Chrono Compendium
Zenan Plains - Site Discussion => General Discussion => Welcome / Birthday / Seeya! Forum => Topic started by: Boo the Gentleman Caller on April 12, 2018, 11:56:11 pm
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So guys, I gotta get something off my chest... I've been thinking and trying to figure out the best way to do this. I had hoped that I had created an original Welcome thread when I first joined, as it seemed like the best avenue for this somber message, but alas. I never did any kind of formal welcome.
So yeah, I'm not sure how to say this. I've been searching my emotions a lot, and this I have to say sayonara.
I've really enjoyed coming back here and getting reacquainted with old friends, while also making some new ones along the way. The recent increase in activity here has really been great, and I hope that each and every one of you is able to help make Dream Splash VI a fun, memorable, and exciting event.
With all that being said, I have to officially announce that I'll be leaving...
...until Sunday night...
:x :evil: :twisted:
...for a little weekend vacation, so I won't be posting for a few days. I'm going to the Nashville Cherry Blossom Festival with my kiddos and wife. Gonna shove so much Japanese culture down their throats they'll be in wa mode in no time.
Sorry for the scare (assuming anyone actually bought it in the beginning).
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That sounds interesting. Have fun!
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I was going to tell you it's a little late for April Fools. :P
Enjoy the Sakura viewing! Catch some Clow Cards! Wait, wrong Sakura.
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I am sooooo gullible. Ha ha! You had me for a few moments there! LOL (This is why people LOVE playing jokes on me. LOL!)
Seriously though, have fun! That sounds like a blast, is this an annual thing? If it is maybe I'll force hubby into submission and we'll go next year. *cackles evilly* It sounds like so much fun! Tell us about it when you get back!
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...first of all: you bastard.
Second of all: Have fun. :p
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...first of all: you bastard.
Second of all: Have fun. :p
*points up*
What he said! :lol:
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Long post in the Goodbye section? How could you :P
Have fun!!
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I really hope your kids are the same sort of pranksters as you are. That way, I think I can speak for most of us here, we can have our indirect revenge. :lol:
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...first of all: you bastard.
Second of all: Have fun. :p
I completely forgot about ¡Tú Bastardo! Another Compendium meme, risen from the dead!
Also, Boo: You fooled me! I thought you were going to say work and family was just too much of a time commitment to keep going here at the higher activity level. Glad I got got! =P
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Gwah ha ha!
Back! It was fun! First off, if you've never been to Nashville, it's an awesome city. I travel there for work and it's super cool... and I'm not even a country music guy.
The cherry blossoms were already gone; they bloomed early this year due to the insane weather we've been having (same thing happened in Japan). Luckily, I was up here the third week of March and caught lots of great pics while the trees were in (almost) full bloom.
As for the Japanese Festival itself, it was great despite the fact it poured the whole time. My wife and kids got over it quicker than I did, but I'm pretty sure that was just the cold rain driving them to warmth.
Now that I've been to Japan and experienced it first hand, it definitely caught me off guard by how "westernized" the interpretation of Japan really is (at least on a commercial level), but that's not necessarily a bad thing. Lots of good food (ate as much thai food as I did Japanese, since I love me a good banh mi sammach). Lots of otaku roaming about, a lot of cosplay (the Kingdom Hearts I-era Cloud Strife took the cake IMO), a lot of stalls/vendors, and even the Japanese embassy had an appearance. There were Taiko drums, martial arts, Japanese street performers, etc.
Some of you know that I'm a mid-management corporate shill longing for creative outlets with the hope that, eventually, one of them can drive me to some sort of other financial offering/career/etc. I definitely got one or two ideas while I was there...
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That sounds like it was a wonderful trip!
Write down your inspirations! Share them if you like.
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I can share here...
So since returning from Japan last year I've been trying to figure out... how can I leverage the passion I feel towards Japanese culture into a business model? I'm not a weeaboo or otaku, I simply find the place and people fascinating. I have since I was a kid. A few years back I found a journal from when I was 8 and I said I wanted to live in Japan.
(The only thing I can think of is that, growing up, my grandfather fought in the Pacific Rim during WWII and was, as a result, a belligerent racist against the Japanese. I still have vivid memories of some of the horrible things he said. Then I discovered Nintendo and learned about Japan in a world culture series in 2nd grade. Perhaps the contrast against what I was learning and my grandfather's leanings made me dig deeper and recognize the right and wrong of reality?)
Regardless, it's not even the neon eternal nightglow of Tokyo and Osaka that appeals to me; it's the quiet mountain villages, the fading visage of ancient tea farmers, the wa of the society that is such a double-edged sword.
For years I wanted to go to Japan. In college I was planning on joining JET and doing a few years doing ESL. But I met my now-wife my senior year and my plans changed. About six years ago I said fuck it and stared saving, slowly but surely, for a trip to Japan. One of my old college buddies and I were hiking one day and I told him my intent to go backpacking in Japan, alone if necessary, and it turns out he was doing the exact same planning.
So we ended up going together and have been toying with business venture ideas since we've come back. Import/export, healthcare translating services, some kind of consulting, etc. Then it dawned on me... I fucking love shinto shrines. There's something about the harmony in nature and the fact that they're hidden everywhere. Sanctuaries. In the middle of isolated mountains or in the middle of a major city like Tokyo. When I was in Japan, I hit up every shinto shrine I came across and loved performing the shinto ceremonies, despite my lack of belief in shinto deities.
There are three shinto shrines in the United States. Two in Hawaii and one in Washington. Obviously, I'm not a shinto priest, nor do I abide by shinto tradition. But how cool would it be to have a shinto shrine somewhere on the east coast - literally on the opposite side of the world from Japan? I mean, there's enough of a legitimate Japanese population in Nashville to justify a weekend festival, perhaps there's enough to justify a shinto shrine that can act as both a legit place of worship as well as a regional attraction?
This is totally a long shot and highly unrealistic. Nor do I have any sort of long-term plan on how I would even be involved outside of the initial kickoff. But my thoughts are a shinto shrine in Nashville or somewhere else on the east coast.
Obviously, it would be handled as a non-profit and would need to be maintained by a legit shinto priest. There are likely cultural grants that could help acquire the necessary land and building efforts, as well as fundraising efforts. The shrine, once up and running, could be self-maintaining just like those in Japan; the sell of trinkets, fortunes, and blessings could help with the shrine costs and the priest would likely live on the premises and help with operations.
This could provide a backbone of the Japanese regional community, act as a tourist destination, and provide a venue for ceremonies, festivals, and even weddings.
I'm starting a little research now to see if it would even be feasible. Not looking good, but it's worth looking into if it's something I'm passionate about. Like I said, I'm not even sure how I would fit in outside of kicking off the efforts and helping coordinate, but it's a thought I'm currently trying to wrap my mind around.
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I also love the Japanese culture. That being said I also love English culture and it's my dream to go to England someday, however Japan is my second dream destination. But I'm getting offtrack now... Ha ha!
I really want to learn Japanese art and more specifically, calligraphy. I actually have all the stuff to do it, but it's up in my storage in Wisconsin. Once I get it all down here, I'm planning on starting to teach myself. I have ideas for pieces I could eventually sell.
I am very impressed Boo, you have so many ideas and inspirations!! I also read your post about your writing, I think you could definitely be successful with it. Being creative is not for the meek, it's a struggle. Just keep at it, maybe go back and revisit old projects, you may see ways now you can polish them and make them better. Also, I'm going to have to google shinto shrines now because I'm not sure if I know what they are, however I find all religion interesting, so I'll be reading up! I do hope you are able to get a shrine built as that sounds VERY cool, not to mention educational.
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Also, I'm going to have to google shinto shrines now because I'm not sure if I know what they are, however I find all religion interesting, so I'll be reading up! I do hope you are able to get a shrine built as that sounds VERY cool, not to mention educational.
It's an extreme longshot, so I have zero expectations. But it seems like it has potential to be a really cool endeavor.
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I definitely think so! I would take a trip to Tennessee to go see it!
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I can share here...
So since returning from Japan last year I've been trying to figure out... how can I leverage the passion I feel towards Japanese culture into a business model? I'm not a weeaboo or otaku, I simply find the place and people fascinating. I have since I was a kid. A few years back I found a journal from when I was 8 and I said I wanted to live in Japan.
I've always wanted to live in Japan too, even before passing through the main gateway (of video games, anime, manga, and trading card games) that causes this desire in most such people. I remember watching a documentary on The Travel Channel a very long time ago (back when those cable channels still had educational value) about a Western Japanese person going on a pilgrimage of sorts in Japan, starting in the city and gradually moving toward her ancestral home region, before finally finishing up at a shrine in the mountains.
From there, anime definitely got me into Japanese culture in a big way, and later on I began to absorb the fact that many of the video games I loved had a Japanese provenance as well.
Alas, as I've gotten older I've more or less become resigned to the fact that it's never going to happen, and I take vicarious pleasure in watching authentic channels like Rachel and Jun and Abroad in Japan featuring those who made it there as permanent residents.
Perhaps the contrast against what I was learning and my grandfather's leanings made me dig deeper and recognize the right and wrong of reality?
I think other people's bigotry, when we aren't already absorbed into it ourselves, definitely heightens our awareness of the irrationality of such things.
One of my old college buddies and I were hiking one day and I told him my intent to go backpacking in Japan, alone if necessary, and it turns out he was doing the exact same planning.
So we ended up going together and have been toying with business venture ideas since we've come back. Import/export, healthcare translating services, some kind of consulting, etc.
Nice!
Then it dawned on me... I fucking love shinto shrines. There's something about the harmony in nature and the fact that they're hidden everywhere. Sanctuaries. In the middle of isolated mountains or in the middle of a major city like Tokyo. When I was in Japan, I hit up every shinto shrine I came across and loved performing the shinto ceremonies, despite my lack of belief in shinto deities.
I could go on about this for way longer than I have time for!
If you remember from back in the day, I was (and still am) pretty hardcore anti-religious. The thought of a person giving up their critical thinking in exchange for a system of beliefs that guarantees to them they're right and others are wrong just repulses me on so many levels.
Since my old days at the Compendium, I've come to understand Shinto a lot better, and there are many respects in which it doesn't fit my older definition of "religion," despite its invocation of divinity and its strong spiritual aspect. In particular, for most people there doesn't seem to be any code of objective morality or universal commandments associated with it. It doesn't really fit the Western conceptualization of religion the way every other major Eastern religion (and each Western one) does. It is seemingly unique in the world, among popular religions, in its lack of forceful objective declarations.
That makes it a lot less threatening than virtually every other large religion.
On top of that, Shinto is predicated upon a different human need than most religions are. Most religions arise out of the dual nature of people's need for order: leaders' need to control their populations, and the public's need for leadership, structure, and guidance in their lives. Shinto isn't about that. With the caveat that my understanding is still rather limited and incomplete, Shinto appears to be predicated on recognizing that the world is beautiful and humans need to have things to care about.
