Chrono Compendium
Enhasa Halls - Chrono Series Analysis => History, Locations, and Artifacts => Topic started by: Drumguy074 on December 08, 2003, 11:54:04 pm
-
I remember reading somewhere (i thought it was in CC, but i could be wrong) that the sword had to have been possessed by a being of immense evil to have changed to the evil sword present in CC.
-
I remember reading somewhere (i thought it was in CC, but i could be wrong) that the sword had to have been possessed by a being of immense evil to have changed to the evil sword present in CC.
This is showed in the PSX CT version.
-
Let us examine the evidence.
Radius: The Masamune... That sword is cursed with hate and sorrow... Anyone who lays his
hands on it will be overcome with negative sentiments and will be driven mad...
Radius: Now I know... Dario was possessed by the enmity of the Masamune, too.
The evil is certainly innate, but I couldn't find anything about its corruption. I personally believe, as knuck said, that the Masamune became corrupted after Masa and Mune went to sleep (perhaps before the fall of Guardia) and the fall itself, in which it may have been used to slay many or have been corrupted by Porre. It also seems to have masters. Perhaps its 'master' before Dario was the man seen in that cutscene.
-
What I want to know is what made Masa and Mune go to sleep in the first place, I doubt they just got tired. . .they spent the entire time from the fall of zeal until 600 A.D. without going to sleep. So what made them do it? Oh, and as far as the article, I really doubt I'm gonna have time to do it (pre med majors suck) so if someone would like to take over on it, feel free, if it doesn't get done I might have some time to do it after work over christmas.
-
Pardon me for jumping in uninvited... but I figured I would add something not yet mentioned (I think.)
(This is abstract and hypothetical, pardon the lack of proper documentation.)
Earlier on it was stated that the Masamune was effective against Magus because It absorbed/distorted the energy of Lavos that permeated Magus's being. I propose that purpose be taken a step further, in that Melchior created the Masamune to be a 'receptacle' of Lavos power. Fighting fire with fire. The Red Weapon was the untuned form of Masamune, and thus was attuned to Lavos's energy when it was plunged into the Mammon Machine, thus 'completing' it, with Masa and Mune as a sort of 'guardian' or keeper of the absorbed energies.
As the battles continued, the Masamune absorbed more and more of the latent energy of Lavos. How Masamune Two of CT fits in (As I see it) would be that Cyrus's spirit joined with the blade and 'increased' the energy of Lavos that could be harnassed.
Frog faces off against the true form of Lavos with the others, holding the Masamune in his hands. One slash, two slashes, each one would have absorbed more of Lavos's power, pure and untainted (relative).
After Lavos is dispatched, Masa and Mune sleep, knowing that the threat is 'over.' Cyrus goes on to his great reward, reincarnated, or completely nullified as time sees fit. In their ignorence (and the two have litterally proven they are airheads) they figure no more Lavos, no need for the sword; little do they know that in fact Lavos still exists, albeit in a somewhat different form. Lavos takes over the Masamune while the two sleep, creating the 'Demon Blade' of CC out of the pulsing-dangerous energy that the sword had accumulated over time.
This could also explain why Doreen was so angry with Masa and Mune, who had been sleeping on the job, letting Lavos use the accumulated energies of the sword as a form of avatar for himself.
This would explain the dual nature of the sword somewhat, for while it would 'reflect' the will of the weilder, it would also have the will of Lavos acting upon it. It would take someone of strong will to balance the ying/yang aspect of the powers. Masamune is the positive aspect of the power. Demon Blade is the negative aspect of the power.
With this theory the Hero's medal that Frog was so attached to would in fact be Psychosomatic as earlier stated, as it would focus the intention of the weilder of the blade. This would mean the Hero Medal would NOT have to be the same for both Frog and Pierre. One must have an ideal to focus on, a banner to hold high and say "this is what I strive for." It would be a power to enforce the mental-positive Masamune aspect.
