Chrono Compendium
Kajar Laboratories - Fan Works and Submissions => Chrono Trigger Modification => Topic started by: Boo the Gentleman Caller on July 06, 2021, 11:16:48 pm
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You know, I've seen a lot of talk on Reddit over the past few years about Crimson Echoes vs Flames of Eternity. I'm curious if there'd be any interest in taking the Crimson Echoes beta that leaked and giving it some 2021 polish (QoL). Or we could take Flames of Eternity and work backwards/forwards from there?
Maybe Agent12 and some of the others would be interested in coming back for a little hacking fun, or perhaps not. Plus, now we have a plethora of Mauron's TF addons that weren't available 10+ years ago.
A few ideas:
1.) New techs as originally intended.
2.) Triple techs for Magus!
3.) Human Glenn replacing Frog (or perhaps even an event or quest to show him turning back)
4.) Overall combat balance (let's face it, vanilla Crimson Echoes was hard)
5.) A world map for the Reptite Dimension! (especially now that we can have more than 7 overworld maps)
6.) Some new, enhanced tilesets -- perhaps some new, non-ruined 2300ad tiles for Chronopolis, for example?
7.) New and/or expanded events (I know I always hated the first few chapters of the game; they felt rushed and convoluted, so perhaps we can reshape them a bit to make them flow better?)
8.) Perhaps a new file NG+ ending (a la Chrono Trigger DS' Dream Devourer ending) that closes the door on Crimson Echoes and the legacy of King Zeal? Not sure how feasible this would be technically, but worth throwing out there.
9.) Eighth character patch included with an eighth character? (another long shot, but worth a mention).
Curious to see other's thoughts.
Anyway, just a few ideas I've had buzzing about my head. I feel like a full-length new-story hack is out of the question nowadays, and this could really create buzz and overshadow Flames of Eternity.
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I like the idea. I've been shamelessly promoting my hack for the last few years and haven't heard a peep from SE so I'm guessing they don't care any more.
Since all of FoE's assets are borrowed from here I see no reason not to use their finished version and simply restore the aspects of CE to it that you want then go from there.
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Oooo, very interesting. I know originally they were going to replace Ayla with Schala. I can replace Ayla with Schala, but that'd take some rewriting. Could also place Sorrin's graphics in, and other stuff that didn't make it. (I didnt play FOE so i'm not sure if Sorrin made it into that or not).
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I like this.
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I'm tempted to tweak the human Glenn sprite to make his hair spiky instead of long and flow-y.
Anyone know why made that creative decision?
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I said it already in the Chrono Vendian thread: the sheet is an extension of a spriteset already in the ROM. I checked The Glenn Thread (https://www.chronocompendium.com/Forums/index.php?topic=3025.0) where the additional sprites were originally developed, and it didn't look like the subject of the discrepancy between his original sprite depiction and the PS1 anime cutscene ever came up.
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If you want you can use my RC7 version of FoE. It has a couple of bugs and oddities fixed and I added my own graphics to give Magus a beard. (Since he'd been searching for Schala for 5 years)
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So I've been giving this a lot of thought and I am 100% committed to seeing this through.
I think Crimson Echoes is the best bet at giving the Chrono series another story entry, and any current or future hacks are ages away, assuming we ever even get another full-story hack*.
Plus, in the decade plus since the leak, we have matured as creators and have a plethora of new tools that weren't available in 2005-2010. Additional polish, plus expansions to the base game, could really do wonders for the Chrono fandom.
Here's the thing: I think we should do this only if we get the unanimous blessing from the original director team of Zeality, Agent12, and Chrono99. I don't want to proceed without them giving the go ahead, especially with the previous legal threats hanging over their heads during the C&D era. I want this to be done right and with respects to the original authors.
Also, @IHBP, would you be willing to either email me your ROM, attach it here, or send it to me via Discord? I can share me details if you don't already have them. I love the Magus with a beard idea!
