Chrono Compendium
Zenan Plains - Site Discussion => Chrono / Gameplay Casual Discussion => Topic started by: PrincessNadia78 on April 18, 2018, 07:43:19 pm
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So I'm curious what the general consensus is in the Chrono community about this game. For me, I do enjoy it (even though I hate playing as Lynx!) but I feel like it's more of a spin-off to Chrono Trigger than a true sequel.
Does anyone else feel this way?
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Well, I kinda agree on the same.
I mostly like the game. Probably not everything when it comes to Kid, but outside of that I do enjoy it. But yeah, it doesn't quite feel like a sequel to CT. Well, in a setting that involves time travel and the like, defining a "true" sequel would be a bit hard to agree with. But yeah, not a direct continuition of CT's story.
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I love it almost (but not quite) as much as Chrono Trigger. It had beautiful music and visuals, and a really compelling story... Once you had re-played it a couple of times and figured out what the hell was going on. My biggest complaint is the pacing.* A LOT of backstory is thrown at you in the last couple of hours, and in the form of the dreaded infodump, no less.
Unfortunately for me, the game was released right as "real life" was starting to pick up steam, so I've never been able to give it the attention it deserves. I think I've only done three full playthroughs of it in all this time.
* And Korcha. I utterly despise Korcha.
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I'll be honest... It wasn't the sequel I was hoping for. I wanted more of the same - time travel, fun characters, a great soundtrack, and I got half of what I was looking for. Too many characters I didn't care about, a wonky magic system (and no proper level up / exp system), and an incredibly convoluted plot. The Chrono Trigger world was forgotten, the entire game isolated to a small archipelago that didn't exist in Chrono Trigger, and the characters I loved from Chrono Trigger were killed off or entirely absent. I enjoyed the game, but I wasn't enamored with.
Time has softened me, however.
The archipelago of El Nido is probably my favorite jRPG world of all time. The vibrant colors, the coral reefs, the tropical tribal village of Arni -- it's such a unique and refreshing take on the fantasy genre. Many of the characters I once loathed I grew to enjoy -- Funguy, Orcha, Norris, and the others actually turned out to be fairly likable, albeit still a bit shallow. The graphics, the music, and the new additions to lore were worthy of the Chrono titlage. The story line, once it finally made sense, was (mostly) satisfying.
Was it as good as Chrono Trigger? No, not for me. Was it an amazing game, and one I love going back to? Absolutely.
I do wish that there was more Chrono Trigger inclusion, whether in the form of returning characters or locations. Lucca's house and a dead Gato simply weren't enough. :D
All that being said... Man, that brings me back to the Chrono Cross hack we had worked on. Chrono Cross: The Darkness Beyond Time. We had some models of Lucca, Marle, Ayla, and a few others and a story line that would have made minor adjustments to Chrono Cross in order to make room for the Chrono gang. Another unrealized opportunity. :(
* And Korcha. I utterly despise Korcha.
Was it the banana hammock? In all seriousness, Orcha was the only family member I could tolerate. Macha, Korcha, and his bratty little sister could all bite me.
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I am in the camp of those who thought it was a terrific game on its own merits...
...but as a sequel to Chrono Trigger? Nope. Nope. Nope. Nope. NOPE.
And that's all I'll say. I've already made my feelings for this game (and Kato's direction of it) abundanty clear.
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Was it the banana hammock? In all seriousness, Orcha was the only family member I could tolerate. Macha, Korcha, and his bratty little sister could all bite me.
The Speedo certainly didn't help matters. But it was his personality that got to me the most. I guess the writers were basing him on the "stridently earnest guy" anime stereotype, and just took it way too far. Dude has a strong opinion on EVERYTHING—even things that he has no real reason to care about and are none of his damn business in any event—and he makes sure you know it. He's just overwhelmingly obnoxious. The kind of guy I'd probably end up punching in the nose if I had to spend more than five minutes around.
The whole CHA accent was also horribly stilted and grating on the nerves.
Moving on, otherwise I'll be griping about Korcha all day... :P
Regarding one of the other things you mention, I think "too many characters" is one of the most common—and most valid—criticisms of Chrono Cross. I've softened on the issue over the years, as I suspect the designers sacrificed depth for breadth in order to allow the player to form a well-rounded team in any combination of element colors. Unfortunately, the battles in CC are so laughably easy (except for Miguel) that such optimization is never necessary. The stats literally don't matter. So it comes back to the characters' personalities... And sadly, many of them don't really have one. Since there are so many possible characters you could bring along for any given scene, they can't all be given individual lines to say like the characters in CT were. They all have to share the same generic lines. Luckily the accent generator adds a little flavor to these (aside from the aforementioned CHA disaster).
However, the characters that DO get some development (which is to say, those who actually have a stake in what's going on and have better reasons for joining you than "I'm bored and unemployed") are mostly likeable and memorable.
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Chrono Cross was the first I played in the series, so it will always hold a special place in my heart. I understand all its flaws, of which there are many, and there's always the debate of whether it was a good "sequel"... But I still love it.
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I just can't handle the tragedy of the unfulfilled vision, these days. I can play it for atmosphere until I'm blue in the face. Wouldn't we all like to live in El Nido? But the story...we were busy proving that it didn't have robust plot holes, while I personally ignored the greater sin lurking beneath—the sheer tenuousness and convenience of the plot. It's obvious there was something more there, kneecapped by Disc 2 syndrome, and that we're lucky just to have the Belthasar exposition hold it together. By and large, this has become the most usual thing that tanks my enjoyment of whatever media I'm getting into. The more contrived things are; the more things happen amazingly by chance; the more characters are the actors of the author's hand and less their own motivations, the less things become enjoyable.
Unfortunately, it looks like plotting in major media has come to completely rely on this. Skyfall is heralded as an amazing James Bond, yet completely depends on a ludicrous "getting captured was part of my plan" like so many other contrived second acts. TV shows have to layer in so many webs of intrigue and mysteries that one barely can identify a coherent, consistent arc of struggle above the patchwork of constant reactions. The Gordian knot is simply never cut, and Gainax endings prevail as if leaving things unexplained and unsatisfyingly vague is a mark of sophistication. Chrono Cross annoyingly reminds me of this these days, as you see throughout the chapters that you begin the game 26 layers deep beneath the clear overall story and spend time unevenly bursting through them without any idea how they all fit together, or what you were even supposed to be doing. And I don't fault Kato for this. It's amazing when an artistic vision is even realized modestly in a world that celebrates surefire returns on mediocrity.
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Well damn I thought I replied to this topic and I didn't. I apparently composed it all in my head, but never did the actual post. Silly me!