For those of you asking why didn't the Masamune aspect turn everyone who weilded the blade into a raving peace zealot, remember the intention of good has never theoretically been to dominate evil, but instead to create the balance that is necessary for existence to flourish. The reason why the Demon Form DID make weilders become death zealots and jealous is because the intention of evil is indeed to overtake and sway the balance in its favor.
-
Wow...that's a lot...but the idea has a lot of merit. Welcome to the Compendium, Empiric!
-
Pardon me for jumping in uninvited... but I figured I would add something not yet mentioned (I think.)
Ha! One is always welcome to jump right in discussion. In fact, many earth-shaking proposals or bits of insight have come about this way.
(This is abstract and hypothetical, pardon the lack of proper documentation.)
Earlier on it was stated that the Masamune was effective against Magus because It absorbed/distorted the energy of Lavos that permeated Magus's being. I propose that purpose be taken a step further, in that Melchior created the Masamune to be a 'receptacle' of Lavos power. Fighting fire with fire. The Red Weapon was the untuned form of Masamune, and thus was attuned to Lavos's energy when it was plunged into the Mammon Machine, thus 'completing' it, with Masa and Mune as a sort of 'guardian' or keeper of the absorbed energies.
Good commentary; certainly the Masamune would utilize or at least conduct Lavos' power, as it is composed primarily of dreamstone. This is also in tune with a debate earlier on whether the plunge into the Mammon machine 'christened' the Red Knife in some fashion.
Your explanation on why the Masamune corrupts outwardly rather than simply reflect the evils of its wielder is reasonable; considering that the above statements are true, it is indeed likely that Lavos' power may reside in the Masamune in some form. In addition, under Ybrik's generally accepted theory that Lavos truly was expunged from the planet in 1999 A.D., fresh energy would still be available for the Masamune to absorb throughout history. Would you like to give a name to your theory? The entry in the theories/principles encyclopedia will probably be named Masamune (Corruption of), and your theory will be pitted against the belief that bad experiences with the Porre army caused its mutation into the 'Mammon Blade,' as Radical Dreamer called it.
For those of you asking why didn't the Masamune aspect turn everyone who wielded the blade into a raving peace zealot, remember the intention of good has never theoretically been to dominate evil, but instead to create the balance that is necessary for existence to flourish. The reason why the Demon Form DID make weilders become death zealots and jealous is because the intention of evil is indeed to overtake and sway the balance in its favor.
Interesting. Welcome to the Compendium, Empiric; you've certainly made a hell of a landing.
To nitpick, there is one problem with your theory; the Masamune gradually became corrupted over 600 A.D. to 1020 A.D., correct? Thus, would this also include the physical mutation seen in Chrono Cross? Conversely, that may have just been an artistic change by Square.
May I open up discussion on another point of inquiry? What exactly is the 'Master' system that is implied in Chrono Cross? Apparently the Masamune, or at least the evil sword, declares certain beings its masters, albeit for a very short time. It is this way with Dario; upon his remembrance of his deeds, the Masamune is summoned to him. After the fight, the master apparently becomes Serge. However, as there is no history to this system, it may not have any relevancy/truth.
-
Sorry to go off on a tangent like this, but maybe we can figure out something by figuring out what exactly dreamstone is. From the name, it sounds like it is a substance that can draw/release power from the dream or spirit world. This would explain it's dual nature a little better in my opinion.
Since it would be able to manipulate the dream world, it could effect, and be effected by the subconscious of its weilder. Thus, the sword would be able to reveal a person's true nature.
-
I shall hereby name my theory the: Masamune Battery Theory.
Heh
Anyways, to continue with the earlier discussions, Remember that the generally conceded reasoning for Magus's transformation would have been Dark Magic, ipso facto, Wouldn't the Mammon Blade have decided to go for a cosmetic makeover as well either intently or unintently?
