Chrono Compendium
Enhasa Halls - Chrono Series Analysis => Lavos, the Planet, and other Entities => Topic started by: Zaulche on August 25, 2010, 07:57:21 pm
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I have been reading through some of the discussions that I missed while I was away for a few months and one led me to brush up on the pocket dimension theory (http://www.chronocompendium.com/Term/Pocket_Dimension.html). According to the Compendium there are only two loose ends, one of which is then immediately explained. However, the last one is not gone into in any detail.
Another inquiry concerning the Pocket Dimension reads, "if Lavos could observe the eras, why didn't he notice Crono and his crew traveling through time on a mission to defeat him and take action?"
The reason it gives is that regardless of when Chrono and company enter the pocket dimension Lavos will be at his most powerful, but that does not really answer the question because if I knew something was gaining power in an attempt to destroy me I would still take care of it when it was weak, not wait until it was strong enough to threaten me. I was thinking about this and came up with several possible explanations. I wanted to hear what others thought and perhaps get some additional explanations. If we can come up with an agreed upon reason then it can be added to the compendium.
First off, how exactly does the pocket dimension exist relative to time? We know it is connected to all points in time, but does it simultaneously exist at all points in time, or only when the connection to the dimension is made? If it exists at all points in time then:
A. Once Lavos enters the earth and establishes the pocket dimension he is then connected to all points in time simultaneously. Since everything happens at the same 'time' he would then be almost instantaneously attacked by the party as they exist at the end of the game. Therefore, he never actually examined them going through time because all observations of them happened simultaneously.
If, on the other hand there is still some regular flow of time with regards to the pocket dimension then:
B. Lavos was simply overconfident or was not actually able to perceive them reliably. To him all other life forms are insects. Humans have a tendency to think little of most life forms that are very small, yet many of the smallest things are what have the highest success rate of actually killing us (small insects and arachnids, viruses, bacteria, et cetera). Things that are too small and live such a short life we are barely able to comprehend them have been killing us for thousands of years despite the fact that we generally do not take them into account.
C. They were protected by The Entity. If The Entity can influence events and create dimensional rifts and time vortexes, maybe it could also mask lifeforms. In that respect even if Lavos had been looking for threats maybe it was unable to perceive them. Until the final battle(s) whenever the party encountered Lavos it never seemed to pull any punches, killing a main character among other things. At that time maybe it realized they were a threat and went on the offensive but otherwise had no knowledge of their existence.
There is also another possibility:
D. Lavos wanted to be destroyed. Considering Belthasar's Xanatos Roulette in Chrono Cross, who is to say that Chrono Trigger was not a Xanatos Roulette of Lavos? Maybe it wanted to be destroyed because it knew it would be sent to the darkness beyond time where it could become the time devourer and destroy all of space and time. Any points that also needed to happen, such as Schala also needed to go there could have been orchestrated by Lavos and it is no more unbelievable than Belthasar's plan. That could have even been why it came to Chrono's planet, because it was here where it could set up the right people to merge with to become the time Devourer and it knew The Entity would intervene with heroes to destroy it.
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There is also another possibility:
D. Lavos wanted to be destroyed. Considering Belthasar's Xanatos Roulette in Chrono Cross, who is to say that Chrono Trigger was not a Xanatos Roulette of Lavos? Maybe it wanted to be destroyed because it knew it would be sent to the darkness beyond time where it could become the time devourer and destroy all of space and time. Any points that also needed to happen, such as Schala also needed to go there could have been orchestrated by Lavos and it is no more unbelievable than Belthasar's plan. That could have even been why it came to Chrono's planet, because it was here where it could set up the right people to merge with to become the time Devourer and it knew The Entity would intervene with heroes to destroy it.
Have to say this one it false. I don't think Lavos had any idea about the DBT or that it would end up there if defeated. And then the fact that Lavos wouldn't have a clue that Schala would end up there too, or that merging with her would create the Time Devourer, or the very concept of what the Time Devourer is. If Lavos wanted to be destroyed and destroy all...
