Chrono Compendium
Enhasa Halls - Chrono Series Analysis => Time, Space, and Dimensions => Topic started by: FaustWolf on November 26, 2008, 01:47:21 pm
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tushantin noted elsewhere that during the version of the Ocean Palace event at which Crono & co. attended, Melchior and Janus were seen being dragged into the same Gate.
The English lines read thus:
ELDER: When the disaster struck, an
eerie, black portal materialized.
Melchior tried to save Janus, but he
was also dragged in.
The Japanese lines read thus:
Elder: At the time of the great disaster,
something like a black distortion appeared......
Bosch, trying to save Jyaki-sama, who was
about to be sucked in, was also.....
The Japanese version is slightly ambiguous -- it doesn't say whether Melchior was dragged into the same gate as Janus, but the intimation is still there that Melchior tried to catch Janus' sleeve as it were, and got sucked into the same portal. Only one black Gate is mentioned in both versions.
We have something of a conundrum here. Either it is possible that a single Gate can send multiple people to different points along a time axis, or little Janus is hiding in a closet somewhere in Melchior's house in 1000AD.
However, the former must be true by virtue of the fact that people still mention Magus in 600AD, and Slash/Flea/Ozzie still remember Magus as if nothing played out differently.
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This is considered the basis of Time Bastard, isn't it? Melchior and Janus still ending in the right times is from TTI.
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Yeah. The Black Gate merely takes them to the Darkness Beyond Time.
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But that still doesn't explain the latter transportation and effect on the timeline and dimension. Regardless, the timeline of Crono & co interruption at the Ocean Palace was not a discarded timeline. However, Magus still remembers his version of the past where Melchoir and him were pulled in through seperate gates.
We're not really dealing with a Time Paradox as much. Maybe, but it's still.... buggy.
In any case, the timeline would be altered, even if it's a minor thing, and it is because of Crono's and Prophet's interruption that the Black Omen appeared.
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As soon as the Prophet stepped foot in 12000 B.C., the timeline was fundamentally altered.
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As soon as the Prophet stepped foot in 12000 B.C., the timeline was fundamentally altered.
Indeed. And that would mean that the new timeline may or may not have Magus at 600 AD. But if Melchoir was sent elsewhere, then Janus must have been transported there?
Ah, nevermind, I'm probably thinking too much.
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Do you understand Time Traveler's Immunity and Time Bastard?
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I wasn't really thinking about our version of Time Traveler's Immunity and Time Bastard, but was rather referring to CT and CC's version of Time and Dimension traveling. But regardless, nevermind...
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Magus recalls the incident (as it originally happened) and we see them being dragged into separate gates. A villager recalls the incident as it happened this time around, and mentions them being dragged into the same gate.
Since Crono and Co. changed history, the timeline is rewritten and Melchoir wouldn't be protected by TTI. But Magus is protected because hes outside of the rewritten timeline. In other words, Magus remembers the incident as he describes it and Melchoir when you first meet him in the game would as well. But now Melchoir will remember the incident as the villager describes it. The gate must have sent them to different times, much like the gate in Magus's Castle sent 3 to 65,000,000BC and 1 to 12,000BC.
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Oh snaaaap, I hadn't even thought about the Gate at Magus' castle, there's an even more concrete example. I suppose the Entity can send people wherever it likes on a whim, even snatching people from Lavos' Gates and spreading them out if necessary.
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Well, there may be a difference in the nature of how these black gates work, since they are temporary anomalies, or certainly at least not sustained as the other gates that are used as set gateways between two time periods. Perhaps all of these holes are just different entrances to the same 'gate', in which case 4 (Or more) people have entered into it, and thus they would end up at the End of Time. From there, each person may have simply just wandered (separate from each other) the area and into the first exit point they found, save Gaspar would 'stayed' put. The same thing may have happened at the gate that was formed in Magus' castle. Course, rather than simply wandering, perhaps Gaspar then could've pushed each person into the corresponding gate path.
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Magus recalls the incident (as it originally happened) and we see them being dragged into separate gates. A villager recalls the incident as it happened this time around, and mentions them being dragged into the same gate.
Since Crono and Co. changed history, the timeline is rewritten and Melchoir wouldn't be protected by TTI. But Magus is protected because hes outside of the rewritten timeline. In other words, Magus remembers the incident as he describes it and Melchoir when you first meet him in the game would as well. But now Melchoir will remember the incident as the villager describes it. The gate must have sent them to different times, much like the gate in Magus's Castle sent 3 to 65,000,000BC and 1 to 12,000BC.
Actually, that gate would be Time Bastard in action, since in these new events, they weren't in the palace to be dragged into the gates that will sent them to the corresponding eras. I'm sure wherever Belthasar and Gaspar were hiding while all that happened, they too were dragged into black gates like the former two.
Melchior back in 1,000 A.D. will still not know of these new events since he too is like Magus, he only knows about the original events. All four time traveled when it originally happened, meaning they will always appear in those years (except Gaspar by being sent to the EoT will only be once) no matter what future changes are done.
