Chrono Compendium
Enhasa Halls - Chrono Series Analysis => Characters, Plot, and Themes => Topic started by: Philosopher1701 on June 04, 2005, 03:39:44 pm
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How exactly does Serge bring about the destruction of the world?
How is he a Chrono Trigger?
Please give a detailed explanation.
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Okay, heres my understanding of why he brings about the destruction of the world:
Okay, in CT, Crono defeats Lavos, saving the future. At the time when he did that, only Another World (the original dimension) exists (for the purposes of this arguement). In the saved future, the time crash happens, and Chronopolis is now connected to 7600bc, making a new timeline yet agian, one in which El Nido exist. Now, along comes Serge. Hes supposed to die by getting drowned. But, Kid goes back in time sometime and saves Serge from drowning, causing the dimensions to split. This is in 1010ad.
Okay, now that we have that established. What year did Crono start and finish his quest? 1000ad. The only dimension in existance at that time was Another World, as Home won't be around for another 10 years. This means that only 1 version of Crono is time traveling. This also means that Crono cannot time travel to a dimension that doesn't exist yet. So Another World will still be saved from the Day of Lavos, but since Crono is unable to time travel into Home World, Lavos will still destroy Home World. Its Serge's fault because he lived, and split the dimensions.
As for being the Chrono Trigger, I believe that a Chrono Trigger is just something that changes time.
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I had thought of something similar to that. :wink:
But if this is true, then what is the significance of Home World's Sea of Eden/Dead Sea? Why does it look the way it does?
Also, does anybody else have a different theory?
P.S. Why do some people say that the Sea of Eden and the Dead Sea are actually 10,000 years in the future: within the year 11020 A.D? When does the script ever mention this?
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I have a foggy memory of Cross but I'll take a stab at this.
When the group goes to AW dead sea they find that stuff out at "ground zero" as Miguel put it. Its in the computers that are in the middle levels of the complex.
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The idea of the Dead Sea/Sea of Eden is actually 10,000 years in the future is ment to explain why the dead sea looks how it does.
Heres the theory: When the time crash happend, actually transport chronopolis back in time, it simply created a huge gate around it, one that linked it 10,000 years into the past.
So this mean that the Dead Sea is 10,000 years into Home's future, and the Sea of Eden is 10,000 years into Another's future. This means that the time split, which doomed Home, also made Home World's Sea of Eden change into the Dead Sea, the destroyed future. The Sea of Eden would be in the saved future. The reason the Dead Sea is all frozen is because FATE froze it.
There isn't any script saying this, but this is a logical theory that explains why the Sea of Eden in Home changed to the Dead Sea due to a change in its past (Serge living). Otherwise, the Sea of Eden should have Time Traveler's immunity, and therefore unaffected by changes to its past, giving us a plot hole.
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A lot of people have the opinion that Crono's time traveling couldn't effect Home World simply because it 'didn't exist' when Crono time travelled; this seems flawed to me. According to this theory, everything that happened in CT happens as normal if viewed from Home World's perspective, but Crono and co. simply disappear and don't appear again if travelling into the future past 1010AD from Another World's perspective.
The history of the timelines is exactly the same, just things from 1010AD on are different, so you could argue that Serge's impact on the world would cause Crono and co. that appear in 2400AD with Serge's impact to not kill Lavos, but Serge only exists with the affects of Serge and co.'s traveling into the future, and so he can only affect the new future, the one with Chronopolis
Basically, I'm trying to say that the arguement that uses Crono's inability to also time travel into Home World is wrong because there was another Crono in Home World to do time travelling exactly like the Crono in Another World
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Okay, that makes sense, but I still don't understand something:
Why is the Dead Sea filled with a variety of different time periods that have been smashed together?
