Chrono Compendium
Enhasa Halls - Chrono Series Analysis => Magic, Elements, and Technology => Topic started by: Zenning on September 11, 2005, 12:18:29 pm
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I've some questions regarding these two Zealian vehicles.
Number one being, what's their power source? Do they run on some kind of engine? What kind of engine would you suppose? Some kind of conventional engine, using technology known to us even in our own time, or an engine that uses magic?
I mean, if Zeal depending on the Mammon Machine to provide Lavos's life force as a power source, and we don't see either vehicle in action until after Zeal is destroyed and the Mammon Machine is lost...
...well, I guess my point is, neither vehicle uses Lavos's life force as a power source, do they?
And, how does the Epoch travel through time? It doesn't have even of the previous features that would allow it do so, unless it DOES use Lavos's power, or Dreamstone, or if it can actually communicate with The Entity to open a Time Gate (if indeed The Entity does open Time Gates).
Well, those are it for my questions.
I'd just like to say, it's a damn shame we don't get to use the Epoch's laser more often. Remember when you can crash through Lavos's shell with the Epoch, bypassing it completely? They could have made a shooting scene out of that...
...I'm just sorry that we had to end up shooting down the Black Bird. That was one awesome warship. I wanted to have it for my very own...
...and lastly, after you get the Epoch, and you get to fly around, why doesn't anyone in the towns mention seeing a strange silvery flying thing about? You'd think that someone would have something to say, espcially when it's pretty conspicuous...
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First off, I'm guessing that the Epoch runs on pure science. That is, all engine and "physics" and no magic, as Belthasar I'm sure had no access to any when he made it in 2300.
As for no one saying anything about seeing the Epoch flying around, it might be one of those RPG stereotypes, or maybe laws. It seems that people rarely say anyting about things that the party itself does that you would already know about. Which the Epoch fall into, in this case.
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The Black Bird was probably powered by Lavos's energy. Considering that Zeal used it as a power source.
While the Epoch .. is a mystery, ....... actually since Dalton did change it around it probably does use magic.
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The Neo Epoch is powered by an antiproton drive, which allows it the power of time travel. He did use magic, presumably, when creating it, as he specifically states in the game that he used the power of magic to help build Chronopolis and Project Kid.
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The Black Bird was probably powered by Lavos's energy. Considering that Zeal used it as a power source.
huggawizzawhat? completely false. The Blackbird was a warship. Nothing more.
Anyway, yea, for both machines: Magic. Duh.
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The Neo Epoch is powered by an antiproton drive, which allows it the power of time travel. He did use magic, presumably, when creating it, as he specifically states in the game that he used the power of magic to help build Chronopolis and Project Kid.
Was it really stated? Or didn't he just simply say that he was able to advance his research with the help of his magic and the futures technology?
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Well, uh, this thread may hold some light for Epoch...It's in this same forum...Don't know how you could have missed it...
What does the Epoch use as an energy and does it even need 1 (http://www.chronocompendium.com/Forums/viewtopic.php?t=389)
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The Epoch is powered by the Sum of all human spiritual energy that has every existed, that power is amplified and powers the Epoch.
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...and lastly, after you get the Epoch, and you get to fly around, why doesn't anyone in the towns mention seeing a strange silvery flying thing about? You'd think that someone would have something to say, espcially when it's pretty conspicuous...
In 12,000 the Earthbound elder says "Whoa tha ship can fly!" it would seem very redundant if every person you talked to was like "Hey did you see that flying ship?"
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The Epoch is powered by the Sum of all human spiritual energy that has every existed, that power is amplified and powers the Epoch.
Where'd you get this fact?
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The Blackbird flew by the lift underneath its wings, and looked to be propelled by jets or thrusters. Now, whether those thrusters are running on coal or ether is up to debate, but, fuel source notwithstanding, the Blackbird's propulsion system is completely mechanical.
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The Epoch is powered by the Sum of all human spiritual energy that has every existed, that power is amplified and powers the Epoch.
Where'd you get this fact?
Game evidence. Robo states it when you use the epoch for the first time.
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The Epoch is powered by the Sum of all human spiritual energy that has every existed, that power is amplified and powers the Epoch.
Where'd you get this fact?
Game evidence. Robo states it when you use the epoch for the first time.
