Chrono Compendium
Enhasa Halls - Chrono Series Analysis => Characters, Plot, and Themes => Topic started by: sarua on January 13, 2005, 12:18:20 pm
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Sory if i posted this in wrong section of forum and if this has already been discused.
I have seen many people ho can`t understand how Lynx was able to kill Lucca. It happend after some time when ct adventure ended so it would be natural that Lucca`s skills would worn out and she wouldn`t cary her big gun all the time, after all it`s peace. So imho it is simple as 2x2 that Lynx easily killed Lucca when she decided not help Fate
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You're forgetting a very big fact. Spekkio had infused Lucca with magic. A few rounds of "Flare", or even "Fire 2" would toast him. And if you're thinking "Well, Lucca didn't want to use fire magc in a burning house, I remind you that Lucca wasn't killed in her house. She was taken to Chronopolis to undo the Prometheus program.
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Nop, she refused to help so was killed in her house if i`m not mistaken.
And about magic, magic is same skills. Spekkio teached them a bit of magic and they in their journey learned to use it better from fights. And in the end how can you say that Lynx was weaker than Lucca even when she was fighting Lavos? Imho Lynx full power was never shown in the game.
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This hinges on the Aeris rule, and will probably be fully discussed when the "Fates of the CT Team" article is created. Titanic spoilers if you haven't played FF7, and want to.
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The Aeris rule means that any RPG character, no matter how badass in battle, can be killed by a simple knife to the back outside of it. The great Magus could be felled by Tata in a cutscene with a cup of poison tea, and Crono and Marle could be defeated by the Porre army. What we know should dictate that Tata would be sent to the far side of the universe via Black Hole, and thousands would be blinked out of existence in Luminaire, but since these occur outside the game, they're subject to the Aeris rule, and the safety and defense of the characters plummets.
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Lynx is a powerful magic user who can teleport, fly, and create shadows. I think that if Lynx had the element of surprise and Lucca was not armed or amored, he could overcome her.
What I don't accept is that any of the time travelers fell in battle to the Porre military, under any circumstances. Any of the travelers in battle readiness is a match for Lavos, and Chrono Cross did not demonstrate that Porre had any power which could threaten them. I don't believe an assassination attempt would be successful either. Any being who could withstand a blow from Lavos would not be significantly injured by whatever Porre would dish out, armored or not.
Zeality, that is an unfortuate reality of the genre. Graphical and gameplay limitations introduce these inaccuracies. At that point in the game, Sephiroth had the power to kill Aeris, but the battle system dictated that the damage caused by a sword blow was easily recovered from. If Aeris was completely vaporized by a magical attack it would make more sense.
I think the Chrono Series is a bit better than other works at being consistent. Take Crono's death for example. Any plot events which break the battle system have sufficient supernatural power. Except for Ozzie's traps, those are stupid.
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IMO, any such "Aeris rule" is an attempt by the game developers to escape rationality, reason, and physics, and therefore constitutes bad storytelling.
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That's stretching it a bit. At worst, it's a way of taking control away from the player.
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That is evil :| but if everything would be in player hands it would also be a bit uninteresting
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You forget that Aeris wasn't just stabbed by anyone. She was stabbed by SEPHIROTH. And come on, what was her max HP at that point in the game? Didn't Sephiroth nearly anihilate that dragon at the cloud flashback in kalm with just one swing. Also, I direct you to the last fight of the game.
*SPOILER*
If you chose to see what would happen if you didn't use the free omnislash when you fight HUMAN sephiroth, he slashes you with his sword for about 5,000 points of damge. It all plays in with the FF7 battle system.
By the way, when the hell did chrono and marle die? I must not have put the right character in my party when a certain scene occured in Cross. Please explain this to me someone.
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It's never stated anywhere that Crono or Marle died. It's sometimes assumed that this happened in "The Fall of Guardia," as seen in the PSX version of CT. In fact, there are many theories about what actually happened to them. The most notable:
-The pictures seen in Lucca's orphanage imply the orphans saw the CT crew.
-It's possible that Miguel is Crono.
