Chrono Compendium

News and Updates => Chrono News => Topic started by: prizvel on March 14, 2016, 12:29:07 pm

Title: Chrono Сross Modification
Post by: prizvel on March 14, 2016, 12:29:07 pm
Hello.
Me and Danetta currently developing a big modification for Chrono Cross. This mod will affect almost every aspect of the original game.
The list inludes, but not limited to:
Title: Re: Chrono cross modification
Post by: prizvel on March 15, 2016, 03:12:44 pm
family tree returned
(http://puu.sh/nHC3k/8deb9bb399.jpg)
Title: Re: Chrono cross modification
Post by: Mr Bekkler on March 15, 2016, 03:18:33 pm
What do you mean by saying "replacing Serge"? That sounds interesting but I don't understand.
Title: Re: Chrono cross modification
Post by: prizvel on March 15, 2016, 04:26:35 pm
Quote
What do you mean by saying "replacing Serge"? That sounds interesting but I don't understand.
Change Serge to another character. As Relief as a Charm,  just everywhere.
Title: Re: Chrono cross modification
Post by: Kodokami on March 15, 2016, 05:03:58 pm
I'm not sure how you're doing this, but it looks fantastic. I'm amazed.
Title: Re: Chrono cross modification
Post by: Acacia Sgt on March 15, 2016, 11:19:13 pm
Oh, a CC modification project? I'll be keeping an eye on it.
Title: Re: Chrono cross modification
Post by: Mr Bekkler on March 16, 2016, 05:16:54 pm
Quote
What do you mean by saying "replacing Serge"? That sounds interesting but I don't understand.
Change Serge to another character. As Relief as a Charm,  just everywhere.
Cool, so you're not stuck with Serge, you can make your own party. I like it!
Title: Re: Chrono cross modification
Post by: prizvel on March 17, 2016, 01:49:33 pm
What do you think: whether to add the quest to return Harle? Or give the choice: save Kid or return Harle? But return Harle would be contrary to the story.
Title: Re: Chrono cross modification
Post by: TheMage on March 18, 2016, 06:27:22 am
I like the idea of having the option to get Harle back. I was always sad when we lose her, she's one of the more mysterious characters.

Having a quest to get her back sounds fun and adds to the game, I also like the idea of having to choose between saving kid or keeping Harle. DUN DUN DUN
Title: Re: Chrono cross modification
Post by: Rookie_One on March 19, 2016, 07:26:52 am
Just registered for this, and looking forward to it. I hope it will permit to recruit glenn no matter the choice you make for Kid when she is poisoned  :D
Title: Re: Chrono cross modification
Post by: prizvel on March 20, 2016, 04:00:45 am
Quote
Just registered for this, and looking forward to it. I hope it will permit to recruit glenn no matter the choice you make for Kid when she is poisoned
I thought to make possible to get all characters in a single playthrough, but it would be contrary to the system of choice in the game, so these changes are not planned.
Title: Re: Chrono cross modification
Post by: Danetta on March 20, 2016, 07:26:19 am
I have already wrote about this mod there, but no one noticed untill now.
Title: Re: Chrono Сross Modification
Post by: ZeaLitY on March 21, 2016, 01:51:47 am
Yeah, we are finally breathing some life back into the Compendium. Welcome over here, Danetta and prizvel.

I'm still moving all the encyclopedia from Triple-Tech to https://www.chronocompendium.com/wiki/index.php/Modification (Radical Dreamers and Chrono Cross are done).

I'm going to move each forum thread next (it will be a little ugly). To emphasize hacking, the Kajar Laboratories board will be split up into three boards like at Triple-Tech (CT, CC, and RD). It will take a long time, but I will manually go through Kajar Labs and categorize posts to the proper forum by game.
Title: Re: Chrono Сross Modification
Post by: Schala Zeal on March 21, 2016, 06:13:12 am
Kid/me with cerulean hair, much? Hope that makes it in.
Title: Re: Chrono Сross Modification
Post by: Danetta on March 21, 2016, 06:26:47 am
ZeaLitY, huh, I think it's a good way, we really should not split-up community after so many years. What about future of triple-tech? Will it stay or not?

Quote
To emphasize hacking, the Kajar Laboratories board will be split up into three boards like at Triple-Tech.
It's great idea too, otherwise my Cross modifications will be overwhelmed by Trigger-guys. :D
Will be a good place to post and discuss, but I don't think there will be a lot of modmakers or researchers.
Title: Re: Chrono Сross Modification
Post by: Danetta on March 21, 2016, 06:54:15 am
Those who interested in our modification, should definitely read all these old discussions from gamefaq. There is a lot about Cross design and balance aspects.
http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/196917-chrono-cross/69589606 (http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/196917-chrono-cross/69589606)
http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/196917-chrono-cross/72669408 (http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/196917-chrono-cross/72669408)
Title: Re: Chrono Сross Modification
Post by: ZeaLitY on March 21, 2016, 10:19:22 am
I'm not sure what will become of Triple-Tech. I thought maybe they could host finished hacks, but ROMhacking.net already does this well enough. The old encyclopedia will be archived there, of course.

Maybe it could be a hacking group page, but like you said, there's not so much activity...
Title: Re: Chrono Сross Modification
Post by: prizvel on March 21, 2016, 12:20:21 pm
Quote
Kid/me with cerulean hair, much? Hope that makes it in.
Repaint the hair is not difficult, but there are two problems: at levels where Kid npc, the texture should be edited separately, edit each take a time. The second problem - the video. I like the idea of changing Shala hair color in time devourer battle model.
I draw badly, it turned out something like this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wv1OT5HmOEU
If someone draws a nice texture Kid, I can make a separate patch.
Title: Re: Chrono Сross Modification
Post by: Danetta on March 21, 2016, 12:30:21 pm
Would be bad design even with perfect drawing.
Title: Re: Chrono Сross Modification
Post by: Mr Bekkler on March 21, 2016, 12:39:52 pm
I can help out with some texture repainting. I'm good with art but totally new to Chrono Cross hacking. How can I export character textures in an editable format? What tools are needed? I've been trying to find this out anyway. If you can help me get the files, I'll help you change what you want changed.
Title: Re: Chrono Сross Modification
Post by: Danetta on March 21, 2016, 01:17:31 pm
I don't think if we will include re-haired kid in our mod, probably it may be only another small modification.

What about our mod - we redrawed only two portraits at the moment (both Dark Serges).
However, I think Marcy portraits should be changed too because of her nose.

I personally think original Dark Serges both has terrible portraits (left), especially the second one, he is like a bird, but new ones at least better (right).
Title: Re: Chrono Сross Modification
Post by: prizvel on March 21, 2016, 01:34:31 pm
Quote
I can help out with some texture repainting. I'm good with art but totally new to Chrono Cross hacking. How can I export character textures in an editable format? What tools are needed? I've been trying to find this out anyway. If you can help me get the files, I'll help you change what you want changed.

You can find all the information on triple-tech or right here on compendium https://www.chronocompendium.com/Term/Modification.html
Most textures in the Tim format. Tim2view (http://www.romhacking.net/utilities/799/) can do all the job with these files. Kid texture that I got is attached below.
(http://puu.sh/nOFAl/f0de1d390b.bmp) (http://puu.sh/nOFC9/740c0f7cca.bmp)

(http://puu.sh/nOFDd/99e19ac870.bmp)
Title: Re: Chrono Сross Modification
Post by: Mr Bekkler on March 23, 2016, 04:49:59 pm
Awesome I'll take a look. I didn't know all that info was on the Compendium after the CnD.
Title: Re: Chrono Сross Modification
Post by: Schala Zeal on March 24, 2016, 12:03:40 pm
Chrono Mania already modded the hair actually. Pretty sure all you have to do is ask.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wv1OT5HmOEU
Title: Re: Chrono Сross Modification
Post by: prizvel on March 24, 2016, 12:55:23 pm
Quote
Chrono Mania already modded the hair actually. Pretty sure all you have to do is ask.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wv1OT5HmOEU

This is my video :) I did it after your previous post
Title: Re: Chrono Сross Modification
Post by: Schala Zeal on March 24, 2016, 06:05:17 pm
Ah, okay n_n
Title: Re: Chrono Сross Modification
Post by: EgyLynx on March 25, 2016, 12:47:52 pm
So much changed at Beta...
Title: Re: Chrono Сross Modification
Post by: Danetta on March 26, 2016, 09:39:00 pm
What do you mean?
Title: Re: Chrono Сross Modification
Post by: froodo on March 27, 2016, 08:29:57 am
I know it would be a dumb request, but, imagine for one instant... Crono, Marle and Lucca as Easter Eggs. Don't know how history would change.

Anyway, there isnt any "empty" slots for additional characters in CC final like in beta?

(http://orig06.deviantart.net/caaa/f/2011/224/a/9/chrono_cross__marle_status_by_rjenyawd-d469qxl.jpg)
Title: Re: Chrono Сross Modification
Post by: EgyLynx on March 27, 2016, 12:48:37 pm
 :oops:
sorry i mean CHANGED so much at when look these thinks...
Title: Re: Chrono Сross Modification
Post by: prizvel on March 28, 2016, 02:48:56 pm
Patch changes the hair color for Kid. Let's call it the alpha version, because there are still bugs, such as blinking eyes and a not very beautiful hair color. Far only for CD1
http://puu.sh/nX89J/831f0d0317.rar (http://puu.sh/nX89J/831f0d0317.rar)

(http://puu.sh/nX8t7/77cdb97c42.bmp)(http://puu.sh/nX8r4/915d43875f.bmp)
Title: Re: Chrono Сross Modification
Post by: Schala Zeal on March 28, 2016, 07:26:10 pm
Priz, I could hug you! <3
Title: Re: Chrono Сross Modification
Post by: prizvel on March 28, 2016, 08:22:53 pm
:) 
Schala, Too early, a patch is not complete, I still work on it
Title: Re: Chrono Сross Modification
Post by: prizvel on March 30, 2016, 06:49:15 pm
The patch, which replaces Wraith in the shadow forest, at Wraith with Ghetz's Shirt (https://www.chronocompendium.com/Term/Ghetz%27s_Shirt.html)

Download link: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B-s2yCRyI_5Ib0NONVYzZmk3YlE
Title: Re: Chrono cross modification
Post by: Rookie_One on April 06, 2016, 05:01:02 pm
Quote
Just registered for this, and looking forward to it. I hope it will permit to recruit glenn no matter the choice you make for Kid when she is poisoned
I thought to make possible to get all characters in a single playthrough, but it would be contrary to the system of choice in the game, so these changes are not planned.

Here to me being late answering you

It's a bit of a shame, I would had liked an exception specifically for Glenn(maybe later in game, like after serge exchange body with linx) if you choose to save kid, since he does add  a lot to the story
Title: Re: Chrono Сross Modification
Post by: prizvel on April 10, 2016, 08:11:58 pm
Quote
Here to me being late answering you

It's a bit of a shame, I would had liked an exception specifically for Glenn(maybe later in game, like after serge exchange body with linx) if you choose to save kid, since he does add  a lot to the story

I really thought about it. However, for another reason: Glenn has personal dialog during the battle with Garay. But Glenn can not be in the party at this moment, because he died in Home World in Dead Sea.

Dialog:
Glenn:Father...!?But why...?
Radius:Glenn...This must have beenhard on you...Forgive me.Glenn:......
Title: Re: Chrono Сross Modification
Post by: Acacia Sgt on April 11, 2016, 12:20:55 am
Oh really? Had no idea of that. Interesting.

I'd agree that it is a bit of a shame that about Glenn. Though thinking about it, I can see a few ways that could work. Then again, I don't really know much about editing the game, so no idea if those ideas can even be done.
Title: Re: Chrono Сross Modification
Post by: Danetta on April 11, 2016, 11:51:33 am
Oh really? Had no idea of that. Interesting.

