Chrono Compendium

Zenan Plains - Site Discussion => Chrono / Gameplay Casual Discussion => Topic started by: aylakat on April 07, 2015, 03:55:27 am

Title: Thanks for Crimson Echoes.
Post by: aylakat on April 07, 2015, 03:55:27 am
Hoping I'm putting this in the right forum subcategory.  Sorry if you have to move it.

I know I'm a wee bit late to Crimson Echoes.  Ya'll put this little miracle together years ago, and by then I had long stopped playing video games, even though I'd periodically collect some stray piece of CT memorabilia and remember what the game meant to me as a teen.  I've been so far removed from my gamer youth for so long, that even when CC came out, I wasn't terribly thrilled with it. At the time, I thought it was burdened by cliches that in hindsight I should have ignored.  And nowadays, the most gaming I do is when it's time to let my niece win at Wii Sports Resort.

This spring break, that urge came to play this game at the suggestion of an internet rando on OKCupid.  I had finally had some spare cash to collect some of the outrageously priced Chrono Trigger memorabilia and it sparked the urge to rediscover the universe.  I decided to devote spring break to Crimson Echoes.  I figured I'd be amused and then lose interest and find other ways to spend my vacation time. 

It's been three days and I've only left my laptop for food and bathroom breaks.

All of the original sprites and music being used in tandem with beautiful new locations and artful use characters, new and old, make it feel like some secret "part two" that could very well have been hidden on the original SNES cart.  And while that's to be expected, what wasn't was the creative story that was told, using parallel realities and creating challenging new situations.  I mean, really, some of this is totally clever.  The part with the team being split in time and each fighting their way through the same dungeon throughout the ages feels like an opportunity that Square missed out on.

The best thing so far is the battle strategies.  Playing through CT could usually be done by brute force and heals, but in CE I'm finding myself using spells like Provoke, Hypno, and Protect more than I ever did in the original games.  Not only that, but they end up being essential strategy for certain monster encounters, which really allows maligned battle characters (like Marle) to shine in ways the original wouldn't allow them to. 

And the changes to spells are magnificent, but not overpowering, because the monster encounters are tuned to be just the right amount of challenging, sometimes even moreso than bosses.  The opportunities to use AOE spells are much more plentiful, without actively nerfing the content.  In the original, Napalm and Max Cyclone were kind of wasted for me.  Now, Frog's Venom Mist is far superior to Water 1, and it actually fits the character, you know?  He's a frog.  Why wouldn't he be poisonous?  Duh.  I use that all the time, but even with the added poison status, the high enemy HPs still make it a process to win fights.  Interesting battles are so essential, because so often in RPGs, slogging through easy random encounters is like grinding levels and drops and it becoms tedious.  In CE, it is really really easy to die if you don't pay attention, which is so wonderfully engaging.

The biggest thing for me is this sensation of needing to play this game.  Like watching a really engrossing TV show or reading a really compelling book, any time I try to put the laptop away I get that sense of anxiety that pulls me back to the story.  I feel like I'm sixteen again, with all the time in the world to spend on the only thing I want to spend it on:  Chrono Trigger.  I'm not a sucker for geek nostalgia like most people my age, but this is a really special thing that brings up a lot of feelings and memories, and I get the sense that it's going to inspire the same creativity in me that the original did when I was a little weirdo writing terribly weird Chrono Trigger fanfiction and obsessively drawing Magus all over my notebooks.

So I'm writing this post just to say thanks for that.  This was clearly an incredible undertaking frought with legal peril but the results are well appreciated.  If SquareEnix had any sense, they'd adopt this game into the universe, add what they need to make it fit their worldview, and sell it out for $10 a pop on the Wii Store so you all could get your due for what you put in.  Clearly they don't have a lick of sense.
Title: Re: Thanks for Crimson Echoes.
Post by: ZeaLitY on April 19, 2015, 11:34:54 am
No problem. I've kept wishing for an idea for another one, but I can't come up with anything. it feels like we took all the low-hanging fruit with CE as a CT/CC interquel. Even trying to think of a short-term Prophet's Guile hack has been impossible for me to conceive -- it just worked too perfectly as that hidden chapter in CT, and I can't think of any other short hack that wouldn't feel like glorified fanfiction and lack immediate appeal. (Not that I have time/desire to make another hack right now, especially in light of the C/D concerns...)