Also, with proposed Master System, once again (And I keep forgetting to quote) it was earlier stated that so far the Mammon Blade/Masamune had selected people with strong senses of self and a strong will (Radius... etc.) This would also coincide with my Battery Theory, the blade needs a 'proper' recepticle to channel and guard its power. Masa and Mune direct this search while they are in control, and Lavos directed it while he was in control. Now remember Lavos brings 'Evolution' (i.e. change), and it would be logical that the Mammon Blade would be passed in quick succession from one master to another. Masa and Mune however pick one for life on a general basis, and every time they have been handed off its been for some quest or another. Masa and Mune require that the host be willing and have a purpose to better release said energy. They want the biggest and the best. Lavos simply wants a host to release it in a quick, angry burst. And if the host survives, so much the better.
As for the dreamstone, It always seemed to me to be a sort of mental Capacitor, something mental power can be charged into and released from with minimul fuss but no long term commitment.
I have another question, what is the origins of the Masamune in real life? If somebody could find the myth or story in which this blade was brought to the attention of so many video games, it might lend us a hint as to the nature of the blade in the game.
-
Taken from the Final Fantasy Compendium (www.ffcompendium.com):
The Japanese sword Masamune: One explanation is that there was a feudal lord named "Masamune Date" (Date (da-te) is the family name) who ruled Rikuzen (area near Sendai) around the early 1600's. He lost one of his eyes due to sickness in childhood, and he was nicknamed "Dokuganryuu Masamune" (Masamune, the one eyed dragon). Another story says that there was a blacksmith named "Masamune", and his sword was so sharp that you could drive it into the ground in a lake, and leaves that floated by would float around the Masamune due to its holy power. Nate writes that Masamune is actually the name of a Japanese swordsmith from the 11th-12th centuries; the weapons are in display in museums. It's quite possible that the swordsmith's name is based on the legends. Dead_Duck confirms that "Masamune" refers to swords crafted by Goro Nyudo Masamune (around 1265-1358), one of the most famous Japanese swordsmiths.
That site has an awesome name origins page.
-
Ybrik's rhyme went like...
"Dreamstone has good synergy with Lavos' energy."
It apparently is able to conduct the power of Lavos more easily than other materials.
-
My question is whether or not Lavos' energy is the only type of energy the dreamstone can absorb. I don't think that this would make sense, being that the dreamstone was present before Lavos crashed into the planet.
-
Interesting. Robo's sensors pick up spiritual energy from the Masamune once it is forged.
Ok, it is confirmed. In Frog's flashback of being transformed, he falls from the mount to a bank by the river -- and near that bank is a treasure chest found in Denadoro! Thus, either Square used the Denadorean map for the flashback, or this may be a suggestion that this event truly occurred there.
Also, might the Badge of Courage be the Hero's Medal? Before calling it the former, Cyrus speaks to King Guardia that it is time to retrieve the Medal and find the mythical sword. The events thereafter transpire one after the other; Frog later calls the Hero's Medal the 'Medal' before addressing it by its full name.
-
Another story says that there was a blacksmith named "Masamune", and his sword was so sharp that you could drive it into the ground in a lake, and leaves that floated by would float around the Masamune due to its holy power.
Ah yeah, I've a heard a version of this one. In the version I heard, it was actually a contest between the swordmakers Masamune and Murasame. They both stuck their swords in a stream as leaves floated by on the water. Murasame's sword cut the leaves neatly in half as they drifted by, but Masamune's sword actually pushed the leaves away due to it's spiritual power. Which is all rather funny, because I dimly recall (and I may be wrong on this) that Edge's best sword in FFIV was the Masamune, and his second best sword was the Murasame :P .
-
Considering that the place where the battle between Magus and Cyrus took place is a pixel by pixel match with the small ledge outside the Masamune cave in the mountain, I would tend to agree that the event occured there. Plus, all Magus would have to do is turn around and return the sword piece to the cave.
Now, a quick thought about the master system:
Since Cyrus was considered the last master of the Masamune I would assume that he would have been the last person to touch the blade before its isolation in the mountains. However, unless the Masamune simply decided to float back into the cave from right outside (A power it had never demonstrated before), that would mean that either Magus or Ozzie (Probably Ozzie, considering Magus probably wont touch it) would have to pick the sword up and place it in the cave. Since the Masamune doesn't consider either of them a master, consider this a point towards the fact that a master system exists, and that it requires more then a touch to become a master.