I'd agree that it is a bit of a shame that about Glenn. Though thinking about it, I can see a few ways that could work. Then again, I don't really know much about editing the game, so no idea if those ideas can even be done.
Well, our capabilities are actualy almost endless, so feel free to share your thoughts.
I have a critical attitude to all aspects of the mod-making, but any idea will be heard.
Title: Re: Chrono Сross Modification
Post by: Acacia Sgt on April 11, 2016, 09:26:27 pm
Hmm... well, let's see...

Well, I saw above the comment about balance, since Glenn is a route dependant character.

I was thinking that perhaps he could become a non route dependant character, either by putting another character in that spot, or also make one of the Save Kid route characters also obtainable regardless of choice. If I remember right, the reason he doesn't join in the Save Kid path is that Serge and company head straight for HW, so he doesn't find someone to lend him a boat to head to Fort Dragonia. And he apparently gives up asking once they do return to AW or something like that.

I would think he can just keep asking for a boat and thus easily becomes a way for him to get recruited after returning from HW. It's not like say, Korcha getting mad at Serge for abandoning Kid, or spending too much time away from HW that Razzly gets eaten (because of this, if a Save Kid character can become non route dependant, my vote would be for Mel). His reason for being route dependant can be applied for both routes without changing much of it.

But well, that is only if he were to be a recruit in both routes.

I could go on, but for now I would like to see what's the opinion of the above first.
Title: Re: Chrono Сross Modification
Post by: Rookie_One on April 12, 2016, 08:24:34 am
I Like Acacia Sgt idea.

Myself I think that Glenn should become a character that is not route-dependent.

For the lines, I would not be surprised if in fact, originally, when serge was thrown in the temporal vortex, that the third party member would be thrown in it too, explaining the lines he was supposed to have during the encounter with Garai

Ah yeah, one thing I seen in the wiki was that Lynx has unused portrait that was supposed to be used when Serge was in the body, showing the face with a kinder expression....don't know if it could be implemented though
Title: Re: Chrono Сross Modification
Post by: Acacia Sgt on April 12, 2016, 04:22:19 pm
I Like Acacia Sgt idea.

Myself I think that Glenn should become a character that is not route-dependent.

For the lines, I would not be surprised if in fact, originally, when serge was thrown in the temporal vortex, that the third party member would be thrown in it too, explaining the lines he was supposed to have during the encounter with Garai

Ah yeah, one thing I seen in the wiki was that Lynx has unused portrait that was supposed to be used when Serge was in the body, showing the face with a kinder expression....don't know if it could be implemented though

Speaking of unused text, the script also has dialogue for Luccia during the Viper Manor sequence when rescuing Riddel (specifically, when meeting Grobyc for the first time). And that one is much longer.

Although, I wouldn't know if there originally was the idea of having the party member(s) with Serge at the time of the body swap to also be sent to the Dimensional Vortex with him. Other than that Glenn text, there doesn't seem to be any sort of unused dialogue to suggest that. So the idea was either scrapped before introducing the text to the data, or it wasn't planned like that in the first place. Maybe.

Speaking of, I think it wouldn't be a bad idea, to have whatever party members with Serge at Fort Dragonia to be banished to the Dimensional Vortex as well. At least, to me it makes sense. Lynx banishes Serge, takes Kid with him, leaves General Viper for dead... and then he kinda just ignores the other PC('s) after knocking them down. If the intent was to leave no witnesses behind, he did kind of butchered it there.

To me the idea has potential. The Glenn dialogue could be used (and also the Luccia one). And it wouldn't be that much of a change since at most it's just two PC's from the pre-FortDragonia group in each playthrough (and just one PC if Kid was in the party).
Title: Re: Chrono Сross Modification
Post by: Lord Master Grey on April 13, 2016, 12:18:02 am
I can't believe I just found out about this O_O This is amazing!

Do y'all have any plans on Orlha? Specifically, recruiting her earlier (considering she's one of the absolute last characters to join the party).

The only problem I could see would be bringing her to Home Guldove, for obvious reasons.

Title: Re: Chrono Сross Modification
Post by: prizvel on April 13, 2016, 06:44:49 am
Originally we planned as follows:
Party members who joined before the fort draginia may re-join to Lynx, if you talk to them. Orlha will be joining soon after the battle with her in the Guldove. But if the Glenn and Razzle will be available together, the option "do not save Kid" would not make sense.




Title: Re: Chrono Сross Modification
Post by: Rookie_One on April 13, 2016, 04:46:06 pm
True enough, although I would still had preferred to have a way to get him.

For those that were with you at Fort Dragonia (except Kid), are you planning for them to get thrown in the vortex with Serge ?

And finally, are you planning to make it so that after the bodyswap, the portrait when serge "speak"(when you have to make a choice) is this instead of default lynx portrait :
(https://chronocompendium.com/images/wiki/3/3d/Lynx_portrait2.png)

Anyway, the most importants things are the fixes, especially concerning the attacks value for the strongest attacks of Razzly and Noah (straight from the compendium encyclopedia :
Quote
Most Cross characters have hit values for heavy attacks of 20, unless they target all enemies (at which point they're only 10). Square apparently made a mistake with Zoah and Razzly; Zoah's is only 10, while Razzly's is 20.

And the glitches with Pip(seriously, the grid and the stats are annoying.... :x )
Title: Re: Chrono Сross Modification
Post by: prizvel on April 13, 2016, 06:33:51 pm
Quote
For those that were with you at Fort Dragonia (except Kid), are you planning for them to get thrown in the vortex with Serge ?
I'm not sure yet how it will be combined with the storyline. But actually we think about it.
Quote
And finally, are you planning to make it so that after the bodyswap, the portrait when serge "speak"(when you have to make a choice) is this instead of default lynx portrait :
What choice can't do, because the portrait settings are stored in each level separately. 
Quote
And the glitches with Pip(seriously, the grid and the stats are annoying.... :x )
The bug is in an executable file. Until now we did not know how to fix it :(
Title: Re: Chrono Сross Modification
Post by: Acacia Sgt on April 13, 2016, 09:14:02 pm
Quote
For those that were with you at Fort Dragonia (except Kid), are you planning for them to get thrown in the vortex with Serge ?
I'm not sure yet how it will be combined with the storyline. But actually we think about it.

Well, Lynx could adopt a "leave no witnesses behind" mentality and banish them alongside Serge.
Title: Re: Chrono Сross Modification
Post by: Rookie_One on April 14, 2016, 12:46:03 pm
Quote
And finally, are you planning to make it so that after the bodyswap, the portrait when serge "speak"(when you have to make a choice) is this instead of default lynx portrait :
What choice can't do, because the portrait settings are stored in each level separately. 

What do you mean by "What choice can't do" ?  :?

Anyway, I'll replay the game later and show you what I mean by switching the portrait when you are lynx in-game (it's especially something that would be important I think, at least as a bugfix, as the second portrait, that is in the game file but not used, show a more compassionate face, and many characters mention that Lynx don't act or look his usual way, since it's serge in Lynx Body).
Title: Re: Chrono Сross Modification
Post by: prizvel on April 14, 2016, 01:43:14 pm
Quote
What do you mean by "What choice can't do" ?  :?
My English is bad  :oops:
I mean impossible to give the player a choice portrait. Just replace it easy, but I'm not sure that this portrait better
Title: Re: Chrono Сross Modification
Post by: Rookie_One on April 14, 2016, 05:47:34 pm
Sorry, I meant replacing it for when serge is in lynx body.

From what we know, they intended to use this portrait for serge when he is in lynx body, as a way to show how different he is from lynx. Note that I don't know if Lynx NPC and Lynx PC are treated differently in-game or are treated as the same character (after the dragonia fort fight, serge still use a swallow while in Lynx body, so I suspect that they are treated as differents characters, but i'm really not sure about it since I never did plunge in the game files)

AFAIK, portrait are only used for serge/lynx when you have to make a dialogue choice since he is a silent protaganist, but that would be a nice way to show the change between serge and lynx (and actually, that portrait was in the game files, just not implemented, either by accident or other)
Title: Re: Chrono Сross Modification
Post by: Kodokami on April 16, 2016, 08:52:30 pm
Is it possible to change the music that plays in game? Not necessarily add new music, but, for instance, have a different song play during some battles?
Title: Re: Chrono Сross Modification
Post by: Danetta on April 17, 2016, 01:44:35 pm
Is it possible to change the music that plays in game? Not necessarily add new music, but, for instance, have a different song play during some battles?
Yes and it's already being implemented.
Title: Re: Chrono Сross Modification
Post by: Kodokami on April 18, 2016, 10:33:43 am
Awesome. I can't wait to see more of the changes you'll make.
Title: Re: Chrono Сross Modification
Post by: Danetta on April 18, 2016, 03:52:47 pm
Well, I haven't yet started a big discussions here, only tried a bit on gamefaq.

Let's go on.
We currently have some problems with ideas.
Chrono Cross has just an amazing quantity of bosses and enemies, so creating a challenging, interesting, unique logic (with replayability) for everyone with avoidance of using linear patterns is an issue.

Another thing is elements, they are just almost the same, only animations and numbers are actually different. One way to change it is shifting power of elements from raw stats to status effects which are almost unused in original game. That is, originally none of enemies can't provide an "Asleep" status effect, with exception of Hi-Ho Tank' "Element Shot".

Share your thoughts about it.

P.S. Resistance and immunities to effects will be partially removed from bosses.
So, boss instead of having total immune to some statuses will try to avoid them or purify himself from negative effects, etc.
Title: Re: Chrono Сross Modification
Post by: Rookie_One on April 21, 2016, 10:06:33 am
Nice, really looking toward these gameplay changes  :D
Title: Re: Chrono Сross Modification
Post by: prizvel on April 23, 2016, 03:59:03 pm
I added to debug room easter egg from Chono Trigger  :D Debug room is almost ready, will soon I post a separate mod.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_BwZaHZwd64
Title: Re: Chrono Сross Modification
Post by: Rencarnate on April 25, 2016, 11:14:54 am
Pretty good work guys, i would like to see new content in the game!
Title: Re: Chrono Сross Modification
Post by: rayman9930 on May 01, 2016, 01:31:02 pm
I saw this series of posts, so I decided I had to register and post something.

I got an idea and a question. The idea is about music remixes. Is it possible to stick some music that has the same arrangements, but some "fuller" (like orchestrated remixes) tracks into the game replacing the original, but awesome music? Are you guys also going to put some music into the Time Devourer boss?

This 2nd part is the question. I know guys are trying put the modded game into a (possible) one disc format. I own a PSP-3000. I would like to put this modded game along side the official version I bought off of PSN. Before I bought it, I tried for about a couple months to get it to work on my hacked PSP.

You see the game always freezes after the first boss is defeated after obtaining the Komodo Scales. No matter what I tried, it would always freeze. I have quite a bit of knowledge on PSP Homebrew (not coding anything), so I know of Popsloader. My question is if this mod came to completion, would that freeze up still occur? (Or) have you, or anyone else, ever come across that freeze-up? Thanks for what you guys are doing.
Title: Re: Chrono Сross Modification
Post by: DarioEMeloD on May 01, 2016, 06:01:29 pm
I want to know too if the music is changeable or replaceable, and what limitations there are.
Title: Re: Chrono Сross Modification
Post by: Danetta on May 01, 2016, 11:37:33 pm
I got an idea and a question. The idea is about music remixes. Is it possible to stick some music that has the same arrangements, but some "fuller" (like orchestrated remixes) tracks into the game replacing the original, but awesome music? Are you guys also going to put some music into the Time Devourer boss?
Well, Square used it's own music format which is not fully understanded yet.
That is, we can't convert something else to this format, but it's possible to use compositions from some other Square games. However, I don't think they will fit well in Cross theme.

About battle music: I think we hear regular battle music to often and it's worth to change it to something else, even to regular music of location where battle begins. Not for every battle, but for some of them atleast.

What about Time Devourer music — I don't know yet. Should we? Maybe total silence is not a best design choice, but what else could be there? We may discuss every aspect of the game right here, I want to listen every opinion.


