power, than the RD flame and CC isn't really different.


Or like...how the Mirror of Erised in Harry Potter causes people to waste away in front of it to find it's secrets.

Quote
BTW, Half of the game's antagonists such as FATE kind of point out that the Flame does have sentience when the chosen one is around. Like how FATE wanted to destroy the Dead Sea because the Flame would "Awake".


Or maybe it lies dormant until the Arbiter arrives, and it peaks up in power in response to it's power.
Title: The Ice Age: A scientific inconsistency?
Post by: GrayLensman on December 29, 2005, 01:43:00 am
The Frozen Flame was simply a piece of Lavos's body.  The Arbiter of the Frozen Flame was the mediator between Lavos and the universe.  Legends about wishes were nothing but hearsay.

The Flame was controlled by Lavos's intelligence, either inside the planet or in the DBT.    There is no need to complicate the matter any further.
Title: The Ice Age: A scientific inconsistency?
Post by: Zaperking on December 29, 2005, 01:57:06 am
Quote from: GrayLensman
The Frozen Flame was simply a piece of Lavos's body.  The Arbiter of the Frozen Flame was the mediator between Lavos and the universe.  Legends about wishes were nothing but hearsay.

The Flame was controlled by Lavos's intelligence, either inside the planet or in the DBT.    There is no need to complicate the matter any further.


Schala was the one who talked through the flame on 3 different events whilst her and Lavos were in the DBT...
Title: The Ice Age: A scientific inconsistency?
Post by: GrayLensman on December 29, 2005, 01:59:02 am
Quote from: Zaperking
Schala was the one who talked through the flame on 3 different events whilst her and Lavos were in the DBT...


Schala was merged with Lavos.
Title: The Ice Age: A scientific inconsistency?
Post by: Zaperking on December 29, 2005, 07:10:19 am
Quote from: GrayLensman
Quote from: Zaperking
Schala was the one who talked through the flame on 3 different events whilst her and Lavos were in the DBT...


Schala was merged with Lavos.


She could still talk subconsiously. She sure got Kid very aggrivated by telling her who Kid really was, and what was installed with her in the very end (and Kid was all like "NO, IM ME. I'M KID AND THAT'S WHO I AM!!!!" etc. etc. But really, Schala probably told her the truth, of their later merging. Or atleast the memories get transfered or something.
Title: The Ice Age: A scientific inconsistency?
Post by: Chrono'99 on December 29, 2005, 07:41:07 am
Quote from: Zaperking
Quote from: GrayLensman
Quote from: Zaperking
Schala was the one who talked through the flame on 3 different events whilst her and Lavos were in the DBT...


Schala was merged with Lavos.


She could still talk subconsiously. She sure got Kid very aggrivated by telling her who Kid really was, and what was installed with her in the very end (and Kid was all like "NO, IM ME. I'M KID AND THAT'S WHO I AM!!!!" etc. etc. But really, Schala probably told her the truth, of their later merging. Or atleast the memories get transfered or something.

Yeah no wishes or miracles in any case.
Title: The Ice Age: A scientific inconsistency?
Post by: The Shadow on December 29, 2005, 02:53:31 pm
Quote from: Zaperking

Yeah, that's why I pretty much said it's in onsistant because it happened so fast. Isn't the fires, the pressure cooker effect and then the ice age supposed to begin in that order?

Anyway, why does Azala think that more stuff will fall from the sky?

Oh Well, CT is a game. And the whole event is supposed to mimic what happened in our world, so I guess it can be passed off that way.


No one seems to have answered this one (if they have then yell at me, I don't care) but I think that the "stuff that will fall from the sky" is Lavos's attack that it uses on Zeal, 1999 A.D. and occasionally Chrono and company.  It may not really fall from space, but it still firey doom falling from the heavens (like lavos did).
......
...you guys can keep talking about the frozen flame now...
Title: The Ice Age: A scientific inconsistency?
Post by: AuraTwilight on December 29, 2005, 04:19:53 pm
Quote
She could still talk subconsiously. She sure got Kid very aggrivated by telling her who Kid really was, and what was installed with her in the very end (and Kid was all like "NO, IM ME. I'M KID AND THAT'S WHO I AM!!!!" etc. etc. But really, Schala probably told her the truth, of their later merging. Or atleast the memories get transfered or something.