I feel like since graphics have improved, to focus has become more on that than an actual good story. IMO, good graphics doesn't make up for a sucky story. Now that being said, I enjoy the Chrono Cross the same way I enjoy Stanly Kubrick's The Shining. That is, I enjoy it as a separate entity. In the case of The Shining, Kubrick's version is merely influenced by the book, overall not even close to the book. I feel the same about Chrono Cross. It's more like a spinoff of Trigger, but definitely not a sequel.
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I personally can't think of it as a spinoff. In essence each game in the series starts in a new timeline/dimension/whatever. CT basically starts in a new timeline w/the Entity's intervention & CC starts in Serge's alternate dimension where he didn't die, spurred by Schala's entanglement with the remnants of Lavos and all that crazy Chronopolis junk (thus making it about as direct a sequel as you can get [with as minimal involvement of the original cast as possible anyway])...and because of it basically retconning the events of RD, it too is basically entirely in its own multitude of worlds.
I enjoyed CC, but it didn't live up to either previous entries to the series. The character development wasn't there and the battle system, while robust, felt like it was a big reason why. I don't know why we needed more than maybe 2 characters of each element, really...and on top of that the new system of elements itself didn't seem like a necessary addition either. Was it all just so they could do the final boss battle "good" ending using the Chrono Cross? It sure felt that forced, anyway. Oh yeah, and a serious lack of Double & Triple Techs, which are almost always a much lauded addition when people talk about CT's battle system...>_>
Also, this is totally in the wrong forum! This is supposed to be non-Chrono discussion! lol, maybe I'll move it later....
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Now that being said, I enjoy the Chrono Cross the same way I enjoy Stanly Kubrick's The Shining. That is, I enjoy it as a separate entity. In the case of The Shining, Kubrick's version is merely influenced by the book, overall not even close to the book. I feel the same about Chrono Cross. It's more like a spinoff of Trigger, but definitely not a sequel.
Riiiiiiiight?! The television remake miniseries they did had such a weird ending, which contrasted greatly with the Kubrick version. I loved the Kubrick ending; it was ambiguous and sad. It left me longing for more. Then I saw the Steven King version and the ending was completely different; Jack sacrificed himself to save his family and had a special guest appearance at his son's high school graduation. It felt hokey and contrived.
Then, years later, I read the Dark Tower series. This was my first foray into reading the works of King, so I ended up going back and reading a bunch of his original novels/novellas/short stories, amongst them The Shining.
And the television miniseries ending that was so stupid ended up being the one from his book. It was only at this point that I realized it was the Kubrick version that was an outlier and greatly changed the events from the book.
It was then that I realized that we largely favor the first interpretation of whatever we come across (when it comes to fiction).
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Also, this is totally in the wrong forum! This is supposed to be non-Chrono discussion! lol, maybe I'll move it later....
Crap I’m sorry! I try to be really good about that....
Now that being said, I enjoy the Chrono Cross the same way I enjoy Stanly Kubrick's The Shining. That is, I enjoy it as a separate entity. In the case of The Shining, Kubrick's version is merely influenced by the book, overall not even close to the book. I feel the same about Chrono Cross. It's more like a spinoff of Trigger, but definitely not a sequel.
Riiiiiiiight?! The television remake miniseries they did had such a weird ending, which contrasted greatly with the Kubrick version. I loved the Kubrick ending; it was ambiguous and sad. It left me longing for more. Then I saw the Steven King version and the ending was completely different; Jack sacrificed himself to save his family and had a special guest appearance at his son's high school graduation. It felt hokey and contrived.
Then, years later, I read the Dark Tower series. This was my first foray into reading the works of King, so I ended up going back and reading a bunch of his original novels/novellas/short stories, amongst them The Shining.
And the television miniseries ending that was so stupid ended up being the one from his book. It was only at this point that I realized it was the Kubrick version that was an outlier and greatly changed the events from the book.
It was then that I realized that we largely favor the first interpretation of whatever we come across (when it comes to fiction).
See for me, I read the book first. I’ve been reading King since my early 20s and The Shining was one of the first ones I read. After reading it, I was excited when I found out there was a movie and the first time I watched it I HATED it. I then found out about the miniseries and since I read the book first, I LOVED it. Ha ha! I learned to like the movie but it took me a long time. I watch it fairly frequently now. Also, if you are interested, there’s a documentary on the hidden messages of Stanley Kubrick’s The Shiningon Netflix. It’s interesting but I do think some of it is looking into things too much. I still liked it though.
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I want to keep this on topic, but I totally think the Stephen King conversation could become it's own thread. :D
By and large, this has become the most usual thing that tanks my enjoyment of whatever media I'm getting into. The more contrived things are; the more things happen amazingly by chance; the more characters are the actors of the author's hand and less their own motivations, the less things become enjoyable.
This. I'd like to call back to this original thought from ZeaLity. This is a very, true point, and goes far beyond just the video game medium. I enjoy a contrived plot where things comes together at the end -- movies like Donnie Darko, Wicker Park, The Prestige, and countless others execute this flawlessly. So do some video games and novels. But making a story complex for the sake of complexity can lesson the impact and uniqueness of the story.
Take the most recent Lost in Space series on Netflix. People have complained that it was too simple, that it's plot twists were too predictable... Although that may be true, I found it wholly entertaining for the seven or eight hours I spent with the Robinsons. I understand that the colonial family drama isn't for everywhere, but it shouldn't be discounted simply because some thought it wasn't cerebral enough.
There's a fine line to walk on that front. I mentioned Donnie Darko -- it's definitely a cult classic for good reason, but to understand the whole tangent universe and really understand the storyline, you sort of have to take a step back and do some research outside of the film itself. At least that's how it was for us when it came out in the early 2000s (holy crap, was it that long ago?!).
A convoluted plot can be fine, but I do agree that it ultimately hurt games like Xenogears and Chrono Cross.
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I'm surprised to hear that people are disappointed in Chrono Cross as a sequel. The interviews all show that it was never meant to be one - it's a new game entirely, with some tie-ins to the series. Are we still making this mistake 20 years down the line?
You can't get atmosphere like Chrono Cross anywhere else. I don't need a perfect plot in disk two - I'm content living my life in El Nido, speaking to every in-depth, thoughtful NPC disk one has to offer. I can do that for as long as it takes.
Convenience is annoying when games aren't innovative enough to distract from it. Not every fairy tale is stale because "what are the odds". There's a beauty to some things that bending the rules lends to.
This game offers me something I can't replicate. Chrono Trigger's story - sure, it'd be really hard to beat, but it's possible. It's the same concept we know, just done better and better until we perfect it.
Chrono Cross's atmosphere... I don't know where to begin. How do we even create such a thing? There's been plenty of games before and after, but I can't give advice as to creating art like this.
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IT'S DIFFERENT AND IT RUINED MY CHILDHOOD AND IT'S THE WORST
That aside, it's really aesthetically beautiful even today, and a good half of the characters I really liked/wished they were more fleshed out, or even just used as archetypes for characters in modern games/comics/etc. Like if games latched onto Macha or Sprigg as a stock character type, that would be awesome.
