Chrono Compendium
Enhasa Halls - Chrono Series Analysis => History, Locations, and Artifacts => Topic started by: JustinS1985 on December 19, 2003, 07:20:18 pm
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I've been thinking about the dreamstone we find in CT, and how we have always just assumed that it is simply a good conducter of Lavos energy, but I think that there may be more to it than that. I think that the dreamstone may be able to conform itself to the owners wishes/their dreams. That is how the stone got it's name. For example, Queen Zeal's dream was to attain the power of Lavos, so the dreamstone was formed into the mammon machine, which was able to conduct Lavos power, while melchior's dream was to forge amazing weapons, hence the Masamune. Also masa and mune are refered to as Melchior's dreams. So what do ya'll think about this? Post-exam delirium? or does it have merit?
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Also, the Entity/Earth 's dream was to make Crono view its memories (the time gates)...
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According to Chrono Cross, the Dreamstone is a fragment of Lavos' shell. I had a strange power on the humans which resulted in their becoming intelligent. So when they say that dreamstone shaped peoples dreams in Chrono Trigger, it's just a different way of saying that Lavos made them intelligent.
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really?
weren't the dreamstones already here in 6,000,000BC before Lavos' coming??
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Yes, but I think that it's just pieces that hit the Earth before him.
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I believe that is a common misconception, along with the rumor that the Frozen Flame is composed of Dreamstone. If it were, then all Dreamstone, as parts of Lavos' shell, would thus have to hold the qualities of the Flame as well. But in fact, Dreamstone is never mentioned in the script of Chrono Cross.
Perhaps we must examine the energy that Dreamstone conducts. Lavos absorbs the energy of the planet, yet outputs emanations that cause distortions in time and space. Which of these might Dreamstone channel -- the chaotic energy of Lavos, or the power of the planet being absorbed?
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If you can Zeality, play through the Chronopolis part of Cross again, they mention that the growth of humans was because of a "Red Rock". In Trigger, they call the Dreamstone a red rock, and they say that it is what caused the humans to achieve their dreams. As to your question, my belief is that it channels the energy of Lavos, because as the game mentions several times, humans are the "Prodigy of Lavos" which would lead me to believe that they are becoming like Lavos and thus receiving chaotic energy from him. Also, I think that the Frozen Flame is just a very large piece of Dreamstone, or just one that has become sentient.
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The life-forms on this planet developed from single-celled microorganisms to
protozoans... Then from fish to amphibians... from reptiles to mammals... and eventually to
humans. Beginning with a cerabral neocortexs, which only exists in higher mammals... The
anthroped brain enlarged at an accelerated pace until it became the human brain we know.
Could the reason for the abnormal development of the human brain be the biological
contamination caused by Lavos? That would mean that humans are really a heterogeneous
life-form, or "foreign matter," as far as the planet is concerned. Humans are a sudden
mutation caused by the contact with Lavos -- an alien life-form that fell to this planet
from space. That is why humans are, biologically speaking, unbalanced and half-finished.
Internally inconsistant and disconnected, the human existence is plauged by contradictions.
An incomplete species, torn between love and hatred, whose very being is self-contradictory.
>From the planet's viewpoint, humans are just destroyers and a cursed, yet perhaps pathetic,
blight on the world."
When I was still human, I was locked up here, and I have been here ever since...
This tower is a fortress belonging to the ancient Reptites... A symbol of revenge,
brought against mankind by the Dragons... With the defeat of FATE, the seal has been
broken and this tower has surfaced... In the eyes of the Dragons, we humans are the
foes... A brain that has developed abnormally to 3 times the original size in the span
of 3 million years... We humans have evolved at an enormous rate because of our
contact with Lavos's flame... In a sense, mankind is Lavos's offspring... We humans
are extraneous to this planet... Now... How will you fight, Serge...
The latter quote seals the deal by noting that contact with the Frozen Flame occurred around 3,000,000 B.C., whereas humans had long been using Dreamstone. I don't believe size is relevant, since the Mammon Machine dwarfs the stature of the Flame itself.