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Here's a tentative breakdown of how I envision this proceeding:
Phase 1:
Replays of CE and FoE using both the final build of Crimson Echoes and the RC7+IHBP build of Flames of Eternity. This will include detailed note-taking to note both differences in builds, potential reversals of FoE changes to back to CE, and musings on where additional content/fixes/enhancements can occur.
Phase 2:
In tandem with Phase 1, brainstorming and documentation for what is realistic to change or add. This may require technical research into the ROM data and currently available tools, as we need to be realistic about what can be done with what we have (including data limitations). We may also possibly crowd source ideas or 'what would you like to see' for community engagement, within reason (since fandom is rarely within reason when opening it up to feedback like that, haha).
Phase 3:
Building of said "Plus" enhancements and additions. May happen in tandem with Phase 2.
Phase 4:
End-to-end testing.
Phase 5:
Release without warning or fanfare to ensure a successful launch.
*Excludes expansions for base Chrono Trigger, such as Chrono Trigger Plus,Master Quest, Schala Edition, etc.
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Sure I'll hook you up soon as I get a chance
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Does anyone happen to have a copy of Flame of Eternity's RC-4 release?
It was released back on July 12th, 2011.
I can't seem to download it. The file name was FoE2011-06-29.smc but I don't have and can't seem to download it from the old sharesite.
Just grabbing it and archiving it just in case.
EDIT: This goes the same for...
-The RC-1 release that came out on March 13th, 2011. The file name should be FoE2011-03-12.smc.
-A plethora of releases that was before they switched to the RC numbering system. File names should be FoE2011-02-12.smc, FoE2011-01-22.smc, FoE2011-01-21.smc (this one is particular interesting to me, as it was a change of course and built off the newly leaked 98% complete build rather than the previous alpha leak -- and this was the first major overhaul moving beyond CE, which included the new techs, human Glenn, changes to Crono's personality, and removal of some romantic elements).
-Plus any previous other builds that now have completely dead links (the blog posts are dated 12.24.2010, 1.20.2011, etc)
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A few ideas:
1.) New techs as originally intended.
2.) Triple techs for Magus!
I wrote a module for the CT randomizer (https://github.com/Anskiy/jetsoftime (https://github.com/Anskiy/jetsoftime)) which allows duplication of characters (i.e. Magus may become a copy of Marle with all her techs, etc). So in a roundabout way I've given Magus triple techs and more generally mangled the tech data. If needed, I would be happy to share what I know. There were some ordeals involved that are best not repeated.
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I don't know if this was what you're looking for, but I have this Build that has the same Date described by you. Sorry if that wasn't what you wanted.
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I don't know if this was what you're looking for, but I have this Build that has the same Date described by you. Sorry if that wasn't what you wanted.
That's perfect! That's definitely one of the ones I'm missing. Thanks, Dynami!
Sooner or later I am going to formally archive these. I feel like this is a part of internet history that needs to be maintained and kept. Plus, previous versions will help in any future CE development efforts.
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I wouldn't mind helping in some small way on this project but I'm not sure what I could do to help at this point. Seems like every base is covered. Either way, I'll cheer this on. The project definitely deserves and for sure needs a revamp on difficulty and such.
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I wouldn't mind helping in some small way on this project but I'm not sure what I could do to help at this point. Seems like every base is covered.
Just keep checking in, justin3009. Right now nothing has formally kicked off and no bases are covered -- this is still in the very early conversations phase. I think, at the end of the day, we'll need all hands we can get. Talk is cheap, actually doing the work is another thing. And actionable people are a dime a dozen in the ROM hacking community!
For example, I can create sprites, but I'm not great at sprite insertion. I also know very little about Temporal Flux, and will try to help there some, but as of right now, I won't be very useful on that front.
I am waiting on Zeality, chrono99, and agent12 to give permission before I fully pull the trigger. I also haven't even started a new playthrough of CE or FoE to actually figure out what we want to change in the long run, so there's a lot to do.