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Magus recalls the incident (as it originally happened) and we see them being dragged into separate gates. A villager recalls the incident as it happened this time around, and mentions them being dragged into the same gate.
Since Crono and Co. changed history, the timeline is rewritten and Melchoir wouldn't be protected by TTI. But Magus is protected because hes outside of the rewritten timeline. In other words, Magus remembers the incident as he describes it and Melchoir when you first meet him in the game would as well. But now Melchoir will remember the incident as the villager describes it. The gate must have sent them to different times, much like the gate in Magus's Castle sent 3 to 65,000,000BC and 1 to 12,000BC.
Actually, that gate would be Time Bastard in action, since in these new events, they weren't in the palace to be dragged into the gates that will sent them to the corresponding eras. I'm sure wherever Belthasar and Gaspar were hiding while all that happened, they too were dragged into black gates like the former two.
Melchior back in 1,000 A.D. will still not know of these new events since he too is like Magus, he only knows about the original events. All four time traveled when it originally happened, meaning they will always appear in those years (except Gaspar by being sent to the EoT will only be once) no matter what future changes are done.
I see the Compendium states that Janus and the gurus were sent to the DBT at the same time their counterparts time travelled. Time Bastard saves the series from the duplicate problem and such but I see a problem: If Crono and Co. change history so that person X no longer has the opportunity to time travel, why is Person X's time travel preserved? Lets say that Crono meets Joe in 1100AD and learns that Joe will be sucked into a black gate in his kitchen 1002AD June 1st 8:00pm. So, Crono goes and finds Joe at 7:55pm outside his house and starts a conversation to stall entrance into the kitchen. By what I'm reading here you guys are saying that at 8:00pm Joe will vanish in front of Crono because a counterpart who time travelled on a timeline that was sent to the DBT did so at 8:00pm?
Crono A remembers Joe from 1100AD because his experiences are protected by TTI. His counterpart who until now has done everything the same way as Crono will reach 1100AD and not find Joe. Whenever Crono A time travelled to 990AD from 1100AD is when Crono B will go the the DBT. All I see is a perspective issue.
Crono A is preserved because he is outside of the affected timeline. He is what changes the future.
Crono B is not preserved and is sent to the DBT because he is inside the affected timeline. He is the future that is changed.
Joe A is NOT preserved because he is inside the the affected timeline. He is the future that is changed.
Joe B IS preserved because he is not in the affected timeline. He is what changes the future.
If Crono went back in time and threw a brick through Joe's window the day before Joe time travelled, would the new 1100AD Joe remember the incident? Yes. The old timeline was sent to the DBT so that when Crono returns to Joe he will find that this version remembers the brick.
Let's say Paul, a mischievous time traveller, met Crono and Marle in 1002AD. Paul is also from 1000AD but started his time travelling adventures "after" (referring to Time Error, so Paul would see the new 2300AD if he chose to go there) Crono had saved the world. Then he went back to 1000AD and slipped Marle something in her morning coffee so that she could NOT go to the fair and meet Crono. This means she can't time travel - but the Compendium holds that this drugged Marle will disappear the exact point of time that the original Marle time travelled, thus foiling Paul's plans.
really guys? c'mon :(
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While not entirely seeing your point, I do understand enough to answer you.
About X's time travel being preserved, it's because the way time travel works. When one time travels, he is exiting the time line to enter it again at the desired destination (at least that's what I think how it works). So, if X travels 10 years into the future, he is skipping 10 years of the continuity of time, at least, to the time line's perspective.
So, if the year of destination is 2008, then even if X of the new time line created by another time traveler can't time travel in 1998, the X who did travel will appear in 2008 of the new time line. The fact that they are both from different time lines makes it possible, they aren't the same individual, no matter how identical they are.
Same thing works for traveling to the past, X will still appear regardless of what happens to the new X in the future.
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While not entirely seeing your point, I do understand enough to answer you.
About X's time travel being preserved, it's because the way time travel works. When one time travels, he is exiting the time line to enter it again at the desired destination (at least that's what I think how it works). So, if X travels 10 years into the future, he is skipping 10 years of the continuity of time, at least, to the time line's perspective.
So, if the year of destination is 2008, then even if X of the new time line created by another time traveler can't time travel in 1998, the X who did travel will appear in 2008 of the new time line. The fact that they are both from different time lines makes it possible, they aren't the same individual, no matter how identical they are.
Same thing works for traveling to the past, X will still appear regardless of what happens to the new X in the future.
lol sorry I do have a somewhat disjointed way of explaining things. I completely understand what you are saying but I still see a problem. Maybe I'm missing something easy but...
Okay this is what I believe the Compendium is saying in regards to Melchoir and the Ocean Palace incident:
Person A exists in Timeline X
Person A goes to Timeline X'
History changes
Person A now goes to Timeline X''
Person A' goes to DBT/ Timeline X' goes to DBT
Here is what I am saying:
Person A exists in Timeline X
Person A goes to Timeline X'
History changes
Person A' goes to Timeline X''
Person A goes to DBT/ Timeline X' goes to DBT
There is the problem: Person A went to Timeline X'. But that destination no longer exists.