Back on topic, here is a theory about how Serge was responsible for the world's destruction. Could his direct contact with the Frozen Flame, which would mean he technically made contact with Lavos, have contributed to him being the Assassin of Time? He became the Arbiter of the Frozen Flame, and nobody else, including FATE, could access the Flame except Serge. FATE was trying to preserve history, and not to mention, its own existance. If FATE couldn't access the Flame and have complete control of what was going on in Chronopolis and El Nido, then something drastic could occur, which could eventually lead to negating Crono's victory over Lavos. If FATE couldn't bring Serge to Chronopolis to access the Frozen Flame, then history would have been at great risk of being drastically altered.
There is a problem with this theory, though. Serge came into contact with the Frozen Flame in the year 1006 A.D. The split in the dimensions occurred in 1010 A.D. This means that both Home World's Serge and Another World's Serge had already become the Arbiters of the Flame. FATE wouldn't have been able to prevent Serge's contact with the Flame. Basically, both worlds were doomed, unless FATE could figure something out. And FATE did figure something out. If Home World's Serge was alive, then FATE could still have a chance to gain access to the Flame. Another World's Serge was dead, and FATE couldn't gain access to the Flame unless it could bring Home World's Serge to Another World and use that Serge to gain access to the Flame.
As good as this all sounds, there is still one more problem. Serge eventually destroys FATE. Well, what happens after that? Are the citizens of El Nido free to do as they please? Is Another World's future still at stake, not to mention Home World's future? Is there a possibility that Chronopolis's future could eventually cease to exist? Or maybe Lavos is still eventually destroyed anyway, and everything proceeds normally. But if this is so, then why couldn't Home World's future proceed normally without FATE, just like Another World's future could proceed normally without FATE? Why does the Dead Sea still exist in Home World?
By the way, here is something interesting I would like to bring up. In Russian, Serge means "servant". If Serge did indeed make some kind of connection with Lavos through the Frozen Flame, then could Lavos, working by means of the Frozen Flame, have "used" Serge in such a way that he sealed his own victory against Crono? This would mean that Serge was, quite literally, the "Servant of Lavos".
Note: I think I may have confused myself writing this whole theory, so hopefully someone can figure out what I am trying to say. <_<
P.S. This is completely obscure and has nothing to do with my above post, or the topic for that matter, but I think it is rather amusing. :)
El Nido is Spanish for "The Cradle". El Nido was supposedly where the origin of all life began (the Sea of Eden), thus it is the Cradle of Civilization. But remember that saying: "The hand that rocks the cradle rules the world"? Well, who was the hand that governed El Nido, the Cradle? Answer: FATE. 8)
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Does anybody think that an article should be created explaining exactly how Serge was the Key to the World's Destruction?
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My stab at it is that Lavos lost a portion of his power with the Frozen Flame when he crashed to Earth. By becoming the Flame's Arbiter and linking directly to it, Serge ensured its recovery by Home World's corporeal Lavos. Against Lavos' full power, the Magnificent Seven perished, resulting in Lavos ruling the world. If Lavos rules the world, Chronopolis is never built, meaning Lavos never gets hold of the Frozen Flame which he uses to rule the world and prevent Chronopolis from being built, which in turn means it's built and supplies him with the Flame, etc. etc. No amount of Time Bastarding can resolve this, which is why there's a paradox. And since Serge is the key point that determines whether Lavos gets the Flame or not, the paradox is oriented solely around him.
Incidentally, FATE gaining full access to the Flame was what caused the Time Crash in the first place -- Lavos sensed the Flame awakening in the future, and tried to draw it back in time to him. The Prometheus circuit lock on the Flame was part of Belthasar's plan, going into effect only after the appearance of Serge and only removable by him. If Serge is dead, the Flame's lock can never be released, thus ensuring that Lavos never gets hold of it and is destroyed in 1999. If Serge is alive and makes contact with the Flame, he will become its slave and return it to its owner.