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But we must remember, in light of the "Could it be..." that this is just a hypothesis that is made. As I have said before, this referral to humans being "Progeny of Lavos" is unique to Chrono Cross, and as such I think is Dragon Propaganda. Certainly the human brain is more advanced than are most animals, and the murals in Fort Dragonia would profess that this is as a result of Lavos' intervention. This, however, cannot be when looking at the wider Chrono universe. As prehistoric as Ayla is, she is self conscious and has what might be termed an evolved mind. Keeping this in mind such tampering by Lavos is impossible, and the murals must be nothing more than Dragon hate literature for the race that wiped them out (and this hatred for those "apes" we see all too clearly from Azala in CT). It comes down to either trusting to the Dragon's words, or what is shown and seen by Crono in Chrono Trigger. I side with the latter.
That being said, while the Frozen Flame, ie. Lavos, is not responsible for human evolution, then it might be said that the culprit could indeed be the dreamstone itself. I am willing to guess that this was also responsible for the Reptite evolution, but that is an entirely different matter, and likely occured centuries before. All along the Dragons say that the earth despises humans...and yet it is they, not the Reptites that save it. It was not they, but the Reptites, that doomed it with the summoning of Lavos. Perhaps the earth saw all too well that the Reptites would die; perhaps humans were the "plan B" as it were. The Dreamstone is certainly a magical thing that is of this earth. That being said if it is the culprit for both Reptite and human rise, both races rose according to the will of the "entity". Though I would like to imagine this entity as God, or perhaps fate, I am certain that it is meant to be the planet. This would cast much doubt on the incessant dragon/reptite claims that humans are something of a plague or misfit to the planet. They are different in skill, certainly, and further removed from things that grow. But maybe it is through this virture that the entity knew victory against Lavos could be accomplished, and so brought forth a new, younger race to surplant the older. Naturally the Reptites wouldn't take kindly to this, and speak evil of humanity.
I would say that the Reptites were fairer seeming, more beautiful and in tune with the earth and such, but in the end had a flaw: they could not stop Lavos. I wager that in their home dimension Lavos was never stopped.
It is an interesting thing, I believe. And in a strange parallel, might draw unadvertant comparisons with Tolkien, perhaps. The Reptites are the older race, as are the Elves. The humans are the younger born, and are destined to surplant the older. But whereas in Tolkien the Elves take this as how things must be, the Reptites fight what is fated, and are destroyed. Also in the Chrono universe it says numerous times how frail humans are; well, in Tolkien men, compared to elves, are sickly and weak seeming, though among the ranks of men there are a few that stand mighty even among the Elven Lords, and do things that even they could not do. This and the fact that Zeal bears greater resemblance to Numenor than anything else (even Atalantis). But that is a different topic, I should think.
I know this has digressed significanly from the main topic, but it all stems from the dreamstone. It is through the dreamstone, I think, that both races rose. As it says in Zeal, it gives birth to hopes and dream; this is likely what it is, the magic of hopes and dreams, of feeling and emotion. And so it can be shaped by those that hold it, it not being so much a physical thing but merely a home to the spirit, even as the body is merely the home to the spirit. Perhaps a part of the earth, even as the Frozen Flame is part of Lavos. And this theory would make the humans no strangers, but the successors to the Dragons, and in a very real sense the heroes; they who succeeded in skill where the Dragons failed of their promise.
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The Reptites didn't summon Lavos. It's an easy mistake to make, given the following quote from Azala:
Red Star! Fall! Stain the Earth... Red!
Easy to mistake that for a summoning, but the Red Star shone in the sky before that quote is spoken. After all, Lavos has a will of it's own, it was coming anyway, Azala just saw it coming.
And humans weren't a back up plan. It would seem Dinopolis was, a back up plan to try to reinstate the Reptite rule in the post-Lavos Timelines.
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Ah, good point. I am always at variance whether or not Azala summoned Lavos or not. True enough, it is more than likely it was simply a prediction, and not anything to do with Azala herself.
And point taken on Dinopolis as well. The only defence of my theory I can give in this regard is that perhaps plan B failed as well, and that was plan C. In this regard humans might well have been the backup but, after eliminating Lavos once (ie Crono), they subsequently let themselves fall under his power, as seen with FATE. The earth, seeing this greivous failure, and knowing that humans only did half the job, summoned for itself its old children in an attempt to finish the job, or at least keep the humans from falling to the evil of Lavos. Of course it was a failed attempt, as Dinopolis itself fell under Lavos' corruption, and it is up to humanity to come to the salvation of the earth once again, proving themselves ever the true heroes. Serge is plan D, maybe? No doubt the earth likes its beloved elder children the Reptites the best (even as Gaia in the ancient Greek ones loves the anciet Titans and Giants above the upstart Gods), but when it comes right down to it, for whatever reason, fate maybe, it is always humans, whatever their flaws may be, that come to its rescue. This is the best theory I can come up with in the constrains of the evolutionary world of CT/CC. I am not usually taken to thinking in such a manner with evolution and an earth entity and all, and so my philosophising and theorising suffers a little.