But it is bizarre to me that games from that era are judged on a completely different scale than anything made before or after. It's fine to like it, but to say the problems don't matter at all is... weird.
I wish that when Square made remakes and rereleases and such, that they had focused on rangling in Cross's plot instead of making Trigger's more convoluted to suit it. Being dark or different isn't the main problem (RD is nice) but making you wanna throw your hands up in frustration trying to understand or explain it.
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Chrono Cross's atmosphere... I don't know where to begin. How do we even create such a thing? There's been plenty of games before and after, but I can't give advice as to creating art like this.
I think this is the argument for Chrono Cross. The storyline is overly convoluted (which plagued several late-PSX era jRPGs) and suffers from third act text dump, but you're absolutely right: the atmosphere of Chrono Cross is one of the best, if not the best, of all time. It foregoes your traditional jRPG high fantasy quasi-European post-LOTR shtick and turns it on it's head with a highly diverse Polynesian-esque tropical environments. To this day, when I think of the warm sands and gentle blue waves of the beach, I can't help but think about the flowers of Another World's Arni Village, the sand and waves of Opassa Beach, and the vibrancy of Lizard Rock (and North Cape).
What it lacks in character depth and story, it excels at creating a vibrant world. One I wouldn't mind revisiting.
I've heard that Baten Kaitos on the Gamecube comes close to replicating the magic of El Nido, but can't vouch for it, as I haven't played it.
Chrono Cross is a very good game. It has flaws (pretty much plot and character related), but it's a stellar game in its own right. What schism exists between Cross and Trigger is simply because Trigger has flawless execution all across the board. It does everything right - there's no weak area (and just about the only complaint I hear about Trigger is that it's too short at around 30 hours): innovative combat that is still engaging today thanks to the tech combo system, an engaging and original storyline, some of the best 2D sprite graphics of the era, an amazing soundtrack, etc. Chrono Trigger simply did everything right.
I think this is what creates a disconnect between Trigger and Cross. To repeat the success of Trigger on a balancing scale (referring to balance as the above points, plus some) would have been capturing lightning in a bottle twice.
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I do really enjoy the game, but yeah I do also feel it tried to make Trigger more complex than it had to be. The atmosphere is great but there are also too many characters. I wish they had only concentrated on a few: Serge, Kid, Leena and Guile are the ones who come to mind. But I do really enjoy the game, in fact now I want to play it again!
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Chrono Cross's atmosphere... I don't know where to begin. How do we even create such a thing? There's been plenty of games before and after, but I can't give advice as to creating art like this.
What it lacks in character depth and story, it excels at creating a vibrant world. One I wouldn't mind revisiting.
What schism exists between Cross and Trigger is simply because Trigger has flawless execution all across the board. It does everything right - there's no weak area (and just about the only complaint I hear about Trigger is that it's too short at around 30 hours): innovative combat that is still engaging today thanks to the tech combo system, an engaging and original storyline, some of the best 2D sprite graphics of the era, an amazing soundtrack, etc. Chrono Trigger simply did everything right.
I think this is what creates a disconnect between Trigger and Cross. To repeat the success of Trigger on a balancing scale (referring to balance as the above points, plus some) would have been capturing lightning in a bottle twice.
I'm curious to hear why you find the characters a bit shallow in Chrono Cross, but not in Chrono Trigger. Did you find the ones in Trigger to have more depth? I had the opposite impression.
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Well, it's true, CC characters have more depth. They're 3D, unlike Trigger's 2D. They do have a Z-axis. :lol:
Anyway... huh, that's probably a first I'm reading about when comparing the characters.
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Well, it's true, CC characters have more depth. They're 3D, unlike Trigger's 2D. They do have a Z-axis. :lol:
Anyway... huh, that's probably a first I'm reading about when comparing the characters.
I just think that Chrono Trigger's characters are to the point, which is great for the game. They don't start talking about what would happen if they would have become a fisherman - that would take away from the focus, and confuse us more than it would help the plot.
Which seems to be what Chrono Cross does. On the flip side, what do we really know about Chrono's personality, or Lucca's? Outside their occupations and pixel art, I mean. Cross has examples like that (Fungey?), but there were more than enough NPC's that had actual backgrounds, outside the plot. I felt for that fisherman, yo.
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I just think that Chrono Trigger's characters are to the point, which is great for the game. They don't start talking about what would happen if they would have become a fisherman - that would take away from the focus, and confuse us more than it would help the plot.
Which seems to be what Chrono Cross does. On the flip side, what do we really know about Chrono's personality, or Lucca's? Outside their occupations and pixel art, I mean. Cross has examples like that (Fungey?), but there were more than enough NPC's that had actual backgrounds, outside the plot. I felt for that fisherman, yo.
Well, can't comment on Crono, being the standard silent protagonist and all that, but with Lucca I would think she does have depth. There's stuff like when she's reactivating Robo when they discovered him or the incident involving her mother. There's probaby more, but I don't remember right now.
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I'm curious to hear why you find the characters a bit shallow in Chrono Cross, but not in Chrono Trigger. Did you find the ones in Trigger to have more depth? I had the opposite impression.
Personally, I think Trigger trumps Cross in the character department for several reasons: (1) there are less of them, so the impact of each character is better felt (7 characters versus 45); and (2) each Trigger character has a very clear arc spread out over the entire game. Even Crono, although, as silent protagonist, you are supposed to infuse your own personality with his. Because there are less characters, it's easier to get attached to them. Their stories also unfold over the course of the game. They aren't paper thin, per se, moreso tropes... but that was also the expectation when it came to SNES-era jRPGs.
Then, in Cross, you are inundated with characters. Half of them have zero story, and for those that do have an arc, it's so freaking hard to care because there are so many of them. Look at Van and Greco, for existence; their stories are short and wrapped up in two cutscenes apiece. They have arcs, but they are essentially hollow and there's no reason to care about the characters. Unless you're Kid, Fargo, or Harle, your character/story arc in Chrono Cross takes a grand total of 30 minutes each, if that.
I think that's where it comes from for me. Comparing Chrono Cross to games of the same era like Final Fantasy IX or Legend of Dragoon or Lunar: SSSC, the characterization of most of the PCs are just lackluster.
That being said, to each his own. Trigger was nothing stellar when it came to it's characters, but it was easier for me to care for them since their stories unfolded over the course of the game instead of a single sidequest. Mostly, at least.
Chrono Cross is a lovely game. I enjoyed trying to get all these optional characters in NG+. So collecting them was quite fun and, for some, perfectly acceptable.