This 2nd part is the question. I know guys are trying put the modded game into a (possible) one disc format. I own a PSP-3000. I would like to put this modded game along side the official version I bought off of PSN. Before I bought it, I tried for about a couple months to get it to work on my hacked PSP.

You see the game always freezes after the first boss is defeated after obtaining the Komodo Scales. No matter what I tried, it would always freeze. I have quite a bit of knowledge on PSP Homebrew (not coding anything), so I know of Popsloader. My question is if this mod came to completion, would that freeze up still occur? (Or) have you, or anyone else, ever come across that freeze-up? Thanks for what you guys are doing.

Well. Single-Disk is not a "get at any price" type of choice. The only real negative side of this is PS1 which can't handle 700+ MB image. However, 99% of potential players will still use PC/Android/PSP or any other noname device (like, PSX emulators is available everywhere).

I really don't know about your specific problem. I heard some people experienced disk change issues, which are gone with single-disk, but even on two disks there were workarounds.
Some people definetely played on PSP without troubles, but I haven't this device, so I can't do something for it, can't replicate a problem, can't solve it. Almost nothing changed in real CD and internal systems architecture, so I guess bug will remain even with our modified version of game.

The other workaround is using a savefile right after problematic place if it's only one.
Title: Re: Chrono Сross Modification
Post by: DarioEMeloD on May 04, 2016, 01:13:12 pm
What about Time Devourer music — I don't know yet. Should we? Maybe total silence is not a best design choice, but what else could be there? We may discuss every aspect of the game right here, I want to listen every opinion.
I think it's best to leave it as it is, that was the intended way, I assume because of the DBT itself. Silence is perfect for desolated atmospheres and emotional scenes if you know where and when to do it, and I think they nailed it. Besides, there's the Chrono Cross thing, it wouldn't make sense if there's music already.
Title: Re: Chrono Сross Modification
Post by: HedonChest on May 31, 2016, 09:49:36 am
I have a request (sorry!) that would convince me to play CC again:

Ozzi, Flea, Slash as permanently recruitable characters. Balanced based off of other characters (slash could use Fargo as a base) but then maybe tweaked to a higher tier and keeping their unique techs. Would. Also be nice if they could have double and triple techs when used together but idk.

I realize this would be a bit unfair to ol' spriggan but... I don't care. Having to work her up to doppelgänge every round just to use the semblance of one of them as a character just isn't worth it.
Title: Re: Chrono Сross Modification
Post by: Corpse69 on June 11, 2016, 04:03:00 am
great to see some mods going once again
Title: Re: Chrono Сross Modification
Post by: prizvel on June 13, 2016, 05:50:39 pm
Funny time https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xVSfcMSn6cA  :D

I have a request (sorry!) that would convince me to play CC again:

Ozzi, Flea, Slash as permanently recruitable characters. Balanced based off of other characters (slash could use Fargo as a base) but then maybe tweaked to a higher tier and keeping their unique techs. Would. Also be nice if they could have double and triple techs when used together but idk.

I realize this would be a bit unfair to ol' spriggan but... I don't care. Having to work her up to doppelgänge every round just to use the semblance of one of them as a character just isn't worth it.

interesting idea.

Title: Re: Chrono Сross Modification
Post by: TheMage on July 11, 2016, 09:34:24 pm
Lucca!!!!

I'm curious, is there a complete- (geeze I don't know how to word this for this game era) A complete model set for Lucca in the cross engine (like battling graphics etc) or just running/walking graphics?
Title: Re: Chrono Сross Modification
Post by: Danetta on July 14, 2016, 01:41:03 am
Ozzi, Flea, Slash as permanently recruitable characters.
Well, there are.. limitations.

just running/walking graphics?
This. Battle model/animations doesn't exist.
Title: Re: Chrono Сross Modification
Post by: metastase on July 16, 2016, 06:00:09 am
Good to see this project is still going! I'm the same Metastase that proposed that Recharge System on the 2nd GFAQs discussion linked here.

Answering Danetta's post, #52, page 4:

I think you're on the right track if you're planning to use %-based mechanics (such as status effects) to provide replayability. The alternative being VERY clever enemy patterns, which are much harder to create. That said, maybe this is too ambitious and you should reconsider the scope of this enhanced replayability, 1 alternative being: Create 2 different difficulty patches, 1 for a clean playthrough and the other assuming max lvl characters.

Otherwise your attempt to improve replay value will invariably have to face the "gambling" issue I've mentioned on that GFAQs discussion.

Also on that GFAQs discussion I've mentioned a clean approach to determine each Boss "theme" in order to maximize CC's battle engine functionality and how to choose plot points for specific Element distribution. The short version: Sum the total number of unique/strategic/interesting Elements, then divide them by the number of Bosses. Enforce those Element drops needed accordingly before the next boss.

I still think replacing 1 useless Element of each colour for multiple versions of Recharge is a superior (not to mention more doable) solution when it comes to re-designing CC's battle system.

Just imagine trying to balance the system bias on the usefulness of certain character Innates (by map/boss) based on how useful a certain added status effect became on any given new Attack Element spell (such as "Asleep"). This adds such an unnecessary clutter/obfuscation to what is otherwise a very clean Innate system that I'm not sure it's actually worth it.

IE: If a Boss wastes his turn to Purify himself, now you have to design him to account for even more punishment from 3 attackers and what about those players that didn't discover the Boss status vulnerability? See what I mean by unnecessary complication?

Not to say this isn't interesting - it certainly is - but this is a very close line to development hell, the likes of which don't tend to survive until project completion.

Ultimately, I think it all depends on what you guys are currently capable of doing with enemy pattern modding on CC. If you can list the AI behaviors/limitations currently available to you I'm sure people can provide much more useful and precise feedback. Maybe that will spark new (but doable) ideas too, right?
Title: Re: Chrono Сross Modification
Post by: Danetta on July 18, 2016, 03:54:19 pm
Quote
Good to see this project is still going! I'm the same Metastase that proposed that Recharge System on the 2nd GFAQs discussion linked here.
Herro again, Metastase. I am glad to see you, you are the rare one, who actually paricipates with ideas.
Let's go part by part.

Quote
I think you're on the right track if you're planning to use %-based mechanics (such as status effects) to provide replayability. The alternative being VERY clever enemy patterns, which are much harder to create. That said, maybe this is too ambitious and you should reconsider the scope of this enhanced replayability, 1 alternative being: Create 2 different difficulty patches, 1 for a clean playthrough and the other assuming max lvl characters.
Well. At first, I don't really look at status-effects as at %-based mechanics. Only chance of applying is %-based, however, in the original game it provides more harm than good. Status-effects are often left unnoticed in the original game, even when they are applied. But with chance to NOT be applied they become even more unnoticed. I think, we should do quite the opposite — make them clear and distinct.
Also, status-effects are binded to corresponding colors and not all the enemies will have access to all colors in addition to their innate one (I mean, thematically, Lynx probably can use all of them, but Green Dragon doesn't need to use fireballs to be succesful).
Also, you need to read this thing:
https://www.chronocompendium.com/Forums/index.php?topic=11061.0

What about clever patterns — we definitely have to create some, but not every monster or boss should be VERY clever, you know, otherwise, every battle would look the same.

2 patches for the first and endgame playthroughs are actually an issue. There are some technical problems, which I can't yet describe, but, anyway, we don't need 2 patches, we can have scaling enemies and different patterns for each playthrough in a single patch, but it effectively doubles the amount of work needed, you know.

Quote
Otherwise your attempt to improve replay value will invariably have to face the "gambling" issue I've mentioned on that GFAQs discussion.
Well, 99% of all gamedesigns would go with one of 3 ways:
1. Remove "prepare"-phase completely to eliminate gambling. This is bad, because you actually reduce the amount of available player actions. It's good sometimes, but not in our situation. I mean, imagine Chrono Cross as just a line with battles going one by one without preparations. You solve a puzzle with elements given you by a god (developer), which is not actually bad, but prepare-phase definitely makes the game interesting, It's just as new game inside an existing game.
2. Make every available choice similar to other choices. This is exactly how it's done in the original game. You have a lot of various things and can win with any combination of them. While this sounds good, it's actually very casual experience. I mean, it may be good at start, but after some point every player will realize that he doesn't have to care at all.
3. The same is above, but improved with optionality. It provides a lot of gambling, but, however, with enough testing you can heavily improve it to the point where "every strategy is valid as long as it's very well executed and not heaviliy countered". We also can provide a lot of feedback to player, so, if strategies are flexible enough, you still can win even with not the best strategy in particular situation, even it's not the worst strategy. Yes, gambling still exists in this situation, but it's less noticeable.

However, as long as game is limited with amount of bosses/enemies/etc, you can't create an environment, where existing gamble doesn't matter anymore (even with your "recharge" idea, about which later).
I can give an example. EVE Online is pretty complex MMO-game. A lot of things and strategies in this game can easily kill others. However, it's not just rock/paper/scissors.
Like, you have to go with ship A against ship X. You don't know which ship you are going to face, so you hae to make choices:
The second thing is perfectly applied to Chrono Cross. However, PVP-games are self-content-creating, while Chrono Cross is not. Gamble is heavily diminished due to wide variety of possible results and also due to simple statistics and a lot of engagements.

It's not the best, but there is no other way. We can't get rid out of it, but we can make it less-noticeable. However, I prefer described ways more than your recharge idea because recharge idea actually removes "prepare"-phase, which is a big deal.
I know, it's just a way to change battle-system from outside, but it's a weird looking workaround from design-perspective. I mean, even without 6 recharges, but with only one and color-less, it's still would look like Recharge is a thing above all the battle-system and not a part of it (as element).

I mean, you can't expect Single-Player-Story-Oriented-Linear-Game to have good replayability. Once you beat all the bosses with new scritps — you have done here.
Maybe we can add a tons of new battles with increasing difficulty over and over (after end-game).

Quote
Also on that GFAQs discussion I've mentioned a clean approach to determine each Boss "theme" in order to maximize CC's battle engine functionality and how to choose plot points for specific Element distribution. The short version: Sum the total number of unique/strategic/interesting Elements, then divide them by the number of Bosses. Enforce those Element drops needed accordingly before the next boss.
I do not argue here, it looks fine.

Quote
I still think replacing 1 useless Element of each colour for multiple versions of Recharge is a superior (not to mention more doable) solution when it comes to re-designing CC's battle system.
I don't think battle-system need a redesign. It has some major unfixable issues, but everyting else is pretty well designed. Just parts of system need a lot of tweaks. However, I do understand your point and I love to discuss it.
Still, replacing 6 useless elements seems worse to me than just making them useful.

Quote
Just imagine trying to balance the system bias on the usefulness of certain character Innates (by map/boss) based on how useful a certain added status effect became on any given new Attack Element spell (such as "Asleep"). This adds such an unnecessary clutter/obfuscation to what is otherwise a very clean Innate system that I'm not sure it's actually worth it.
I do not understand what do you mean here. Status effects are already binded to Attack elements color by color, heavy buffed status effects would not affect complexity.


Quote
IE: If a Boss wastes his turn to Purify himself, now you have to design him to account for even more punishment from 3 attackers and what about those players that didn't discover the Boss status vulnerability? See what I mean by unnecessary complication?
Enemy can become more resistant or immune to some statuses if you abuse them too much. Even with feedback — some elements may give you resistances to be statused. Just an idea.
Also, you don't need to actually discover vulnerability, I think most of the immunes should be removed, maybe except those, which fit very good thematically.
There are a lot of other workarounds, like, if you just Antidote'd your Poison status, it would be pretty logical if you can't be poisoned right after.
Also, as I said, I would recommend everyone to use external overlay. We will probably add accessory item which will provide new information to your interface. Probably even with resistances of your enemy. I thought about bestiary, but not sure about it.
I am not implying that we should use everying I explained, but there are definitely enough ways to go.