Well DUH. Because she was merged with Lavos. Thusly she's connected to the Flame.
Title: The Ice Age: A scientific inconsistency?
Post by: Daniel Krispin on December 31, 2005, 02:46:07 am
Personally, I would vote on the cyclic side of things. It's more consistant from what we know of our own planet's history, after all. The thing that must also be considered is that not the whole planet was covered in ice, only the northern and middle regions. Creatures even marginally more protected than the Reptites could have survived for millions of years without even the need to adapt, simply by moving to slightly warmer climates. But even those warmer climates were still too cold for the Reptites and, even if they didn't die all at once, they were sufficiently weakened to pose no threat to emerging humanity. Nevertheless, I seriously doubt that the ice ages are the same. Consider it this way: it lasts for 65 million years, and leaves at that moment? Unless Lavos' arising once again shifted the climate - in this case for the warmer (which, I suppose is possible) - that would be a great coincidence. Anyway, the simplest scientifically plausable explanation would be, I think, that Zeal happened to rise just at a time when another Ice Age was beginning; it likely made it easier to enslave people as well, and so on and so forth.
Title: The Ice Age: A scientific inconsistency?
Post by: Lin_Zhen_Quan on January 03, 2006, 07:30:15 am
the ice age was brought about by the thick clouds subsequent to the impact of lavos, which would eventually settle therefore allowing sun to pass through and thawing the earth out eventually.
Title: The Ice Age: A scientific inconsistency?
Post by: Tonjevic on January 03, 2006, 09:37:02 am
Which it does, just after 12000 B.C. So what? if a concentration of a gas was put into the atmosphere by the collision, it would seesaw the temperature from hot to cold in lessening degrees until the world had settled down again.
Our Earth does this, and so does the chrono one.

I would make a more cohesive argument, but I dont think I need to. Also, Im tired of replying to your slipshod comments.
Title: The Ice Age: A scientific inconsistency?
Post by: Daniel Krispin on January 04, 2006, 03:46:43 am
Very true. I suppose that that must be considered as well, that drastic climate shifts often cause rebound the other direction, before returning to a median.

Now, something I had not mentioned. From when I first played CT, I figured that parts of it were loosely based on our world. In this regard, it is almost undeniably provable: 65 million BC is no coincidence. I think most of us knew at once that the creators were alluding to the great metor impact that destroyed the dinosaurs (in some theories, that is; I am well aware that not all are in favour of a drastic extinction, but that, it seems, is what CT maintains.) Now, seeing that, I assume the safest model for the Chrono world would indeed be our own, particularly the behaviour after the 65 million mark. The only uncertainty is this: how versed were they in that history? Did they know that that ice age was not the same as ended 12,000 years ago? It almost seems as though they strung those together. Zeal stands at the brink of human agricultural development in our own world, and the end of our most recent ice age. The time periods, thus, seem to imply that those making the game considered the two ice-ages one in the same. The question then is: do we assume the game-makers ignorance, and hold that the ice-age in the Chrono world was unbroken for that length of time? Or do we assume that they knew full well the history of it, and the distinction in the ages, and that it was just for sake of the story that they set one time upon the start of an ice-age, and another at an end?

The former has some strength in that the game-makers seem rather unconcerned with history. After all, humanity did most certainly not by any theories (unless there are some strange people out there) begin in 65million BC. Rather, they followed the old convention of the cave-people fighting the dinosaurs, so romantisized in old film and the like. As such, this disregard for true-world time could imply that the ice age was a single one.

However, concerning the latter, Chrono Cross is what gives it strength. It seems that whatever scientific errors existed (or seemed to) in Trigger were made good on in Cross. Whilst Trigger places intelligent humanity at 65million BC, Cross speaks of humanity only arising from primeaval states around 3 million BC, so as to better align with evolutionary theory. Thus, the transition from Trigger to Cross represents a step from the fantastical to the scientific. If that is the case, then it might be thought that the game-makers, though originally being dismissive of such things as the ice ages, would come to consider the real-world theories regarding them proper in the end, as they did with matters concerning humanity.

As such, I would recommend the latter. It is less simplistic, of course, but it allows for more accurate assumptions regarding the Chrono world. It also more cohesive with what seem to be the latter views of the story-writers.

