Chrono Compendium

Enhasa Halls - Chrono Series Analysis => Magic, Elements, and Technology => Topic started by: Empiric on December 12, 2003, 08:49:24 am

Title: Magic and Characters in CT
Post by: Empiric on December 12, 2003, 08:49:24 am
I've taken a look at the forums on magic, and I have decided something.  Whenever one does a scientific experiment you change a variable, and leave the rest the same; but this is only applicable if a process exists.  I would propose that those involved step back for a second and try to determine something:  Is all magic the same in CT and CC?  I know, I know, this is the exact topic you've been studying; but I have yet to see something on HOW magic works, not just the nature of the matter.  Remember, the concept of gravity was discovered after experiments and documentation, it could not be scientifically proven by itself without proof.  It took many experiments, and MANY misconceptions before it could be truly represented.

These are the step by step questions I would ask of each character, and when we have an answer, I would imagine a systemic, easy to understand form of magic could in fact be determined by this process if applied to each character (And they would make an interesting encyclopedia category.)  I will update the chart below when a decision has been made regarding the answer to specific questions.  Remember, I expect VERY mixed results regarding the answers to these questions, and if you think there is a question to be added, say it!  Also, this is not a thread to specifically state the nature of magic.  It is designed to be a tool to be used elsewhere.

 :idea: This shall be called:  The Magic Equation

I have updated the list as to the positions stated thus far, and have given a description of the hero casting the spell/ability to help move things along.  I added the Chi theory as presented so far.  Deleted weapon catagory.  Updated as of December 15.
Crono: Hero of Time

 :arrow: Innate Element:  Light
 :arrow: Characters Physical/Elemental aspect:  Chrono's Physical appearance is that of a warrior, fast and true.  So far, has little to nothing to do with his innate.
 :arrow: Characters Mental/Elemental aspect:  Chrono's character is one of 'pure' intentions, as he appears to have few to none malicious intentions; and is willing to save his allies.  He suffers in the fact that he has to save everyone else without regard for himself.
 :arrow: Character Abilities:  
Cyclone-  Chrono spins around in a circle with his sword.  
Slash-  Crono manipulates his internal *Chi*, creating a wave of energy that physically manifests and travels in a straight line to his foes.  Slash has the ability to counter Masa/Munes wind techniques.  
Spincut-  Crono jump attacks his opponent with his sword.
Confuse-  Chrono manipulates his Chi, taking it to an almost magic level by creating several visages of himself from light either intentionally or unintentionally.  Chrono moves amidst these images to strike at the enemy when least expects to deal 4x damage to the enemy.
 :arrow: Character Magic:  
Lightning-  Crono calls a lightning bolt.
Lightning 2-  Crono either releases stored energy which radiates around a point or the area is infused with electrical energy from outside forces.
Life-  Crono calls on a little Cherub to poke his ally back to life.
Luminaire-  Crono's Chi is manipulated to the point in which it finally gains magic properties as Chrono releases a sphere of light from his body.  The heat and transferring energy damage opposing enemies within the sphere.

Chi Theory:  Chi is a magical *aura* that a character has that reflects their personality.  Some characters have the ability to tap into their *aura* to enhance their attacks and increase their fighting potential.  Chi could be magical in nature, or it could be in part psionic.  It has yet to be determined if a character has access to chi because of Lavos or if it is a natural occurence.
Title: Magic Theorization
Post by: Lord J Esq on December 12, 2003, 09:59:06 pm
This is a wonderful topic and is overdue for its own thread, but I shan't reply to it just yet, because, while I hate to commit myself to a backlog, I believe my next major work for the Compendium following my in-progress space-time theory will simply have to be a magic theory, as this series is too inextricably tied to magic that I could dare attempt to post in most of these threads without my own, fleshed-out understanding of magical mechanics.

~ Josh
Title: Magic and Characters in CT
Post by: ZeaLitY on December 12, 2003, 10:54:17 pm
Might I first ask what set of principles we're going to work under? As far as I can tell in the Magic thread, these are generally accepted:

-Heaven, Wind, Fire, Shadow compose reality.
-Magic is the biological or mechanical manipulation of these elements.
-That elements conform to one of the following three theories:
***Spekkio is incorrect, as the designers rewrote the series by adding Chrono Cross' elements
***The Cross' elements simply utilize six natural forces, such as trees and earth, and not the true roots of the basic four
***The Cross' elements are combinations of the basic four
-Lavos imbued man with magical ability for its own evolutionary ends.
-This ability remained throughout, but was severely negated after the fall of Zeal.
-Innate colors reflect one's spiritual or mental gravitation.

Can't remember what was decided on the issues of Elements being of Dragonian or Chronopolean origin and the problem of the Time Devourer using elements...although...please excuse this in the grand scheme of things, but allow me to propose something. Consider that the Time Devourer can use his Elements an infinite number of times; true elements, however, are one-time use. Thus, perhaps Lavos is simply using magic to produce element-oriented attacks. Verdict is still out.
Title: Magic and Characters in CT
Post by: Empiric on December 12, 2003, 11:31:45 pm
It seems I failed in appropriately describing my point.  I apologize if I have given you a false impression here, but the intention of this thread is to define and catagorize the prestated notions, to develop a framework so that the thesis you have stated can be proven and irrefutibly stand as fact.

Pretend that none of the points that Zeality mentioned have even been thought about.  In this thread is wanted PROOF!  A cause/effect relationship.  When this happens, that happens.The idea is to be able to describe the process, develop a point A that will eventually lead to the point B described by Zeality.


Quote
-Heaven, Wind, Fire, Shadow compose reality.


Okay, the intention of this article is to prove this statement by taking apart each aspect and finalizing the idea.  HOW are they combined to form the basic aspects of the game?

Quote
Magic is the biological or mechanical manipulation of these elements.


Okay, how does a person manipulate them?  What somatic and verbal components are necessary?  We see the effect, but how is it acheived?

Quote
-That elements conform to one of the following three theories:
***Spekkio is incorrect, as the designers rewrote the series by adding Chrono Cross' elements
***The Cross' elements simply utilize six natural forces, such as trees and earth, and not the true roots of the basic four
***The Cross' elements are combinations of the basic four


This is where we hit the bread and butter, the end result of the equation.  If we can take the parts of CT that we understand through the process, and compare it to the same points in CC (By taking apart each character if necessary... all of em.  I feel we might get the same effect by taking apart maybe only 8-14 of the most extreme cases.  I'll discuss that later)  We may yet be able to conclude which of those theories is more correct.  We can see how the elements interract, which may prove/disprove the Spekkio analysis.  We can determine how the elements work in the same manner, which would prove/disprove the Spekkio and natural forces theories.  With this process, (And it will be a long haul, let me tell you)  We can examine the mechanics that lead to the truths that exist.