Would you care to cite that from the script? I remember no such line, nor could I find one when I looked. I think you may be misremembering things. The only thing I found that sounds even remotely like what you're talking about is this bit before using the Epoch to penetrate Lavos:
The odds are not good...
Perhaps if Epoch's
energy and our own vitality are
combined...
And, as you can see, that's clearly not what you were trying to say.
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The Blackbird flew by the lift underneath its wings, and looked to be propelled by jets or thrusters. Now, whether those thrusters are running on coal or ether is up to debate, but, fuel source notwithstanding, the Blackbird's propulsion system is completely mechanical.
I think it's possible that the Epoch is fueled at least somewhat Magically. Perhaps by something similar to Dreamstone or the Sun Stone?
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It always seemed to me that the Epoch was made out of Dreamstone (What else can penetrate Lavos and unite it's energy with the user's vitality?)
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Don't underestimate me with the game script... I never lie:
(http://img359.imageshack.us/img359/5890/picture5395kh.jpg)
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Don't underestimate me with the game script :P
(http://img359.imageshack.us/img359/5890/picture5395kh.jpg)
Basically it's saying that the spiritual energy gets amplified to allow Epoch to travel time.
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Well I'll be darned. I stand corrected. What an odd way to make time travel work...
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Robo seems to be a big source of info for the Compendium. Who else could have come up with the Entity theory?
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1) Yet another thing I never really took literally. He says "as if"...I take it as meaning he's trying to compare the energy he's seeing/reading to something of equal (or in this case, it seems, lesser) value...
2) I think you could have just quoted it...Or is it not in the Compendium's script?
3) Edit button>Double post
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That was an accident :P
Well, we can definitely see that the power that he is trying to explain, be it the sum of all human energy, or whatever, is extraordinarily powerful. Most of the time, I always thought it was hope and the will for the future to change by Crono and co. and all the humans that they've ever met.
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Where are you getting this from? If it had ANYONE's spiritual energy and vitality, it would be the sum of the whole two people on the Epoch besides Robo. I think that's supposed to be an artistic passage, not a revelation of the storyline.
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It always seemed to me that the Epoch was made out of Dreamstone (What else can penetrate Lavos and unite it's energy with the user's vitality?)
While that makes sense (as I doubt ordinary materials would have the power to destroy Lavos's outer form, my question is where would he get the dreamstone in 2300 A.D? Was it carted over with him when he was gated...?
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Hm...I don't know. Maybe getting Melchior a piece of Dreamstone for Melchior had a butterfly effect that made it available for Belthasar. Or maybe he already made the parts using Dreamstone before he got gated, and the Epoch followed him.
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The latter seems to make more sense, as I don't see how giving the dreamstone to Melchoir to reforge the Masamune could have caused Belthasar to also acquire enough dreamstone to make the Epoch out of.
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No evidence... And Dreamstone is out. Where the hell would Belthasar get dreamstone when even Melchior only had one tiny rock to fix the Masamune.
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Butterfly Effect. One minor change totally fuxx0rs up the future in ways you can't ever comprehend. You know how you saved Lucca's mom? Well you also gave her father breast cancer :P
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No evidence... And Dreamstone is out. Where the hell would Belthasar get dreamstone when even Melchior only had one tiny rock to fix the Masamune.
The only reason he had the rock is because you went back in time to get him some. I always thought it was not a question of quantity, more of convenience. Melchior says something along the lines that long ago, Dreamstone was everywhere. I take that to mean there are Dreamstone mines, where the ore is waiting to be extracted.
Ayla also mentions that her stone is a symbol of power, more or less, to make her chief. If Dreamstone really is housed in some sort of mine, they would have to mine it out. That's a bit beyond the technology of Ayla's people, who just use wooden clubs. That piece was likely one that could be broken off very easilly, and because of its rarity, became a sort of heirloom for the chieftan.
As to the Epoch being made of Dreamstone, I have my doubts. Where would he get it? After 65,002,300 years, it's probably not accessible anymore if it even still exists.
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Butterfly Effect. One minor change totally fuxx0rs up the future in ways you can't ever comprehend. You know how you saved Lucca's mom? Well you also gave her father breast cancer :P
Except that clearly that's not how CT's universe works.
