Chrono Compendium
Zenan Plains - Site Discussion => Polling => Topic started by: ZeaLitY on May 21, 2005, 11:40:47 pm
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What's your take on the C&D stuff? As you know, Chrono Trigger Resurrection, a project to recreate 10 scenes from the game in 3D, and Chrono Trigger Remake Project, an effort to remake the game entirely in the Unreal engine, have received Cease & Desist letters from Square Enix. How do you feel about them? The poll stats will be used in an upcoming feature on the Compendium covering these affairs.
1. SE's being overzealous and liticious.
This is your option if you think SE's a faceless, uninformed corporation obsessed with the Final Fantasy series and harsh on fans of other franchises.
2. I don't like it, but SE is still acting in its own copyright interest fairly.
This is your game if you know well that it is in their full right to do this sort of thing, but still don't like the fact that they're intruding on honest fan efforts when the only possible loss is to FF Chronicles sales.
3. The projects should have seen it coming.
If you think that CTRP and Chrono Trigger Resurrection were bucking for a lightning bolt by remaking the game in 3D (remember CTR would only have been 10 scenes), choose this.
4. Don't care.
~
I'll be posting this around the Chrono community, and will report back here with the results.
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It's not that I don't like it exactly, I mean, it's kinda sad that they didn't get to finish their project, but it is within SE's rights to do what they did. Hopefully, if nothing else, it shows SE that there is still much interest in the series.
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I abstained from this poll. I would have choosen Option 2, except that I don't agree with the "I don't like it" clause. I don't generally like it when fanwork runs into the C&D brick wall, but I don't generally dislike it either. Squeenix is in its rights, and if that rubs us the wrong way we can go make our own, original bestselling video game. =)
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The main problem with both of these projects is that they were reproducing original game content. Had they not done that, they might have slipped under the radar.
I doubt Square Enix has a trademark on the likenesses of these characters. I do not remember if a likeness can be copyrighted (I do not think it can be).
---T.Geiger
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Im not sure IF its even Legal for Square to Issue such an order. Its a threat anyway. But my point is i do not see how SE has any Legal standing to Sue them should it come to a suit. NONE of these Projects Were making ANY money off of Square's Intelectual property.
IF i was running the site id be scared of square's C &D order too but Id show a little backbone and stand up to them. Theres no way you can be forced to stop what you were doing when your not making any money off of the game.
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I dont know much about copyright laws, but lets look at it this way:
You make game, and put it out on the market. You copyright it. Then someone comes along, remakes YOUR game, improves it, and puts it out for free. Would you not sue?
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It’s all absolutely ludicrous, after the first C&D I vowed never to buy another SE product again. Everybody is out to make money, but I think the old Squaresoft cared about their games, now its just mediocre, uninspired, clones that are geared to the broadest audience to maximize profit.
And don’t be fooled into the illusion that a bunch of lawyers are doing this, everyone at SE is equally responsible.
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I would love to see those games finished, but I would be very worried if Square did nothing. Them doing this shows they still care about the series and want to preserve it. Even if they never make another game it shows me that they still care enough about the series to keep it to themselves. I dunno, this might not make sense to anyone else but whatever.
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And don’t be fooled into the illusion that a bunch of lawyers are doing this, everyone at SE is equally responsible.
Yeah, fucking alpha testers, ruining it for everyone!
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I dont know much about copyright laws, but lets look at it this way:
You make game, and put it out on the market. You copyright it. Then someone comes along, remakes YOUR game, improves it, and puts it out for free. Would you not sue?
If there arent making money off it i wouldent care. Also were taking about 10 years after the game was released. LEts face it SE hasent made any money of CT for somethign like 4-5 years when they released Chroniclies. Even if they were making money it wouldent matter anyway. The undertakers of these endeavors are making nothing; IF it was me id be applauded on thier work.
And IF i was Really threatened by what they were doing id Buy what they did from them And Hire them to do it for me. Id hire them anyway. From a finacial standpoint i would be spending a few million on the whole enterprise whereas if my company did it could conceiveably take far longer and more expensive not to mention tie up my employees when they can be on other projects. Even if the creators of said undertakings were temporary employees it would still work. Hell a SMART thing to do would be to seek out the creators of said enteprise and finacially back them so they could form thier own development team.
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option 2. I think square has a right to protect chrono trigger and they should.
That said, I do think they're overreacting and their actions hurt Chrono Trigger at least as much as the "protection" aspect of these actions.
But aside from the C&D letter and threat to sue, what can Squeenie actually do about the project ? (Buy him out boys!!)
If inspired people want to make something, they'll do it anyhow.
It's not like SquareEnix will be monitoring the airwaves.
Or do they have a system which tells them the location of every CRP member's home? Each of them being collected by an escort of magitek armor riding soldiers. "Hello I'm Vicks, and these are my buddies Wedge and Piette and you've been bad"
"You're in a pickle now sonny!"
Maybe Square wants to make sure something like a Seiken Densetsu 3 transation never happens again.
Neill Corlett is still walking on this planet though.
(no, no that's what they WANT you to believe)
Fan projects like these help to maintain and create intrest in a ten years old game. And wouldn't Square profit from that?