Quote

-Lavos imbued man with magical ability for its own evolutionary ends.
-This ability remained throughout, but was severely negated after the fall of Zeal.


This would not be the main ends towards which this equation is geared, but new insight on how or in what manner could probably be harvested from what is said.

Quote
-Innate colors reflect one's spiritual or mental gravitation


This theory, while Im sure is general recognized as true, will simply be run through the gauntlet.  We want the proof that leads to the result.

The entire point of this exercise is to decompose these facts/theories into their basic forms.  Yes, we know that when we heat ice it turns into water and air; but, when we discovered the molecules behind these actions it opened up a new venue of science and understanding.  Im simply curious as to where an understanding of the basic... Chemistry of magic shall take us.  
(I was pondering the use of the word Alchemy, but that would be innapropriate as to convey a sense of mysticism.  I/We want this down to a science, no blind faith necessary.)
Title: Magic and Characters in CT
Post by: V_Translanka on December 13, 2003, 05:16:34 am
A few insights from me to this thread so far...

Slash is a Magical attack. If you don't want to go so far as to call it so, since Crono learns this before obtaining Magical ability from Spekkio, then it is a form of spiritual energy.

Elements are from the earth (possibly residue from Lavos?) and were founded by the Dragonians (this is said either by a NPC or the Toma relative in CC at White Dragon Isle). It was said that the Dragonians found specific points in the earth (power points) where they could draw Elements from.

Dragonians (and Demi Humans) are said to have been around a hundred years before humans came from the continent to El Nido. This is said by a NPC on the steps in White Dragon Isle. So it could be said that it wouldn't be possible for Chronopolis to manipulate their (the Dragonians) foundings of the Elements.

Although, this NPC statement doesn't seem too possible as most of El Nido didn't exist before Chronopolis manipulated things. Of course, Gaea's Navel DID exist, and it's possible that THIS is where the Dragonians originated/found the Elements. Again though, the earlier statement of the Dragonians finding the Elements isn't based on a time-frame, and could thusly have been AFTER the manipulations of El Nido by Chronopolis.
Title: Magic and Characters in CT
Post by: GrayLensman on December 13, 2003, 05:33:58 pm
Quote from: V_Translanka
Slash is a Magical attack. If you don't want to go so far as to call it so, since Crono learns this before obtaining Magical ability from Spekkio, then it is a form of spiritual energy.


Slash causes lightning elemental damage, yes, but so does Robo's Shock attack.  Neither techniques are magical in nature because they do not have stars next to them.  Just as Lucca's Flame Toss causes fire elemental damage, Crono is creating a lightning elemental effect not through magic, but some physical means.
Title: Magic and Characters in CT
Post by: YbrikMetaknight on December 13, 2003, 05:42:10 pm
Quote from: GrayLensman
Quote from: V_Translanka
Slash is a Magical attack. If you don't want to go so far as to call it so, since Crono learns this before obtaining Magical ability from Spekkio, then it is a form of spiritual energy.


Slash causes lightning elemental damage, yes, but so does Robo's Shock attack.  Neither techniques are magical in nature because they do not have stars next to them.  Just as Lucca's Flame Toss causes fire elemental damage, Crono is creating a lightning elemental effect not through magic, but some physical means.


I've always thought of Slash, as well as Aura, as being sort of Chi-like abilities.  That is, abilities created through personal energy fields, but not magic-related.
Title: Magic and Characters in CT
Post by: GrayLensman on December 13, 2003, 08:52:27 pm
Quote from: YbrikMetaknight
I've always thought of Slash, as well as Aura, as being sort of Chi-like abilities.  That is, abilities created through personal energy fields, but not magic-related.


The only evidence of Chi-like abilities or personal energy fields I can think of is the mention of people's "auras" in the Zeal Kingdom.

Quote
My, you've got an unusual aura! So, you must possess the skill, too! It must be very primitive compared to ours! You poor things!


In this case, the aura seem to be a representation of magical ability.

Quote
Your power differs from ours... In you I sense a strange aura of...kindness...

The prophet's aura is full of hatred and sorrow. He'll destroy himself, and those he loves.


From this we see that a person's aura also takes on the characteristics of his emotions.

Is this aura a personal energy field as you describe, capable of generating elemental effects in its own right, or is it simply a manifestation of a persons natural magical abilities?  Since Marle's healing tech is named "Aura" (and is not magical), it strongly suggests that people can create elemental effects though manipulation of their auras.  How would such an ability tie in with our notions of magic and was Lavos responsible for the appearance of auras in humans?
Title: Magic and Characters in CT
Post by: Empiric on December 14, 2003, 02:51:37 am
Alright, Now we are rolling.

Quote
Is this aura a personal energy field as you describe, capable of generating elemental effects in its own right, or is it simply a manifestation of a persons natural magical abilities? Since Marle's healing tech is named "Aura" (and is not magical), it strongly suggests that people can create elemental effects though manipulation of their auras. How would such an ability tie in with our notions of magic and was Lavos responsible for the appearance of auras in humans?


  Consider the case of Ayla.  She is born before Lavos arrived, yet still has several abilities that could very well be concieved of as magic.  I honestly cannot think of a single way to explain Tail Spin without referring to magic in any way, and neither can I explain many of her Double/Triple techs without saying she does have the ability to at least in some manner control or harnass magic.  Maybe Chi is a form of magic that exists before Lavos?  Remember the Reptites had a form of magic (Boulders raining from the sky?  Azala's confusion attack?) so maybe, the humans might yet have a less developed form of chi themselves.  Also, the characters of CC had abilities that they could use naturally, without the assistance of elements.  Could those also be other examples of this form of Chi?  Maybe the Aura, or Chi, could have been the vehicle which Lavos used to bring magic to the humans?  Enhanced it to the point which it became magic?

Also, in a completely different point, I would like to ask that we come up with a more definite term for Chrono's innate; something other then the double classification of Heaven/Lightning.  I propose it could instead be, for our purposes, Light.  Lightning is molecules releasing energy which creates light, Life could very well be an appeal to the concept of Heaven.  This could also be an explanation for the confuse ability as it pertains to the graphics in game; as Chrono creates multiple visages of himself to strike the opponent when least expected up to four times.  Luminaire could very well be Chrono releasing light, which in turns create heat and transfers energy (Sort of how Light would power the Sun Stone, but in a FAR more intense burst.)
Title: Magic and Characters in CT
Post by: ZeaLitY on December 14, 2003, 08:32:47 pm
Light sounds good. By all means, let us continue character classification. One point before I post my analysis; Chrono Cross dictates that Luminaire is a release of chi energy in the form of light, or something similar to that. It notwithstanding is still a magical ability to Crono, versus a tech to Serge (it is not innate).

Marle: Hero of Time

Note: See 'Secret of Nu' article for water/life relations that may explain better Marle's status as a healer.