That is more than simply a thing I can tolerate. That's something I personally agree with!
And so, while I am not a Shintoist by any means, I tend to have warm attitudes toward Shinto expressions and interpretations.
To me, Shinto shrines are the lowest and least appealing aspect of Shinto, because they formalize something that needs no formality and shouldn't be formalized in the first place. Nevertheless, as far as houses of worship go, they are by far the most appealing and least off-putting I have ever considered. And it appeals to me that they aren't about themselves, the way churches are. They're about whatever setting they're situated in. I like that.
There are three shinto shrines in the United States. Two in Hawaii and one in Washington.
I didn't know that! Apparently the Washington one is very close to me. I will have to check it out!
Obviously, I'm not a shinto priest, nor do I abide by shinto tradition. But how cool would it be to have a shinto shrine somewhere on the east coast - literally on the opposite side of the world from Japan? I mean, there's enough of a legitimate Japanese population in Nashville to justify a weekend festival, perhaps there's enough to justify a shinto shrine that can act as both a legit place of worship as well as a regional attraction?
This is totally a long shot and highly unrealistic. Nor do I have any sort of long-term plan on how I would even be involved outside of the initial kickoff. But my thoughts are a shinto shrine in Nashville or somewhere else on the east coast.
Obviously, it would be handled as a non-profit and would need to be maintained by a legit shinto priest. There are likely cultural grants that could help acquire the necessary land and building efforts, as well as fundraising efforts. The shrine, once up and running, could be self-maintaining just like those in Japan; the sell of trinkets, fortunes, and blessings could help with the shrine costs and the priest would likely live on the premises and help with operations.
This could provide a backbone of the Japanese regional community, act as a tourist destination, and provide a venue for ceremonies, festivals, and even weddings.
I'm starting a little research now to see if it would even be feasible. Not looking good, but it's worth looking into if it's something I'm passionate about. Like I said, I'm not even sure how I would fit in outside of kicking off the efforts and helping coordinate, but it's a thought I'm currently trying to wrap my mind around.
That is an awesome ambition!
May I make the suggestion that, if you want to succeed in it, you start small and immediate rather than grandiose? You should dive into further studies of Shinto itself, as well as Japanese and Japanese-American culture, to better understand why these shrines exist and how they are utilized, and what the people who visit them think about them.
Then, instead of planning a major construction, think about alternative (cheaper and easier) ways to achieve your core goals embedded inside the vision. You may discover that what you want isn't a Shinto shrine per se, but something else--something more achievable--that merely accompanies these sites.
You will need collaborators and capital. Don't go it alone! In the meantime, draw up a projection of cost estimates and begin researching the legal details associated with land development and construction, operation of the facility, and taxation and bonding and licensing. Get a realistic sense of achievement milestones by which you can mark your progress.
You can get there--but only with serious dedication!
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Alas, as I've gotten older I've more or less become resigned to the fact that it's never going to happen, and I take vicarious pleasure in watching authentic channels like Rachel and Jun and Abroad in Japan featuring those who made it there as permanent residents.
I've been there and still do this. In fact, I still regularly go back and watch old softypapa videos -- he was an American living in Shizuoka with his Japanese wife and daughter. He was ~45-ish and had a very Jack Kerouac-ian independent streak. He regularly went on hikes in the Japanese alps, would record random things, and often detailed his philosophical musings while he stumbled upon old, abandoned tea farms and the like. He moved back to the states in 2013 or 2014 and now explores the deserts of California, finding mines and stuff. If you haven't checked him out, I recommend him. It's a much more nuanced approach to Japan than Jun and Rachel (I love Jun's cooking channel) and Abroad in Japan (still waiting on that Natsuke movie to come out).
If you remember from back in the day, I was (and still am) pretty hardcore anti-religious. The thought of a person giving up their critical thinking in exchange for a system of beliefs that guarantees to them they're right and others are wrong just repulses me on so many levels.
Oh, I remember. I stayed out of those conversations, though. Rhetoric was never my forte. What I believed then also does not align with what I believe now. Which is to say, I believe in nothing. This is it. It's comforting to come to that religion. Despite this, I still have an innate core of spirituality, which I now believe comes from probably millions of years of evolution in communion with nature. This is why nature is where I end up feeling the most spiritual. Which also ties back into that whole Shinto conversion.
Apparently the Washington one is very close to me. I will have to check it out!
If you check it out, give me an update!
That is an awesome ambition!
May I make the suggestion that, if you want to succeed in it, you start small and immediate rather than grandiose? You should dive into further studies of Shinto itself, as well as Japanese and Japanese-American culture, to better understand why these shrines exist and how they are utilized, and what the people who visit them think about them.
Then, instead of planning a major construction, think about alternative (cheaper and easier) ways to achieve your core goals embedded inside the vision. You may discover that what you want isn't a Shinto shrine per se, but something else--something more achievable--that merely accompanies these sites.
You will need collaborators and capital. Don't go it alone! In the meantime, draw up a projection of cost estimates and begin researching the legal details associated with land development and construction, operation of the facility, and taxation and bonding and licensing. Get a realistic sense of achievement milestones by which you can mark your progress.
You can get there--but only with serious dedication!
I definitely have some innate desire to combine nature with civilization. There's a city park here in Chattanooga where they set up a natural water filtration system build into the park; ponds with rows and rows of stones and the like. It's meant to help clean the dirty runoff before it reaches the TN river. It's literally nothing special, but I love going there and fantasizing about being an engineer and designing eco-friendly spaces.
Not that I really want to do that, but it's fun to wear those make believe shoes when in the moment.
I say all that because I think this harkens back to the shinto idea. I have no idea if it's even feasible, because you're right, it would take capital. And tons of effort and time. I envision applying for some sort of cultural grant, but even that would only happen after a business plan was established and protocols properly vetted.
I actually thought a logical first step would be to reach out to the priest at the Washington shrine and pick his brain. He may end up telling me that it won't happen. In the mean time, I am actually doing what you recommend -- trying to study up on Shinto so I have a more fundamental understanding of the religion as a whole.
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Have either of you looked into pantheism? Seems like it's right up your alley.
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Have either of you looked into pantheism? Seems like it's right up your alley.
I have.
I started evangelical Christian (what I was raised), then transitioned into a more liberally-minded Christianity (probably a mix of Catholicism with Episcopalian doctrines) in college.
Later, I realized my beliefs were more in line with some form of agnostic theism, in which I recognized I was no longer confident in the existence of any sort of divinity, and if there was, it did not interact with us. That likewise explored some form of pantheism (all religion are means to the same end; the universe itself is what we contribute as being the 'it')
It wasn't until about five years or so ago I became comfortable with the thought that I was, in fact, an agnostic atheist. I think a good portion of that stems from my need to un-brainwash the conditioning of the super religious, uber-right wing evangelical ("Pharisee," bahaha) environment I had been in for decades.
That all being said, I don't decry anyone for believing in anything. My wife is a devout, albeit mostly level-headed Christian and I still go to church with her out of a desire to maintain stability and keep the peace. I have not and will not try to convince her, and I hope my kids come to believe their own beliefs in time (regardless or not if that aligns with my own religious worldview). The more important thing is the type of people they will become. I know some highly religious people that are wonderful, loving, gracious people. But yeah, I don't maintain any belief in convincing others or anything.
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How did I miss these posts?! This topic is right up my alley. Ha ha!
I'm a lot like you Boo, I prefer to think for myself than to have someone tell me how I'm supposed to think. I consider myself to be agnostic/pagan, even though I haven't "practiced" in quite awhile. I enjoy meditating and tarot card reading among other things. I've just had too many instances in life to not believe in anything. I grew up Catholic and non-denominational (and I would NEVER go back to non-denominational, long story) and just the older I got the more it didn't seem right to me. I support equality for all and I hate how people use Christianity to hate groups of people AND to push their religion on you. I don't push my beliefs on anyone and IMO, that's how it should be. I would rather be agnostic and be kind than be a Christian and be hateful.
Just my 2 cents. :)
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I'd like to briefly butt into this convo, even though it's probably none of my business.
I've sharply matured since the days gone by, including how I view religion and lack of it to be, as well as the concepts of morality therein. I've come to sense that, when it comes to labeling ourselves most of us usually have it wrong -- not because of the labels themselves, but because our tendency to either strongly stick to a label or go about shopping for "what kinds of beliefs define me / could be trendy for me". Some folks end up labeling as agnostic, not because of their genuine interest in materialistic reason and lack of interest in the question of what may never be knowable (in order to move on to other, more important aspects of philosophy and reason), but because they neither want to be labeled as "religious" or "atheistic".
What seldom occurs to us is that perhaps the belief in some kind of divinity or concept of god (or lack of it) is not inherently important, but in fact contingent upon other aspects that define your personal being and existence -- your identity, your values, and further more, how you function in the world around you. Even if we are aware of it in some sense we seldom articulate it, and therefore are incapable of acting out by that reason.
I'm a Pantheist through and through, and yet the concept of God (at least to me) has never been separate from its metaphysics and morality -- even if you were a Christian, Hindu or whatever else you ascribe yourselves to be. For a Christian, perhaps, the concept of God may be a collective anthropomorphous manifestation of Human Goodness, a metaphysical concept that exists beyond Humanity and its arrogance to believe itself to be the final arbiter of Virtue and Vice (not unlike, say, mathematics). On the other hand, the Pantheist, while accepting of that concept for people to function as moral and righteous beings, is opposed to believing in it myself because I believe the idea of Evil is indistinguishable from Divinity itself due to their very existence in reality, and therefore both Triumphs and Tribulations matter, and therefore I need to be a stronger man than I find myself to be right now.
Ultimately, whether or not you believe in a God is pointless unless you clarify the metaphysics of that belief, the reason being how you act in your world around you is strongly determined by those beliefs. What ultimately values to your own identity is not the name of the God but the values you either find or are imparted to you, and the principles that you live by -- ones that matter to you, ones you agree with, as well as ones you honestly (in your heart) KNOW you need it, even if you don't like it. Strongly abiding by those principles, that code of morality, and reflecting upon your actions and slowly updating your principles based on the lessons you've learned in your life is the measure of what sort of a human being you're becoming, or better yet, what you want to become. That determines the guidelines for your pencils to trace on between Good and Evil, Useful and Uselessness, Responsible and Helplessness, Strong and Weak, etc. If you get that from Christianity or Hinduism, that's perfectly fine (heck, I've made friends with plenty of Atheistic Hindu and Atheistic Christians recently).
Besides, if you can't define your own principles, then by whose strings would you be living your life on? In fact, I'd ask, do you have life-jacket in case you drown and take somebody else with you to the abyss?
Meh, I think Dr Jordan B Peterson can probably explain all this better than I can. His lectures have pretty much saved the lives of friends of mine -- and some of them were, and still are, atheists. I've personally found his lectures pretty useful too.
