Chrono Compendium
Enhasa Halls - Chrono Series Analysis => Magic, Elements, and Technology => Topic started by: Discoman on December 01, 2005, 09:17:09 pm
-
I was wondering, how was the Masamune created in the orginal timeline? Remember the Masamune was made to try to stop the Mannon Machine. But without Magus and Crono and co, their is no reason for the Masamune to be created, considering there was no one to warn the Gurus about what would happen.
-
Well... Maybe Melchior had begun work on his Red Knife, which, during the time leading up to the Ocean Palace incident, became the sword we know as Masamune?
Though, I've also heard some better ideas, like that Melchior threw the knife into the Machine in the original timeline, which makes sense out of desperation.
... I'm still not entirely sure how you turn a basic red knife into a fancy broadsword by throwing it into a hunk of metal, albeit magical metal, but, eh. Different strokes.
-
Melchior knew what would become of all of it. Even without the CT crew, he still made the knife to stop the Mammon Machine.
-
In the original timeline, the Guru's were not banished and were at the Ocean Palace. Melchior had made the knife prior to secretly destroy the Machine.
Since the knife is made of Dreamstone, and dreamstone absorbs energy, the knife absorbed a hunk of Lavos' energy from the Mammon Machine and turned into the Masamune. I think that because Masa and Mune are Melchior's dreams, them by merging or becoming a part of the sword caused it to turn into a broadsword or something more powerful.
-
The most possible theory is that Melchior, who was at the Ocean Palace, trusted the Red Knife into the Mammon Machine instead of Crono.
Another theory is that since he wasn't trapped in the Moutain of Woe, Melchior had all the time he needed to finish his work with the Dreamstone, forging it into a proper magical sword without any contact with the Mammon Machine. That's assuming that he didn't absolutely needed the Mammon Machine's powers (since the Red Knife was made to destroy the MM anyway), but that could explain why the Masamune is holy in the original time-line but kind of evil (= tainted by the MM/Lavos) in the modified time-lines. Of course TTI disproves this part though (the modified Masamune should disappear because the original sword time-traveled).
-
Of course TTI disproves this part though (the modified Masamune should disappear because the original sword time-traveled).
But would TTI not work because it is an inatimate object?
-
Woudn't it be a sentient object seeing as Masa and Mune power it from within?
-
Woudn't it be a sentient object seeing as Masa and Mune power it from within?
But since its a new time line, would the olde masamune just stay the way it was while the MM Masamune just exist in this new timeline but not the Lavos?
-
Hmm I think it would stay the MM Masamune because of TTI, which kinda makes me wonder. When the Masamune is transformed who recovers it and puts it in Denarado MTs.?
-
Hmm I think it would stay the MM Masamune because of TTI, which kinda makes me wonder. When the Masamune is transformed who recovers it and puts it in Denarado MTs.?
I just had a thought, maybe the monsters stole it while everything was crumbling down. And it probably was held as a powerful weapon they could use against the humans.
-
Or, to avoid all the bullcrap arguments about TTI, Melchior just threw the knife in on his own.
-
Or, to avoid all the bullcrap arguments about TTI, Melchior just threw the knife in on his own.
Thanks for repeating a fifth time what everybody on this topic said.
Hmm I think it would stay the MM Masamune because of TTI, which kinda makes me wonder. When the Masamune is transformed who recovers it and puts it in Denarado MTs.?
To exit the Ocean Palace, it probably just teleported like it does many times in CC (and maybe in CT). How it got to Denadoro Mts is probably irrelevant though, it might have known many heroes and adventures between 12,000 BC and 600 AD... or Masa just went there because he "wanted to be the wind" (a villager does say there are strong winds in Denadoro).
-
Thanks for repeating a fifth time what everybody on this topic said.
You're Welcome :D
-
Hmm I think it would stay the MM Masamune because of TTI, which kinda makes me wonder. When the Masamune is transformed who recovers it and puts it in Denarado MTs.?
Probably Masa and Mune took it there. It is a sword that has its own will. It probably hid there and waited to be taken by somebody who was worth it. Or didn't wait at all.
-
Or maybe it landed there after the fall of Zeal, just like all the sealed Boxes.
-
The Sealed Boxes were most likely found by people, and since they could not open them, they kept them as heirlooms.
-
The Sealed Boxes were most likely found by people, and since they could not open them, they kept them as heirlooms.