Either way, I'll cheer this on. The project definitely deserves and for sure needs a revamp on difficulty and such.
Absolutely deserves better. Moral support and people wanting to work on this will be huge.
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Something I noticed on my version I gave you is that several of the character's pallets have been altered to make them feel more unique from the original game.
Characters like Crono and Lucca might just have different colored outfits which look pretty cool but you may not like all of them.
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A few ideas:
1.) New techs as originally intended.
2.) Triple techs for Magus!
I wrote a module for the CT randomizer (https://github.com/Anskiy/jetsoftime (https://github.com/Anskiy/jetsoftime)) which allows duplication of characters (i.e. Magus may become a copy of Marle with all her techs, etc). So in a roundabout way I've given Magus triple techs and more generally mangled the tech data. If needed, I would be happy to share what I know. There were some ordeals involved that are best not repeated.
I've done the tech expansion thing pretty well at this point, including some hurdles with Magus specific restrictions.
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Something I noticed on my version I gave you is that several of the character's pallets have been altered to make them feel more unique from the original game.
Characters like Crono and Lucca might just have different colored outfits which look pretty cool but you may not like all of them.
That's more than okay!!! I'll check it out when I get to play it, but I actually wanted to change most of the sprites to show the passing of time.
For example, a few ideas I've had (and ya'll please chime in):
Crono with more regal clothes on, making him somewhat more akin to the wedding ending we see in the PS1 anime ending? (side note: A while back I made a prototype sprite for a 40+ year old King Crono using his original color palette, and although I don't quite have that in mind, something along those lines could be cool - see attached.)
Marle also with more regal clothing for Marle with a different haircut (a bob, or perhaps Queene Leene's updo?). Or maybe go the complete opposite direction and give her more of a casual, traveling-style outfit (similar baggy pants, long-sleeve shirt, maybe a waist-bound bolt quiver and satchels or something).
Lucca: Not sure what do here, really. Maybe just ditch her helmet and make tweaks to her outfit? Something to have showed her progression over the past five years.
Glenn: I like the idea of human Glenn (even though anyone who knows me knows that I have this story scenario of Frog becoming Glenn due to an amphibian plague occurring sometime between 600AD and 605AD, in which he was dying and was only able to be cured by finally finding a cure for the curse and reverting to human). I do think we should revert his hair to short and spiky to match the anime ending (plus, I'll be honest, I think I like it better short and spiky).
Ayla: I can't remember if Alya has already had kids or is pregnant in Crimson Echoes, but a pregnant sprite seams feasible if we want or need it. Regardless, we could make her outfit covering more of her body to show that the ice age is encroaching on prehistory due to the ash of Lavos' fall.
Also... Ayla is someone I'm torn on... I've heard that early scenario development of Crimson Echoes actually swapped out Ayla for Schala. This is something that we could possibly revisit, and I honestly think a playable Schala would make fans go crazy in the best way, even if it means losing my #1 waifu Ayla. I can't remember if she's already had kids or is pregnant in Crimson Echoes, but a pregnant sprite seams feasible. Oh, and we could make her outfit covering more of her body to show that the ice age is encroaching on prehistory due to the ash of Lavos' fall.
Robo: Man, I've been unsure what to do here. I honestly can't recall where and how he rejoins the party in CE/FoE -- is he already working with Balthasar? If so, perhaps he should have some minor upgrades courtesy of 2400AD? A new arm, maybe his steam backpack has been removed, etc. I dunno, but I am open to any ideas.
Magus: I haven't seen what IHBP created yet, but I love the idea of a bearded Magus. This, plus making him more unkempt overall - wild and consumed by years of searching for Schala to no avail. I could even see him having short, cropped hair with the beard, as crazy as that sounds. No matter how his face looks, I think making his cape tattered is a good direction.