Anywho, that's all I gotta say. *throws smoke-bomb and disappears*
(http://images6.fanpop.com/image/photos/39900000/tumblr-inline-nvd1ywnTxt1rrw2b2-500-magic-kaito-39987584-500-255.gif)
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I think you have the gist of it, tush. I get what you're trying to say. I think your summation to be...
tldr; How your worldview is interpreted - and how you act on it - is more important than labeling yourself.
I think this is true, which is exactly the sentiment I mentioned with my children. The single most important thing in the universe is the type of people they become. That is partially up to me, but ultimately they will go the rest of the way themselves. Let's just hope they have enough 'ingrain moral law' baked in and that I am able to top it up off with my interpretations of values.
I've come to sense that, when it comes to labeling ourselves most of us usually have it wrong -- not because of the labels themselves, but because our tendency to either strongly stick to a label or go about shopping for "what kinds of beliefs define me / could be trendy for me". Some folks end up labeling as agnostic, not because of their genuine interest in materialistic reason and lack of interest in the question of what may never be knowable (in order to move on to other, more important aspects of philosophy and reason), but because they neither want to be labeled as "religious" or "atheistic".
I get what you're saying here, but all I can say is that this is the most millennial thing I've ever heard. Millennials hate having labels placed on them.
:D
I do get what you're saying, though, but I do think labels can be very helpful at times. In the face of religion, most people are not fluid in their religious beliefs (which stems back to my previous post about people being sheep and have an innate need to be herded; we crave order in the chaos that is the natural state of being). It's why most people identify as strictly Christian or Muslim or Hindu or agnostic or atheist. So on and so forth. It simplifies and does, to a large degree, aid in 'shopping' when it comes to interpersonal relationships, as it helps identify like-minded people. This is why, most times, spouses will fall in similar circles of philosophy / theology. Not every single detail may align, but the "big picture" will likely be similar. It's just a fact of life and having such a label isn't a bad thing. It's a form of cataloging people, if you will.
However, I don't necessarily agree that some people label themselves out of trendiness or to avoid falling into one category or another; I think sometimes those are the best short "names" to classify one's viewpoint. Not everyone can be pantheistic, not everyone can say "it's all true." But, sure, there are people who probably do fall into some sort of line of trendiness. As all things are apt to do.
I can't speak for anyone else, as I can only speak for myself, but I get the pantheistic worldview and why some fall into this belief system. It's not a bad belief and I like it. It's attractive; it casts a wide net and allows for a ton of 'customization' in the form of personal interpretation. It's very safe to me. It's accepting and doesn't try to pigeon hole and call everything into fact and error.
In fact, there are certainly elements of pantheism in Hinduism - Veda Vyasa comes to mind. So to some degree, I'm at a cultural disadvantage to you! Hahaha!
(Side note: I work with a mostly Indians these days and I think, fundamentally, Indians are much more open to the idea of pantheism (or a pantheistic-based worldview) than many other cultures. I think it stems from the less black-and-white cultural philosophy influenced by Hinduism than, say, the United States, based on the Heaven-or-Hell philosophy of (most of) Christianity. Or at least that's my observation; I'm not from India, so I can't say for certain.)
For me, despite my soul searching, the universe truly is chaos. There is no order. There is no kismet. There is no luck or cosmic strings pulling and twisting with the ebb and flow of time. I am convinced of this. I am confident in the scientific method, which states there is no empirical evidence to support any sort of deity or supernatural. This led me from organized religion to pantheism.
But I think, ultimately, my pantheistic view ended with similar logic to my theist beliefs in that, if there is a god, s/he would be a "dead" god. I can see every day, all around me, that there is no divinity that influences or provides us with anything. Which, in turn, would make a theoretical God useless. A pantheistic universe is worthless to me. It doesn't connect any of us; we are only the same if we choose to be. All benefit of the belief ends and begins with us.
Even if the universe and all within it is/was/will be god ("we are god and god is us and everything is god"), I guess I have a hard time accepting that, as Spinoza said, "God is the indwelling and not the transient cause of all things." Based purely on the fact that we are alone. We create, kill, heal all by our own hands and reason, not by anything else. Once again, all benefit of the belief (or pantheism) would begin and end with the individual.
Maybe that's selfish of me for thinking that there would be a reason, that there would be a benefit. But that's ultimately where I fell into the atheism category over pantheism. I simply do not, despite previous efforts, believe in something that simply cannot be. Pantheism explains nothing, it is nothing as a result. It's empty because it is nothing. It claims nothing for itself.
Now all that being said, there are elements of pantheism that appeal to me. This is why it was a stop in my personal journey in my beliefs. Pantheism removes the separation from god and mankind; is it not (most) people's journey to be closer to divinity, to touch the heavens of godkind, to beseech that which is greater than us? I love this aspect of pantheism, because it removes all of the division between us and them, when at the end of the day, everything is the "we." I get this in atheism as well.
Another thing I love about pantheism is how it reflects freedom. It removes the "choice" of religion and allows all to be true/not true all at the same time. It opens up the floodgates of interpretation. It is true freedom. It makes it so easy to see past the man-created divides of mankind and see our fellow man for what they are: the same thing as us. As a humanist, it allows people to accept and come together. As Spinoza said, "nothing forbids man to enjoy himself, save grim and gloomy superstition." By this 'virtue,' it challenges us to be good in the name of sameness, rather than by a hypothetical theology-based religion. One doesn't need to be good in the name of a god, for we are all god and it is how we should be. I also get this from atheism (although I cannot claim that anything comes from anywhere but from within, so there is that caveat).
Ultimately, whether or not you believe in a God is pointless unless you clarify the metaphysics of that belief, the reason being how you act in your world around you is strongly determined by those beliefs. What ultimately values to your own identity is not the name of the God but the values you either find or are imparted to you, and the principles that you live by -- ones that matter to you, ones you agree with, as well as ones you honestly (in your heart) KNOW you need it, even if you don't like it. Strongly abiding by those principles, that code of morality, and reflecting upon your actions and slowly updating your principles based on the lessons you've learned in your life is the measure of what sort of a human being you're becoming, or better yet, what you want to become. That determines the guidelines for your pencils to trace on between Good and Evil, Useful and Uselessness, Responsible and Helplessness, Strong and Weak, etc.
We've come full circle. How you act - the person you are - trumps all else. I couldn't agree with you more. I know just as many shitty Christians as I know good ones... just as I know just as many shitty people as I know good ones. Some people get challenged on this, because they think that morality must be defined by something larger than us rather than a combination of ingrain moral law and personal worldview. I think this is what you meant when you were discussing labels. Labels are meaningless if they do not constitute action (behaviors). By this logic, all that is important is who we are.
Treat others how you want to be treated is always a great mindset to have. I try to live by it every day, even to my own self-detriment at times.
Meh, I think Dr Jordan B Peterson can probably explain all this better than I can. His lectures have pretty much saved the lives of friends of mine -- and some of them were, and still are, atheists. I've personally found his lectures pretty useful too.
I find Dr. Peterson to be a mixed bag. But now I'm curious how/why your atheist friends needed saving. Saved from what?
Edited for typos.
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tldr; How your worldview is interpreted - and how you act on it - is more important than labeling yourself.
Also, "be clear about your ethics, bruh". Coherency is the utmost important, and that's why articulation matters. Not everyone is capable of articulating, though, but they are capable of accruing wisdom by taking on responsibilities and thereby experiencing life through hardship (aka, those "trials and tribulations", and ultimately "triumphs", that I mentioned).
Recent sociopolitical drama (both in India and globally) has pretty much exhausted me, but it has also given me a lot to think about. Because of my own innate nature (being unable to understand social norms, what is and isn't appropriate, what I should or shouldn't say, etc.), I've pretty much become a Shitlord, testing the boundaries of what is and isn't moral and to what extent, and with certain triumphs and failures I've become more confident with myself (even if, at times, somebody might despise me for it) having a coherent justification for my actions, and yet at the same time having clearly defined boundaries for myself that I will never cross, or which boundaries I have to cross only when specific dire circumstances call for it. This is how my inner Gandhian pacifist also reconciles with my recently integrated value of viciousness, or integrating my shadow, if you will.
And I do this, not because I wish to ally myself with some ideology, not because I'm afraid to be labeled or something, but primarily because I want to be effective at what I do, self-dependant, also somebody that people I care about can depend on. If I cannot take care of, and protect and provide for, the people I love, then I will regard myself as a failure. That will be my hell.
This is essentially an act of Soul Construction (something that Dr JBP calls, but applies to a different context than I have), and the more formidable soul you're capable of building the more integrity it possesses, the more confident you are, and the less likely it is capable of being broken. I have yet to reach that apex -- a destination I call Cyan Los.
I get what you're saying here, but all I can say is that this is the most millennial thing I've ever heard. Millennials hate having labels placed on them.
But that's not what I'm saying, and I think you misunderstand me. I never said labels are a bad thing.
Millennials are weird, they eschew labels and identify themselves with even more of them, all because they're drowning in their own uncertainty. And then they whine about having anxieties. (I have sympathies with people who are genuinely suffering from Depression and Anxieties and can't help it. But Millenials CAN help it; it's just that they're too stupid and arrogant to want to. I know because I tried to help most of them.)
What I mean is that labels are useful, just not as useful as the things they are meant to represent -- as descriptors to your values. Using inaccurate descriptors, much like having a bad synopsis for a book, will only cause a massive confusion with expectations and coherency between you and your held values, and it compromises your integrity as a person. It makes you metaphysically (and often psychologically) vulnerable. That's my general point: utility for utility's sake.
However, the issue with utility for utility's sake when it comes to labels is, of course as you pointed out, a social negotiation between people to help catalog and generalize you. But I'd argue that they have to, at least on first sight, because at first they would know nothing about you, and need an anchor of expectation to help define you as an individual. This is also another reason why sometimes people foolishly apply labels to themselves, no because represent the values inherent in that label, but because it has currency in social affair. This is also why having an accurate label for yourself matters if you wish to communicate exactly who or what you are.
For me, Pantheism has only ever been a personal label for me, to keep track of myself, and nothing more. There has seldom a point in any social interaction that I actually identified myself as one, because there's just no need for it, unless there is.
(Side note: I work with a mostly Indians these days and I think, fundamentally, Indians are much more open to the idea of pantheism (or a pantheistic-based worldview) than many other cultures. I think it stems from the less black-and-white cultural philosophy influenced by Hinduism than, say, the United States, based on the Heaven-or-Hell philosophy of (most of) Christianity. Or at least that's my observation; I'm not from India, so I can't say for certain.)
Hah! Maybe the reason is the fact that Hinduism inherently consists of a Pantheistic system (as well as an Atheistic one.... don't ask how, it's a pretty complex system even for me). Most Hindus know this with the saying, "There's God in every grain of sand". However, the versions of Pantheism between Hinduism and Spinoza are not the same. They are compatible, however.
:wink:
For me, despite my soul searching, the universe truly is chaos. There is no order.
And that's the issue here. Order isn't granted to you. Order is yours to make. The scientific method is a manifestation of that human-invented structure of reason, because without some semblance of Order it will be nigh-impossible for you to navigate through Chaos.
