Chrono Compendium
Enhasa Halls - Chrono Series Analysis => Characters, Plot, and Themes => Topic started by: ker-plop on October 19, 2005, 02:02:48 am
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I played these two games years ago, but I always had a burning question... When Schala is freed from Lavos's grip, does that change history again? What aspects did her assimilation control?
I'm mostly trying to put my mind at ease as to whether or not Crono, Marle and Lucca would still bite it. I love those guys.
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What does Schala getting freed from Lavos have to do with Crono, Marle and Lucca's fate?
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All the game addresses as far as changes made with Schala being saved, is that the split dimensions are merged together and made one somehow, which makes it seem more like it became Serge's Home dimension...or maybe an interesting combination of both? Apparently everyone will forget what happened (except Kid, whether she joined with Schala to become one or not is still unknown). That's an interesting topic.
...but anyway, it wouldn't change what had happened before the point in time when they had left to the DBT (there, I got the acronym right this time!), freed Schala, and came back. This means that whatever had happened to our heroes before the start of CC would remain unchanged.
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I played these two games years ago, but I always had a burning question... When Schala is freed from Lavos's grip, does that change history again? What aspects did her assimilation control?
I'm mostly trying to put my mind at ease as to whether or not Crono, Marle and Lucca would still bite it. I love those guys.
The circumstances of Crono and Marle's disappearance are completely unknown. If it was related to Project Kid or the Time Devourer, Crono and Marle may still be around in the new timeline.
Consider that the Time Devourer exists in the Darkness Beyond Time. The destruction of the TD did not occur at any particular time on Earth, and would have caused changes to the entire time-line. My interpretation of the aftermath of Chrono Cross is as follows.
- From the perspective of the time-line, once Serge defeats the Time Devourer, it is as if it never existed.
- When Belthasar warps from Zeal to the new timeline, he does not discover that Schala had been absorbed by the TD, and he does not start Project Kid.
- In 2400 AD, FATE and Chronopolis were never built, the Frozen Flame lays dead on the bottom of the ocean, and the counter-time experiment does not take place.
- Lavos does not create a temporal distortion connecting Chronopolis to 10,000 years in the past, and the planet does not do the same for Dinopolis from the Reptite dimension.
- In 7600 BC, Chronopolis and Dinopolis do not fight and the Dragon God is not split into six parts by FATE and absorbed by the Time Devourer.
- Because the temporal distortion surrounding Chronopolis acts like a GATE, the Chronopolis residents appear in the Sea of Eden due to TTI and terraform and colonize El Nido as if FATE and Chronopolis still existed. The same goes for Dinopolis. In 2400 AD, the people who would have worked at Chronopolis mysteriously dissappear due to Time Bastard.
- The Records of FATE never work, except perhaps according to preprogrammed instructions. Elements may or may not be developed.
- Serge is born in 1003 AD.
- Schala does not create Kid, but she may appear in 1004 AD due to TTI.
- Whatever happened to Guardia in 1005 AD hopefully doesn't occur.
- In 1006 AD, Schala does not create a magnetic storm, and Serge does not go to Chronopolis. Wazuki does not become Lynx and Miguel is not imprisoned in the Dead Sea.
- In 1010 AD, Wazuki does not attack Serge and he does not drown. The dimensional split does not occur.
- In 1015 AD, Lynx does not attack Lucca's Orphanage (if it exists) or abduct Lucca.
- In 1020 AD, the new version of Serge disappears due to Time Bastard. The original version of Serge (protected by TTI from warping to the DBT) is sent to Opassa Beach by Schala. Serge's dimension crossing adventure does not occur. What happens to Schala and/or Kid is anyone's guess.[/list:u]
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Yeah, that's what I just thought. I mean, FATE is the one that helped Porre become a military, right? So... No FATE, no military, no takeover, no Lynx, no dead cool characters.
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FATE did not help Porre. FATE wanted to try and preserve history for the most part to ensure its continued existance, and aiding Porre to do something that did not happen originally, like conquering Guardia, would have been a big, big change in history, and jepordise its purpose. Its logical that something else effected Porre's rise to power. It's agianst FATE's pupose to aid in its own possible destruction.
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Well, I recall Grobyc's surprise at finding a weapon that Porre was supposedly designing inside Chronopolis. What could that mean, do you think? Porre was a harbor town, and they probably reached El Nido first... Maybe with trade and such, that's how they became so strong.
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Well, I recall Grobyc's surprise at finding a weapon that Porre was supposedly designing inside Chronopolis. What could that mean, do you think? Porre was a harbor town, and they probably reached El Nido first... Maybe with trade and such, that's how they became so strong.
Norris's quote may shed some light...
Norris:
This is...!
StrongArm!
Norris:
I thought I destroyed
it when I caused the
explosion in the lab...
In any case, the only
one who can operate
this is Grobyc.
Norris:
I must bring
Grobyc here.
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There's this topic about Grobyc's StrongArm (http://www.chronocompendium.com/Forums/viewtopic.php?t=885&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0).
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I don't think anyone truely knows if Guardia was overtaken in the Lavos time line or not. It could have maybe like in 1500AD for all we know, and that's how a central regime happened anyway since there is no Guardia Dome, the continents or areas still have their names (Director says area of Guardia, Medina, Porre etc. being under attack).
BTW, so until 2400AD and only in the time crashed timeline did Porre over take? I would have thought that even before then, Porre could have over taken, maybe that's why FATE didn't want to help out because a few more things would have been changed, even though FATE lets the Porreans in and out of El Nido.
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FATE tries to keep history from being drastically changed, not keeping it from being slightly changed. Hell, its mere presence in the past is a change in itself. Letting Porreans in and out isn't that big of a change.
From what I've read, Zeality believes that the fall of Guardia must have taken place in both Keystone-1 and Keystone-2 timelines. He backs it up with what I said above, FATE trying to keep history unchanged for the most part, to ensure its existance. Thinking Porre rose because of El Nideo, Elements, and Trade is a good theory, but I havn't seen anything to counter FATE not stepping in to prevent such a large change in time such as the most powerful country on the planet being overthrown. Well, maybe not most powerful, but you get the idea.
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I suppose, but I still think that totalling Lavos/saving Schala did something to restore Guardia (at that point in history, anyway). In the ending when Kid gets the flame and takes over Viper Manor, she mentions going in to take over Guardia (not Porre).