That would probably justify a rerelease of their own (or a real sprite based sequal anyone? not that I don't like CC).
But seeing as this is not how Square seems to be thinking it makes sense for them to take the try-and-shut-them-down course of action.
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Actually, the correct answer to my question was, "Of course I would sue to protect my intellectual property." This isn't about making games, not about expanding interest in something. This is making sure people pay for their games. Its the SAME reason game companies don't like ROMs. It IS about money. And they have every right in the world to protect their property.
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While I agree that it's about money (what isn't?), I think it's also equally about the art involved. You don't just make something and then let everyone and their mother copy it. And buy them out? That would be nearly blasphemous.
"Somebody copied SE and they got hired, let's all do that now!"
Please.
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If they did a good Job then you definitly should.
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Things dont work like, "Wow, that guy copied us really good! Lets get him a job!" It works more like, "That guy is copying our idea! Let show him our Power... Sue him for all hes worth!"
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But they can not win any suit filed against any said enterprise because the Creator or prople invovled are not recieving financial compensation. They just want to scare them and make them stop for whatever reason. retarded though it may be.
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That doesn't matter. Its copyright enfringment that would result in loss of possible sales of FF:C, however small the sales may be.
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Not to mention any future enterprises into the series itself. People may not dig their version and call off the whole series because of it. It's all just possibilities. You don't want someone doing what you could be doing with your own stuff. It's just not right...judiciously(?) even.
but w/e :?
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The results from other forums:
SE's being overzealous and liticious.
34
I don't like it, but SE is still acting in its own copyright interest fairly.
56
The projects should have seen it coming.
26
Don't care. SE can do whatever the heck they want.
12
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is that just the other forums, or is the compendium's results factored into that as well?
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Other forums
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If you want more results, the CTNP poll was most likely deleted after the attack on the host site, so a resubmit wouldn't be a bad idea.
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Commentary:
LinaDarkstar
CTR is overdeveloped fanart, but CTRP is legally speaking as bad or worse than ROM emulation, which (remember?) is theft if you don't own the cartridge. SE is protecting its intellectual property.
Look, this is a fuzzy example, but bear with me. If I wanted somebody to make a rom hack of my FF6 translation, I'd ask. But if for some reason or another I didn't want that rom hack out there, then I'd like my wishes respected. It's a remake of something I did, right? Do I get some say in how it's distributed, what form it gets put in, where it goes?
Well, I'd like to, but I don't. If I had a copyright on it? Yes, I get to say where it goes and what versions get made.
I don't care how big and faceless SE is, CT is their property. They do what they want with it. If you're doing something with it they don't like? Out you go. Fanart and fanfic are so obviously unauthorized, amateur tributes that only asshats like Anne Rice try to prosecute the creators. But when you're essentially copying their work into a different format? C'mon, that's not a tribute. It's intellectual theft.
Maggie Renie
IMO this sped past the fanart line when they copied someone else's work into a different format with the intent of making money from it. Even if they deny they had that intention, they attempted to make something that they knew would likely would cut into the sales of the company from which they stole the material. Why is it so surprising to them or to anyone else that the company wouldn't like it and would try to block it?
I sympathize with fans who would like to get a look at something like this. But I support any gamemaker's right to protect its assets and profits, for without them, fewer new games, right? And given the choice I'd rather have a steady flow of new games than fan remakes of existing ones.
Lord J Esq
Someday, if you ever create anything of artistic value that winds up stolen against your wishes, you might feel differently.
HastegaMage
Square has every RIGHT to be mad, it's their copyright, their trademark..whatever. But morally and ethically why should they care about a game so dated that only creepy little fanboy forum guys like us care about it? Such a small minority of people even knew about these games coming out and weren't even going to be sold for commercial profit. Square should have seen it for what it was, intense dedication and love for something that they created so long ago. It meant so much to all of us that it was coming out, and don't think for a second that they didn't know that, I'm sure all of them have a game they wish someone would remake. So the question remains Square, Why? Well I believe it was a matter of fear, fear that this would landslide into people remaking ff2(kain and cecil in 3d?),3(Sabin's blitzes),9(snicker sorry) and God forbid that anyone ever infringe on that dear old copyright, listen squeenies there were amendments to the FOUNDING DOCUMENTS OF THIS COUNTRY, your piece of paper isn't so special
^^Amazing amount of commentary there for a thread which spanned 20 pages.
Duke Darkwood
I don't know these projects myself, but I still sympathize with people who put in that much effort only to be shot down. However, it is not only fair, as stated in 2, but they SHOULD have seen it coming.
Game companies are very possessive of their property, even if they're just sitting on it. I've been a member of an Ultima internet fan club for closing on nine years now, and have heard in the club's Usenet newsgroup about many such projects for that series, and how more than a few of them were shot down by Electronic Arts. So I've seen this kind of behavior.
Square-Enix is no different than EA. The people in charge of the company care about the money. If the developers were in charge, they'd probably understand, but the Suits are in charge.
Any project that tries to directly connect itself to the Chrono Series will recieve this fate. What you'd need to do is make a game with no overt references. Something that strongly suggests a connection, but nothing that can be proven. Something like that should probably fall under Fair Use (I don't know for sure; I'm not an expert on Copyright Laws), and if it does, they can't kill it.
