Chrono Compendium
Enhasa Halls - Chrono Series Analysis => Reality, Real-World Connections, and the Supernatural => Topic started by: Burning Zeppelin on September 25, 2005, 07:10:11 am
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I heard in a certain post that if you put the swords in a river with leaves, the masamune will push them aside while the Murasame will cut them. This interests me because these swords are in almost all the recent FF's. What is the connection? And what of the other swords, like the "Zantetsuken" of FF8?
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There are 7 legendary Japanese swords. They include the Masamune and the Murasame. And Square Enix and other companys usual use these swords in their games. Even Golden Sun and a few other series used it. In legend, the Murasame possessed the evil of some really bad ass dude, whilst the Masamune was holy and a gift from a goddess, i think Oo
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The Seven Swords include:
Kusanagi-found by Susanoo when he encountered a grieving family who told him they were being tormented by an Opochi, an 8 headed snake monster. When he killed it, he found Kusanagi in it's throat. It gives it's owner the power to control wind. The second most powerful weapon in the world next to....
Amenonuhoko-Used by Izanagi and Izanami to create the islands of Japan by churning the water. It basically created the world, since in mythology all other landmasses grew from former Japanese islands.
Tonbogiri-created by Masamune's rival Muramasa, and when a fly landed on it's blade it was instantly cut in two. The Sword of Destruction.
Tokugawa-This sword was made by Masamune to defeat Muramasa. It is linked to death and was destined to defeat Muramasa. However, the sword was clouded by Masamune's lose of judgement, saw it's creator in the mirror (who looks just like Muramasa if you flipflop him) and killed him instead.
Masatada-a failed attempt at Masamune and Muramasa made to settle their differences. They tried to make a sword of friendship that could kill any foe, but when it was stolen and used to kill a shogun, they started blaming each other and went back to fighting.
Mumei Wakazashi- A sword that would never need restoration and would always remain beautiful and fresh. However, it's made out of pure gold, so it's completely useless as a sword.
and of course...
Masamune-The sword that started it all. This is the sword that caused the bitter rivalry between Masamune and Muramasa. The Emperor was amazed and delighted after seeing that Masamune's sword was able to magically repel leaves and similar small objects. It had an aura of peace and serenity, and anyone who tried to use it for evil died a horrible death by the very sword they wanted to corrupt.
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Kinda ironic that the Masamune is the widly known sword while the Murasame is ingnored.
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Kinda ironic also that the Masamune is a katana and the Granleon (which was renamed "Masamune" in the American CT) is a broadsword...
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and the Granleon (which was renamed "Masamune" in the American CT) is a broadsword...
It just happens to be a broadsword when Gleen and Cyrus used it. It changes forms with the user.
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It just happens to be a broadsword when Gleen and Cyrus used it. It changes forms with the user.
Or when mistranslations happen...
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and the Granleon (which was renamed "Masamune" in the American CT) is a broadsword...
It just happens to be a broadsword when Gleen and Cyrus used it. It changes forms with the user.
Huh? It was always a broadsword (except when it was still the uncomplete Red Knife I suppose). Melchior, Crono, Cyrus, Frog, the mysterious caped and long-haired dude from Guardia's fall (tm), Radius, and Dario all used the Masamune and it was always a broadsword.
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Kinda ironic also that the Masamune is a katana and the Granleon (which was renamed "Masamune" in the American CT) is a broadsword...
I noticed that, too.
I always thought the Masamune, as a katana, should go to Crono, while Glenn should get a broadsword along the lines of Excalibur.
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When was the Masamune a katana? I know it was in FF4, and wasn't it a katana for Edge? It was in FF1 too. I've never heard of the Murasame. Wait, are you saying that the swords are concious beings, like the Murasame created a sword that was the essence of destruction.
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If the mythological Masamune has its origin in Japanese Mythology, why would it be anything other than a Japanese Sword, a Katana?
And I believe that Edge is able to get both the Masamune and the Murasame as his swords in FF4.
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It was a katana in mythology, but since the world of CT seems a tad western.
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SC also has the Masamune. I said it just for the sake it.
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Yeah, Golden Sun also has the Masamune and Muramasa (Sp?).
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If the mythological Masamune has its origin in Japanese Mythology, why would it be anything other than a Japanese Sword, a Katana?
The holy sword in CT was called Grandleon in the Japanese version. It was named so in order to give an exotic feeling (Grandleon sounds Western). The American translator decided to rename the sword "Masamune", to keep the exotic feeling (Grandleon wouldn't be as cool as Masamune, for non-Japanese people).