Yes, but they had to land before the people took them.
-
The Sealed Boxes were most likely found by people, and since they could not open them, they kept them as heirlooms.
Yes, but they had to land before the people took them.
It's more likely that they were in the ocean for a few centuries.
-
Yes the geography wasn't exactly stationary from 12000 B.C. - 600 A.D. I can imagine that perhaps Denadoro was underwater as well.
-
I still think that the Masamune was used by many heroes between 12,000BC and 600AD. Or at least one person before Cyrus. No one in Zeal knew anything about the Masamune or the Red Knife (heck the Masamune was precisely created when Zeal was destroyed...), but by 600AD the sword has become a legend. So it must have been discovered at some point between the 2 eras.
-
I agree, for people to call it the legendary masamune or even know its exact location point to the idea of it being used by many heroes before Frog claimed it.
-
right... i read all topic... It is that dreamstone is lavos's weakness to drained all the energy with seals, magus and schala, anyone use lavos's linked with magics...
i see magus's magic is trained sign to absorb lavos then Magus appear to put wrath absorb to lavos for all more energy to put crono's death instant...
dreamstone <-- Drain Energy <-- lavos get upset.
magus use wrath magic ---> Drain Energy ---> lavos is ready to go.
:shock: I was lost at "i read all topic". Could you be a bit more clear?
-
I still don't see why it just has to be Lavos's energy that charged the Red Knife into the Masamune (along with the whole "Connection with Lavos" that supposedly corrupts it).
I am willing to be that that Masamune in the original timeline was built exactly as it should have been and that Melechior had thrust it in himself. No alteration occured because of the fact that the sword was completed and that Masa and Mune were safely inside, safeguarding it.
So why does the Red Knife change? Well first we know that Masa and Mune WEREN"T in it as we see them in the Ocean Palace before hand. They enter when it turns into the completed sword. Also there's the fact that Lavos's very presence has a habit of altering time and space. The completed sword though is an object which can all be used to play with time (as shown when Serge travels back to save kid) suggesting an immunity to Lavos's tampering. Of course just an idea now, but seriously here. Why Lavos need be involved?
As for its corruption? The Fall of Guardia, the fact that it was stolen, and the resulting chaos (possible massacre of people). Its called the "Blood Stained" Sword of Evil so obviously it has a bloody history. Naturally that alone could have turned it evil, which would go with the motif and lesson of the sword. That what you do has consequences.
-
Gawd, people. The Masamune was not corrupted by Lavos. Lavos energy = the planets energy. It's being near Lavos for exposed amount of times, like being mentally connected with him, that is what has been shown countless times to corrupt people. Eg - Schala, Zeal, Dragon God (possibly because it seems that only their energy was absorbed, breaking them up).
-
Lavos' energy is clearly distinct from that of the planet. Thus the switch in Zeal from the Sun Stone to the Mammon Machine as the source of power.
-
There would have been no corruption in the human evolution if Lavos' energy was the same as the planet's.
-
Even still, if Lavos was the one who corrupted the Masamune, it seems odd to be that it'd take 13000 something years, and then Masa and Mune just convienently fall asleep and let it go evil.
Hence why I'm going with my Tsukumogami Masamune theory.
-
Lavos' energy is clearly distinct from that of the planet. Thus the switch in Zeal from the Sun Stone to the Mammon Machine as the source of power.
No. The Sun stone is from the power of the sun. Hello, we had to god damn charge it for 65,000,000 years in a place where the sun never rested for it to recharge.
The energy that Lavos absorbs from the Planet is still his. He can use it for any purpose, just like the pendant can channal that energy for any use too. Energy can be converted. Energy doesn't contain "evil" or "good". The only mention of something like that was about Crono and co's aura of energy being weaker than what the Zealians possess and Magus' aura being sad and that he would oneday destroy everything that he loves in that state.
There would have been no corruption in the human evolution if Lavos' energy was the same as the planet's.
It wasn't about his energy. It was about the flame having the power by itself to enhance things. It changed their evolution by being a catalyst or something and letting them evolve faster. Or simply that their link with Lavos, speaking to him or w/e opened up their minds.
-
No. The Sun stone is from the power of the sun. Hello, we had to god damn charge it for 65,000,000 years in a place where the sun never rested for it to recharge.
The Sun Stone is referred to as "elemental power of this tired planet." And it recharges in a palace where there is sunshine even when the sun isn't even shining. The sun light is clearly magical and artificial.