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I've never actually gotten that ending, but according to the encylcepedia here on the compendium...
She wishes herself Lord of El Nido, and creates the Acacia Empire by vowing to conquer the Kingdom of Guardia, and then Porre.
I don't see any posiblity for Guardia being saved with the context of Trigger and Cross as of now. Maybe with another game, but without it, I don't see a way.
And although Guardia did fall to Porre, it is still somewhat soverign. Porre still beat it, however. My guess is that Guardia is now torn by Civil War, between rebels and the Porre installed government.
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Well, I think she only mentions Guardia. Whatever the case, since Crono and Marle appear as ghosts, they died somehow. I'm just trying to deduce if they were saved by rescuing Schala.
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This is all assuming Porre defeated Guardia. I personally believe it was all done by one man, the same man who took the Masamune, corrupted it, and put it either in Denadoro or Divine Dragon Falls, whichever you believe it was found in.
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Porre defeated Guardia. Kato, the head guy for Chrono Cross, and parts of Trigger, explicitly said Porre defeated Guardia. The Porre flag in the CT PSX version is further proof.
And I don't believe those "ghosts" are of Crono or Marle. No proof whatsoever.
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I just assumed that because when you talk with Lucca on Opassa Beach, she says that "we no longer exist in this timeline," Instead of "I."
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Where is the Porre flag in CC, cuz I don't remember seeing it anywhere. I had totally forgot there was a flag in that movie in CT until I just watched it a second ago to confirm. I always thought it was the Guardia flag symbollically falling. And I don't recall reading Kato ever explicitly saying Porre defeated Guardia. Can you find that for me?
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In CC, the Porre flag is all over the place in Termina after Porre occupies it.
Question: In Chrono Cross, Porre has a great military, a strong kingdom, and even caused the fall of Guardia. The question is, how did such a small village grow to be so large and powerful to even overthrow the kingdom of Guardia and expand so much in a mere 20 years?
AnDyZ
Azn4eternityz@aol.com
MK: Actually, this is not explained in any of the games, but Porre had some kind of intervention or help originating outside of the original flow of history. But if I start to explain this, it will take me a long time to finish, so I'll stop myself here. (laughs) As it doesn't directly have anything to do with the story of Cross, we cut the details out of the game.
http://www.gamepro.com/sony/psx/games/features/7033.shtml
Guy asks how Porre overthrew Guardia, and Kato starts to answer, before stopping himself before rambling.
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Point taken, though I have to say the Kato never actually acknowledges Porre defeating Guardia, he just says how Porre had outside help to get strong. But you're probably right.
Then again, I'm confused by the ending movie of CT. It also shows a burning town, and supposedly Truce is not Guardia, and Guardia doesn't have a town...at least not in CT. Maybe it developed one afterwards, I dunno. But it also shows a bloody Masamune (looking like it normally does) from a spot stuck in the ground. It would be assumed that once someone who's hopes and dreams are evil (be it Lynx or whoever took the sword) took hold of it, the Masamune would transform to look the way it does in CC...right? Weird.
The PSX port really does suck...ugh...
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Yeah, that ending is why I'm still confused. I mean, it doesn't show the gang getting offed, but still...
If Porre had nothing to do with Lynx, then why did they hold him in such high regard?
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...what? Lynx showed up to Porre, proved his genius/usefullness somehow, and was held in high respects and given a high rank (simply referred to as "sir" unless in other cases that I've forgotten). What's your question?
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The person asks how Porre got strong enough to overthrow Guardia, and even mentioned it in his question, and Kato acknowledged it and vaguly answered it.
Apparently unlike Porre, Truce is a village, not a country. Truce is a village of Guardia. I'll break down the video as how I understand it. It starts off talking about the Fall of Guardia. Its the inside of Guardia Castle, as the Guardia Crest is on the back wall. Shadowed Figure 1 kills Shadowed Figure 2. Porre Flag flashed. We then go to the Masamune disappearing. Village burning, people dead. "Good" Masamune in blood. This basically explains how the Masamune turned evil: kill all those people. And it somehow ties it to Porre, being in the same video that has the fall of Guardia.
After the invasion, Porre does eventually have contact and dealings with Lynx. People assume Lynx had something to do with the fall, but thats not so. Serge's father was even corrupted by FATE untill 1006 (a year after the Fall), and he didn't fully turn into Lynx till 1010, I think. So impossible for Lynx to have had something to do with it.
I have always guessed that unanswered questions on Guardia's fall were to be answered in the next Chrono game.
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Ok, all makes sense.
What doesn't is that that video only plays if you beat CT PSX getting any ending EXCEPT the ACTUAL, complete, normal (whatever) ending. Meaning if you only played the game the way it was supposed to and played out the story the way we all acknowledge it, including the way it happened in the world of CC, this ending wouldn't have happened.
?????
*sigh* Brain...stop...swelling...
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I never got it myself (dont have the PSX version), but I you get it with NewGame+ some how. I just downloaded it online.
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Ok, all makes sense.
What doesn't is that that video only plays if you beat CT PSX getting any ending EXCEPT the ACTUAL, complete, normal (whatever) ending. Meaning if you only played the game the way it was supposed to and played out the story the way we all acknowledge it, including the way it happened in the world of CC, this ending wouldn't have happened.
?????
*sigh* Brain...stop...swelling...
Good question. The first time I beat the game (without New Game +), it didn't run. The other endings differed in what they showed. The "Marle becomes a Frog" episode didn't, but the "Nu, Frog And Kiwala" one did. Every "all the way through" game I played afterwards had the gory piece on it, too. How odd.
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...what? On my play throughs, the additional ending didn't show up on ANY complete play-throughs, but showed up on ALL additional endings. Then again I have yet to try beating Lavos earlier than the complete ending without a New Game +...now that'd be one helluva challenge.
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Seems like all the games I finished that I had used a "New Game +" on had it. I'll replay it sometime from a "New Game" and see if it pops up.
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The Fall of Guardia sequence occurs in New Game+ endings after that one w/Frog & the Queen shtupping and making things all...weird...>_>
Or however you perceive that ending...
Although it might not play if you get the Developers Ending in the Ocean Palace...I'm not sure...
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I wonder if there's a reason for their doing that... Probably just an "unpleasant surprise ending" or something.
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I always figured it was a "Well, since you didn't beat it the way the storyline is most correctly supposed to carry out, you made a change, a bad change, that wouldn't have happened had you beat it the way you were supposed to" kinda thing.