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If you really think about it no matter how strong your characters get they are still human(with the exception of Robo obviously) and human flesh can be cut easily. Now during battles characters are wearing strong armor and therefore don't die from normally fatal attacks. However there are always small areas of the body not covered by armor and when your not in battle the attacker probably has time to hit you there instead of slashing madly(like in Aeris's case, all Sephiroth had to do was get her beneath whatever armor she had equipped) And should a character be wearing no armor even a toddler with a knife could kill someone like Crono as long as Crono didn't have time to dodge or attack first.
Therefore in the case of Lucca Vs Lynx it is most likely that Lucca was wearing no armor therfore only one hit from Lynx would kill her. All lynx had to do was wear enough armor to withstand her Flare or catch her by surprise before she could attack.
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I think you guys might be looking into the whole thing a little too critically. Remember, the leveling, update of weapons, armor, and abilities are all tied to gameplay, not story.
The best analogy I can think of is in the case of the Resident Evil series. In that series, your character can be bite by zombies, slashed by Hunters, and mauled by every sort of monster, all of which are infected by a deadly and communicable virus. However, no matter how much the character is hit, he/she never really suffers the effects of the virus. That's because he/she's not supposed to ever be hurt as defined by the storyline.
Point in case, Crono getting killed by Lavos, then coming back and wailing on the beast, taking hits that were actually stronger than that one attack and surviving. In the end, if it's not designated by the story, it's never happened. Every person remains at what could be considered a "normal" state, in which even Magus could be taken down by a single blow from a sword (much like Aeris was). The sole purpose of HP, MP, leveling, and all that is for gameplay, not story, because, let's face it, if just about every attack from an enemy were to work as it would in reality, then even Goblins and Imps would be deadly enemies throughout the entire game.
That would mean that, skill wise, Lucca never managed to improve any from her natural state. (How could she have beaten Lavos then? Lotsa dodging, grit, and having the script on her side :P ).
At least, that's the way I've always seen it.
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The numerical and computational aspects of the battle system are obviously related to game play, but the events displayed on the screen are very realistic and I think they are actually happening. The game doesn't take place in reality; it takes place in a fictional world where magic and time travel are possible. Crono can withstand attacks which would have vaporized him before because he became more able over time. Even if you don't believe that Crono achieved supernatural abilities, he obviously improved in strength and skill over the course of his travels.
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Not to mention that characters in any RPG tend to get unrealistically tough to kill. For example, in D&D, the average 5th level character (not very high leveled) can withstand a bullet to the head at point-blank range with ease. As said before, this is a flaw inherent in almost all RPGs; making an entertaining combat system necessitates bending a few rules.
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Oh, and if you follow the rules strictly, 75% of commoners will be killed by the attack of a common house cat.
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The only thing I can think of that would make unarmored opponents able to withstand bullets within the realm of reason and RPGs is a kind of Jedi-esque facility with creating force fields using one's own chi spirit energy. Said facility would improve as time went on -- we know that characters like Crono, Marle, and Lucca could possess such a skill, as they are innate magic users with great potential power. However, people like Ayla would require armor. In any case, the chances of any of the CT crew being felled in a straight fight is close to nil. Assassination is the only viable option in these cases -- as many skills as the crew has, precognition apparently isn't one of them. The only way of avoiding this would be if for some strange reason they sleep protected by a shield generator under a bulletproof blanket with a helmet on. Oh, wait, they live in a castle. IMO, some weird shit going down with time is the only explanation for why Crono and Marle could end up as the childlike wraiths they are in CC. If Lynx abducted Lucca by catching her off-guard or using her orphans as hostages to gain her cooperation, she may have killed herself to prevent the Prometheus lock from being released. While Lynx may not be able to easily kill her due to her magic ability, he is still able to hurt her, physically, mentally, and especially emotionally. FATE is quite a powerful entity itself.
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I always thought that Lucca died some time after the orphanage fire, because Lynx (and Harle of course) needed her to break the seal on FATE.
The Pros and Cons of Lucca's Battle
- Pros -
-Lucca is an extremely powerful Magic user
-Lucca's weapons, guns, are advanced, long range, devastating weapons
-Home field advantage, it's her house
-Lynx needs Lucca alive (long enough) to break the Prometheus lock
-Lucca, as mentioned in her letter to Kid, was always thinking that an attack on her, or her friends, would be likely due to what they did by changing history
-Lucca's known for having fire-protective armors, care of her father, Taban
- Cons -
-Home turf is nearly negated because...it's on FIRE!