Gren
Fact of the matter is this. The staff at Square has changed significantly since the days when Chrono Trigger was first released. Hironobu Sakaguchi, father of the Final Fantasy series, as well as Nobuo Uematsu, and Akira Toriyama (whom was responsible for Chrono Trigger's art in the first place), have all ditched Squaresoft to work on their own projects under the Microsoft flag, "Blue Dragon", and "Lost Odyssey".
The only involvement the existing Square-Enix really has with CT at this point is the piece of paper that says that they own it.
Stop feeling guilty and go ahead and let your anger flare at them, because the people who ordered this project to Cease and Desist are NOT the same people who created Chrono Trigger in the first place.
#3 for me. Seriously though, if the project was finished and they were about to release it publicly, SE wouldn't have allowed it anyways. I know there was a Q3 mod based on DragonBallZ and they had everything done. But Funimation did not allow them to use DBZ characters and they had to create their own characters which made the game less fun. If not, not fun at all.
However, I will say this. CT Resurrection team had all the necessary abilities needed to create the game while CT remake project looked rather half-assed. Their official artwork, no offense, looked pretty bad and everything they have completed just didn't look professional. So when CT Resurrection got C&D order, I wasn't surprised but when CT Remake Project did, I was surprised.
(by far the most retarded posts were made here)
Arcana
Definitely 3. It's not just a fan tribute - it's directly trodding on what Square-Enix does to make money. It's taking away from the Square-Enix base by taking their intellectual property, and perhaps reducing potential demand for a new Chrono product from Square Enix by drawing attention toward a fan-made one.
It's not like remixing a song - you're remixing an entire game, which means taking the characters, the music, and even the basic concept, and then walking into the product arena and directly competing with Square-Enix using their own intellectual property.
You can say it's free, but then that puts even more pressure on Square-Enix - now there's a competing product that's better AND cheaper. Is that not a forumla for disaster? Someone'll create a Chrono sequel and mislabel it as an official release, or post up fake information and point to the fan projects. If Square Enix doesn't set a precedent, then it totally screws them out of their trademarks and their copyrights.
RoeTaKa
If I made something that got respect and credibilty world wide, I think I'd be pretty pissed off if somebody took it, remade it better then sold it for free. It's like working hard on an album, then somebody takes that album, puts shitty drum loops on top and gives it away for free. To be absoloutly fair you can be annoyed at Square Enix for what they're stopping, but think about the guy inside that tall building who created the wonder of CT. We have talents to do those jobs, not so someone can take our jobs and piss on them creatively.
If you think about it, if CT was made and released in 3D then what, you'd be playing CT in 3D going "done that, done that, I know this story line so much oh wait I'm kinda bored now". It's a stupid idea. In fact (and people should agree with me here) I'm so tired of CT now because of the fans, you're spoiling it. Maybe this is Square-Enix's perception and believes that making a sequel to Chrono Cross just won't please audiences because they're to hyped up about the game released 10 years ago that just isn't being let go.
This survery is another one of those fan things that is just pointing to a sad and pointless debate about why you don't like a company that gave you a great game. A great game you're forgetting to appreciate cause of greed, I know companies are full of greed because they need to make money to stay functional, doesn't work the other way around unfortunately.
CT is great, I don't say was because it still is great.
Azar
I'd have to say number two. Although I disagree SquareEnix probably views this as a threat of sorts, almost like bootlegging. Apparently they dont see it on the level of harmless minigames and rpgmaker fan projects. I'm guessing at the volume and seriousness of these projects SquareEnix may view this as a threat and not want to endager the sanctity of their copyrights. With that said I dont see these in that regard that they are a threat, but only fan based projects that dont seem to have the will nor intention to receive profit, which I wish they didnt have a problem with.
Geoffrey Taucer
As I said in this same thread on VGmix, I think it's commercially a very stupid move by SE. They're treating some of their biggest and most devoted fans as adversaries.
Hthe8th
I vote a solid 3.
I do think there could be some definite truths to option 1 though. I've never understood why great games like Chrono and Vagrant Story were left forgotten while Square has continued to parade out shitstorms in the Mana and Saga series. I thought for sure that the merger of Square-Enix would give us some more Chrono games to play with but I was completely wrong. I honestly think Square is lost without Sakaguchi there to push out creative series, which is why they're on this suddent trip of milking FF7 for all its worth.
But more on topic I remember reading on I believe it was the Chrono Resurrection site that they planned to take the original game and score and make it 'better' which immediately turned me off from that project. If people are really willing to spend the time and energy to program games, they should have taken the route of making original games and stories in the universe.
ZeaLitY
The lines would indeed by old. Voice acting could remedy this, but even professional voice actors can be utterly terrible. Plus, not every fan has the same idea of what Crono sounded like, and this gets tough when concepts are entrenched in nostalgia.
HyperHacker
The problem with the "emulation doesn't hurt sales" argument is thanks to Revolution, it's no longer true.
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I hope you were not surprised that the most retarded posts came from OCR. :lol