:arrow: Innate Element: Water
:arrow: Character's Physical/Elemental aspect:
-Appearance enables confusing of enemies
:arrow: Character's Mental/Elemental aspect
:arrow: Character's Abilities:
Aura- Marle uses Chi energy to produce a healing effect on herself
Provoke- Marle entices enemies into confusion with promiscuous movements
:arrow: Character's Magic:
Ice- Marle encases an enemy in ice
Cure- From what appears to be the release of internal energy, Marle heals herself. This is most likely related to aura in some form; perhaps magic simply enhances its effect.
Haste- Marle casts a spell which reduces the time a party member must wait after attacking, perhaps rejuvenating them with water. On a sidenote, the game suggests otherwise by depicting a clock slowing down.
Ice 2- Marle summons several boulders of Ice to fall on an enemy.
Cure 2- Marle further enhances her self-healing effect.
Life 2- Marle is able to reanimate, revive, and heal fully a fallen ally.
Title: Magic and Characters in CT
Post by: Empiric on December 15, 2003, 02:00:53 pm
I assumed that simply because it is the simplest thing for me to deduce.  That and Marle's element is water.  Point taken.

Here is my analysis of what has been seen thus far:
Physical/Elemental aspect:
  In general, physical aspects in CT determine very little as to what the innate element is:  With one exception.  Frog is given Water almost randomly by Spekkio because he "looks like a frog."  Question becomes whether or not Glenn was naturally a blue innate, or whether an innate can change due to circumstances.

  Mental:  
  In most cases a characters mental state appeared to determine the innate color.  However, Black magic is assumed a combination of all other colors and therefor needs to be studied.  With this assumption, I would like to know:  What happens when you mix the colors in unequal proportions?

  From this question I have created the Magic Color Wheel.

Primary Colors
White:  Energy/Potential  (Scientifically a lack of color.)
Blue:   Water
Red:    Fire

1 Part Energy + 1 Part Water = Life
         (White) + (Blue)          = (Green)

1 Part Energy + 1 Part Fire    = Matter  (Need to find better word)
         (White) + (Red)           = (Yellow)

1 Part Fire      + 1 Part Water = (Impossible)
         (Red)    + (Blue)          = (Null)

1 Part Fire      + 1 Part Water + 1 Part Energy  =  Shadow
         (Red)    + (Blue)          + (White)           =  (Black)
(Scientifically a mix of all colors.)

  Red+Blue is impossible due to the opposing nature of the elements.  Think of Oil and water, both similiar in appearance and in some effects, but they cannot be mixed without Force/Energy.  A temporary mixture can be created, but it truely is not an independent mixture.  Think of Antipod in this manner, a combination without a combining force: the two elements react violently and un-mix  (Imagine if your Oil and Vinegar salad suddenly exploded because somebody used to much force in mixing the Oil/Vinegar and they suddenly released each other in one swift rush.  Improbable?  Yes, but still the best example I could think of on short term notice.)

One thing I could think of with CC was how NeoFio was created.  She is a green innate plant creature, bred in a pool and brought to life with a Lifespark from Hydra Marshes.  Blue Water + White Lifespark Energy = Green Innate?

I need to look at the Duel/Triple Techs of both games and apply this ratio to see how things stack up.
Title: Magic and Characters in CT
Post by: YbrikMetaknight on December 15, 2003, 03:56:10 pm
Quote from: ZeaLitY
Magus: Hero of Time

Note: Magus' aptitude for all innate types can be explained by the nature of the Shadow element, which is composed of the other three.

:arrow: Innate Element: Shadow
:arrow: Character's Physical/Elemental aspect
-Possible advantage due to membership of Zeal royal family.
:arrow: Character's Mental/Elemental aspect
-Possible advantage due to membership of Zeal royal family.
:arrow: Character's Abilities:
:arrow: Character's Magic:
Lightning 2- Magus either releases stored energy which radiates around a point or the area is infused with electrical energy from outside forces.
Ice 2- Magus summons several boulders of Ice to fall on an enemy.
Fire 2- Magus incites a colossal explosion that scorches the battlefield and produces a red shockwave.
Dark Bomb- Similar to Luminaire in appearance, this causes an explosion of Shadow energy on an enemy.
Magic Wall- Magus uses the Shadow element to protect against other magic.
Dark Mist- Magus invokes a malicious mist that engulfs enemies.
Black Hole- Magus, through the Shadow element, manipulates space to create a black hole or gravity well and then close it upon its elimination of an enemy.
Dark Matter- We can only infer from the graphics associated with this spell that Magus uses the Shadow element in its pure form (a triangle) to damage enemies. Perhaps, as implied by the presence of stars in the spell, he is using the dark matter that is thought to occupy most of space.

One interesting observation I made from this was that Shadow spells usually come with a triangle, perhaps implying that the element's composition is made up of Light, Fire, and Water linked in such a way.


Another fact worthy of noting here is that Magus, who came from the all-magic Kingdom of Zeal, uses only magic in his tech skills, whereas all the other characters use either no magic (Ayla and Robo) or magic with non-magic (Marle, as the most magical of the rest, still has her first two non-magical tech skills, and the other three have non-magic scattered throughout their magic spells).
Title: Magic and Characters in CT
Post by: Empiric on December 16, 2003, 01:10:42 pm
Alright, time to do some fancy footwork with one of the ability questions

    The Nature of Shock:
    Technically Spekkio specifies Robo's innate as Shadow.  He is a machine, and therefor may require all elements in order to operate, thus creating the black innate (this could also explain the Grob-mans balck innate from CC.)  Shock could be that he releases his component energy, and then dilutes it into its base elemental energies, creating a lightning shock.  Remember that based on my color wheel, Red+Blue require White to mix.  Release all the energy required to mix the elements and you have an electric attack that uses the trinity as a base.  
   
We see throughout the game that occasionally Robo needs to 'vent'.  Something he does after holding the doors open and such acts of increased activity.  Maybe what happens is that he consumes the red/blue energy to stay active, and then stores up the Light energy in an internal battery.  Whenever he has an increased bout of activity, he needs to 'vent' excess light energy that he couldn't otherwise handle.  Shock could simply be the residue stored in the battery to be used at a later time.  The trinity base ensues.
Title: Magic and Characters in CT
Post by: ZeaLitY on December 18, 2003, 08:10:38 pm
There are some things to be addressed; we'll go point by point.

Most analysis is based on empirical evidence, which is directly observable in the games themselves; we should try to limit what we can so that we do not fly too far away from hard evidence.

For example, it is said white/lightning & heaven as a lack of color; unfortunately, this is not exactly true as the basic element system is not truly chromatic. We should only believe what we can gain directly from experimentation and observance --that water has healing properties, shadow has magic-protective properties, fire has physically-protective properties, certain elements can be combined, etc.