-A load of panic-stricken kids that Lucca is more than likely trying to defend from the fire
-Lucca is outnumbered, she has to deal with the Lava Boys (is that their name?), Harle, and Lynx
-The attack is probably unexpected, regardless of Lucca's letter to Kid
So, although she's powerful, she's obviously outnumbered, surprised, and has to deal with the children, the fire, and then on top of that she's got monsters and demihumans after her as well. I think the odds were just against her...
Although there's one little thing, and that's a variable that depends on whether or not you believe Elements are stronger than Lavoid (new word?) Magic. But when it comes down to it, she just had way too much on her plate...
Where's your mom & dad, Lucca?
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Maybe i mistaken something but i thought that Lynx asked Lucca to break the seal and when she refused he killed her :?
-Lucca is outnumbered, she has to deal with the Lava Boys (is that their name?), Harle, and Lynx
Was it mentioned what attacked here with Lynx?
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Just noting that GrayLensman has a comprehensive model and theory to resolve this constant struggle of knife-in-the-back-kills outside combat while meteorite-at-sonic-speed doesn't kill in combat. It all revolves around elemental energy, and its status as the basis of the universe.
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Maybe i mistaken something but i thought that Lynx asked Lucca to break the seal and when she refused he killed her Confused
But...The seal was broken...I thought it was understood that eventually, they did get it out of her...
-Lucca is outnumbered, she has to deal with the Lava Boys (is that their name?), Harle, and Lynx
Was it mentioned what attacked here with Lynx?
I didn't say that all of those things attacked Lucca at once, or even at all, but the fact of the matter is that all of those things ARE in the orphanage causin' a ruckus because of her. Both Lynx and Harle want her, so I'm guessing they both attack her at the least...Although Kid never really mentions Harle, actually, she never knows about her until she meets her with Serge...Although she was unconcious for most of it I guess...I still believe they both attack Lucca, even if it's not at the same time. Plus, she's got to deal with the Lava Boys just for the simple fact that they're there. All the kids are freaking out and hiding because of them...in a burning house! I'm guessing though that they used Kid as a hostage (perhaps that's a reason she's knocked out?) to get to Lucca.
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But...The seal was broken...I thought it was understood that eventually, they did get it out of her...
No, they didn't, which is why Lynx needed to take the form of Serge. Taking the form ofSerge allowed them to gain access tot he Frozen Falme, get rid of the Prometheus lock, etc. Had Lucca broken it for them, Lynx (Fate) wouldn't ahve needed to use Serge's form.
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We never see a body, so we dont know where, or if, Lucca was killed.
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Of course, they may have not shown a body simply because they didn't want to actually have an appearance of any of the original cast of 7 in a physical form. Same with Robo, his presence is in the game, you can hear him talking, but you don't actually see him. You do know that he is dead, however. Note that I'm not arguing that Lucca is either alive or dead, I'm jsut stating.
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Robo's case is slightly different. Hes a machine, and therefore Robo's personality, memories, etc is all data on a computer chip. this data can be copied. But there is another topic on Robo's fate...
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One question:
Who says Lucca is dead?
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The ghosts do: 'We no longer exist in this timeline'. That implies that Crono, Marle, and Lucca are dead, at least in the home-world.
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Huh? Doesn't FATE at least imply that they offed Lucca?
Also, aren't the ghosts just talking about that timeline that Crono & Co. destroyed by defeating Lavos or something?
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Lynx says that he killed Lucca.
And I take "We no longer exist in this timeline" to mean they are the collective spirits of the saved future, who got erased when Serge lived to restore the Lavos future. And they take the form of Crono, Marle, and Lucca because those were the people who saved it. Well, the last part i'm not sure about. Because they used the word timeline, and exist, I take it that those are not Crono and co. Even if Crono, Marle, and Lucca were dead, they would have still existed on the timeline, just at previous points. The reason I think they are the collective spirits of the erased saved timeline is because who else would no longer exist?
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I don't recall exactly, but wasn't Lucca's element fire, and didn't the orphanage burn? Maybe Lynx somehow used Lucca's powers against her (maybe he killed an orphan, caused Lucca to go insane with revenge and burn the entire orphanage and herself to try to kill Lynx)
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That seems like a stretch...
I mean, it's not like ONLY people who are Fire Elemental can use fire...Not to mention Fire-based Elements.
