Chrono Compendium
Enhasa Halls - Chrono Series Analysis => Time, Space, and Dimensions => Topic started by: ZeaLitY on December 24, 2003, 01:08:38 pm
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V Translanka brought up on gamefaqs that if Schala retained her pendant, if could have never been passed down the Guardia line. I tried to cover this using the fact that time travelers are shielded even from prevention of their own creation, but merely stepping out of time would have allowed a future from 12,000 B.C. onward in which the pendant was not passed down to exist.
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Then I believe we may have the only true plot hole in existence found. I do not wish to resign my hope for consistency, but there appears to be no resolution to this
Wait! I think I have the answer, and it is safeguarded by our axioms!
We must beg the question: did the pendant really do anything other than serve to begin Chrono Trigger? Is there even any mention of it in 600 A.D.? No! This means that its only function and apparent use in history is that of allow Marle and Crono to enter 600 A.D. to set in motion the events of Chrono Trigger. This is what the plot hole operates on -- that Schala keeping her pendant at the Tesseract prevents this from happening. However, we also know that time travelers are shielded from effects they wrought on their past! Thus, it would not matter either way, as the Grandfather Paradox does not apply, and the pendant would have only had one use on a time traveler who is shielded from the effects of her own meddling! Thus, Marle and her actions are preserved even though the item that caused them no longer exists in its past context.
HURRAH FOR CONSISTENCY! We have saved Masato Kato and the Chrono series' reputation!
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If you check my Chrono Cross thread of the same fasion, I think someone brought up an even better answer. In that after Kid was done with the Pendent, it was given back to Schala. After thinking this through, I believe this to be that simple answer.
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Yes, but if Schala had the pendant to begin with and kept it to give to Kid later, it would still be absent for a few thousand years in history, meaning Trigger could once again not occur and Kid would not exist to have it given to and returned from in the first place.
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Are we sure the Astral Amulet from CC and the Pendant from CT are even one and the same?
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Are we sure the Astral Amulet from CC and the Pendant from CT are even one and the same?
Are we sure Marle's Pendant and Schala's Pendant are even one and the same?
I believe the answer is yes, but I can't quite remember. If it is yes, then I have no fuggin' clue.
Mayhaps there is some crazy answer based upon the Pendant going haywire either naturally or with some "divine intervention," that infamous term, and creating a Gate only to get sucked into the Tesseract by accident, just as Schala was after the destruction of the Mammon Machine, and wind up returning to Schala conveniently in time for her to pass it on to Kid.
Mayhaps we shall never know.
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Yeah, they're all the same. Only one pendant was made by Melchior, and this is confirmed by the fact that only Schala could activate the Mammon Machine with it; I'm sure Queen Zeal would have jumped at the chance to do it herself as soon as possible if she weren't required. Also, several Zealians remark that Marle's is similar to Schala's (similar, as in mistaking it outright for the princess's. Melchior does this too).
From somewhere in Cross, I suddenly believed the crackpot notion that Lucca forged the Astral Amulet. Although Lucca is certainly capable of building incomplete Time Eggs, it is said otherwise that Schala gives Kid her pendant.
Thus, apparently, Dreamstone...can have time-altering effects. Or at least amplify them? Wha? We have a choice here after researching this a bit. Either Dreamstone has the power to alter time, or Schala/Kid/Marle use it to confuct and amplify a power that has time altering abilities. Ok, #2 seems correct; Lavos' emanations were notorious for causing disruptions and half-baked gates. Since he still resided within the planet during the events of Chrono Cross, perhaps Kid's pendant only used 'Mammon energy,' as I call it, to have the effects of rewinding time to a safer position.
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Actually, I was never really sure if the Astral Amulet and Schala/Nadia's Pendent were in fact the same. It never outright says these two things are, in fact, the same. There are slight hints that could make you believe this, but nothing outright.
I thought this because I didn't think the Astral Amulet and Kid's Necklace were the same. As you can see, her Necklace is a purple color, one like a teardrop, and the others almost like large pearls (of the same purple color). The Astral Amulet in the Item Menu...Damn...
After looking at the Astral Amulet's Item pic, I realized that might be wrong...The Astral Amulet's Item pic is that of a small bag with string. On the bag is a very familier pattern (the one on the locked doors in Zeal) and the description is "A small, star-colored talisman". Looks like the Astral Amulet IS Schala/Nadia's Pendent.
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Hmm.... I held onto the half-baked idea that somehow, AFTER CC, the pendant makes its way into Marle's line by being carried by a random time traveler, a la Soul Reaver. (I need to play those games; I'm taking that example on faith)
I guess some of those other things could work too. >_>
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The scene that show what hapened in the original timeline (in North Cape event) , just after Gaspar end in the EoT, some shining thing fall near him.