-
If it means anything, the Masamune can move itself and perhaps even teleport, as demonstrated by the incident with Dario. It moves by itself and apparently teleports into the area.
-
Okay, here's my theory; shoot holes in it all you want: After Lavos was defeated, Masa and Mune went to sleep, since the perceived threat ws over. Frog then left the Masamune to rest. Time passes; Porre rises up and conquers Guardia, and the Masamune was seized. Now since Lavos was defeated (in a sense) and Masa and Mune were sleeping, the sword became unstable. Also, since Mase and Mune were asleep at the wheel, anyone could wield the Masamune. After the Porre army used it on the battlefield, the sword evetually became so unstable split in two, essentially making two swords. There was the good one, Einlanzer; and the evil one, the "Demonic" Masamune; which reflects the dual nature of the original Masamune's potential.
As for the Hero's Medal, suppose it has nothing much to do with the Masamune, but more to do with it's previous wielders? Perhaps it is illustrious and unknown (unknown in the sense that it isn't covered in the plot) history that gives it it's power?
-
The Medal might be more psychosomatic than anything. Also, the Einlanzer is confirmed to have been forged by the Dragonians in El Nido.
WHile in a chat with Aitrus and JustinS1985, we arrived at the subject of the Masamune's history. Is it not odd that the Masamune resides at the Isle of the Damned during 1017 A.D. in both dimensions? Radius found it either in Zenan or in the Divine Dragon Falls, and slayed Garai; burying him at the Isle caused it to mutate. There are two theories on why the Masamune is there:
1.) ZeaLitY: The Masamune, being warped and twisted, sought out such a defiled place.
2.) Aitrus: When Radius buried him, he might have left the sword with Garai to avoid keeping it and risking the corruption that it already had.
I believe Aitrus has solved this one.
-
This draws a new question: If the Masamune can teleport, what draws it to the Denadoro mountains and the Divine Dragon/Isle of the Damned area to begin with? What was so special that caused the Denadoro mountains to become its home in the first place?
-
err
If I remember well, Crono's party cross a cliff at Denadoro Mountain, a cliff with lots of wind. Doesn't Masa (or is it Mune :wink: ?) say that he "wants to become the wind" or something like that?
-
That's a good explanation. I originally thought you were thinking of the winds at Death Peak, but I searched the script and found:
The famous Denadoro Mountain winds
have grown mild.
Well done.
-
Could it be possible that the evil Masamune from CC is not the same sword as the one Cyrus and Glenn used in CT?
In the original time-line, Melchior may never put the Red Knife into the Mammon Machine and may finish forging it into a sword quietly. This sword, Masamune, was the one Cyrus and Glenn/Frog knew and used.
When Crono came to 12000BC though, Crono took the Red Knife and plunged it in the Mammon Machine. This sword would be different than the original Masamune, being filled with loads of Lavos evil energy.
When the Ocean Palace fell, we know Schala and the Mammon Machine were thrown into the Darkness Beyond Time, and Schala eventually fused with Lavos. The Mammon Machine though, was somehow brought back to the palace, as Crono fights it inside the Black Omen. However, the Masamune is not there on the MM. Could the sword have been somehow brought from the Mammon Machine inside the DBT all the way to 1005AD (or some times before)?
...or can't it because it can't never replace the former Masamune, because of the Time Bastard theorem?
-
Hm. If the Red Knife Masamune, or "Mammon Blade" as Radical Dreamer might call it, were placed into the Darkness Beyond Time physically...
The Mammon Blade would cease to exist the moment the first broken half of the Masamune was taken through time to Melchior -- 600 A.D. This depends on whether the Mammon Blade could retain existence if it were introduced into 1005 A.D.