Quote
Ultimately, I think it all depends on what you guys are currently capable of doing with enemy pattern modding on CC. If you can list the AI behaviors/limitations currently available to you I'm sure people can provide much more useful and precise feedback. Maybe that will spark new (but doable) ideas too, right?
Well, right now we can do almost everything. Enemies can gather and use information available to player and plan accordingly. I don't know, battlescripts and external overlay allow us to do anything, except self-learning enemies.
Title: Re: Chrono Сross Modification
Post by: kolt54321 on July 29, 2016, 01:34:03 am
I'm quite excited about a CC mod, but I'm not sure which direction it would go. Is there a clear goal and specific guidelines of what you'd like to create? Or are you just steadily exploring your options for now? Either is fine, but it does help me understand whether I should be expecting this anytime soon :)

Reading through these 5 pages, I've more or less seen suggestions for battle mechanics, different characters, hair schemes, etc.

These aren't bad. But shouldn't we focus on the stuff that matters the most - i.e. the things that people didn't like about the game in the first place? Sure, it may be difficult connecting the dots between Trigger and Cross (Crimson Echoes aimed to do that, and that was a monstrous project), but there are easier things that everyone complains about.

The character dialogue generator for one. Another is the sheer amount of characters, that people felt were superfluous or extra.

Why not kill two birds with one stone? I have no experience in modding, but injecting dialogue in specific places should be one of the easier things to do. How about we start by creating a deeper backstory for, I dunno, one of the 45 characters? In essence, you'd be making the game better than it ever was - by fixing some things people didn't like about it in the first place.

You can fine-tune the battle system, and add cool techs, sure. But will people remember it? Will it be the mod that goes down in history as the one that really completes the game? It'll be more of a "technical" mod, rather than refine the aspects that people truly care about - not the battles, but the story, what makes the game great, and what detracts from that.

It's also worthwhile to note that you can get a lot of outside support creating backstory (and character individuality present-game too, I guess) for characters than the technical aspect of adding techs and such.

Heck, I'd be happy to help flesh out some of the characters in game. In fact, any fanfic author would jump at this opportunity. Who wouldn't? It's bringing further development of their beloved characters to the actual game. It's not as hard as starting from a new slate, like a sequel, and it won't interfere with the current story either - there's a good ~40-ish characters that are essentially barebones with a blank slate, that can easily be expanded upon.

I don't like bringing this up, but Chrono Compendium doesn't have to die. I'm sick and tired of lurking here for 8 years. I'm tired of being long forgotten by SE. I say refine the game, give the characters flesh and blood, and make the game better than it was on November 18, 1999. Bits of new dialogue add up, and go a long way. There's enough characters to break things up bit by bit, and quickly finish something concrete.

I shouldn't be rambling though, I'm not even the one doing these mods. I do think though that with this type of modification we can involve the entire community in the "would-be" of each character, and get this done a lot faster than two people alone. Prizvel and Danetta, can you two create an event with new dialogue, or is this not feasible with modding yet?
Title: Re: Chrono Сross Modification
Post by: alfadorredux on July 29, 2016, 08:42:22 am
Been there, wrote that (https://www.chronocompendium.com/Forums/index.php?topic=7760.0), although the addition of Magus as a character separate from Guile (plus some other quirks) would make that script a bit more difficult to implement than just altering dialogue and adding cutscenes. Still, it's available to mine for alternate character lines, if nothing else.
Title: Re: Chrono Сross Modification
Post by: utunnels on July 29, 2016, 09:07:06 am
By the way, I can't open any of the links you posted recently, alfador, I think you missed their http part.
Title: Re: Chrono Сross Modification
Post by: kolt54321 on July 29, 2016, 09:37:54 am
Been there, wrote that (http://"https://www.chronocompendium.com/Forums/index.php?topic=7760.0"), although the addition of Magus as a character separate from Guile (plus some other quirks) would make that script a bit more difficult to implement than just altering dialogue and adding cutscenes. Still, it's available to mine for alternate character lines, if nothing else.

I'll take a read through that, thanks! For the sake of (possible) improvement, I'll being brutally honest; from the first post, it seems too much like a fanfic and too little like something that would be in the game. I don't think the atmosphere in Chrono Cross calls for "but she's kinda cute!" anywhere in the game, except for maybe/perhaps/possibly Harle to another character. Giving Serge internal dialogue might be a bit dangerous too - players identified with Serge, and if there's something he's saying that's clearly not something the player would, he becomes another character instead of the player.

There's rarely anything "spicy" in the CC dialogue, save for some Termina fun. And I don't think there's anything teenager-ish about the original script - definitely not like those YA section books that's sole purpose is to be snarky. At the end of the day, I think it's fair to say that there's a difference between a fanfic and the game script itself, not only in terms of content but in style as well. If this is going to happen, we'd have to make some revisions. AFAIK, I think players would be most interested in the type of extra dialogue that would fit in the game's environment; I wouldn't want to change the feel of the game even if someone paid me to do so.

Although I didn't read through the 22 pages yet (nice amount of material there), I noticed that you added [internal] dialogue to Serge (to give him character), but also to Kid. The way I see it, Kid is one of the most developed people in the game - I'm not sure if it's necessary to give her extra dialogue in this context. Let me know what you think though, I'd love to hear your opinion.

Thirdly, and this is very important, one of the main areas I see story-based games stumble is by the dialogue - namely, too much of it. Not everyone likes a VN, and the secret to a good game includes just the right amount of text. Even if it provides valuable backstory, it can't be walls of text - I can't emphasize this enough. We don't want to turn CC into Radical Dreamers - I do think adding bits of text at certain points consistently will add up in the long run, rather than a wall of inevitable text. If it's something that can only be viewed via a sidequest, a character explaining his position - even for a paragraph or two - is fine.

I'm glad you thought of this - 6 years earlier than me lol. Even with all my criticisms, there's a huge amount of source material there we can draw from - thank you for that. Don't take anything "negative" I say as personal; I'm just voicing my opinions on what I think could be revised and have the most benefit. I could very well be wrong.

As an example, personally, I wouldn't put most of the stuff from Serge and Kid in (I do NOT want this to be a romance novel), also because of the way the game dialogue is already geared. But for "secondary" characters, there's much to take a look at.

Another thing I'd like to note is that if this script mod does happen, and we are keeping the original cast, then the extra dialogue can't be one story broken up into 20 pieces. People switch characters for growth and battle reasons, and it would be infuriating to hear a tiny bit about Fargo and then nothing at all. We want the player to be happy with the amount of "optional" dialogue he's getting, even if he switches the character out for another one later. That means no cliffhangers.

On a positive note, prizvel and Danetta, we already have some source material. It's possible that even more people would be interested in working on this project - and with the host of characters, it would be easy to get ideas regarding each one.

This isn't going to be a fanfic - if this is going to happen, we'll make it identical to the "feel" of the game script, with slight character nuances in the dialogue to add flavor. I think one of the easiest things to do here is to go way overboard with the character traits and ruin the feel of the game. We should probably make sure that doesn't happen.
Title: Re: Chrono Сross Modification
Post by: Danetta on July 29, 2016, 11:11:27 am
// Ready reply 77 on page 6 in this topic
Title: Re: Chrono Сross Modification
Post by: alfadorredux on July 29, 2016, 06:06:06 pm
@kolt54321: As I wrote in that thread, constructive criticism is welcome (even years later).

I admit that there are probably places where the Chrono Helix script could usefully be "dieted down". What I posted was draft 1.5—I went back over each chapter before posting it, but I had no beta reader, and I was more interested in staying in character (as I perceived it) than in being terse. I probably did add more text than I cut. Not much of it is dialogue for Kid, though—Magus was the one who generated masses of stuff. Still, the original Cross script is an infodump-riddled mess (which I expect would have been touched up somewhat if the dev team had had more time), so I don't think what I came up with was much worse.

In addition, I'm not one of those players who projects themself into the character, so to me, a "silent protagonist" is a minus.  However, I do realize that it's a plus to others.

Still, Serge has fewer reactions to what's going on around him than Crono does in Trigger, or at least it feels that way. Just adding more gestures and body language at some critical points would help a lot, if the idea of a Serge who has significant dialog bothers people.

The main reason I brought it up in this thread, though, was because I wrote a lot of alternate character lines for ~20 of the PCs—I was trying to stamp out every generic Member: line where the only difference between the speakers was the accent, and I think I got almost all of them. A good number of them can probably be slid invisibly into the original Cross script.

There are also a lot of optional character-fleshing-out scenes of variable length. Some of those, like the Luccia-Grobyc-Norris and Luccia-Zelbess backstory chunks, are probably a bit ambitious (they'd require additional models or locations), but things like the Sprigg-Radius scene should only require event code and dialogue. (The intent was to produce one scene for each of the ~20 characters I kept, although some of them ended up sharing.)

Anyway, anyone is free to use all, some, or none of the contents of that script—I think I embedded a formal license declaration in the thread somewhere, even.

By the way, I can't open any of the links you posted recently, alfador, I think you missed their http part.

No, it's because I unthinkingly added some quote marks that didn't belong and the forum software overcorrected. My fault for writing the BBCode by hand. It's annoying that it doesn't quite match normal HTML on that point, though.
Title: Re: Chrono Сross Modification
Post by: kolt54321 on July 29, 2016, 07:24:50 pm
@alfadorredux: Well, the great part is that more is better than less - taking out text is much easier than having to invent new dialogue.

I didn't really explain myself very well there; I don't think I like the silent protagonist either. I never thought myself as Serge like some people did, and really loved non-silent protagonists like Neku from TWEWY. But I think Serge was a more neutral (and logical) character vs the rest of the cast - the choices I had him walk into are choices I would think he would do. Giving him too much colorful personality so that he becomes just another one of the 45 is something I would personally want to avoid.

What I was thinking of aiming for, is to give him more of a presence in the game (definitely gestures and such), and give him dialogue that everyone can identify with. Make him the neutral man - or at least as neutral as his situation.

The obvious (and probably wrong) choice to do this is to make him the Hero - just like Chrono was in CT. But I think people are going to feel another Superman is fake. What I would suggest is a reasonable path for him, perhaps a bit on the mellow side for a good part of the time, but sparked when needed. People like a reasonable character, and as that he would fit well as the main character.

Personally, I would rather fireworks of emotions - new motivations, intentions, and feelings. But it's not Chrono Cross. I realize that it wouldn't mesh well for the game, at least not for the main character.

Anyway, this is all up for debate, and if we can get this running, there's plenty of time from the humble beginnings to decide whether Serge should adopt a more nuanced personality and personal ambitions as he moves on.

One potential problem I'm seeing from the outset (well, I didn't read the script yet, so you could have solved it) is that it's difficult to create 20 distinct character backgrounds and personalities that don't overlap each other - much less 45. I'm sure I can get it done; I have a lot of source material for tropes from anime to help me out. It's just something to look out for.

Thanks for letting us (me? us? idk) use this!
...But I do feel that it's only half the job - we'd be missing out on the person who created that 22 page mammoth script. For this to work, it would be great to have your help, and it's sorely needed.

So with that said, would you like to join this project? I can't believe I'm "inviting" people when I don't even know if it's possible, or whether Danetta and prizvel want to do this. But if it's happening, I'd love to have you on board. Like you said - a beta reader can be a huge improvement, and I'd love to run some changes to your script by you if you have the time. It  would be great to know what you think. Let me know!
Title: Re: Chrono Сross Modification
Post by: kolt54321 on July 29, 2016, 07:32:46 pm
.
Title: Re: Chrono Сross Modification
Post by: utunnels on July 29, 2016, 10:15:21 pm
well I think arguing about whether silent protagonist is better/worse is like trying to persuade people who prefer cabbage to choose turnip.
 CC was designed like that was because this game is about choices YOU made affecting the future. If you add dialogues for Serge, you add your personal interpretation of how his personality should be. I mean, even if you make the same choice, there could be different reasons why you do that. And if Serge says different lines, the NPC's response might be different too.

For example, when Kid asks Serge to team up, in original CC, it is pretty much like this.

Yes
No

And you may wonder why Kid doesn't ask WHY if Serge chooses no. If Serge is a silent protagonist, then whatever he says automatically(or magically) complete the lines so they don't have to write extra lines for Kid.