Why did it bothered to make all those spawn in 2300 AD?
Why did it wanted to prevent his demise, of all things, by pulling Chronopolis to the past?
Lavos most certainly wanted to avoid being killed, especially with the latter actions.
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Hmmm.... If something can create distortions in time, it stands to reason that it can also view different era's of time, and possibly Lavos did see its own death at the hands of Crono and Co.
Why did it bother to make all of those spawn if it wanted to be destroyed and to destroy all?
Why do we create offspring knowing we will die? Because it is in our nature to do so. If, through it's defeat, it would go through the changes that it did, and it knew so, then it stands to reason that it's offspring would do the same if they, too, were defeated. Perhaps we are standing at the edge of a multitude of Chrono games just based on those 3 that it did create.
Why did it want to prevent its demise by pulling Chronopolis into the past? Possibly for the same reason that it would prevent its demise at the hands of Crono and Co. in CT. Again, because it is in the nature of all things to fight for life to the very death. It is the most basic of survival instincts.
And who is to say, that if this theory is correct, that Lavos, as the Time Destroyer, was even defeated in CC? Schala was separated from it, sure, and it was definitely weakened, but who is to say that it did not go into even more infinite parallel dimensions to wreak havoc? At that point, it would have a multitude of dimensional worlds to feast off of and become even stronger, all thanks to Crono and Co.
And, I think, that if this theory is correct and Lavos did intend to do all of these things, then it must have surely known that if its enemies assumed it defeated, they would be less likely to follow it into the vortex or figure a way to rid all Dimensions of it forever.
Also, it's kind of a respect thing. If, through its defeat, it can feast off of an infinite amount of possible worlds at the same time, then it would honor those that defeated it by leaving their world and them in peace.
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About the spawns, perhaps they will be send to other planets after this one is done?
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Why did it bother to make all of those spawn if it wanted to be destroyed and to destroy all?
Why do we create offspring knowing we will die? Because it is in our nature to do so. If, through it's defeat, it would go through the changes that it did, and it knew so, then it stands to reason that it's offspring would do the same if they, too, were defeated. Perhaps we are standing at the edge of a multitude of Chrono games just based on those 3 that it did create.
Why did it want to prevent its demise by pulling Chronopolis into the past? Possibly for the same reason that it would prevent its demise at the hands of Crono and Co. in CT. Again, because it is in the nature of all things to fight for life to the very death. It is the most basic of survival instincts.
Both cases are stablished as simple instinct reaction, understandable. However, if Lavos supposely had this plan, why would it bother then? It means it thought it through, and if it's capable of going beyond just following instinct, it can well go against it then. Just like how we can choose to not have children or commit suicide.
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Ah, but you skip over the third point of my post which explains that if Lavos did see it coming, even if it was able to not fall prey to instinct, it would most likely want to make the illusion complete by making those fighting against it believe that it had truly been destroyed and hadn't wanted to be destroyed.
Perhaps the fights did weaken it enough to be destroyed, if followed wherever it went to and needed time to recharge before the events which occurred in CC and after CC.
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I skipped it since, well, Crono and company at the time certainly had no idea of the DBT and all that stuff. And to them, Lavos being gone and the future being fine meant they did it, end of story. Lavos can get away with it even without a plan.
But I still say Lavos didn't had all this planned. The survival instict showed should be more than enough...
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Yes, but the theory can not be disproven, which makes it possible. There are a lot of contradicting points, but none concrete enough to discard the theory.
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Now that's giving Lavos too much credit it shouldn't have. It was just a creature following its natural course of life; grow, mature, leave offspring, then die. How could it have known about the DBT? The very concept of the DBT wasn't introduced until CC, and you just couldn't learned it like whenever. For example, Belthasar had to delve deep into research before discovering it, so how could Lavos did it then? It really makes no sense.
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I did not realize that my fourth point would spark such interest but I am glad that people are thinking about it, regardless of whether it is possible or not in and of itself. Idioticidioms already covered the points I would bring up in defense of the theory.