EDIT: IHBP, do you happen to have a save file for your version of the mod? I want to skip to late game once I have all characters, so I can see all the changes. I just fired it up and I see Crono and Lucca's color palette changes. Can't wait to see Magus, too! :D
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A few ideas:
1.) New techs as originally intended.
2.) Triple techs for Magus!
I wrote a module for the CT randomizer (https://github.com/Anskiy/jetsoftime (https://github.com/Anskiy/jetsoftime)) which allows duplication of characters (i.e. Magus may become a copy of Marle with all her techs, etc). So in a roundabout way I've given Magus triple techs and more generally mangled the tech data. If needed, I would be happy to share what I know. There were some ordeals involved that are best not repeated.
I've done the tech expansion thing pretty well at this point, including some hurdles with Magus specific restrictions.
That's great! When I went looking for what had been done I only found bits and pieces. I would love to compare notes sometime since I've probably missed a thing or two. The only Magus-specific thing I found was related to how the game chooses to display "Tech" or "Comb" so it sure sounds like I'm missing something.
The most obnoxious issue that I found is that when there are more than 0x40 dual/triple techs it's possible for some tech data (mp values used by the menu) to overflow into Crono's animation pointers. There's another break point at 0x7F total techs where tech ids 0x80 and higher trigger a BMI that's only meant to trigger for a value of 0xFF.
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This isn't the sort of stuff I'd want to get involved with, but I read this:
Marle also with more regal clothing for Marle with a different haircut (a bob, or perhaps Queene Leene's updo?). Or maybe go the complete opposite direction and give her more of a casual, traveling-style outfit (similar baggy pants, long-sleeve shirt, maybe a waist-bound bolt quiver and satchels or something).
... and the first thing that came to my mind was suggesting you could make Marle pull a Rosa. As in, like her appearance change from the original FFIV to The After Years. Both are archers with healing magic so it could even double as a reference, hehe. Like trade the ponytail for a bun, like Rosa did.
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I don't have a save file but most characters are available very quickly on a new game.
For Robo what I did was give him a fresh coat so he looks like polished bronze.
Crono has a white gi.
Lucca has a blue tunic and green helmet. (Saw it in some fan art I liked)
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For Robo what I did was give him a fresh coat so he looks like polished bronze.
Crono has a white gi.
Lucca has a blue tunic and green helmet. (Saw it in some fan art I liked)
Funny enough, I played through the intro and got to where I name Magus, but the ROM froze on me. I got to see Crono, Marle, Lucca, and Robo. :D
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That's great! When I went looking for what had been done I only found bits and pieces. I would love to compare notes sometime since I've probably missed a thing or two. The only Magus-specific thing I found was related to how the game chooses to display "Tech" or "Comb" so it sure sounds like I'm missing something.
The most obnoxious issue that I found is that when there are more than 0x40 dual/triple techs it's possible for some tech data (mp values used by the menu) to overflow into Crono's animation pointers. There's another break point at 0x7F total techs where tech ids 0x80 and higher trigger a BMI that's only meant to trigger for a value of 0xFF.
That might have been all I found for Magus specifically.
I know I ran into that tech ID issue before. I've had to shuffle a few things around to avoid data collisions.
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I doubt it froze from anything I did, all my work with Magus was done in Tile Layer Pro. I could have turned him into a Missingno and it should still load.
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I doubt it froze from anything I did, all my work with Magus was done in Tile Layer Pro. I could have turned him into a Missingno and it should still load.
Yeah, it was the emulator, not the ROM. No worries!
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So I've started playing with making some mockups of the characters with tweaked palettes...
Crono is up first; I'm...
- adding his crown as seen in the anime ending (and you can see it on the King Crono sprite above)
- making his hair slightly less spiky
- tweaking his outfit with King Guardia's colors
- experimenting with a non-gi outfit; I'm currently interested in something Locke-esque (from FFVI) -- I dig the vest/adventurer look.
Can someone remind me -- can I create a new palette that can be inserted into the game, or do I have to use an existing palette? I think it's the prior but want to double check.