For the player, it may look like this:

Yes (sounds good)
Yes (just choose the default plot, aka lazy)
Yes (why not? more team member=better)
No (I hate default choices)
No (I just want to screw up the plot)
No (I don't like this character)
No (it is new game+, just want to try something different)
No (just no)

For Serge, it may look like this:

Yes (It is too dangrous for her to be alone)
Yes (Better team up with someone who's strong in this strange world)
Yes (Wow, this one is hot.)
Yes (She looks familiar but I can't remember where did I meet her before)
Yes (Better say yes before she kicks me to the moon)
No (I can't endanger innocent people)
No (She looks suspicous)
No (I don't like scary type.)
No (I'd like to but I have important things to do....(lie))
No (I recall that strange dream, maybe it was a bad omen)
Title: Re: Chrono Сross Modification
Post by: Danetta on July 29, 2016, 11:13:16 pm
utunnels, very good point, absolutely agreed.
Title: Re: Chrono Сross Modification
Post by: Danetta on July 30, 2016, 04:31:15 pm
I'm quite excited about a CC mod, but I'm not sure which direction it would go. Is there a clear goal and specific guidelines of what you'd like to create? Or are you just steadily exploring your options for now? Either is fine, but it does help me understand whether I should be expecting this anytime soon :)

While we already know everything we need to know about battle-system, about what works and what is not, what should be done and how to get it done, we still continue exploring in other areas (primarily cosmetics, for example, understanding of animation command format to get "Green Heal Numbers" when character/enemy healed with lifesteal).

Not everything that simple about "which direction it would go". More about it in next quoteblock.

Reading through these 5 pages, I've more or less seen suggestions for battle mechanics, different characters, hair schemes, etc.

These aren't bad. But shouldn't we focus on the stuff that matters the most - i.e. the things that people didn't like about the game in the first place? Sure, it may be difficult connecting the dots between Trigger and Cross (Crimson Echoes aimed to do that, and that was a monstrous project), but there are easier things that everyone complains about.

The character dialogue generator for one. Another is the sheer amount of characters, that people felt were superfluous or extra.

While I agree that plot has a lot of issues and a lot of characters are just blank dummies, I personally can say Chrono Cross already has very good story. I also can't say Chrono Cross should be more connected to Chrono Trigger. It's 2 different games, even when they are both Chrono games. I also do not agree with "story - stuff that matters the most".
Look, what Chrono Cross actually is, as game? It reel of film with battles in specific places. You need to win in each part to procceed to the next part. Therefore, Chrono Cross = Story + Battle-System. Can you do something wrong at Story part? No, you can't. You also can't lose at Story part. Yes, you can to not do something right - in this case you will stuck in place till you do something right (i.e. going to Cape Howl when Leena said to do so). See? Game almost absolutely linear, you can only choose in which order to talk with NPC's. Simplifying this, no player input required on Story side of the game. You read dialogs, then the battle begins, this is where another part starts, where player input matters the most. Well, it should matter the most, because you have tons of options on your path to victory, but in reality it doesn't matter at all:
I can continue this list infinite. See, half of the game (story) has problems, but another half (battle) is itself a biggest problem, everything about it is just wrong, everything is bugged (A LOT of them), not working correctly and etc.

Only some of these issues can be solved by fixing numbers, so the main point to rework almost everything about battle-system, No aspect of it should be useless anymore.

Why not kill two birds with one stone? I have no experience in modding, but injecting dialogue in specific places should be one of the easier things to do. How about we start by creating a deeper backstory for, I dunno, one of the 45 characters? In essence, you'd be making the game better than it ever was - by fixing some things people didn't like about it in the first place.
Well, scenario overhaul is not an easy task too. I not only need to "add dialog lines", but also new scenes for blank characters with all the stuff, small things like timing, positions, animations, etc, and also the scenario itself. You also have to be careful and not to break anything that is working already. But yes, everything is possible to do.


You can fine-tune the battle system, and add cool techs, sure. But will people remember it? Will it be the mod that goes down in history as the one that really completes the game? It'll be more of a "technical" mod, rather than refine the aspects that people truly care about - not the battles, but the story, what makes the game great, and what detracts from that.

It's also worthwhile to note that you can get a lot of outside support creating backstory (and character individuality present-game too, I guess) for characters than the technical aspect of adding techs and such.

Heck, I'd be happy to help flesh out some of the characters in game. In fact, any fanfic author would jump at this opportunity. Who wouldn't? It's bringing further development of their beloved characters to the actual game. It's not as hard as starting from a new slate, like a sequel, and it won't interfere with the current story either - there's a good ~40-ish characters that are essentially barebones with a blank slate, that can easily be expanded upon.

Complex battle improving is not about "add cool techs", but, anyway, I said, I agree that there are a lot of place of imrpovement on Story-side.

Just because I said something like "Battle-System is my focus for now", it doesn't mean I don't care about story. There is still a lot of work to do, there is still a lot of manpower needed. After so many years I don't think there will be a lot of mods released in the future, so we probably need to work all as one. We that small community I think we are capable to either create one good modification or nothing at all. No point to split our resources/people, you know. If you think there will be scenario writers of something like that - we definitely should look at their work and then every quality piece should be included in the game.

However, I think there are issues too. Players probably won't like extended stories around characters they already like. I mean, everyone will notice improved "Turnip" story and still be okay or even happy with that, but if you add/change something about already loved character (I don't know, maybe Kid/Harle for example) then there are obviously will be people who thinks negatively about it.


TLDR:
I think battle-system problems are bigger problems for now, but every other aspect of the game (Characters/Story/etc) should be improved aswell. If battle system would not that bad, I could jump to scenario improving immediately. Yet you can start to write (or dig through Alfador[/b/]'s material) something about characters which has little or no story.



From your other post:
Quote
We don't want to turn CC into Radical Dreamers - I do think adding bits of text at certain points consistently will add up in the long run, rather than a wall of inevitable text. If it's something that can only be viewed via a sidequest, a character explaining his position - even for a paragraph or two - is fine.
Absolutely agreed, some minor things here and there will quickly add up, you can even not notice it, but you will know about characters more than you did after some point. But yes, some scenes/sidequests stuff also good, if done correctly.
Title: Re: Chrono Сross Modification
Post by: kolt54321 on July 31, 2016, 12:23:54 am
well I think arguing about whether silent protagonist is better/worse is like trying to persuade people who prefer cabbage to choose turnip.
 CC was designed like that was because this game is about choices YOU made affecting the future. If you add dialogues for Serge, you add your personal interpretation of how his personality should be. I mean, even if you make the same choice, there could be different reasons why you do that. And if Serge says different lines, the NPC's response might be different too.

We can never make everyone happy. But I still feel that a simple yes/no is going to leave the player left with something to be desired. Will people have different reasons why they pick certain choices? You betcha.

But, that doesn't mean that we can't try to inject a personality that most people will agree with, and sympathize with as well. Let's face it, even though there's 13 endings, Chrono Cross was never a game centered around choices. Sure, you had them, and a large amount of the game was different if you did/didn't recruit Kid - but I think it's pretty obvious this isn't a Skyrim-type game where your choices are the point of the game. This isn't a sandbox; Cross has a story to tell, and while there are story branches, it keeps you on more or less the same story path.

The choices in CC to me felt like they were there for the sake of choices - not for any rhyme or reason. That's what you get when it's just Yes vs. No.

If it helps to put it this way, imagine we had to start from scratch, and wanted a non-silent protagonist. There's a formula usually followed that dictates the type of person people would want to have as the main character, and his personality follows that. If we're giving Serge lines, I just want to give him a nuanced version of that.


While I agree that plot has a lot of issues and a lot of characters are just blank dummies, I personally can say Chrono Cross already has very good story. I also can't say Chrono Cross should be more connected to Chrono Trigger. It's 2 different games, even when they are both Chrono games. I also do not agree with "story - stuff that matters the most".
Look, what Chrono Cross actually is, as game? It reel of film with battles in specific places. You need to win in each part to procceed to the next part. Therefore, Chrono Cross = Story + Battle-System. Can you do something wrong at Story part? No, you can't. You also can't lose at Story part. Yes, you can to not do something right - in this case you will stuck in place till you do something right (i.e. going to Cape Howl when Leena said to do so). See? Game almost absolutely linear, you can only choose in which order to talk with NPC's. Simplifying this, no player input required on Story side of the game. You read dialogs, then the battle begins, this is where another part starts, where player input matters the most. Well, it should matter the most, because you have tons of options on your path to victory, but in reality it doesn't matter at all:
  • Attack order (1/2/3 - you don't care about Chance to Hit, you win anyway
  • Grid Management
  • Elements management and order
  • Equipment management
  • Character Selection
  • Status effect - half of them not work at all, other half just useless
  • Elements itself - many of them are useless, partially because of previous point
  • Field color - no one care, you win anyway
  • Currency, crafting components, consumables, innate color, trading shops
I can continue this list infinite. See, half of the game (story) has problems, but another half (battle) is itself a biggest problem, everything about it is just wrong, everything is bugged (A LOT of them), not working correctly and etc.

Only some of these issues can be solved by fixing numbers, so the main point to rework almost everything about battle-system, No aspect of it should be useless anymore.


I think you're assuming player input is the most important part of the game. In theory, you're correct. But let me ask you, how many people play an RPG, and say 5 years later "I have fantastic memories of those battles..." - you don't. Like you said, the battles were there in between parts of the story. If it was all cutscenes, people would get bored in the first 5 minutes.

So I think we have to ask, were people unhappy with the battle system? Read reviews, check out critics - people called CC easy, but few had major issues with the battles - at least enough to detract from the story.

Is it perfect? Heck no, I discovered bugs and ways to consistently win that people don't even know about today. I think the battle system needs a lot of work to be great. But it wasn't the main focus for me playing the game.

You know what, let's look at the the game dubbed "the best RPG of all time", yeah? Chrono Trigger. The battles had no strategy, half the techs were useless, and even boss battles were boring.

Yet, it's "the best RPG of all time." Why? Why do people award the game with this title when the battles aren't even average, at best?

It's because when people play old-school RPG's, many of them want story. The battles aren't what they're going to remember - it's the story, atmosphere, and characters of the darn thing.

So should we try to fix battle loopholes and the sloppy work the devs did when making this game? Yes. But how important it is should depend on how much people complained about it, and not many did. Most just went through the easy battles as a little something to do while enjoying the rest of the game.

People will remember things about a game's story, characters, motivations. Rarely do I see a battle system make a game memorable - even in cases such as Etrian Odyssey. And I haven't seen enough people criticize the battle system to think that it plays a vital role in this game.

Just on this note, even if we do have all the problem you mentioned fixed, there's still the main problem that plagues every Final Fantasy, Chrono Trigger, and pretty much every other RPG in existence - characters don't rely on each other unless it's for healing purposes, and instead of being a 3 person party, what we really have is 3 parties of 1 individual each trying to beat the enemy on their own. At best, we can make Chrono Cross's battle system as good as the regular RPGs' - which aren't very memorable either.

Ah, one more thing. I agree with you that the story is very good on its own (though the pacing could be better). And I absolutely believe it should be separate from Chrono Trigger - I don't get the people who claim it was supposed to be a direct sequel, when it wasn't. I'm perfectly fine with the way Chrono Cross is on its own.

But there's story and then there's story. It has a solid story, but I think it can be upped a tier if we really make the characters essential to that story, and have each one of them a reminder of certain parts of CC's world.

It goes from a good action movie to a heartfelt one. Ask any movie critic, there's a massive difference.

Well, scenario overhaul is not an easy task too. I not only need to "add dialog lines", but also new scenes for blank characters with all the stuff, small things like timing, positions, animations, etc, and also the scenario itself. You also have to be careful and not to break anything that is working already. But yes, everything is possible to do.

I was worried about the poses and scenario... It definitely isn't easy, I know. I'm just glad it's possible.