There is no direct mention of Chi in the games; 'aura' seems to be ones general output of feeling, perhaps; this exists in real life subjectively as one may feel dread around an especially cold person. These are normal psychological reactions; call it emotional intelligence or otherwise depending on which theory is being used.

Quote from: GrayLensman, in response to this
You were right before; borderline innate magical ability easily accounts for the pre-Spekkio elemental techs. However, an Enlightened One in Zeal was able to determine the nature of the Travelers' magical abilities from their Auras, so I think it is more than just emotional intelligence. Perhaps there are certain things one magic user can determine from another. Could magic users emit some sort of background elemental energy field which takes on the characteristics of the user's mind? Another Enlightened One could read the Prophets emotions, and I think Magus would be very secretive about the inner workings of his mind unless he had no choice in the matter.


Robo operating on base elements is improbable considering these elements form reality and are most likely base 'energies' or perhaps intangible, microscopic building blocks. Also, who's to assume that in 1999 A.D. scientists were capable of isolating the four basic elements? In 2400 A.D., the only user of magic is Belthasar; he specifically states that magic was long dead, leading us to believe that elements had not been discovered.

Quote from: GrayLensman, in response to this
If elemental technology was available in 1999 AD, and hence 2400 AD, why would Chronopolis put so much effort into uncovering Dragonian Elements? This makes me doubt that any machines in that era could manipulate elemental energy directly. The only known elemental machine is the Mammon Machine in Zeal, which needed a human operator, Schala, and had a heart of Dreamstone. Could other "magical" artifacts from Zeal (Gold Stud, etc.) operate on elemental principles?


Good point; the aforementioned quote by Belthasar and your quote strike a fine division between the future and Zeal -- while the future operates on perhaps classical sciences, Zeal was indeed able to isolate the three basic elements as seen in their representations in books.

Here follows GrayLensman's two cents on the matters.

Quote from: GrayLensman
Quote from: Empiric

From this question I have created the Magic Color Wheel.

Primary Colors
White: Energy/Potential (Scientifically a lack of color.)
Blue: Water
Red: Fire

1 Part Energy + 1 Part Water = Life
(White) + (Blue) = (Green)

1 Part Energy + 1 Part Fire = Matter (Need to find better word)
(White) + (Red) = (Yellow)

1 Part Fire + 1 Part Water = (Impossible)
(Red) + (Blue) = (Null)

1 Part Fire + 1 Part Water + 1 Part Energy = Shadow
(Red) + (Blue) + (White) = (Black)
(Scientifically a mix of all colors.)


Fire and Water elemental energy combine to form Shadow elemental energy (Antipode), and therein lies the problem. The elements do not combine like light or pigments. I'm not positive about Lightning & Water or Lightning & Fire, but any other combination of elements produces Shadow.

Quote from: Empiric
The Nature of Shock:
Technically Spekkio specifies Robo's innate as Shadow. He is a machine, and therefor may require all elements in order to operate, thus creating the black innate (this could also explain the Grob-mans balck innate from CC.) Shock could be that he releases his component energy, and then dilutes it into its base elemental energies, creating a lightning shock. Remember that based on my color wheel, Red+Blue require White to mix. Release all the energy required to mix the elements and you have an electric attack that uses the trinity as a base.

We see throughout the game that occasionally Robo needs to 'vent'. Something he does after holding the doors open and such acts of increased activity. Maybe what happens is that he consumes the red/blue energy to stay active, and then stores up the Light energy in an internal battery. Whenever he has an increased bout of activity, he needs to 'vent' excess light energy that he couldn't otherwise handle. Shock could simply be the residue stored in the battery to be used at a later time. The trinity base ensues.


Because he is a machine, Robo can not use magic and has no innate element. However, Robo's weapons can produce elemental effects. Just as Lucca's napalm bombs cause fire elemental damage, Robo's lasers produce Shadow elemental effects, Area Bomb is Fire, and Shock is lightning elemental.

We know absolutely nothing about the internal workings of Robo's systems, or if he can manipulate the elements directly. However, it does seem that magic or its mechanical equivalent is not required to produce elemental effects.

Finally, about Robo's periodic venting, this could be simply steam from his coolant system or compressed air from his pneumatic joints. We just don't know.


Lastly, all theories are encouraged in order to round out possibilities, but a scientific prerequisite is that they must be based on empirical or factual evidence. Keep up with the 'Magic in CT/CC' thread; Aitrus has expanded upon GrayLensman's theory.

Oh yes! Lensman, have you drafted a name for it?
Title: Magic and Characters in CT
Post by: Empiric on December 19, 2003, 10:37:13 am
Quote
Red+Blue is impossible due to the opposing nature of the elements. Think of Oil and water, both similiar in appearance and in some effects, but they cannot be mixed without Force/Energy. A temporary mixture can be created, but it truely is not an independent mixture. Think of Antipod in this manner, a combination without a combining force: the two elements react violently and un-mix (Imagine if your Oil and Vinegar salad suddenly exploded because somebody used to much force in mixing the Oil/Vinegar and they suddenly released each other in one swift rush. Improbable? Yes, but still the best example I could think of on short term notice.)


  Er hem.  This, I believe explained the theoretical relationship between Red/Blue.   I apologize for putting the lack of color thing into my color wheel, wasn't even thinking.  Also, to continue the wheel.  

  Green+Yellow = Black
  (White+Blue) + (White+Red) = (2White+Red+Blue) = Shadow

 
 
Quote
Chrono Cross dictates that Luminaire is a release of chi energy in the form of light, or something similar to that

 
Quote
There is no direct mention of Chi in the games

 
Please Clarify your position, since you said both of these things.

  Also

 
Quote
Because he is a machine, Robo can not use magic and has no innate element

  Unfortunately I specified the color, but not what internally would make that color.  Since things have innate elemental properties (I use the Bolt Sword that is found in the Future as an example.  It is found in the sewers between the main area and Death Mountain.  Now question, if they are unable to extract elemental properties, how do you explain that?)  Then whenever something is composed of multiple elemental attributes then it might as well take on the aspects of those elemental attributes.  Now in the game, it is said Robo cannot use magic, but I beg to differ that he has no innate element.  Spekkio says he has no soul, but not that he has no innate.  In the game menu, it states that Robo is Shadow.  The sum of the parts in this case does create the man.  Now what could those parts be?
  Since elemental innates are tied in with specific physical forms, (White=Lightning, Blue=Water, etc.)  White could be the electrical energy that flows through his system, blue could be the coolent system, fire could be the physical components that make him.  THAT part is theoretical (and mostly BS), but just because we do not have a physical diagram of how Robo is made does not mean we cannot deduce based on what we see.
Title: Magic and Characters in CT
Post by: GrayLensman on December 19, 2003, 07:15:34 pm
Quote from: Empiric
Unfortunately I specified the color, but not what internally would make that color. Since things have innate elemental properties (I use the Bolt Sword that is found in the Future as an example. It is found in the sewers between the main area and Death Mountain. Now question, if they are unable to extract elemental properties, how do you explain that?) Then whenever something is composed of multiple elemental attributes then it might as well take on the aspects of those elemental attributes. Now in the game, it is said Robo cannot use magic, but I beg to differ that he has no innate element. Spekkio says he has no soul, but not that he has no innate. In the game menu, it states that Robo is Shadow. The sum of the parts in this case does create the man. Now what could those parts be?