I'm biased, though, because I've had my face against the glass with the Chrono series for far too long. Can you ever see another hack holding the appeal that CE and PG did?
Title: Re: Thanks for Crimson Echoes.
Post by: Schala Zeal on April 19, 2015, 08:27:06 pm
I suppose it would be okay to distribute it in the form of a patch? After all, it'd be the changes themselves, not the game.
Title: Re: Thanks for Crimson Echoes.
Post by: Feeso on April 28, 2015, 07:17:23 pm
I'm so glad someone made this thread, so I can gush about echoes to you guys. To me Echoes is almost as good as Chrono Trigger. I've only just turned 19, so I'm too young to have played Chrono Trigger when it came came out. I discovered the game thanks to a review done by a Youtuber called Kwing in 2008. It was love at first sight. The gameplay, graphics, story, art style, music and characters were all amazing, so I wanted more.

This is where Crimson Echoes came into my life. I discovered the project late in 2009 ironically because of the C/D controversy and was really crest fallen it was canceled so I took to the internet for a couple hours and was actually able to find a link to the leaked 98% beta. Actually the version I have is really odd now that I mention it, the link was gone the next day and it was leaked long before the leak that is currently going around the net. Also this version was more advance than the one on the CE memorial play-through as there was no level select. Regardless I played the hell out of it and to date have beaten it three times to date. I loved almost everything about it, the story was so awesome and it was very challenging. (Maybe too challenging, I mean OMG Dalton in the fall of Guardia chapter, the Vision serpent and the entire of the Marle alone chapters were freaking impossible without extreme grinding. Also that drum puzzle made me go crazy). I had so much fun seeing where the characters were going and it was a full game, not some glorified expansion pack. After I finished Crimson Echoes I was sad that I apparently couldn't play the new game plus but still it was great. King Zeal was so awesome BTW, he's in my top 10 villains of all time.

Later I discovered flames of eternity. I like how they want to finish the game and remove the glitches but why did they remove the CE developer cameos? That's so annoying to me. Also making Agent 12, Agent 51 with an odd accent is so dumb!! Also Glenn's accent is awful and they made dumb changes to the story like, letting Kino live. Finally why is Glenn a human? I mean it makes 0 sense, he's a frog at the end of CT.

Something I really want to do one day is finish CE but still have my version give credit to the CE staff. I want to add a title screen, balance the difficulty, remove the glitches, implement the unused sprites, make the New game plus work and finally add some side quests that can trigger an event where Magus turns Frog human for the rest of the game. Also I'd like to add a side quest that explains Norstien Beckler and a "happy" new game plus ending that has Schala rescued and doesn't lead to Chrono Cross, just for closure for people like me who don't like Chrono Cross. I've downloaded as many CT hacking programs as possible to try and do this but I have no idea how to use them or if they can be used to edit the version of CE I have.

I am curious, I know you guys made the human Glenn sprites used in Flames of Eternity but how was that going to work in CE? Would there be a point in the game where Magus would make him human? Because he's still human at the end of Trigger if Magus is still alive.

So any way thank you guys so much for making it, and yes ZeaLity if you ever decide to make a new project you can bet there would be a tonne of interest. (At least from me :D)

Title: Re: Thanks for Crimson Echoes.
Post by: Lennis on May 12, 2015, 02:31:26 am
Allow me to thank you guys as well.  There were some really thoughtful story elements in Crimson Echoes, and it was principally those things (along with numerous pieces of fan-art) that got me thinking about a serious piece of fan-fiction that reimagined Chrono Trigger.  Marle finally had a chance to shine as a character, and her having to choose between Cedric Guardia and Antaeus Poore was a golden moment in CE as well as overall Chrono lore.  The notion that Belthazar may not have had noble motives was also a great moment and brought a little more believability to the tale.

Your creation of Cedric Guardia, more than any other character, might be your greatest contribution to the Chrono Universe.  With him, you give us a whole new time period to explore that doesn't feel arbitrary or tacked on.  The Kingdom of Guardia has endured for a thousand years, so the story of its founding must be a story worth telling.  Hopefully, I can bring further justice to that tale at some point in the future.