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My gut reaction is that if the Epoch were made out of Dreamstone, someone would have said so at some point. Epoch's an important ship, and Dreamstone's an important stone. But in the English version of Chrono Trigger, anyhow, there is no such mention of a relationship between the two.
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I wouldn't be surprised if there was dreamestone involved in the process, as it seems to be a crucial mineral when non Lavoid magic is involved. But I seriously doubt that there is any substantial amount of it in the machine.
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My gut reaction is that if the Epoch were made out of Dreamstone, someone would have said so at some point. Epoch's an important ship, and Dreamstone's an important stone. But in the English version of Chrono Trigger, anyhow, there is no such mention of a relationship between the two.
I agree fully. It seems like it would have been mentioned somewhere if it was the case.
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The Dreamstone could be the power source, and since the Epoch seems to have some AI, the Dreamstone draws on it's dreams of functioning and thusly act as an infinite energy source :O
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Still, the question remains: Where would he get the dreamstone? When he's gated, it doesn't show him carrying a quantity that would appear big enough to power a machine that can travel through time...
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Still, the question remains: Where would he get the dreamstone? When he's gated, it doesn't show him carrying a quantity that would appear big enough to power a machine that can travel through time...
Neither is the Nu that is with him, or the Epoch itself.
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Still, the question remains: Where would he get the dreamstone? When he's gated, it doesn't show him carrying a quantity that would appear big enough to power a machine that can travel through time...
Neither is the Nu that is with him, or the Epoch itself.
Doesn't he create the epoch in the Keeper's Dome after he's gated? Maybe I missed some evidence that he had it (at least partially) built in 12000 B.C.
About the Nu...um...they're mysterious? Er...the Entity did it! >_>. Seriously, though I don't know. Don't they exist in some form in every time period? I don't remember them in 600-1000 A.D., but my memory is probably faulty...
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There was a Nu in the Blue Pyramid in 1000 AD
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Yeah, I was gona say that.
The Nu says that it's waited like 10,000Years of Belthasar at the blue pyramid and that it'd be with him shortly. It's as if it's immortal in the pyramid or something.
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Well, we really don't know what Nu's are. It could be a robot of some sort, so age really has no bearing on them.
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Well if it has a scratch point, then it's definitely organic. It's just the 2300AD Nu that has like that thing installed into it cuz of Belthasar.
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Hmm, the scratch spot is a good point. I just kind of always assumed they were mechanical due to the switch on its belly.
I guess some sort of cyborg thing?
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Still, the question remains: Where would he get the dreamstone? When he's gated, it doesn't show him carrying a quantity that would appear big enough to power a machine that can travel through time...
Neither is the Nu that is with him, or the Epoch itself.
Doesn't he create the epoch in the Keeper's Dome after he's gated? Maybe I missed some evidence that he had it (at least partially) built in 12000 B.C.
Dalton recognizes Epoch after the fall, he says something along the lines of "That looks like the machine Belthasar was working on. You don't deserve such a toy! It will be my personal chariot!"
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That robotic Nu was obviously special. Perhaps Belthasar made it into a robot because the substance Nu's are made of are more reliable and immortal that metal.
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Dalton recognizes Epoch after the fall, he says something along the lines of "That looks like the machine Belthasar was working on. You don't deserve such a toy! It will be my personal chariot!"
That's a very good point. It probably establishes decisively that the Epoch was created in part or in full back in the Dark Ages of Zeal.
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Dalton recognizes Epoch after the fall, he says something along the lines of "That looks like the machine Belthasar was working on. You don't deserve such a toy! It will be my personal chariot!"
That's a very good point. It probably establishes decisively that the Epoch was created in part or in full back in the Dark Ages of Zeal.
The Epoch from 2,300 AD could be a different model that Belthasar built from scratch though.
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That's true...he could have rememberd bits of the blueprint for an old design and started anew. But that's a good point with Dalton recognising the Epoch as a Belthasar creation.
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Dalton recognizes Epoch after the fall, he says something along the lines of "That looks like the machine Belthasar was working on. You don't deserve such a toy! It will be my personal chariot!"
That's a very good point. It probably establishes decisively that the Epoch was created in part or in full back in the Dark Ages of Zeal.
The Epoch from 2,300 AD could be a different model that Belthasar built from scratch though.