Complex battle improving is not about "add cool techs", but, anyway, I said, I agree that there are a lot of place of imrpovement on Story-side.

Just because I said something like "Battle-System is my focus for now", it doesn't mean I don't care about story. There is still a lot of work to do, there is still a lot of manpower needed. After so many years I don't think there will be a lot of mods released in the future, so we probably need to work all as one. We that small community I think we are capable to either create one good modification or nothing at all. No point to split our resources/people, you know. If you think there will be scenario writers of something like that - we definitely should look at their work and then every quality piece should be included in the game.

However, I think there are issues too. Players probably won't like extended stories around characters they already like. I mean, everyone will notice improved "Turnip" story and still be okay or even happy with that, but if you add/change something about already loved character (I don't know, maybe Kid/Harle for example) then there are obviously will be people who thinks negatively about it.


TLDR:
I think battle-system problems are bigger problems for now, but every other aspect of the game (Characters/Story/etc) should be improved aswell. If battle system would not that bad, I could jump to scenario improving immediately. Yet you can start to write (or dig through Alfador[/b/]'s material) something about characters which has little or no story.

From your other post:
Quote
We don't want to turn CC into Radical Dreamers - I do think adding bits of text at certain points consistently will add up in the long run, rather than a wall of inevitable text. If it's something that can only be viewed via a sidequest, a character explaining his position - even for a paragraph or two - is fine.
Absolutely agreed, some minor things here and there will quickly add up, you can even not notice it, but you will know about characters more than you did after some point. But yes, some scenes/sidequests stuff also good, if done correctly.

I wasn't trying to imply that you don't care about story. I just didn't see it mentioned in the thread so far, so I thought I'd bring it up. The "add cool techs" comment was a reference to some of the requests here, not to the work you were doing.

It's a small community, like you mentioned. And as time goes by, it just gets smaller. All the potential "scenario writers" and script editors will slowly move on because they think that if a script mod hasn't come out in 17 years, it probably isn't possible. And it would be a shame to lose them because of time delays. This game is old enough, and I think it's pretty apparent that if we need manpower, we'll need to provide an eye-catching incentive. Fixing up the battle system is fantastic, don't get me wrong, but if I'm anywhere near accurate to represent some of those who played this, it isn't the area where they would die for a CC remake.

Tell people that they can improve the story, in effect give life to the characters again, and we can get some 30 years olds to turn their heads and say "you know what? What the heck, let's give this a shot". People not in the Compendium community will come back and replay a mod only if they think its worth their time, and I'm just not sure how many will consider even a perfect battle system a reason to play this again.

Feel free to take your time. But the clock is ticking, if we could start this thing rolling, I'm pretty sure now is the time that would net us the most support and help in this endeavor. It doesn't require technical knowledge (on editing the script and lines, anyway), and that gives anyone a chance to help. On the other hand, battle refinement is something I couldn't help you with if I tried. Let me know what you think.

I know I said this before, but I really don't want us to lose to the test of time. Even if we wait only a year, more people will be gone and forget about CC by then. I don't want to change Kid, Harle, or any one of the other 3-4 developed characters - at least for a good while. There's plenty of blank characters, and they need improvement more than anything. Afterwards we can finetune the main ones cautiously if needed.
Title: Re: Chrono Сross Modification
Post by: alfadorredux on July 31, 2016, 10:13:45 pm
The battle system for Chrono Cross is a bit unusual; that may be one of the reasons why it isn't as well-balanced and -tuned as it could be. Well, that and the whole having-to-push-it-out-six-months-early thing. But the only combats I've ever found memorable in straight JRPGs are the ones that make me throw my controller at the wall and power off the console (the Megami Tensei family games are good at that). So improved combat would not, in and of itself, make me interested in playing a mod.

The thing is, not all of the characters are worth fleshing out, either. Those that have a main-plot-connected reason to be there (Sneff and Steena, for instance)—yeah, sure. But Turnip? He has no reason to be in the game (other than interesting impurities in what the dev team was drinking), and it's going to be really difficult to make me give a damn. There are a half-dozen others like him, too (although I admit a couple of them have a gameplay reason to be there: they're recruitable very early, when the set of PCs available is small).

As for avoiding the central characters—well, that's as likely to make people unhappy as changing them is. "You spent all that time on Korcha and yet you didn't add anything extra for $my_favourite_character?!" Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

That's my $0.02CAD worth, and I'm probably being overly negative. I usually am.

As for my pitching in, well, if you want me, I can try. I don't have as much time now as I did when I was working on Chrono Helix, but I can probably scrape together a bit of it here and there. In the end, you may decide you want nothing to do with me. ;)

One detail I vaguely remember from the days when I was more actively involved with making modding tools, which may be of use: I think the standard overworld animations for all the characters include nod and headshake sequences. utunnels may remember more (especially since he's been working with the animation files lately).

(I think I used up my day's supply of parentheses. Oops. Good thing I don't program in Lisp.)
Title: Re: Chrono Сross Modification
Post by: utunnels on July 31, 2016, 10:41:59 pm
One detail I vaguely remember from the days when I was more actively involved with making modding tools, which may be of use: I think the standard overworld animations for all the characters include nod and headshake sequences. utunnels may remember more (especially since he's been working with the animation files lately).
Actually I have a bad memory and I currently can't check because blender 2.4x(on which the original model importer was made) has a bad habit to crash on this windows 7 x64. It works perfectly on my home computer(which is stilling using 32bit os) though.
But in theory they should, for the reason you can change party members.
Title: Re: Chrono Сross Modification
Post by: kolt54321 on July 31, 2016, 11:22:32 pm
But Turnip? He has no reason to be in the game (other than interesting impurities in what the dev team was drinking), and it's going to be really difficult to make me give a damn. There are a half-dozen others like him, too.

Well then, great - we get to have a blank slate to start with. The sky's the limit when it comes to backgrounds we can give characters like turnip, and I'm sure we can do something convincing. If there are interesting characters out there, we can make Turnip (and the other dozen) into one.

As for avoiding the central characters—well, that's as likely to make people unhappy as changing them is. "You spent all that time on Korcha and yet you didn't add anything extra for $my_favourite_character?!" Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

Like I said before, we can work on the main characters as well. But I wouldn't overhaul them - we'd only to change minor things/flesh them out a tad more - people who liked the main characters already wouldn't see a difference in personality, and those who want a change will see a bit more nuanced behavior. Win/win.

As for my pitching in, well, if you want me, I can try. I don't have as much time now as I did when I was working on Chrono Helix, but I can probably scrape together a bit of it here and there. In the end, you may decide you want nothing to do with me. ;)

One detail I vaguely remember from the days when I was more actively involved with making modding tools, which may be of use: I think the standard overworld animations for all the characters include nod and headshake sequences. utunnels may remember more (especially since he's been working with the animation files lately).

(I think I used up my day's supply of parentheses. Oops. Good thing I don't program in Lisp.)


Sure! I mean, i don't know if the two main modders here are persuaded to starting this now, but if we do I'd love to have you on board.

I didn't think the overworld includes animations at all... you're talking about the main map, right? That's interesting.

I'd be more eager to know whether nods and animations can be manipulated thus far, and how much work would it take for how many changes. Manpower is a resource here we have to be mindful of as well.
Title: Re: Chrono Сross Modification
Post by: alfadorredux on August 01, 2016, 08:13:18 am
One detail I vaguely remember from the days when I was more actively involved with making modding tools, which may be of use: I think the standard overworld animations for all the characters include nod and headshake sequences. utunnels may remember more (especially since he's been working with the animation files lately).

I didn't think the overworld includes animations at all... you're talking about the main map, right? That's interesting.

I'd be more eager to know whether nods and animations can be manipulated thus far, and how much work would it take for how many changes. Manpower is a resource here we have to be mindful of as well.

The on-map and in-location models for PCs are one and the same, if I recall correctly—on the map, they're just shown from above and zoomed out. The ones used in combat, on the menu, and when a PC appears as an NPC are separate. (In general, the arrangement of the data on the Cross CDs is optimized for something other than logic—possibly loading speed.)

Each overworld model has a set of 5-6 standard animations held in a separate file on the CD (nod, headshake, run, walk, and idle would be my guess). It should be possible to call these, and the precanned special character overworld animations (things like Serge pushing the lizard rocks or Nikki in concert) using fieldscript without doing any additional work. It may be possible to transfer some animations between PCs, even, if the models have the same number of joints in a similar arrangement (Radius to Fargo might work, or Serge to Karsh). Not all of the special animations were ever identified (that is, we don't know which character they belong to, or where they're used in the game).

Animations from the same character as an NPC (stored with the NPC data in the room files, unless I miss my guess) could probably be copied into one of the blank special animations files (there are lots of them) and called against the PC version of the character. I don't think it's ever been tried, though.

Creating new animations from scratch is very, very difficult at this point, because Cross uses such a weird format and we don't have a full toolset for manipulating it. It would have to be done by manually writing the hex code for each joint rotation.
Title: Re: Chrono Сross Modification
Post by: utunnels on August 01, 2016, 09:13:19 am
One of the thing I don't understand is the wiki uses different file numbers for disc1 and disc2, making finding files more difficult. But maybe it is already too late to change all the pages.
In that case, one disc is a good solution.
Title: Re: Chrono Сross Modification
Post by: alfadorredux on August 01, 2016, 09:19:51 am
The numbers correspond to the valid entries in the file table. For whatever reason, that number differs slightly between the CDs. A one-disc setup might make things easier (including making a better base for future mods) if it's possible to make all the room files fit—I think those and the videos are the only places the two CDs have different data in the same space.
Title: Re: Chrono Сross Modification
Post by: utunnels on August 01, 2016, 09:37:56 am
Well, still using absolute file table entry numbers is easier to find things. We only need to add notes to which files are different between CDs.

Edit*
Besides, the Japanese version also doesn't match the English version in those numbers.
Title: Re: Chrono Сross Modification
Post by: alfadorredux on August 01, 2016, 10:46:54 am
The English version adds a font metrics file and a random junk file that aren't on the Japanese CDs, if I remember correctly. A more detailed check shows that the English CD2 adds 45(?) junk files ("It's CDMake Dummy!") that aren't on CD1, right at the end of the room data. Hence the mismatch.
Title: Re: Chrono Сross Modification
Post by: utunnels on August 01, 2016, 11:16:32 am
Yeah, but the absolute file table numbers match both versions.
For example, I was ripping the sky dragon isle battle field models, they are 2636 on all 4 CDs if we just use their file table index, but if we use THAT naming system, we got 4 different numbers.

I guess the file table index is also what the game executable uses to find files.
Title: Re: Chrono Сross Modification
Post by: alfadorredux on August 01, 2016, 12:59:29 pm
Well, technically that's what the file table is there for, no? ;)

I suspect there are the same number of entries in the file table on both CDs. The thing is, not all of them are valid—there are a bunch that don't ever point to a file. Those pointers aren't taken into account in the file numbering scheme used in the wiki. So file number = absolute entry - number of invalid entries up to that point.

Perhaps the invalid entries can be co-opted for expansion/single CD-ifying (along with the "CDMake Dummy!"s), but someone would have to try it and see if they dereference properly.
Title: Re: Chrono Сross Modification
Post by: Vehek on August 01, 2016, 02:32:59 pm
I still feel a bit disappointed that we didn't abandon the Yazoo numbering scheme for the absolute file numbers. The difference's why there's confusion in the wiki entry on element data (https://www.chronocompendium.com/Term/2541.html). That "2669" was an absolute file number. The file table also uses the old room numbering system that ignores the removed debug rooms. Now, there's no way they could have known that those CDMakes were once rooms, but we need the right numbers for setting up warps or warping around using the debug mode. It can also create confusion when we reference room numbers.
Title: Re: Chrono Сross Modification
Post by: DarioEMeloD on August 01, 2016, 02:45:24 pm
"We can never make everyone happy"

I'm happy either way, it's the start of a new Chrono era. Maybe this is what we needed to revive the flame for the series? Who knows, but I'm hyped anyway.