In stating that the Dead Sea was not always a godforsaken craphole, Miguel misspeaks slightly. In fact, when Serge becomes the Arbiter, there is only one dimension. The split does not occur until the year 1008, which is when the maddened Wazuki, now transformed into Lynx, tries to drown his son. When he dies, his relation to the Lavos/Chronopolis connection makes the timelines split. Each timeline now has its own version of every given person's progression -- the version of Miguel in Home World perceives that the Sea of Eden is suddenly altered, but he cannot perceive the timeline split, because he's a person and his perception is limited to the world he exists in. Only by the binding of FATE does he learn that it's due to the paradox surrounding Chronopolis and Lavos. The disappearance of FATE in Home World is why its Records of Fate cease to function.
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By becoming the Flame's Arbiter and linking directly to it, Serge ensured its recovery by Home World's corporeal Lavos.
Interesting point, Hadriel. :)
I have always felt that the concept of Serge being the Arbiter of the Frozen Flame was supposed to be much more important than the way it has been portrayed.
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A lot of people have the opinion that Crono's time traveling couldn't effect Home World simply because it 'didn't exist' when Crono time travelled; this seems flawed to me. According to this theory, everything that happened in CT happens as normal if viewed from Home World's perspective, but Crono and co. simply disappear and don't appear again if travelling into the future past 1010AD from Another World's perspective.
The history of the timelines is exactly the same, just things from 1010AD on are different, so you could argue that Serge's impact on the world would cause Crono and co. that appear in 2400AD with Serge's impact to not kill Lavos, but Serge only exists with the affects of Serge and co.'s traveling into the future, and so he can only affect the new future, the one with Chronopolis
Basically, I'm trying to say that the arguement that uses Crono's inability to also time travel into Home World is wrong because there was another Crono in Home World to do time travelling exactly like the Crono in Another World
I don't believe its flawed. Crono and co. time traveled when there was only one version. In 1000ad, there only 1 version of Crono. Not 2. There isn't another version of Crono until 1010 (assuming hes alive). Time Traveling does not create new versions of entities either, so only 1 version can emerge from a gate in 1999, or 2300.
So its like this. We have 2 dimensions, Dimension A, and Dimension B. We have only one version of an entity, Entity A. Dimension A is the original, Dimension B is created from Dimension A at Point A. Entity A lives in Dimension A, sometime before Point A, meaning that Dimension B hasn't been created yet. Entity A time travels into the future. We can have only one version of Entity A at the time he left, and only one version of Entity A when he arrives, so which dimension do you think he will arrive in?
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If Sentenal's theory is correct, then it seems to me that it really wasn't Serge's fault that Home World's future was doomed. Kid is the one that saved him and split the dimensions. However, you could say that the whole "destruction of the world" thing was really Belthasar's fault, seeing as how he is the one that created Project Kid, and guided every event that occured.
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A lot of people have the opinion that Crono's time traveling couldn't effect Home World simply because it 'didn't exist' when Crono time travelled; this seems flawed to me. According to this theory, everything that happened in CT happens as normal if viewed from Home World's perspective, but Crono and co. simply disappear and don't appear again if travelling into the future past 1010AD from Another World's perspective.
The history of the timelines is exactly the same, just things from 1010AD on are different, so you could argue that Serge's impact on the world would cause Crono and co. that appear in 2400AD with Serge's impact to not kill Lavos, but Serge only exists with the affects of Serge and co.'s traveling into the future, and so he can only affect the new future, the one with Chronopolis
Basically, I'm trying to say that the arguement that uses Crono's inability to also time travel into Home World is wrong because there was another Crono in Home World to do time travelling exactly like the Crono in Another World
I don't believe its flawed. Crono and co. time traveled when there was only one version. In 1000ad, there only 1 version of Crono. Not 2. There isn't another version of Crono until 1010 (assuming hes alive). Time Traveling does not create new versions of entities either, so only 1 version can emerge from a gate in 1999, or 2300.