In fact, I'm writing a funny poem on that, and I think I have an idea... Hmm....
However, I don't think you're a stranger to this idea, given what you mentioned earlier about nature and civilization.
I am confident in the scientific method, which states there is no empirical evidence to support any sort of deity or supernatural.
Yeah. And nobody cares. xD Even in organized religion, the belief of a supernatural deity is nothing more than simplified understanding of tradition for those who don't have the capacity to comprehend it -- I would know, because I know how traditions are interpreted regardless of what they were meant to be about. For the people who CAN comprehend, on the other hand, trying to find an empirical evidence for such a deity is meaningless because the deity is meant to be metaphysical concept, a system of ideas (a philosophy, if you will) rather than something materialistic to quantify. But regardless of whether you can or cannot comprehend it, as a complex system of ideas, that deity serves a function -- guidelines to trace your steps on.
I'm not particularly religious, for instance (honestly, the only Supernatural God I believe in is our lord and savior Joseph Joestar), but where do you think my beliefs come from? What sort of beliefs do you think Atheistic Christians might have?
But I think, ultimately, my pantheistic view ended with similar logic to my theist beliefs in that, if there is a god, s/he would be a "dead" god. I can see every day, all around me, that there is no divinity that influences or provides us with anything.
And that was part of my point earlier: You're stuck arguing with yourself about the existence of God, without going further or deeper, such as what that God is meant to represent, or what sort of a manifestation is that God. If you can't escape your mental loop to analyze that, then you will be unable to go even further than that, and therefore unable to comprehend what you are constantly thinking about.
But that's ultimately where I fell into the atheism category over pantheism.
That's perfectly fine, man. Question is, where do your values come from? What is the pillar that you check yourself by and quantify your progress? What is your end-goal? What is your daily campaign?
I say this because Atheism is not a pillar of morality. It is a descriptor for a lack of supernatural deity. If you say you get it from Empathy, I'm going to laugh at you.
IMO, you seem to take a lot of aspects from different religions and cultures, such as what you love about Pantheism and Hinduism as you say. So if you're constructing your own pillar based on the best things you find from different culture (such as, "Work Ethic" from Protestantism), the only question left would be how coherent that pillar is, and how frequently you update it in order to abide by it religiously and track your progress. Not a bad thing. In fact, it's a necessity for everything.
One doesn't need to be good in the name of a god
Eh, that's a pretty archaic way to view God. I wouldn't blame you for perceiving it that way, though, considering a lot of religious nut-heads (especially Islamists) who do a lot of shady (and often self-righteous) things "in the name of" a God.
That is the big issue you get when you start to vied God as a supernatural All-Powerful Being that can do anything (including erase your sins), rather than what it actually is -- a series of allegories, a metophorical concept, a set of ideas necessitating to be held as "Supreme", existing outside and beyond humanity (unless you're a Pantheist; then it's embedded within humanity). From that perspective, saying "being good in the name of a god" is redundant and nonsensical, because then you're better off saying, "Being good in the name of a name of a name of a name."
Some people get challenged on this, because they think that morality must be defined by something larger than us rather than a combination of ingrain moral law and personal worldview.
But those people are correct, though. For one, there are personal moral codes (example: Don't leave your injured friend behind), but then there are also universal moral codes (example: Thou shalt not kill / betray / steal). Universality of some of those morals are supremely larger than us all, far larger than any collective we know.
Also, the whole point of having that manifestation of morality as something separate and outside of one's self is that we can't trust ourselves, as individuals (or collective) to be the final arbiters of Goodness, because we can be morally compromised, and as a result we may do shitty things. Sometimes we, as individuals, do evil things believing those actions are good and righteous (aka, our self-righteousness). See: God-Kings.
Labels are meaningless if they do not constitute action (behaviors). By this logic, all that is important is who we are.
Yes. And if what you are is incomplete, then that causes a serious issue not just for you but also everybody around you, no matter what label you ascribe yourself. A broken self constitutes a broken behavior. So essentially, what's important is to have a set of rules for yourself and stick to it. Religiously.
Treat others how you want to be treated is always a great mindset to have. I try to live by it every day, even to my own self-detriment at times.
I concur. Although, that's a very Christian / Kantian thing to say. 8)
I find Dr. Peterson to be a mixed bag. But now I'm curious how/why your atheist friends needed saving. Saved from what?
Doesn't really matter, tbh. He's just a man; he makes mistakes, says the wrong things sometimes. What matters is if his ideas serve utility, and for a lot of people it does.
As for my friends, some of them were ideologues, and as a result they were a mess in their own lives. Some of them were legitimately depressed and wanted to kill themselves. Some of them were struggling hard in their life and relationships. Some of them were too weak to do anything about their dire circumstances, where they were always trampled upon by everybody. Some of them were just arrogant fucks who acted despicable because there was never any consequences to their actions, until one day it came to bite them in the ass and they were too helpless to do anything about it, making them even more jaded.
I'd hate to make Dr Peterson sound like some kind of a messiah, but he really did turn a lot of lives around. My ideologue friends became more open-minded and organized. My depressed friends managed to regain their self-efficacy and work towards being more effective at overcoming their sickness (with some medical intervention, of course). Relationship folks just got better at love. The weak ones found a way out of their pit. The dicks became more humble and, further more, helpful and responsible.
Me? I accrued some free wisdom, foresight, exponentially increasing my ability to learn and get better, conquer my weaknesses, learning gratitude, being patient with people, being a bit more disciplined and focused (which is hard for me, but I managed it at the detriment to my own health, which I'm working on again), organize my life, learning to negotiate with people even if I don't like them, being goal-oriented, etc. All sorts of things I could never imagine my younger self from a few years ago to be capable of. And I still don't think I'm at my best, lol.
And what's interesting is that none of us even needed to buy into his Christian views (except for, obviously, Christian friends). His work is helpful either way. And that's weird, because he says a lot of stupid shit about Hinduism. XD But I can pardon that for the bigger picture.
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I don't have time to fully respond the way I'd like, but I'll address a few thoughts and return later:
And that's the issue here. Order isn't granted to you. Order is yours to make. The scientific method is a manifestation of that human-invented structure of reason, because without some semblance of Order it will be nigh-impossible for you to navigate through Chaos.
There is certainty a natural order that occurs in nature - atoms and molecules in align in certain ways to make elements and life, and water is fundamental to life, so on and so forth. That is natural order. But events are largely chaos; cancer is chaos, conception is chaos, the big bang in and of itself is chaos. Order, beyond the natural order of the universe that occurs naturally and on a scientific scale, is simply applying a human need for order. Any order that exists is a man-made construct and a concept, like time.
Even in organized religion, the belief of a supernatural deity is nothing more than simplified understanding of tradition for those who don't have the capacity to comprehend it -- I would know, because I know how traditions are interpreted regardless of what they were meant to be about. For the people who CAN comprehend, on the other hand, trying to find an empirical evidence for such a deity is meaningless because the deity is meant to be metaphysical concept, a system of ideas (a philosophy, if you will) rather than something materialistic to quantify. But regardless of whether you can or cannot comprehend it, as a complex system of ideas, that deity serves a function -- guidelines to trace your steps on.
What your describing sounds awfully similar to faith. I know it's more nuanced than that, but let's simplify there, because there are many people who take religion (and a belief in god) to be more than metaphysical mumbo-jumbo as you describe. That may have been your experience, but I can guarantee you now that it's not the same for many "believers" out there.
And that was part of my point earlier: You're stuck arguing with yourself about the existence of God, without going further or deeper, such as what that God is meant to represent, or what sort of a manifestation is that God. If you can't escape your mental loop to analyze that, then you will be unable to go even further than that, and therefore unable to comprehend what you are constantly thinking about.
No, this is wrong. I'm not arguing about an existence of anything. To you and certainly not to myself. There's no convincing or justifying. Just to be clear, I'm not trying to convince you or anyone else of anything; that's not my role and I don't give a rat's ass who believes what, since what I value is character. It's the same point you keep trying to drive home. I think we fall in line there regardless of any other aspects.
Despite what you claimed, I do know is what "god" is to people and the purpose it serves; to say that I "can't escape [my] mental loop to analyze that" blah blah blah shows that you missed my point. Your claims are, quite frankly, shallow and show a piousness that is befitting of your self-described embrace of the Shitlord. This is ego. The irony! Let's tie it back to faith, since that is a crux for many believers out there. Clearly you aren't one of them, but the point remains:
Faith is described as Mirriam-Webster as "firm belief in something for which there is no proof" or "something that is believed especially with strong conviction." All other definitions can go out the window and are mute on this point.
Faith is belief in something, anything that is a deity and does not have tangible proof. To be Christian, Hindu, etc. is to have faith, because there is no empirical evidence that such a concept exists beyond our mind. There is no tangible real world application... and this applies to pantheism, since your belief is not that god is a tall man (or woman) in the clouds ready to smite you, or that there is a pantheon of gods embodying attributes of man, but rather that the universe and all itself is a manifestation of god. You remove the human elements but still attain that there's this unknown element that science, once again, cannot quantify.
This still, ultimately, comes down to faith. Does that make sense?
... Where do your values come from? What is the pillar that you check yourself by and quantify your progress? What is your end-goal? What is your daily campaign?
I say this because Atheism is not a pillar of morality. It is a descriptor for a lack of supernatural deity. If you say you get it from Empathy, I'm going to laugh at you.
IMO, you seem to take a lot of aspects from different religions and cultures, such as what you love about Pantheism and Hinduism as you say. So if you're constructing your own pillar based on the best things you find from different culture (such as, "Work Ethic" from Protestantism), the only question left would be how coherent that pillar is, and how frequently you update it in order to abide by it religiously and track your progress. Not a bad thing. In fact, it's a necessity for everything.
Ah, the old argument against atheism. "If a deity doesn't tell you how to behave, then how to do you know?"
For starters, there's ingrain moral law. Read up on it, it's fascinating. All humans are born, regardless of civilization, with certain self-composed "rules" that they recognize as being right or wrong. These aren't taught, they're "ingrain" at birth. This includes lying (which is in itself not a taught ability; people don't learn to lie, they simple discover it internally - it's a form of self-preservation on an evolutionary scale). Ingrain moral law also includes killing. So on and so forth, these are baked into a baby upon being born and aren't taught.
Second, societal values. Society teaches us values from the moment we are embraced by the convergence of people in our lives. We learn the cues that are unique to our socio-political makeup, and sometimes geographic. This may involve how we treat stranger, how we treat women. It comes back to chaos and chance - where are born is chance, and where we are born thus influences the societal values we inherit. Granted, there are always outliers who choose to reject these societal norms, and they're often shunned or punished.
Third, you answered your own question earlier in your post. Allow me to quote you: I learn as I go, as I am testing the boundaries of what is and isn't moral and to what extent, and with certain triumphs and failures "I" become more confident with myself ... yet at the same time having clearly defined boundaries for myself that I will never cross, or which boundaries I have to cross only when specific dire circumstances call for it.