Again, thank you for all you have done.  Crimson Echoes set a chain of events into motion that we cannot yet see the end of, but that end just might be something special.
Title: Re: Thanks for Crimson Echoes.
Post by: chi_z on June 02, 2015, 08:46:47 pm
Some sort of Radical Dreamers remake using Flux?
Title: Re: Thanks for Crimson Echoes.
Post by: Schala Zeal on June 02, 2015, 11:14:37 pm
Anything using Flux should be distributed as a patch I'd think. More lightweight and it's legal, I'd hope.
Title: Re: Thanks for Crimson Echoes.
Post by: xcalibur on July 15, 2015, 11:01:36 am
I appreciate anyone who puts their mind and effort into creating worthwhile stuff.
Title: Re: Thanks for Crimson Echoes.
Post by: Doc_Cigarette on July 27, 2015, 09:56:51 pm
I also had a great time with crimson echoes.  When i had to chose who was going to the final boss battle i sat for hours equipping and re-equiping.  The item list was very cool.  I did have the power to cut time and space, but i didn't use it. i was super excited when i got it.  talking about it makes me want to play it again.  I really enjoyed the alternate reptite timeline.  I can't imagine not having it.
Title: Re: Thanks for Crimson Echoes.
Post by: PrincessNadia78 on June 28, 2018, 04:27:02 pm
THREAD REVIVAL!!

I also want to thank the team for creating this game. I'm almost finished with it and I have loved everything about it! To be honest, it feels like a true sequel to me. I really want to thank everyone who put the time into this game, y'all did a FANTASTIC job! I'm actually kinda sad now that I'm getting to the end. :(
Title: Re: Thanks for Crimson Echoes.
Post by: Boo the Gentleman Caller on June 28, 2018, 04:47:18 pm
Quote
No problem. I've kept wishing for an idea for another one, but I can't come up with anything. it feels like we took all the low-hanging fruit with CE as a CT/CC interquel.

FALSE. YOU HAVE IDEAS. WE HAVE IDEAS.

:P

Quote
I'm biased, though, because I've had my face against the glass with the Chrono series for far too long. Can you ever see another hack holding the appeal that CE and PG did?

Actually, yes. If it's a new/untold story with new assets. I think people were impressed by CE before it was released not because it was a bridge between the two games, but because:

1.) Classic gameplay since it is based on the original ROM
2.) A sequel and return of characters they love(d)
3.) New assets that made it truly feel like a proper sequel in the same vain

It hit the nostalgia factor while being something entirely new. There's a reason it hit the front page of Reddit so long ago (that may have been due to the C&D, or perhaps it was both, I can't recall).
Title: Re: Thanks for Crimson Echoes.
Post by: chrono.source on June 29, 2018, 11:01:07 am
FALSE. YOU HAVE IDEAS. WE HAVE IDEAS.

:P


^ This. So much this.

THREAD REVIVAL!!

I also want to thank the team for creating this game. I'm almost finished with it and I have loved everything about it! To be honest, it feels like a true sequel to me. I really want to thank everyone who put the time into this game, y'all did a FANTASTIC job! I'm actually kinda sad now that I'm getting to the end. :(

Also, I'm going to toot my own horn here, but I made a prequel to Chrono Trigger, which albeit is not as grand as CE, I'd like to think it scratches the itch, as well as filling in some blanks between CT and CC.

Check it out:
http://chronosource.wixsite.com/home

Let me know what you think. Thanks!
Title: Re: Thanks for Crimson Echoes.
Post by: PrincessNadia78 on June 29, 2018, 01:41:25 pm
Could I play this on the SNES9x? That's the emulator I'm using for CE. I would love to play this!
Title: Re: Thanks for Crimson Echoes.
Post by: chrono.source on June 29, 2018, 03:05:35 pm
Could I play this on the SNES9x? That's the emulator I'm using for CE. I would love to play this!

Unfortunately no I was too impatient to learn ROM hacking back then so I did it using the RPG Maker engine. It runs on windows only though, I believe you mentioned you use a mac computer? If so go here:https://forums.rpgmakerweb.com/index.php?threads/play-games-on-mac.21006/
and hopefully that can help you out.
Title: Re: Thanks for Crimson Echoes.
Post by: PrincessNadia78 on June 29, 2018, 03:25:53 pm
I do also have a Windows laptop. In fact, that's what I'm playing CE on now. It is a slow computer though, I'm thinking about updating the processor when I have the money. It handles CE just fine though. I've had almost no issues!
Title: Re: Thanks for Crimson Echoes.
Post by: PrincessNadia78 on July 03, 2018, 03:40:40 pm
Sorry about the double post but I just wanted to say how awesome the side quests are! I'm on my last one (grinding all my characters right now to get all of their techs and to get to level 60) but wow! I'm so impressed! I wasn't even expecting side quests!
Title: Re: Thanks for Crimson Echoes.
Post by: Balroth on November 18, 2018, 09:29:49 am
Sorry for reviving the thread, but really, this mod/romhack was an unexpected surprise.