So its like this. We have 2 dimensions, Dimension A, and Dimension B. We have only one version of an entity, Entity A. Dimension A is the original, Dimension B is created from Dimension A at Point A. Entity A lives in Dimension A, sometime before Point A, meaning that Dimension B hasn't been created yet. Entity A time travels into the future. We can have only one version of Entity A at the time he left, and only one version of Entity A when he arrives, so which dimension do you think he will arrive in?
That seems solid if you look at the dimensions as a single entity until they split. However, the timelines of the dimensions are completely seperate throughout history, but with exactly similar events prior to the actual split. For example, the people in 1009 still end up in both Another and Home Worlds in 1011, so why would shouldn't someone who time travels past 1010 be split when someone who goes past 1010 in the normal flow of time is?
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No, they were not the 2 paralell dimensions until Serge lived. They were the same. The game explicitly stated that Home was an "irregularity", Another is the real dimension.
Proof: Crono: Where even angels lose their way... Ten years ago, you died at this very spot. There's no mistake. You drowned. The truth is, this world, in which you are still alive, is the irregularity... This is the false reality!
The reason why someone who goes through the normal flow would be split is because they would have been present for the split. Time Traveling is going from one point on a timeline, and appearing in another. So they would have skipped the split entirely.[/quote]
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What I meant by that was that, according to the people in Home World, they had history and they didn't just appear in 1010, and in their history Crono time traveled just as he had in Another World.
And I guess I said the "the timelines of the dimesnions are completely seperate throughout history" poorly, since I didn't mean to say that one thing was wrong or right, just that calling the dimensions seperate with similar history pre-1010 and calling them one dimension until splitting in 1010 were the same thing.
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I have noticed that Home World had very different outcomes related to Porre's occupation of El Nido. Home World's current situation between the Porrean and El Nido governments could have lead to a very significant change in history. Could this have been a factor in Home World's destruction?
Also, does anybody know if FATE had any control over Home World? If so, why didn't FATE try to fix Home World's future?
One more thing. Can someone explain to me why the Dead Sea was filled with a variety of different time peroids all smashed together into one chaotic mess?
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I don't think FATE had control like it did in Another World (through the records), but I assume it lived on through Lynx in Home World, and even without a counterpart in Home World, the computers in Chronopolis knew of the dimensions, so maybe it had a way to send Another Lynx into Home World to do stuff.
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I just thought of something:
Home World's Kid and Harle are unaccounted for.
Where are they?
Do they exist?
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Kid most surely exist in HW, as she was created before the split. Harle too, I think she was created in the storm.
I think FATE did have some influence in Home, as you learn about the Records of FATE in Home's Arni.
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Did FATE even care about Home World?
Was it only concerned about Another World's future?
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I'm not an expert of FATE... Heh, I'll pull out here and let someone else answer the FATE questions :)
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I understand.
Gosh, this game gets much more complicated when you try to analyze all of the smaller details! :)
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From what I understand FATE needed to keep tabs on Home World because that was the only dimension that had a living Serge. And Serge is the key to the flame and all.
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So, then FATE didn't really care about Home World's future?
FATE just wanted to bring Serge to Another World, and that was its only interest in Home World, right?
(Just trying to clear up some things)
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I have been replaying through Chrono Cross, and I've just completed the Dead Sea. I think I have figured out my Dead Sea questions, so nobody has to worry about that.
I am, however, still confused about whether or not FATE really cared about Home World.
Not to mention, I'm still not sure what the exact reason is for Serge negating Crono's actions, but I noticed something interesting that the ghost figure of Crono stated:
Crono: The vengeance of the future we killed is about to begin... With Serge serving as the trigger...
Is this what the script means by Serge being the Chrono Trigger? He is the Chrono Trigger that revived the Lavos Timeline? I don't think that the ghost of Crono used the word "trigger" lightly.