Comments?
Title: Planet wide Ice age for 64,988,000 years?
Post by: yujinishuge on December 10, 2008, 12:06:49 am
How the hell would anything survive?  Lavos' fall may have caused an Ice Age, but not one that lasted THIS long!  I think the 12000 BC Ice age is unnaturally prolonged by some kind of Zeal Technology keeping it that way.  It is also planet wide because of Zeal.  I can't see the whole planet being in an ice age though.  Even during Ice ages, there are areas not covered with ice.
Title: Re: Planet wide Ice age for 64,988,000 years?
Post by: Vehek on December 10, 2008, 12:17:10 am
This has been brought up before, a while ago.
http://www.chronocompendium.com/Forums/index.php?topic=1989.0
Title: Re: Planet wide Ice age for 64,988,000 years?
Post by: art_garfunkel on December 10, 2008, 12:18:54 am
How the hell would anything survive?  Lavos' fall may have caused an Ice Age, but not one that lasted THIS long!  I think the 12000 BC Ice age is unnaturally prolonged by some kind of Zeal Technology keeping it that way.  It is also planet wide because of Zeal.  I can't see the whole planet being in an ice age though.  Even during Ice ages, there are areas not covered with ice.
Ice ages come and go. Global temperatures fluctuate over time.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Ice_Age

Enjoy reading up on it.
Title: Re: Planet wide Ice age for 64,988,000 years?
Post by: yujinishuge on December 10, 2008, 02:09:49 am
Well Like I said, even during Ice ages it's impossible that the entire world is covered in snow. 

Then again, I guess it doesn't make sense that it's the same time of day all over the planet and the same season either.
Title: Re: Planet wide Ice age for 64,988,000 years?
Post by: Dark Serge on December 10, 2008, 04:14:38 am
Well Like I said, even during Ice ages it's impossible that the entire world is covered in snow. 

Then again, I guess it doesn't make sense that it's the same time of day all over the planet and the same season either.

On what are you basing that an ice age doesn't cover the entire planet? I'm not an ice age specialist, but imo it'd make sense if it was all over the planet. Otherwise you could just move to a different part of the planet without anyone dieing.
Title: Re: Planet wide Ice age for 64,988,000 years?
Post by: Xenterex on December 10, 2008, 04:41:02 am
Quote
On what are you basing that an ice age doesn't cover the entire planet?

As shown in the 650000 bc era, there is geothermal activity on the planet, so its possible to have areas not effected by the ice per se, but then the complete change in the other temperature direction could still make it difficult to live.  Either that, or those select geo-pockets are the only way most forms of life are then able to survive through the age.

However, it probably is an effective temperature cycle.  In 2300 AD the world, though effectively dying, is initiating another cold streak as seen by the cold air currents that are blowing on the world map, and also in the snow covered peaks of the mountains.
Title: Re: Planet wide Ice age for 64,988,000 years?
Post by: Dark Serge on December 10, 2008, 04:46:48 am
I thought that the Reptites died out because they couldn't stand the cold and humans lived in caves. In Algetty you see how they're also living in a cave. And I'm assuming the ice age is almost over in 12,000 BC. I'm also assuming those people in the commons don't stay there day and night, unless they eventually froze to death.
Title: Re: Planet wide Ice age for 64,988,000 years?
Post by: yujinishuge on December 10, 2008, 10:09:09 am

On what are you basing that an ice age doesn't cover the entire planet?

Science.  Ice ages occur when there is a cooling period in the Earth's climate.  These can be caused by a number of things, but most importantly it occurs because of the slowing of the ocean's current, whereupon colder polar water does not travel as fast to the equator, and warmer equatorial water is thus not travel toward the poles.  This makes areas near the polar regions colder The colder regions allow the growth of the polar caps, and the growth of glaciers. (as either an extension of the cap itself, or forming on mountains and spreading from there).  The equatorial regions however, are warm, and all the animals who need warm climate would be safe there..  It's really common sense.

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I'm not an ice age specialist, but imo it'd make sense if it was all over the planet.
  HAHAHA  I don't know anything about math, but in my opinion 1 plus 1 isn't 2!  Listen to yourself!

Quote
Otherwise you could just move to a different part of the planet without anyone dieing.