You may now continue. Please.
Title: Re: Chrono Сross Modification
Post by: Danetta on August 01, 2016, 05:34:18 pm
One of the thing I don't understand is the wiki uses different file numbers for disc1 and disc2, making finding files more difficult. But maybe it is already too late to change all the pages.
In that case, one disc is a good solution.
I already created one full disc, only need to fix some minor jumps from Opassa to endings.
Due to increased size (because of videos) this disc is not usable with PS1, but it's still very good thing for modification purpose and emulators.

The numbers correspond to the valid entries in the file table. For whatever reason, that number differs slightly between the CDs. A one-disc setup might make things easier (including making a better base for future mods) if it's possible to make all the room files fit—I think those and the videos are the only places the two CDs have different data in the same space.
If you look closely at TOS and at "videos length and ID's table" then you will see that SQUARE project was divided to 2 discs at the last moment and there are obvious places to fit rooms/videos.
Title: Re: Chrono Сross Modification
Post by: kolt54321 on August 01, 2016, 07:07:34 pm
"We can never make everyone happy"

I'm happy either way, it's the start of a new Chrono era. Maybe this is what we needed to revive the flame for the series? Who knows, but I'm hyped anyway.

You may now continue. Please.

I never thought I would say these words, but we have to keep the hype going. Get people interested, not lose them. I don't want to see whatever interest we have gone in 2 weeks, like almost every other mod.

I will not stop - I can't give up. I've been sitting on my hands for too long. This is my favorite game of all time, and I want to apply whatever I gained from those merciless years as a critic to this game - go all out. The only thing that will stop me is pushing this off for another time. The uncertainty extinguishes my motivation.

I have ideas, grand ideas. I can make Turnip the most memorable character of all time if people want me to - watch me. Please Danetta, let's make this happen. If you don't want to right now, I respect that, and it's completely your decision. But I am available now, and if we shelve it for even another month I may not be in a position to get this done. In two weeks, I start the year, with work from 7 AM till 11 PM. If I'm going to be working until 2 AM on the script, I'd like to get into the habit now. I don't know if I can motivate myself to do it starting with a full workload.

DarioEMeloD, Would you like to be on board? No worries, it's not a commitment, more of an interest check right now.
Title: Re: Chrono Сross Modification
Post by: Danetta on August 02, 2016, 12:25:27 am
kolt54321 , I do understand your position, but my time very limited, sometimes my survival pushed to edges. I am working on Cross for several years and still haven't the job done.
I know about motivation factor and how it interfere with time, but I am sure we just can't die after more than 15 years. I mean, if we are STILL here and there then it's already not possible for things to be completely abandoned.

Chrono Cross modmaking is not an easy task, sometimes you are just fighting with invincible wall over and over even when you left easier tasks untouched. Some things discouraged me when I can't solve them for a long time, but I still fight them over and over, Something solved, something is not, I am not gonna say something like "anyway we will live longer than it takes to complete" because for someone it's simply may be not true.

Anyway, I am still here, other modmakers still here too. If YOU can do something (making Turnip the greatest character or whatever) then you can start your work at any moment.

I will not shift priorities from battle-system to story rearrangement, I will look to both directions. I am not a director or lead designer here, but if we can do something together (ongoing investigations are always great (it's just nice to be engaged, lovely digging through resources, code and stuff), but it is not content-creating activity), then we should do it. You have my "yes".
Title: Re: Chrono Сross Modification
Post by: kolt54321 on August 02, 2016, 10:44:43 am
kolt54321 , I do understand your position, but my time very limited, sometimes my survival pushed to edges. I am working on Cross for several years and still haven't the job done.
I know about motivation factor and how it interfere with time, but I am sure we just can't die after more than 15 years. I mean, if we are STILL here and there then it's already not possible for things to be completely abandoned.

Chrono Cross modmaking is not an easy task, sometimes you are just fighting with invincible wall over and over even when you left easier tasks untouched. Some things discouraged me when I can't solve them for a long time, but I still fight them over and over, Something solved, something is not, I am not gonna say something like "anyway we will live longer than it takes to complete" because for someone it's simply may be not true.

Anyway, I am still here, other modmakers still here too. If YOU can do something (making Turnip the greatest character or whatever) then you can start your work at any moment.

I will not shift priorities from battle-system to story rearrangement, I will look to both directions. I am not a director or lead designer here, but if we can do something together (ongoing investigations are always great (it's just nice to be engaged, lovely digging through resources, code and stuff), but it is not content-creating activity), then we should do it. You have my "yes".

I understand how it is, it's tough sticking through with modding for years at a time. I was unaware there were other modders, I thought that this was the only mod project still active.

Practically speaking, my work can't start until I'm able to see how (at least some of) the text will look in-game. Fixing up the script without being able to see any of it in game until completion just raises uncertainty I'm not sure I could handle and still put my 100%. As I have no clue how to mod, program, or anything else of that nature, I'm helpless without you.

Because of this, I'm afraid I can't dig through anything. So I'm not sure if that's the only thing you'd like to partner up with right now, and leave the script-changing for another time, or you're giving me the thumbs up, dividing your attention on each front. Since I don't have any technical knowledge, let me know if you're still okay with this, or would rather leave this for another time. Thanks!
Title: Re: Chrono Сross Modification
Post by: DarioEMeloD on August 02, 2016, 01:30:54 pm
@kolt: Sadly I know next to nothing about hacking, otherwise I'd love to. In any case, it's probably a good idea to set up a GitHub project or something like that so that everyone can help.
Title: Re: Chrono Сross Modification
Post by: Kodokami on August 02, 2016, 05:30:01 pm
I've been checking back on this periodically since I first saw it. I'm very interested in this project! If you need any help, I'll lend a hand (if I can). Maybe I can work with alfadorredux to give underdeveloped characters more dialogue or something.
Title: Re: Chrono Сross Modification
Post by: kolt54321 on August 02, 2016, 07:16:52 pm
@kolt: Sadly I know next to nothing about hacking, otherwise I'd love to. In any case, it's probably a good idea to set up a GitHub project or something like that so that everyone can help.

Same. I don't know anything about hacking/modding either, so I guess we'll have to leave that to the pros. I think we could start a private subreddit for those involved. I would like to make it public but wouldn't want to catch SE's attention so soon...

I've been checking back on this periodically since I first saw it. I'm very interested in this project! If you need any help, I'll lend a hand (if I can). Maybe I can work with alfadorredux to give underdeveloped characters more dialogue or something.

Hey, great to have you! I can assure you, if this project gets off the ground, it will be fun. Of course, not everything is fun and games, but I think this is, more so than other projects.

What I'm really waiting for is the thumbs up from Danetta. I'm not sure if Danetta meant that I could start working on this by myself, or if she's willing to help me for now.
Title: Re: Chrono Сross Modification
Post by: alfadorredux on August 02, 2016, 08:23:48 pm
@Danetta: By all means, you should follow your muse. One thing you might end up touching on while you're working on the combat system that could help people interested in modifying the game script is more information on what some of the unknown battlescript and even fieldscript opcodes do—there are quite a few of them. If you find out anything of that nature, post it or add it to the encyclopedia/wiki.

@kolt etc.: Modifying the game script is actually a two-part (maybe even three-part) problem. Tools like the suite Terminus Traductions put together for their translation work should already be able to modify the text itself, but I doubt they can alter the number of lines spoken, make the models move or gesture, etc. That requires modifying the fieldscript, which is ugly stuff and not completely understood. yaz0r wrote a decompiler for it, but I think the only way of changing it is with a hex editor. Does anyone else know of an existing tool that might help?

(The possible third part has to do with additional cut-scenes—in Cross, they're normally separate rooms...)

I think the most important question to ask at this point is, other than utunnels, myself, and Danetta, is there anyone reading this thread who knows anything at all about programming? Because if we're waiting for me to code some solution, well, I might get to it sometime around Christmas. Might.

Regardless, I don't think there's a need to wait for Danetta's go-ahead—better to treat his(?) work and this as two separate mod ideas at this point, and maybe move to a separate thread. The two sets of work can be recombined at a later date if we decide we want them to "go together".
Title: Re: Chrono Сross Modification
Post by: kolt54321 on August 02, 2016, 09:24:40 pm
@Danetta: By all means, you should follow your muse. One thing you might end up touching on while you're working on the combat system that could help people interested in modifying the game script is more information on what some of the unknown battlescript and even fieldscript opcodes do—there are quite a few of them. If you find out anything of that nature, post it or add it to the encyclopedia/wiki.

@kolt etc.: Modifying the game script is actually a two-part (maybe even three-part) problem. Tools like the suite Terminus Traductions put together for their translation work should already be able to modify the text itself, but I doubt they can alter the number of lines spoken, make the models move or gesture, etc. That requires modifying the fieldscript, which is ugly stuff and not completely understood. yaz0r wrote a decompiler for it, but I think the only way of changing it is with a hex editor. Does anyone else know of an existing tool that might help?

(The possible third part has to do with additional cut-scenes—in Cross, they're normally separate rooms...)

I think the most important question to ask at this point is, other than utunnels, myself, and Danetta, is there anyone reading this thread who knows anything at all about programming? Because if we're waiting for me to code some solution, well, I might get to it sometime around Christmas. Might.

Regardless, I don't think there's a need to wait for Danetta's go-ahead—better to treat his(?) work and this as two separate mod ideas at this point, and maybe move to a separate thread. The two sets of work can be recombined at a later date if we decide we want them to "go together".

The main reason I'm looking for a "go ahead" is because I know that I can't actually modify this myself. So unless I can find someone who's able to efficiently mod the game via the script, and is able to commit to doing so, it's difficult to start this project altogether.

If I could actually use the tools, manipulate cutscenes, and add dialogue lines myself I wouldn't be pushing for a commitment from anyone. Since I can't though, I'm at the short end of the stick. If we don't have someone on the programming side of things, we're a wishful fanfic at best. We can't get off the ground. If there's a thread, it would be a request for someone who can actually marry the modded script and the game.
Title: Re: Chrono Сross Modification
Post by: Danetta on August 02, 2016, 09:49:06 pm
That requires modifying the fieldscript, which is ugly stuff and not completely understood. yaz0r wrote a decompiler for it, but I think the only way of changing it is with a hex editor. Does anyone else know of an existing tool that might help?
Fieldscript can be decompiled, modified and then recompiled again without any problems. We still don't know some OP-codes, but we do understand the structure of scripts and most of the OP-codes we need to. Prizvel already modified/altered/added some scenes (primarily for test and fun purposes). All existing tools are actually the same, just re-writed with the same op-code descriptions.

However, as you know, it's not an easy or fast task to work with them.
Sometimes I think about idea to create a battlescript constructor with simple interface. It's possible and not really extra hard, but for fieldscript we still will have to edit decompiled "sources".
Title: Re: Chrono Сross Modification
Post by: utunnels on August 02, 2016, 10:30:05 pm
Well, in theory a simplest script compiler is about translating hex strings into bytes and replacing the labels(jump offset, function call, script entries, etc) with actual positions of the compiled data. That is why I wrote that thing in less than 1 hour. Even if we find new opcode the logic is still the same.

However if you want to make it more human-friendly, you need to write the code to translate human-readable functions into hex string first(mostly string manipulation jobs) then use the original code to compile it.
Title: Re: Chrono Сross Modification
Post by: Danetta on August 02, 2016, 10:44:27 pm
Yes, I know, but I haven't tried anything in this direction, just throwing up ideas.
I actually can fastread/write the decompiled code without any problems, really a lot of time spent doing this.
Title: Re: Chrono Сross Modification
Post by: prizvel on August 03, 2016, 05:32:36 pm
Experiments with fieldscript. With animations more difficult. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7CuTyYnl9TA
Title: Re: Chrono Сross Modification
Post by: utunnels on August 03, 2016, 08:57:03 pm
Looks perfect.
Title: Re: Chrono Сross Modification
Post by: Danetta on August 04, 2016, 02:42:10 am
kolt54321, I don't know how would we decide is a particular idea/scene/dialog is good or bad, should be implemented or not, but if you need some vizualization/realization of your work then we can provide so. I still will work on other areas for now, but Prizvel definitely can do story-related stuff. At least something like heavily commented script code to distingush modified code/scenes from original, partial implementatin (to let you see how your additions looks in-game), etc.