It's not difficult to define the values we can choose to live our lives by, and although those may be influenced by religion (on a societal scale), they don't have to be defined by them. I never claimed that atheism was even remotely tied to morality, you simply assumed that I did. This assumes one of two things: either you don't really understand atheism, or you assume that I don't.
And, to give you a real, honest answer and step away from the fun of rhetoric, there's also a very real answer beyond the same reasons any of us inherit morality and values. To be quite honest, a lot of my moral views still align with the programming that comes with having spent twenty years in fervent dedication to a Christian version "god." My values largely correspond with Christian leanings because, quite frankly, it's what I know. I spent two decades in it, studied theology in college (as a minor), and my dad is a minister. I lived, breathed, and shit Christianity. That being said, the same values I reflect are largely echoed in most, if not all major religions... be kind/respectful, do not fall prey to the material, etc. Normal wisdom echoed in religion and philosophy all over. Some of my own beliefs have also been tempered with study of other religious doctrine in my own pursuit of truth. From there I made my own way by, no different from you, in defining those boundaries for myself.
Eh, that's a pretty archaic way to view God
You may have missed the sarcasm there. It was meant to be taken as such, because there are people who believe this. They believe than an atheist cannot be moral because they believe that morality can only be defined by their own god.
... My ideologue friends became more open-minded and organized. My depressed friends managed to regain their self-efficacy and work towards being more effective at overcoming their sickness (with some medical intervention, of course). Relationship folks just got better at love. The weak ones found a way out of their pit. The dicks became more humble and, further more, helpful and responsible.
But what does this have to do with your friends being atheists? Those aren't attributes unique to atheists, those are universal truths that many people struggle with. It's existential angst, if anything. In your original post you specifically said "His lectures have pretty much saved the lives of friends of mine -- and some of them were, and still are, atheists"; what does them being atheists? I'm trying to understand the correlation, because it sounds like you are implying they needed saving because they were atheists. That may not have been your intent, though.
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Quite a bit to digest here. I will say, I have no idea what an "Atheist Christian" is supposed to be. Also, "All benefit of the belief ends and begins with us." is a pretty powerful statement, Boo. I'm gonna mull over that for a while.
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Quite a bit to digest here. I will say, I have no idea what an "Atheist Christian" is supposed to be. Also, "All benefit of the belief ends and begins with us." is a pretty powerful statement, Boo. I'm gonna mull over that for a while.
Here's the kicker... Pantheism is awesome. It's, to me, the most coherent truth, assuming that something larger than us exists in some form. It bridges the divides in religious doctrine and is a unifying concept. How cool is that? I mean, let me clear: my rhetoric is NOT against pantheism. My rhetoric is rather a defense of atheism as a real, legitimate worldview that is often misunderstood. It's very hard for people to grasp unless you're in that belief structure (which, in reality, is sort of true of all beliefs, isn't it?).
As an agnostic atheist, I am okay with being proven wrong. If pantheism or Tom Cruise ends up being right, I'm cool with it. As of this moment, my worldview is simply based around what has proof and what does not. No proof for god is just that: no proof. "Then what about soul," some would respond. Welp, there may not be tangible evidence for a soul in a laboratory, but because I exist, I must therefore have a soul, and therefore I know it exists.
Morality is not limited to deism in whatever form it takes. I think some people have a hard time grasping this. At the end of the day, what purpose does religion serve but the ego?
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...my rhetoric is NOT against pantheism.
Oh, of course. I didn't even think of it as such. I just really enjoyed that phrase I quoted from you. Made me stop and think.
You and tush were talking about labels, and if I had to give myself one in regards to this topic, I'd call myself a pantheist. That's why I brought it up to begin with. Not that I believe the universe is "god", per se, but I have a deep reverence for nature that borders on spirituality. Pantheism is the closest label I can find to that. It's not even that the label is important but just learning that there's a group of people who feel similar to how I feel is really nice, and I can learn more about myself by looking into this belief. And to answer your (probably rhetorical) last question, I think community, especially of like-minded individuals, is the purpose of religion. Well, one purpose at least.
And who knows, maybe I'll follow a path similar to yours and eventually decide I feel more agnostic/atheist. I'm still learning myself.
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That's why I brought it up to begin with. Not that I believe the universe is "god", per se, but I have a deep reverence for nature that borders on spirituality.
This is me, too! For years I went to church and felt nothing. I go for a hike for 10 minutes and I get that "hiker's high" and feel deeply, spiritually connected - I feel harmonious and energized and at peace with myself. I've tried to wrap my mind around how all this works. Maybe is it a cosmic oneness? Maybe it's millions of years of evolutionary pathways converging to remind me that that is where I come from?
I mean, for millions of years mankind lived in harmonious nature with the earth. Not even just mankind, but our ancestors, too (assuming any sort of belief in all that). Regardless, we lived in harmony with nature and slowly developed civilization as a more efficient means of survival, and we gradually moved into more sterile, less nature-oriented environs. And now I find peace in returning to what eons of evolution instilled within me.
I've often wondered if that's why there's so much mental illness and depression nowadays. We are denying a "oneness" we once held in communion with nature. Not even a oneness, since we manipulated and "ruled" nature, but we still lived in it. Used it. Cherished it.
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I never claimed that atheism was even remotely tied to morality, you simply assumed that I did. This assumes one of two things: either you don't really understand atheism, or you assume that I don't.
Despite what you claimed, I do know is what "god" is to people and the purpose it serves; to say that I "can't escape [my] mental loop to analyze that" blah blah blah shows that you missed my point. Your claims are, quite frankly, shallow and show a piousness that is befitting of your self-described embrace of the Shitlord. This is ego. The irony!
Ouch!
Forgetting that you've constantly been missing my points throughout your responses (what with "that sounds like faith" to a statement that is meant to be about faith), or pointless pedantry, stating the obvious and digressing from the subject-matter to which the initial statement was made -- all of which I can pardon due to them being nothing more than human error -- I think, worse still, is the sense of this possibly coming from mean-spiritedness and antagonism.
And where there's mean-spiritedness, it's impossible to have a conversation because we'll likely be talking past each other. This isn't a forum I come to pick fights. You aren't the person I'm looking to take down. In all honesty, I don't think I should continue with this any further. Heck, I shouldn't have continued beyond my first response either. I've learned from my error.
Ah, the old argument against atheism. "If a deity doesn't tell you how to behave, then how to do you know?"
For starters, there's ingrain moral law. Read up on it, it's fascinating. All humans are born, regardless of civilization, with certain self-composed "rules" that they recognize as being right or wrong. These aren't taught, they're "ingrain" at birth. This includes lying (which is in itself not a taught ability; people don't learn to lie, they simple discover it internally - it's a form of self-preservation on an evolutionary scale). Ingrain moral law also includes killing. So on and so forth, these are baked into a baby upon being born and aren't taught.
Faith is belief in something, anything that is a deity and does not have tangible proof. To be Christian, Hindu, etc. is to have faith, because there is no empirical evidence that such a concept exists beyond our mind.
*sigh* You'd have to be really fucking naive if you have to make this, "So WhAt YoU'rE SayyYiingggGG" tactic to get around to actually having to understand what somebody is actually saying. That's despite the fact that I was already crystal clear about what I've said, many times over, and everything I've said is contingent upon the other.
All I'll tell you is this: Go read some philosophy. Not everything can be reduced to materialism (and that's ironic coming from a Pantheist like me).
Anywho, I'm out.
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Feel perfectly free not to respond, but I do have more to say on the matter.
Forgetting that you've constantly been missing my points throughout your responses ... or pointless pedantry, stating the obvious and digressing from the subject-matter to which the initial statement was made -- all of which I can pardon due to them being nothing more than human error -- I think, worse still, is the sense of this possibly coming from mean-spiritedness and antagonism.
To put it simply, you're wrong. You keep talking in flowery speech that lacks rhetorical value in the context of some of those points; you don't even respond to some of the questions I asked in return! Worse still, you've relied on arrogance and ego in the hope of making a valid argument stick to the wall (can you really read your above quote and not recognize the hubris?). If I can understand Kierkegaard and Nietzsche, I'm pretty sure I can follow you.
But we can agree to disagree, because ultimately all of this stems from differences in worldview. There's going to be disagreement. Regardless, this whole conversation, from my end, is still steeped in respect for you and your belief in those opinions (despite any discourse). Calling it "mean-spiritedness and antagonism" is surprising though; you know me better than that - when have I ever been antagonistic to anyone? This is rhetoric and should be taken as much. If you feel that I have been mean-spirited, then I apologize; that was definitely not the intended result. So for that I apologize. Seriously.
When you first responded to my post and dove in, you had to known it was going to lead to a challenging discussion. I feel, whether rightly or not, that you let your hubris get the best of you and have made some pretty base assumptions about how I perceive the universe. Regardless, when you were trying to articulate your feelings in your "I'm out" post, it's funny, because I'm feeling all the same things as you in regards to the other party not comprehending, sidestepping, not addressing things I asked to be addressed, etc. So in that, we stand together!
Down the road, if you'll lay your ego down long enough to come back and have a real, genuine conversation without relying on assumption and accusation, I'll gladly further educate myself and read additional philosophy (as you recommend).
(Although let it be known that I do have some philosophy 'learnings'. Just so you're aware, I took several 100 and 200 level philosophy courses at uni, have a theology minor from a Christian uni, and have spent countless hours in existential angst reading the works of writers like Kierkegaard, Sartre, Foucault, etc... I don't think I'm as baseless in philosophy as you think I am. But there's always room for more self-actualization!)
Just to be clear, there's no hard feelings on my end. This kind of passionate rhetoric is par for the course when it comes to theological discourse, and this has not been about, to me anyway, changing any opinions. It hasn't been my first, nor will it by my last rodeo. But all is good between us on my end. I assume it is the same from yours.
In mean time, keep fighting on as Cyan Los. Row row fight the powah, am I right?
To echo the words of Cyan Los, Anywho, I'm out.
:D
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Have either of you looked into pantheism? Seems like it's right up your alley.
I don't have any need for any kind of divinity in my life; it's just not how my mind works. I don't need what theism offers.
But! As you might be able to infer from my writing elsewhere, on animism, Silence, and so forth, if I were to be a theist I would very likely be a pantheist or polytheist. I already am, in a sense; I just don't attach a divine premise or any universal claims of objective truth to my thoughts on the matter.
It wasn't until about five years or so ago I became comfortable with the thought that I was, in fact, an agnostic atheist. I think a good portion of that stems from my need to un-brainwash the conditioning of the super religious, uber-right wing evangelical ("Pharisee," bahaha) environment I had been in for decades.
With that hair?!!! You were a right-wing evangelical with hair like that?!!! :o :o :o
=P
But this would explain why we didn't have much interaction in the old days: I do not have a ton of patience for right-wing Christianity.
That all being said, I don't decry anyone for believing in anything.