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Gaspar calls it a prehistoric mineral. Does this have any relevance?
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The Dreamstone would have had to undergo a lot to become what Ayla held in her hand to give to Crono. Remember that in *our* timeline, we are just unsurfacing gems that used to be dinosaurs and other life; several ways for Ayla to have a well formed gem:
1.) The Dreamstone is of Volcanic origin and thus a newly formed gem (Unlikely since Zeal is capable of mining it to build the mammon machine and other things. However, after seeing the active magma in Prehistoric Age, its not a complete impossibility.) However, gems created in this manner are not known for being very hardy when used as construction materials. They are not durable, and less likely to survive for long periods of time.
2.) The gem is a small 'meteorite' that fell from Lavos early; however, this is also hard to imagine, since there would have to have been One HECK of a meteor shower of Red stones that fell with Lavos. This could also be more plausible if it just broke off of Lavos as he burrowed under the earth, creating a seam of Red crystals that would lead too Lavos. However, The environmental conditions (The coldness the villagers complain of; reduced animal population) could be the result of a massive meteor shower that kicked dust into the atmosphere... Perhaps Azala's prediction was not only an omen of disaster and bloodshed, but a prediction regarding how Lavos would rule by salting the earth with his red stones?
3.) The gem could have been cooking in the earth for years, since the beginning of time. The only question would be how the humans got their hands on it in the first place; considering they did not seem to have any motivation for mining. Mining typically evolves after farming, when the need for construction materials and bargaining pieces appears. Ayla's tribe used natural items for bargaining chips, thus I dont think they would have mined for those kind of materials.
Thus, unless the Red Stone have found its way to the surface by itself through natural erosion and tectonic movement: like field stones; the Red Stone might have been a throwaway of the Reptites, who DID have a mineral dependent society. Just think, the reptites might have evolved through the entities plans using the dreamstone. As a society grows it gets harder to control resources, and some of it falls into the palms of a less sophisticated race: the humans. These ape descendents evolve due to the leftover energy eminating from the dreamstone, and become a threat to the Reptites, who cant have anyone competing with them; Darwins survival of the fittest. The Reptites would have won however (Creating one of the CT timelines), if Lavos had not of come and created the Ice Age that killed off the Reptites. With the Entities influence dwindling slightly, Lavos used the dreamstones, something already tuned to biological energy, to jumpstart human evolution thricefold, getting them ready for the genetic devouring that is too come.
This could also be what seperates that world from all the others, that specific genetic 'edge' that focuses that Lavos to the planet. These crystals were not necessary, just something the entity and then Lavos used to steer the planet.
Could the entity have originally slowly controlled human/reptite evolution through the red stone until Lavos appeared, who overrode this biological/spiritual capacitor and put the humans on evolutionary overdrive?
Oops, longer then originally intended.
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Here's my blip fo yous gangsta wannabees out thiz-air.
Lavos can indeedily be seen before Azala makes that quote. When you're up on the mountain (all the names in the Prehistoric Era are lost on me, I must go back and play again sometime) getting the Dactyls, he can be seen above as the "Red Star".
As for Dreamstone...
I have always thought of it as the Earth giving the heroes an edge over Lavos. I thought it was always apparent that Dreamstone came from the earth, in what manner? I suppose that Volcanic Theory would be plausible, I mean, Dreamstone IS magical in nature, no?
Also, I've almost always thought that Dreamstone WERE sentient! Masa & Mune can reside within the Red Knife/Masamune and I think it's thusly plausible that Doreen resides within The Pendent/Astral Amulet (this would correspond with where the heck she pops up from in CC when the MasterMune is formed by the three of them). Although I suppose this isn't backed up by the Mammon Machine, I wasn't sure that it was fully created with Dreamstone, or only had SOME Dreamstone.
On another note, the Dreamstone/Masamune/Red Knife does seems to absorb magical energy as can be seen in two fights in the game. First in Magus' Palace against Magus. Here it absorbs his Magical Defence. And secondly in the Ocean Palace when Frog can use the Masamune against the Mammon Machine to absorb its stored magical energy.