Since elemental innates are tied in with specific physical forms, (White=Lightning, Blue=Water, etc.) White could be the electrical energy that flows through his system, blue could be the coolant system, fire could be the physical components that make him. THAT part is theoretical (and mostly BS), but just because we do not have a physical diagram of how Robo is made does not mean we cannot deduce based on what we see.


I think there is some confusion over terminology.  Most people use "innate element" to indicate a magic user's elemental proficiency.  That's what I mean by Robo not being able to use magic and thus have no innate element.  In Chrono Cross, everything has an innate Color, even machines, which describes their elemental characteristics.  If you wish, you may argue that Robo's innate color is Black, but there has been a lot of argument over how CC Colors relate to CT elements.

Bolt Sword:  this weapon does not cause any Lightning elemental effects.  How is it a mechanism operating on elemental principles?

Quote
SPEKKIO: That's the biggest toy I've ever seen...  Hey, you're not alive, are you?! You've got great strength, however, since I can't measure your inner character, I can't give any magic to you. But your laser weapons will suffice. They can inflict "Shadow" type damage.


Why Spekkio cannot measure Robo's inner character is unknown, but we do know that Robo cannot use magic, only produce elemental effects with his systems.  Does this mean that Robo has elemental characteristics, or that his internal systems manipulate the elements directly?  Or, more simply, can elemental effects only be generated by manipulating the elements?  This is the reason that your idea of character analysis is so valuable.  By determining the effects of every tech or ability in the games, and how they are generated, we can gain an insight on these matters.

I'm a bit confused by your "color wheel".  Are you describing CC Colors or CT elements?  If you are trying to integrate the two, there are some issues.  It seems that your interpretation of the elemental system differs from the generally accepted theory.  By no means am I suggesting that you cannot form your own conclusions, but they should be internally consistent and should not contradict the games.

Quote
SPEKKIO: Not just magic, but EVERYTHING is based on the balance of these 4 powers.


Matter and energy is made up of a combination of all four elements.  Pure elemental energy should not be evolved in normal physical processes.  Everyday phenomenon take on elemental characteristics, but are not elemental in composition.  Nothing should be made of Fire, or a combination of just two or three elements.  The Fire element is a force of nature, not some physical entity.  Robo's systems could operate on elemental principles just as an atomic bomb harnesses nuclear energy, or Robo could simply generate heat with his lasers, which take on the characteristics of the Fire element.
Title: Magic and Characters in CT
Post by: ZeaLitY on December 19, 2003, 08:30:46 pm
I think the Luminaire tech description that appears when the tech is highlighted is the only mention.
Title: Magic and Characters in CT
Post by: Empiric on December 22, 2003, 01:35:37 am
Alright, anyways, to stay away from a hissy fit, lets move on.  Time to look at Double Techs!  Whenever I mention specific single techs in the entry, those are the techs required to create the double tech (And therefor must be part of the tech creation).
 
 :arrow: Chrono+Marle
                     
Aura Whirl:  Marle focuses her aura ability on Chrono while he performs his cyclone ability.  However, instead of healing Chrono, the aura ability generates a field of healing energy that heals all allied units.

Ice Sword:  Marle reduces the temperature of Chrono's Sword during his Spincut attack, dealing Water damage to the enemies.

Ice Sword 2:  Marle focuses her magic into Chrono's sword as he goes into his Confusion attack, causing him to deal heavy water damage to enemies.

:arrow: Chrono+Lucca

Fire Whirl:  Chrono goes into a Cyclone attack, during which Lucca uses her machines to lob some fire into the damage zone.  The Fire heats up Chrono's sword, causing it to deal fire damage.

Fire Sword:  Lucca increases the temperature of Chrono's Sword during his spincut attack, dealing fire damage to the enemies.

Fire Sword 2:  Lucca focuses her magic into Chrono's sword as he goes into his confusion attack, causing him to deal heavy fire damage to enemies.

:arrow: Chrono+Robo

Rocket Roll:  Chrono jumps to Robo, who charges up Chrono's sword with Laser energy.  Chrono releases the Swords stored energy by using his Cyclone attack, creating a laser wave eminating from his position.

Max Cyclone:  Chrono jumps into action using his Spincut attack, however during the attack Robo catches him and uses momentum and his strength to create a high-damage spinning attack/

Super Volt:  Chrono and Robo combine energy, generating a high-intensity electric field that damages all enemies nearby.


:arrow: Chrono+Frog

X-Strike:  Chrono and Frog deal vicious damage to an enemy as they double team with their swords.

Sword Stream:  Chrono jumps up for a spincut attack, however Frog traps him in a water bubble in midair.  Chrono reaches the pinnacle of the attack, and points his sword down, bursting the bubble and releasing a stream of water energy with his attack.  

Spire:  Frog Jump attacks an enemy, leaving his sword buried deep into the foes hide.  Chrono focuses his Lightning 2 ability on the sword, releasing a single bolt of energy to fry his foes.


:arrow: Chrono+Ayla

Drill Kick:  Chrono begins a Cyclone attack, during which Ayla jumps on and rides Chrono/the Blade for momentum.  She jumps off and releases a rollo kick at an enhanced velocity.

Volt Bite:  Chrono Focuses his electrical energy on Ayla who seems to have the ability to ?harnass? the magic for a short amount of time, infusing her bites and kicks with electrical discharge.
OR
Chrono focuses his electrical energy on Ayla, and attacks her with a lightning bolt.  Ayla, being a strong cavewoman, survives the blast with only some burnt hair, but for a short while her body is infused with some static energy; not only that, but she goes into a cat-like rage.

Falcon Hit:   Ayla uses her Rock Throw ability to toss Chrono into a super-speed spincut, allowing him to deal extra damage to all enemies who happen to be in his horizontal way.
Title: Magic and Characters in CT
Post by: Empiric on December 22, 2003, 01:50:39 am
Continuation:

:arrow: Marle + Lucca

Antipod:  Marle and Lucca experiment with their magic, combining fire and water to see what happens.  To their surprise, they get Shadow magic!  But not in its most pure form.