The energy that Lavos absorbs from the Planet is still his. He can use it for any purpose, just like the pendant can channal that energy for any use too. Energy can be converted. Energy doesn't contain "evil" or "good".
Yes, but it can be Negative and Positive, and Lavos' energy has only shown Negative.
It wasn't about his energy. It was about the flame having the power by itself to enhance things. It changed their evolution by being a catalyst or something and letting them evolve faster. Or simply that their link with Lavos, speaking to him or w/e opened up their minds.
And how does the Frozen Flame work? Lavos' Energy.
-
Quote~
I still think that the Masamune was used by many heroes between 12,000BC and 600AD. Or at least one person before Cyrus. No one in Zeal knew anything about the Masamune or the Red Knife (heck the Masamune was precisely created when Zeal was destroyed...), but by 600AD the sword has become a legend. So it must have been discovered at some point between the 2 eras.
Yeah i too agree with this statment because Cyrus seaches for the Legendary Masamune but now im wondering...prob couldn't happen but..... what if a Mystic was one of the many righteous owners of the masamune? It might have had strength from within LOL!
-
It could have been anybody as long as they passed Masa and Mune's Test. One thing though...I doubt it was MANY heroes. Something interesting to note:
CYRUS: "Yes, it's time we took back the
Medal from the Frog King.
And I'd like to see that mythical
sword for myself."
"That Mythical Sword." Maybe its just conversation, but perhaps he didn't actually know the name of the sword? Why is this relevant? Well it would appear that the name didn't survive in the "Legendary" end of things. The name isn't mentioned in the flashback until on the Denadoro Mts which would make sense if they didn't know it before and learned it there. Maybe not that notable, but we can almost count on the idea that they were obscure legends and that whatever heroes wielded it were few and far between. The last was far away enough from Cyrus to make its name obscure.
Thats what we're missing on the Compendium. An article on the Masamune and its mechanics, creation, etc.
-
Yeah i agree with u there this has givin me inspiration to do an rpg2k3 game about an imp who gains the masamune!
The title will be called "Sir Imp" (http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b153/KuzouKiriyama/Chrono%20Trigger/ImpSpit.gif)
-
I might be wrong (someone correct me if I am) but when Chrono and the others try to get the Masamune, doesn't Masa (or Mune) say something like: "Only Cyrus made it this far."?
So in this case Cyrus was the only one that passed the test and rightfully obtained the Masamune.
So maybe it got the name legendary/mythical from the fact that no one ad been able to pass the test and wield it.
-
Yeah, Jonathan, that is what Masa/Mune said.
Someone mentioned that Masa and Mune were out of the sword in Ocean palace- they're out of the sword in Denadoro Mts. too. If they were created to aid in the destruction of the MM but not bound to the sword as such then maybe the MM bound them to the sword, creating the Masamune? But, anyway.
I also agree with Jonathan that it was considered legendary due to it being so hard to acquire.
On a slightly related note, I have heard that some people believe that Dalton stole the Masamune and destroyed Guardia- what are the reasons for this? And also, do Masa and Mune only possess the power to stop the Masamune from being retrieved from the stone, or do you think that they can stop it being used? Because in all honesty if they possessed the power to stop a person from using the blade, why would they let an asshole like Dalton near it?
Sorry if this is considered unrelated but it is to do with the Masamune.
-
Only a small minority considers Dalton to be the abuser of the Masamune. The general consensus is that he's DEAD, much less in the future.
-
Oh, good. Thanks for that. It's all Faf's fault for telling me that loads of people think Dalton destroyed Guardia ¬.¬
-
It's not that many people support this Dalton theory, but it's that it's one of the few theory about the Fall which was formulated and backed up, apart from the "We know that we don't know" theory.
http://www.chronocompendium.com/Term/Fall_of_Guardia_%28Fighter_within%29.html
-
Oh God, I have to whine every time I do an analysis review. The middle page of this topic makes me cry inside.
-
this topic makes my brain hurt from all the repeated statements and Ideas as if no one preread the topic before posting...
-
this topic makes my brain hurt from all the repeated statements and Ideas as if no one preread the topic before posting...
Try having to read all new analysis posts to update the site. All those "haha good theory" and "wait if crono went back in time, and magus went back in time, and lucca went forward, burrito?" posts accumulate quickly...