I played CT like, 2 years ago, and up to this day, I am still awed at the quality - especially knowing its age! And seeing the "synopsis" + hatred of CC (aka more a spin-off than sequel), I never gave it a try, but was interested.

Fast forward, I saw that "Chrono Break" trailer (instant depression btw), and I'm kinda nostalgic ever since, but I have so little time to play games. But recently, work made me burnout, and I had to play a sequel, whatever that was. Crimson Echoes is something I marked as a "maybe" to play instead of CC. And I did. 0 regrets!

It's not as good as Chrono Trigger, but even with the bar so high, it is remarkable. So, to the developers that made this (I feel bad seeing "UNUSED" on Credits) I thank you wholeheartedly. I'm sure you spent soooooooooo much time on this, sacrificed other aspects of your life to finish this, and it paid off. I truly enjoyed it. It definitely worked as a full sequel to me. (even though you were restricted to connect it to CC)

In the end, I had to make an account to express my gratitude, since I cannot contact the devs directly.

Thank you so much!!
Title: Re: Thanks for Crimson Echoes.
Post by: Boo the Gentleman Caller on November 18, 2018, 12:55:09 pm
Sorry for reviving the thread, but really, this mod/romhack was an unexpected surprise.

No joke: we love thread necromancy around here. We explicitly state that, unlike a lot of forums, we both endorse and encourage thread necromancy. So revive any threads that seem interesting to you!

Quote
In the end, I had to make an account to express my gratitude, since I cannot contact the devs directly.

Hopefully you like this place to stay active! This is an awesome group of individuals, and a lot of the non-active forumites still come out of the woodwork occasionally to say hello. It's pretty amazing that a 23-year old game with only one full sequel (Radical Dreamers sort of doesn't count) still has an active website with an active fanbase!

And don't forget -- there's a new Chrono hack coming out soon...
Title: Re: Thanks for Crimson Echoes.
Post by: Balroth on November 18, 2018, 04:09:48 pm
I am indeed impressed by the fact there is an Chrono community still going (and judging by this site, it has so much good information like archived interviews and more) although it does make sense, because the game's age doesn't really matter when its quality, even by today's standards is unexpectedly high xD  Although, it's kinda sad that it gets more and more obscured everyday (also that Square Enix handling of the IP is more than painful)

Quote
And don't forget -- there's a new Chrono hack coming out soon...
Do you mean a big chrono romhack like CE? If so, where can I find more details on it?  :D
Title: Re: Thanks for Crimson Echoes.
Post by: Boo the Gentleman Caller on November 18, 2018, 04:52:47 pm
Quote
Do you mean a big chrono romhack like CE? If so, where can I find more details on it?

Well, it's not a new story, if that's what you mean. Some of us are beta testing a mod that adds in playable Schala with new story content after the Ocean Palace. There are some minor additions up to that point, but that's where the big changes come into play.
Title: Re: Thanks for Crimson Echoes.
Post by: Balroth on November 18, 2018, 09:52:08 pm
Quote
Quote
Do you mean a big chrono romhack like CE? If so, where can I find more details on it?
Well, it's not a new story, if that's what you mean. Some of us are beta testing a mod that adds in playable Schala with new story content after the Ocean Palace. There are some minor additions up to that point, but that's where the big changes come into play.
Sounds interesting, mostly the story content after the Ocean Palace

Well, I will have it in mind although I honestly doubt any romhack can compare with Crimson Echoes (although, no need for comparison since any new good chrono romhack is something to play) and I sadly don't have much time to play (I have prophet's guille on my sights even before CE)

Looking forward to it when it does release though! I'm just so glad Chrono is still going  :D
Title: Re: Thanks for Crimson Echoes.
Post by: chrono.source on November 19, 2018, 03:54:10 pm
I Love necromancy..... err..... thread revival.