That may be the Chrono Trigger or,perhaps, the pendant.
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I don't think it was something near him, I think it was simply his arrival into the EoT...Or if anything, that it was the Chrono Trigger...I thought we'd already discussed this. It's just the grandfather paradox stuff...Marle already got the Pendant in the second timeline, before they changed things involving Schala, so, Schala retains her Pendent, and, I suppose, later when the Gates close and everything's done, Marle's Pendent gets Time Bastard'd (if I may use ZeaLitY's words).
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In truth, there's two doubts about Marle's pendant:
if the pendant was passed down through the Guardia royal family as some national treasure or a personal object (what could indicate why Marle used it out of the castle).
Another is how it end in the Guardia family, through Schala or other person?
Another thing is:
Was the pendant that appear with Marle after the Ocean Palace's incident the one that Crono was with or the Schala one.
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Another thing is:
Was the pendant that appear with Marle after the Ocean Palace's incident the one that Crono was with or the Schala one.
Wow. That is a good question. I'd not considered that before. Then that begs the question....if it was the Schala one, what happened to the Crono one?
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Another thing is:
Was the pendant that appear with Marle after the Ocean Palace's incident the one that Crono was with or the Schala one.
Wow. That is a good question. I'd not considered that before. Then that begs the question....if it was the Schala one, what happened to the Crono one?
Schala says something like she's using the last of her pendant's power to teleport the party out of the place. So it should be her normal pendant since Crono's one was recharged more recently at the Mammon Machine. The party gets back Crono's pendant only after they wake up at the "last village", that's what the old guy says I think.
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Some say that the energy sphere above Crono when he use the "Mega" Luminaire is the pendant. What happen to that sphere ?
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The amulet and the pendant are two seperate things. If you remember from CT, Schala gives Janus the Amulet in a room in Zeal palace. You walk in and Janus talks to his sister about the black wind blowing and Schala gives Janus the amulet telling him that if anything were to happen to him he would be protected. However, later on she has a pendant that she uses the power up on to send you out of the ocean palace when crono dies.
That raises the question of how the two got to where they did. My guess would be that Magus gives Kid the Amulet in the future. Since there were pictures of the CT cast at the orphanage I would infer that they had been there before and seen kid. As for the Pendant, it could have stayed in the ocean palace, been preserved by the entity, and sent into the future. I'm not sure about this but I believe that a comment is made on the pendant when you go to 600 A.D. When marle is confused for the queen they say she looks young but has the same pendant.(Still not sure on that one)
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You're wrong there for a couple reasons...The Astral Amulet and the Pendant are in fact the same thing.
Schala gives Janus an Amulet, yes, but that Amulet is not by any means made of Dreamstone, and only protects status, nothing more.
If you've played the Chrono Trigger in Chronicles, you'll notice in the scene when Kid appears that she has the Pendant with her.
Also, in Chrono Cross, Kid mentions that it was with her since she was a baby, and that it helped her and blahdy blah blah hippity-hoo-ha...
Plus, if you'll look at the Astral Amulet's picture in the Chrono Cross Item List, you'll notice a shway little Zealian symbol on it's pouch...NEAT!
So, Schala gave Kid her Pendant when she sent her whereever or whatever...
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Some say that the energy sphere above Crono when he use the "Mega" Luminaire is the pendant. What happen to that sphere ?
I'm not sure, after Schala sends the party out of the Palace, the energy sphere remains in the Palace. I basically have 3 opinions on what happend. 1) The elder of the last village says that the pendant was found by their side, as if guarding them, so maybe Crono's spirit exists in the pendant. 2) After Schala sent the party away she saw that the pendant was still on the floor, figured it would be the only keepsake of Crono's they had so she used that pendants power to send itself to the last village. 3) The energy sphere rising isnt the pendant at all, but the party seeing the Time Egg being activated, opening the gate and allowing the future party to switch Crono and the doll clone. What we see on the palace floor afterwards is just the remains of the broken Time Egg.
So yea, I think the third one is a whole new thought altogether, tell me what you guys think.
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The third one doesn't work because you can't see something that hasn't happened yet...First, Crono dies, then they replace him. He doesn't initially dissapear because he's been replaced.
I figured that the Pendant had it's own spirit, not Crono, either the Entity/Planet or possibly Doreen.
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The third one doesn't work because you can't see something that hasn't happened yet...First, Crono dies, then they replace him. He doesn't initially dissapear because he's been replaced.
I figured that the Pendant had it's own spirit, not Crono, either the Entity/Planet or possibly Doreen.
You are right, the Pendant's spirit cannot be Crono's because if it were, Crono's eventual ressurection would mean that two Crono souls exist and that just doesnt work.