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Uh, it's to segway CC...obviously...
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I meant I HAD always figured.
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Hmm... I don't suppose Porre's power trip is part of the whole "revenge of the planet" thing? You know, since humans only evolved because of Lavos's energy and Crono and Guardia were the alleged champions.
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I'm... not sure what your taking about...
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Hmm... I don't suppose Porre's power trip is part of the whole "revenge of the planet" thing? You know, since humans only evolved because of Lavos's energy and Crono and Guardia were the alleged champions.
While that is an interesting proposition, it really doesn't make sense overall, as the Porrean empire from what it looks like would be a bigger enemy to the planet than Guardia was. Since Guardia was a kingdom of peace, not much of the landscape or the lives of all non-humans were lost, but a great battle like the one assumed to have taken place that sealed Guardia's fate...Think of all the natural resource wreckage, ecosystems destroyed (as forests are destroyed for wood to supply armies, as an example.)
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Good point. I was just thinking, maybe it was something personal... Maybe someone manipulated the war (like Delita in FFTactics) because he/she wanted Crono and Marle gone...
Wasn't there a weapons order from Porre in Lucca's burning house?
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Yes there was... Lucca sold weapons to Porre.
I suggest you look at some of the other topics here, as we did a whole thing on Crono and Marle's fate on serval topics. They are good reads with us debating on what happend to them :)
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All right. Can you recommend some good ones? I'm pretty new around here...
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Yes there was... Lucca sold weapons to Porre.
I suggest you look at some of the other topics here, as we did a whole thing on Crono and Marle's fate on serval topics. They are good reads with us debating on what happend to them :)
The Receipt almost looks as if she was the one who bought something from them.
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Yes there was... Lucca sold weapons to Porre.
I suggest you look at some of the other topics here, as we did a whole thing on Crono and Marle's fate on several topics. They are good reads with us debating on what happend to them :)
The Receipt almost looks as if she was the one who bought something from them.
At least it shows that Lucca wasn't a fugitive from the Porre regime.
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For all we know, maybe she was the one who gave them weapons in the first place. There wasn't anyone else working on that kind of stuff...
But I was just thinking... How old would Lucca be when the house burned down? The people in Chronopolis called her "Doctor," right? She seemed kind of young to have that title... Maybe that shows the interruption in the timeline.
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http://www.chronocompendium.com/Forums/viewtopic.php?t=21
http://www.chronocompendium.com/Forums/viewtopic.php?t=158
Those are two of the more recent ones. One is 7 pages, the other is 17. But we basically concluded that there is no evidence whatso ever that Crono and Marle died in the war agianst Porre.
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Yeah, I guess... It's kind of unsettling to NOT know, though...
If I believed some of the fan fiction writers out there, maybe Lucca sold Porre the war weapons so she could get rid of Marle and have Crono to herself, and then it all backfired... but I don't know about that.
Heh. Let's hope Square coughs up part 3 sooner or later.
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If I believed some of the fan fiction writers out there, maybe Lucca sold Porre the war weapons so she could get rid of Marle and have Crono to herself, and then it all backfired... but I don't know about that.
Er...no. Don't believe it.
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Yeah, I don't either, but it was a possibility before I learned about this place.
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I don't know if anyone noticed the first time I said this (it was trounced rather quickly), but I pointed out that in Chronopolis, Lucca is referred to as the title "doctor." Do you suppose that shows the clash of the timelines? If Lucca was running an orphanage and got killed off, she wouldn't have been able to become a doctor and help build FATE...
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Maybe she was known as that before hand? I mean, she did have a time traveling machine. And doctors don't have an age minimum.
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I just think it might be tough to run an orphanage and be a renowned professor at the same time... It just seems interesting that FATE would kill off someone who helped create it.
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FATE didn't want to kill her.
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FATE doesn't truely know that Lucca created it. Neither does it know that Belthasar is using it. FATE was given the task of watching over El Nido, without knowing of what would happen (Schala's interferance, Serge's Arbiter status, The Prometheus Lock etc.). If FATE did truely know the whole course of time, then it'd know that Belthasar was using it, it'd be destroyed one day etc.
From what I remember, Lucca worked on the new circuit board so that if Belthasar took it to 2300AD (if they ever met) or if it was found in the future, it'd make sure that most of the Mother Brain rougness would cease. As for the Prometheus Lock, (And Kato did say that it is Robo), it could have been that Robo stayed with Lucca, or she brought him back, and he voulinteered to become the circuit or something.
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Two things:
1.) When did Kato say that Robo was the Promethius Circuit. I demand a quote!
2.) FATE had Lucca kidnapped to make her disable the Promethius Lock, she refused, and was supposivly killed for refusing.
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Yeah, I'm aware of that second one. That's why I posted this topic... I'm just wondering why she has the title "doctor" at Chronopolis and nowhere else.
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Because she was a very smart scientist?
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Well, I'm just trying to get my head around that... I mean, if Lucca and Belthasar's work built FATE, and then it killed Lucca (through Lynx) anyway, wouldn't some sort of time mess-up happen? I suppose it doesn't really matter, since everything is fixed by rescuing Schala, but... I'm still perplexed.
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First, no. Secondly, she helped build FATE before it had her "killed".
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Aha. Boy, computers can be pretty rotten kids, can't they?
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4) Prometheus was an independent safety program to prevent the machine from going out of control. FATE itself did not know that such a thing was built into its circuitry. In a way, you could say Prometheus had been waiting for Serge for a long, long time. Prometheus was the one who had protected the Frozen Flame from FATE ever since the young, dying Serge had come into contact with the Flame all those years ago. FATE dared to delete the defiant Prometheus right in front of Serge and friends. Of course, on seeing the death of Prometheus, Serge and friends... (Well, I don't want to give away the story any more than I already have...)
Anyway, if you have played Trigger, then Prometheus should be very familiar to you. I'm sure a lot of players would make a similar 'big fuss' over the death of such a much-loved friend...
Translator's note: I don't want to give away more than Mr. Kato just did, but as a side note to people who played both Trigger and Cross, they'll notice the connection between Mother Brain and FATE and see how long the enmity between Ro... I mean, Prometheus... and the computer had been going on. It is so sad to see Mother succeed in taking her final revenge... - R.M.H.
Lucca may not be dead, Masato would have hinted something. As for Robo.... Sorry Robo.