Just my two cents. I don't want this to sound like I dislike Cross or it's characters, because I don't. I LOOOOVE Chrono Cross and, although it didn't grab me quite like Chrono Trigger, it is a WONDERFUL game.
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Trigger's cast wasn't "deep" in the traditional sense, but it worked because of the dynamics between each other and the rest of the world. I compare them to characters from One Piece a lot, where they do each have a back story, arcs, clear desires and such, and you can picture what each character would do in different situations, but the main enjoyment comes from watching them as a team more than "THIS CHARACTER IS SO REAL".
Cross's characters are literally meant to be interchangeable in any given situation through the course of the game. So even if there's a character you like before they join your party, or an inkling of depth, they do hardly anything to differentiate themselves after that, and because you can only have 3 at a time most of them are like accessories you can't throw away.
So even if the PREMISE of certain Cross characters are more interesting than those of the Trigger cast, they're realized very poorly in the game itself.
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Cross's characters are literally meant to be interchangeable in any given situation through the course of the game.
This is a perfect summation. One I hadn't even considered.
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Trigger's cast wasn't "deep" in the traditional sense, but it worked because of the dynamics between each other and the rest of the world. I compare them to characters from One Piece a lot, where they do each have a back story, arcs, clear desires and such, and you can picture what each character would do in different situations, but the main enjoyment comes from watching them as a team more than "THIS CHARACTER IS SO REAL".
Cross's characters are literally meant to be interchangeable in any given situation through the course of the game. So even if there's a character you like before they join your party, or an inkling of depth, they do hardly anything to differentiate themselves after that, and because you can only have 3 at a time most of them are like accessories you can't throw away.
So even if the PREMISE of certain Cross characters are more interesting than those of the Trigger cast, they're realized very poorly in the game itself.
In 90% of most games (FF6 included), none of the party matter aside from the hero, barring certain scenes. I mean, even in Trigger you can assemble your team, and one or two characters are always "interchangeable". Certainly they had chemistry among themselves, but did they really interact with the world, aside from the main storyline? I think Cross did the "you have impact on the world in different ways" better. Even if it was short and fleeting.
What's interesting is that I liked Baccano or Ping Pong the Animation over One Piece, and it probably comes down the same set of preferences. More characters doesn't mean better (I mean, look at Cross) but they can also give a set of perspective in the world. I'm a fan of the focus being all over the place lol.
Aside from that though, that's fair, and a good way to look at it. I think it comes down what someone's looking for in a game. I agree with both of ya that Trigger had a smaller, much more well-defined cast that allowed the player to care about them more. Cross was premises and brief stories for each. I personally love the latter and think that it puts a broad amount of perspective in a game (I'm there for the world, not the team after all), but it definitely departs from the standard that the main cast should be cared for. Thanks for the clarification :)
Or maybe I just can't take criticism about this game (sigh)
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Oh yeah, if we didn't still like Cross for one reason or another we probably wouldn't even BE here.
BUT YOU SHALL STILL BE BULLIED RELENTLESSLY FOR YOUR PREFERENCE
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Oh yeah, if we didn't still like Cross for one reason or another we probably wouldn't even BE here.
BUT YOU SHALL STILL BE BULLIED RELENTLESSLY FOR YOUR PREFERENCE
Haha, true. I definitely am the one who intruded and said "well, are you really right...?" originally, so it's on me :)
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The existence of this thread is fascinating in itself, as is people’s thoughts on Cross. Back in the day, the Chrono Compendium was the biggest defender of Chrono Cross you were likely to find in the fandom. But now it’s sort of like all of these repressed resentments and complaints are coming out of the woodwork. It’s actually a little eerie, because it reminds of #MeToo and how people often try very hard to convince others and even themselves that they feel a certain way about something or someone, when the underlying truth is very different.
I used to think I had a hot take on Chrono Cross, but nowadays y’alls do a pretty good job of summing up my points: The game’s aesthetics are beautiful; its feeling of peaceful loss and ruin is haunting; its soundtrack is one of the most underrated RPG soundtracks period; and it has some really interesting story ideas and a good premise…BUT the direction and execution of the game were generally poor; the playable cast (with a tiny handful of exceptions) is completely forgettable; the plot falls far beneath its potential by being way too messy; and (of course) it doesn’t feel like a sequel…thus making Cross the weakest of the three games for me, albeit one that I still like (though, for what it’s worth, I’ve only ever played it once, and I think I’m only ever going to replay it once, and then I’ll be “good” with it; in contrast I’ve played Trigger several times and Radical Dreamers a few times (even counting all scenarios as one play-through).
However!
Chrono Cross’ strongest quality, yet also one of its most invisible, I think, is the same quality that makes the [deeply flawed and overall not great] Star Wars prequels as interesting as they are: The creator behind the original wasn’t content simply to make “Original Part 2.” Kato tried something very different, very much in keeping with his own artistic vision for the series, and, as an artist who takes artistic integrity very seriously, I have a lot of respect for that. I respect that this game is the sequel Kato wanted to make, and that, for all its shortfalls, it was innovative for an RPG at the time and it had a strong vision driving it.
We learned a lot from this game: Don’t have as big a playable cast as possible just for the sake of having a big playable cast, because it isn’t actually fun (or the amount of development to make it fun would be wasteful). And, more difficultly, we learned that fans have dichotomous expectations for sequels: They want something both different and the same, and it’s very hard to walk that line. And we learned that polish matters. Radical Dreaamers is better game (IMO) than Cross, because, despite being much smaller in ambition than Cross, and arguably even farther away from the feeling and tonality of Trigger than Cross, it is well-polished and does a good job living up to what it aspires to be.
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The existence of this thread is fascinating in itself, as is people’s thoughts on Cross. Back in the day, the Chrono Compendium was the biggest defender of Chrono Cross you were likely to find in the fandom. But now it’s sort of like all of these repressed resentments and complaints are coming out of the woodwork. It’s actually a little eerie, because it reminds of #MeToo and how people often try very hard to convince others and even themselves that they feel a certain way about something or someone, when the underlying truth is very different.
I used to think I had a hot take on Chrono Cross, but nowadays y’alls do a pretty good job of summing up my points: The game’s aesthetics are beautiful; its feeling of peaceful loss and ruin is haunting; its soundtrack is one of the most underrated RPG soundtracks period; and it has some really interesting story ideas and a good premise…BUT the direction and execution of the game were generally poor; the playable cast (with a tiny handful of exceptions) is completely forgettable; the plot falls far beneath its potential by being way too messy; and (of course) it doesn’t feel like a sequel…thus making Cross the weakest of the three games for me, albeit one that I still like (though, for what it’s worth, I’ve only ever played it once, and I think I’m only ever going to replay it once, and then I’ll be “good” with it; in contrast I’ve played Trigger several times and Radical Dreamers a few times (even counting all scenarios as one play-through).
However!