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Plus there were those fire monster things that I forgot their names in the orphanage.
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Exactly.
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Lynx says that he killed Lucca.
No he doesn't.. He clearly says something to Kid like "You'll soon see Lucca" before hes about to kill her. But remember, Kid is basically immortal because of her pendant. Also, we know Lynx has a habit of using poisons on his daggers, could he have possibly knocked out Lucca with a sleep poison one? He could have wanted to do that to Kid aswell, and take her to Fate or something.
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Okay, Lynx heavily implied he kill Lucca.
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As far as I remember, in CT only fire elementals can use fire magic, and elements weren't available outside of El Nido (or if they were, only to Porreans), and I'm just assuming, but I take that it'd be hard to burn an entire house with a match
And, besides the orphanage, the only time those fire monsters (Lavaboys?) appear is in Mount Pyre, where the fire dragon has complete power, so the fire monsters could just be manifestations of high fire power
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Yeah, but I think it's obvious that Monsters can be caught and trained to do w/e you want (or at least fight and cause trouble)...This thought comes from CC's minigame with Sprigg...wtf was it called? w/e...
Why weren't Elements available outside of El Nido? For one, they were found by the ancient Dragonians in power points, yes? Were these only found in El Nido? I don't think this is specified. Secondly, if Elements were available ANYWHERE, they'd obviously be shipped out to Zenan and the other continents...
Also, Double and Triple Techs of non-Fire Elemental properties can become Fire Elemental.
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I think the minigame's called the Grandslam, but I don't see how that realtes....
I guess I don't have a specific reason as to why I don't think the fire could've been caused by elements, but it just doesn't seem right.
And, also, Lynx and Harle were standing inside the orphanage during the fire, it's seems, to me, that, if they caused it, they would've taken Lucca, gotten out, then burnt it down, or however they would've done it, but that they wouldn't burn it down while they were in it.
The only double/triple tech that I know that is fire-elemental from non-fire-elements is X-Slash, or w/e the Glenn/Serge one is called, and that really doesn't start any fire or anything; although it is fire-elemental, I don't think it can start a fire because it really has no 'fire' in it.. the best example I can think of is being able to burn (rope burn, dry ice, etc.) someone without starting a fire
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Why would they have taken Lucca? They confronted her at the orphanage, she refused to cooperate, they killed her(implied) and then burned the orphanage. Seems reasonable to me.
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SilentMartyr, were you CTcronoboy before?
I just put that taking Lucca thing in for if they wanted to 'negotiate' with her while using burning the orphanage as a threat.
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I used the GrandSlam because you were saying that you had only seen the LavaBoys in fire areas...I don't think it's implausible to think that LavaBoys could be captured or trained or w/e like the monsters in the GrandSlam...
And, yeah, I think they're just too badass to fear the flame.
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Is there any remote chance that Luccia herself could really be Lucca? Perhaps she is working undercover (for investigation purposes and for the safety of her own life), and she is closely watching Porre's military actions and advancements in technology. Not to mention, she could also be secretly keeping an eye on Kid, waiting for the right time to give her the letter that Lucca wrote to Kid (so she claims; the letter was actually written by her).
I mean if Miguel could be Crono, why couldn't Luccia be Lucca?
Note: I'm sorry that I keep bringing up all of these characters in Chrono Cross and proposing that they could have some connection with characters in Chrono Trigger.
Like:
Miguel = Crono
Luccia = Lucca
Serge = Janus
Marle = (Any ideas?) :) *Seriously*
I think I just want the important characters of Chrono Trigger to have some behind-the-scenes roles in Chrono Cross, thus making Chrono Cross more complex than what it already is. :wink:
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[Must hold myself back for going on a sarcaistic rant...]
I really really doubt it. Luccia is way to young. If Luccia=Lucca, do you not think Lynx would have tryed to so something when he visited Viper Manon?
And I don't put any stock in Crono=Miguel either.
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If Luccia=Lucca, do you not think Lynx would have tryed to so something when he visited Viper Manon?
Key Word: Undercover :P
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Okay, do you think Lucca would have tryed and aided Serge and Co. with her Magic using ablity? Luccia cannot use magic, and is no where NEAR the calibur of Lucca in terms of combat.
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Luccia cannot use magic, and is no where NEAR the calibur of Lucca in terms of combat.