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I refuse to believe Lucca had to scrap such a wonderfully developed AI (probably the most sophisticated in the world) Just to make a password lock based on comparing genetic codes. It's stupid and ridiculous.
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I refuse to believe Lucca had to scrap such a wonderfully developed AI (probably the most sophisticated in the world) Just to make a password lock based on comparing genetic codes. It's stupid and ridiculous.
But that wonderful AI was what kept all but the Arbitor out. He still servered a purpose.
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Wait a sec, didn't we used to have a bit thread on Robo?
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Wait a sec, didn't we used to have a bit thread on Robo?
Most likely, but most topics die off before the majority of members get a chance to read it.
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Wouldn't Lucca have created the Prometheus circuit to guarantee he had a place in the future? Afterall, we know at the end of Trigger she was really upset about that.
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Data CAN be copied.
It's not so unbelievable that Robo's data was simply copied and uploaded as the Prometheus circuit.
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That would take away the whole experiance and point of their journy for Robo in CT then. Robo gained like a metaphorical heart. He learned emotions, he became almost human and did good things. I don't think Masato would allow such a loved character to simply be "Copied", besides the fact that once Robo went into the gate, it was shut for good.
As Masato said "I'm sure a lot of players would make a similar 'big fuss' over the death of such a much-loved friend... "
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Not really, without the journey Robo would probably never fully realized his emotions etc. And if they were copied, it would make a big difference with Robo's pre-Lavos adventures and post-Lavos.
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Well, if the Mega Man series is any indication, robots can just keep coming back (stupid Sigma!). Lucca's smart enough to make a backup.
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I don't see why Robo wouldn't allow Lucca to disassemble his body and put his 'mind' into the Frozen Flame lock system, especially if Belthasar told him everything of his plan. Robo's a good, caring personality who would, and has, risked his life for his friends (remember the scene in the Factory? Yeah...).
And I personally believe Lucca went into the future with the Epoch and helped Chronopolis and stuff. Though she could have easily not...I dunno really.
And we still don't know that Lucca died, and unless Sentenal comes up with a brilliant no-duh idea that puts all question to rest like he's done to some of my previous beliefs, that's where I stand: we don't know.
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The notion of Lucca travelling to Chronopolis is pretty much disproved by the fact that Chronopolis has limited knowledge of Lavos and Zeal. Had Lucca travelled there, she could have provided some much-needed info.
(Also, a lot of the "brilliant no duh responses," are conclusions drawn from previous discussions. If you have the time, sift through the old threads.)
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That would take away the whole experiance and point of their journy for Robo in CT then. Robo gained like a metaphorical heart. He learned emotions, he became almost human and did good things. I don't think Masato would allow such a loved character to simply be "Copied", besides the fact that once Robo went into the gate, it was shut for good.
As Masato said "I'm sure a lot of players would make a similar 'big fuss' over the death of such a much-loved friend... "
And why would it not be copied? Same Robo, none of the fuss. It's not necessarily taking away from anything, either. Because we only see one Robo, thus we associate ourselves with that Robo.
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Sentenal the great is of the opinion that Lucca isnt dead till I see a body.
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Sentenal the great is of the opinion that Lucca isnt dead till I see a body.
Mystik3eb the humble agrees.
(Also, a lot of the "brilliant no duh responses," are conclusions drawn from previous discussions. If you have the time, sift through the old threads.)
I would if I had the time. It'd do me alot of good.
But anyway, who says Lucca needs to give them that information? But no it's true, it's not likely she went to Chronopolis, but it's not totally impossible.
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Bah, Kazuki, your taking away my fire! lol
I think Lucca simply made the Promethius Lock, not the entire FATE computer.
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Well, as GrayLensman pointed out on the first page of this topic, when Schala is rescued, the Frozen Flame is sunk (in the future, anyway). That means there's no reason for Lucca to build a lock, or to get killed over it.
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And why would it not be copied? Same Robo, none of the fuss. It's not necessarily taking away from anything, either. Because we only see one Robo, thus we associate ourselves with that Robo
You just mutilated the whole relation ship with Lucca and Robo. Lucca isn't a hussy whore skank bitch who is like "Well, if you die, i'll make myself another friend". Lucca is definetly not like that. She shows her caring side, and that all she wants to do is make machines safe for humans. She's not out to make copies of Robo, especially since she never had a chance to.
Besides, remember what Prometheus says. It's something like "Saaaave the fut...re................." or something.
And even Chronopolis had not yet cloned souls or anything, so how would Lucca go about it. Robo shows that he basically has a soul, and without the experiances, he wouldn't be who he is. I think using the real Robo as a thing to stop FATE would be very smart. Besides, if Belthasar fore saw all this, it means that he intended Lucca to be kindnapped and possibly killed, so I don't think she went into the future. Man, that'd be really fucked.
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Firstly, dismantling a fully functional Robot with an advanced AI for the purpose of the Prothmethius Lock is NOT smart. Its idiotic. Especially since Robo's "soul" is circuts and memory. Impossible to even prove he has anything other than an advanced AI, which can be copied.
And Lucca copying Robo's memory doesn't demean Robo. In fact, its doing him a favor. He gets to keep his body, not die, and Lucca gets to have an advanced AI for her lock.
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Plus, when did ,"copying," ever imply death? I'm sure they have procedures for copying his data without even slightly damaging the original Robo.
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I never said it implyed death. It makes Lucca seem like a whore if shes just like "Well, I need another copy so i'll just make another friend, kk Robo?".
Plus, If Masato Kato said it's a death of a dearly loved friend, then it is the death of a dearly "non-copied" friend. Where do you people get these ideas, especially since there's no proof that Lucca ever time travelled after 1000AD (in cannon)
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I still fail to see where Kato states that Robo is dead.
Anyway, if you have played Trigger, then Prometheus should be very familiar to you. I'm sure a lot of players would make a similar 'big fuss' over the death of such a much-loved friend...
From what I understand, he's not saying Robo is Prometheus and is dead. He just says that a lot of players would make a similar big fuss because they might think that a much-loved friend is dead. He's basically speaking about the big fuss, not the actual death or false death of Robo or Prometheus or whatever else.
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Well, when Schala is rescued, both Lucca and "Prometheus" should have been restored, I believe. Without the Flame, Lucca has no need to build a lock. And without a lock, Lynx (if he even exists now) has no need to grab Lucca to help break it.
