Chrono Compendium
Enhasa Halls - Chrono Series Analysis => Time, Space, and Dimensions => Topic started by: V_Translanka on June 04, 2004, 06:42:42 pm
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I'm sure this has been gone over to some degree, but it's just something I've been thinking about...Move/Mod/Delete/Lock as deemed necessary...
I was wondering...Under normal circumstances you can only get to the End of Time with four party members, right? Of course there are ways around this (like Gasper's run in on the Ocean Palace for instance). I was wondering though...How can the party return there then? Is it just that after you've been there once you can return even if you're only in a party of three? Time passes there, but do people age there? Of course any answer to that last question would be speculation I'm sure...I just wanted to know what people thought...
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Well in the beginning of the game, the Gates appear to take you from one specific location in time to another specific location in time. Examples: link between Leene Square in 1000 A.D. and 600 A.D.::Guardia Forest 1000 A.D. - Bangor Dome 2300 A.D.
Where the gate in Proto Dome would have taken the party under normal circumstances is not revealed. Gaspar says that all time periods connect to the End of Time, which means that every gate in the CT world will lead to at least two locations: its intended location as designated by the Entity or (perhaps) Lavos (applies to the gates created by it only), and the End of Time. Its my guess that Lucca's gate key has something to do with how the gate operates, remember that even if she isn't in the party, the item always remains with you. In 65 mil B.C., when the gate key is stolen, it is revealed that without the gate key, the party would not know where they would turn up in time if they used the Mysitic Mountain Gate (the intended location of the Mystic Mountain gate is also not revealed, {though that is where you are sent after the battle with Magus according to Ayla...}) so, they may not get as lucky with finding another gate as they did in 2300 A.D. (remember that they only found it because of the computer in Arris Dome). All that aside, i believe that after the experiences at the End of Time, the party CHOOSES to go to the End of Time via the technology of the Gate Key. My reason for this belief comes from the following situation: After the defeat of Azala and the fall of the Reptites in 65 mil B.C., a Gate appears at the Lair Ruins, supposedly created by Lavos. Even with the ability to go to the End of Time, the party CHOOSES not to and decides to go to the mysterious intended location of the gate (to Earthboud Island, 12000 B.C.). But afterwards, the gate leads back to the End of Time.
After some thought, I've decided that the End of Time does not draw people to itself after they've been to a gate's intended location once (this does happen throughout the game, but i think it is a coincidence). My reasoning for this is because the party uses the same gate twice to go from Leene Square in 1000 A.D. to 600 A.D. and back, and Gaspar says that too many people are appearing at the EoT, which would have to suggest that they went through a gate, and then found another one (yea right). So, in conclusion, the reason why the party always ends up at the End of Time is because they choose to using the Gate Key ( most likely to exchange party members and to have access to several other gates).
As for your question about whether or not they age, well biologically they would, just because time may be halted in the End of Time doesn't mean that motion and decay are halted. For if it did, then the end of time wouldn't truly be the end of time now would it because Gaspar and Spekkio are able to move.
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No, the End of Time cannot literally be an end to time; to end time would stop all movement of matter that was, is, and will be, and as we know some time progresses alongside Crono's travels, that is obviously not the case. Neither time nor decay are halted there, unless the Entity is a master of purely impossible deception. My belief is that the End of Time, like Lavos' dimension, is best described as a pocket dimension, with many entry and exit wormholes. The wormholes themselves converge into a large network, allowing access from any gate to one another or to the End of Time. Thus the End of Time is connected at certain periods of time when the Gates are created, activated, or what-have-you by the Entity, and progresses normally alongside those time periods in a similar fashion to Lavos' dimension. I'm sure people age, but I doubt Gaspar was stuck at the End of Time for too long--a couple of years at most--before the set of Gates that eventually bore Crono and crew from 2300 A.D. to the End of Time was connected, so he didn't have too long to grow too old. I'm sure age makes little difference to Spekkio, since he seems too be too magical for any particular commitment to the sorts of size, shape, and form that usually come with growing old.