Good point! :wink:
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hmm.. the Lavaboys could be created in firey places then taken it, I guess
Although it would be cool, I doubt that the developers planned for any of the characters (except for Guile initially) to be from CT, because I think the intention is for the characters of CC to be the new generation, like the ending in Zelda: Windwaker, where the old people flood the old place so the new people can have their own future, without giving too much away
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SilentMartyr, were you CTcronoboy before?
The force is strong in this one. :)
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*Looks at silent's sig*
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It could've been someone who liked the sig and just copied it w/o thinking about the name on it :(
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And has the same posts, and join date, and icon... ;)
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If I'm not mistaken (been a while since I played CC) couldn't you see Lucca's glasses on the ground when you confronted Lynx in the past? If she took off her glasses to sleep, and lynx managed to get to her before she could put them back on she'd be pretty much defenseless. It's an idea, at least. Lynx was no where near Lucca's caliber in a 1 vs. 1 fight.
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Yeah, you could see her glasses on the floor. :wink:
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As I remember, you don't actually confront Lynx, but I can't remember if going into the room with Kid triggers the scene with Lynx and Harle standing in the orphanage...
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That's what I meant lol, going into the room with kid and seeing the scene with Lynx and Harle inside the orphanage....I think that's how it happened anyway. I really need to play that part of the game again.
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Mother flippin' thread revival!
So there's a thread elsewhere where we were talking about the fate of Crono, Marle, and Lucca and what we expect actually happened to the characters. We have the most concrete answer for Lucca, and it certainly ain't a pretty end.
Spoilers for those who haven't played Chrono Cross:
So we see in the PSX anime ending of Chrono Trigger that Guardia falls in 1005AD; the Masamune is also used to kill and disappears. Even worse yet, I had forgot how violent this video is -- we clearly see multiple CIVILIANS lying dead amongst the dirt, not just soldiers. Yikes! Regardless, we later see a slightly older Lucca and a prototype robot (based off of Robo) walking through a forest, where they come upon a blonde-haired baby wearing a pendant... which we all know is actually the daughter-clone of Schala, Kid (for the record, I don't think Kid is an actual genetic clone of Schala -- the game refers to her as daughter-clone at some point, so I'm thinking she's moreso akin to a genetic daughter, but who the other genetic donor(s) would be is up in the air; this clearly reveals why she is Fire elemental and has very little physical similarities to Schala, but this is a topic for another thread).
Moving on, in Chrono Cross we learn that Lucca was recruited by Balthasar into Project Kid (in some capacity). Lucca may have visited Chronopolis and may have known the full extend of Project Kid and it's goal to save Schala from the Dream Devourer and the Darkness Beyond Time. We have confirmation that she helped design/implement the Prometheus Circuit (RIP) that was designed to safeguard against the FATE AI.
But here's something we're all forgetting...
All of the events in Chrono Cross are by design. They are quite literally all mechanisms carefully designed to occur so that Serge is created, become strong enough to obtain the Chrono Cross element, and then go free Schala. That means every battle he undergoes is intentionally designed with the end goal of making him stronger.
So, I got to thinking... Assuming the above is correct... Serge's birth was by design. His attack by the panther demon and becoming the Arbiter of the Frozen Flame was, again, by design. Which means that the fact the FATE AI gets locked out, goes crazy, and transforms poor Wazuki into a living bioorganic interface in the form of Lynx is, once again, by design.
Remember, all of this is part of Balthasar's grand plan.
So... by this very logic, the fact that FATE/Lynx confronts Lucca in 1015AD and burns her orphanage to the ground would HAVE to have been known as part of Project Kid. Why? Because the only home Kid knew until 1015AD was this orphanage, Lucca the closest thing to a mother she had. Kid, who is part of Project Kid's very design, NEEDED this event as a catalyst. This singular event, and the apparent demise of Lucca, is what would've been required to push Kid into the Radical Dreamers lifestyle and eventually cross paths with Serge.
So... this leads us to:
Q: Did Lucca know of her own role in Project Kid?
A: Unknown, although I could totally see megalomaniac Balthasar actively witholding this from Lucca and just allowing her to be another casualty in the scope of Project Kid. After all, what is one more death if it means quite literally saving all of space-time?