We do have reptiles today yes?  Did they evolve after the last ice age or were there reptiles before that ice age?
Title: Re: Planet wide Ice age for 64,988,000 years?
Post by: yujinishuge on December 10, 2008, 10:12:27 am
(http://www.metatech.org/Images/ice%20age%20world%20map.jpg)
Title: Re: Planet wide Ice age for 64,988,000 years?
Post by: Dark Serge on December 10, 2008, 11:12:46 am
This still doesn't solve my point though. Unless all Reptites were packed in Tyrano Lair (which seems impossible) how is it possible that there aren't any Reptites outside of 65,000,000 BC? According to the Compendium they died out in the ice age. And I believe this theory comes from the scene in Chrono Cross in Fort Dragonia.

Also, if you fly around 12,000 BC you won't find a part that's not covered in ice. So how exactly do you explain that? Also try to keep in mind Lavos causing an ice age is different from any ice age we've known.
Title: Re: Planet wide Ice age for 64,988,000 years?
Post by: Shadow D. Darkman on December 10, 2008, 11:20:44 am
In addition to Dark's counter-argument, hardly anything that applies to our world applies to the Chrono Multiverse. Just because that's how it works in our world doesn't mean Square is gonna make it that way in a Chrono game.
Title: Re: Planet wide Ice age for 64,988,000 years?
Post by: yujinishuge on December 10, 2008, 11:47:34 am
Well I started the thread talking about the unliklihood of anything surviving a 65,988,000 year Ice Age.  Then I also said it makes no sense that it covers the whole planet.  So I was talking about the real world.

Title: Re: Planet wide Ice age for 64,988,000 years?
Post by: Shadow D. Darkman on December 10, 2008, 04:42:33 pm
I was talking about the real world.

There's your problem right there. We're not talking about the real world.

EDIT: Typo detected.
Title: Re: Planet wide Ice age for 64,988,000 years?
Post by: chrono eric on December 10, 2008, 05:09:04 pm
I agree with Shadow D. Darkman, the Chronoverse doesn't exactly hold true to factual science, so this thread is pointless.

Oh, and your original statement of "nothing surviving a 65 M year ice age" is incorrect. Even if it did cover the entire planet, aquatic plants and animals would survive just fine, even in shallow waters, and so would innumerable species of extremophile bacteria. Also, chemoautotrophic bacteria and the ecosystems based upon them around thermal vents on the ocean floor would likely be unaffected by any extreme geological activity on the planet.

But once again, it's a video game, not reality.
Title: Re: Planet wide Ice age for 64,988,000 years?
Post by: dan0211 on December 10, 2008, 05:11:56 pm
I base my opinion off the facts of the real world. The Chrono world had multiple ice ages.
Title: Re: Planet wide Ice age for 64,988,000 years?
Post by: Shadow D. Darkman on December 11, 2008, 12:38:30 am
The Chrono world had multiple ice ages.

Just as it was with "yujinishuge" so shall it be with you.

Simply put, back it up or take it down. The choice is yours.
Title: Re: Planet wide Ice age for 64,988,000 years?
Post by: yujinishuge on December 11, 2008, 01:09:59 am


Oh, and your original statement of "nothing surviving a 65 M year ice age" is incorrect.

That was figurative.  I didn't mean absolutely nothing, I meant most terrestrial species.
Title: Re: Planet wide Ice age for 64,988,000 years?
Post by: Thought on December 11, 2008, 12:25:16 pm
Small note, but we don't know if the map we see in Chrono Trigger is the entire world or not. We assume it is, but just as there are probably more people than we ever see in any given time period (else inbreeding would be a problem), there could be a lot more land that we don't see.

As for a planet-wide Ice age lasting 64,988,000 years...  maybe it did, maybe it didn't. Climate cycles in the real world don't last that long, so it could very well have had numerous other ice ages during that time period. However, even if not, an ice age doesn't prevent any life, but it does limit it. During "summer" months, some regions might thaw enough to produce plant life, allowing some animals to survive. The Zealeans were familiar with the oceans, so fish could provide significant food resources, etc.

It isn't that people couldn't survive an ice age, it is just a tough existence.
Title: Re: Planet wide Ice age for 64,988,000 years?
Post by: yujinishuge on December 11, 2008, 12:43:15 pm
Quote
Small note, but we don't know if the map we see in Chrono Trigger is the entire world or not. We assume it is, but just as there are probably more people than we ever see in any given time period (else inbreeding would be a problem), there could be a lot more land that we don't see.

Quite possibly yes.  It also doesn't make sense that when you fly north, you show up on the south side of the map.  East to West makes sense.  But when you fly to the north pole, you don't show up in antarctica seconds later.