And is there documentation for what shares palettes? For example, do the seven main playable characters all have unique palette's that aren't shared with monsters or bosses?
EDIT: I'm looking at various 2D character sprites for inspiration on what outfits could/would look good on Crono, and I am shocked by just how many games don't have sprites ripped from them. Star Ocean on the SNES, I'm looking at you!
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PCs have dedicated palettes for themselves.
I believe we have some room for brand new palettes, but I'm not sure how many.
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Did somebody say Lucca?
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Just load up the npc editor in temporal Flux and scroll through the palettes, any that turn the whole character gray are empty. Pcs sort of share their palettes Magus/Prophet is one palette, and any room that starts reaching the limitation starts having objects share with pcs the End of Time does this in Vanilla.
TheMage that Lucca looks great.
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Nice Lucca.
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Yeah, I am loving the anime-ending Lucca. Plus, the sprite sheet is like 85% complete!
TheMage, you made this, didn't you? Looks sooo good!
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Thank you! I did! I'm also using her in my work in progress tutorial on how to insert new PC graphics into CT. She's almost done! But i'd gladly re-work her, tweak her, and/or insert her into a CE plus. 8)
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You have my full moral support from someone who thought Crimson Echoes was almost the best game i've ever played. I can't help from a tech standpoint as I'm not a coder but if you need files hosted or money for...stuff or anything, or someone to battle any legal department, I can help on that end. Also with stuff you may need downloaded or searched for and your worried about legality, I don't care or mind.
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I'm also using her in my work in progress tutorial on how to insert new PC graphics into CT.
Nice! I would be very interested in this.
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I'm thinking about reaching out to Gino at Enhasa Enhancements.
He posted in mid-2020 on the Flames of Eternity website that things were going to be picking back up. I think they'd lost their developers that had been doing the gritty work on the hack, and work had halted on FoE in 2014.
Trying to see if it makes sense to try to bring them into the fold, or if RC7 with IHBP's stellar edits will be the branching point for the two projects (granted, I fully intend on rolling back some FoE changes to how they were in CE).
If you're out there as a silent observer, Gino, PM me. Or if anyone has a recommended way to reach out to him outside of the email listed on the Project Metronome blog, let me know.
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Nevertheless, nothing is going to move forward without a blessing from Zeality, chrono99, and/or agent12 (who has been missing from the Compendium since about 2012). This place was born of Kajar Laboratories, and as much as I'd like to be revived there, seeing how messy the C&D was, I don't feel comfortable proceeding without their permission.
I reached out to Z here on the Compendium, on Discord, and via email... why ya'll so hard to track down?!?!
:D
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I am almost done with a sprite test for the Crono overhaul I have been toying with. Will post here once I get it where I want it.
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Ooo! I hope we hear back from the main CE team
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Yeah, I'm in a holding pattern right now. I don't want to proceed with any planning or considerations at length without approval from the original team.
Zeality is the only one active at this point, and his level of activity is always hit and run these days. Bahaha!
Chrono'99 is MIA and has been for quite a few years.
Agent12 has been gone for a decade. After the C&D he just up and disappeared. Like tears in rain.
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I only drop by this forum rarely these days but after seeing this thread, I could not resist replying. I remember the early days of the Crimson Echoes hack, playing the demo that stopped at the Denadoro Mountains...back in 2005? Good grief, time does fly. In the years since I've tried my hand semi-successfully at making a few personal hacks for CT with help and support from this community.
Reminiscing aside, a couple years ago I tried to make a better running animation for human Glenn because I could not bear how running Glenn looked in Flames of Eternity. As I recall this was largely due to Frog's running animation being a shorter sequence - the hopping was like 4 frames than the other upright running humans. Crono had 6 frames or something similar. I am willing to help realize a better running Glenn as part of this project if that's something worth pursuing. I believe I posted the running frames on this site years ago, so I'll see if I can dig them up.