1I do not think that destination via Gates is a matter of choice. I hadn't really thought about it before, but after doing so, my simple conclusion is that Gates--either by their natural mechanics or the Entity's handiwork--must be "broken in." Before a particular Gate is used, the pathways that connect it to the End of Time are shut off, but as an object travels through it for the first time, its momentum in passing or some other convoluted theory about the transporation of energy by a wormhole causes that particular valve to be opened. As a secondary condition--this is somewhat of a stretch, and is similar to choice, but seems a lot more likely than the party choosing every single time they use a Gate after the discovery of End of Time except in travelling to new areas, whereas many times it would be much faster (given the choice) to avoid the End of Time altogether--one must know that the End of Time is there to be shot through the valve and reach, a la (forgive me for not being able to spontaneously generate another example) Number Twelve, Grimmauld Place (Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix). The only exception, as explained by Gaspar, is the Conservation of Time Theorem. Perhaps the wormhole's path cannot hold four beings steadily without diverting them, and as such they must be forced to the End of Time. Given the Theorem's name, that makes a lot of sense. Anyway, after first discovering the End of Time, any--hrm--"soiled" Gate will automatically take travellers either to the End of Time or directly to a single destination. Any new Gates will continue on as normal at first, the walls being burst open in passing and forcing passage to the End of Time afterward.
So, two new theories presented about Gates:
1) Gates must be travelled at least once to allow passage to the End of Time; otherwise, the path will not be ready and open.
2) One must know of the End of Time to reach it, with the exception given by the Conservation of Time Theorem.
3) If both the above conditions are met by Gate and traveller, a traveller will always arrive at the End of Time directly from the Gate, and vice versa.
My thoughts.
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After reviewing the storyline of the game in my head a few times, I have come to the conclusion that you MAY be correct about gate travel not involving choice. An example that would support your point is: After the party defeats Heckran, they "learn" that Magus created Lavos, so they decide to use the gate at the fairgrounds to travel to 600 A.D. However, when you actually use the gate, you end up at the EoT. IF the party had the choice, they would logically choose to just go to 600 A.D. since that gate inherently leads to Leene Square in that time period. Hmm, I shouldnt have missed that.
However, you said, chronotriggerfreak, that 'soiled' gates will take the party either to the end of time OR directly to a single destination. Well what makes that "choice" of destination? And I don't see how it would be more convenient to skip the EoT in an attempt to go to a destination in time since gates appear to only lead to a single destination and the EoT. In the example i used at the top of this post, it would be smart to go directly through the gate to its intended location, however, what about the party going from 1000 A.D. to 65 mil B.C. to find the Dreamstone? There is no gate in that era that leads to 65 mil B.C. so the party MUST go to the EoT to access that old era. And what about the Lair Ruins - Earthbound Island gates? When the party goes through the gate a SECOND time from 12,000 B.C. (making it now a 'soiled' gate) they still end up in 65 mil B.C. as opposed to the EoT (which the party of course knows about at this time, unlike the time when the used a soiled gate to reach 1000 A.D. from 600A.D. in the beginning of the game). Perhaps this exception is due to Entity intervention (which cannot be proven, ever) or Schala's magic used to seal the gate (perhaps sealing the valve to the EoT which, I think, could be argued). So maybe choice does play a role in gate travel. Realistically speaking, it is advantageous to go to the EoT often to get advice from Gaspar, switch party members, and have access to several different time periods.
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What I meant was, if the Travellers entered the active Gate in the time period it's connected to, it takes them to the End of Time automatically. If they enter it from the End of Time, it takes them directly back to the time period. The "either" is dependent on from where the Gate is entered, not any random chance or choice.
Most of the latter portion of my second paragraph was rambling; just refer to the three summary statements below it. I'll call it The Three Articles of Gate Networking, or some such name. Gate Destination?