-
All right, this is my theory on the matter (and don't worry, it's not really outlandish like some of the other things I've said, I don't think). However, it will be neccessary that I make one allusion to Tolkien as I am wont to do. Anyway, here it is.
Firstly, the red stone that is called Dreamstone. I have always taken this to be some ancient magical mineral, perhaps come from the earth itself. Now as this relates to the Masamune...Melchior knew that Lavos was a danger, and that to attempt to take power from the Demon would result in catastrophe. To that end he knew that which he and the other masters had created, the Mammon machine, must be destroyed. Now whatever strength the Mammon machine might have, I would assume only a thing of great power could destory it. Thus Melchior took what remained of the Dreamstone and forged a knife. Now in my theory, the power of the Dreamstone is such that it can, in either the spiritual or physical realm, or maybe both, create incarnations of one's thoughts and desires, at least if forged in a certain way. In this I see the stone, when forged into the knife by Melchior, not unlike Sauron's ring: into it are poured the power and strength of the one forging it. But of course the motives of Melchior are different. In his zeal to end the menace and do right, he pours into the sword his courage, knowledge, and compassion. Thus, by the power of the stone of dreams, are born the three spirits: Masa, of his might and power; Mune, of his knowledge; and lastly Doreen, of his compassion and dreams (she strikes me to inheret both). In essence the stone give physical manifestation to Melchior's will. This is then enchained within the knife. So when he give it to Crono to use against the Mammon machine, he is in some manner giving his own strength to the fight, contained within the magical sword. (for whatever reason that I cannot speculate upon, however, Doreen is absent. Perhaps the spells or whatever do not bind the will fully to the sword, but only partially. Or maybe in the destroying of the Machine she would have little part. I do not know.). Yet there is more to the matter. The stone, as I have said, forged in that certain way, takes its power from the hopes and dreams of its holder; initially in the forging this was Melchior, and so his mark is strongest on the blade. Yet other things can to a lesser degree affect it as well, I think (though not change its innate being, that is of three spirits). When Crono wields it, his own hopes are put forth into it. The knife itself is not a knife, per say, I would say. Rather what it "really" is three spirits; the blade is merely a manifestation of both mood and will of those three. Thus Crono's will augmenting theirs changes its shape, because the will has changed slightly. So it becomes the Masamune (though it always was the "Masamune"; it is merely a new incarnation based on what has been put into it. How someone has used it, to borrow the terminoligy that the two say when you meet them in the Dendorado mountains). Like this it stays for thousands of years. Doreen, perhaps purposeless in the attack on Lavos, remains absent and wandering (and maybe dreaming, as is often her wont). Finally we come to the battle with Magus. He shatters the corporeal manifestation, and damages the strength of the spell that holds the spirits, who are the Will of Melchior, to the sword. But Melchior in time reforges his creation, and it is again how it should look (this is my absolute favorite quirk in CT. At the beginning of the game, he knows EXACTLY who you are at the fair, having seen you on the mountain later; but on the mountain, all is reversed.). Anyway, battles come and go, and we come to Porre (I would expect its potency against Magus is merely legend; it is, after all, the greatest sword in Chrono legend). Whoever takes it, I will not guess, uses it. Now as Masa and Mune so aptly said, it is not WHO wields it, but HOW. Because the strength of the sword is based on will. The original design of Melchior cannot be broken, but it can be corrupted. Whoever wields it uses it evilly, and has a will of darkness; this is poured into the sword, and due to its nature (which I have already thoerorized on), being a manifestation of the will, changes into the crooked blade we see in CC (I believe it being red is merely a coincidence, red being the color of blood and war). So great was whatever will guided it that unless someone of great will held it thereafter, the effect of the sword would work in reverse; rather than the will being made manifest in the blade, the darkness would lay hold of and ensnare whoever held it. Radius fell prey to this, because he had not the strength to shape it to his own will. It could not fully control him, but it echoed darkness in his heart. But when the Masamune is beaten by Serge, the evil will that had laid hold on them and dominated their being was shattered; Serge's will replaced it, though perhaps Riddle had a little to do with it. Then awoke Doreen, appalled at the darkness the two had lived in (she, likely, was banished from the blade, or weakened may be better; she, being of compassion, would have no place in the dark plans of whatever master held it. Without a will being placed into her, her power was weakened severely though, as said, being still innately born of Melchior's will she could not be fully destroyed without utterly annhilating the blade; she, and the other two ARE the blade). She chides her brothers, and as Serge, a seemingly compassionate soul, holds the sword then, her power is returned anew. In fact, I would wager it is greater than the other two; in my opinion only, I think he is more compassionate than he is knowledgeable or strong. Now, it is not fully who wields the blade, but how they use it (to quote the twain again); yet even so I think the desire and the will is what shape it, rather than true events. It is a sword based on the force of will (which, I think, shapes intended actions, and thus "how someone uses it; an evil person will use it for evil, and good for good). This effectively ends what I wanted to say on the Masamune.
