Chrono Compendium
Enhasa Halls - Chrono Series Analysis => Characters, Plot, and Themes => Topic started by: Phillies64 on January 14, 2009, 11:36:28 am
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This is a just a theory with no real legs behind it yet, but could there be a relation between the Ghost Children in Chrono Cross and the three identies in the Dimensional Vortices in CTDS?
The Dimensional Vortices feature a spectre of Marle, Crono, and Lucca respectively. The ghost children in Chrono Cross are also spectres of Crono, Marle, and Lucca. In CC they appear to be much younger, but I'm curious as to why in CTDS they specifically featured spectral versions of ONLY Crono, Marle, and Lucca. Could there be a relation or is this just coincidence?
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I'd like to say it's a coincidence, even though a handful of members have made the comparison. The DV versions of Crono, Marle, and Lucca seemed less...intelligent than the Ghost Children, and they seemed almost engineered for the purpose of battle. The Ghost Children are a little enigmatic, we don't even know what they really are--they appear to be Crono and co, but their origins are completely unclear.
If we're to believe that the Ghost Children are the planet's dream, then I wouldn't be too surprised if they're related to the DV characters.
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Both the Lost Sanctum and the Dimensional Vortices seem forced or as you put it, "engineered" into the game. That's why sometimes I feel I'm looking at things to deeply. At the same time, the Vortices are the game's attempt to tie things into Chrono Cross so perhaps there is a connection.
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I don't see any connection. If they do connect, it would be hard to explain as of right now. Until an interview or something I'd leave this untouched.
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when you beat the Shade enemies, it says " Crono's/Marle's/Lucca's Latent powers obtained!!" Or something along those lines. Why? I don't know. Connection making time, anyone?
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Right--it seems that the primary purpose of the DV clones was to strengthen Crono and co, not get in their way. Similarly, Ghost Crono makes a hint about the Chrono Cross to Serge, and Ghost Lucca meets with Kid. Both the DV clones and the Ghosts get in the way at first, by fighting Crono and co and barraging Serge and co, respectively, but then provide some help to the teams, which I mentioned earlier.
Their actions are somewhat similar...but they're not similar enough to be labeled the same type of entities, at this point.
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I think they're similar in that they're both the products of discarded timelines.
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I think it's too much of a coincidence for them to not be related, but that could just be because I want to believe everything new in this port has some sort of relevance to the plot (well, except maybe the Monster Arena, although it does resemble the Grand Slam in CC). Even if it is "just me," I find it really hard to believe that the ghosts in CC didn't, at the very least, cross their mind when they put these ghosts in.
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So, I was wondering about this today, and read through a couple of articles, and figured I'd toss out a hypothesis. I managed to find this thread (I know it's old, but there's a few comments in here that are worth mentioning). but wasn't able to find any other information on the subject, so if this has been discussed at length before, I apologize for missing it. Anyhow, here goes:
The Home World Dimension was created in 1010 A.D. when Serge survives, thus creating two Dimensions of Home & Another World. According to the Armageddon-Branch Theory (http://chronocompendium.com/Term/Salt_for_the_Dead_Sea.html) the only Chrono that exists, exists in Another World, because during Chrono Trigger, that is the only dimension (up until the end of the DS credits).
According to the mechanics of the Time Crash Shift's unique type of time travel, it caused certain points in time to become part of the same region of other points in time. This explains why when the three Dimensional Vortices rip through into Another World (in the CTDS after credits) that they appear in vastly different times, (12000 BC, 1000 AD, & 2300 AD), because from the Dead Sea, these times and regions are all intertwined indistinguishably into the same location. This would mean that the Alabaster, Steel, & Crimson Shades are, in fact the Ghost Children in Chrono Cross seen at a different point in their own contained, aborted timeline. The CC party seeing them when they're younger, and the CT party when they're the same age as their counterparts. Due to the nature of how time does (or doesn't) flow in the Dead Sea, it's difficult if not impossible to tell if there's actually a conceivable passage of time outside of the Dead Sea itself that would determine the appearance of the age of the three Shades. Due to the way that time and space is knitted together, they could conceivable be any or all ages at once, and just manifesting in a particular form at random, since they're just echoes of Marle, Chrono, & Lucca in a region of a Dimension where they don't properly exist.