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And why would it not be copied? Same Robo, none of the fuss. It's not necessarily taking away from anything, either. Because we only see one Robo, thus we associate ourselves with that Robo
You just mutilated the whole relation ship with Lucca and Robo. Lucca isn't a hussy whore skank bitch who is like "Well, if you die, i'll make myself another friend". Lucca is definetly not like that. She shows her caring side, and that all she wants to do is make machines safe for humans. She's not out to make copies of Robo, especially since she never had a chance to.
Besides, remember what Prometheus says. It's something like "Saaaave the fut...re................." or something.
And even Chronopolis had not yet cloned souls or anything, so how would Lucca go about it. Robo shows that he basically has a soul, and without the experiances, he wouldn't be who he is. I think using the real Robo as a thing to stop FATE would be very smart. Besides, if Belthasar fore saw all this, it means that he intended Lucca to be kindnapped and possibly killed, so I don't think she went into the future. Man, that'd be really fucked.
First off, there isn't anything to say Robo has anything beyond an advanced AI. Secondly, making a copy of Robo is not offensive in the least, though you may feel inclined otherwise, emotionally.
Robo is a computer program. That is all his personality is made of. I don't see some great personal insult in copying the essence of Robo for an advanced computer program.
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I never said it implyed death. It makes Lucca seem like a whore if shes just like "Well, I need another copy so i'll just make another friend, kk Robo?".
I personally think Lucca would be a bigger whore if she went. "Y'know, Robo, I love ya and all, but I want to take ya apart in the most painful fashion possible to be used as a lock for something I've never heard of from a computer system that won't be built for 1400 years in an alternate timeline, K? Oh, and you're grounded."
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I never said it implyed death. It makes Lucca seem like a whore if shes just like "Well, I need another copy so i'll just make another friend, kk Robo?".
I personally think Lucca would be a bigger whore if she went. "Y'know, Robo, I love ya and all, but I want to take ya apart in the most painful fashion possible to be used as a lock for something I've never heard of from a computer system that won't be built for 1400 years in an alternate timeline, K? Oh, and you're grounded."
Exactly. Would you rather have your "friend" dismantle your entire body, and scrap your circuts and memory for a simple computer lock, or would you rather have your friend simply copy your memory, not destroy you, and still get what she needs. Your logic is very, very flawed, zaper.
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Lucca probably wouldn't, whoese to say Belthasar wouldn't do it or that Robo himself would like it. He is himself brave, and probably would do it to save humanity (obviousally Belthasar would tell him why he needs him.... so Serge touches it and becomes the arbiter, time split etc, TD etc)
people who played both Trigger and Cross, they'll notice the connection between Mother Brain and FATE and see how long the enmity between Ro... I mean, Prometheus... and the computer had been going on. It is so sad to see Mother succeed in taking her final revenge...
Plus, it's more absurd to suggest that Lucca somehow time travelled to get Robo, copied his data etc... WHEN THEY DIDN'T EVEN HAVE COMPUTERS! Not to mention the fact that the Epoch would be dismantalled in Cannon, and the Time Machine would close too. If she were to make one, it in no way could resemble the same Robo, otherwise there'd be no point of Masato doing it lol.
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They had computers, she invented Gato, and that is definetely a computer.
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Lucca probably wouldn't, whoese to say Belthasar wouldn't do it or that Robo himself would like it. He is himself brave, and probably would do it to save humanity (obviousally Belthasar would tell him why he needs him.... so Serge touches it and becomes the arbiter, time split etc, TD etc)
people who played both Trigger and Cross, they'll notice the connection between Mother Brain and FATE and see how long the enmity between Ro... I mean, Prometheus... and the computer had been going on. It is so sad to see Mother succeed in taking her final revenge...
Plus, it's more absurd to suggest that Lucca somehow time travelled to get Robo, copied his data etc... WHEN THEY DIDN'T EVEN HAVE COMPUTERS! Not to mention the fact that the Epoch would be dismantalled in Cannon, and the Time Machine would close too. If she were to make one, it in no way could resemble the same Robo, otherwise there'd be no point of Masato doing it lol.
We only see one Robo. We assume that since this is the only Robo we see, it is indeed the only Robo. Mother Brain is practically non-existent. We know that FATE was created based on the Mother Brain series, but I believe you're a tad mixed up in your belief that the Prometheus circuit was placed there to keep FATE in check.
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Lucca probably wouldn't, whoese to say Belthasar wouldn't do it or that Robo himself would like it. He is himself brave, and probably would do it to save humanity (obviousally Belthasar would tell him why he needs him.... so Serge touches it and becomes the arbiter, time split etc, TD etc)
people who played both Trigger and Cross, they'll notice the connection between Mother Brain and FATE and see how long the enmity between Ro... I mean, Prometheus... and the computer had been going on. It is so sad to see Mother succeed in taking her final revenge...
Plus, it's more absurd to suggest that Lucca somehow time travelled to get Robo, copied his data etc... WHEN THEY DIDN'T EVEN HAVE COMPUTERS! Not to mention the fact that the Epoch would be dismantalled in Cannon, and the Time Machine would close too. If she were to make one, it in no way could resemble the same Robo, otherwise there'd be no point of Masato doing it lol.
We only see one Robo. We assume that since this is the only Robo we see, it is indeed the only Robo. Mother Brain is practically non-existent. We know that FATE was created based on the Mother Brain series, but I believe you're a tad mixed up in your belief that the Prometheus circuit was placed there to keep FATE in check.
Then why does Kato say so?
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I thought Prometheus, while not invented to "keep FATE in check", was invented as a fail safe incase it went psycho. Sort of the same concept, but more emergency-oriented rather than ultimate control. There's a quote somewhere that hints at Prometheus's creation simply to start a rebellion of some sort in the system, which is leaning me towards this belief.
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Because it is, sorta Robo. A copy of his memory, his AI.
And your comment about Robo being brave is still using your flawed logic. Copying Robo's AI so that she doesn't have to kill Robo, and accomplishing the EXACT SAME PURPOSE that riping Robo apart would is better. Both dismantling Robo for his AI, and copying his AI without destroying Robo get the same job done, just that in one case, Robo does have to be unnessisarly stripped for parts.
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I thought Prometheus, while not invented to "keep FATE in check", was invented as a fail safe incase it went psycho. Sort of the same concept, but more emergency-oriented rather than ultimate control. There's a quote somewhere that hints at Prometheus's creation simply to start a rebellion of some sort in the system, which is leaning me towards this belief.