Glad to have you aboard. Please come by as often as you can. There's still a lot going on as Boo mentioned. Feel free to add your opinions and thoughts on anything around here; it's always nice to see a fresh perspective on things.
Title: Re: Thanks for Crimson Echoes.
Post by: CptOvaltine on November 20, 2018, 02:47:08 am
I still need to play CE.  I started it a few years back, and lost interest fairly quick.  I wasn't in the right mood for it, but it's still on my bucket list.  I'm also pretty interested in this new romhack!
Title: Re: Thanks for Crimson Echoes.
Post by: Balroth on November 20, 2018, 03:19:19 am
Quote
I still need to play CE.  I started it a few years back, and lost interest fairly quick.  I wasn't in the right mood for it, but it's still on my bucket list.  I'm also pretty interested in this new romhack!
Well, different tastes, but I had really low expectations being a romhack, but I was surprised to say the least. I have to admit I did put cheats for levelling, because defeat was often and I hate savescumming, but regardless I did enjoy it from start to end. Although, there are many flaws, but that is to be expected from the lack of time/budget - the nature of every romhack/mod haha

If you do try it out, I hope you enjoy it, for me, it did re-spark that CT feel  :D

Quote
Glad to have you aboard. Please come by as often as you can. There's still a lot going on as Boo mentioned. Feel free to add your opinions and thoughts on anything around here; it's always nice to see a fresh perspective on things.
It is amazing that romhacks are still being developed, although with the whole schala rom mentioned above, I think it's interesting since it's more of a "remaster"/deluxe edition xD I wouldn't play CT again because I have so many games im dying to play before that (Chrono Cross, Xenoblade 1, Xenogears etc etc) but it's interesting to think about. A "definitive" edition to get introduced, that will cover every loose end, instead of current CT. I really wonder what my opinions would be if in my very first playthrough I saved Schala  :shock:

Regardless, when I find time, I will post some heavy topics I have in mind (sadly, I'm late to the party but it's nice that there are other active fans and more knowledgeable than me), since this is more of a discussion/analysis site, and I love deconstruction (so many threads to read before that too~ )
Title: Re: Thanks for Crimson Echoes.
Post by: PrincessNadia78 on December 03, 2018, 10:55:28 pm
I absolutely LOVED CE. I felt like I was playing a true sequel. It’s one of my fav games! I think maybe one of my next gaming things to do is to play CT, CE and CC one right after the other.  :D
Title: Re: Thanks for Crimson Echoes.
Post by: Redline57 on December 15, 2018, 05:16:07 pm
Zeality you ROCK! Don't ever downplay this game, my friends and I consider Crimson Echoes a true, nearly official Chrono Trigger 2, in fact that's what its listed as on my computer.

This was not only what I consider a great game, but because I'm such a CT fan, I think CE is possibly my favorite game of all time, and that's factoring against FF7, Secret of Mana, Super Metroid, GTA5 and Mario 3. So my absolute condolences to you Zeality, and I apologize for this next part.

FUCK square. Anytime I'm pissed I send off hatemail for their censorship. Fuck copyright laws. Believe me I get their point but when you see elementary schools in Florida have pictures of Mickey Mouse removed from the walls that were drawn by small children because Disney sticks their nose in there, you know these rules do more harm than good. This was a game that Square could have sold themselves, I'm sure you guys didn't make it for money. If anything, this convinced a friend of mine to pay for a download of CT on his brother's virtual console, so the fan community just made square money, there ya go Square you whores. I for one have sent the CEO, their legal team, and loads of executives tons of nasty hate mail for their C&D letter, and am more than happy to not only host downloads for CE patches and the patched ROM, but I'm willing to fight head on even with legal recourse myself  simply to make noise in outrage at the wonderful art people aren't allowed to make. Anyone know why Wiz Khalifa never got sued over his song 'never been' which used Schala's theme?

Anyway. Zeality, you absolutly rock. This game was, although much harder than CT, one of my best memories I have. I first played CT at age 24, and was so impacted it is written in my mind as a childhood memory as if I played it at age 9. It was that good and CE was better in my eyes, THAT'S how good I think it is, and I still have no idea how the time traveling immunity works yet.

If you ever want anyone to act as a legal shield, I've got money and am willing to take whatever heat Square fires at you, I'll host files, advertize for ya, anything you want, name it. Long live Crimson Echoes!!
Title: Re: Thanks for Crimson Echoes.
Post by: CptOvaltine on December 16, 2018, 03:46:17 am
Anyone know why Wiz Khalifa never got sued over his song 'never been' which used Schala's theme?