There is an old maxim called Occam's Razor, which holds that quantities should not be multiplied needlessly. In other words, it is an extra level of work to assume, without canonical support, that there was some prototype Epoch in 12,000 B.C., similar enough to Crono & Co.'s that Dalton mistook the one for the other.
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There is an old maxim called Occam's Razor, which holds that quantities should not be multiplied needlessly. In other words, it is an extra level of work to assume, without canonical support, that there was some prototype Epoch in 12,000 B.C., similar enough to Crono & Co.'s that Dalton mistook the one for the other.
Occam's Razor is a deductive tool, but it is not a law. We clearly see Belthasar arrive in 2300 AD without the Epoch in his possession. Unless the prototype Epoch followed him from 12000 BC, he would have had to build a new version.
OLD MAN: Interesting. So he actually
finished the Wings of Time.
In fact, gave his life for it!
Why not put that device to good use?
Take it to the ancient Land of Magic!
Gaspar suggests that the Epoch was not completed in 12,000 BC, making that unlikely. Also, if the Epoch was already capable of time travel, I don't think Belthasar would voluntarily remain in the future voluntarily.
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I had actually thought of that as I was typing my previous post. I dismissed the concern because we see that the Epoch is able to follow Crono & Co. without their being aboard:
Lucca: Epoch!
What happened to it?
ELDER: Your ship is quite sturdy and
safe.
It's almost as if it followed you
here...
So, to bring everything together, there is a canonical precedent for the Epoch traveling without anyone aboard, presumably in order to remain near its operator. Conversely, there is no canonical evidence that there were two Epochs. Furthermore, the Epoch seems to have a spirit of some kind, inasmuch as it is a named character and Crono & Co. are very affectionate toward it, and Robo describes it as a concentration of spiritual energy. This makes it something of an individual, who to duplicate would be unthinkable. Occam's Razor, which you are right is not a "law" by any measurement--although I never alleged that it was--does provide for the reasoning not to assume that two Epochs existed, when a less troublesome, canonically supported explanation is available.
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But if the Epoch is already functional when Belthasar goes to 2,300 AD (or something like 2,290 AD), why doesn't he go to another time-line instead of letting himself die?
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But if the Epoch is already functional when Belthasar goes to 2,300 AD (or something like 2,290 AD), why doesn't he go to another time-line instead of letting himself die?
That seems to be a moot question, since Belthasar put the Epoch in storage anyway. And you know how stereotypical old wise men are in Japanese culture...they love to send you on the quest instead of doing it themselves. Maybe Belthasar figured that on his own he could not make the difference that needed to be made, and so he either did not use the Epoch or did not use it for anything pertinent to the Chrono Trigger plotline, and instead entrusted it to those who would break the seal!
<cue Chrono Trigger theme>
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Forced to live here, I continued to
conduct research on Lavos.
But I am growing old.
And it's impossible to keep sane in such
trying times. So before I lose it
completely, I shall safeguard my data,
and my ultimate creation...
How I long to return home...
But I have grown frail...
So you...YOU, who have opened the
door!
I leave things in your hands.
Only by mastering time, itself, do you
stand a chance against Lavos.
The odds will be against you...
But you are true heros.
The world is in your hands.
Open, now, the last door, and take
what you find there.
My last invention...
My «Wings of Time» ...
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So, That was Belthasar talking in his old body. Now he resides in the Nu, or atleast his conscience does. He should still have been able to do something.
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Any of you like Star Wars? Han Solo said:
If we don't calculate exactly we could fly right through star and cause a super-nova!
If a mere space-ship can fly through a star at hyperspeed, it makes sense to suppose a time machine could fly through Lavos' shell at warp speed! Keep in mind that the Epoch broke. Also, 0 AD is the founding of Guardia. Therefore, it stand to reason that 1000 AD is about 1700 AD in real life, and 2300 AD is about 3000 AD. I would say they'd have quite advanced metals and power sources. Mainly things we couldn't comprehend. Who's to say that an unfinished Epoch couldn't fly through time with NO living passengers. He might not have finished the life-support systems.
The only problem with the dreamstone theory is that it was previously stated that the Dreamstone would draw out the rider's hopes and dreams. However, the Epoch did followed Crono & co. with no riders. Also would that make the Epoch effectively evil while Dalton was riding it? Who was riding the Epoch in the battle with Dalton anyway. Therefore, it stands to reason that there was another powersource.