I would say that we are all following our natural course of life. Just because Lavos is does not mean that it is not knowledgeable about the DBT. Humans have a tendency to think anything except them has higher cognitive functions, but just because other animals do not feel the need to force it on others does not mean it is nonexistent. Now we know Dolphins and pigeons can recognize themselves in a reflection, something few animals seem to be able to do. However, our knowing this is true now does not mean before this point they did not have the mental capacity to do so. By the same token we actually never figure out just how intelligent Lavos is. Sure, it might not demonstrate anything beyond what we interpret as instinct. However, doing so is also a good way to hide how much it does know. Play the fool and people think you are, allowing you to gain the upper hand because when you pull something off it is completely unexpected.
As far as knowing about the DBT specifically, it is true that Belthasar had to do intensive research to learn about it. Maybe Lavos already did. It is reasonable to think that Lavos is the spawn of another Lavos traveling from a different planet that was not able to defend itself. How many generations of Lavos are there and how long have they been alive? Especially if the pocket dimension is included there are thousands upon thousands of years of knowledge that can be obtained in every cycle. There is no indication that had Lavos not been stopped that it would have died, so Lavos could be billions of years old for all we know.
I will concede that Lavos may not have come to Chrono's planet specifically to enter the DBT. But since it can connect to multiple time periods with its pocket dimension it may have realized its death was likely and then went about setting things up to allow it to enter the DBT. Sort of like Obi-Wan Kenobi facing Darth Vader in episode IV. Realizing he would not be able to escape he was able to set himself up to remain "alive" after death.
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I think the biggest misconception people have is that if something can not communicate an idea, that it does not have it. Dolphins have been proven to be just as smart, if not smarter than humans in many different areas and yet, they are not able to communicate what they know to us, so most people deem them to be inferior.
Lavos' main priority is domination over all living things and growth. It absorbs and learns from all creatures it comes in contact with and outgrows them with increasing rapidity. It is then conceivable, that by learning from the humans it had observed since it fell to Earth in Ayla's time period, that it could grow and learn enough to actually be aware of a DBT and Pocket Dimensions. After all, the Kingdom of Zeal is a great example of the breadth of human technology, what with all that it had accomplished via the building of the Blackbird, the Ocean Palace and much, much more. It is possible that Lavos saw Gaspar building the Time Egg, saw Balthazar designing the Epoch, and saw, through it's connection to various era's of time, the results of those creations. While not being able to stop the progression of those ideas, via the Planet's interference, it might have kept searching the recesses of its knowledge until it finally stumbled upon the same ideas that humans would, but in a much quicker manner. It is possible that Lavos was aware of such things and had prepared for them, and who would it share this knowledge with when its main concern is domination and destruction?
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I would argue that Lavos was a highly advanced sentient intelligence. Its mind was far more advanced than humans, and he may have had a greater intellect than even Mother Brain. Its mind is also fundamentally different than ours, which may be why it did not communicate.. any more than we could communicate with a whale.
Consider its use of powerful magic, its harvesting of genetics, and its intentional destruction of zeal that did not destroy everything else. You could also say that the 1999 apocalypse was an intelligent act, considering that it took place at a time when human civilization was once more becoming a threat to lavos.
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I will concede that Lavos may not have come to Chrono's planet specifically to enter the DBT. But since it can connect to multiple time periods with its pocket dimension it may have realized its death was likely and then went about setting things up to allow it to enter the DBT.
But that would contradict with it's actions to stay alive. If so, it wouldn't have bothered to pull Chronopolis to the past if it was accepting it's death already.
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Unless by doing so, it helped it accomplish its goal.
In Final Fantasy X, Jecht accepted his death and still retained his fighting spirit. Just because you know something has to happen and just because you accept that outcome doesn't mean you're not going to make them work to achieve it. It's a simple matter of pride. Lavos will not just lay down and die without a fight, even if it knows what lays ahead. Lavos doesn't take a dive for anyone.
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Well, Lavos didn't 'enter' DBT, it was dead, slain, destroyed, smashed... :P
Isn't the nature of DBT a recycle bin for discarded timelines? That means creatures slain don't go there (if so, it would be called hell), but timelines eliminated by time travel as well as creatures exist in them will be dumped into DBT.