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So were Masa and Mune really called Grand and Leon? Just curious.
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So were Masa and Mune really called Grand and Leon? Just curious.
Yeah, Masa is Gran, Mune is Leon, and Doreen is Dream.
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In Japanese history, wasn't Masamune the name of the guy who first developed the Katana. Thats where the confusion of the Seven swords is coming from. Masamune is referring at once to a Sword, but when it says Masamune made a sword or made war on his brother, it is referring to the smith.
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Well I guess that explains the mystery of why the masamune isn't a katana. I'm depressed now, I feel like part of my childhood was a lie, what with the masamune not being the masamune. =(
~ (http://i1.tinypic.com/mmv0j4.gif)
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Murasame is also the name of Sephiroth's Katana.
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Murasame is also the name of Sephiroth's Katana.
Because that's the evil brother of Masamune.
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Murasame is also the name of Sephiroth's Katana.
Because that's the evil brother of Masamune.
I thought his katana was the Masamune?
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Murasame is also the name of Sephiroth's Katana.
Because that's the evil brother of Masamune.
I thought his katana was the Masamune?
Same here...
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Note: RPG's are not credible sources of information of Japanese blacksmithery.
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Masamune is Seph's Katana...
Masamune was one of Japan's fabled swordsmith's. He was indeed a Katana crafter. Murasame was another swordsmih, told to be Masamune's student. According to myth, Murasame challenged his 'master' to see who could make the finer sword. When the swords were done, they put them in a small creek. Murasame's blade cut through whatever it passed, while the Masamune cut nothing. A monk said that while Murasame's was a fine blade, it was evil and bloodthirsty. Masamune's was better, because it doesn't harm the innocent.
If you look at the Masamune as a sword of justice, then yes, Murasame would be it's evil counterpart. If not, then no.
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Actually, to elaborate, Murasame's sword wasn't evil, so much that it was aggressive, brash, and relied on brute force. It had no beauty in it's slicing and no grace in it's swinging. Murasame's swords were weapons while Masamune's were works of art.
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Note: RPG's are not credible sources of information of Japanese blacksmithery.
Pfft. Next you'll be telling us Anime is a poor source of Japanese culture, history, and myths.
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I would not really trust it. After all look at the Masamune... that looks a lot more like a Grandleon than a Masamune.
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Pfft. Next you'll be telling us Anime is a poor source of Japanese culture, history, and myths.
I'm pretending that's a sarcastic comment. For your sake.
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Pfft. Next you'll be telling us Anime is a poor source of Japanese culture, history, and myths.
I'm pretending that's a sarcastic comment. For your sake.
If you even DARE tell me Inuyasha is not only inaccurate but something not actually ongoing in the real world to this day, I will cry and then possibly eat you.
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Pfft. Next you'll be telling us Anime is a poor source of Japanese culture, history, and myths.
I'm pretending that's a sarcastic comment. For your sake.
If you even DARE tell me Inuyasha is not only inaccurate but something not actually ongoing in the real world to this day, I will cry and then possibly eat you.
(http://www.yuanlei.com/dragonball/episodes/db/db-003-004/1-4.jpg) (http://www.farfilm.com/odds/poke.jpg)
The resembelance is uncanny.
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The resembelance is uncanny.
...er...aside from the cheekbones...how is that uncanny?
But yeah, much of anime is very strongly reflecting of Japanese culture/mythology, past or present. That's a silly thing to oppose.
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Yeah, just don't expect heaps of pink and blue hair coloured girls to run through the streets of japan, with big demons chasing them, and then a squad of people dressed in black robes to come at them and slice them with a zanpaktou. Then one of the demons (who is Inuyasha) will own them and then the world will end because it was all a distraction and Freeza was able to destroy the planet.
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Heh, I can think of much worst scenarios.
While Cell's invasion of the moon and his battle against Sailor Mercury, Sailor Chibi returned to warn Kagome of the coming crash of Naraku and his sinister plot to become the next ruler of the Namikens. To stop the chaos, Kagome builds a virtual reality called 'The World', where she traps Cell and Naraku. However, this is not enough, for Majin Buu invades the earth and commences a Duel with Yugi for his Millenium Pyramid. Who will win is anyone's guess, but one thing is certain: We are all doomed. With Inuyasha's death and Goku exploding due to over-eating and giving birth to Crono, all heroes are gone. Will the world end? Will Tokyo Tower fall? Will Sakura petals fill the planet and choke everyone? The answer to this question and more, in Legend's Anime theater.