Because their echoes exist in the Dead Sea, which is a location where discarded information and time are all merged together, this might also explain why they, have such intimate knowledge of so many different things that have and haven't happened, since they exist in many times at once (and none at all). This would also explain why once defeated by their other selves in Chrono Trigger, they merge together and awaked latent powers in themselves- they're connecting the Another World original with their Home World/Dead Sea counterpart that contains knowledge and other effects from being exposed to the Dead Sea Time anomaly.
Anyhow, thoughts?
X 8)
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wait I thought that the Dead Sea was the 2300AD of the timeline where Crono&co don't stop lavos, not the point where discarded timelines go. Thats the DBT. Unless I missed something
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While most entities should fall into the DBT, I think that the section on the Time Crash Shift (http://chronocompendium.com/Term/Salt_for_the_Dead_Sea.html) discusses the anomalies that take place in the Dead Sea. There are also probably some oddities that come along with splitting off a section of a frozen, aborted timeline and the three of them being time travellers not involved in that instance of the timeline, that I'm not too sure I have the full understanding to explain at present.
It's also worth mentioning that within the Dead Sea where we find the Ghosts of Chrono, Marle, & Lucca, because of the Time Crash it contains the Sea of Eden from 12000 BC, Nadia's Bell from 1000 AD, and Chronopolis from 2400 AD. In Chrono Trigger, the Dimensional Rifts that tear open containing the Shades of Chrono, Marle, & Lucca appear at 12000 BC, 1000 AD, & 2300 AD. I'd hypothesize that the Dimensional Rifts are being torn open into Another World during the event of the Time Crash, since it's the main temporal anomaly, and the Time Devourer is still in its early stages.
I'd be stretching to explain WHY the shades of Chrono, Marle, & Lucca aren't swallowed into the DBT, but it may be because Chrono, Marle, & Lucca travel into the DBT to confront the Dream Devourer. Since their aborted timeline selves aren't able to exist alongside their real selves inside of the DBT (related to the Time Bastard theory) (http://chronocompendium.com/Term/Time_Bastard.html), the three of their shades are essentially trapped into a state of partial existance in the Dead Sea, rather than being able to enter the DBT and be consumed.
I feel as though my explanation is a ways from being perfectly correct, but I think that the right pieces are there.
X :cool:
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While most entities should fall into the DBT, I think that the section on the Time Crash Shift (http://chronocompendium.com/Term/Salt_for_the_Dead_Sea.html) discusses the anomalies that take place in the Dead Sea. There are also probably some oddities that come along with splitting off a section of a frozen, aborted timeline and the three of them being time travellers not involved in that instance of the timeline, that I'm not too sure I have the full understanding to explain at present.
It's also worth mentioning that within the Dead Sea where we find the Ghosts of Chrono, Marle, & Lucca, because of the Time Crash it contains the Sea of Eden from 12000 BC, Nadia's Bell from 1000 AD, and Chronopolis from 2400 AD. In Chrono Trigger, the Dimensional Rifts that tear open containing the Shades of Chrono, Marle, & Lucca appear at 12000 BC, 1000 AD, & 2300 AD. I'd hypothesize that the Dimensional Rifts are being torn open into Another World during the event of the Time Crash, since it's the main temporal anomaly, and the Time Devourer is still in its early stages.
I'd be stretching to explain WHY the shades of Chrono, Marle, & Lucca aren't swallowed into the DBT, but it may be because Chrono, Marle, & Lucca travel into the DBT to confront the Dream Devourer. Since their aborted timeline selves aren't able to exist alongside their real selves inside of the DBT (related to the Time Bastard theory) (http://chronocompendium.com/Term/Time_Bastard.html), the three of their shades are essentially trapped into a state of partial existance in the Dead Sea, rather than being able to enter the DBT and be consumed.
I feel as though my explanation is a ways from being perfectly correct, but I think that the right pieces are there.
X :cool:
Ok wait wait wait! It doesn't act like the DBT. The Dead Sea IS the Sea of Eden. It is also the same geographical location of Chronopolis. HOWEVER, in home world Chronopolis doesn't exist because Lavos still destroys the future. So the site of Chronopolis is the dead sea, both of which are in the time 2400AD one where lavos lives(Dead Sea) and another where lavos dies(Chronopolis). As for your theory about the shades, I can't say much. However if I remember correctly we dont have much on them in the encyclopedia.
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It's good to know that there's possibly some merit to my hypothesis. :D Do you know if there's anyone who I might be able to postulate some ideas at, or who might be able to look at the possibility of refining this, so as possibly to expand the listing of information in the encyclopedia on said Ghosts?
X 8)
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Zeality knows everything. However info and theories on the shades are relatively nonexistent. Try the chrono trigger DS discussion.
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It could work, but then there's the issue that Crono and such visit the dimensional vortex before defeating Lavos. Except that they don't, because it's a New Game +...except that they do, because the Gates are still functional (they close after CT).
Since that's all vaporous, then I think we can go ahead and write our own theory in this case, just for a thematic tie-in. So yeah, I think this is pretty cool. We should put it int he next analysis review.
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It could work, but then there's the issue that Crono and such visit the dimensional vortex before defeating Lavos. Except that they don't, because it's a New Game +...except that they do, because the Gates are still functional (they close after CT).
Since that's all vaporous, then I think we can go ahead and write our own theory in this case, just for a thematic tie-in. So yeah, I think this is pretty cool. We should put it int he next analysis review.
Except this paradox is somewhat resolved by the ideas discussed in the main DS-analysis thread- that the world in which the dimensional vortices exist is a new, revised dimension, created through the "initial" defeat of Lavos and his ensuing fusion with Schala(the idea of causality across time eras and dimensions is rather paradoxical and seems to resemble a 5-dimensional model- time within time) , which is why the vortices as well as a portal to the Darkness Beyond Time in which this fusion has already begun are present.
I was playing today, and I thought it was interesting, what Glenn says upon encountering the Steel Shade. "Even if you are the real Chrono, we will not allow you to harm ours", indicating that at the very least, the Steel Shade bears a very strong resemblance to the genuine article.
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It could work, but then there's the issue that Crono and such visit the dimensional vortex before defeating Lavos. Except that they don't, because it's a New Game +...except that they do, because the Gates are still functional (they close after CT).
Since that's all vaporous, then I think we can go ahead and write our own theory in this case, just for a thematic tie-in. So yeah, I think this is pretty cool. We should put it int he next analysis review.
Even if my initial reasoning isn't completely perfect, I'm glad I've got the topic rolling on this again, because it's something that feels more intentional the longer that I look at it; with the temporal locations of the Dimensional Rifts, as well as the specificities of the three characters who appear as Shades. I'll be sure to check out the main CT-DS discussion and give it a read through and see if anything else comes to mind (though perhaps one of you might be able to craft a slightly more solid theory from the little bits and pieces that I've brought up).
X :cool:
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CTDS does an effort to connect CT with CC. They are most likely related.
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Yeah. Got the theory added in full to the Ghost Children page & Salt for the Dead Sea article.
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Except this paradox is somewhat resolved by the ideas discussed in the main DS-analysis thread- that the world in which the dimensional vortices exist is a new, revised dimension, created through the "initial" defeat of Lavos and his ensuing fusion with Schala(the idea of causality across time eras and dimensions is rather paradoxical and seems to resemble a 5-dimensional model- time within time) , which is why the vortices as well as a portal to the Darkness Beyond Time in which this fusion has already begun are present.
I was playing today, and I thought it was interesting, what Glenn says upon encountering the Steel Shade. "Even if you are the real Chrono, we will not allow you to harm ours", indicating that at the very least, the Steel Shade bears a very strong resemblance to the genuine article.
[quote = Magus_Brokenhart]CTDS does an effort to connect CT with CC. They are most likely related.[/quote]
Upon rereading this page, I once again reflected on Glenn's words. Perhaps this indicates more than a mere resemblance to Crono, perhaps Glenn truly senses that it is the real Crono whom they are fighting. If we tie this in with the idea that the party controlled in the vortices is not the most "current" version, but rather a version experiencing the alterations of the original; and if we also incorporate the theory that these Shades are in fact some form of CC's Ghost Children; this could all support the idea that said Ghost Children are indeed future versions (or actual ghosts) of Crono, Marle and Lucca.