Antipod 2:  Marle and Lucca add a little more power to their magical molotov, creating an even bigger Shadow attack.

Antipod 3:  Marle and Lucca go all out, shoving all their available magical power into the Antipod.  Needless to say, as the shadow magic is created, various monsters are obliterated.


:arrow: Marle + Robo

Aura Beam:  Robo uses his cure beam to ?amplify? Marle's Aura ability ability.

Ice Tackle:  Robo charges up to ram an opponent while Marle cools his skin to the point of freezing, allowing Robo to deal Water/Ice damage on impact.

Cure Touch:  Robo and Marle combine their powers together to heal all allies on the battlefield.


*Note:  How do Marle and Robo's heal abilities combine?  I need to watch graphics closely, but I am unsure how a natural ability can combine with a technological skill unless applied seperately.  Once again, I may be wrong, but I need to check.


:arrow: Marle + Frog

Ice Water:  Frog summons water while Marle chills it a little to deal lots of water damage to a foe.

Glacier:  Frog calls up water and Marle freezes an opponent in place to deal tremendous water damage to a foe.

Double Cure:  Marle and Frog combine their Cure 2 spells to fully restore all allies life on the battlefield.


:arrow: Marle + Ayla

Twin Charm:  Marle provokes an opponent while charms them to steal something off the enemy.

Ice Toss:  Marle summons up a small ice chunk and Ayla uses her rock throw ability to chuck it about.  The Ice shatters, causing damage to all creatures in a small zone.

Cube Toss:  Marle summons up a great Ice Cube and Ayla uses her rock throw ability to chuck it about.  The cube shatters, causing damage to all creatures in a decent sized zone.
Title: Magic and Characters in CT
Post by: ZeaLitY on December 26, 2003, 07:08:58 pm
Delta Attack
Crono, Marle, Lucca
Crono, Marle, and Lucca both invoke the highest forms of their elemental power to produce a Shadow effect. (Lightning 2, Ice 2, Fire 2)

Arc Impulse
Crono, Marle, Frog
Marle empowers Crono's sword with ice as he hits an enemy; simultaneously Frog slashes for a sort of hybrid X strike. Water element.

Lifeline
Crono, Marle, Robo
It seems that Robo and Crono combine their own healing effects with the superior healing element of Marle's to create a vastly healthy Heaven/Lightning effect.

Final Kick
Crono, Marle, Ayla
Crono and Marle combine their elemental powers into a compressed orb
that intensifies the blows of Ayla's kick. Shadow element.

Delta Storm
Crono, Lucca, Frog
Crono, Luca, and Frog combine Lightning, Water, and Fire to produce an immensely powerful Shadow pyramid, similar in appearance to other high-level Shadow attacks -- Dark Matter, etc.

Fire Zone
Crono, Lucca, Robo
Robo spins Crono with sword outstretched while Lucca empowers it with
fire. Fire element.

GatlingKick
Crono, Lucca, Ayla
Crono and Lucca combine their elements to produce a sort of Shadow orb and rotating effect that allows Ayla a large number of kicks. Shadow element.

Triple Raid
Crono, Frog, Robo
Crono and Frog do an X-Strike while Robo does one of his physical tackles. Physical damage; no element.

3D Attack
Crono, Frog, Ayla

Crono and Frog undertake an X-Strike while Ayla finishes off the enemy with a kick. Physical damage; no element.

PoyozoDance
Marle, Lucca, Ayla
Marle, Lucca, and Ayla dance crazily to utterly confuse the enemy in a shower of colors. Lucca might be using Hypno Wave, while Marle employs Provoke; Ayla could use Charm or Tailspin to confuse the enemy. The result is chaos, which is of the Shadow element.

DarkEternal
Marle, Lucca, Magus
It seems that Marle and Lucca enhance Magus' Dark Bomb or Dark Matter by combining Water and Fire for a greater Shadow effect.

Grand Dream
Marle, Frog, Robo
I think...Robo is using Curebeam, Marle is using Ice 2, and Frog is using Frog Flare except with the New Masamune somehow. Physical damage, whatever is going on.

Omega Flare
Lucca, Robo, Magus
I surmise that Lucca is using Flare, Magus a dark spell of some sort, and Robo Laser Spin to produce an unbelievably powerful Shadow spell.

Spin Strike
Robo, Ayla, Frog
Ayla and Robo spin around an enemy while Frog descends from above. Physical damage.
Title: Magic and Characters in CT
Post by: Empiric on December 31, 2003, 06:26:09 pm
Continuation:

 Lucca + Robo

Fire Punch: Lucca uses her Fire Magical ability to heat up Robo's Outer shell, the heat is transferred to the enemy to add damage during Robo's Rocket Punch.

Fire Tackle: Lucca uses her Fire 2 Magical ability to heat up Robo's Outer shell, the heat is transferred to the enemy to add damage during the Robo Tackle attack.

Double Bomb: Lucca throws out one of her patented Mega Bombs, which Robo uses in his Area Bomb attack.

 Lucca + Frog

Red Pin: Lucca uses her Fire magic to heat up Frogs sword during his leap slash attack, causing flame damage to the target enemy.

Line Bomb: Lucca straps a bag of Mega Bombs onto Frog, afterwards he jumps into an extended Leap Slash, dropping Bombs on foes below him in a horizontal line.

Frog Flare: Lucca enfuses the area with intense heat magic, all of which is absorbed by a giant Frog as he is magically summoned by Frog.  The Frog takes in the heat energy, increasing the damage it deals to all foes.  

Afterwards, Frogs legs for everyone!

*Note: The Question as to what exactly is the summoned Frog still stands.


 Lucca + Ayla

*Note:  How exactly does Ayla stand being infused with magical energy?  First it is Chrono and the Volt Bite Tech, now Ayla absorbs fire energy that is normally capable of killing several enemies in one blow!  If she does so normally, she is one tough cavewoman!  And if she is capable of withstanding her allies magic, how come she doesn't fare so well against the enemies magical assaults?

Flame Kick: Lucca uses her Fire spell to summon fire into existance which Ayla either:
1.) Moves very quickly through with her Rollo Kick, causing the fire to incinerate the air, following her as the oxygen is displaced, stopping at the opponent.
Or:
2.) The magic is infused into Ayla's body, and is released at the moment of impact.

Fire Whirl:  Ayla goes into some crazy spinning moves, during which Lucca uses her Fire spell.  The Tail Spin displaces the air currently in place (She does not have the ability to generate air magically), and since Fire requires Oxygen (Fuel being the magic provided by Lucca), the Fire follows the air flow, creating a fiery whirlwind of doom.

Blaze Kick: Ayla uses the same principles used for Flame kick, instead using her much improved Triple Kick, and Lucca using a more powerful Fire spell.
Title: Magic and Characters in CT
Post by: Empiric on December 31, 2003, 06:46:38 pm
Continuation:

Frog + Robo

Blade Toss: Robo partakes in a game of *Toss The Toad, causing Frog to deal excess damage with his Slurb Cut attack.
*Yes I know, its a Frog.  Deal with it.