Uhm...I either forgot if I was going any further with this and/or am done and think I've made at least one point that's relevent...
~<*END TRANSMISSION*>~
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5. Enlightened v Earthbound: Picture the world of 65,000,000 BC with the Red Rock. If I remember right, someone in CT claims it was once used as currency. We know that Ayla had the largest chunk of anyone in the village. Now, imagine what would happen if the Red Rock began to take on Lavos' power - and become Dreamstone. Who would possess it? The weathy. The powerful. The leaders. Over time they begin to notice that the Red Rock has taken on strange properties. Not only do these people have greater amounts of the rock, but they also have the capacity to gain more of it for themselves. The emergence of the Enlightened v Earthbound struggle might be explained as an extention of good 'ol class struggle.
Interesting implications in number five. That's a good idea on how Zeal might have been initially started; the only far reaching difficulty is that it suggests Ayla's ancestry would have become Zealians, negating Marle's status as her descendant -- for the Zeal line ended with Schala and Janus; otherwise, Crono and co. would return to a very different 1000 A.D. Of course, it is certainly possible that someone else came to power as Chief after Ayla died. Kino didn't look like the strongest guy in the bunch, after all, and the status of Chief was based on merit.
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I seem to remember it saying that the Zealians themselves (zealites? Zelots?) used to use the sunstone for power until they started using the dreamstone.
Even if that wasn't explicitly stated (I'll try and look it up now) the fact that the sunpalace looks to be Zeal manufactured implies that Zeal used the stone at some point.
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Ayla's village wasn't the only one however.
The other village had a chief/elder who might have had some dreamstone. Also, the members of that village had purple hair. At some point in time (they had almost 65 million years to try) they could have taken control and then after Zeal fell the Guardia line would have picked up the slack. The members of the non-Ayla village (sorry I can't remember the name) chose to hide from the reptites rather than fight, which may have been an indication of improved mental development (not lavos-based, but maybe a precursor?).
I don't think it is likely but I should mention it anyway, could Lavos's power reached earth a significant amount of time before his arrival?
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Ioka and Laruba are the tribes.
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When I was still human, I was locked up here, and I have been here ever since...
This tower is a fortress belonging to the ancient Reptites... A symbol of revenge,
brought against mankind by the Dragons... With the defeat of FATE, the seal has been
broken and this tower has surfaced... In the eyes of the Dragons, we humans are the
foes... A brain that has developed abnormally to 3 times the original size in the span
of 3 million years... We humans have evolved at an enormous rate because of our
contact with Lavos's flame... In a sense, mankind is Lavos's offspring... We humans
are extraneous to this planet... Now... How will you fight, Serge...
The latter quote seals the deal by noting that contact with the Frozen Flame occurred around 3,000,000 B.C., whereas humans had long been using Dreamstone. I don't believe size is relevant, since the Mammon Machine dwarfs the stature of the Flame itself.
I don't want to sound like an ass but how do you figure the date of 3,000,000 B.C.? All that quote says is that 3 million years is the span at which the evolutionary process occured. For all we know it could have been from 65,000,000 B.C. to 62,000,000 B.C., since that is when the flame separated from Lavos. Just seems a little odd to me, thats all.
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er this may e an old thread but i have to ask WHY do so many people belive that the dragonians are always right they say that the FF caused humans to evolved from apes when we see ayla and that already there not as apes who are stupid caus if they had there brain size 3 timesed in 1000AD they would be alot smarter considering how smart ayla is besides thats what the dragonians BELIVED to happend while we saw what actualy happened to to CT ....or since the other village hid in the forest and had blue hair and in CC it states that the timid apes hid in the forests mabye it was the other village that came into contact with the flame developed better mental development and magic and after mills of years the bod between villages became forrgoten and the other vilage inslaved ioka while ioka vilage later to form guardia due to ayla being marles ancestor devloped no magic powers but then why did crono and co suddenly became able to unlock the abillity to use magic the answer is this since the zealians developed the gene that let them use magic and after zeal was destroyed he remaing few zealians ended up living with the earthbound ones ,the zealians passed the gene onto the next generation of children and since then the gene became dorment and only could be brought back into a non-dorment state by say spekko and this may account why the planet/entity hates and likes the humans at the same time cause the other village hated the reptiles while ioka dident like them they dident hate them as proved by ayla when she wants azealia(did i spell that right?) to come with them after killing the black tyranno so the planet hated the other village after they came into contact with the flame and enslaved ioka when azealia(er?? spelling) ask if the heavens/entity had sided with the apes this isent true the entity knew that lavos would fall and the ice age would kill the reptile's so it did nothing to intervene it originally made it so the humans would live with the reptles ill stop now before i completly go off topic srry
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The Earthbound Ones didn't seem to have decreased mental capacity, they just weren't to be able to use magic--after the fall of Zeal, one of the former Enlightened Ones says that no distinction remains between them and the Earthbound Ones. Also, not all of the Enlightened Ones died, and over 13000 years the genetic marker for magic would be passed down from generation to generation and would find it's way into the majority of the humans, if not all of the humans. 13000 years is a long time.