Quote
As for a planet-wide Ice age lasting 64,988,000 years...  maybe it did, maybe it didn't. Climate cycles in the real world don't last that long, so it could very well have had numerous other ice ages during that time period.
That was my point...

Quote
However, even if not, an ice age doesn't prevent any life, but it does limit it. During "summer" months, some regions might thaw enough to produce plant life, allowing some animals to survive.
  There would also be some places near the equator that were still tropical and plant life abundant.  

Quote
The Zealeans were familiar with the oceans, so fish could provide significant food resources, etc.

I'm not debating that. 
Title: Re: Planet wide Ice age for 64,988,000 years?
Post by: Acacia Sgt on December 11, 2008, 02:02:21 pm
On the contrary, it can make sense to fly to the north of the map, but then be in the south. Have you ever played Final Fantasy VIII? The world map can be seen as a standard map, but also as a globe. Surely with this setup you just need to compare both and notice how is it possible.
Title: Re: Planet wide Ice age for 64,988,000 years?
Post by: Dark Serge on December 11, 2008, 02:25:26 pm
Small note, but we don't know if the map we see in Chrono Trigger is the entire world or not. We assume it is, but just as there are probably more people than we ever see in any given time period (else inbreeding would be a problem), there could be a lot more land that we don't see.

As for a planet-wide Ice age lasting 64,988,000 years...  maybe it did, maybe it didn't. Climate cycles in the real world don't last that long, so it could very well have had numerous other ice ages during that time period. However, even if not, an ice age doesn't prevent any life, but it does limit it. During "summer" months, some regions might thaw enough to produce plant life, allowing some animals to survive. The Zealeans were familiar with the oceans, so fish could provide significant food resources, etc.

It isn't that people couldn't survive an ice age, it is just a tough existence.

That would violate the image of the planet globe we see at the very end of CT. It looks like Zenan covers most of the globe. Then again, El Nido could be somewhere on the other side we can't see. It should be there, otherwise it's in conflict with the CC globe, where we can also vaguely determine El Nido instead but not Zenan.
Title: Re: Planet wide Ice age for 64,988,000 years?
Post by: yujinishuge on December 11, 2008, 02:40:08 pm
On the contrary, it can make sense to fly to the north of the map, but then be in the south. Have you ever played Final Fantasy VIII? The world map can be seen as a standard map, but also as a globe. Surely with this setup you just need to compare both and notice how is it possible.

It's not possible for the north pole and south pole to be right next to each other by definition, and no I have not played final fantasy 8. 

I guess it's a matter of projection.  If say the top of the map isn't really north, and the bottom isn't south, then I suppose it is possible.  however that creates other problems, as the center of the map and the outer edges would all be the equator, yet when we fly east west, the latitude on the map does not change.
Title: Re: Planet wide Ice age for 64,988,000 years?
Post by: dan0211 on December 11, 2008, 02:41:37 pm
The Chrono world had multiple ice ages.

Just as it was with "yujinishuge" so shall it be with you.

Simply put, back it up or take it down. The choice is yours.
To quote the Wikipedia article on the ice age, "There have been at least four major ice ages in the Earth's past". We never see that multi millon year gap between these two ages, and probably never will see it, who's to say that like Earth it didn't suffer numerous ice ages before the one which existed at the time of Zeal. The Zeal ice age and the one which is beginning in Ayla's time after Lavos' arrival could easily be seperate ice ages.
Title: Re: Planet wide Ice age for 64,988,000 years?
Post by: Shadow D. Darkman on December 11, 2008, 02:46:07 pm
Wikipedia is not a credible source. Try again.
Title: Re: Planet wide Ice age for 64,988,000 years?
Post by: yujinishuge on December 11, 2008, 02:57:53 pm
Wikipedia is not a credible source. Try again.

Oh please...

The information that he's presenting (that multiple ice ages have occured in Earth's history) aren't at all incredible.  Nobody disputes that multiple ice ages have happened, except maybe creationists and crustal slippage theory advocates.