I may be mistaken, but my understanding is that because the Chronoverse is 5D, changes in time happen in a separate, "real time" (Time Error right?).
Person A can't travel to Timeline X' and X''. Much like how Crono can't travel to the new and old 2300AD at the same time.
old 2300AD only exists until Crono defeats Lavos and new 2300AD won't exist until then.
I just think that Time Bastard doesn't need to be applied here. Time is simply rewritten. No duplicates are created.
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There is the problem: Person A went to Timeline X'. But that destination no longer exists.
Time travelers don't choose which time line to travel to, they always appear in the current one.
Here is what I am saying:
Person A exists in Timeline X
Person A goes to Timeline X'
History changes
Person A' goes to Timeline X''
Person A goes to DBT/ Timeline X' goes to DBT
It is wrong saying it is A' going to X'', as he will get TBed. The destination of A would just change from X' to X''. He is only choosing the time to travel to. From which time line it will not matter since he is only traveling to the year.
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This is considered the basis of Time Bastard, isn't it? Melchior and Janus still ending in the right times is from TTI.
It is a basis of Time Bastard, correct. However, just because it fits Time Bastard doesn't mean Time Bastard is what really happened.
It is considered to be proof of Time Bastard because it is unusual. Only black gate in the game, right? Well, maybe. Go take a look at the script and tell me how often the color of ANY gate is identified. I'll give you a hint, it only happens once. Now go take a look at a gate again, particularly a closed gate. Black is a viable description of it. Thus we don't really know if the gate that takes Melchior and Janus is actually different than any other.
But that is a minor point; it could still suck them into the DBT. However, we have no way to know if it actually took them to the DBT or if it took them to 580 and 980, respectively (at least, I seem to recal Magus had aged roughly 20 years in the Middle Ages).
Time Bastard exists to solve the problem of duplicates. Alas again, there is no evidence that duplicates are a problem that needs to be solved. At Time Y and Time Error X Crono and Marle go to see Lucca's telepod. At Time Y+1 and Error X+1, Marle gets sucked back into the past, creating a new timeline in which Marle exists in 600 AD. There is no indication as of yet that the changes to the timeline are substantial enough to change 1000AD to the point where Crono wouldn't follow her. Thus, at Time Y+2 and Time Error X+2, Crono steps back and a new timeline is created. The new, duplicate, Crono and Marle go to see Lucca's telepod at Time Y Time Error X+2. The new Marle Disappears at Time Y+1 Time Error X+3, and so on. In other words, the originals and duplicates would always be out of sync with one another and as such meeting would be impossible. Thus, Time Bastard is unnecessary to explain why there aren't hordes of duplicates running around; there may well be hordes of them, all existing just barely out of sync with each other. It is a theory that explains the state of the world, but it does so no better or worse than how one should expect to find the world without it.
Time Bastard potentially creates new problems as well. Crono steps back into 65,000,000 BC, changing the timeline. Old timeline gets discarded to the DBT. Except, if this is before Lavos fell, then the Lavos heading towards Earth gets discarded to the DBT. In fact, if Crono just existing in the past changes the past, then for each additional second he is there, another timeline should get discarded in favor of a timeline with him in the past for that one additional second. Of course, time doesn't pass in nice round seconds; there are 1,000,000,000 nanoseconds in a second. That is one billion timelines discarded. Except that time doesn't pass in nice round nanoseconds either. Currently, it is believed that Plank Time is the shortest interval of time possible. That is significantly less than a Yactosecond, which is itself only one septillionth of a second. In other words, significantly more than 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 timelines are being discarded every second that Crono is in the past. Or, in other words, the DBT is being filled at a rate of significantly more than 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 lavoses for every second Crono is in 65,000,000 BC before Lavos falls. Certainly this is possible, but that is a strangely wasteful universe. Indeed, in such a universe, there is a near infinite number of discarded Lavoses in the DBT yet only one ever got uppity at having its future stolen.
Likewise, there are a near-infinite number of Schalas in the DBT. Which means, there is a near infinite number of Time Devourers. Seems rather unlikely that only one should ever form.
Not impossible, mind you, just… improbable.
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Isn't the theory that the Time Devourer formed because Schala fell into the DBT, rather than being discarded?
I looked at the Time Bastard article. Will plain old time travel take care of keeping the past version and the future version of an object?
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There is the problem: Person A went to Timeline X'. But that destination no longer exists.
Time travelers don't choose which time line to travel to, they always appear in the current one.
Here is what I am saying:
Person A exists in Timeline X
Person A goes to Timeline X'
History changes
Person A' goes to Timeline X''
Person A goes to DBT/ Timeline X' goes to DBT
It is wrong saying it is A' going to X'', as he will get TBed. The destination of A would just change from X' to X''. He is only choosing the time to travel to. From which time line it will not matter since he is only traveling to the year.