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Well according to your Three Articles of Gate Networking,
1) Gates must be travelled at least once to allow passage to the End of Time; otherwise, the path will not be ready and open.
2) One must know of the End of Time to reach it, with the exception given by the Conservation of Time Theorem.
3) If both the above conditions are met by Gate and traveller, a traveller will always arrive at the End of Time directly from the Gate, and vice versa.
Your theory is consistant until my earlier example is reached in the game And what about the Lair Ruins - Earthbound Island gates? When the party goes through the gate a SECOND time from 12,000 B.C. (making it now a 'soiled' gate) they still end up in 65 mil B.C. as opposed to the EoT (which the party of course knows about at this time, unlike the time when the used a soiled gate to reach 1000 A.D. from 600A.D. in the beginning of the game).
explain what has happend here please, clearly the party has fulfilled conditions 1 and 2 to reach the result, 3, so why do they not reach this result?.
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The sealing of the Gate as they passed was probably the cause of such an anomaly; as they passed, the entire path--all three entrances to the network--was closed by Schala's magic, and therefore they were forced out one end. Why? That is a good question, but it's difficult to answer without another consistent example to draw a fully supported theory from. For now, at 1:00 in the morning, I can only say that it happened.
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Fair enough, I can buy that. :)
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Perhaps it had something to do with the fact that Ayla is in your party at that time? She is an unexperienced traveler by the time you first go to Zeal-era, correct? Maybe not...I guess I'm not adding anything...
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I'm fairly certain you don't have to bring Ayla with you when you travel to and from 12000BC.
Very interesting. I really hadn't given much thought to why sometimes you didn't end up at the End of Time after several gate jumps later in the game.
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Not just to-and-from Prehistoric era, I meant after the Lavos falls upon the Reptite's Lair. Although, I suppose before you enter that gate, you could exit first and then switch her out, right? Or do you automatically go through it?
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i cannot remember if the dactyls are there or not, but you do not go through the gate automatically, you can leave the lair ruins.
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Not just to-and-from Prehistoric era, I meant after the Lavos falls upon the Reptite's Lair. Although, I suppose before you enter that gate, you could exit first and then switch her out, right? Or do you automatically go through it?
That's what I was referring to. I seem to remember exiting out and changing up my party before I accessed the gate.
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That means that having a new party member who has never come in contact with a gate before does not affect whether the party will travel to the EoT or the gate's intended location in time. So considering the context of that event in the game, the party must choose where they go. They want to see what is on the other side of that gate, and if you go to the Mystic Mountain gate, you will end up at the EoT, with or without Ayla. At this point I really do think that the party makes the choice.
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Wait, but that's not the real issue is it? I mean, we know they go to Zeal through that gate, but the gate is new to them, so of course it sends them straight past the EoT. It's the time after when they're banished from Zeal back to Prehistoric...
Perhaps it's because they're forced into the portal and it closes. The portal is closed while they're traveling, right? So perhaps the pillar in the EoT was closed before they got out of the temporal shift and thusly they went all the way back to that gate's beginning in Prehistory.
Or maybe it's something simple like you can't have the Dactyls back w/o going back because the portal is closed...
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That means that having a new party member who has never come in contact with a gate before does not affect whether the party will travel to the EoT or the gate's intended location in time. So considering the context of that event in the game, the party must choose where they go. They want to see what is on the other side of that gate, and if you go to the Mystic Mountain gate, you will end up at the EoT, with or without Ayla. At this point I really do think that the party makes the choice.
What are you talking about? If they enter the gate to 12,000 B.C., they wind up there, with or without Ayla, because the first condition of my theorem is not met. If they cheat the system and go through Mystic Mountain, Ayla has surely already been told of the End of Time, and so both conditions are met, landing them at the End of Time. If you're not willing to believe that, then don't make up crap about not going immediately to 12,000 B.C. when it's obvious the party would not even entertain the idea of wasting time and taking a detour to Mystic Mountain.