If you look at the anime sequence in the psx version, Crono isnt firing off a "mega-luminaire" at all, hes actually being completely beaten and doesnt hurt Lavos a bit, even though the game with its limitations makes it look like hes calling up some great lightning spell. The pendant is made of dreamstone and perhaps Crono's last thought before he expired was the safety of his friends. So the spirit of the newly M.Machine empowered pendant took everyone , except Zeal and Lavos, out of Lavos's pocket dimension and back to the Palace. Then it hung around until Lavos absorbed Schala and transported itself to the party at the Last Village, where the Elder mentions that the pendant was by them as if guarding them. There...I think that works. The only thing I can't account for is why Crono's pendant wouldnt simply send Schala to the last village as well, but then again, Schala chose to remain, considering with her around another Mammon Machine would be a possibility.
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The third one doesn't work because you can't see something that hasn't happened yet...First, Crono dies, then they replace him. He doesn't initially dissapear because he's been replaced.
I figured that the Pendant had it's own spirit, not Crono, either the Entity/Planet or possibly Doreen.
You are right, the Pendant's spirit cannot be Crono's because if it were, Crono's eventual ressurection would mean that two Crono souls exist and that just doesnt work.
If you look at the anime sequence in the psx version, Crono isnt firing off a "mega-luminaire" at all, hes actually being completely beaten and doesnt hurt Lavos a bit, even though the game with its limitations makes it look like hes calling up some great lightning spell. The pendant is made of dreamstone and perhaps Crono's last thought before he expired was the safety of his friends. So the spirit of the newly M.Machine empowered pendant took everyone , except Zeal and Lavos, out of Lavos's pocket dimension and back to the Palace. Then it hung around until Lavos absorbed Schala and transported itself to the party at the Last Village, where the Elder mentions that the pendant was by them as if guarding them. There...I think that works. The only thing I can't account for is why Crono's pendant wouldnt simply send Schala to the last village as well, but then again, Schala chose to remain, considering with her around another Mammon Machine would be a possibility.
I'm sure that the pendant was transported by the entity, nothing else really makes any sense. I don't think that the pendant has a mind of its own, even if it is forged with dreamstone. I say this because of what happened at the fair when Marle was originally teleported. The pendant was defintely not charged at that time, and yet it somehow did not teleport with Marle. But it did teleport with Crono, kinda odd dont'cha think?
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With Marle, it's just around her neck, we don't even know if it's really even touching her skin. Crono holds onto the Pendant tightly, as instructed by Lucca. Also, the fact that it didn't go with her could have been the result of the Entity, but I don't think that that possibility refutes the possibility that the Pendant has it's own spirit.
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True, but it makes it a lot harder to make that case if it really is the entity's intervention that keeps the pendant in 1000 A.D.
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But why? The Entity did stuff to prevent it from dying out, right? So, why does it doing anything change whether or not the Pendant has it's own spirit? The way I see it, at both times when the Pendant is near (in CC at the time of getting the Mastermune), Doreen is also...Coincidence? Perhaps...I like to think that she is in fact the spirit of the Pendant, at the very least, Schala's.
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er i just rememberd this if schala gave her pendent to kid the one you see in the third final fmv in the good ending when she cloned her self and since marles pendent is schalas how did it get from kid 1020 AD to when ever thr royel family of Guardia got it or is marle's pendent a completely different one since in zeal one peson remarks that "your pendent looks just LIKE schala's" so mabye they're two different pendents
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Guardia may not have the pendant anymore, but Marle would keep hers due to time traveler's immunity.
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But why? The Entity did stuff to prevent it from dying out, right? So, why does it doing anything change whether or not the Pendant has it's own spirit? The way I see it, at both times when the Pendant is near (in CC at the time of getting the Mastermune), Doreen is also...Coincidence? Perhaps...I like to think that she is in fact the spirit of the Pendant, at the very least, Schala's.
Oh yea, dammit I really need to finish Cross. I forgot that Doreen is proposed as the keeper of the pendant, so to speak.
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doreen is the keeper ofthe pendent??? where does it say of suggest that ive never seen it suggest that anywhere and ive played both CC and CT lot of times
and with the pendant no one really answerd my questions marles pendent seemed t just move through time time from whatever time after kid had it but if that was true it would cause the time line to screw up so where did it come from unless it is a compleately different pendent from schalas/kids
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What are you talking about? Razor's edge answered you already...Marle keeps her Pendant, which was originally the Lavos Timeline Schala's Pendant, because of time traveler's immunity and Kid gets the Chrono Trigger Timeline Schala's Pendant.
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er wwhat they swich pendent? huh? im confused now???
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Time Traveler's Immunity is simply this--someone who travels through time is from then on immune to changes that affect their own life--for example...let's say some guy named Jim goes back in time 10 years and kills the 10-years-younger Jim. Then Jim goes back to his own time. To everyone there, Jim has been dead for 10 years, but Jim still has all of his memories, including the ones from the past 10 years, even though to everyone else Jim has been dead for 10 years.
In the same way, Marle goes to the past with Crono & Co, and something they do changes the future in a way where Schala's pendant is not passed down the Guardia line--in 1000 AD, no one recognizes Marle's pendant except for Crono & Co and Melchior.
That's why, for the sealed boxes, if you open them in 1000 AD, and then go back to 600 AD and open them again, there's no paradox, Crono & Co keep all of their equipment, no matter what they do to the timeline.
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oh i see thnx
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Questions Raised
1. If Schala gave Kid her pendant before sending her to 1004 A.D., it means she kept her pendant with her after the Ocean Palace incident. How then would the pendant exist on the outside world and come into possession of the Guardia royal family, eventually ending up with Marle, who used it in Chrono Trigger?
2. How was it originally passed down anyway before Crono started time traveling?
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1. Pendant Discrepancy
Inquiry
If Schala gave Kid her pendant before sending her to 1004 A.D., it means she kept her pendant with her after the Ocean Palace incident. How then would the pendant exist on the outside world and come into possession of the Guardia royal family, eventually ending up with Marle, who used it in Chrono Trigger? How was it originally passed down anyway before Crono started time traveling? Would its absence potentially undo Chrono Trigger, preempting Marle from reacting with the Telepod to enter 600 A.D. or charge it up at the Mammon Machine to get around Zeal?
Theories
Immune Pendant
ZeaLitY
TTI and Time Bastard dictate that regardless of what Marle or Crono were doing at the Millennial Fair in 1000 A.D., they would appear in 600 A.D. and their versions in 1000 A.D. would disappear at the original time of departure. Additionally, all matter going with them, such as Crono's wood sword or Marle's pendant, would be subject to these laws and would appear in 600 A.D. and be removed from the present. Under these theories, the pendant would materialize with Marle in 600 A.D. when she first time traveled and was thought to be Queen Leene, circumventing the need for the pendant to be physically passed down among the royal family for 13,000 years. For the issue of Time Bastard applying to the pendant itself, please see Misconceptions.
Misconceptions
Time Bastard's Application to the Pendant
Some debate that the Immune Pendant theory is flawed because the pendant on Kid would be subject to Time Bastard. That is, since the pendant would go to 1004 A.D. with Kid from the Darkness Beyond Time, it would "pass" Marle's instances of time traveling, which take precedence. However, it is important to consider that Time Bastard operates on personal time. Let's examine the pendant's personal history.
Chrono Trigger
Pendant is created in 12000 B.C.; used thirteen thousand years later.
Chrono Cross
Pendant is created in 12000 B.C.; used almost instantly afterwards.
Thirteen thousand years would have to pass until the pendant disappeared due to Marle's original time traveling with it. It would disappear roughly in 14004 A.D. to appear in 600 A.D. with Marle. The same case can be applied to the Vests and Mails in Chrono Trigger. Crono can use both the vest and mail because he has traveled through time with the mail before retrieving the vest. After four hundred years, the vest would presumably be subject to Time Bastard and disappear. Crono is not violating the conservation of energy or time in this manner; he is merely using the same item in two different stages of its personal history.
2. How was the pendant originally passed down?
Inquiry
The Guardia royal family passed down Schala's pendant as an heirloom for all of its history. However, in Magus's flashback, Schala is clearly seen trapped in the Ocean Palace Incident after the three Gurus and Janus are gated to various eras. How did the Pendant originally make it to the outside world?
Theories
Pendant Power
ZeaLitY
During Crono's time traveling, Schala used the Pendant's power to transport his two teammates and Magus out of the Ocean Palace. Now, provided that the Pendant retained the same amount of power in the Lavos Timeline in the original incident, she would have been able to transport three other individuals out. She may have simply used the Pendant to remove herself, Queen Zeal, and perhaps another person out of the palace. This would allow the Pendant to exist on the outside world and find its way to Last Village; additionally, this would prevent Queen Zeal from staying behind and raising the palace as the Black Omen.
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I'm going to list the Pendant Paradox under Principles of Timelines and Dimensions, since there actually isn't a problem there under Chrono themes. Otherwise, it'd be listed with the rest of the genuine problems.
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Just a note on the pendant. Doesn't Marle's exist regardless since it is from another timeline, hence it is not the same one as the one that Schala had in essence. It'd be like the dimension split. Two of the same being can exist without either dissapearing, even thought they are from the same timeline.
And now I get TTI :P But it's pretty easy obviously if the Time Traveller has their own timeline erased and goes onto a new one, hence they're immune anyway Oo
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No, Zaper, it isn't like a dimensional split because there's no spatial change in the Timeline. Time Bastard takes care of that.