1. Time Traveler Sayid Locke goes back to 600 A.D. 2. Sayid Locke plants a tree in fertile ground, and goes back to the present. 3. Time Traveler Ethan Eko changes prehistory to make the world have a desert climate.
This is pretty much what bothers me. It may just be the wording. But it seems like Sayid appears in Time Error X+1 to plant the tree, sees fertile ground, plants the tree, and returns to the present - so hes now in Time Error X+2.
Then Eko at Time Error X+3 creates the desert climate further in the past.
The question is: did Sayid ever see the fertile area? If yes, then TTI and Time Bastard work. If no, TTI doesn't.
Let's look at no:
He enters 600AD at Time Error X+1 and finds a desert, even though the desert wasn't made yet. (TE X+3)
The memories he should have had at TE X+2 of a fertile area are now replaced which means no TTI
OR even worse, if he never had those memories because he found himself in a desert even before it was made,
..................predestiny =(
Lets look at yes:
He sees a fertile area, plants the tree and then leaves. Eko changes history. Sayid still remembers seeing the fertile area and planting the tree, even if in the new timeline the tree doesn't exist. What happens to the Sayid who sees only the desert? He should be sent to the DBT upon reentering the gate to the present according to Time Bastard. This can happen because even though Time is patched with new info, Time Error isn't. The desert event and the "second" travel to 600AD by Sayid both happen further along the Time Error Axis than the "first" travel. The original Sayid is separated from these changes right?
^^The above would support what the Compendium thinks about Melchior. He travelled, time was changed, it didn't matter and he still remembers things the way things originally happened but...
The Article's answer?
Now, when Sayid comes through the portal, will he see fertile ground? Certainly not; he'll observe the desert, as the timeline containing fertile ground has been relegated to the Darkness Beyond Time.
What? I see a fight between TTI, TB, and TE. If Time Error can act as part of a coordinate system then the same version of Sayid is sent to two "places". On the TE axis, one exists "first", then another replaces it? No the second one should be sent to the DBT, not the first. Where is the immunity?
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So, if the year of destination is 2008, then even if X of the new time line created by another time traveler can't time travel in 1998, the X who did travel will appear in 2008 of the new time line. The fact that they are both from different time lines makes it possible, they aren't the same individual, no matter how identical they are.
That's the same thing I felt. If Time Bastard TTI are real stuff, then that would mean that X's past or future self aren't his self. They're entirely different individual. It is quite easy to understand that if the future can be changed then then Time's Bastard theory would be true. But that would mean that if the past is altered in any way due to time travel then a paradox is caused as a result. And TTI can't be right if the person's self or those people in that timeline are the same as the ones existed in the original timeline. On the contrary, (as Akira Toriyama himself used a theory in his story) there are several realities, and not just one. Time Travel indeed takes place, but it's impossible to meet one's self and change something of that without having to remember anything. You are you, but not really you who you know.
However, there is one possibility. When a Time Traveler named X escapes his reality to go to the past he is unable to reverse time, but he does visit an entirely different reality who's timeline seems to be repeating the same things as X's original timeline. And it is this timeline where X's presence effects the flow of time. Bring another chess piece on board and the outcome is different than supposed to be. That is how Chronoverse works. However, it IS possible to visit that very timeline's future without traveling to yet another reality. But once done, you can't go back. If you do travel back to the past then you enter yet another reality. It's like taking a detour when you can't break a wall and ending up someplace else. The people you meet and you think you know are not actually the same people as your original timeline. As explained in Tsubasa Chronicles, people in different dimensions have the same soul but are entirely different people.
In this case what the Compendium is forgetting is that another Timeline exists that we don't know of. The Time Traveler's Actuality Clock. It travels with the body, mind and soul. When a X does time travel, he experiences an entirely different world, but his own body remains the same. If he's wearing a watch and time traveling, then the watch moves forward as if nothing has been tampered with time, just as the traveler's mind and body. Meaning, in a way, there is another force and flow that he cannot reverse and he continues aging. This is, what I call, a Perpendicular TimeFlow that flows and refracts throughout dimensions and time. Even if he does reverse and fast-forward time, the flow that he cannot escape is TTAC. And this TTAC contradicts TTI, because this TTAC is actually a proof of a Time Traveler's existence. And for a Time Traveler, there are ways sideways, but not back or forth. The only way is one way: Up.
I just think that Time Bastard doesn't need to be applied here. Time is simply rewritten. No duplicates are created.
I second to your first half, but partly one the second. It is true that time is simply rewritten. But it isn't necessarily your original time that you're rewriting.
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I've been cruising the Compendium for awhile now, but I never registered with the forums because I never really had anything important to say until now.
I second to your first half, but partly one the second. It is true that time is simply rewritten. But it isn't necessarily your original time that you're rewriting.
This is actually how I originally thought time travel in CT and CC worked after playing those games, before coming across the Compendium. I assumed that there were an infinite number of realities, and when a time traveler travels into the past, he is actually visiting a parallel reality which future he is changing, while if he travels into the future he is just visiting the future in his own reality. This would neatly account for many paradoxes of time travel, such as the grandfather paradox, since you couldn't go back in time to kill YOUR grandfather, you would be killing the grandfather of another you.