Yeah, I've gotten a little more tolerant about this. Partly because I have other things to occupy my priorities, but also partly because I've realized it isn't as important as I once thought: The people who become right-wing religious extremists are likely to be bad eggs in most timelines / social contexts. The religion and conservatism really bring it out and make it shine, but, for as evil as some of those religious structures are, it isn't as fully their doing that rotten right-wing fanatics are rotten. There's a lot more to it, and, realizing that, it becomes unbecoming of my own philosophy to single out religion as squarely as I used to.
And who are we kidding: There's also the tired factor, as in: God DAMN I am just friggin' TIRED of the same shit over and over again. I've done my bit for king and country; let's have a new generation of agitators fight against the dominionists on settled questions of fact and science and basic human rights.
I know some highly religious people that are wonderful, loving, gracious people.
I do know some awesome religious people. But, except for some older people, I do not know a single "highly" religious person who is also those other qualities you mention. Extreme religiosity tends to function like a cult, and it pushes the good qualities out of its brainwashed exponents.
I enjoy meditating and tarot card reading among other things.
Oh golly have I got some stories to tell about tarot...tarot is awesome!
I grew up Catholic and non-denominational (and I would NEVER go back to non-denominational, long story) and just the older I got the more it didn't seem right to me.
That's a fascinating aside. Usually, non-denominationalism is the "civil-minded, agree-to-disagree" choice of Christian sects. If you're comfortable sharing, what happened?
I would rather be agnostic and be kind than be a Christian and be hateful.
Yep. Religion owns no monopoly on character, ethics, integrity, honor, or virtue of any kind. If it could but concede that one point, religion would be so much less of a threat to the world.
That's why I brought it up to begin with. Not that I believe the universe is "god", per se, but I have a deep reverence for nature that borders on spirituality.
Indeed! That's probably a part of why you're attracted to my work. We are very similar here. I come to this through my animism and world-love.
Lastly, I feel like I should say something on the conversation tushantin and Boo were having. As someone who has been that participant in that conversation many times, I notice a few things:
1. It was honestly one of the more intellectually substantive exchanges I've seen on the Compendium since my return.
2. It blew up when tushantin misunderstood Boo's tone and turned belligerent. I've made that mistake myself, and I would have appreciated someone capable of pointing it out when it happened, so I'm doing that here now. We should all expect to vigorously disagree with one another on many things. That's why we're not all copies of the same person. Now that most of us are in our 30s, I think we're all better able to tolerate such a lack of conformity and simply take an interest in the viewpoints of others without feeling the need that their views should become ours.
3. Tush, I don't think Boo deliberately refused to address your points. At worst he didn't understand them. More likely, however, is that, as is always the case, people have different things that are important to them, that resonate with them. (I mean, hell, I just spent two posts in another thread talking about my Fat Celes FFVI fanfic. No one is going to care about that the way I do.)
This lack of resonance in others should never be taken as a personal affront. This is a lesson that took me a very long time to learn; hopefully you can learn it faster than I did. Back in the old days, I supremely disliked you, but today I realize that much of what made me dislike you was simply a lack of paying attention to, and addressing, what was important to me. I spent a lot of energy trying to give you insight into my thoughts, and you gleefully ignored that and continued on in your own vein. It wasn't ignorance on your part, just distinctiveness, self-absorption, and a lack of social tact (each of which are qualities I share).
That said, by the very same token I think you could do more to accommodate the viewpoints of others. For whatever it's worth, I'm going to try and put my negative feelings about you in the past and move forward in this Bold New Compendium Era with goodwill toward all. It won't last long if you decide to be a shitlord here, but if you keep on writing thoughtful things and at least occasionally acknowledge the words of others, I hope you can trust that you will, in turn, be listened to by others, myself included.
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I hope you can trust that you will, in turn, be listened to by others, myself included.
Look, man, it's been a while, and I doubt anybody even knows me that well. I'm past caring at this point. The only shit I write for others anymore is if it might be useful to them, or if it personally amuses me. If you find it helpful, that's fine, I'm glad you did. If you don't want to hear it, that's fine too, just tell me as honestly as you can, and I won't have to waste my time doing it -- the time I can utilize on other things that are important to me. Like emailing clients (which I don't have enough of, and need to win over more of them).
Those who know me well are no strangers to the fact that I largely try to live my life on the principle of utility. Anything that serves none of it is ultimately useless to me. Including this post of mine as I write, but I just believed you might deserve a response either way.
I supremely disliked you, but today I realize that much of what made me dislike you was simply a lack of paying attention to, and addressing, what was important to me. I spent a lot of energy trying to give you insight into my thoughts, and you gleefully ignored that and continued on in your own vein. It wasn't ignorance on your part, just distinctiveness, self-absorption, and a lack of social tact (each of which are qualities I share).
Funny, I could say the same about you.
I really had no qualms trying to understand other people's perspectives in the Compendium before, having learned so much from Xcalibur and Syna on Tarot Cards, Satoh when it comes to art, some other members when it comes to mythology, Zeality when it comes to Atheism and the Stoics, etc. despite the fact that my primary personal beliefs aligned with none of those. I did not have to keep tying "Yes, I agree / acknowledge" for them to know that I understood them -- I simply built upon their statements with my own perspectives, and that was largely understood by everybody except you. And yes, I even understood you, even though I did not agree with you -- I instead chose to antagonize you because you deliberately chose to piss me off for no apparent reason besides your own ego back then, even if I initially meant no ill towards anybody (however, it seems like you've changed since then).
Heck, I even tried to relieve tensions between Katie Skyye and Zeality bickering over atheism / religious people by understand both their perspectives. There's a reason nobody else besides you drew my ire.
You have to understand that I was very new at this sort of culture back then, with nothing similar existing in my neck of the woods, not to mention the massive cultural differences between us, despite which you chose to judge me based on yours rather than the integrity of my own -- which is, before I even understood what your culture was like. Unlike you, I wasn't very articulate either, so obviously I had a harder time trying to explain my perspective, many times which was (somehow) taken to mean something else entirely (for example: Sajainta's chimping out, which I now I believe i should not have apologized for nor deleted my post, because I did nothing wrong, but still -- back then -- thought was a mature thing to do, and I really did not want to hurt anybody; which you also conveniently used as a means to bitch about me to other people at least once). Back then I actually expected that somebody like you, who really liked to flaunt their intelligence, would have the capacity to at least understand what I'm saying rather than distort it and fling it back at me like a turd. Maybe I did not know how different intelligence was from wisdom -- you possessed only one, while I possessed neither save for practical artistic potential.
Weirdly enough, that's what FaustWolf did: Even though I was seldom able to explain myself well, he was always able to articulate exactly what I was thinking better than I ever could. So in some way he helped calm the extreme stress that you provided to me, while refocusing me back to art and helping me understand things that would -- inevitably -- also help me assess things and speak better. Which I sucked balls at. He also helped me learn (at least a little bit) how to deal with this sort of stress / experience, which was the first step for me to learn how to not be a fuckin' snowflake.
Honestly, if it wasn't for FaustWolf, I'd probably have quit Compendium pretty early, because the toxicity was really affecting me and the way I was starting to behave. But I don't blame that on you. Ultimately it was because I was too freaking weak, stupid and vulnerable, and perhaps I needed that bad + good experience to learn from it. If I were to go back, I'd probably slap my younger self, rather than slap you, for being so pathetic, and subsequently tell myself to man-up.
Now the question is: How far will you go to understand and acknowledge what I just wrote here for you, in the same fashion as you asked me to be accommodation of different viewpoints? If it's far enough, then I'm glad if we can be on the same page so we can discuss more important things. If you can't even, then I'm afraid this was yet another of my futile attempts at writing a wall of text that benefits nobody, not even me, and I'll try not to do that again.
Tush, I don't think Boo deliberately refused to address your points. At worst he didn't understand them. More likely, however, is that, as is always the case, people have different things that are important to them, that resonate with them. (I mean, hell, I just spent two posts in another thread talking about my Fat Celes FFVI fanfic. No one is going to care about that the way I do.)
This lack of resonance in others should never be taken as a personal affront.
Man, i don't really give a flying fuck what you and Boo believe. That's how libertarian my spirit is right now. I have no business telling you what you should or shouldn't believe (so long as it's not threatening me in any way currently, or as long as you're not my friend to be concerned about your well-being), because I cannot even pretend to be in your shoes and therefore I have no way of knowing what is even good for you. Besides, you two are adults. You folks should be able to know and decide what's good for you and take responsibility for it better than anybody else can -- and I think you can agree with that.
(IF it isn't a debate) The only thing I can do is to understand why you believe the way you do, and in return offer my perspectives in as detached a manner as possible (unless we're close friends, so I can call you a moron, and you'd know I don't mean ill by it). If we disagree on something, and if I find your disagreement to be lacking perspective, I will offer you that perspective and explain why I believe differently, and I will leave it up to you to make your own conclusions. Which is precisely how I approached my conversation with Boo, because if it earns me no benefit (such as, actual money I can have in my bank-account) then it serves me no benefit to try to change your mind.
I don't have conversations to change people's minds. I'm not a sales person, and I suck at the job anyway. And this partly comes from the fact that I have no master to serve in the name of any ideology or religion / atheism / cult, and I'm entirely driven by self-interest.
I've stated my linchpins in my conversation with Boo. However, I'll also point out that I do not appreciate being intentionally misconstrued and/or have my statements be taken out of context. I'm not belligerent so long as one doesn't annoy me with one's unfairness. Boo went beyond mere unfairness, often taking what I offered to him for consideration in good faith as a weapon to somehow make a jab at me in another context. I wasn't really expecting that, and therefore I consider that to be a betrayal of my trust.
Part of the reason he seems to have done this is because he believed that I was in it for a debate -- which I wasn't; I dove in to offer a perspective in a friendly, unstructured conversation without much forethought. I was more concerned about playing with ideas, while he seemed to be concerned about rhetoric / persuasiveness. So it's almost like he was trying to win a game that nobody else is playing. As ridiculous and hilarious as that sounds, I don't appreciate that. At any other place and any other time, I would have mocked him and made an example out of him for this, no matter how good at heart he may seem to be.
But I don't want to do it here. Because when I came back to the Compendium, I told myself I won't be having any more debates or being involved in further toxicity -- especially if that debate and toxicity has something to do with politics and religion. After all, it was this toxicity that, partly, killed the community here. That, and Boo has been trying really hard revive the community, so I can't allow myself to contribute to the problem by digging the community even deeper in its grave.
If you want to debate, if you want to fight, I'm happy to do it elsewhere if I can find the time to do so. Just not here. Anywhere but here.
Other than that, eh, I forgive his transgression. He obviously didn't mean harm by it. I'll still be pretty wary of him though.
For whatever it's worth, I'm going to try and put my negative feelings about you in the past and move forward in this Bold New Compendium Era with goodwill toward all.