Bubble Snap: Frog envelops Robo in a magical bubble, lifting him off the ground to eventually float over the enemy.  Unfortunatly, a bubble is not meant to hold the weight of a Robot, and it eventually snaps.  Robo is unceremoniously dropped on top of the enemy, after which he bounces back up, his fall being cushioned by the unlucky monster.

Cure Wave: Robo ?enhances? Frogs Cure spell, healing the health of all allies to full.

Note:  Once again, how can technology and magic mix?  The nature of this ability can and should be explored.  Trying to figure out how Robo can amplify the healing magic of Frog and Marle could very well give insight as to how elements are made, and how they operate.


Frog + Ayla
Note:  The Dinner Plate combination.  Pardon me as I make fun of the tech abilities, but I find the combo to be fairly funny.

Slurp Kiss:  Ayla kisses the Frog, lifting the curse and showing him for what he truely is... a Frog.  However, in the moment of passion, Frog does not return the favor, and heals everyone with his Slurp kiss in order to get Ayla's taste out of his mouth.

Bubble Hit: Frog, in an act of self-defense against Ayla's passion, traps Ayla in a bubble.  As the bubble floats away, Ayla finally breaks it, using a Rollo Kick to smooth her landing on top of the enemies head.

Drop Kick:  The forces of nature combine in this truely divine physical assault.  Both go in from either side and let their opponent get a taste of foot; one green and one mean.


Comedic Note:  Someday I fully expect an ability in which you see the Giant Frog cross the screen, followed closely by a rampaging T-Rex hoping for dinner sized Frog's legs.
Title: Magic and Characters in CT
Post by: Empiric on December 31, 2003, 06:54:01 pm
Continuation:

Robo + Ayla

Boogie: Ayla teaches Robo how to 'Get Down' with himself, as he uses his lasers to provide fanfare and lighting effects for her confusing dance style.  Opponents stop in their tracks to watch as Ayla struts her stuff.

Spin Kick: Ayla gives her opponent a good kick, with her already amazing speed enhanced by Robo's gentle shove.

Beast Toss: Ayla and Robo continue Game Day as they toss their opponent around like a ball.  Oops!  They dropped him.  I guess that means we have to start over with another Rollo enemy.

Note: Robo's family used a different form of this skill in the Future, when trying to restore power at the machine factory.
Title: Magic and Characters in CT
Post by: Empiric on December 31, 2003, 06:56:28 pm
Quote

PoyozoDance
Marle, Lucca, Ayla
Marle, Lucca, and Ayla dance crazily to utterly confuse the enemy in a shower of colors. Lucca might be using Hypno Wave, while Marle employs Provoke; Ayla could use Charm or Tailspin to confuse the enemy. The result is chaos, which is of the Shadow element


The skill Ayla uses is Triple Kick.  Your guess is as good as mine.
Title: Magic and Characters in CT
Post by: SilentMartyr on February 08, 2005, 03:58:50 pm
A bump of this magnitude usually condones bannage, but this topic is too important to be so dormant. I really think explaining how all these techs happen will give better insight as to how the CT elements function in the rest of the world. If no one else is up for the challenge, I wouldn't mind compiling a master list of all the techs with agreeable explinations of how they work. If no one responds, I'll forget I even posted.
Title: Magic and Characters in CT
Post by: GrayLensman on February 08, 2005, 04:52:47 pm
This topic is a sticky so bumping it won't do anything.  However, if you are willing to work on this analysis, you have my encouragement.

There are no old topics.  Feel free to revive any discussion, even if it has been dormant for over a year.
Title: Magic and Characters in CT
Post by: Leebot on February 08, 2005, 07:51:42 pm
In fact, I'd say it's preferable to revive an old topic than to create a new one on the same topic. It saves people the trouble of reading both threads to hear all arguments.
Title: Magic and Characters in CT
Post by: ZeaLitY on February 08, 2005, 08:00:58 pm
Yes, agreed on both counts. There is never a dead topic in the Compendium, and neither will anything be deleted or 'pruned.' Part of the eternity of this; think of all that neat Gamefaqs discussion that has been totally lost, remade and then lost again because the board chews up its posts.

Anyway, yeah, check this thread to make sure you don't accidentally cover anything that's already been described, since I think those descriptions are finished and well-rounded. I keep forgetting we have to do this before the article can be released. Also, check the CT Script for a list of all the Monster Techs in the appendices; it might help with tracking those down.

Oh, and welcome to the Compendium. CTCronoboy posts in OCReMix often, and has hung around Claado's Symphonic thread.
Title: Magic and Characters in CT
Post by: SilentMartyr on February 09, 2005, 01:27:38 pm
Cool. I just wanted to make sure I wasn't doing anything wrong. Some of the other boards are all against old topics being rehashed.

At CTNP we have had this discussion going on fro a while now, the book wants to portray the image that everything can be explained besides saying Oooh Magic! So I have some ideas for some of the doubles that are kinda hard to explain.

Volt Bite: Instead of Ayla actually being physically struck by the lightning bolt there is a sort of electrical field that surrounds her body. Really close, like some sort of a shield, and when she attacks the enemy the energy is released upon it. This obviously takes extreme mental concentration form Crono, since he has to make sure Ayla isn't struck by the energy before she attacks.

Frog Squash/Dino Tail: Hrmm, this is a toughy. Both seem to have some ability to summon a creature. While Frog's is at least understandable, Ayla's maks no sense, Reptites were her enemy, not her ally. This is a little hard to justify, from the animation they both make a cry and then the being appears. The best logic I can come up with is that through thier abilties as fighters they gained the ability to control a sentient being to complete thier will, ala Final Fantasy. It's really crappy, but they aren;t giving us much to go one for these two.

Shock: I always saw this not as a madatory release of built up energy but a built in defense mechanism. Something designed to release a large amount of the energy used to power Robo onto other attacking things. It obviously cannot be used often, its MP costs implies that. It doesn't hinder Robo's ability to function, but it drains his energy much faster than normal operation. So much so that he would need to rest to be able to recharge the lost energy, if it is used often.

That's all for now, I don't remeber anything else that was posing any problems.

Thank you, I hope making this list will help you guys out.