Q: But if she did know, and it's possible she did knowing her involvement in Chronopolis' safeguards, did she act as a willing sacrifice? Or did she concoct these events, knowing how brutal they'd be to 11-year old Kid, but necessary, and simply disappear until the appropriate time?
A: Once again, unknown. It's very possible Lucca is quite literally dead. This is most likely the case given how the story was written with complete disregard to our nostalgia regarding the Trigger crew, but then again, there's always this backdoor...
And if Lucca was willing to sidestep history (or at least for a time) in the name of the greater good... where does that lead Crono or Marle?
Food for thought. Or discussion.
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Part of me thinks she may not have known the full picture. Otherwise, it would be a very VERY messed up thing to have the children of the orphanage around the night the place would be attacked. Like, there may have been alternatives to ensure only Kid would be in the building that night, but the fact that it seems the kids were left to die... I'm not sure Lucca would've really signed up for that. Unless there was some sort of safeguards, but the way it's depicted in the game, it looks like Kid was the only survivor. Unless by coaxing them out of their hiding places and dousing some of the fires with the Ice Breath/Gun, Serge saved them, and that was also part of the scenario.
Hmm, I don't know... or wait, how exactly did that whole thing went? Was it actual time travel to the night of the fire, or just entering some kind of memory of Kid of the night? I'd need to rewatch that part.
Just as a minor sidenote, but Lucca's scene of finding Kid is before the Fall of Guardia, since it's part of the main ending cutscene. It plays right after Crono and Marle's wedding, but before the Fall of Guardia segment. Considering Kid's age, Lucca probably found her in like around 1004AD or so.
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I have not read too much onto this thread, so sorry if I missed something...
But people seem to be forgetting something very important about Lynx...he is already extremely powerful to the point where a level 99 Lucca would not be able to toast him with flare like some people suggest. Lets break it down.
Fight one with Lynx is against his Shadow...not Lynx himself.
Fight 2 with Lynx is also not anything to go by, because he was hilding back...and ultimately WON. He never wanted to kill Serge and crew in that fight, but swap identities with Serge himself. Once he does that, he wastes everyone effortlessly.
Fight 3 with Lynx is a little different, as he seems to actually want to stop you. After the fight he says it is already too late anyway, and that he underestimated Serge. He did not look tired nor scared however, and just states he has other things to do. Possibly a bluff, but also possible he never really wanted to stop you so much as toy with you. It is also important to note that Serge would have been A LOT stronger at this point as well, so his power could have been more comparible to Crono and gang at that time...though still not quite on par.
So what this sums up is that Lynx was never a push over or some low level threat to begin with, no matter how strong Lucca was. Also remember that Lynx is the one who defeated Crono himself, who was arguably stronger than Lucca to begin with. Now before we get into THAT debate, lets add one more fact to the equation that would be stacked up on top of Lynx's already deadly power...He had the corrupted Masamune at his disposal.
As Lynx was already dark, wielding the Masamune would not affect him mentally but would still amplify his strength. This is how he was able to beat Crono, and he likely still had it when he took on Lucca (who was likely distracted by the safety of the orphans as well). And as a cherry on top, look at his description for his ultimate move, Forever Zero. The move turns things to nothingness, implying the man can erase beings from existence. Not a power to be taken lightly (and also possibly exaggerated, but that is besides the point).
So when all factors are taken into consideration, I find it no suprise that he was able to get one over on Lucca to be honest.
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I know there are pointers that Lucca is dead, but I think there's a chance she might be alive. That scene near the end of the game, when Serge confronts Lynx in the burning orphanage... Her glasses are on the floor, next to his feet, which would indicate a struggle, yet no body can be observed... What happened to Lucca? Did Lynx burn her corpse? This seems unlikely in such a short time. Why is Lynx standing there, looking desperately out of the window? Could it be that Lucca climbed through and ran for it? It seems out of character for her, to leave the kids behind like that. I dunno.
As for Belthasar... He's a maniac. Manipulated countless lives and civilizations in order to execute his plan. So yes, I'd 100% buy it if he sacrificed Lucca to that end. To what extent she knew of his plan, who knows. I doubt she knew she was going to be killed. If she had, she wouldn't have endangered the kids in her orphanage. Before Serge's intervention (and possibly even after), several children died in that fire. Belthasar would have been fine with that, but not Lucca.