Excited to see this happening, will definitely bookmark and check back frequently.
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I believe I posted the running frames on this site years ago, so I'll see if I can dig them up.
Please do check! If you have them and this project gets a blessing, this is definitely something we can easily add, and the more help, the better.
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Yes, I found them over in Fan Art. I was thinking it was a year or two ago but it was 2016!
I expect that this project won't hurt for talented spriters but I'd be willing to take a shot at a spiky haired version too.
From the old Fan Art thread regarding the running sequence:
The sequence is based on Crono's frames, so the sequence would be different in game than what is presented in my image. I believe that the running sequence would be 2, 3, 7, and 5, 6, 8. The walking animation would be 2,3,4,5,6,1 and so on.
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Gorgeous running Glenn!
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I would love to see Crimson Echoes come back. I never beat the game myself, but I did watch the game playthrough with developer commentary on YouTube (that commentary probably doesn't exist anymore because they were in annotation form :x )
I remember looking up Flames of Eternity a while back and it seemed like a minor upgrade to CE at the time, were there any major differences between the two other than changing the name?
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Some updates.
1.) Bugfixes and gameplay balancing.
2.) Some visual improvements in level design.
3.) Frog Glenn has been replaced with human Glenn!
4.) Partially explorable and incomplete 1999AD.
5.) Some dialogue changes.
The overall plot remaining the same, though.
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I would love to see Crimson Echoes come back. I never beat the game myself, but I did watch the game playthrough with developer commentary on YouTube (that commentary probably doesn't exist anymore because they were in annotation form :x )
Yes I mourn the loss of the commentary. I tend to binge the walkthrough every May and its not the same without the annotations :( :( :(
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If you watch using a tool like invidious, you can still see the annotations. Here is an invidious instance with annotations enabled:
https://invidious.hub.ne.kr/watch?v=YSTpkMB9kNk&list=PLE952926C2A6E7039&iv_load_policy=1
Otherwise, the commentary from those videos as subtitle files is here:
https://static.chronocompendium.com/Black/Other/Crimson_Echoes_Annotations.zip
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If you watch using a tool like invidious, you can still see the annotations. Here is an invidious instance with annotations enabled:
https://invidious.hub.ne.kr/watch?v=YSTpkMB9kNk&list=PLE952926C2A6E7039&iv_load_policy=1
Otherwise, the commentary from those videos as subtitle files is here:
https://static.chronocompendium.com/Black/Other/Crimson_Echoes_Annotations.zip
Oh damn, that's reall cool! Thanks!
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Oh my! Trig you so made my week :D :D :D TIME TO BINGE WATCH!!!!
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I haven't been on for a few years now, but nice to see that there's still progress being made. Would love to see this finished product once done.
No doubt I've missed a lot but am excited to see work like this going on.
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I would have to redo an intensive course to contribute, but who knows.
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Is this still going on? I'm very much looking forward to it!
Also this is a great opportunity to take advantage of MSU1 enhancements, I'm open to make some new tracks/arrangements to go along with this revival if needed!
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No, it never got off the ground. I wasn't going to pursue it at all without the blessing of the original creators, and since that didn't happen, I wasn't going to put energy into trying to make it happen. When I asked the main creators, the request was ignored or they talked around the issue.
I get it, though, there were threats of litigation and it was directly at them, so I can imagine it would be a grey, uncomfortable area for them even now.
The idea was there, but consider it dead before it could start. :)
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Oh it's ok, one would think that after all this time both the CE team and SqEnix would be more relaxed about it, but it's completely understandable.
In any case, if anyone's curious, you can still apply the MSU1 patch on CE. I just used Cthulhu's method to be safe which uses a batch file instead of a simple patch, but it's compatible with most if not all hacks/translations. Not gonna post links or anything, Google what you need.
Get the CE Final rom, drag and drop it (make sure it's .sfc) into ExHiROM.bat from Cthulhu's patch, and done