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thats what i said though i may have put it differently i was sugesting that the FF gave the enlightend ones the power to use magic i simply quoted some from chrono cross srry i should have said that in it but the date that the chronopolis had was wrong what they said what happend the #x brain size thing happened way before they predicted
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Yeah, I don't know about that 3 times increase in brain size thing, Ayla and the Ioka aren't THAT stupid.
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To simply put it this way, Chronopolis was right about the brain thing. It would have happened regardless, but the Flame significantly sped the process up, creating "flawed creatures"--according to the Reptites, who I honestly believe are not credible due to their bias against humans. The difference between those in Zeal, and the Earthbound is likely a difference in exposure, or proximity.
Think about it, once it was discovered how powerful this object was, it would likely become a well-guarded treasure. The tribe that held the Flame would probably have been the one to eventually become Zeal--the CT equivalent of some legends of Atlantis--Which is where 1 of 2 things would probably account for magic.
Exposure
Zeal held the Frozen Flame, and once the Mammon Machine was built, it channeled more of the same energy. This energy may have fueled Magic within its citizens once absorbed by the radiating energies. This would also account for certain people (Magus) having their power permanently drained by Lavos.
Proximity
Since the Flame was kept thousands of miles above ground in the kingdom, the Zealians were far closer to it. Perhaps everybody had the ability to use magic, but only those near the flame could use it. There are several holes in this theory. As to why Serge and Co can't use magic when they're next to it, and why Magus can still use Magic in 600 A.D.
Of course, feel free to help/kill either of those theories.
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While the Frozen Flame evolved the humans to be able to use magic, they didn't get their magic from the Frozen Flame. They originally got their magic from the Sun Stone, and then the Mammon Machine.
And what do you mean by Magus having his magic drained by Lavos? Magus was an innate--Lavos couldn't take Magus's magic away because Lavos wasn't the source (not directly at least). With the Enlightened Ones who survived the fall of Zeal, Lavos could take their magic away because they were not innates, they relied on the Mammon Machine for their powers.
What I meant by the brain thing is that 3x the brain mass is a big number, considering that the Ioka's heads don't look to be half as small as the evolved people's heads.
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i just thought of something maby when the FF was found ioka village gave it to the other village because they werent as brave or good fighter since he other village is quite far away from ioka the people of ioka village wernt affcted or not so much as too make a difference while the ther village had the gene that allowed them to use magic and after ioka was inslaved the other village seperated into 2 classs royalty and whatever well he royalty would have kept the FF with them and they probally distanced them selves from the lower class so the lower class were then affectted less by the flame this allowed them to use magic while near a source of great energy being radiated i.e FF, mamon machine whil thr royalty were affected more and became innate magic users and so they could use magic anywhere since you dont see the FF anywhere in CT it denounces this theory but maby the FF was used as th core for the mamon machine and it teleported to the pocket dimension where you fight the mamon machineand stayed there to emerge later in 1020 AD in ...
(damn forgot CC place damn mind blanks)
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While the Frozen Flame evolved the humans to be able to use magic, they didn't get their magic from the Frozen Flame. They originally got their magic from the Sun Stone, and then the Mammon Machine.
They scrapped the Sun Stone in favor of Lavos's energy. The idea to build the Mammon machine--which would provide the same power as the Flame, just more of it--came from the fact that Lavos was strong, if not for the flame, how else would they know of him?
And what do you mean by Magus having his magic drained by Lavos? Magus was an innate--Lavos couldn't take Magus's magic away because Lavos wasn't the source (not directly at least). With the Enlightened Ones who survived the fall of Zeal, Lavos could take their magic away because they were not innates, they relied on the Mammon Machine for their powers.