Nevermind the obvious glaring question of "OK, so why doesn't another you from another reality time travel into YOUR reality and kill YOUR grandfather before you have a chance to do the same?". In an infinite universe with infinite realities, you would expect this to happen and a paradox you would have once more.
Then I came across the Compendium and TTI, TB, and TE all make much more sense. The fact remains that in the Chronoverse, it is stated that time travel into the past sends that future to the Darkness Beyond Time. This directly states that time travellers are not traversing realities when they time travel, but visiting the past of their own timeline and rewriting history. End of story.
When the story of CT was written, I doubt they planned to include within the story deep philosophical time travelling concepts like TTI or TB. However, you cannot have a story about time travelling without similar concepts having to be true, otherwise the story would be riddled with paradoxes.
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However, there is one possibility. When a Time Traveler named X escapes his reality to go to the past he is unable to reverse time, but he does visit an entirely different reality who's timeline seems to be repeating the same things as X's original timeline. And it is this timeline where X's presence effects the flow of time. Bring another chess piece on board and the outcome is different than supposed to be. That is how Chronoverse works.
I agree with you mostly here. But the wording "different reality" scares me a bit.
However, it IS possible to visit that very timeline's future without traveling to yet another reality. But once done, you can't go back. If you do travel back to the past then you enter yet another reality.
This appears to work, but there is a problem. Remember that the Entity started this whole process at the end of its life - sometime beyond 2300AD. The terms "past" and "future" are related to a "present". In your example, you assume that the game takes place in the present, but it technically doesn't. Lets say that Joe was in a pocket dimension and he decided to focus on the absolute present - say 2600AD.
Now I will try your example: X in Reality Y , 1000AD goes to 600AD creating the new Reality Y' and X messes with stuff to severely change history.
Joe in 2600AD observes these changes. no problem
Then X in Reality Y' travels to 1995AD (his perceived future).
In your example, X would still be in Reality Y' , but in 1995AD instead. But to Joe, who is in the true present,
It is now Reality Y'' because all X did was change the past twice.
Since Crono and Co. only time travel "in the past" relative to the Entity's dying, every "future" they go to is also an alternate reality - according to your basic idea anyway.
If there is an absolute present, can you travel to the future. not sure - but probably not since there is no predestiny in Chrono Trigger.
before coming across the Compendium. I assumed that there were an infinite number of realities, and when a time traveler travels into the past, he is actually visiting a parallel reality which future he is changing, while if he travels into the future he is just visiting the future in his own reality.
This directly states that time travellers are not traversing realities when they time travel, but visiting the past of their own timeline and rewriting history.
Your comments about time travel in the past appear to contradict eachother.
This would neatly account for many paradoxes of time travel, such as the grandfather paradox, since you couldn't go back in time to kill YOUR grandfather, you would be killing the grandfather of another you.
Yes...in a sense. But its not a you in another, preexisting reality. Absolute Present is important. Assuming all of the realities you reference exist in the same point in time (such as 2008AD), then shifting back in time and into another reality in ( say from 1991AD to 1947AD ) to kill "your" grandfather would cause a paradox in that reality.
However, you cannot have a story about time travelling without similar concepts having to be true, otherwise the story would be riddled with paradoxes.
Very true. That's why I don't think this is a waste of time pretty much. Plus its good exercise for the brain.
In this case what the Compendium is forgetting is that another Timeline exists that we don't know of. The Time Traveler's Actuality Clock. It travels with the body, mind and soul. When a X does time travel, he experiences an entirely different world, but his own body remains the same. If he's wearing a watch and time traveling, then the watch moves forward as if nothing has been tampered with time, just as the traveler's mind and body. Meaning, in a way, there is another force and flow that he cannot reverse and he continues aging. This is, what I call, a Perpendicular TimeFlow that flows and refracts throughout dimensions and time. Even if he does reverse and fast-forward time, the flow that he cannot escape is TTAC. And this TTAC contradicts TTI, because this TTAC is actually a proof of a Time Traveler's existence. And for a Time Traveler, there are ways sideways, but not back or forth. The only way is one way: Up.
I have issues with both TTI and TTAC. And its all because of Time Error. The thing is, Time Error is useful, as it makes the most sense out of everything I've seen at the Compendium. The problem with TTI and TTAC is that they take a "personal point of view". Crono travels back and forth - and none of these changes cannot affect him because his timeline has long since been dismissed to the DBT. However, only a fragment has been dismissed. So....
Crono travels back to let's say 200AD and changes things at Time Error X.
Marle travels back to 100AD at Time Error X+1, "after" Crono time travelled. Then changes history so Crono's family line dies out early.
Marle will recall Crono and his family line as she always has. When she returns to 1000AD at Time Error X+2 she will see that here, Crono never existed.
The answer was in the game all along. Remember the Marle Grandfather paradox issue?