I would imagine that he pays royalties for the samples.  It's relatively cheap, and easy to set up, and usually doesn't require any actual negotiation with the copyright holder.  As long as he's paying royalties Square would have no legal basis to sue.

It's the same system I'll be using for Cross Symphonic. :)
Title: Re: Thanks for Crimson Echoes.
Post by: Redline57 on December 17, 2018, 01:24:21 am
If I offer to pay Square a royalty, think we can then officially release Crimson Echoes? Like open and legally?

Granted someone needs to fix that red cartridge. By my calculations, the ROM is so big that on a regular SNES cart, the game doesn't actually finish correctly. The coding then would need effecientizing (this is a word?) to shrink it size some.
Title: Re: Thanks for Crimson Echoes.
Post by: Mauron on December 17, 2018, 03:57:57 am
It's definitely possible to run a 6MB ROM on real hardware. My understanding is something doesn't work quite right in Crimson Echoes, which causes it crash on real hardware or accurate emulators at a certain point. Back when CE was developing, both SNES9x and and ZSNES were inaccurate in a few areas.
Title: Re: Thanks for Crimson Echoes.
Post by: CptOvaltine on December 17, 2018, 04:37:59 am
If I offer to pay Square a royalty, think we can then officially release Crimson Echoes? Like open and legally?

Granted someone needs to fix that red cartridge. By my calculations, the ROM is so big that on a regular SNES cart, the game doesn't actually finish correctly. The coding then would need effecientizing (this is a word?) to shrink it size some.

In theory, yes...but theory is about as far as you'll get with that one.  With music you can purchase mechanical licenses to legally cover and distribute music that you've made without having to negotiate with the copyright holder.  In fact, as long as the original score was released at some point in the United States, the copyright holder can't stop you from releasing a cover even if they wanted to, as long as you're paying royalties.

When it comes to intellectual property you have to negotiate directly with the copyright holder.  In this case, you would have to get in direct contact with Square Enix and open good faith negotiations, which, give their iron grip over their IP, is pretty unlikely. The only way that CE would happen legally is if SE purchased (or sued for) the concept then took it in house and redeveloped it to fit whatever standard they deem appropriate.
Title: Re: Thanks for Crimson Echoes.
Post by: Redline57 on December 17, 2018, 04:55:19 pm
Isn't the limit for video games 25 years? IE, Chips Challenge 2 and its release.


PS. What IS flames of eternity? the website for it claims it is a completely different game than CE, but from what I've also heard, it was simply a hundred versions, each one just changing some text or something small (like a mod where you change one sprite in a game, not really a completely new game). So is it a project to make a Chrono Trigger 3, a sequel to Crimson Echoes, is its a different fan game (like Prophet's Guile), or is it a tweaking of CE?
Title: Re: Thanks for Crimson Echoes.
Post by: Mauron on December 17, 2018, 05:33:41 pm
Flames of Eternity is a tweaking of CE. I'm not sure how much they've tweaked exactly, but it's still CE at the core.
Title: Re: Thanks for Crimson Echoes.
Post by: CptOvaltine on December 17, 2018, 08:33:03 pm
Isn't the limit for video games 25 years? IE, Chips Challenge 2 and its release.


PS. What IS flames of eternity? the website for it claims it is a completely different game than CE, but from what I've also heard, it was simply a hundred versions, each one just changing some text or something small (like a mod where you change one sprite in a game, not really a completely new game). So is it a project to make a Chrono Trigger 3, a sequel to Crimson Echoes, is its a different fan game (like Prophet's Guile), or is it a tweaking of CE?

I would have to read up on copyright law, but my guess is if there is a 25 year limit to a copyright, it would only apply to a game/company that decides to let the trademark laps, or has gone out of business. (The Chrono Break trade mark for example) Otherwise games like Super Mario would have a million different versions from a million different developers on every platform imaginable. 

I'm positive that SE will renew the Chrono Trigger trademark when applicable.
Title: Re: Thanks for Crimson Echoes.
Post by: Razig on December 17, 2018, 08:48:22 pm
I'm positive that SE will renew the Chrono Trigger trademark when applicable.
And then throw it back in the vault until it's ready to expire again. :(
Title: Re: Thanks for Crimson Echoes.
Post by: alfadorredux on December 17, 2018, 09:21:59 pm
The length of copyright terms is a painfully complicated subject (it varies from country to country, depends on when the work was created, by whom, and what type of work it is). As far as I can puzzle out, CT's copyright won't expire until at least fifty years after it was released (Japanese copyright term for works produced by a corporation, which will probably be upheld by most countries that have signed the Berne Convention or other international copyright treaties). The only way that will change is if the copyright holders specifically release it into the public domain, assuming that "public domain" is a valid concept in Japan (there are countries where it isn't).