Also, could this be a reference to Serge being the Arbiter of the Frozen Flame, which would contribute to him being a Chrono Trigger? I recall that someone in Viper Manor stated that the Frozen Flame was said to have the ability to change history. If the Frozen Flame could do this, and if Serge is the Arbiter of the Flame, then could this be the reason that he is a Chrono Trigger? A Chrono Trigger that will trigger the revenge of the Lavos Timeline?
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I have been replaying through Chrono Cross, and I've just completed the Dead Sea. I think I have figured out my Dead Sea questions, so nobody has to worry about that.
I am, however, still confused about whether or not FATE really cared about Home World.
Not to mention, I'm still not sure what the exact reason is for Serge negating Crono's actions, but I noticed something interesting that the ghost figure of Crono stated:
Crono: The vengeance of the future we killed is about to begin... With Serge serving as the trigger...
Is this what the script means by Serge being the Chrono Trigger? He is the Chrono Trigger that revived the Lavos Timeline? I don't think that the ghost of Crono used the word "trigger" lightly.
Also, could this be a reference to Serge being the Arbiter of the Frozen Flame, which would contribute to him being a Chrono Trigger? I recall that someone in Viper Manor stated that the Frozen Flame was said to have the ability to change history. If the Frozen Flame could do this, and if Serge is the Arbiter of the Flame, then could this be the reason that he is a Chrono Trigger? A Chrono Trigger that will trigger the revenge of the Lavos Timeline?
FATE did not care about Home World, just Serge. All FATE cared about was gaining acess to the FF, and it needed Serge to do that. And like I said before Serge is the only one that can acess the FF because of the Promethius Lock.
I think that Crono's ghost doesn't know the whole story. I don't think it realizes that Schala is attached to Lavos in the DBT. Because when you think about it Serge is the only one that can save the planet from the TD. I myself still do not fully understand the circumstances that allow Lavos to destroy all of space-time, so I'm not exactly sure as to how Lavos gained this ability by attaching to Schala.
As for Serge being referd to as the Trigger, that debate is going on here: http://www.chronocompendium.com/Forums/viewtopic.php?t=723
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I think that Crono's ghost doesn't know the whole story. I don't think it realizes that Schala is attached to Lavos in the DBT.
Crono: Where even angels lose their way... Ten years ago, you died at this very spot. There's no mistake. You drowned. The truth is, this world, in which you are still alive, is the irregularity... This is the false reality! Ten years ago, it was Lynx who tried to kill you at this beach. After Prometheus broke the link between FATE and the Flame, FATE tried to eliminate any obstacle that stood in its way! In the meantime, the six Dragons had sent Harle forth to try and gain possession of the Flame. Harle made contact with FATE's biological incarnation, Lynx, and tricked him into temporarily joining forces. The elimination of the Prometheus circuit's lock on the Frozen Flame was everyone's top priority! Lynx and Harle abducted Lucca, who alone could release the Prometheus lock that
guarded the Flame... But the whole attempt only ended in failure. Then, they just waited for you to appear instead! You see, FATE calculated that you would one day cross the dimensions and try to make contact with the Flame. I don't know how to break this to you, but... Lynx was actually your father, Wazuki! Drawing closer to the Flame caused him to become unstable, and the image of you dying in terror changed him completely! Finally, after having his psyche totally eroded, he lost his soul and was easily integrated by FATE... FATE turned Wazuki into a biological interface, modelling him after your worst fear at the time -- a panther. Although Wazuki managed to escape from Chronopolis with you, he
later succumbed to FATE. Humans are such fragile, disjointed, imperfect things. Love and hate... Life and death... Perhaps even FATE itself dreamed of using the Flame to some day reincarnate itself into a new species. It is quite sad, really... It's like when you gaze into the Flame, the Flame gazes back into you.
Well, Crono seemed to know an awful lot of what was going on, and not to mention, Lucca and Marle knew all about Schala and the Time Devourer, so I'm sure Crono knew all about it, too. :wink:
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This just proves that I need to play Cross again. :?