Chrono Compendium
Enhasa Halls - Chrono Series Analysis => Characters, Plot, and Themes => Topic started by: PhantomBPR on September 13, 2005, 11:36:13 pm
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What exactly are Nu's? I always thought that they were creatures created by magic, but they were on earth before magic was created. So, what are they?
And now that I think about it, the book in Zeal says that all life begins with Nu and ends with Nu, so are they like dietes or something?
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Here's the Compendium Article The Secret of Nu (http://www.chronocompendium.com/wiki/index.php?title=The_Secret_of_Nu)
It's a lot of the original thought from many of the Compendium's founders on Nu from back in the Compendium's heyday...or is it hayday?
edit: yeah, but i still can't help but like the idea of a day made just for hay...>_>
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Heyday.
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?r=2&q=heyday
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What exactly are Nu's?
Let's see.... You've got good Nus and bad Nus. Then there's sensational Nus and special interest Nus. There's also local Nus, regional Nus, and national Nus, although national Nus tend to be biased. Biased or not, Nus are mostly harmless...except for the hangman's Nus.
EDIT: Back on topic: I no not believe that Nus were meant to have any sort of significance. I believe they are what they are and nothing more: curious, intelligent creatures that for some reason or another exist in small numbers. That they are present in every era should not be of concern. After all, so are humans.
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Hurrah for puns.
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Nu's are really smart. They are strong and exist a lot. That's about it.
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Very specific scratch points, too.
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...exist a lot. That's about it.
"Exist a lot?" How do you mean? If you are saying that they live , "exist," for a very long time, then that's true, but I don't think population wise their numbers are large. Also, there's much more to them than just that; even in game, Belthasar implies of their greatness in the book he wrote in Kajar (Enhasa? I forget which...think it's Kajar.)
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Smurf Baloons.
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Nu's=Titans of Worldcraft=Xel'naga of Starcraft=Aliens of Space Odyssey.
Maybe the Nu's helped the Planet cultivate life, and they'll be the ones to destroy it to make room for other lifeforms with better evolutionary potential.
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Nu's are just life forms. just cuz they aren't humans, doesn't give them any more significants, the fact that all life begins and ends with Nu is strange, maybe the fact that Spekkio's final form is a Nu also has something to do with it also. But you don't hear anyone wondering the significance of any mystics or demihumans do ya?
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You know, I would take them to be the gods of the earth, as it were, or what for the Greeks would be chthonic deities. I suppose in Japanese these would be regional gods, or anything of that nature - I don't know Japanese myth and legend, so it's hard to make a comment, but I would consider them like the minor deities of a specific location. Say, what in our myths are nymphs and centaurs and satyrs and the like. Creatures which are older than humanity, and are born of gods before the Olympians came to power, from the unions for, in the case of nymphs, water deities. In time, they become the 'gods' or guardians of certain locations, deities of springs and wells and forests. I should think that to be the best explanation of a Nu. If you look at them like that, as the Chrono version of nymphs, it makes quite a bit of sense, I think.
By the way, I just had a funny thought. You know that 'all life begins and ends with Nu. That is my belief... at least for now...'? It just struck me: that sounds like a Natural Philosopher talking, from some heyday of early philosophy where the philosophers were putting out this theory and that for what lies at the origin of the world.
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Naw. The Nu don't have any resemblance to any regional Japanese deities. perhaps the Nu are the ultimate in evolution or something? The planet bore them first, their progeny are inferior and became the seperate, and the Nu themselves live forever, and after armageddon, only the Nu shall remain before they die :D
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By the way, I just had a funny thought. You know that 'all life begins and ends with Nu. That is my belief... at least for now...'? It just struck me: that sounds like a Natural Philosopher talking, from some heyday of early philosophy where the philosophers were putting out this theory and that for what lies at the origin of the world.
It does sound like some of the early Greek philosophers like Miletus, Heraclitus, Anaximander, etc. They were trying to understand what was the foundation of the material world and survived all change. Was it water, air, earth, fire? Apparently out friend in Zeal thought it was Nu...
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Some people thought it meant "Water" which Nu means in Ancient Egyptian, well atleast it means water of the Nile, I think.
That or Belthasar was already insane.... Or he used it as a metaphor to what he was going to do with a Nu. It all starts with a Nu.... He implants his mind into a Nu... And it all ends with Nu...... He gets switched off and sleeps forever.....?
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Wasn't the word Nu a thought to be a play on the word Mu, which means something of the extent of nothing and is a significant term in Zen Buddishm?
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It does, actually. I also like the idea about the River Nile.
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Chrono Trigger has a lot of mascots; recurring fuzzy creatures, as it were.
Nus, Kilwalas, those little toad creatures, Poyozos...
...what's interesting, is that we don't see any of these little guys in Chrono Cross.
They were these "octo blob" or "land octopi" as some liked to call them, in recurring places in the game (Sky Dragon Island, Shadow Forest, and Bend of Time).
But yeah, that's about it. I think the Nus were no more than mere mascots.
Who could headbutt you 90% of the way to your death with just one hit.
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90%? More like all but 1 HP.
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so it's more like 99%
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so it's more like 99%
Actually, for the majority of the game, it would be between 99.0% and 99.9%.
Well, I still maintain no significance for Nu beyond a simple mythological similiarity. This similarity, however, in no way requires it to have been concious on the part of the writers: myths tend to follow general trends, or have similarities, even in disconnected cultures. In writing Chrono Trigger, the writers likely thought of the same sorts of things that those who dreamed up myths did in ancient days, and Nus are thus similar, as I said, to Nymphs and spirits of the earth.