Chrono Cross’ strongest quality, yet also one of its most invisible, I think, is the same quality that makes the [deeply flawed and overall not great] Star Wars prequels as interesting as they are: The creator behind the original wasn’t content simply to make “Original Part 2.” Kato tried something very different, very much in keeping with his own artistic vision for the series, and, as an artist who takes artistic integrity very seriously, I have a lot of respect for that. I respect that this game is the sequel Kato wanted to make, and that, for all its shortfalls, it was innovative for an RPG at the time and it had a strong vision driving it.
We learned a lot from this game: Don’t have as big a playable cast as possible just for the sake of having a big playable cast, because it isn’t actually fun (or the amount of development to make it fun would be wasteful). And, more difficultly, we learned that fans have dichotomous expectations for sequels: They want something both different and the same, and it’s very hard to walk that line. And we learned that polish matters. Radical Dreaamers is better game (IMO) than Cross, because, despite being much smaller in ambition than Cross, and arguably even farther away from the feeling and tonality of Trigger than Cross, it is well-polished and does a good job living up to what it aspires to be.
J! Welcome back.
I haven't had the privilege to see CC grow over time, but that's what I gathered regarding reviews at the time vs. now.
There's one question that's still on the table though - how on earth, with all its flaws, did Chrono Cross receive 10's and praise across the board, being one of the only 10's GameSpot ever gave, and just short of game of the year award, where a single 9.5 brought it down from the title?
There's nothing about this game that should work. Despite Kato emphasizing that it is a new game, Chrono Cross, instead of Chrono Trigger 2, it never worked. Everyone graded it as Chrono Trigger 2, and no one did their research. A mess of a plot dump, too many characters, everything we've mentioned.
And yet it received tens like it was Chrono Trigger.
Personally, I think I saw Kato's passion in this game, and maybe the other reviewers did so too. I'm not into art, but I can see passion, and a vision for something different. He failed, but he tried like his life was on the line. I'm not as interested in his performance to what the goal was as much as the goal itself.
Like you said J, there's a few appreciation threads out there (resetera too, some old members like Ishida on there), but mostly how bad it was compared to Chrono Trigger, how it failed as a sequel.
I will never forget how I felt when I first played this game. It makes me glad to hear that people used to praise it, though blind praise is never good. I think the hate now is more bandwagon than the praise that used to come with it, but who knows. I'm definitely biased.
Somehow, even though it's 20 years old, the fact the consensus changed makes me sad.
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Something I'd never really considered until now: Trigger was a huge team effort by multiple writers, while Cross was a one-man show (or at least it seems that way to me—Kato gets all the credit/blame and no one else is ever mentioned).
I also get the feeling that Kato didn't have to answer to anyone during development. Could Cross's biggest problems (convoluted plot, uneven pacing, bland secondary characters) have been caused by there being no one to rein in his excesses?
I wonder what could have been, if Cross had been a team effort instead. I appreciate Kato having a strong vision and attempting to see it through, but it's obvious the task was too big for one man. He ran afoul of budgetary and/or time limitations and had to seriously rush the game's final stretch. Since this is the freshest thing in the player's mind when he or she finishes, I suspect it tends to sour the overall experience among those who only play the game once. The game definitely gets better with repeated playthroughs, but many players probably didn't give it that chance.
I think that's probably why opinions are so strongly divided on the game: the one-time players make up the "It sucks" camp, and the returning players make up the "It's great, but flawed" camp.
Edit: Let me clarify that I loved the game even on my first playthrough. I'm not saying one has to replay it to enjoy it. But first impressions matter, and if someone didn't like it the first time, they probably wouldn't feel inclined to go through it again.
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We had an agenda to push. Part of the fun of making a single set of canon, with internal consistency across time travel rules and such, was incorporating Chrono Cross and its dimensional phenomena. To ostracize the game, well, that would stop us from having a unified Chrono corpus. I've backed way off that these days, partly because I can't stand it when trash gets defended (not saying Cross is). Look no further than the apologism from Star Wars fans over TFA and TLJ; you'll cringe inside. Duty to the truth has overruled what used to be a duty to an exalted Chrono fandom.
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We had an agenda to push. Part of the fun of making a single set of canon, with internal consistency across time travel rules and such, was incorporating Chrono Cross and its dimensional phenomena. To ostracize the game, well, that would stop us from having a unified Chrono corpus. I've backed way off that these days, partly because I can't stand it when trash gets defended (not saying Cross is). Look no further than the apologism from Star Wars fans over TFA and TLJ; you'll cringe inside. Duty to the truth has overruled what used to be a duty to an exalted Chrono fandom.
People have been fair here. Both fair praise and fair criticism that were spot on.
But if you've spent time on other forums, there is a wide audience of "Cross is trash, it should have never been made". Which is fine - everyone is entitled to their opinions. But it's a bit interesting to me that people are still willing to judge a game on what is was never meant to be - a direct Trigger sequel.
I'm actually pretty happy with the consensus here so far (not that it matters, ha). People are honest about their experiences, and while mine felt a bit different, so what? I can't explain why I felt so connected with everything that went on, considering the on-paper qualities, some of which were good, some not.
But to have the online consensus that it's a disastrous monstrosity... not sure if I'll ever be able to see where that's coming from. I can pick needles with Chrono Trigger (childish humor that made the tone too light, character stereotypes, Dalton segments being lame, etc.), but I know so many people found it their holy grail. I'm not going to take away from that - it doesn't happen often enough.
I'm not a Star Wars fan. But if that series had something comparable to the NPC dialogue, vivid, hand-drawn backgrounds, and music, I wouldn't blame them much for being so rabid about it.
Anyway, it's enough I'm so over-the-top satisfied with this game. Asking for another is kind of testing my luck.
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J! Welcome back.
Thank you!
There's one question that's still on the table though - how on earth, with all its flaws, did Chrono Cross receive 10's and praise across the board[...?]
Speaking of Star Wars again, I did the same thing with Phantom Menace. I gave it an A+ when it came out. Looking back, that grade was more a reflection of my excitement for the original trilogy than it was for Phantom Menace itself. Chrono Trigger was such a great game that people couldn't wait to validate it by praising its successor, much as people sometimes validate a parent by praising their children.
I will never forget how I felt when I first played this game. It makes me glad to hear that people used to praise it, though blind praise is never good. I think the hate now is more bandwagon than the praise that used to come with it, but who knows. I'm definitely biased.
Yeah, hating on Chrono Cross, or casually dismissing it, was always the norm. The Chrono Compendium was an exception, and it's interesting to see how much of that support has since evaporated. I think the game is very decent, very playable. By no means bad. And I love how ambitious and different it was. There are many fair criticisms to make of it, but that's like America: still a pretty cool place despite all the bullshit.
Somehow, even though it's 20 years old, the fact the consensus changed makes me sad.