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...er...aside from the cheekbones...how is that uncanny?
But yeah, much of anime is very strongly reflecting of Japanese culture/mythology, past or present. That's a silly thing to oppose.
He was being sarcastic. Also, although anime does reflect Japanese culture/mythology, it's also modified, relaxed, and changed for the convienence of the storyline. Just like we do with western religions for our stories, like that one movie where that average guy got the Powers of God and screwed around with them. Like, Joe Almighty or something.
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...er...aside from the cheekbones...how is that uncanny?
But yeah, much of anime is very strongly reflecting of Japanese culture/mythology, past or present. That's a silly thing to oppose.
He was being sarcastic. Also, although anime does reflect Japanese culture/mythology, it's also modified, relaxed, and changed for the convienence of the storyline. Just like we do with western religions for our stories, like that one movie where that average guy got the Powers of God and screwed around with them. Like, Joe Almighty or something.
That movie was retarded...
But no duh it is modify. People change and so does culture, but obviously there are some connections.
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It was Bruce Almighty by the way.
Kenshin was the anime that I found had the most historical accuracy. Obviously they warped the facts a bit, but it still has some facts left in it.
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Bruce Almighty was hilarious, I loved it.
I hate Inuyasha, and Naruto never struck me as anything special.
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My mistake about the FFVII swords, by the way.
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And everyone knows the world will end in 2015AD when a blue-haired albino girl eats an Angel through a pedophile's hand, grows into a giant, and sucks all the souls of mankind into her stigmata, thus turning everyones' bodies into Tang.
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My mistake about the FFVII swords, by the way.
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And everyone knows the world will end in 2015AD when a blue-haired albino girl eats an Angel through a pedophile's hand, grows into a giant, and sucks all the souls of mankind into her stigmata, thus turning everyones' bodies into Tang.
Someone has been watching Evangelion.
Oh and Bruce Almigthy for the win.
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And everyone knows the world will end in 2015AD when a blue-haired albino girl eats an Angel through a pedophile's hand, grows into a giant, and sucks all the souls of mankind into her stigmata, thus turning everyones' bodies into Tang.
NUH UH! Some teenage kid is going to watch his father get eaten by the blue haired albino, then poof away the universe as he has a philosophical conversation with himself, gets warped into an alternate universe where his life is a comical romance high school anime, and then find himself walking ontop of the Solar System highfiving everyone he knows as his mom's robotic corpse drifts through space with a big helix spear.
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And everyone knows the world will end in 2015AD when a blue-haired albino girl eats an Angel through a pedophile's hand, grows into a giant, and sucks all the souls of mankind into her stigmata, thus turning everyones' bodies into Tang.
NUH UH! Some teenage kid is going to watch his father get eaten by the blue haired albino, then poof away the universe as he has a philosophical conversation with himself, gets warped into an alternate universe where his life is a comical romance high school anime, and then find himself walking ontop of the Solar System highfiving everyone he knows as his mom's robotic corpse drifts through space with a big helix spear.
I like Tang...
The Masamune's been in half the Square games that have ever been released. It's present in VII, VIII, and X, and all the games that don't have the Masamune have the Excalibur. I would actually have preferred that they called the sword Granleon, as it's much more accurate.
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Yeah it really is...
Granleon would imply some massive French sword... which is more accurate than a katana.
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Wait..
Is the Masamune actually written as Masamune in the Japanese version, and it means GrandLeon, or is it literally written as Gi ra n de re o n etc?
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Wait..
Is the Masamune actually written as Masamune in the Japanese version, and it means GrandLeon, or is it literally written as Gi ra n de re o n etc?
Litterally Grandleon. Masamune is a total invention by Woolsey.
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So in CC it wasn't an evil Masamune, but an evil Grandleon?
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Evil Grandleon and evil Masamune are the same thing. My real name is Roman, and nickname is, as you can see, Legend of the Past. What you said is the same as saying: "So Roman, not Legend, got a car!"
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I meant, the blood thirsty stuff from the evil Masamune in CC could be something related to the japanese legend, but if it's the Grandleon in the japanese version, and not meant to be the Masamune, this connection wouldn't be that clear.