Not much on the Einlanzer though. I think this to be the equivalent of the Masamune, and so in all respects similar; it is akin, I think, in the way that Terra Tower and Chronopolis are. At some point the victorious Reptites, even as the humans do in their time stream, forge a sword out of dreamstone. Whatever dreams of the smith there are are never fully explained; perhaps they are as unknowable as a Dragonian mind is to a human. But whatever may be, it has the power to circumvent the evil will of the Masamune, because whatever will holds it is stronger. Perhaps it was better forged, because even though it rests aside resentful Dario it is not darkened. Also, whatever spirits rest in it do not make themselves manifest, or perhaps are incapable of doing so to human eyes. It is thus not as potent a weapon as the Masamune in human hands, but would be equivalent in Dragonian. That is about all I can say on the Einlanzer.
Anyway...what do you think of my thoery? I think it fits nicely, personally.
-
Hi, just wanted to butt in with my own theory about the Masamune. From what I've read in this thread, this hasn't been mentioned, but if I've somehow overlooked something, I give you all permission to kick me in the shins.
What if there are two Masamunes? By the time you get to Zeal, get the Ruby Knife, and prepare to destroy the Mammon Machine, you've already acquired the Masamune from 600 A.D., so this Masamune would be exempt from events in 12,000 B.C. that would change the sword in 600 A.D. and beyond.
Perhaps in the unaltered timeline, the Mammon Machine was never stabbed with the Ruby Knife and instead sent the Gurus, Janus, and Schala through time because the machine couldn't handle the power being channeled into it (I can't remember the exact dialogue, but in one of the scenes at the Ocean Palace--I can't remember if this occurred in the altered or unaltered timelines, or both--, someone, possibly Schala says something that I interpreted as it being too dangerous to power the MM to its extent, but Queen Zeal makes Schala do it anyways. Also, I believe that in the scene from the unaltered timeline, you never actually see anyone stab the MM before teleporting the Gurus, Janus, and Schala)
So, when all is said and done, Frog goes back to 600 A.D. and lives out his life, and hides "his" Masamune somewhere. But, the Masamune from the altered timeline is still lurking about somewhere, possibly ending up in Porre. Over time, someone finds the sword and believes it to be the Masamune (which, it is, technically), becomes a general of the Porre army, which was raised to defeat Guardia for...some reason (it's never really explained, after all, we just know it happened), and eventually succeeds in their goal of bringing ruin to Guardia. Then, once Porre decides to move in on El Nido, the general who helped defeat Guardia carries the Masamune with him into the region, and the sword eventually becomes fully evil and flips out on him.
As for the cosmetic difference between what becomes the Masamune in CT and the Evil Masamune in CC, I just thought that the look was changed to represent its evil (perhaps, like someone said, the power of Lavos that it had been exposed to corrupted it over time).
So, uh, shoot some holes in my theory or something.
EDIT: Did anyone notice the difference in the Masamune's look in the The Masamune! and Life Skips a Beat cutscenes in the PSX CT? It's probably unimportant, but I thought I'd mention it.