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Well, if you take the garbage out of your house and dump it in the garbage can, then isn't that technically the point that garbage 'enters' the can?
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The Darkness Beyond Time is the final wastebasket for timelines nullified by time travel.
Hmm, the nature of DBT is quite confusing. Think about it, if it contains duplicate timelines created by time travel, there must already be some Lavos there.
If so, Lavos doesn't have to enter DBT through a gate like Schala (and vise versa).
And what's more funny, if it was already killed, how could it crawl into a gate?
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Well, I believe the theory to be that, once defeated, Lavos doesn't 'crawl' into a gate. Instead, its consciousness is automatically entered into DBT, much like its awareness of multiple epochs of time in CT, except that its awareness extends to multiple Dimensions of a DBT.
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So, if Lavos just being killed does not get him to the DBT then some of the things he did that otherwise make less sense become more sensible. In order to ensure he ends up in the DBT he has to do something (or multiple things) significant enough that entire time lines have to be discarded in order to eliminate him.
That seems to me to lend credit to the theory that he at least somewhat knew what he was doing.
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http://www.chronocompendium.com/Term/Darkness_Beyond_Time.html
http://www.chronocompendium.com/Term/Time_Bastard.html
Well, if we assume the theories in DBT and TB page are true, then if someone does a Time Travel, the original timeline will be DBT'd.
Or did I misunderstand?
At the Millennial Fair Crono warps 400 years into the past. His presence in 600 AD creates a new timeline, and the original is sent to the Darkness Beyond Time. In the new timeline, a new version of Crono will exist, but the original version of Crono in 600 AD is not affected because he has time traveller immunity.
The Darkness Beyond Time is the final wastebasket for timelines nullified by time travel.
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Didn't the Pocket Dimension theory get tossed? If I am recalling correctly, the main evidence for it wasn't that Lavos is at the same power level whenever he was faced (since there isn't a significant passing of time between these instances) but rather that one can face the shell in one period, defeat it, then go back in time and not need to face it again (with the exception being during the Ocean Palace Incident). Given that it requires the party intentionally behave irrationally and that the Pocket Dimension theory doesn't even address all instances of its own evidence, it seemed like it had been rejected.
Anywho, that aside...
Lavos couldn't have wanted to be sent to the DBT because it would then be a threat to its own species (if it was able to become the TD) or it wouldn't have been assured it could become the TD (if it was able to send Schala there intentionally, and it wanted to become the TD, why not also send itself there?)
The Entity's role in the game is presented as very passive. The most active part it does is share its memories with the party: there is no indication that it wants them to destroy Lavos (it might not have thought about it). Rather, given the themes of the game, it seems most likely that the party themselves were the ones to take the initiative, not the Entity. Therefore, it seems unlikely that the entity would have even thought there was a need to protect the party.
Yes, but the theory can not be disproven, which makes it possible. There are a lot of contradicting points, but none concrete enough to discard the theory.
If it can't be disproven, then it really isn't a theory to begin with but rather fanfiction.
Well, if we assume the theories in DBT and TB page are true, then if someone does a Time Travel, the original timeline will be DBT'd.
Or did I misunderstand?
Nope, that's correct. If TB is correct, Lavos doesn't even need to have himself killed to gain access to the DBT. Though, becoming a TD, he would also be threatening his own non-TD existence, since the two aren't mutually exclusive.
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The Entity's role in the game is presented as very passive. The most active part it does is share its memories with the party: there is no indication that it wants them to destroy Lavo
And at that part of the game, the characters are talking about how you see your life flash before your eyes. Another aspect one could take in all this is that Crono and Co are seeing the last moments of the Entity because it is dying because of Lavos. It's 'passive role' might actually just be reflexes as it dies, and despite the journey through CT, they can't enough to prevent the Entity from dying.
Obviously that's not the case as CC happens as a direct of the Entity being more active, but I think it was an interesting thought path.