I believe that's the commonly accepted IC reason for why he loses all his boss-like abilities. Lavos drains his power in the Ocean Palace disaster.
What I meant by the brain thing is that 3x the brain mass is a big number, considering that the Ioka's heads don't look to be half as small as the evolved people's heads.
I guess our brains just fit more snugly in our heads :lol:
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And what do you mean by Magus having his magic drained by Lavos? Magus was an innate--Lavos couldn't take Magus's magic away because Lavos wasn't the source (not directly at least). With the Enlightened Ones who survived the fall of Zeal, Lavos could take their magic away because they were not innates, they relied on the Mammon Machine for their powers.
I believe that's the commonly accepted IC reason for why he loses all his boss-like abilities. Lavos drains his power in the Ocean Palace disaster.
Ah, ok. I didn't know if that was what you were talking about.
What I meant by the brain thing is that 3x the brain mass is a big number, considering that the Ioka's heads don't look to be half as small as the evolved people's heads.
I guess our brains just fit more snugly in our heads :lol:
Quite, but whereas a human brain is around the size of a canteloupe, 3x smaller than that is a golf ball. I find it hard to believe that the prehistoric tribes were capable of intelligent thought, let alone speech, with a brain the same size as an ostrich's. (Although if that's the case, Spekkio was being nice when saying why he couldn't give Ayla magic. :lol: )
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I myself did the calculations since my last post. It seems somewhat exaggerated. Perhaps it is. Perhaps the scientist was just trying to make it sound more interesting.
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In the eyes of the Dragons, we humans are the
foes... A brain that has developed abnormally to 3 times the original size in the span
of 3 million years... We humans have evolved at an enormous rate because of our
contact with Lavos's flame...
Maybe the "original size" doesn't correspond to the humans from Ayla's era. Before touching the Frozen Flame, the human species did evolve naturally from real apes etc. Perhaps the face is actually referring to a less evolved kind of primate (Homininae or something), or the apes who first made contact with the Dreamstone and became conscious, I don't know.
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When I was still human, I was locked up here, and I have been here ever since...
This tower is a fortress belonging to the ancient Reptites... A symbol of revenge,
brought against mankind by the Dragons... With the defeat of FATE, the seal has been
broken and this tower has surfaced... In the eyes of the Dragons, we humans are the
foes... A brain that has developed abnormally to 3 times the original size in the span
of 3 million years... We humans have evolved at an enormous rate because of our
contact with Lavos's flame... In a sense, mankind is Lavos's offspring... We humans
are extraneous to this planet... Now... How will you fight, Serge...
The latter quote seals the deal by noting that contact with the Frozen Flame occurred around 3,000,000 B.C., whereas humans had long been using Dreamstone. I don't believe size is relevant, since the Mammon Machine dwarfs the stature of the Flame itself.
I don't want to sound like an ass but how do you figure the date of 3,000,000 B.C.? All that quote says is that 3 million years is the span at which the evolutionary process occured. For all we know it could have been from 65,000,000 B.C. to 62,000,000 B.C., since that is when the flame separated from Lavos. Just seems a little odd to me, thats all.
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In the eyes of the Dragons, we humans are the
foes... A brain that has developed abnormally to 3 times the original size in the span
of 3 million years... We humans have evolved at an enormous rate because of our
contact with Lavos's flame...
Maybe the "original size" doesn't correspond to the humans from Ayla's era. Before touching the Frozen Flame, the human species did evolve naturally from real apes etc. Perhaps the face is actually referring to a less evolved kind of primate (Homininae or something), or the apes who first made contact with the Dreamstone and became conscious, I don't know.
Well, it's never been determined whether Dreamstone has anything to do with the humans' evolution in the first place. And it had to be the prehistoric humans who evolved from the FF, because if not then we'd have to throw Marle's geneology out the window.
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Well, it's never been determined whether Dreamstone has anything to do with the humans' evolution in the first place. And it had to be the prehistoric humans who evolved from the FF, because if not then we'd have to throw Marle's geneology out the window.
I know but, I was just pointing out that we don't know what "original size" the face is speaking about. The span at which the brain evolution process occured is 3 million years, but we don't know if the face (or maybe just the Dragons, actually) is counting only the evolution provoked by the Frozen Flame, or the complete human evolution (from the first natural human to the modern human being).