Exactly. Prometheus was not there to keep FATE in check, it was simply there in case something went bad. It was there to delete FATE, and itself, if discovered.
Then why does Kato say so?
Refer to the above arguments.
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I thought Prometheus, while not invented to "keep FATE in check", was invented as a fail safe incase it went psycho. Sort of the same concept, but more emergency-oriented rather than ultimate control. There's a quote somewhere that hints at Prometheus's creation simply to start a rebellion of some sort in the system, which is leaning me towards this belief.
Are you talking about the Prometheus lock or the original R series model? Robo was originally reprogrammed by Mother Brain to collect data on the humans, but he learned to favor his human friends after the Apocalypse.
ATROPOS: Mwa, ha...
Unlike the other R-series,
Prometheus had a special task.
To live with humans and study them
as a species...
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Being noble isn't a substitute for being stupid.
The mark of an immature man is one who wants to die for a noble cause, while the mark of a mature mom is one who wants to live for a noble cause. I
If his memory can be copied, then it should be copied. What if Robo is needed alive for another purpose? Not to mention that dismantling Robo that early in the timeline will probably cause some kind of paradox that will rip the universe asunder, I dunno.
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I thought Prometheus, while not invented to "keep FATE in check", was invented as a fail safe incase it went psycho. Sort of the same concept, but more emergency-oriented rather than ultimate control. There's a quote somewhere that hints at Prometheus's creation simply to start a rebellion of some sort in the system, which is leaning me towards this belief.
Exactly. Prometheus was not there to keep FATE in check, it was simply there in case something went bad. It was there to delete FATE, and itself, if discovered.
Then why does Kato say so?
Refer to the above arguments.
What the hell. You mean it was there to make sure FATE couldn't use it for it's own greedy needs, in other words, turn itself into it's own speicies.
Anyway at Aura
If Robo was dismantled, it'd be in 2300AD, not by Lucca. Lucca was working on a circuit board, but was killed. And it wasn't on a Robo one either, it was to change Mother Brain a bit. Lucca had no time to download and memories (besides having no computer. Robots aren't computer, they're AI's), and was killed by 1015AD (atleast some think anyway).
STOP KILLING ROBO'S MEMORY! ALL OF YOU PEOPLE WHO THINK HE'S NOT SPECIAL.
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A robot or android's AI is fueled by, yes, that's right, an internal processor of some kind aka a computer! Go figure.
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Yeah, I'm talking about actual PC's. Without them, Lucca's progress is limited to making circuit boards. In 1000AD, they don't even have TVs.
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In 1000AD, they don't even have TVs.
Now that you mention it, I realize it's weird that the party isn't surprised at all in 2,300AD when they see those "rectangular boxes with flat things moving in it" :/
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Zaper, its FACT that Lucca "made" the Promethius circuit. FACT. In order for Lucca to have made that, she would have had to have access to Robo. She had the Epoch. FACT.
And how about you stop hating Robo, wishing for him to be unnessisarly killed rather than taking a path that lets Robo live. Your the one hating on Robo. :)
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I thought Prometheus, while not invented to "keep FATE in check", was invented as a fail safe incase it went psycho. Sort of the same concept, but more emergency-oriented rather than ultimate control. There's a quote somewhere that hints at Prometheus's creation simply to start a rebellion of some sort in the system, which is leaning me towards this belief.
Exactly. Prometheus was not there to keep FATE in check, it was simply there in case something went bad. It was there to delete FATE, and itself, if discovered.
Then why does Kato say so?
Refer to the above arguments.
What the hell. You mean it was there to make sure FATE couldn't use it for it's own greedy needs, in other words, turn itself into it's own speicies.
Anyway at Aura
If Robo was dismantled, it'd be in 2300AD, not by Lucca. Lucca was working on a circuit board, but was killed. And it wasn't on a Robo one either, it was to change Mother Brain a bit. Lucca had no time to download and memories (besides having no computer. Robots aren't computer, they're AI's), and was killed by 1015AD (atleast some think anyway).
STOP KILLING ROBO'S MEMORY! ALL OF YOU PEOPLE WHO THINK HE'S NOT SPECIAL.
... XD
All right, look here: the Prometheus circuit was placed WITHIN FATE as a sort of virus to cause a complete system failure, should FATE begin to do something for itself that eliminates its goal to protect humanity.
Secondly, what in the hell are you spouting off, exactly? We know that Lucca worked on FATE. We know that Lucca placed Robo's AI within FATE to do what I mentioned above, should things go terribly wrong.
Lastly, as pointed out by Sentenal, you would be the one trying to glorify Robo falsely, not us.
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Er, how did Lucca directly work on FATE excluding the Prometheus lock?
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I believe it is stated somewhere or another that Lucca had not only worked on the Prometheus circuit, but had helped with FATE as well. Isn't her name ingrained into FATE or something, as I recall?
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Yeah, it did say that somewhere. It's just uncertain how exactly she did that, unless she was able to communicate with the future, or Chronopois worked on a prototype she had done in her timeframe of being alive *shrug*
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I believe it is stated somewhere or another that Lucca had not only worked on the Prometheus circuit, but had helped with FATE as well. Isn't her name ingrained into FATE or something, as I recall?
Mmmmmmh, nope.
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I thought Prometheus, while not invented to "keep FATE in check", was invented as a fail safe incase it went psycho. Sort of the same concept, but more emergency-oriented rather than ultimate control. There's a quote somewhere that hints at Prometheus's creation simply to start a rebellion of some sort in the system, which is leaning me towards this belief.
Exactly. Prometheus was not there to keep FATE in check, it was simply there in case something went bad. It was there to delete FATE, and itself, if discovered.
Then why does Kato say so?
Refer to the above arguments.
What the hell. You mean it was there to make sure FATE couldn't use it for it's own greedy needs, in other words, turn itself into it's own speicies.
Anyway at Aura
If Robo was dismantled, it'd be in 2300AD, not by Lucca. Lucca was working on a circuit board, but was killed. And it wasn't on a Robo one either, it was to change Mother Brain a bit. Lucca had no time to download and memories (besides having no computer. Robots aren't computer, they're AI's), and was killed by 1015AD (atleast some think anyway).
STOP KILLING ROBO'S MEMORY! ALL OF YOU PEOPLE WHO THINK HE'S NOT SPECIAL.