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I meant, the blood thirsty stuff from the evil Masamune in CC could be something related to the japanese legend, but if it's the Grandleon in the japanese version, and not meant to be the Masamune, this connection wouldn't be that clear.
There's no real connection to the Masamune legend. The Japanese scenarists had Grandleon in their mind when they thought about the sword curse. It's just a coincidence that in America the sword's name has been translated as Masamune. Plus there are tons of mythological cursed swords, the Japanese Masamune isn't unique.
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Indeed. as I've said before, the Japanese could believe that ANY sword, or indeed anyTHING or anyONE could become demonic if you didn't keep it clean of impurities (blood, for example)
Who here watches Inuyasha? *waits for show of hands.* Guess what? All of the demons in that show were originally born from the impurities of man. Don't believe me? Naraku, villain of the show, was born entirely from the lust of one evil mortal man and some demons he conjured up. "But Aura, those demons make up for all of Naraku's power." Right, and that's why the guy's human heart is what keeps Naraku alive, right?
And I could go on with any piece of Japanese fiction Westerns might be familiar with featuring demons. That's how they were born. The impurities of Man and Kami.
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This post got me thinking and being that I'm no research expert at all, I went to the layman's knowledge database wikipedia.org.
Goro Nyudo, a Japanese swordsmith, was also known by the name Masamune. While no exact timeline of his life has been agreed upon by scholars, it is agreed that he crafted most of his swords in the early to mid 13th century in the Soshu tradition.
S-E has used the Masamune in many of their games, but its role and purpose has changed several times. While in some games it has been a character's ultimate weapon, there were several FF games where the Masamune was the weakest sword in the game. The Masamune has also run the gamut of being a tool of the righteous, much like in Chrono Trigger, or a tool of evil, such as the Masamune of Chrono Cross or Sephiroth's blade in Final Fantasy VII. Also, while tradition states that swords of Masamune were katanas, the Masamune swords found in S-E's role-playing games have taken several forms such as a broadsword or a katana.
Just wanted to clear up any info that had been left out of earlier posts :D
And you can find more info on the Masamune here...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masamune
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ugh... geeze you people...
Masamune and Murasame are not A sword but rather a set of swords created by 2 men, Masamune and Muramasa. Masamune's swords were almost all made during a time of peace and most of his business came from famillies wanting a blessed sword for their houses to ward off evilness, While Muramasa was a student of Masamune or his student's student and was alive during an age of war and he was supposedly hate and jealousy of Masamune that when he created a sword evilness poured into it.
It is said that if you take a masamune sword and place it in a river and leave pass by it the sword with pass along without damaging the leaves, while if you do the same thing with the murasame the leaves will be cut in two.
It is also said to be very dangerous to handle a murasame sword because they are said to have a blood thirst. It is a legend that if you unsheath one it will not return to it's sheath unless it draws blood from someone, this includes the wielder of the sword itself.
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Thanks for bringing back a three month old thread to repeat something I'VE already said. *eyeroll*
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That Masamune/Murasame stuff has been put in the Real World Influences article since 2004 anyway.
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unfortunately the info that was given was wrong...correcting was needed so i corrected...and most of the stuff on the forums is months old v.v I don't look at the dates just how close to the top they are
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Thanks for bringing back a three month old thread to repeat something I'VE already said. *eyeroll*
Stick it to the man!
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In Chrono Cross isn't the Masamune a double bladed sword?
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What is a doublebladed sword? Like, 1 sword with 2 blades? Or 1 sword with 2 sides being sharp?
*note for hate topic->"I hate terms I don't understand"*
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Yes, Masamune's a double-bladed sword.
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Double-bladed means double sided.
Most common medieval swords were double bladed. An example of a none double-bladed sword would be a traditional katana.
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Don't touch me. Why is the masamune two or three different swords?
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Double-bladed means double sided.
Most common medieval swords were double bladed. An example of a none double-bladed sword would be a traditional katana.
Ah k got it, wasn't that sure, tx.
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Don't touch me. Why is the masamune two or three different swords?
It's not?
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Well, in Chrono Trigger it was a translation problem(as you can read in this topic).
In most cases, it's a katana(like Sephiroth's Blade).
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Oh.
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But Sephiroth's Masamune is longer than a katana but its sword length suggest that it is a nodachi samurai sword.
Heres what I meant...
katana= a 3 feet long samurai sword
tachi= a sword longer than a katana
nodachi= a sword longer than a tachi
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But Sephiroth's Masamune is longer than a katana but its sword length suggest that it is a nodachi samurai sword.