Also, I recommend you to read full Chrono Cross original script, even if you already did it or completed game many times. Just because you really need a starting point of view even for almost blank characters.

I don't yet know how we should organize stuff for teamwork yet, I will prepare single-disk for further use right now.
Title: Re: Chrono Сross Modification
Post by: utunnels on August 04, 2016, 03:05:07 am
One detail I vaguely remember from the days when I was more actively involved with making modding tools, which may be of use: I think the standard overworld animations for all the characters include nod and headshake sequences. utunnels may remember more (especially since he's been working with the animation files lately).
Actually I have a bad memory and I currently can't check because blender 2.4x(on which the original model importer was made) has a bad habit to crash on this windows 7 x64. It works perfectly on my home computer(which is stilling using 32bit os) though.
But in theory they should, for the reason you can change party members.
Well I just checked, the answer is no.

Standard animations of a pc room model include stand, run, walk, idle, climb, look right, look left, and the ready-for-battle-pose.

Title: Re: Chrono Сross Modification
Post by: Danetta on August 04, 2016, 03:42:34 am
Well, if something already used in original rooms then we definitely can use it in other rooms, don't we?

Or nod and headshake only used by Serge?
Title: Re: Chrono Сross Modification
Post by: utunnels on August 04, 2016, 04:52:26 am
Or nod and headshake only used by Serge?
Nope. Serge doesn't have nod and shake animations.
I guess the animations are in the room itself, for example, maybe Cape Howl when he meets Karsh?
Title: Re: Chrono Сross Modification
Post by: prizvel on August 04, 2016, 05:30:18 am
Nope. Serge doesn't have nod and shake animations.
I guess the animations are in the room itself, for example, maybe Cape Howl when he meets Karsh?
Head rotation can be controlled via fieldscript. It is operator FE 53 XX XX YY YY ZZ ZZ (SET_CHARACTER_HEAD_ANGLE in yaz0r decompiler).
https://youtu.be/ombuNP_0Vx8

Title: Re: Chrono Сross Modification
Post by: utunnels on August 04, 2016, 05:42:15 am
Nope. Serge doesn't have nod and shake animations.
I guess the animations are in the room itself, for example, maybe Cape Howl when he meets Karsh?
Head rotation can be controlled via fieldscript. It is operator FE 53 XX XX YY YY ZZ ZZ (SET_CHARACTER_HEAD_ANGLE in yaz0r decompiler).
https://youtu.be/ombuNP_0Vx8



Ah, OK then. I think that is much more convenient.
Title: Re: Chrono Сross Modification
Post by: kolt54321 on August 07, 2016, 11:51:48 pm
kolt54321, I don't know how would we decide is a particular idea/scene/dialog is good or bad, should be implemented or not, but if you need some vizualization/realization of your work then we can provide so. I still will work on other areas for now, but Prizvel definitely can do story-related stuff. At least something like heavily commented script code to distingush modified code/scenes from original, partial implementatin (to let you see how your additions looks in-game), etc.

Also, I recommend you to read full Chrono Cross original script, even if you already did it or completed game many times. Just because you really need a starting point of view even for almost blank characters.

I don't yet know how we should organize stuff for teamwork yet, I will prepare single-disk for further use right now.

Hi! I'm using this as a placeholder for my response in a few hours.

But I do want to apologize for the lack of communication in the last few days. I had a serious family issue (I wouldn't wish it on anyone), and it's been somewhat rough. I'm back though, and am eager to get this started.

Would you have an idea where I could find the script? Like you, I thought I need to go over it too, to get a good idea of what can be improved.

On the topic of what to put in and what not, I'll get to that soon. Thank you for your patience!
Title: Re: Chrono Сross Modification
Post by: alfadorredux on August 08, 2016, 08:03:49 am
Would you have an idea where I could find the script? Like you, I thought I need to go over it too, to get a good idea of what can be improved.

It's in the Encyclopedia, under "Informative Discourses" -> "Scripts".
Title: Re: Chrono Сross Modification
Post by: Danetta on August 08, 2016, 09:38:25 am
I have read this some years ago.
http://www.gamefaqs.com/ps/196917-chronocross/faqs/37862
Title: Re: Chrono Сross Modification
Post by: rayman9930 on August 22, 2016, 05:29:09 pm
It has been a long time since I replied to this forum. Oh, well. You have my support in this 100%.

Chrono Cross is a game I actually like more than Trigger as it is one of my favorite battle systems that has never been replicated in any other game I know.

I would like to ask, once the Battle system has been fixed/tweaked, and the story has been modified, would it be possible to add a hard mode to the game? One that is a separate setting within the game? I know there already a hard mod out there, but this is a one of a kind mod.
Title: Re: Chrono Сross Modification
Post by: kolt54321 on August 22, 2016, 06:40:20 pm
It has been a long time since I replied to this forum. Oh, well. You have my support in this 100%.

Chrono Cross is a game I actually like more than Trigger as it is one of my favorite battle systems that has never been replicated in any other game I know.

I would like to ask, once the Battle system has been fixed/tweaked, and the story has been modified, would it be possible to add a hard mode to the game? One that is a separate setting within the game? I know there already a hard mod out there, but this is a one of a kind mod.

Thanks! I'm still here, but... busy. I'm currently looking over the script, and hopefully soon will start some concrete recommendations.

I think if the title screen's options are of the same sort as options in the game, it should be feasible. I don't know for sure though, Danetta could answer better than me.
Title: Re: Chrono Сross Modification
Post by: Mr Bekkler on August 23, 2016, 01:31:53 am
Kolt, I think you may have better luck if you show your talents and show that you're willing to put in the work. Do you have experience writing? Do you have samples? Are you willing, if no one else is, to soldier through until it's finished? Are you willing to learn how to use the software? The way you have been talking, saying you're not sure if you'll still have motivation in a mere month without other people to depend on, it doesn't inspire much faith. As someone who has been working on a fan game for YEARS, I recommend you check how deep the pool is before diving in.
Title: Re: Chrono Сross Modification
Post by: kolt54321 on August 23, 2016, 01:06:58 pm
Kolt, I think you may have better luck if you show your talents and show that you're willing to put in the work. Do you have experience writing? Do you have samples? Are you willing, if no one else is, to soldier through until it's finished? Are you willing to learn how to use the software? The way you have been talking, saying you're not sure if you'll still have motivation in a mere month without other people to depend on, it doesn't inspire much faith. As someone who has been working on a fan game for YEARS, I recommend you check how deep the pool is before diving in.

Like I mentioned in an earlier post, I recently had a serous family issue, and am still working on that.

And like you said, it takes a lot of dedication to pull something like this off. Do I have that level of perseverance? I don't have a clue. But it can't hurt to try diving, and see where it goes. If it doesn't work out, whatever work is done will help future projects.

I'm not going to waste anyone else's time unless I know that there's a good chance I can keep running with this. I do have writing experience, I don't have samples, and I'm currently playing the game again to try and highlight the points that can be changed to make the most impact - from there that should give enough of a boost to continue with more mundane writing. As things stand, I don't need to know any of the software, hence the nod from Danetta and others.

People here have a lot of heart, and work heart for a long time to make things happen. I hope I'm one of those people, but to be honest I really don't know for sure.
Title: Re: Chrono Сross Modification
Post by: rayman9930 on August 23, 2016, 04:40:14 pm
You never know unless you try!

Where is prizvel and/or Danetta? I have read over this thread before, but much of it is a blur to me. :oops:
Title: Re: Chrono Сross Modification
Post by: prizvel on August 24, 2016, 10:52:48 am
We with Danetta had some disagreements about the use overlay in the game. Danetta proposes to solve the problems using overlay, but the game will only work on a PC. I'm willing to give up some fixes for save the ISO format. There are other differences: for example about turn overlay. I not like this idea too, because it will radically change the tactics of battle.
About the choice of complexity: it can be arranged with fieldscripts.
Maybe the project will be divided into two parts. One I do, and Danetta the second
Title: Re: Chrono Сross Modification
Post by: Danetta on August 24, 2016, 08:32:33 pm
I would like to ask, once the Battle system has been fixed/tweaked, and the story has been modified, would it be possible to add a hard mode to the game? One that is a separate setting within the game?
With the difficulty level I want to provide, I guess you would propose an "easy mod" instead. :3
Title: Re: Chrono Сross Modification
Post by: rayman9930 on August 24, 2016, 11:57:55 pm
Anything to provide more playability to the game!

It still stinks that remixes of Chrono Cross can't be put in like the orchestra hack of Chrono Trigger. Who knows? Maybe once the battle system and the story is revamped, would figuring out Square's weird format for music be that high in difficulty? It would be an interesting find if they used the same system in other PS1 games at the time.
Title: Re: Chrono Сross Modification
Post by: utunnels on August 25, 2016, 12:44:01 am
I think CC's original music quality is good enough. Perhaps orchestra version won't make it better, and usually you need to fix looping problem.

Edit*
I think I saw some thread about importing music from FF8, can't find it right now though.
Title: Re: Chrono Сross Modification
Post by: rayman9930 on August 25, 2016, 11:20:57 am
I did say like the orchestra hack, didn't I? I have heard over 500 remixes of all three Chrono games. Some I have, others I don't. For Cross, I have heard remixes, actually more like remakes, of the game's songs that sound more "full." Remakes that sound more well rounded, without having anything altered like a remix.

I am not saying I don't like Cross's music, I love it more than Trigger. I just though it would be interesting.
Title: Re: Chrono Сross Modification
Post by: alfadorredux on August 25, 2016, 05:50:29 pm
The Cross music format is known to be similar to other Squeenix RPGs of the era (FFVIII, FFVII to some extent, possibly Xenogears). I think the FFVIII music thing was a direct byte transplant.  qhimm.com's music player for FFVIII might yield some way of extracting some data.  Or not.
Title: Re: Chrono Сross Modification
Post by: utunnels on August 26, 2016, 07:37:04 am
Well, it seems cc uses same format for both sound effects and music. If there is a working music player, at least we can rip some sounds.



I tried PSound (http://www.romhacking.net/utilities/679/).
It can open those minst files(samples) without a problem.
Title: Re: Chrono Сross Modification
Post by: utunnels on September 03, 2016, 08:58:08 am
Nope. Serge doesn't have nod and shake animations.
I guess the animations are in the room itself, for example, maybe Cape Howl when he meets Karsh?
Head rotation can be controlled via fieldscript. It is operator FE 53 XX XX YY YY ZZ ZZ (SET_CHARACTER_HEAD_ANGLE in yaz0r decompiler).
https://youtu.be/ombuNP_0Vx8

Sorry I forgot many informations about animations.
Alfador was correct, each character has a set of standard animations including node and shake.
https://www.chronocompendium.com/Term/Chrono_Cross_Player_Character_Overworld_Animation_Files.html

It is just the files listed in that wiki page are not standard .anim files. They are actually .cpt files (so I edited the page). The first section is a .anim file, the second section is of the same format as the data behind animations in a .mdl file.
Title: Re: Chrono Сross Modification
Post by: Rookie_One on November 13, 2016, 04:58:55 am
Nothing new ?
Title: Re: Chrono Сross Modification
Post by: prizvel on November 15, 2016, 02:08:19 pm
Nothing new ?
I'm a little rest from Chrono cross :) Now bear all the project files in a single-disc version, because two disks are no longer comfortable working
Title: Re: Chrono Сross Modification
Post by: rayman9930 on January 03, 2017, 04:32:13 pm
Since the majority of the holidays are over, may we have an update as what we may look forward to this year? I heavily interested in this mod. :) I would really like to play this on my PSP 3000 if I knew it did not freeze up after the first boss.