Like I said, I don't really care. Bygones are bygones. Sure, I may still be suspicious of you (and might be susceptible to be annoyed by you, which you haven't done so far recently except for a bit in your current response towards me which I can't be arsed to address right now), but I'm not the sort of person who holds grudges or resentments unless there's a problem that still isn't fixed, at which point I will hunt it down like a bloodhound.
So if you want to talk to me, that's fine, you can talk to me. I talk to practically anybody, regardless of what they believe or don't believe -- whether it's Nazis, Marxists, Scientologists, Buddhists, Jains, etc. -- so long as they are reasonable in their communication. I neither have the time, nor energy nor motivation to tell people what they should believe; all I can do is offer a perspective for them to chew on, and if they don't want it, that's fine by me. You want to buy my stuff and still believe that Sindhis like me should be sent to Concentration Camps like the Jews? That's fine, help yourself to it -- I make art for everybody.
Social tact doesn't matter to me either, you can swear your ass to the moon and be as politically incorrect as you want, as far as I care. But no matter who you are, there are still ways you can get on my bad side, which -- ideally -- is where you don't want to be. If you don't want to be there, let me know, and I'll tell you how you can avoid it.
Speaking of which, if you have the money and ever wanted an artist to collaborate with, hit me up. I'm reasonable with my costs (or at the very least, somebody you can negotiate with). Yeah, I don't give a shit if you hate Trump while I don't, I'll still work with you if you like so long as your project is benign and isn't too political / propaganda (I have my ethos too, after all).
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I think I had some awareness, in those days, of how much I upset you. There's a lot you didn't understand, but which you thought you understood very well, and you were very much (as you put it) a shitlord about it. That annoyed me to no end, when in fact all I was really seeing about you was that you were young and headstrong, and trying to prove yourself and gain acceptance, and then rebelling when you were met with criticism instead.
I let my frustration with you become a choice to decline to deescalate the tension between us, which I could otherwise easily have done. I'm not actually sure I made the wrong decision, then--and in our arguments, I do not think I was in the wrong--but I will say that making others upset is never my desire and never makes me happy. I wouldn't apologize for my ideals, but, for upsetting you personally, I apologize. Not that you care, libertarian that you are, but honesty is important to me and I feel I should say it now, since I didn't say it in times of old. I could have behaved better. I too was caught up in the long voyage of growing up. I am glad other Compendiumites gave you a reason to stay.
I won't give you any trouble in the here and now. In fact I've deliberately avoided engaging with you until now, and, going forward, I will probably keep a low profile around you. It is for the best. But I'm sure I will chime in from time to time.
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Oi, I did tell you I come from a vastly different culture with little understanding about the world, of course it would take a me a long time to comprehend all the new stuff I was gathering, and I was already doing the best that I could. The information that was already flowing around in the Compendium was too much to simply "get it" instantaneously -- I needed to understand the foundations before I could make sense of the rest. And besides, I was only beginning in my journey as an artist, so I was also slowly learning how to take criticism properly. I just did not appreciate the way you made those criticisms -- like I did not appreciate Boo's unsolicited jabs at me in this thread.
In short, how can you or anybody expect me to understand the full breadth of your own comprehension while simultaneously trying to piss me off? Right now, I'm a bit more articulate than I was back then to suggest that you were unwise in the fact that you were setting yourself up for failure from the very beginning. And that's important, because I did not want to hold that anger against you, which is provable by the fact that I -- at times -- even messaged you in good faith, if you remember.
Doesn't mean I didn't understand you. For example: Yeah, back then I may have been very anti-capitalist (probably because of the historic Socialist influences of my country on me, not knowing it was ultimately Socialism that held economically backwards), I actually completely understood and agreed with you on the Capitalism and Ice-Cream analogy. In fact, I agreed with you till such a degree that I was willing to change my mind (which may also have been an important influence, considering I'm already pro-capitalism right now). After all, I care more about good information than a stranger on the internet.
The only reason I still antagonized you was because I was pushed to the point of resentment towards you, and let's just say I have a way of getting under people's skins (which is why I mentioned you don't want to be on my bad side XD).
Man, I don't seek apologies for somebody being who they are or holding the beliefs and ideals they do, I'm no judge and jury to decide that. The only apology that matters is for behavior. And you apologized. I very much appreciate that. Thank you. And I want you to know that I don't think you're some bad person or something (at least as far as I know you anywho).
So yeah. Chill. It's alright. Friends?
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We cool. =]
And yeah, it occurred to me, years ago (after I had left the Compendium), that you had a much longer bridge to cross in terms of cultural familiarity and comfort. I spend a lot of time thinking about those kinds of things from a political standpoint, but I don't think I understood, in those days, the simple nuance of "this makes interaction harder."
I never deliberately tried to piss you off, for what it's worth. I was very intolerant of what I perceived (rightly or wrongly) as "tushantin's bullshit," but I hope you understand that those are two different motivations. Many people, in seeking to avoid confrontation because it is "unpleasant" or "unseemly," elevate their desire for passivity over the other principles whose defense they therefore decline to contribute to. Many people have told me over the years that they have "strong" views on this or that, but choose to keep it to themselves, for want of attracting trouble and bother, even when they would have faced no true risks or consequences in terms of safety or livelihood. I do understand the desire to avoid confrontation--I don't like confrontation either--but, in the end, I can't choose that for myself. To me, it's too close to being a fair-weather citizen. Conviction, and principle, require meaningful defense. And, so, upon seeing what I perceive (again, rightly or wrongly) as ill voices in the social sphere, I tend to be vociferous in condemning them.
Hence all my fire behind my arguments with you and others, back then--and I was less tactful then than I am now. I did not respect your conclusions, and even more so I did not respect your method of engagement, so I registered my contempt with you and everyone. I've always been willing to listen and change my mind, even if it can take me a minute, but I did not perceive the same openness in you, in those days. (I will leave it to your discretion to say whether I was mistaken! It probably doesn't matter either way.)
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Many people, in seeking to avoid confrontation because it is "unpleasant" or "unseemly," elevate their desire for passivity over the other principles whose defense they therefore decline to contribute to. Many people have told me over the years that they have "strong" views on this or that, but choose to keep it to themselves, for want of attracting trouble and bother, even when they would have faced no true risks or consequences in terms of safety or livelihood. I do understand the desire to avoid confrontation--I don't like confrontation either--but, in the end, I can't choose that for myself. To me, it's too close to being a fair-weather citizen. Conviction, and principle, require meaningful defense.
I get what you mean here, and lately (by which, I mean since the past four years now), I has occurred to me that often, for the sake agreement and social cohesion, a lot of people would happily ditch the pursuit of truth or even free-thought, just so that they don't cause confrontations with their fellow people (which may be wise to some extent), but also unwisely having to "accept" the whatever crap their group / sphere thinks -- sometimes to the point of vehemently defending thoughts or ideas that are not even their own. Essentially becoming a hollow mannequin for somebody else's cause.
This bothers me because disagreement (and not necessarily for its own sake), whether you're right or wrong about what you believe, at the very least demonstrates one's capacity to think for one's own self as well as the integrity of one's own soul. In a somewhat tolerant group, that individuality could at least be respected, but when you're in (or near) a group that does not respect individual conviction, then even the act of politely disagreeing will become a risk to you (because the group perceives that act to also be a threat to its own cohesion).
An example of this (and I'm going to try being very careful to make this example) can be seen in the political polarization recently. A decade ago (in India, at least) it wouldn't have mattered what political views you had or whom you voted for, you'd still be fellow citizens, caring for each other. These days, however, no matter whom you support, you apparently are a horrible person who deserves to die. This escalated to such a point where my brother, who isn't even interested in politics, found himself unwillingly involved in a fist-fight with a bunch cunts who couldn't even shut-up about how Trump is Literally Hitler over a chill-out-and-drink session, despite the fact that nobody else cares about Trump since he's not an Indian Politician.
Not to mention, a bunch of ideologues actively campaigning to have some of my friends fired from their jobs (and succeeding a couple of times) just because they found out that my friends held a different opinion to them, and not even because of any wrongdoing. It's gotten so bad to the point that the agency to even be who you are has become a liability, so I guess it's no wonder that -- besides those who willingly surrender their own agency to think -- even those who otherwise hail free-thought to be a virtue would rather keep their heads down because they have families to feed. (And don't even get me started about a couple of vegans once stalking me and trying to get my personal information so they could do something about me. Heck, I've got more horror stories where that came from.)
So yeah, I believe that if one is brave enough to stand for themselves it's not just one's own stance that they have to stand for, but also stand for the very idea of individual will, the capacity to think for one's own self, no matter how wrong they might be. After all, the pursuit of truth can seldom even begin unless an individual is given the agency and courage to at least take the first step towards it even if they happen to end up being wrong and thereby testing what they understand consistently; it's nigh impossible for somebody to get things right in a single leap. I find this ordeal, this adventure, to be a sacred rite of passage for anybody.
That doesn't mean group-norms are entirely wrong, however. They exist for reasons. While not being an exact example of this, I wanted to mention either way, hoping it may still explain my reasoning: While I still stand all for an individual's agency, I still won't get into any heated arguments in this forum from now on. It's not because the group / forum has forced me, but because I believe that doing so could seriously hurt the forum's growth while it's still in its revival phase. This is an individual's own decision to make specific sacrifices if they believe that it could benefit an entire group, and I'm perfectly okay with that, even if the norm doesn't have to extend towards anybody else. The only difference, in this case, is that I'm being honest about my boundaries -- which seldom happens in a group-coerced environment, where you are often forced to lie.
Hence all my fire behind my arguments with you and others, back then--and I was less tactful then than I am now. I did not respect your conclusions, and even more so I did not respect your method of engagement, so I registered my contempt with you and everyone. I've always been willing to listen and change my mind, even if it can take me a minute, but I did not perceive the same openness in you, in those days. (I will leave it to your discretion to say whether I was mistaken! It probably doesn't matter either way.)
I'll have to take your word for it, because I can't read your mind. :P
Though, even if you were willing to listen and change your mind, your standards for doing so still seemed pretty high (though, I don't think I'd entirely blame you, because funny thing, I've actually briefly been in your shoes, lol). Like I said, I may not have been the most articulate back then, but I did have the capacity to just put ideas out there for smarter minds than me to entertain and expand upon, and some of those were non-personal refutations to what you already had said (at least in the earlier days when I did not really think ill of you, and in fact respected you enough to even make those refutations for you to consider). Often times (but not all the times), however, your anger towards me wasn't because I might be wrong; rather, it seemed more like a Moral Fury, because you seemed to believe that I was justifying something morally abhorrent (which was a similar moral fury / discomfort Sajainta once showed me, oddly enough). Hence me pointing out the point about cultural differences (not that I like Moral Relativity, but understanding those differences would at least help people be on the same page before they even bother to disagree). I'd love to go into details about some of them, but I think those topics could end up being far too emotionally charged to reasonably discuss, and would (in the worst circumstances) force me to go against my code I planned to stick to in this forum.
So instead I'll give you this example which, to some degree (but not entirely) resembles what I'm talking about:
When you linked to an article stating that scientists were now certain that the universe was expanding, and I asked you how would they know for sure. Instead of explaining it to me like I'm 5, you instead snapped at me about my arrogance, telling me that I knew nothing about astrophysics and that I ought to go and learn more. You were right that I did not know anything about astrophysics (after all, I did state before that I've never been to college -- heck, even to this day, I've never studied in college), but what you misunderstood back then was that my question wasn't actually rhetorical, but a genuine curiosity, hoping somebody would explain to me what the article couldn't go into detail with, like a lot of other folks usually do. This seemed to have bothered you because you found science to be a sacred subject (what with sharing videos about Neil deGrasse Tyson), and you seemed to believe my question was a dismissal to all the hard-work and intelligence that went into the conclusion that was recorded in the paper, and inevitably in the article. Hence your knee-jerk reaction, rather than trying to understand if I had a reason to ask such a thing (remember: free-thought and all; and, since then, I have gone around to study a whole lot on the subject, including sufficiently about the scientific method, as well as the philosophy of science, to understand that expansion of the universe -- and I still, to this day, stand by my question, even though I already know the answer, because I don't believe I did anything wrong by asking that question).
While, currently, I can somewhat understand your reaction, including perhaps your lack of patience for wanting to explain to a n00b like me (or maybe you just did not have time because you got shit to do IRL), back then all my simpler mind could see was that you were being douche. XD And because you kept doing similar shit, I wanted to pay you back by infuriating you just as you infuriated me. That was probably the very first time I actually started doing that sort of shit, and over time (that is, years after Compendium) I learned that if people have a reactive moral sensibility then one can easily play with it for personal amusement. Interestingly enough, these days I've gotten so better at doing that I can apparently trigger people by just saying Hello. Hahahahahaha! Life is great.
Okay, just so I make myself clear, in case you misunderstand me: I'm not asking for apology or any of that shit for this, nah, that's not the reason I pointed this out. That's not my intention.
I just wanted to point out two things by providing that example: 1) You seemed to want to know if you were mistaken, so I thought I'd show you that at times your actions did not reflect your intention; but that's okay, nobody's perfect and I've guilty of doing this shit too, so we can all learn from these errors and grow wiser, 2) This situation is far more common than anybody believes (me personally finding myself in such a situation with multiple people I've met), and sometimes can even go down a really dark path, so it's worth being aware of it just so we can understand it better and learn how to circumvent it when it happens. I mean, condemnation is all well and good, but we gotta first understand somebody before we condemn them for it, don't we all?
After all, if we don't, then when it happens we will Nazi that coming.
Eh? Ehhh?! XD
.....
*walks himself out*
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Welp, we've reached that time again. I love this place and have tried my best to check in daily, post daily, and enjoy the reinvigorated culture to the best of my ability (even if I haven't properly used Discord like I should). It's been such a fun, rewarding experience reconnecting with all my old friends and the process of making all new ones.
All that being said...
...I'll be out of town until next Monday and won't have internet access, so I won't be available to post. :D
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Have a nice trip, see you next fall.
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You sun of a gun (https://www.chronocompendium.com/images/wiki/3/3a/Sunofsun.png)...
Have fun!
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Have a nice trip, see you next fall.
Next fall? Hoping that I won't come back for a few months, eh? :P
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No, I'm just assuming someone will lose their balance on Monday.
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No, I'm just assuming someone will lose their balance on Monday.
Oh ho ho! You punny. I lol'd at this, haha...
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Unfortunately, I am going to have to be away for about a week yet again. We had a death in the family today and I'll be traveling for the funeral and all that comes with it. I should be back this weekend.
See you all then!
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Sorry for your loss.
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Thanks. It's a sad situation and we knew it was coming.
It was actually my wife's aunt, who was actually only two years older than me. She and my wife had been close when my wife lived in the same area, almost like a big sister. She had been battling breast cancer for the past half decade or so, and it came back about a year ago and spread to other (vital) organs.
She leaves behind two boys (16 and 12) and her husband, who recently finalized the adoption of the two boys.
:(
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I'm sorry to hear that, Boo. I wish you and your family well.
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I am so, so sorry for your loss Boo. You and your family will be in my thoughts. I hope all goes as well as can be expected and drive safe!
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Dayum! That sucks... I hope you and your family is holding well.
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Back. Thanks for all the warm wishes. Just pulled back into the house about 30 minutes ago. Lots of catching up to do in terms of work, straightening up the house, etc.
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Welcome back.
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Welcome back!
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Good golly that's a sad story. Lots of suffering in the Compendium community this month. We all need to get together at the Snail Stop for a hot cider and just vent.
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I am soooo there!
Cider. And add a splash of whiskey or three. :)
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Hijacking your thread to say a goodbye myself--at least for a few days. I'm taking a road trip with my family to New Mexico, gonna see the sights and enjoy the cool mountain weather. I'm thinking the ride there will be a good time to replay Chrono Trigger!
Anyway, assuming I have service, I'll still be around. See y'all!
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Have fun, kodokami! Enjoy NM -- I've enjoyed visiting the two or three times I've been there!
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Hijacking your thread to say a goodbye myself--at least for a few days. I'm taking a road trip with my family to New Mexico, gonna see the sights and enjoy the cool mountain weather. I'm thinking the ride there will be a good time to replay Chrono Trigger!
Anyway, assuming I have service, I'll still be around. See y'all!
Have fun in NM! I've never been there, but I imagine it's beautiful. And hey, it's always a good time to replay Chrono Trigger!
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Hey all,
I'm going to be gone until next weekend due to work travels. I will be MIA until then and won't be checking in or posting. Just wanted to give a heads up.
xoxo
BTGC
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Have a safe trip! Thanks for letting us know, we will miss you!
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I have been awfully quiet the past few months and felt it was time I gave a proper explanation.
I have a new job and have moved to a new city. The job hunt was stressful and a lot of work, and the move even more. My wife and children haven't come just yet; they are finishing out the school year where they are now. Luckily, it's only a 2.5 hour drive, and obviously we'll be seeing each other every weekend (and some rare weekdays when I'll be able to work from home).
Sorry for the lack of participation and engagement on my part.
As always, I hope this place will feel like home to you.
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Busy busy. Is the new job cool?
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Busy busy. Is the new job cool?
I think so...? Hard to tell. I started on Friday. I'm still doing IT Project Management, which is good. The benefits and pay were too good to pass up, although I'm in a much larger metro now and the prices for everything are insane.
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Hey, that's great that you found something!
Sounds like a lot of traveling, so hopefully you've got some good books on tape. We'll be here when you have more time. :)
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Hey all,
Just wanted to provide a quick life update. I continue to apologize for the lack of engagement and presence on my part. I am failing as the Guru of Life!
As you may or may not already know, I had a major life change in January involving a new job, an industry change, and a move to another state. I now work in healthcare supply chain management, so as you can imagine the glorious Covid-19 has required a lot of attention from myself and my teams. Despite being a salaried employee, this has meant a lot of extra hours and weekend work. I'm perpetually exhausted and haven't had a time for idle internet fun, let alone any gaming.
The good news it that with Covid-19 in full pandemic mode, my family was able to go ahead and move ahead of schedule (my daughter's school was moved to virtual only). We are now all back together at our new house way out in the country. But we are also without internet and relying on wifi hotspot, and seeing that the phone signal is only 1 or 2 bars, even that is less than optimal and highly unreliable. I hope to be back up to speed in the next month or so and can start getting back to normal.
I miss you all and can't wait to get back here and chat and hang with ya'll!!!
I also owe MS04 a HUGE apology for dropping the ball in both testing and promoting Chrono Trigger: Master Quest. As soon as time permits, I plan on fully playing the ROM hack and promoting the hell out of it both here and on reddit. So if you see this, MS04, I'm so, so sorry!
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I also owe MS04 a HUGE apology for dropping the ball in both testing and promoting Chrono Trigger: Master Quest. As soon as time permits, I plan on fully playing the ROM hack and promoting the hell out of it both here and on reddit. So if you see this, MS04, I'm so, so sorry!
Don't worry about it, dude, I understand! There was a lot going on, and I was able to make posts promoting it on here and on Reddit anyways!
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Omg HI PEOPLE!! Lol I have been busy myself the last few months, my old call center closed down and I now have a good job working for a cellphone company. Luckily with covid, my job is essential as I work with telecommunications and I get to work from home! So yay!
My divorce was finalized on January 8th and it was definitely one of the best days of my life. The weeks leading up to it my ex started to harass me, so that was fun. About a month ago he called me and tried to accuse me of giving him an std even though I haven’t been with him in nearly a year. I got tested and of course I’m fine. He’s now blocked on everything, I tried to be nice and well, some people you can’t be nice to. I’m just very thankful that he’s out of my life.
During all of this I also started seeing someone, but he doesn’t live in Wisconsin. I was supposed to go see him again last week and of course I couldn’t because of covid. So we rescheduled my visit to July, hopefully I can travel by then!
So life has been overall pretty good. I will admit, I get lonely sometimes with it just being my cat and I, but it beats being in quarantine with my nightmare of an ex! I’m already approaching a year when I made the decision to leave Florida and I’ve come a long time in a year. I’m very proud of myself!
Now that I’m working from home, I know I NEED to make time to come here more often. Things were pretty hectic for a bit, but then, when are they not, right? Maybe I should put a sticky note on my computer. Lol
Also, congrats Boo on the job! I hope it’s going well for you!
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Welcome back, Nadia!
So glad your situation has turned out for the best, even with all this covid19 insanity. I think a hearty congrats is in order with your new job.
They just started opening up businesses here in TN, so let's hope there's not a second wave. I'm keeping away from the businesses as much as possible (although I've had to make a few stops due to the fact that we have moved and desperately needed things) and definitely of the mind that it could be a bit too early for returning to normal.
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It really did. Things were stressful for awhile because of the divorce, the ex’s behavior and my old call center closing down but it all worked out for the best. And thank you for the congrats, I got my job 2 weeks after I learned of my call center’s closing, which I found out about while I was visiting the guy I’m seeing. That was a great first visit lol.
I think it’s too soon to be reopening and I heard about Tennessee. Please stay safe!
I do know I have tons of threads to check which I’m planning on doing this week. I’m also trying to eat healthier. This quarantine has had me eating like crap but luckily I’ve been maintaining what I’ve lost so that’s good!! *knocks on wood* lol
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Hail, Compendium. Nothing really new has gone on with me. Still looking after my mother on disability. Still building up a growing backlog of games.
Picked up DB Xenoverse double-pack and DQ Heroes II from the recent PSN sale. Also got my hands on the FFVII and Trials of Mana remakes. Here's hoping Square follows suit with Chrono Trigger.
Also came up with a new headcanon for if they ever remake Trigger and Cross. *mutters* Damn you, overactive imagination... >_<
Other than that doing fine all things considered. Not huge on the idea of all the states reopening up so soon though. Every time I see it mentioned, my first thought is always; "And the Darwin Award goes to..." That's probably my outer pessimist talking though.