Heres what I meant...
katana= a 3 feet long samurai sword
tachi= a sword longer than a katana
nodachi= a sword longer than a tachi
Is a Nodachi a sort of Japanese Claymore?
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Nope, claymore is a big blunt double edge sword. European swords is more on thrusting swords than slashing swords. On the other hand, nodachi is a single edge long sword emphasize on slashing.
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Nope, claymore is a big blunt double edge sword. European swords is more on thrusting swords than slashing swords. On the other hand, nodachi is a single edge long sword emphasize on slashing.
Yes, I suppose you're right on the general use of European swords. However, Claymores were slashing swords, unless I miss my guess. I've read they were anti-cavalry, made for things like cutting the legs off charging horses. That, and I'm certain such a heavy blade could act as a twofold sword and club - it would either cut someone, or cause them great injury under their armour. I highly doubt it was a stabbing weapon, as it doesn't appear to be very pointed. But at that size, one doesn't need the sword to be sharp anymore. The reason I drew a comparison is by length. You said a Katana is 3ft (which is interesting; I didn't know that), which is probably about the normal maximum of a western sword. When you mentioned a sword two classes longer, I right away figured it like a Claymore.
As a side note, I think Viking and Celtic swords were also slashing weapons. I have one of the former and, though pointed, it has a very wide blade that isn't very tapered, so I figure it for a slashing type. For the latter, I've heard the Romans encounted the Celtic tactic of whirling the swords above their heads and then slashing them downward.
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Yes, claymore cut thru something but it not cut somthing heavily armored as the European knights because of the development of chain mail & breastplate armor. If you watch the Discovery channel, claymores are use to stun a person then stab it with the tip of the sword. But before the development of chain mail & breastplate armor it was a highly effective weapon.
Viking & Celtics swords is used as thrusting & slashing weapon and it first sword in europe that tempered as a carbonized steel sword. Lastly a 3 feet sword in Europe is considered as a short sword(example: Gladius) while in Japan it is considered as a long sword. I wouldn't blame the Japanese for calling it a long sword because 3 feet is considered long to them.
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Yes, claymore cut thru something but it not cut somthing heavily armored as the European knights because of the development of chain mail & breastplate armor. If you watch the Discovery channel, claymores are use to stun a person then stab it with the tip of the sword. But before the development of chain mail & breastplate armor it was a highly effective weapon.
Viking & Celtics swords is used as thrusting & slashing weapon and it first sword in europe that tempered as a carbonized steel sword. Lastly a 3 feet sword in Europe is considered as a short sword(example: Gladius) while in Japan it is considered as a long sword. I wouldn't blame the Japanese for calling it a long sword because 3 feet is considered long to them.
Heck, you sure seem to know a lot about swords.
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I'm always fascinated by swords so I read all about it. If you wanted know what to book to read about samurais & their sword, try to read "Books of the five rings" by Miyamoto Musashi. This dude is a legendary swordsman in Japan back in the Tokugawa Era.
By the way, the book also teaches you about battlefield psychology & combat techniques. Musashi's book can be applied to everyday life & used especially by japanese businessmen. That's reason why they're fierce in the corporate world.
But hey don't take my word for it, try to read it.
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I've read the book of the five rings and it's amazing. On the subject of the battlefield I highly reccomend Sun Tzu's (hope I spelled it right) Art of War. Both are absolutely amazing.
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Yeah, maybe some day. Right now I'm just immersing myself in learning Greek and reading western literature (ie. Homer, Seneca, Sophocles, that sort of thing); I'm going to be a Classicst, eventually. My knowledge of old combat and the like tends to come more from those sources. Especially in Homer, battles area a rather random seeming affair, with very little in the way of tactics such as the East had (though, thinking about it, it is a good deal earlier, too.) Anyway, my knowledge of Eastern wars is limited to having played Dynasty Warriors IV, so, yeah...
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Wow...I never knew these seven swords had such history and myth to them...it's amazing. They remind me of Soul Edge and Soul Calibur. Masamune and Murasame. Hmm...
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soul edge evil=murasama
soul calibur good?=masamune(ah holy sword that has power but if used to evil ...)
and yes the masamune changes form to the user when serge take it is tranformed into the mastermune dont you guys remember
:lol:
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It changes to the Mastermune because Doreen combines w/Masa & Mune, not just because Serge acquires it. Did it change before Dario got it? I think it was already like that and then he picked it up.