The music licensing thing is a special case.

And trademark is a completely different pot of eels.
Title: Re: Thanks for Crimson Echoes.
Post by: Acacia Sgt on December 17, 2018, 09:46:40 pm
As far as I can puzzle out, CT's copyright won't expire until at least fifty years after it was released (Japanese copyright term for works produced by a corporation, which will probably be upheld by most countries that have signed the Berne Convention or other international copyright treaties).

Not after release, but after the death of the author. So it could take quite a lot longer than fifty years.

The only way that will change is if the copyright holders specifically release it into the public domain, assuming that "public domain" is a valid concept in Japan (there are countries where it isn't).

It does. In Japan, everything before 1953 is considered Public Domain.

And trademark is a completely different pot of eels.

Ah, this is certainly the kicker. Copyright expiring matters little if the Trademark keeps getting renewed. Which isn't hard to do because one condition for the validity of trademarks is usage. So long a trademark is used before it expires (which is usually an X number of years), it gets renewed.
Title: Re: Thanks for Crimson Echoes.
Post by: alfadorredux on December 17, 2018, 09:52:29 pm
As far as I can puzzle out, CT's copyright won't expire until at least fifty years after it was released (Japanese copyright term for works produced by a corporation, which will probably be upheld by most countries that have signed the Berne Convention or other international copyright treaties).

Not after release, but after the death of the author. So it could take quite a lot longer than fifty years.

Some countries have special provisions for works created by corporations (since they don't die like normal people). I get the impression Japan is one of them.
Title: Re: Thanks for Crimson Echoes.
Post by: Acacia Sgt on December 17, 2018, 10:01:35 pm
Some countries have special provisions for works created by corporations (since they don't die like normal people). I get the impression Japan is one of them.

Japan has both. The "After publication" applies if there's not even one individual claimed as author of the work. Honestly, I don't know how that applies to video games, since for those we know who created them.
Title: Re: Thanks for Crimson Echoes.
Post by: Redline57 on December 18, 2018, 03:02:21 am
This is the problem isnt it? These copyrights are in this case becoming a hindrence. You're not going to release a new Chrono game, so let us!

I for one don't give a crap about copyright laws, I blame california for that. My favorite show was an anime called Candy Boy (there's no boys, its about these twin sisters.) Well it was never officially released outside Japan, so nothing in english. In my mind, watching a fansub done by fans or making a DVD subbed is fine, because they had no official product to sell me. Who's gonna drop almost 200$ on an official DVD in a language I can't read? On the other hand, I found a fansubbed Strawberry Panic! episode online. Watched it, liked it, and went and bought the DVDs at the store. So in this case, the fan's meddling NETTED the company extra sales. So these laws are trying to 'protect' the creator in terms of a financial loss. So Crimson Echoes, made for free, actually spreads the love of CT, and as downloadable games are for purchase from Sony, Microsoft and Nintendo, this actually boosts their sales in some cases, not hinders. All of us have a ROM of CT and most all of us have a hard copy too, right?
Title: Re: Thanks for Crimson Echoes.
Post by: Acacia Sgt on December 18, 2018, 03:37:58 am
For the record, I don't have a Chrono Trigger ROM. What I do own is both a physical copy of Chrono Cross and a digital copy of the same from the Playstation Network. I do have plans to buy the Steam version of Trigger, though.

Anyway, in the case of Crimson Echoes, I would assume it was as much as the issue of downloading a CT ROM to play it as the fact the CE team were using SE's property without their permission. Keep in mind that stuff like fanfics, or fan art, and that sort of stuff, which includes fangames, is technically illegal. Most people let those be since, as you mentioned, these sort of things can be used as free advertising. The thing is, though, that most of these things aren't what they make profits from. Or at least, their main source of profits.