Let's backtrack first. Marle travels in the past and convinces Frog to write a famous book. A new timeline is created in which the Marle of 1000AD would know about the book. When the timeline reaches the point where the old Marle would have time travelled, the new Marle will be sent to the DBT. Now back the the grandfather paradox here. Queen Leene dies - a new timeline is created in which Marle never exists.
BECAUSE NO MARLE IS EVER BORN IN THE NEW TIMELINE TO REPLACE THE ORIGINAL, THE ORIGINAL MARLE IS SENT TO THE DBT.
"omg but she didn't disappear instantly why o why - no loop where crono could not have met her because she never existed omg"
yea. I have an answer. When Marle goes back in time she reaches 600AD, Time Error X+1.
Quoting Thought:
In fact, if Crono just existing in the past changes the past, then for each additional second he is there, another timeline should get discarded in favor of a timeline with him in the past for that one additional second.
Swap the word "second" for moment. That means when Marle travels back in time, she first creates a future in which she still goes to the fair with Crono and Crono sees her vanish into a gate. Then he follows her into the past. Later on, when she gets found and waits in the castle she starts a countdown of sorts.
My guess is that when she reaches the point where Queen Leene would have been saved (but now wasn't) Marle will vanish into the DBT. I think of it as a "point of certainty". Up to that point, Queen Leene was not dead and therefore the Guardia line was preserved. If Time allows her to exist beyond the "point of certainty", Leene could die and that would create a paradox. So Time preserves itself by eliminating the unnecessary part of the problem - Marle.
So how would Crono remember her? Simple. The Crono and Marle that we see by the end of the 600AD aren't the same ones we started with.
Marle A in Timeline X, Time Error Y+1 enters gate leading to Timeline (X-n)', Time Error Y+2
Crono A and Lucca A are sent to the DBT along with Timeline X.
Crono B in the below timeline/time error, witnesses Marle B enter the gate. She gets TBed.
Crono B in Timeline X' Time Error Y+3 enters gate leading to Timeline (X-n)'' Time Error Y+4 to follow her.
Crono B can never see Marle A or B - when the countdown finished "A" entered the DBT and "B" was TBed.
Crono B actually sees Marle C of the new timeline he created by travelling there.
Marle C is created when Crono B travels to the past, to a new timeline where the countdown to the point of certainty has yet to finish.
All later Cronos that follow him into the past are TBed.
Marle C is then sent to the DBT at the same time Marle A was. This prompts Crono to save Leene. He does - and at the castle, after the rescue he creates a new "point of certainty", thus Marle C returns. Well, maybe its Marle C -- I can't really be sure of that.
So I guess a part of my theory is that your time travel at Time Error N protects you until someone screws you over at
Time Error N+1. TTI needs some work. Time Bastard is awesome.
Whoever read this long post - sorry and hope you enjoyed it :D
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Now I will try your example: X in Reality Y , 1000AD goes to 600AD creating the new Reality Y' and X messes with stuff to severely change history.
Joe in 2600AD observes these changes. no problem
Then X in Reality Y' travels to 1995AD (his perceived future).
In your example, X would still be in Reality Y' , but in 1995AD instead. But to Joe, who is in the true present,
It is now Reality Y'' because all X did was change the past twice.
Actually, X going to 1,995 will not create Y'', but Joe entering 2600 will. Entering the time line from an outside location like a pocket dimension will have the same effect as someone traveling to the past. It counts as a change, but actually, it will only be from the perspective from everyone in any future point after the individual entered the time line. It's all about from which point of view you are watching. In cases like this, there isn't a true present point.
In the above case, it will be:
Y will cover from ??? to 600, point where X appeared from 1000 of Y. Anything after 600 of Y will go to the DBT.
Y' will cover from 600 to 2600, point where Joe entered the time line. In 1995, X will appear from the past, but no change is done. Anything after 2600 of Y' will go to the DBT.
Y'' will cover from 2600 to ???, if no other changes are made.
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Now I will try your example: X in Reality Y , 1000AD goes to 600AD creating the new Reality Y' and X messes with stuff to severely change history.
Joe in 2600AD observes these changes. no problem
Then X in Reality Y' travels to 1995AD (his perceived future).
In your example, X would still be in Reality Y' , but in 1995AD instead. But to Joe, who is in the true present,
It is now Reality Y'' because all X did was change the past twice.
Actually, X going to 1,995 will not create Y'', but Joe entering 2600 will. Entering the time line from an outside location like a pocket dimension will have the same effect as someone traveling to the past. It counts as a change, but actually, it will only be from the perspective from everyone in any future point after the individual entered the time line. It's all about from which point of view you are watching. In cases like this, there isn't a true present point.
In the above case, it will be:
Y will cover from ??? to 600, point where X appeared from 1000 of Y. Anything after 600 of Y will go to the DBT.
Y' will cover from 600 to 2600, point where Joe entered the time line. In 1995, X will appear from the past, but no change is done. Anything after 2600 of Y' will go to the DBT.
Y'' will cover from 2600 to ???, if no other changes are made.