If the ice age was merely caused by the debris from the lavos collision blocking out the sun, then it makes no sense whatsoever that the ice age lasted that long.  If Lavos's presence (something we don't have on real Earth) made the ice age, then why does it suddenly stop in 12000 BC?  Cuz of the fall of Zeal?  What does that have to do with anything?
Title: Re: Planet wide Ice age for 64,988,000 years?
Post by: Thought on December 11, 2008, 03:25:09 pm
That would violate the image of the planet globe we see at the very end of CT. It looks like Zenan covers most of the globe. Then again, El Nido could be somewhere on the other side we can't see. It should be there, otherwise it's in conflict with the CC globe, where we can also vaguely determine El Nido instead but not Zenan.

Take a look at the image of the planet-globe that we see at the very end of CC. Let me know if you still maintain such a position. Here, have a link if you would rather be quick about things: http://www.chronocompendium.com/Term/The_Entity.html

El Nido is a small archepelego. It could not cover half the planet, and it certainly isn't on par with the Zenan mainland. The planets are nice images, but utterly useless.
Title: Re: Planet wide Ice age for 64,988,000 years?
Post by: dan0211 on December 11, 2008, 03:28:14 pm
Even though that fact stands, the facts of multiple ice ages is indisputable. Whether or not Wikipeida is a credible source the fact still stands. I have to agree with yujinishuge. If Lavos, a creature around the same size of the domes, if not smaller could create a 65 million year ice age with just his crash landing, then the meteorite that created the Gulf of Mexico which is thousands of times the size of Lavos, which by chance occurred 65 million years ago, would have also created an ice age, which by that logic would mean that it would still be effect today. Do you see blocked out skies, hundreds of miles of ice covering UK, most of the USA, frozen oceans surrounding use northen hemisphere dwellers?

If Lavos used his powers to create the ice age, why would he ever end it, all life would have survived perfectly fine in frozen climates for millions of years by that logic. If they could survive that long why not till the day Lavos surfaces in 1999AD?
Title: Re: Planet wide Ice age for 64,988,000 years?
Post by: yujinishuge on December 11, 2008, 03:37:27 pm
On the contrary, it can make sense to fly to the north of the map, but then be in the south. Have you ever played Final Fantasy VIII? The world map can be seen as a standard map, but also as a globe. Surely with this setup you just need to compare both and notice how is it possible.

there are two possibilities for video game like map projections..

(http://media-2.web.britannica.com/eb-media/47/2547-004-8428DB64.gif)

In this projection, if you fly north, it makes no sense for you to end up in antarctica.  But that's exactly what would happen if this were a video game map.

(http://landsat.gsfc.nasa.gov/images/techdraw/transverse_mercator.jpg)

In this projection, the flying north south problem is fixed, but now, flying east to west can make you miss entire continents that you shouldn't be missing (fly west from California, end up in Maryland, without hitting Asia or Africa)

Video game maps are impossible.
Title: Re: Planet wide Ice age for 64,988,000 years?
Post by: Acacia Sgt on December 11, 2008, 04:06:40 pm
I still think FFVIII can explain the map thing because unlike most games, it does uses a spherical map.

But to understand the concept of game maps, picture the CT map on a piece of paper. Now, join each of the four corners toguether. While the result may not end up spherical like a planet, it does have geographical sense to the game map (north and south joins, west and east too, and you can quickly travel from one corner to the other).
Title: Re: Planet wide Ice age for 64,988,000 years?
Post by: yujinishuge on December 11, 2008, 04:35:07 pm
I still think FFVIII can explain the map thing because unlike most games, it does uses a spherical map.

But to understand the concept of game maps, picture the CT map on a piece of paper. Now, join each of the four corners toguether. While the result may not end up spherical like a planet, it does have geographical sense to the game map (north and south joins, west and east too, and you can quickly travel from one corner to the other).

Done, and this merely creates more probems.  Sure, the corners are now easily connected, but north and south do not join unless they are close to the corners.  In the meridian (at the half way point of the paper), you travel north till you hit the top of the map, then to continually fly in what would be the same direction on a globe, your course would be altered, making you fly towards the corners.  Try it yourself, and remember that since the video game map is a rectangle, when you connect the corners, your paper looks somewhat diamond (rhombus) shaped.  fly to a peak on the diamond.  do you get transported to an opposite peak?  No, you would go to the other side, following perpendicular to the folds of the paper. use a pen and draw lines if you dont' see what I am getting at.
Title: Re: Planet wide Ice age for 64,988,000 years?
Post by: Acacia Sgt on December 11, 2008, 04:43:36 pm
Then I guess that wasn't the answer.
Title: Re: Planet wide Ice age for 64,988,000 years?
Post by: Dark Serge on December 11, 2008, 04:52:17 pm
That would violate the image of the planet globe we see at the very end of CT. It looks like Zenan covers most of the globe. Then again, El Nido could be somewhere on the other side we can't see. It should be there, otherwise it's in conflict with the CC globe, where we can also vaguely determine El Nido instead but not Zenan.