... XD
All right, look here: the Prometheus circuit was placed WITHIN FATE as a sort of virus to cause a complete system failure, should FATE begin to do something for itself that eliminates its goal to protect humanity.
Secondly, what in the hell are you spouting off, exactly? We know that Lucca worked on FATE. We know that Lucca placed Robo's AI within FATE to do what I mentioned above, should things go terribly wrong.
Lastly, as pointed out by Sentenal, you would be the one trying to glorify Robo falsely, not us.
You're deglorifying him by saying that it's just a copy of him, whilst he might not exist in the new timeline like Lucca had thought. If anything, the AI is either something totally knew so Lucca wouldn't worry, or Belthasar did it to Robo and made him the circuit.
As for Epoch, it was dismantled. DISMANTLED! And there's no evidence that she ever went into the future. As for her being stated in FATE, I don't think so. The only thing that I can remember is that she inscribed her name on the new Circuit board of the Mother Board series, which was still at her house during the Burning Orphanage scene, lol.
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Lynx:
Who would have thought that
such a small bug, a '"traitor,"'
could exist inside of FATE?
That hidden circuit was based
on the initial Ashtear model
circuit board, with extra logic
added by another scientist.
FATE itself did not realize
that this circuit was present
within the core of its system.
Or, more correctly...
...the circuit was programmed
so that the moment FATE did
detect it, it would erase all
record of its detection.
Lynx:
Dr. Lucca Ashtear...
Unbelievably intelligent,
and incredibly enthusiastic.
You might even go so far as
to call her a mad scientist.
Of course I don't believe
it was Lucca alone that
devised this plan.
I'm sure the first curator
of this research center,
a man named Belthasar,
had a hand in it, too.
Not stated explicitly, nor is her name ingrained in the FATE motherboard. I was incorrect in trusting that memory. However, this should clear up any question that she had a hand in creating FATE.
You're deglorifying him by saying that it's just a copy of him, whilst he might not exist in the new timeline like Lucca had thought. If anything, the AI is either something totally knew so Lucca wouldn't worry, or Belthasar did it to Robo and made him the circuit.
As for Epoch, it was dismantled. DISMANTLED! And there's no evidence that she ever went into the future. As for her being stated in FATE, I don't think so. The only thing that I can remember is that she inscribed her name on the new Circuit board of the Mother Board series, which was still at her house during the Burning Orphanage scene, lol.
You're apparently the only one that thinks it's deglorification. Get over it. The majority > you.
And aha, so it was stated in-game. Glad I wasn't going crazy trying to remember that.
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Zaper, your still don't get it.
Copying Robo's memory does not get rid of Robo. In fact, it preserves him, rather than the alternative, which degrades him to a circuit board. Robo would still be around.
And you give me one place where it explicit states that Lucca dismantles the Epoch. She says something about it at the ending of CT, but then Crono's mom goes into the gate, and guess what! They use the Epoch to hunt her down! It was not dismantled. Get over it.
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Also, Lucca is seen walking with a "baby" Robo when she finds Kid. And Robo had a girlfriend, and I'm sure Atropos would make a fuss XD
STOP KILLING ROBO'S MEMORY! ALL OF YOU PEOPLE WHO THINK HE'S NOT SPECIAL.
WE'RE killing his memory? Atleast we're not the ones trying to imply that Lucca literally does so.
As for Epoch, it was dismantled. DISMANTLED! And there's no evidence that she ever went into the future.
Not really. They said they were going to, but then they had to go save Crono's mom and crap. Even if they did, Lucca could clearly build another. She made the Gate Key, the Telepod (that functions as a time machine on two occassions) She helped work on FATE, and she made an incomplete Time Egg (the only thing that can fux0r the laws of time-space)
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Even if they did, Lucca could clearly build another. She made the Gate Key, the Telepod (that functions as a time machine on two occassions) She helped work on FATE, and she made an incomplete Time Egg (the only thing that can fux0r the laws of time-space)
The Gate Key is just a key, not the gate. The Gates were created by the Entity not Lucca (except maybe the Red one, but it's a special stuff which only happened once).
The Telepod worked because an Entity Gate already existed.
Lucca didn't work on FATE.
Lucca made an incomplete Time Egg, not one that works.
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Lucca did work on FATE. The Promethius Circuit was a part of FATE, and it was designed to be a part of FATE. And Lucca worked on that. Its a simple if A=B, and B=C, then A=C. Lucca worked on the Promethius Circuit. The Promethius Circuit is part of FATE. So therefore, Lucca worked on FATE.
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Lynx:
Who would have thought that
such a small bug, a '"traitor,"'
could exist inside of FATE?
That hidden circuit was based
on the initial Ashtear model
circuit board, with extra logic
added by another scientist.
FATE itself did not realize
that this circuit was present
within the core of its system.
Or, more correctly...
...the circuit was programmed
so that the moment FATE did
detect it, it would erase all
record of its detection.
Lynx:
Dr. Lucca Ashtear...
Unbelievably intelligent,
and incredibly enthusiastic.
You might even go so far as
to call her a mad scientist.
Of course I don't believe
it was Lucca alone that
devised this plan.
I'm sure the first curator
of this research center,
a man named Belthasar,
had a hand in it, too.
1/ Lucca didn't work on FATE. FATE was made by some random scientists upgrading the old Mother Brain computer.
2/ Lucca didn't even made the Prometheus Circuit alone, she only made some "initial model circuit board". Belthasar was the one who actually made what we call the Prometheus Circuit.
Lucca's contribution is small. Moreover, Lynx doesn't actually know anything about Project Kid, so he's probably minimizing Belthasar's role in his speech.
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Lucca worked on the Promethius Circuit. The Promethius Circuit is part of FATE. Therefore, Lucca worked on FATE. Its simple logic.
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Not that Lucca is limited to her workings on the Prometheus circuit, which is a part of FATE, or anything.
It's fairly simple logic.
What is more amusing is that you have contradicted yourself. At first, you state she has played no hand, and now you state that she played a small role...?
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The point is that:
a.) she made the Prometheus circuit.
b.) It says that Belthasar played a hand in the ordeal, though it never states which part of the situation. Stating it to be the Prometheus circuit is an assumption.
c.) By simple logic, she created the Prometheus circuit. The Prometheus circuit is a part of FATE as much as my appendix is a part of my body.