If there's one thing I would share with people, above all else, it's: If you like something, own that! Be proud of it. Haters may hate, but it doesn't matter. Don't let your preferences hinge on popular consensus. The world needs more differences, more individuality. Be yourself, always! (Just so long as that doesn't morph into an excuse to be a dick to others.)
Something I'd never really considered until now: Trigger was a huge team effort by multiple writers, while Cross was a one-man show (or at least it seems that way to me—Kato gets all the credit/blame and no one else is ever mentioned).
I also get the feeling that Kato didn't have to answer to anyone during development.
I don't know if this is actually the case, but if it is then it could explain a lot. Artistic visionaries aren't necessarily the strongest directors. They often benefit from the collaboration of other people in their work. Think Kurt Vonnegut: at his best when he had a strong editor who intruded on Vonnegut's native judgment.
Part of the fun of making a single set of canon, with internal consistency across time travel rules and such, was incorporating Chrono Cross and its dimensional phenomena.
An excellent point.
And, if I may, had we not defended Chrono Cross, it would have tarnished the legitimacy of our entire mission here. To the extent this website is predicated upon the excellence of the series, what would say about us if part of that series weren't so excellent?
(Answer: Diddly squat, but human emotions are fickle and insecure.)
But if you've spent time on other forums, there is a wide audience of "Cross is trash, it should have never been made". Which is fine - everyone is entitled to their opinions. But it's a bit interesting to me that people are still willing to judge a game on what is was never meant to be - a direct Trigger sequel.
I'm actually pretty happy with the consensus here so far (not that it matters, ha). People are honest about their experiences, and while mine felt a bit different, so what? I can't explain why I felt so connected with everything that went on, considering the on-paper qualities, some of which were good, some not.
It's not hard to love Chrono Cross at all! With the right mindset / personality / expectations / reference points / etc., it's a great game.
But to have the online consensus that it's a disastrous monstrosity... not sure if I'll ever be able to see where that's coming from.
Most human hatred comes from pathetic places. When you really dig down deep, the people who actively hate Chrono Cross do so for largely pathetic reasons that rarely have anything to do with the game itself.
(Dalton segments being lame, etc.)
Dalton is so lame! He could have been so much better! Queen Zeal was actually a little bit disappointing too. In the best possible timeline, these two characters would have been a lot more fleshed out and interesting.
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Dalton is so lame! He could have been so much better! Queen Zeal was actually a little bit disappointing too. In the best possible timeline, these two characters would have been a lot more fleshed out and interesting.
But - but - but... Dalton destroyed Guardia as an act of petty revenge! He corrupted the Masamune and it's very possible he was instrumental in killing/offing Crono and Marle.
It may have happened off screen, but Dalton was the unseen BAMF we all knew he had within him (once got that indigestion issue sorted out and stopped with the burps).
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Dalton is so lame! He could have been so much better! Queen Zeal was actually a little bit disappointing too. In the best possible timeline, these two characters would have been a lot more fleshed out and interesting.
But - but - but... Dalton destroyed Guardia as an act of petty revenge! He corrupted the Masamune and it's very possible he was instrumental in killing/offing Crono and Marle.
It may have happened off screen, but Dalton was the unseen BAMF we all knew he had within him (once got that indigestion issue sorted out and stopped with the burps).
I think that award goes to the Doppel Doll that fooled Lavos. He (it?) doesn't get enough credit.
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That's something I'd like a new game to cover, though. A re-sprited, shorter-haired, badass-uniformed, military generalissimo Dalton going full nutter mode on Guardia. He was such a comic relief, but this guy was the commander in chief of the armed forces of the Kingdom of Zeal. He was a straight up Enlightened One. You know, the people who raised an isle into the sky, tamed the wild power of magic, and invaded the realm of dreams? I completely understand how he could eradicate a little laughable rump kingdom—he put the willpower of the enlightened into his mission. Zeal was a race of Chrono Triggers unto themselves; impinging upon the domain of the divine was kind of their thing, man. The damn thing needs to be shown, with full weight, in a game.
There's a reason Queen Zeal was the second to last boss; that Gaspar's tenant was the God of War; that Melchior created the greatest sword to ever exist; that Belthasar pulled off Project Kid; that Schala nearly destroyed the universe; that Magus was the badass we all know and love. You don't fuck with the Enlightened Ones. This is what I want to see exemplified in Dalton's single-minded quest for revenge. Give a citizen of Zeal enough time and resources, and they will alter history forever.
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I don't dispute the vast majority of what you just said, but DALTON'S GLORIOUS HAIR IS HIS MOST AWESOME QUALITY!!!
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Well, from Zeality's musings, it seems that my reimagining of my fanfic OC is living up to his potential.
That's good. :kamina
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You know... I would certianly not mind a game centered on how Dalton turned Porre into a military power and conquered Guardia. Even if that means having a Villain Protagonist... it's just so interesting of a premise.
It'd also cover stuff like the role General Viper, Radius, Garai, Zappa, etc. had as well. They too participated in the war, as well. Their prescence is implied to be very imporant, if FATE allowed them to leave El Nido, despite its policy to not let El Nido stuff affect the outside world. Well, it helps that the Viper Clan predates El Nido's creation, from a temporal point of view, so the Viper Clan likely did participated in the original Fall of Guardia (in the ElNido-less timeline) as well, hence FATE allowing that so history keeps its previous course.
In any case... yeah, it'd be an interesting thing...
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I was discussing with my husb about how that setting would end up looking, a B-villain from a technologically and magically advanced time picking a random RPG village to turn into an empire with limited resources and a blatantly evil social movement
...and we realized that's the entire plot of Mother 3.
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...and we realized that's the entire plot of Mother 3.
Oh great, now I'm imagining some top-ranking elite Porrean squadron... naming themsleves the "Daltonites" and wearing suits in the shape of the actual Daltonite CT enemies. :cry: :lol: :roll:
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Why would the Acacia Dragoons have participated in the Fall of Guardia? Weren't Porre and they enemies? It would also seem a bit overkill for Guardia, military power wise.
So when do you think Porre made its spurt in technological advance? When did they go from pretty much having no military force to a full blown superpower consisting of squadrons of musket-wearing soldiers? And what exactly did this entail?
On the flip side of that coin, Dalton still seemed very much interested in powerful artifacts, magical in nature or no, such as the Masamune. I always imagined that it was Dalton's deep hatred that corrupted the Masamune into its demonic form, after which he handed it to Lynx who lured him in with promises of the Frozen Flame.
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I've long wondered if Dalton being the force "outside of the original flow of history" that militarized Porre was the plan all along, or if it's simply ascended fanon (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AscendedFanon).