Is there any program you would prefer it in (ie. word type program over spreadsheet type program)? If it makes it any easier I could do it in one or the other, but Ill default on using Microsoft Word.
Title: Magic and Characters in CT
Post by: ZeaLitY on February 09, 2005, 04:18:11 pm
Anything's fine, as long as it can translate to the forums.
Title: Magic and Characters in CT
Post by: SilentMartyr on February 10, 2005, 02:05:56 pm
Alright, I'll get started on it as soon as possible.
Title: Magic and Characters in CT
Post by: V_Translanka on February 10, 2005, 06:33:08 pm
I never really thought about Dino Tail & Frog Squash as being Summons before...Perhaps the large amount of energy required to summon such beasts simply requires a sacrifice.
Title: Magic and Characters in CT
Post by: SilentMartyr on February 17, 2005, 04:03:03 pm
ZaeLity, for the monster techs you said there was a master list. Is that in the Battle Messages II section?
Title: Magic and Characters in CT
Post by: SilentMartyr on March 06, 2005, 03:25:40 pm
Sorry for the double post but while I was making up the list of all techs I came upon an explination for the groups non magical non physical techs (slurp, slash, ect.). Thought you  guys might wanna hear it.

Spekkio unlocked some of the groups the ability to use magic. When doing so he told each of them about thier inner aura, I'd get quotes but I'm too lazy to find a script. Now this aura is also mentioned by a couple of the Zealites, saying how it was kind or something.

Crono, Lucca, Marle, and Frog all have this aura. Magus is different from them so I won't include him. These aura's convey a persons personality through Magic. Crono is quick to act, but always puts his saftey behind everyone else's, hence he has heavenly/lightning. Lucca had deep passion for the things she does and cares for everyone she knows, giving her fire. Marle is fun loving and has a calming beauty, resembling ice water. Like liquid water Frog can be pushed around by anything, but he will never fail. He will always be doing what he is supposed to do, even if something slows him down.

The analogies are a little out there to grasp, I will explain them more if people don't get it.

So based off that, Crono can perform Slash due him being able to focus his aura and physically manifest it through his body and out his sword. Marle can focus her aura to perform Aura (Getting a little confusing are we?) being able to heal small wounds, nothing serious. Frog focuses his aura and makes his tounge do things it could not normally be able to do, like strech and pull incredible weights (slurp cut) and slighty heal someone (slurp).
Title: Magic and Characters in CT
Post by: V_Translanka on March 06, 2005, 05:04:42 pm
Quote from: CTcronoboy
Frog focuses his aura and makes his tounge do things it could not normally be able to do, like strech and pull incredible weights (slurp cut) and slighty heal someone (slurp).


While I can agree with the aura's (or chi) of the characters coming into play for both Slash & Aura...Frog's abilities don't/aren't really seem magical...At least not the Slurp Cut anyways...I mean, a normal frog expanded to his size would have a tongue of greater length, right? I don't think it's implausible to think that Frog's tongue can stretch...And, seeing as it's so big, it can probably pull whatever mostly, the tongue is a fairly strong muscle...The healing I could attribute to certain chemical properties within his frogy saliva perhaps?
Title: Magic and Characters in CT
Post by: SilentMartyr on March 07, 2005, 06:32:18 pm
Quote from: V_Translanka
Quote from: CTcronoboy
Frog focuses his aura and makes his tounge do things it could not normally be able to do, like strech and pull incredible weights (slurp cut) and slighty heal someone (slurp).


While I can agree with the aura's (or chi) of the characters coming into play for both Slash & Aura...Frog's abilities don't/aren't really seem magical...At least not the Slurp Cut anyways...I mean, a normal frog expanded to his size would have a tongue of greater length, right? I don't think it's implausible to think that Frog's tongue can stretch...And, seeing as it's so big, it can probably pull whatever mostly, the tongue is a fairly strong muscle...The healing I could attribute to certain chemical properties within his frogy saliva perhaps?


Personally I agree with you, but there were some naysayers that thought that it couldn't be possible for a tounge to be able to pull something over like 100lbs. I see that explination as more of a fail safe than anything else. If we can get away with just saying that the transformation itself gave him these abilities I would be a happy man.
Title: Magic and Characters in CT
Post by: V_Translanka on March 07, 2005, 08:03:35 pm
Not to mention that all of the heroes themselves are just supernaturally strong otherwise, so why couldn't Frog's tongue be so, right? Naysayers beware! 8)
Title: Magic and Characters in CT
Post by: SilentMartyr on March 26, 2005, 06:18:24 pm
Quote from: V_Translanka
Not to mention that all of the heroes themselves are just supernaturally strong otherwise, so why couldn't Frog's tongue be so, right? Naysayers beware! 8)


Well not right off the bat, but they do get pretty damn strong.
Title: Magic and Characters in CT
Post by: DeweyisOverrated on March 28, 2005, 12:46:02 pm
Quote from: CTcronoboy

Frog Squash/Dino Tail: Hrmm, this is a toughy. Both seem to have some ability to summon a creature. While Frog's is at least understandable, Ayla's maks no sense, Reptites were her enemy, not her ally. This is a little hard to justify, from the animation they both make a cry and then the being appears. The best logic I can come up with is that through thier abilties as fighters they gained the ability to control a sentient being to complete thier will, ala Final Fantasy. It's really crappy, but they aren't giving us much to go one for these two.


Maybe not all of the reptites were their enemies?  Keep in mind, the "dactyls" as Ayla called them were Crono & Co's allies, bringing them, to the castle and helping them escape and all...
Title: Magic and Characters in CT
Post by: SilentMartyr on March 28, 2005, 03:01:57 pm
Quote from: DeweyisOverrated
Quote from: CTcronoboy

Frog Squash/Dino Tail: Hrmm, this is a toughy. Both seem to have some ability to summon a creature. While Frog's is at least understandable, Ayla's maks no sense, Reptites were her enemy, not her ally. This is a little hard to justify, from the animation they both make a cry and then the being appears. The best logic I can come up with is that through thier abilties as fighters they gained the ability to control a sentient being to complete thier will, ala Final Fantasy. It's really crappy, but they aren't giving us much to go one for these two.


Maybe not all of the reptites were their enemies?  Keep in mind, the "dactyls" as Ayla called them were Crono & Co's allies, bringing them, to the castle and helping them escape and all...


Hmm, well this might be a strech but they could have been captured in a previous fight and raised to be transports. I would sgree with you but there is no other reptites that are not trying to kill the apes.

EDIT: Ha, after thinking about it, isn't the scream that Ayla uses to call the dactyl sound a lot like what the Reptites fight scream sounds like? Maybe the dactyl only respond to that call, but don't distinguish who or what is riding them.
Title: Magic and Characters in CT
Post by: ZeaLitY on May 04, 2005, 11:17:39 pm
Complete list of enemy techs (click a tech, and then "What links here" to view what monsters it uses right now):

http://www.chronocompendium.com/wiki/index.php?title=Monster_Techs
Title: Re: Magic and Characters in CT
Post by: Bouldegarde on February 11, 2015, 06:26:50 am
Maybe it's possible to get a "reference" from here :D

http://avatar.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Bending_arts