Well, I meant he observes the future from the pocket dimension to avoid that problem. My mistake :)
Instead of a pocket dimension, think of Joe as an omniscient observer. Joe represents us looking at cause and effect without changing the results.
Y will cover ??? to 600. Agreed.
Y' will cover 600 to 2600. No - Joe isn't entering the timeline anymore. Joe is just observing this point in time (the present).
Y' will cover 600 to 1995. Where X changes the past again. This changes the timeline because originally, (from 2600AD's point of view) X did not go to 1995.
Y'' will cover 1995 - and onward. Joe, observing, but not apart of, 2600AD would see the shift.
For me, Time (4D) is a snapshot of 3D space - I guess like a flip book. I think of Time Error (5D), in a similar fashion. Only it takes a snap shot of 3D space + Time.
If Crono running in a field was the entirety of 3D space - one moment of Time would him being in the middle of some running motion. One moment of Time Error would be all of his motions at once - like seeing all the pages of the flip book at the same time.
The way we see how all of these events and examples "happen again" is different, so we keep coming up with different results.
I see that all Time values for Time Error N occur.
Within those values some entity stimulates change at Time X, creating Time Error N+1
Then, Time Error N+1 will play out all new values from (the new) Time X' onwards (but at once).
An entity within Time Error N+1 creates a change at Time X', creating Time Error N+2
Then, Time Error N+2 will play out all the new values from (the new) Time X'' and blah blah - the process continues until no more changes are made.
Edit: Mixed up some wording.
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:lol: Of course I enjoyed it, Eske, what did you expect? By the way. TTI does need some work, but in a way TTAC actually preserves a Time Traveler's memories, because he cannot really reverse that flow. Not even Time Traveler's can. Bah I sound stupid.
In a case, Time Travelling and Dimension Travelling have a little resemblance. Both travel across dimensions, but where Time Travelling to dimensions can be done via "cause and effect" and a one way trip, specific Dimension Travel is actually simple dimension travel to specific dimensions and not time. (And utilizing the power of both would be supahhhh!!)
As for the theory, you are correct. But I have taken thoughts on my own theory as I explained earlier as well. But what intrigues me is your theory of TB and matter-replacement anomaly (that is, a Time Traveler going back into the past of another reality, changing it and calling the timeline his own since he cannot go back and the missing Time Traveler in THAT timeline).
By the way, in case you remember, in Chrono Cross there has been rumors (or confirmed facts) that Another World was the original reality where Serge was to die, but Belthasar put Project Kid into action and sent Kid back in time to save Serge. And when Kid arrived back in time (which was a reality exactly similar to but entirely different to the one she came from) she saved Serge, making the future of that reality contrast to Another World. As to how she got back to her own reality? We owe it all to Kid's pendant and Belthasar. :lol:
Another theory: Darkness beyond time is obviously outside any timeline, perhaps even the Perpendicular Time Flow. All dimensions mirror one another (note: in CTDS they say that the timeline and sort they're experiencing is a dream of the Entity) may or may not be exactly alike. Actually, they may be exactly alike until a Time Traveler screws it up. xD If something "were" to originate from the DBT and through the gates then it would likely multiply and enter all dimensions at once. But if something were to come from a particular dimension its signature would be bound to that dimension. Or perhaps, all realities that are "exactly alike" one dimension, and one substance/person enters the DBT then there are likely to be infinite of them. In such a case, the mirrors are actually merged into one individual.
Meaning: Multiple Schalas in different dimensions and are hurled into the DBT. However, upon reaching DBT there's only one Schala.
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Y will cover ??? to 600. Agreed.
Y' will cover 600 to 2600. No - Joe isn't entering the timeline anymore. Joe is just observing this point in time (the present).
Y' will cover 600 to 1995. Where X changes the past again. This changes the timeline because originally, (from 2600AD's point of view) X did not go to 1995.
Y'' will cover 1995 - and onward. Joe, observing, but not apart of, 2600AD would see the shift.
If he just observes then Y'' will never come into existence. Traveling to the future isn't the same as traveling to the past. Besides, from 2600's point of view, X just disappeared and reappeared some hundreds of years later, there isn't a time line sent to the DBT and another one taking it's place.
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Swap the word "second" for moment. That means when Marle travels back in time, she first creates a future in which she still goes to the fair with Crono and Crono sees her vanish into a gate. Then he follows her into the past. Later on, when she gets found and waits in the castle she starts a countdown of sorts.
My guess is that when she reaches the point where Queen Leene would have been saved (but now wasn't) Marle will vanish into the DBT. I think of it as a "point of certainty". Up to that point, Queen Leene was not dead and therefore the Guardia line was preserved. If Time allows her to exist beyond the "point of certainty", Leene could die and that would create a paradox. So Time preserves itself by eliminating the unnecessary part of the problem - Marle.
So how would Crono remember her? Simple. The Crono and Marle that we see by the end of the 600AD aren't the same ones we started with.