A video game maker may not mind fanfics or fanart, since literary works or art works aren't his main source of income. A fellow video game? That could spell trouble. For CE, keep in mind it would've come out just months after the DS port. Perhaps SE thought that, since people were going to download a CT ROM to try CE (for those that didn't had one yet), they might not bother buying the DS port since they would've already had CT for free from downloading the ROM. Sure, the DS port had stuff added to it, but they might've thought it wouldn't matter. Sacrifice missing out the new content to not having to pay at all, if you will. Or also just download the CTDS ROM. Not everyone is going to "have a ROM and a hard copy too", as you say. Perhaps they even checked how the CTDS sales were going, hence why it took months between the game release (the Japanese version had a built-in English translation, so not even had to wait for the English release to play it and understand it) and the C&D order to arrive.

Granted, all this happened nearly 10 years ago, my memory is not the best in the matters of CE's cancellation. Still, it's not like SE was being completely selfish on this. Or that copyright laws are, for that matter.
Title: Re: Thanks for Crimson Echoes.
Post by: Redline57 on December 19, 2018, 04:11:28 am
No, Square can suck it. See deez nuts.

That was another point I alluded to, the fact that CE was not a rom, it was art, like a fanfic or fanart. Not their source of income. Relative to Chrono Trigger, Crimson Echoes is unknown, except by true fans. What I'm getting at is that, yes, you can download Chrono Trigger on a ROM opposed to buying it with a digital copy. I did. I do not own a console with ready-installed emulators that can go online and buy stuff (a PS3 or Xbox...3 or 4, whatever). I do however own a hard copy that costs 50$ from Toys R Us in 1995. Some people opposed to buy it may download the CT rom, and its much much more likely THOSE people who will play Crimson Echoes. As of right now, only those like us who know how to use free emulators are gonna play it. I then submit that almost ALL of the people who played Crimson Echoes are A. Those who use ROMs and won't pay Square any money ever anyway, so forget em, nothing you can do. Or B. Fans who own a paid for CT copy and search the net and probably have a ROM (but they already paid square) and then find CE for free. Of group B, if they paid for a digital download, they'd likely pay square or whomever for a copy of Crimson Echoes too. I know I would, and if not for the current legal ramifications, I'd pay the Crimson Echoes team for their work. So if square is listening to this, go ahead and buy Crimson Echoes and resell it. I bet the creators would sell it to you for one penny, keep the profits, we are here cause we are fans.

But no, its their 'no tolerance' crap that says....well since you made this artwork called CE, it was technically from a modified ROM. So does that mean if we reverse engineered the entire Chrono Trigger game it'd be good? I reiterate, we are playing something they CANNOT make money off of at this time, and as nearly the whole fanbase here either would or would not pay for it (hackers vs dedicated fans), they are collecting no money, so what's the problem? If anything they have an opportunity to make money and refused it. I understand why, but any company who officially states this as their policy is blind to copyright. And of course, they aren't. All of these companies are well aware of how many ROMs of their games are online and most of the time either they can't stop it or won't spend the money to stop it. Cue 'laws' of course.

I got a great example. The Subaru Impreza STi and the Mitsubishi EVO. Both are similar fast rally cars. It was known that these two makers had different views on racing stock models. One company would give you a membership to the SCCA and said "go race, thanks for buying our car!" and keep your warranty. The other company actively seeked on the internet (they denied it) for people who claimed to be track racing their car and then would void the warranty. So you COULD race it on a track if you kept your mouth shut, and then took the car in for service.

Same two approaches to copyright shit. Will they let the fans make their own mods to a game they bought? I recall a game called HALF-LIFE. Yeah, we all played it. And what happened? One such mod of the game got PICKED UP by Valve and in time was actually sold in the store. But square? Nooooo. Square has to keep the iron fist approach of 'our policy is ALL copyright is illegal and full force of the law..." etc etc. Maybe if they listend to the fans. I mean since Final Fantasy 7, we got countless sequels, prequels, a freakin movie, and ALL we actually asked for was a remake of JUST the graphics. Shit a remake with FF8 level graphics would have been more than great for me.

But we aren't getting a new Chrono game. So fuck you square, I'm not stopping you from any potential income. Go download Crimson Echoes, mod it, make it official, sell it for download. I'll go buy it from you because you did something cool. Crimson Echoes did a better job explain the time travel factor than you did with Chrono Cross yourselves, if anything, you should offer Zeality a job to make Chrono Break for you and you've got a guaranteed 100 preorders from this site alone. Or you can be yourselves and we'll make another fan game that you won't stop us or make any money off of. Your choice.