V_Translanka is addressing the real deal, and presents another possibility to add alongside what I had already proposed. Clarifies it, really, if you put the two together--the path to the End of Time is sealed before the party can run through it because the Gate is sealed before they can get there, forcing them out the straight path.
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oops, sorry guys, my mistake. Yes, Schala sealing the gate would force them to the Lair ruins because the entire gate itself is locked. okay so I guess we can safelyish say that the Three Articles of Gate Networking are correct.
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For once.
(I don't have a habit of making fairly plausible theories that are actually important in any way, shape, or form.)
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The sealing of the Gate as they passed was probably the cause of such an anomaly; as they passed, the entire path--all three entrances to the network--was closed by Schala's magic, and therefore they were forced out one end. Why? That is a good question, but it's difficult to answer without another consistent example to draw a fully supported theory from. For now, at 1:00 in the morning, I can only say that it happened.
maybe an equilibrium law. rejected from the zeal era the traveller lands at the other end of the time tunnel (and you can consider the end of time like a fulcrum)
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But not to worry.
All time periods connect here...
You can visit your friends whenever
you wish! But you can never travel in
groups greater than 3...
Once you've been through a Gate,
you can always use it to come here.
Gaspar uses the word CAN. He never says that the party will always come to the EoT. He had stated the Conservation of Time Theorem right before that. You would think he would explain to the party that they would always appear at the EoT from then on from the gates they have gone through because of..blah blah blah. But he doesn't...
1) Gates must be travelled at least once to allow passage to the End of Time; otherwise, the path will not be ready and open.
2) One must know of the End of Time to reach it, with the exception given by the Conservation of Time Theorem.
3) If both the above conditions are met by Gate and traveller, a traveller will always arrive at the End of Time directly from the Gate, and vice versa.
I think the will always arrive part in the third statement should be altered.
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Why? Just because Gaspar says "can"? If he said something more definite, he would be suggesting that they had to come back and visit often. Why would he do that? He can't really force them to return. He used "can" because he wasn't in a place to dictate their schedule of arrival and departure from the End of Time. He's impartial at that point, considering them just a few more travellers lost in time.
Anyway, if by "can" he meant that it was a choice, then why does the player seem not to have such a choice? I mean, there are many dozens of times when I'd prefer to just skip through to the direct time period. If the mechanics of the Gate are such that they alter destination based on a person's whim, why can we not affect this? Why must it be so inconvenient? Personally, I think there are ways to explain it, but unless you can throw some definite flaw in my theories other than Gaspar's use of the word "can," I see no reason why it isn't completely plausible.
I'd feel perfectly fine to be shot down, though, with good reason. :?
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Hi everyone, it’s been a while!
Well, I think that the Entity is who decides when the party must go to the End of Time:
Conservation of Time Theorem
Gaspar
When 4 or more beings step into a time warp, the Conservation of Time theorem states that they will turn up... ...at the space-time coordinates of least resistance. Here. [End of Time]
Support:
When Crono, Marle, Lucca, and Robo travel through an Entity-made Gate, they arrive at the End of Time.
ZeaLitY: Note that this applies to Entity-made Gates only. The warp effect at Magus' Lair brought about by Lavos did not send Crono's party and Magus to the End of Time, and likewise the Ocean Palace disaster disperses several beings through time:
65000000 BC: Nu at Laruba Ruins
600 AD: Janus
1000 AD: Melchior
2300 AD: Belthasar
End of Time: Gaspar
But can Robo be counted as a “being”? After all, Robo is just a machine, with no real life within it.
The real destination of the gate at Proto Dome is never revealed, but we know that there was another gate at the End of Time besides the 9 pillars, the one that leads to the Day of Lavos. That could be the counterpart of the gate at Proto Dome.
If that’s the case, the Entity, knowing that Lavos was too powerful to Chrono and co., lead them to the End of Time. Gaspar, who foresighted the up coming of Chrono and co., made up the Conservation of Time Theorem to make things easier for the party to understand.
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Hi everyone, it's been a while!
Well, I think that the Entity is who decides when the party must go to the End of Time:
Conservation of Time Theorem
Gaspar
When 4 or more beings step into a time warp, the Conservation of Time theorem states that they will turn up... ...at the space-time coordinates of least resistance. Here. [End of Time]
Support:
When Crono, Marle, Lucca, and Robo travel through an Entity-made Gate, they arrive at the End of Time.
ZeaLitY: Note that this applies to Entity-made Gates only. The warp effect at Magus' Lair brought about by Lavos did not send Crono's party and Magus to the End of Time, and likewise the Ocean Palace disaster disperses several beings through time:
65000000 BC: Nu at Laruba Ruins
600 AD: Janus
1000 AD: Melchior
2300 AD: Belthasar
End of Time: Gaspar
But can Robo be counted as a "being" After all, Robo is just a machine, with no real life within it.
The real destination of the gate at Proto Dome is never revealed, but we know that there was another gate at the End of Time besides the 9 pillars, the one that leads to the Day of Lavos. That could be the counterpart of the gate at Proto Dome.
If that's the case, the Entity, knowing that Lavos was too powerful to Chrono and co., lead them to the End of Time. Gaspar, who foresighted the up coming of Chrono and co., made up the Conservation of Time Theorem to make things easier for the party to understand.
Whoa, that actually makes a whole lot of sense. So the whole flashy electric thing when the 4 of them step into the gate is the result of some forced pitstop or something? hmm, well if you watch the "Reunion" ending, you see that as a party member steps into a gate, its partner gate (which is conviently opposite the other gate) disappears along with the original gate (example: Frog steps in the 600A.D. Truce Canyon gate; that gate along with its partner, 1000A.D. Leene Square gate, disappear) so I had the impression that the Proto Dome gate (which is in the center of the 9 pillars) originally led to the EoT. Just as the gate to Medina is the partner gate to the 65 mil B.C. gate. I think of it like this: The Entity has solved all of the "what if..." problems. In other words, the Conservation of Time Theorem is true, but if for some reason, Robo had not been in the party, Crono and Co. still would have wound up at the EoT. Just like if some of the people who were supposed to end up at the EoT (i'm assuming from 65milB.C. and 1000A.D. since only those pillars are open) from 65mil B.C. didn't, the party could still go there by going through the Medina gate. (strange how they are partner gates since you have to go to 65mil B.C. right after you talk to Melchior about the Dreamstone)
Also, in Magus's flashback, several small gates appear, not just one gate. Only at Magus's castle does the theorem not apply, however I wonder if perhaps Magus was sent through first, being in the center of the gate, then perhaps the destination changed, but who knows.
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I think it's mentioned elsewhere, but the Proto Dome gate likely led to Medina Village in 1000 AD. If you compare the maps of the timelines from each end of a gate, they match up very close geographically. The Proto Dome is perhaps the best match of all, as it sits practically directly ontop of the house in Medina. It's odd though that the 2 gates arent opposite each other in the end of time. But why is the 65,000,000 BC gate there?
Well, I think that its opposite must be the bucket that leads to 1999 AD. If you think about it, these 2 eras are perhaps the most significant in the the history of the planet. The date Lavos arrives, and the date he rises.
But as to why the 1999 AD gate is seperated from the others, perhaps its something much more simple. Gaspar comments that people have been dropping into the End of Time recently. Perhaps he moved the 1999 AD gate over closer to himself, so he could warn time travellers to avoid that gate. And he does just that, he warns Crono's group about the 1999 AD gate the first time you talk to him. I assume he has the power to do this, however it seems logical. All 3 gurus performed some fantastic feats, Gaspar's being the time egg. Since the End of Time really has no fixed point in space, perhaps moving the physical entrance of the gates is childs play for someone such as him. Or perhaps Spekkio did it? Either way, its still moved.
Though this would be much more clear if the 65,000,000 BC pillar of light and the 2300 AD one simply changed places.
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The 65000000 gate was made when Kino was gated to the Mystic Mountains. Proto Dome is the gate that Belthasar arrived in at 2300.
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And the 1000 AD Medina Gate was previously accessed by Melchior.
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Where are the other ends to these gates however? If everyone including Melchior is able to create gates in the End of Time, we should have Medina: 1000 AD AND Ocean Palace: 12,000 BC
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The gurus never used the Time Gate in 12,000 BC. They fell through separate black-portals which suddenly appeared in the Ocean Palace.
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Which would in turn create a portal heading back to 12,000 BC, or 11,995 BC. Whenever they fell through.
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Not necessarily since the black portals are special. 1) They were created by Lavos & 2) They opened up, sucked in whoever (a Guru, a Prince, w/e), spit them out, and disappeared forever just as quickly as they had opened.
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I always saw it like this:
After a team of 3 people have already visited the end of time and gone through a gate once, some power is evoked, and a copy of that gate is sent to the end of time (as a pillar of light) and I belive the power is evoked by Bellthasar, for some reason, (either to help Chrono, or something else) however that would not explain how the first 3 pillars are there, unless somehow, other people somehow went through the gate, but that's just my idea.
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Why Belthasar? If anyone it would be Gaspar. But in any case, the guru's can not control gates, or they wouldn't be stuck where they are ;)
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The Gates are linked to the End of Time....because it's the End of Time. Gaspar says it's where all space-time meets up.
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Not 'where they meet up'...he says that it's the space-time coordinant of least resistence.
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And for all we know, Gaspar couldn't use the gates himself. You might have still needed the gate key to activate the pillars.
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(Deep breath) okay, we know that time (surprisingly) passes in the end of time because it would have taken at least some time to build the messed up place that Jasper and the god of war hang out at, so, supposedly the characters should feel the effects of time, yet it is uncertain wether the amount of time that passes at The End of Time is the same amount that passes when Chrono and friends are wandering around the other time periods. It boils down to the questions of: Do all points in time within the Chrono Trigger universe travel at the same temporal speed (meaning Jasper has lived at the end of time as long Methcoir has lived in the present) or is time expierenced diffrently at the end of time than at other periods (one hour in the real world equals a minute at T.E.O.T. ect.)
Sorry I leave long answers, it's just how I type...
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Why does time have to pass there? Objects can move through space if time never exsisted in the first place. We cant concieve it, but it would be possible out of the bounds of our/the chrono universe. Supposing the end of time is a pocket universe, with different physics, it would be entirely possible.
But then, I just found a flaw in my own theory.
If no time passed, everybody who ever went in and out of the E.O.T. would be there at exactly the single moment that there is. Thus, you would see yourelf in past, current and future visits to the place, all the the same time.
Maybe if you watched them leave they would go out. but then, even if you werent watching, they would. but then I disprove my theory again. This is confusing.
im just going to say it is a diferrent universe wit physics we cant percieve as of yet.
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And for all we know, Gaspar couldn't use the gates himself. You might have still needed the gate key to activate the pillars.
Well since other people have been popping through gates, I'd doubt it. They'd have to get back home through the pillars. Gaspar may just choose not to.
Or maybe the portals created a the ocean palace made it so no one can travel through time. Belthasar didn't use the epoch. Gaspar doesn't time travel, Melchior... Whatever and Magus said he was stranded, even though he somehow has the power to traverse time and space later and can summon things. And then again, he was sent to Zeal, but maybe that was because it was Lavos' energy and then the Epoch let him time travel with the others. Probably not. Scrap it.
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Or maybe you just need a Gate Key. >.> Because these other people passing through time periods needed some kind of catalyst to open Gates, so logically they could use that catalyst to return home. Janus and the Gurus are the only people we know of to have traveled through time without a Gate Key of some sort. (Gate Key, Epoch, Pendant, Chrono Cross, Mastermune, etc.)