We have to accept it as canon now, but I still find it strange. Why would Dalton have a beef against Guardia? Your party during the Blackbird sequence (where you "robbed" him of his kingdom) isn't fixed; you can have as few as one Guardian on your team. And if that Guardian is Frog, then Dalton has no reason at all to hate present-day Guardia.
Furthermore, he seems to be angry at Crono in particular, but Crono was dead during that whole sequence. Maybe he blames Crono for the Ocean Palace disaster, but that was what made Dalton's rule possible in the first place!
I don't doubt that Dalton had the means to militarize Porre. Despite him being comic relief for the most part, he was obviously a VIP in Zeal which would seem to indicate a high level of ability, plus he apparently had a military background. I just doubt his motive.
So when do you think Porre made its spurt in technological advance? When did they go from pretty much having no military force to a full blown superpower consisting of squadrons of musket-wearing soldiers? And what exactly did this entail?
It was mentioned a few times that Porre was reverse-engineering ancient technology of a lost civilization (presumably Zeal). It could be that Dalton showed them where to find it.
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Why would the Acacia Dragoons have participated in the Fall of Guardia? Weren't Porre and they enemies? It would also seem a bit overkill for Guardia, military power wise.
The Dragoons and Porre are only enemies when the latter shows its intent to invade El Nido to search for the Frozen Flame. It's likely relations weren't hostile before that. Heck, Karsh mentions General Viper served in the army and was where he was promoted to General, after the Fall. It likely means Porre's, unless you mean it was Guardia who called the Dragoons for help, but personally, it's very unlikely.
So when do you think Porre made its spurt in technological advance? When did they go from pretty much having no military force to a full blown superpower consisting of squadrons of musket-wearing soldiers? And what exactly did this entail?
It's possible it could happen long before 1000 AD. Once you consider timeline changes like Fiona's Forest appearing, or El Nido's prescence, it's hard to deduce. Perhaps there were already signs in the original CT timeline, but since 1000 AD Porre in the game doesn't have much in the way of relevance, outside of stuff like the recovering the Moon Stone from the mayor, it's possible it wasn't simply shown in CT. For all we know, the Porrean mayor when he was still greedy he could've also turned Porre into what it is in CC, without the stuff that would explicitely be pinned to Dalton. Who knows.
We have to accept it as canon now, but I still find it strange. Why would Dalton have a beef against Guardia? Your party during the Blackbird sequence (where you "robbed" him of his kingdom) isn't fixed; you can have as few as one Guardian on your team. And if that Guardian is Frog, then Dalton has no reason at all to hate present-day Guardia.
Furthermore, he seems to be angry at Crono in particular, but Crono was dead during that whole sequence. Maybe he blames Crono for the Ocean Palace disaster, but that was what made Dalton's rule possible in the first place!
I don't doubt that Dalton had the means to militarize Porre. Despite him being comic relief for the most part, he was obviously a VIP in Zeal which would seem to indicate a high level of ability, plus he apparently had a military background. I just doubt his motive.
Eye for an Eye, perhaps? From his perspective, it wouldn't be hard to pin Crono and company as the ones who made things go south at the Ocean Palace. He fled before the whole thing happened, after all, so he perhaps thought they did disrupted things, and so, Zeal went bye-bye. Thinking they being the ones who brought Zeal to an end wouldn't be that farfetched. And of course, the whole "Reform Zeal in my image but those same guys stopped that too" also had a hand to that.
Also, did he even learned Crono died? We now Crono never leaves the party before that point, but he wouldn't know. As for knowing of Guardia and knowing he should attack that... well, perhaps the protagonists don't constantly change their party on the field like we may do in teh game (and likely can't, anyway, considering the limitations), so perhaps when the whole thing happened, it was something like the 1000AD trio, so once he learns of Guardia, he knows it's something he can apply his revenge on. Who knows.
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Eye for an Eye, perhaps? From his perspective, it wouldn't be hard to pin Crono and company as the ones who made things go south at the Ocean Palace. He fled before the whole thing happened, after all, so he perhaps thought they did disrupted things, and so, Zeal went bye-bye. Thinking they being the ones who brought Zeal to an end wouldn't be that farfetched. And of course, the whole "Reform Zeal in my image but those same guys stopped that too" also had a hand to that.
His dialogue tries to play this up—
If it weren't for you, I'd have been the ruler
of an age all my own!
You robbed me of everything I'd worked so hard for!
My wealth, my home, my loyal underlings...
You took it all away!
It's unforgivable!
So come on! Have a taste of the suffering I've
endured because of you!
—but I just can't see Dalton being very upset about the fall of Zeal, since it was the fall of Zeal that allowed him to be king in the first place. I would think the loss of possible immortality would be a much bigger deal, but he never even mentions that. So the only legitimate gripe he has is the loss of his crown.
Also, did he even learned Crono died? We now Crono never leaves the party before that point, but he wouldn't know. As for knowing of Guardia and knowing he should attack that... well, perhaps the protagonists don't constantly change their party on the field like we may do in teh game (and likely can't, anyway, considering the limitations), so perhaps when the whole thing happened, it was something like the 1000AD trio, so once he learns of Guardia, he knows it's something he can apply his revenge on. Who knows.
He might not know Crono died, but he would know that Crono wasn't one of the people taken aboard the Blackbird, who subsequently caused his downfall. Nevertheless, he specifically calls out Crono by name, even if another party member is in the lead:
Hmph, I think that's enough for today.
But don't you dare think this is settled!
Just you wait, Crono!
I'll raise the greatest army the world has ever seen in
Porre, and use it to wipe your pitiful little kingdom off
the map!
So to me, the whole thing is a big plot hole. Dalton blames his only legitimate gripe on the only guy (besides Magus) who literally couldn't have had anything to do with it. Since it's so poorly explained, that's why I have to wonder if "Dalton was behind it" was the original intent, or if it's just a wink to a prominent fan theory without actually putting any effort into making the theory work.
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—but I just can't see Dalton being very upset about the fall of Zeal, since it was the fall of Zeal that allowed him to be king in the first place. I would think the loss of possible immortality would be a much bigger deal, but he never even mentions that. So the only legitimate gripe he has is the loss of his crown.
Yes, the fall of Zeal gave him the chance to start his own, but was more like opportunism. Not to mention, some of what he says applies, or can apply as well, to the Kingdom of Zeal itself, not the kingdom he tried to start.
He might not know Crono died, but he would know that Crono wasn't one of the people taken aboard the Blackbird, who subsequently caused his downfall. Nevertheless, he specifically calls out Crono by name, even if another party member is in the lead:
So to me, the whole thing is a big plot hole. Dalton blames his only legitimate gripe on the only guy (besides Magus) who literally couldn't have had anything to do with it. Since it's so poorly explained, that's why I have to wonder if "Dalton was behind it" was the original intent, or if it's just a wink to a prominent fan theory without actually putting any effort into making the theory work.
