Chrono Compendium
Enhasa Halls - Chrono Series Analysis => Characters, Plot, and Themes => Topic started by: Daniel Krispin on March 26, 2005, 02:36:56 am
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Just a quick question I was discussing somewhere a while back regarding Melchior's memory. I'm sure you here will be able to answer this without great difficulty.
Does Melchior, at the fair, remember Crono? Surely he sees Crono when the hero rescues him from his frost-ridden imprisionment on the mountain of woe, and so, when cast to the future should remember him. But that said, does that only change after Crono does the deed, or is it always done? Could Melchior, when he sees Crono at the fair, recognize him, or does this only occur after the events in Zeal. (In other words, is it the sort of twist as, if you happen to know the 'Time's Arrow' episode of Star Trek. Guinan is in the 18th century, so when Picard travels back in time to there, he sees her, and knows all about her, whereas she knows nothing. Inversely, when they 'first' meet in the 23rd century she knows more about him than he does about she. Oh, and I just happen to know the Next Generation episodes. Good show, but I'm not a Trekkie by any measure, just so everyone knows. I'm firmly in the Star Wars camp in the ST/SW conflict. Mandalorians over Klingons and all that.)
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He remenber chrono, but his wise enough to not disrupt the time continuum
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The Melchior at the fair isn't the Melchior that Crono & Co saved on Mt. Woe. As a matter of fact, it's quite possible that the Melchior in Crono's timeline didn't even get sent to Mt. Woe. As seen in the Magus flashback, each of the Gurus were sent to various timelines...
He would not remember Crono because he (the Melchior in Crono's timeline) never encountered Crono.
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Yup. But the weirdest stuff about Melchior is what he says when you free him at Mt. Woe :
Indeed, I am Melchior.
Have we...met before?
More importantly, can you tell me
anything about the Ocean Palace?
"Have we...met before?"... Why the heck does he ask that? :?
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Yup. But the weirdest stuff about Melchior is what he says when you free him at Mt. Woe :
Indeed, I am Melchior.
Have we...met before?
More importantly, can you tell me
anything about the Ocean Palace?
"Have we...met before?"... Why the heck does he ask that? :?
Because whoever is in your party shouts "Melchior!" with surprise at finding him on the Mountain of Woe. When someone shouts your name and you don't recognize them, you might wonder if you've met them before but have just forgotten.
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Yup. But the weirdest stuff about Melchior is what he says when you free him at Mt. Woe :
Indeed, I am Melchior.
Have we...met before?
More importantly, can you tell me
anything about the Ocean Palace?
"Have we...met before?"... Why the heck does he ask that? :?
Because whoever is in your party shouts "Melchior!" with surprise at finding him on the Mountain of Woe. When someone shouts your name and you don't recognize them, you might wonder if you've met them before but have just forgotten.
Also they all say that he fixed the Masamune so they had to repay him. He is a little confused considering that Masamune didn't exsist yet.
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Mmh, anyone from 12,000BC knows that the Guru of Life's name is Melchior though... He shouldn't be surprised and say that...
And he asks this before the party mentions the Masamune...
But yeah maybe I'm delving into it too much, it's probably just a normal phrase.
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Yes, but he is much more confused in the hovel in the Earthbound village when they do mention the Masamune.
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Not to mention, the Zealians tend to refer to them as the Gurus or, at the very least, Guru Melchior (Guru Belthasar, Guru Gaspar)...It seems odd that these people (Crono & Co), whom obviously do not look like either the regular Zealians or Earthbounds (especially in the case of Frog & Robo), should know his name...
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plus, its quiet probable that they sounded like they were calling out to a friend.
anyway, the Melchior that you meet in the fair isnt the same as you meet at Mt. Woe. After Crono and Co. do it, he is the same. let me know if that didnt make sense... In the new timeline created after you save him, he would know.
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The Melchior at the fair is not the same Melchior. He has never seen Crono and his life and has been living in Medina making weapons after he was ported.
Though when you show him the Masamune and the dreamstone, he does say something like "HOW IN THE WORLD DID YOU FIND THIS!?.... Wait, Don't tell me. I don't think my heart could manage it". Something on the lines.
That part was even before the gang went to Zeal. After Zeal and Melchior was teleported, I think he remembers you. He doesn't really state it but he says something like "The Queen has gone mad", "Where did the Black Omen appear from?"
I myself get confused at that last statement. If he was aboard the Ocean Palace, wouldn't he recognise it? Maybe. But he even seems startled so he may still be the same Melchior in Lavos' time line.
Does Melchior ever say "Thank you for rescuing me" in the present? I don't think so. But he does make them Prism weapons going "This will help you in your quest" and "Don't forget about me, i'm here too you know" something on the lines.
Melchior seems very strange.. A guru of Life making weapons to kill..lol.
Even Belthasar never states that he remembers you in 2300 AD after you get the Epoch.
Gaspar never says he saw you there or anything...
Either does Magus... Maybe their original memories stayed intact, just the drama rose in a different way towards the moment that they were gated x.x
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the magus, or here janus, isnt the same janus that predicts Crono's death.
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Even Belthasar never states that he remembers you in 2300 AD after you get the Epoch.
Gaspar never says he saw you there or anything...
Well that would be impossible no matter what. the group never saw either of them at all in Zeal. They were both banished or in hiding before the group even got there.
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The gurus do not have memories of events in the new timeline for the same reason Magus does not have memories of the new timeline. They are time travellers from the original version of Zeal, and they are shielded from changes to the timeline. Regardless of Crono's activities in the past, the gurus will only know the events of the original timeline.
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okay then, under that logic, what happend to the Gurus that DID meet Crono and co? I guess they just ceised to exist.
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Maybe Melchior makes weapons to avoid those who wants to destroy life.
And the Melchior that was in the Ocean Palace and sent to the 1000 A.D had encountered Crono before, in the earthbound village. And there's omeone says that Melchior had gone to the palace to try to stop the Queen to get more energy from Lavos or something like that. Correct me with I'm wrong but I think this way.
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...No, he did not. In the orginal timeline, Crono and Co. weren't even present at the Ocean Palace disaster. So the Melchior that you first meet at the Fair, and later repaired the Masamune, was from the orginal timeline, and never meet Crono. Then, Crono goes on his quest, and meets Melchior. Now, this Melchior would know Crono after he is sent to 1000ad, but not the first one.
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Maybe Melchior makes weapons to avoid those who wants to destroy life.
It's just a small piece of humour from the scenarists. The guru of Life is forced to make weapons to destroy life (Zeal, Magus, Lavos, etc.), the guru of Reason actually lose his reason and the guru of Time is cast at the "end" of time...
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Syeah, poor gurus...
If it's true that the first Melchior who doesn't remember Crono get's replaced by another Melchior who does remember Crono (due to interference in Zeal), does the first Melchior go to the Tesseract or something?
Also, it probably doesn't mean too much but, at the beginning of the game, when you first meet Marle/Nadia and you go to Melchior, he asks if the girl would sell the pendant. Ofcourse he remembers the pendant, but what would he need that for? Or maybe he saw it and understood that they could change history with it (since he was teleported in another timeline with Lavos' power, or someone else's) and tested them on answering "no"? If you say yes, Marle says no, so maybe he knew they would change history and stuff, maybe he knew that he would see them earlier in Zeal next time or something? I guess it probably doesn't mean that much, but anyway ^^!
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I think he says something along the lines "I think this is a treasure of this girl, keep it in a safe place" or something. If he did want it, it'd probably be to remember Schala or something. Melchior would be to weak to handle traveling time, he even says "No, don't tell me, I don't think my heart could handle it" when you give him the Masamune and dreamstone.
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This is what Mechior says:
Oh my! It's...the pendant...! Er, Sorry I can't buy that! It's...far too special! Keep it safe!
It always makes me laugh when I quote the game, everyone is always suprised or yelling. :lol:
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it would be the newer versions of Melchior that get send to the DBT, not the original.
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i don't quite understand how everyone here refers to the DBT and the Tesseract (and quite frankly, i don't remember them from playing CT)
Once the new Melchoir gets sent to 1000AD, then the new melchoir is the one in the new timeline (the new timeline that's created once Crono is sent into the past)
it's been a while since i've played CT, so i dunno whether if you go to melchoir in 1000AD after freeing him in the past if he remembers you or not, but in theory he should, not because Crono had just gone into the past, but because his going into the past sent him into a new timeline
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Well, the DBT and Tesseract references are pulling from CC.
When anything is removed from a timeline, or if a timeline is discarded, it is sent to the Tesseract. For example, the Lavos timeline is sent into the Tesseract at the end of CT, as Lavos was defeated and the timeline became Keystone T-1 (I think I remember that conversion correctly). Also, Schala was pulled into Lavos' pocket dimension during the Ocean Palace disaster, and the subsequent casting of said pocket dimension into the Tesseract took her with it.
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And the confusing Time Bastard theory basically says that only the version of a person the originally did the Time Traveling can time travel.
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i don't really agree with the DBT and tesseract as they're referred to in CC, then, because if two different people time travel, then whose altered timeline becomes reality and whose gets sent to the DBT? i think that all the timelines are present, but since they can't interact with each other w/o time travel, then it's as if the other timelines no longer exist to a bystander on a timeline
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Time traveller immunity and time bastard may be disputed, but the existence of the DBT is canon.
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It's sort of like playing hopscotch. A person known as Ray travels to 600 A.D. After he gets there, someone rewrites history in 1 A.D. to make the world swim in fire. So what happens to Ray? To his perception, he emerged in a lake of fire.
The original Ray did exist in 600 A.D. for awhile, but then person B rewrote time. Thus, he was cast to the DBT, but by the principle of TTI and the Gate effect, "Ray" would still emerge in 600 A.D. in the new timeline that B created. Call him Ray prime.
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It's sort of like playing hopscotch. A person known as Ray travels to 600 A.D. After he gets there, someone rewrites history in 1 A.D. to make the world swim in fire. So what happens to Ray? To his perception, he emerged in a lake of fire.
The original Ray did exist in 600 A.D. for awhile, but then person B rewrote time. Thus, he was cast to the DBT, but by the principle of TTI and the Gate effect, "Ray" would still emerge in 600 A.D. in the new timeline that B created. Call him Ray prime.
I just don't see how the original Ray in 600 A.D. (without the fire) and all the people in the timeline that he exists in are just 'destroyed'. The timeline is eternal, so its being sent to the DBT shouldn't have any affect on the people within it; it's not like the timeline is sent there and halted from ever finishing, but it's just seperate from what Ray prime and person B see. I hope that makes some sense...
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It's sort of like playing hopscotch. A person known as Ray travels to 600 A.D. After he gets there, someone rewrites history in 1 A.D. to make the world swim in fire. So what happens to Ray? To his perception, he emerged in a lake of fire.
The original Ray did exist in 600 A.D. for awhile, but then person B rewrote time. Thus, he was cast to the DBT, but by the principle of TTI and the Gate effect, "Ray" would still emerge in 600 A.D. in the new timeline that B created. Call him Ray prime.
I'm gonna have to disagree with that one. When a time traveler reaches a lower time (such as one AD), a new timeline is created revolving around that point. A new future grows out of it, including any jumps/lack of jumps, and a new past grows behind it (assuming this new future contains someone going back further into the past). After these are created and have gone through all instances of time-travel at a lower time-error than the exit point, the old future and the new past are shunted into the DBT. After that, someone can theoretically leave the timeline at a greater time-error, go back further into the past and prevent the first change.
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um have any of you guys played soul reaver 1&2 it deals with time traveling quite abit and you may find that some of the things that it talks about could be used to make more sense from some of these theorys
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The LoK series has a messed up view of time travel, and confused me way too much.
The way I see Time Traveler's immunity working is like this:
A person in a 1000ad, in Timeline A. This person (Person A) then Time Travels to 600ad, in Timeline A. Now, lets say that someone else (in what would now be Timeline B, due to history nessisarily being changed by Person A's mere presence in 600ad) in Timeline B then Time Travels to a previous date, like 400ad, and then blows up the planet. Since Person A would have Time Traveled previous to Person B, TTI grants him the fate of appearing in space, and having his lungs explode. Now, if Person B had Time Traveled before Person A, Person A would not have had TTI, and therefore would have not existed to time travel.
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Lok had a messed up sense of time travel? to me it actually made alot of sense because it dident contain some flaws that the time travlers immunity theory has
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problems with time traveler's immunity? it seems sound to me... anyway, i'll correct myself from saying it was screwed up to saying that it was confusing.
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its only confusing until you finish the game then it makes sense but before i had finished it i was like WTF? LOK defience also serves to make some of it make a little more sense
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I have a question.. Been quite a while since I played but, how is it Melchoir ends up in the future? I mean, all the gurus as well.. How did they travel in time? If Schala had sent them there in replace of the CT crew in the original timeline, then how in the new one did they get displaced? And if I'm forgetting somethin please correct me..
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I have a question.. Been quite a while since I played but, how is it Melchoir ends up in the future? I mean, all the gurus as well.. How did they travel in time? If Schala had sent them there in replace of the CT crew in the original timeline, then how in the new one did they get displaced? And if I'm forgetting somethin please correct me..
i belive they got sent there when the mammon machine got overloaded by the queen making schala make it draw too much power from lavos...
i think
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Yea, thats right... Same way Magus got to the middle ages.