Not that Lucca is necessarily limited to what she did with the Prometheus circuit. After all, an advanced computer from 2400 A.D. is calling her a scientific marvel.
EDIT: Oh! Deleted your post, I see.
Smooth.
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I'm speaking about Lucca's role in Project Kid. Lucca played no hand in making the actual FATE computer. She only contributed in making a random model board stuff which more than one thousands years later would be expanded by Belthasar to make the Prometheus Circuit. Thus Lucca played a small role in Project Kid, but didn't actually work on FATE.
("EDIT": I deleted my post and made a new one instead of editing the initial post, to prevent people from replying the stuff before I had finished rephrasing.)
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I'm speaking about Lucca's role in Project Kid. Lucca played no hand in making the actual FATE computer. She only contributed in making a random model board stuff which one millenium later would be expanded by Belthasar to make the Prometheus Circuit. Thus Lucca played a small role in Project Kid, but didn't actually work on FATE.
... I still don't see what you base this conclusion on. FATE was potentially created well before Project Kid was thought up. It's very doubtful that Belthasar knew of Schala's fate until Chronopolis was fully operational.
I don't see why it is you continue to argue against this: Lucca was active during FATE's creation. Lucca propagated the Prometheus circuit, which was implemented into FATE. Thus, it was a part of FATE. Now, we know she made the Prometheus circuit, which we KNOW is a part of the FATE computer complex. We do not know if she worked on more than the Prometheus circuit. However, it stands to reason that she may have worked on more than the Prometheus circuit.
There is no arguing that she created the Prometheus circuit, a part of the FATE complex.
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From the quote, it looks like Prometheus was designed using Lucca's as an example, meaning she only indirectly worked on Prometheus...but that's not to say she didn't somehow work on it in other ways directly.
Then again I'm not sure how she worked on it directly unless she did in fact go forward in time and work with them in the future, which not only doesn't make sense, but I've already been yelled at for suggesting this o_O
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What exactly made FATE go "Maverick," anyway, that Lucca would even need to create a safeguard?
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A precaution.
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I tend to think the circuitry she did in an attempt to copy Robo, like the little purple robot in the PSX CT ending movie, was just that. She had no intent of making something that would be used in such a grand scheme.
Then Belthasar took that and went from there. And not just as a precaution, as part of Project Kid, since he knew what was up and why everything would be needed where it was and stuff.
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If it was an upgraded version of the Mother Brain circuit (AKA The psychotic mastermind responsible for killing a ton of humans in 2300 A.D.), then I'd be nervous too. Enough to put a precaution :roll: .
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That hidden circuit was based
on the initial Ashtear model
circuit board, with extra logic
added by another scientist.
Okay, there. We know that Lucca wasn't the sole creator of the Prometheus Circuit, but we don't know who else actually had a hand in the engineering of the thing.
On another note, does that mean that the Prometheus circuit cannot be Robo? Of course, Lucca's contribution was the original circuit, so it's entirely possible that the "extra logic" is what makes it Robo. Further discussion may be in order here.
Oh yeah, this is my first post in quite a while. So, how has everything been?
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1) Just because Lucca strips Robo of his body and me saying he's the circuit doens't mean hes dead. He talks to Serge, for freaking hell. He still has his mind.
2)Purple Robot >.< Possible Grobyc?
3) The only scientist that could have helped Lucca is either Luccia or Belthasar. Luccia said her and Lucca worked together on stuff, so anything can be possible here.
4) Don't confuse yourself with time lines. Like Sentenal said in a different post, when they come back from beating Lavos, time doesn't change till 1999AD where theres a new future and up to 2400AD, the time crash occurs.
Now, this is the irony. Since there was no Kid in the time line till after the time crash, that means that no orphanage was discovered. Belthasar appears in 2300AD in a good future, and FATE is accomplished. Now, after the time crash, do you think only then Lucca would have reasons to build the Prometheus Circuit or even a mother board model because it would be Belthasars wish. Basically, I remember hearing that Chronopolis exists both in 2400AD and 7600BC. Going to it like steps into the future etc. So if Lucca built the Circuit in in time crashed time line, one day it may truely have gone to the future Chronopolis. Then theres the whole obduction thing. If Lucca had the circuit in her house or anything, it would have been burnt and destroyed. BTW, where was that purple robot there at the time? >.>
5) Listen to Masato and the interview.
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4) Don't confuse yourself with time lines. Like Sentenal said in a different post, when they come back from beating Lavos, time doesn't change till 1999AD where theres a new future and up to 2400AD, the time crash occurs.
Now, this is the irony. Since there was no Kid in the time line till after the time crash, that means that no orphanage was discovered. Belthasar appears in 2300AD in a good future, and FATE is accomplished. Now, after the time crash, do you think only then Lucca would have reasons to build the Prometheus Circuit or even a mother board model because it would be Belthasars wish. Basically, I remember hearing that Chronopolis exists both in 2400AD and 7600BC. Going to it like steps into the future etc. So if Lucca built the Circuit in in time crashed time line, one day it may truely have gone to the future Chronopolis. Then theres the whole obduction thing. If Lucca had the circuit in her house or anything, it would have been burnt and destroyed. BTW, where was that purple robot there at the time? >.>
Doesn't mean Lucca can't fool around making a Robo prototype circuitry.
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Of course, i'm just saying people need to address which time line they're talking about.
Also, once the dimensions are healed and everything is in place, would Lucca even build the circuit board or anything?
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Why not? Research, design, science and all that are her passion in life. I see no reason for her to not do anything like that. It's what she enjoys. It's a challenge to her, it's nostalgic, it's...yeah.
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5) Listen to Masato and the interview.
Naturally, I forgot that Kato has already told us the circuit is definitely, in some way or another, Robo.
Or were you addressing something else? It's hard to follow who your items are directed to if you don't make a note of what you're responding to.
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In some way or another...
Essence of Robo, anybody?
We could, you know, drop this, because no definitive answer can be met. It's just person 1 arguing with persons 2, 3 and 4, with nothing to go on.
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Good point. Besides, it doesn't really matter once the game is finished.
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There's a reason why this is a character analysis forum.
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Yea, but I think we've already analyzed this topic to the point beyond exhaustion.
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Dammit, Zaper.
There is no conclusive answer. Did you catch that?
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I seriously doubt anyone would come to an agreement within a reasonable timeframe.
Suggestion: Let's just drop it and change the subject.