First, that assumes time is brittle. That is, any change in the past (including just standing around in the past) changes the timeline completely, shoving everything that was into the DBT. I'd reject such a notion for the stated reasons; there are a near-infinite number of timelines in the DBT at the end of just a few minutes of gameplay.
Second, it depends on when Crono left if Marle ever existed or not. Now, we know that time changes as soon as it is changed (an odd thing to say, but it merits being said). That is, a change in the timeline effects all of time instantly. So, Marle merely being sent into the past was not what changed time. Crono being sent into the past is not what changed time. It is only after Lucca arrives in 600AD that Marle disappears, indicating that time wasn't changed until all three of them were in 600AD. TTI would thus indicate that Crono and Lucca's memories of Marle would have been preserved.
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It wasn't written down, but GrayLensman's intent was that when Crono goes back to 65,000,000 B.C., the old timeline is discarded, and the flow of time follows from Crono's perspective with an undetermined future. His presence isn't causing future timelines to be discarded every nanosecond; rather, his presence is now the cutting edge of history, with the future indeterminate. Only one timeline gets discarded.
There's still the issue of the DBT violating conservation of EMT, which'll be looked at in that other thread... :(
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I got lost reading a bunch of that, because it seemed to go off on a tangent for me. The original question was how did one gate during the Ocean Palace Incident suck two different people in it to two different times. Doesn't the simple answer to this go back to TTI? There's that statement in TTI that says a time traveler's EXIT from a gate is preserved, not the entrance.
And of course, the thought so far as I've read in this thread is that the gate sends them to the DBT. When a gate takes a time traveler like this at the appointed time (following rules of TB), why couldn't the gate take them in, close, and then right as they are about to exit, they get TB'd?
Meaning, if you were the new Janus, you'd get sucked into the gate, travel through the gate, and upon reaching the threshold of the exit side of the gate, you'd be TB'd. Not before, not during, but right at the gate threshold.
I thought the reason to explain the graphical differences for the gates was because these were created by Lavos (originally). The blue and red ones were made by the entity. A gate created by time due to TTI would therefore exhibit the same setup (the Crono in the 1000 AD where Marle doesn't exist would still be sucked in by a blue gate, for example).
And the main thing I was going to point out is that Lavos' gates are short lived, but that probably means that there is a greater amount of control. Something along the lines of he is able to control where the gates go, but he gets that control at the expense of duration. Less control, longer gate existence. Sorta like burning through the power at a rapid rate.
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Meaning, if you were the new Janus, you'd get sucked into the gate, travel through the gate, and upon reaching the threshold of the exit side of the gate, you'd be TB'd. Not before, not during, but right at the gate threshold.
No, since TTI-protected Janus is the one who should emerge from that gate. Unless he time traveled just before the deadline, meaning that as soon as he experiences time again, the TB would kick in.
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That's what I meant; I probably didn't type it right.
In the Old Timeline:
Janus-1 enters gate.
Janus-1 travels through gate.
Janus-1 exits gate.
In the New Timeline:
Janus-2 enters gate.
Janus-2 travels through gate.
At threshold of exiting gate, Janus-2 is TB'd and Janus-1 exist gate.
If TTI states the last exit from a gate is what is preserved, then Janus-1 would only appear at the exit of the gate, meaning that Janus-2 would be experiencing entering and traveling through the gate. Janus-2 would also see the exit, and reach it...but never exit. Janus-1 takes over that part of the job.
Bad graphical example:
ENTRANCE TO GATE MID-GATE EXIT--|
22222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222111111111111111
I knew Janus-1 would exit, but it just doesn't make sense for Janus-2 to enter the gate, and then be TB'd at that moment, with Janus-1 traveling. Janus-1 shouldn't appear until the actual exit from the gate. Which is why I questioned how the statement arose that the gate was sending them to the DBT. I took it to be the gate was activated to preserve TB, and therefore was to serve the same purpose. The actual "exit" from the gate is what TB's them, not the gate itself.
The only way I can explain this decently is imagine one of those oval shaped mirrors on a frame off the ground; those ones that aren't on a wall, kinda in the open. Imagine that only the frame is there, no glass, and it's straight up and down. Janus-2 walks up to it, and goes to step through. As he passes through the frame which would hold the glass for the mirror, he is replaced with Janus-1. He does not get replaced as he is walking to the mirror, only when he goes "through" the frame.
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Well, I always thought that a TB would only experience entering, but not being able to see the exit as they would go to the DBT. Either way the result is the same.
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Didn't read all the replies buuut, my initial impression is, not only the scale of this event but of it's uniqueness.
I assume this is the first example of time anomaly for the planet so it is a very volatile one. The space/time fabric within in is very jagged or "malleable" in terms of properties, so once in the single gate, Janus and Melchior were manipulated differently by the internal existing phenomena.
Second, and the response I think most on this site can agree with more, is picture a Ven diagram but with the 3 circles overlapping completely and compound it with the idea of dark matter. Maybe it is more than one gate but we are only seeing one gate, but it is also comprised of dark matter which contains undefined energy, so, not necessarily any single particular gate energy. That would support my first suggestion in a way.