Take a look at the image of the planet-globe that we see at the very end of CC. Let me know if you still maintain such a position. Here, have a link if you would rather be quick about things: http://www.chronocompendium.com/Term/The_Entity.html

El Nido is a small archepelego. It could not cover half the planet, and it certainly isn't on par with the Zenan mainland. The planets are nice images, but utterly useless.

If those images aren't "canon", then I wonder what is.
Title: Re: Planet wide Ice age for 64,988,000 years?
Post by: Xenterex on December 11, 2008, 07:54:27 pm
Quote
Wikipedia is not a credible source. Try again.

And how isn't it? So long as each given piece of information that constitutes the article is cited, and the citation information matches from the home source, that given information is then 'correct' and therefore credible.  Or are you trying to take the epistemological approach in your skepticism that nothing can be proven anyway, let alone bothered to be theorized or analyzed? 

Quote
I agree with Shadow D. Darkman, the Chronoverse doesn't exactly hold true to factual science, so this thread is pointless.

Well then, don't bother to read a book, or play a game or anything else than ever again because our science in reality isn't even 'factual science.'  We have perceivably closer conceptions in how natural patterns occur, but that doesn't necessitate that we have 'factual' science down pact.  Many changes or inspirations to pursue truth in what we know comes often from things that don't "exactly hold true to factual science"  Scientific fact =/= truth. 

That being said

Quote
Just because that's how it works in our world doesn't mean Square is gonna make it that way in a Chrono game.


Fictional story basis is still going to pull similarities from what people know so that the fake-world is more acceptable, or at least easier for us to understand.  Do things fall-up in Chrono Trigger as the norm?  Is the sky not blue?  Is there a lack of seasonal changes throughout the time periods/locations?  It there some difference to how their time units are made up other than sunlight contrasted to darkness to distinguish from one day to another?   What contrasts to reality we actually see are 'explainable' from the games actual facts, which is a story mechanic to place particular emphasis on events and locations.  If there wasn't a comparable similarity in gravity between the Chronoverse and Earth, would the applications of have a magical floating city in the sky be the same?  Or the impact of having it crash to the ground if that planet's water doesn't splash?

Lavos' impact to the planet created a change in its climate.  The continual effect of that change is then probably either susceptible to the Milankovitch cycles similar to our planet (thus fluctuating the severity of the 'Ice Age') or its unnaturally maintained as a ploy used by Lavos for his impact on lifeforms.  If his purposes to culminate the best DNA and evolutionary traits to himself, then creating and maintaining a particular harsh living environment for long durations certainly is a possibility.  It he doesn't have a hand it in, that it isn't entirely impossible that the 'Ice Age' has lasted all those millions or years, and continue to do so.  Various astrologically based cycles could reduce the noticeable presence of the Ice Age for thousands of years at a time.  The pocket of time from Zeal, where it seems to be receding, to 2300 AD, where it seems to be returning (at least to me) is a span of ~10,000 years, which is an interglacial period similar in length to our own planet. 
Title: Re: Planet wide Ice age for 64,988,000 years?
Post by: KebreI on December 11, 2008, 09:40:40 pm
Well then, don't bother to read a book, or play a game or anything else than ever again because our science in reality isn't even 'factual science.'  We have perceivably closer conceptions in how natural patterns occur, but that doesn't necessitate that we have 'factual' science down pact.  Many changes or inspirations to pursue truth in what we know comes often from things that don't "exactly hold true to factual science"  Scientific fact =/= truth. 
WTF?
Title: Re: The Ice Age: A scientific inconsistency?
Post by: placidchap on December 12, 2008, 08:15:06 am
Science fact = most plausible answer thus far
Title: Re: Planet wide Ice age for 64,988,000 years?
Post by: Thought on December 12, 2008, 11:40:31 am
If those images aren't "canon", then I wonder what is.

 :picardno

There's a smilie for that now, how nice.

Anywho, when in-game images directly contradict other in-game images and in-game text, something has to give. When things contradict, they can't be straight up canon.