Since the people in the Ocean Palace are likely to not be, other than Crono, the same people during the first visit to Zeal, it wouldn't be hard to deduce the groups is larger than jsut three. Crono could be singled out since it can be concluded that he's the leader. So Dalton calling out to Crono even if he's not in the party doesn't mean it has to be a direct address. Can also be in the likes of "deliver this meesage to your leader".
As I mentioned, he can also be included the original Zeal kingdom, something he'd know Crono was present for. Well, I don't know. Could be a nod to the theory, could've been the original plan as well. Unless there's something in some article we haven't examined yet.
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Look, Dalton's hatred towards Crono & co was an anomaly created by the new timeline they created when visiting Zeal. If that's the case, we must simply look at what's different in the Lavos timeline. Although we don't know for certain, I think we can be safe to assume that:
- Without a prophet, Dalton was Zeal's right hand man and enforcer, going with her to the depths of the Ocean Palace
- He perished there when Lavos woke up
In the keystone timeline, the delay caused by him having to battle Crono & co relieved him of the pressure to stand beside the queen, and gave him time to think things through. Sensing Lavos' power and the danger that comes with it, he realized this could spell disaster and wisely fucked off to see what was going to happen from a safe distance.
With all of Zeal at the bottom of the sea, it left him as the highest ranking Enlightened One and gave him the opportunity to take power. If not for the interference of Crono's buddies and with Dalton in power, there might not have been a Guardia at all. He could have ruled the world. More than that, he could have manipulated different time periods. With both the Blackbird and the Epoch at his disposal, he would've been nigh unstoppable.
All of that however was taken from him when they defeated Dalton. Isn't that more than enough motive for revenge?
Also, we have to take into account that Dalton didn't simply brainwash all of Porre. He simply sparked the flames of war that already existed there somewhere. Porre seized their opportunity and accepted his bid to become the world superpower.
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All of that however was taken from him when they defeated Dalton. Isn't that more than enough motive for revenge?
Maybe... But the fact remains that the party wasn't really out to stop Dalton. They only got involved because he falsely imprisoned them and stole their property. At the end of the day, he has nobody to blame but himself.
And as I've said, he can't legitimately be angry about losing Zeal AND his crown. It has to be one or the other, since the loss of Zeal was the very thing that enabled him to take power. Even if he mistakenly blames the party for Zeal's fall, it was a GOOD thing for him. (Except for the loss of potential immortality, but he doesn't list that as one of his grievances.)
Okay, so maybe he doesn't see it that way, because he's obviously deranged. But there's also the problem of where to assign the blame. Who was in the party that defeated him? The game doesn't provide a canon answer. It's actually the first time that the game doesn't force anyone into your party and you have total control over your team composition. Since it could have been anybody, why does Dalton specifically choose Present Guardia as his target? Why not Middle Ages Guardia, or Ioka Village?
I think Acacia Sgt's idea that Dalton simply blames the entire group as a whole, and calls out Crono as its ringleader despite him not being on the Blackbird, is the best one I've heard. It makes some assumptions about what Dalton could know, but apparently he's omniscient anyway. How else could he even know Guardia exists?
(You can't escape the plot holes, even when you're being generous.) :P
But there's also the problem of Dalton literally warning his enemies about his plans. How could those plans even get off the ground if Guardia knew exactly what to watch out for?
Also, we have to take into account that Dalton didn't simply brainwash all of Porre. He simply sparked the flames of war that already existed there somewhere. Porre seized their opportunity and accepted his bid to become the world superpower.
Is there anything in either game that indicates Porre had some kind of pre-existing animosity toward Guardia?
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All of that however was taken from him when they defeated Dalton. Isn't that more than enough motive for revenge?
Maybe... But the fact remains that the party wasn't really out to stop Dalton. They only got involved because he falsely imprisoned them and stole their property. At the end of the day, he has nobody to blame but himself.
And as I've said, he can't legitimately be angry about losing Zeal AND his crown. It has to be one or the other, since the loss of Zeal was the very thing that enabled him to take power. Even if he mistakenly blames the party for Zeal's fall, it was a GOOD thing for him. (Except for the loss of potential immortality, but he doesn't list that as one of his grievances.)
Okay, so maybe he doesn't see it that way, because he's obviously deranged. But there's also the problem of where to assign the blame. Who was in the party that defeated him? The game doesn't provide a canon answer. It's actually the first time that the game doesn't force anyone into your party and you have total control over your team composition. Since it could have been anybody, why does Dalton specifically choose Present Guardia as his target? Why not Middle Ages Guardia, or Ioka Village?
I think Acacia Sgt's idea that Dalton simply blames the entire group as a whole, and calls out Crono as its ringleader despite him not being on the Blackbird, is the best one I've heard. It makes some assumptions about what Dalton could know, but apparently he's omniscient anyway. How else could he even know Guardia exists?
(You can't escape the plot holes, even when you're being generous.) :P
But there's also the problem of Dalton literally warning his enemies about his plans. How could those plans even get off the ground if Guardia knew exactly what to watch out for?
Also, we have to take into account that Dalton didn't simply brainwash all of Porre. He simply sparked the flames of war that already existed there somewhere. Porre seized their opportunity and accepted his bid to become the world superpower.
Is there anything in either game that indicates Porre had some kind of pre-existing animosity toward Guardia?
You know they would have attempted to stop Dalton either way, even if he hadn't attacked them. His reasons for imprisoning them were legit: There's no way they would let a tyrant like him run free, especially if his reign was an anomaly caused by their meddling in the timeline.
I do think he blames the entire group, and he knew Crono was the leader. We don't know just how much he learned from his time in the Dimensional Vortex. He probably accessed and observed various different time periods.
As for warning them, it wouldn't have mattered if the seeds of hatred were already implanted in Porre somewhere. No, we don't see clear evidence of this in either of the games, but if Porre truly desired peace with Guardia, Dalton wouldn't have been able to rally them. Porre became a superpower in such a short amount of time. I don't think Guardia could have stopped them even if they knew what was going to go down.
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Regarding Dalton blurting out his plan... well, it's hard to say due to the nature of the Dimensional Vortexes. They open up after Lavos's defeat, but we can only access them before. From a temporal standpoint, that's not possible... unless we assume that when we load the now cleared save file, we are taking control of past versions of the party, or those from an alternate time line where the vortexes opened up earlier, or something.
The same could be said for the Magus we meet before the Dream Devourer fight. He comes from a party that already beat Lavos, but the party that he meets hasn't.
So perhaps the party that meets Dalton is simply unable to divulge what they learned because TTI/TB/other-theories-stuff, or we can assume Dalton was stopped because of that screw-up... in the time lines where they meet him, and both RD and CC happen in timelines where they didn't entered the Vortexes.
Eh... time travel... :roll: