Chrono Compendium
Enhasa Halls - Chrono Series Analysis => History, Locations, and Artifacts => Topic started by: DeweyisOverrated on March 07, 2006, 02:24:41 am
-
I'll skip past the obvious stuff.
We know that Masa and Mune (and Doreen) were created "out of Melchoir's dreams". They can seperate, and then combine into one form.
Now, here's my question. Were Masa and Mune created seperatly? Or, were they envisioned as one being, which can seperate into two forms? Another way of asking this is, did Melchoir "envision" them as two seperate beings, and they somehow learned how to morph? Or, did he envision it as one being that can split?
Secondly, how does Doreen play into this? When they form the Mastermune, can they form a sort-of "uber"being? Take note that when serge receives the Mastermune, using Flying arrow shows the original Masamune "monster" behind him, possibly implying that Doreen may not change with them, or she may, but the appearance doesn't change.
-
Additionally, the Tech "Grand Dream" in CT shows 3 fat Masamune monsters attacking the enemies... Since Mastermune is actually also called Grand Dream in the Japanese CC version, it's most probable that the 3 monsters of the CT Grand Dream are supposed to Masa, Mune, and Doreen (each in uber-form...).
-
Why was Grandleon renamed as the Masamune in the first place anyway? I would have understood if it were the other way around, but I just don't get this... Something tells me Nintendo would prefer Grandleon over the Masamune.
Well anyway. I think Masa, Mune and Doreen are the one and seperate dreams. Kinda like, Masa could be Melchior's will to forge and Mune could be his will to refine, and as Masamune they become Melchior's will to create. (I'm not saying they are that. Just... an example.) Doreen then can be something like, Melchior's dream to shape the ultimate weaponry. So Masa and Mune can do what they are supposed to do, and Doreen can help them at what they can do by themselves... or something.
Uh... I hope you got what I was talking about there.
-
That actually makes sense. Another question I forgot to post was, do Masa and Mune actually represent what they say they do? "With Masa's bravery and Mune's knowledge, two become one." I'm wondering if maybe Masa embodies Melchoir's dream of bravery, etc.
Of course, that raises the question of what Doreen was meant to represent.
-
If Masa and Mune say what they are, Doreen could be dream itself. She talks about it often. By dream becoming one with bravery and knowledge, the Masamune gains its true power. Without a dream, bravery and knowledge are nothing more than purposeless power...
Though, I thought the "With Masa's bravery and Mune's knowledge, two become one!" quote was a parody of many animes and stuff...
-
Though, I thought the "With Masa's bravery and Mune's knowledge, two become one!" quote was a parody of many animes and stuff...
Definitly a possibility. The guy who designed the characters (forgot the name) was actually the same artist who designed the characters in Dragon Ball Z, which is sometimes a criticism of the character design in Trigger. And although I've never watched DragonBallZ in my life, I do know that they have that "FFFUSSSS...SSSION!" thing going, where two people combine into another form.
-
Yes, you have to admit that the whole cliche is that without a goal (aka Dream) you have no purpose and that you have no purpose in fighting. Bravery and knowledge are self explanitory; they give the user more stats in areas connected to it. Dream gives the person a reason to fight.
-
In Japanese culture, Courage (Will, actually), Wisdom, and Power were seen as a trinity of sorts, and makes it's way into Japanese popculture like CT and heck, even Zelda's Triforce, and other examples in video games and anime. The Japanese believe that without one of these three traits, the other two are meaningless. Power without the Wisdom and Will to use it are worthless. Wisdom without the Power and Will to use it is worthless, and Will without Power or Wisdom to use it is meaningless.
Perhaps Melchior intended the Masamune to have the Power, Wisdom, and Will to be used as a holy weapon to create, and never strike down the innocent (See actual Masamune myth). Without Doreen, however, the Sword is merely Power and Wisdom with no Will. Thus, the Masamune draws strength from the will of it's bearer. This ultimately led to it's corruption, as we know, and Doreen created the Mastermune, the Ultimate Weapon Melchior invisioned.
-
In Japanese culture, Courage (Will, actually), Wisdom, and Power were seen as a trinity of sorts, and makes it's way into Japanese popculture like CT and heck, even Zelda's Triforce, and other examples in video games and anime. The Japanese believe that without one of these three traits, the other two are meaningless. Power without the Wisdom and Will to use it are worthless. Wisdom without the Power and Will to use it is worthless, and Will without Power or Wisdom to use it is meaningless.
Perhaps Melchior intended the Masamune to have the Power, Wisdom, and Will to be used as a holy weapon to create, and never strike down the innocent (See actual Masamune myth). Without Doreen, however, the Sword is merely Power and Wisdom with no Will. Thus, the Masamune draws strength from the will of it's bearer. This ultimately led to it's corruption, as we know, and Doreen created the Mastermune, the Ultimate Weapon Melchior invisioned.
This is really quite insightfull. The question is, why wasn't Doreen included in the Masamune in the first place? Either Melchior ran out of time to complete the sword before the Ocean Palace incident or it was flawed in design. Perhaps Doreen wasn't fully prepared to fuse with the others at that time. She did seem somewhat unfocused or "flakier" compared to Masa and Mune.
[Mune]
I wanna be the wind, Masa!
[Masa]
Oh, you will some day.
[Mune]
Big sister Doreen's at Enhasa again
[Masa]
Yeah...
That's 'cause she likes dreams.
[Mune]
I like the wind better!
Whoosh!
Of course, they were all kind of weird.
-
When you talk to Doreen she is really random in a sense... (in another sense one could argue her total brilliance and intellect) but possibly Melchior created a Doreen as a failsafe, in case the sword's master is corrupted. Doreen would come and cleanse the sword, but Melchior did not see it necessary at first.
-
I believe it's both, but mostly that Melchior didn't finish it in time. I just find it interesting that Doreen COMPLETELY disappeared after Zeal fell until right after Dario was beat and Masa and Mune woke up.
-
This is really quite insightfull. The question is, why wasn't Doreen included in the Masamune in the first place? Either Melchior ran out of time to complete the sword before the Ocean Palace incident or it was flawed in design. Perhaps Doreen wasn't fully prepared to fuse with the others at that time. She did seem somewhat unfocused or "flakier" compared to Masa and Mune.
Continuing the analogy of the trinity I mentioned, it was believed that you can't be born with all three in perfect alignment. You have to refine them through spiritual growth. Maybe Melchior chose Doreen to be the one to meditate and grow (hence the Dream connection) because, in an emergency, she could be the one dropped with minimal problems. Without Power, there's no sword. Without Wisdom, the sword could be corrupted by Power. However, without Will, the sword would have Power, and the Wisdom to keep it from being corrupted (Atleast for a good while.)
-
I don't think Doreen represents a dream because simply the dialogue of masa and mune when crono wins... Something to the effect of "What will become of us? Will they find us a master? will they fix us?" This in effect shows they have a dream, but they really don't have any intentions or the ability to do it themselves. They obviously have the ability to do it if they really had the will to.
-
Is it just me, or do "Masa" "Mune" and "Doreen" remind you of the Christian Trinity? Some Christians say the Holy Ghost is feminine, and for all we know, Doreen...
-
Ha. The Christian Trinity is the last thing that comes to my mind. At the very least because it implies either Masa or Mune is omnipotent and is the father of the other, atleast metaphorically. The Christian Trinity isn't very balanced at all.
-
Reminds me much more the Zelda Triforce... elemental goddesses with corresponding spirtual attributes which have parallels is screaming at me.
TRIFORCE OF WISDOM! TRIFORCE OF COURAGE! TRIFORCE OF POWER! (Well it was along those lines...)
-
Thread revival! 12 years later!
So this is something I've been really thinking about recently. Maybe it falls back to the upcoming Dream Splash and their relation to the Dreams of Zeal, but Masa, Mune, and Doreen have always fascinated me.
We know so little about them!
Here's what we know
-Masa and Mune are separate entities (or are they?)
-Can combine into a big fart-faced muscle dude named Masamune
-Utilizes the power of the wind
-Can form a powerful sword that manifests the will of it's wielder...
-...Which, when wielded by one with a "negative" willpower, can corrupt the Masamune into a cursed blade capable of near-possession and violent, corrupting influence
-They can also join with their sister, Doreen, to become the Mastermune -- a powerful weapon that appears capable of changing forms. This creates the assumption that they can take on various forms; the sword form in Chrono Trigger is just a form, although it may be their primary/default form
-They are seemingly born from the Ruby Knife, created my Melchior, which was used by Crono (and someone else in the original timeline; likely Schala or Melchior himself) to strike the Mammon Machine. This infused it with tons of magical energy -- was this the birth of Masa and Mune? Their rise to consciousness? Or perhaps they were already aware and this simply brought them their strength, their ability to manifest willpower into raw strength?
-They believe that it's more important in how you use the sword rather than how strong the sword is
-Has a counterpart from the Dragonian timeline called the Einlanzer, which can negate the Masamune should it be corrupted
-When corrupted, Masa and Mune are "asleep" -- so perhaps they are unaware while their power is tapped? Or is asleep moreso wordplay for their lack of influence over the wielder using positive-traited willpower?
I may have missed a detail or three.
So I already present some questions as I was laying out the known facts, but I can't stop thinking about they guys for some reason. Who are they? Are they manifestations of Melchior's Life? Are they his willpower incarnate?
One "fanon" theory that I do prescribe to is that while Masa and Mune make the Masamune (Grandleon in Japan), Doreen is actually Marle's pendant. This helps explain the almost sentient-nature of the pendant at times and makes for some good fan theorying.
-
-They are seemingly born from the Ruby Knife, created my Melchior, which was used by Crono (and someone else in the original timeline; likely Schala or Melchior himself) to strike the Mammon Machine. This infused it with tons of magical energy -- was this the birth of Masa and Mune? Their rise to consciousness? Or perhaps they were already aware and this simply brought them their strength, their ability to manifest willpower into raw strength?
So I already present some questions as I was laying out the known facts, but I can't stop thinking about they guys for some reason. Who are they? Are they manifestations of Melchior's Life? Are they his willpower incarnate?
Masa and Mune weren't born when the Ruby Knife struck the Mammon Machine. You can in fact find them and talk to them both at Zeal Palace and the Ocean Palace. It's likely all it needed was for the object to exist at all, since the Ruby Knife was already a thing at this point.
Well, I think at the Ocean Palace they state they are Melchior's hopes and dreams. Considering what they state about the sword, perhaps they are in fact the manifestation of Melchior's beliefs and expectation when both creating the sword and how it should be used.
-
Well, I think at the Ocean Palace they state they are Melchior's hopes and dreams. Considering what they state about the sword, perhaps they are in fact the manifestation of Melchior's beliefs and expectation when both creating the sword and how it should be used.
This was my take on it as well.
I always assumed that in the original timeline, Melchior was the one to stab the Mammon Machine. In both timelines, Lavos's energy transformed the Ruby Knife into the Masamune, empowering it but also making it corruptible. Wielding the sword with evil intent forces Masa and Mune into dormancy, since it's so antithetical to their nature. Without a purehearted wielder to awaken them, the sword will continue to collect and magnify negative sentiments until you get what we see in Chrono Cross.
That's my spin on it, anyway.
-
Masa and Mune weren't born when the Ruby Knife struck the Mammon Machine. You can in fact find them and talk to them both at Zeal Palace and the Ocean Palace. It's likely all it needed was for the object to exist at all, since the Ruby Knife was already a thing at this point.
You're right! I'd forgotten that.
So I guess the transformation from Ruby Knife -> Masamune is what happened at the Ocean Palace. The Masamune supposedly has the power to dispel magical barriers (and that's why it's needed to fight Magus), so perhaps that's how it gained that aspect; it absorbed part of the Mammon Machine's powers (or something) -- and I'm definitely of the mindset that the Frozen Flame was somehow being utilized by the Mammon Machine, directly or indirectly.
-
:?
Seens like at although i beat that game, i donīt think enough...
-
Can't remember if I said this theory already, but I figured the Ruby Knife was originally meant to be for Janus. It fits with it being the brother(s) of Schala's pendant, also meant to control the Mammon Machine/interact with Lavos, how it can be used for good or evil depending on the wielder's will, why its called "The Demon Sword" in both sequels, the whole Wind association, and why Magus used a seemingly useless RED!!! scythe to try and beat Lavos at the Ocean Palace.
-
That's a pretty awesome theory. Imagine Magus as the true wielder of the Masamune!
-
Hmm, interesting.
I'd wonder why a dagger, in that case, but then if I remember correctly, some NPC's in Zeal doubted that Janus had any magical expertise. Could add to the theory, perhaps...
-
I'd wonder why a dagger, in that case, but then if I remember correctly, some NPC's in Zeal doubted that Janus had any magical expertise. Could add to the theory, perhaps...
That's the solve for the theory. The theory itself is sound and actually makes perfect sense.
Maybe Melchior saw how the Queen - and her forcefulness with making Schala interact with the Mammon Machine - would not bode well for Schala and would end in her demise. Maybe he made the Ruby Knife to give to Janus as a contingency plan; should the Queen's drive become too much and truly become detrimental to Schala, he knew Janus would be willing to destroy the Mammon Machine in order to free his sister. After all, Melchior knew he was in trouble for defying the Queen - which proved right when he was arrested and sent to Mt. Woe as punishment.