One cannot, I do not think, draw conclusions based upon similarities of the name. One might say it stems from Zen, but another from an Egyptian Heiroglyph (^^^... that one, right?); to me, Nu is the letter N in Greek. I seriously doubt that any of these are the root of the name, however. I think Occams Razor would be well applied here - the name of Nu is not something that should be made overly complex.
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how anyone can say that a Nu is just another being is beyonf me. You can not compare them to humans. Humans have will and are free to evolve without concer (except for annihilation) whereas Nus seem to stay the same and just help you a lot, and a very random. They seem more like Angels of the Entity (if s/he exists)
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Nu's use mops... Mops pick up spills... Nu means water in Ancient Egyptian.. Get the drift? lol XD That or they clean up the river of time lol.
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Actually, that's a great idea, Zaper. What if Nu's are from the DBT? What if they're the ones responsible for literally making the changes in history? That could explain why there's so many in Zeal and so little in others. In the others, time is usually pretty simple, but then we have Zeal. The kingdom whose fate kinda revolves around the whole world. And stuff.
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Nu's use mops... Mops pick up spills... Nu means water in Ancient Egyptian.. Get the drift? lol XD That or they clean up the river of time lol.
Actually, that doesn't sound right. I might be mistaken, but I don't think Nu is water. Rather, it may be the deity for the Nile, or for water, but maybe not water itself. For some reason, I think another form of the name may be Nun.
The primeval water that encircles the entire world, and from which everything was created, personified as a god. He is considered to be a more ancient god then the sun-god Re, who arose from this water. He is called 'father of the gods', which refers to his primacy rather than literal parentage. With the goddess Naunet he forms a pair in the Ogdoad of Hermopolis. Nun played no part in religious rituals and had no temples dedicated to him. He was symbolized by the sacred lakes associated with certain temples, such as the ones at Dendera and Karnak. Nun is depicted in human form holding the solar barque above his head.
So, in that way, I would think him similar to the Babylonian Tiamat, or the Greek Okeanos.
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When the Nu in the book says "all life begins..." yada yada yada, if you see, the final spekkio form is a nu. and he is in the end of time. see? see? *groans*
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Yes, that's been said a zillion times.
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Actually, the name "Nu" also associates with the whole time idea.
I'll explain soon, I promise (gtg right now ^_-).
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Oh, and let us not forget that "nu" means "naked" in portuguese.
And, OMFG, look! Nus are naked!
Coincidence? I don't think so.
¬¬"
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Radical Dreamer has a NU doll, I WANT!!
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I thought that the letter M came from an ancient Asian tribe the name of which I know but I can't remember right now (my brain stopped - or never worked :P). I remember, however, that this symbol meant "water". The Greeks took it later and transformed it to almost exactly what we know as M (Mu?).
By the way, the word "Nu" reminds me of a similar Greek word (you could spell it: "Nus") which means intelligence and/or mind (Belthasar copies his mind into a Nu's mind, remember?).
P.S.: There is also a game named MU Online. If the Zealians had electricity and Internet, they would probably play NU Online or something... :wink:
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Actually, the name "Nu" also associates with the whole time idea.
I'll explain soon, I promise (gtg right now ^_-).
Ok... As promised....... :)
The people of Zeal were very advanced both technologically and spiritually (some might compare Zeal to Atlantis.... ;) ).
In Hebrew, the word 'Nu' is being used almost daily.
It's a word that express the will to haste someone or something...
The wish for something to happen faster...
Moreover, in the game, Nu is a creature that lived in all time periods. From the begining of time till the end of time (final form of Spekkio).
"All life begins with Nu and ends with Nu...
This is the truth! This is my belief! ...at least for now."
Meanning:
First of all this is a reffernce to the fact that Nu exsists in all time periods of the game. Since the people of Zeal weren't able to see the past or the future, through research Belthasar, a very wise man, realized that the Nu's are a very ancient race which will probably even outlive the human race. Also notice that Belthasar left his message regarding his "Wings of Time" trusted within a Nu which after delivering the message, started sleeping beyond time...
Secondly, this also comes to tell us that life are short. Time flows like a river, very hastily. I belive time travelling kind of prove that point, that everything is temporary, don't you think? ^_^
And I must finish with:
~ "Every night has its day.
Even forever must come to an end....
I think."
;)
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Omg, thats the best quote every, I love it. Who said it? I forgot.
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- Statue of Magus (in the producer's ending)
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Omg, thats the best quote every, I love it. Who said it? I forgot.
Masato Kato himself, represented by a Magus statue sprite, said it. A nun (a real one, not a Naga-ette) in 600 AD says the contrary:
[Nun]
In our world, every storm has an end.
Every night, brings a new morning.
What's important is to trust those you
love, and never give up......
We must all keep hope alive...
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But wasn't the Nu in 2300 A.D. just a program, maybe a robot or something, and how the hell would a Nu survive the Lavos eruption?
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But wasn't the Nu in 2300 A.D. just a program, maybe a robot or something, and how the hell would a Nu survive the Lavos eruption?
The same way a human would survive, by not dying. :P
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could of been made by Belthasar the same time as the Epoche or even befor hand. im bet he had plenty of time to kill.
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You sure yoshie? Creating a machine that can fly & travel trough time, and creating the Mammon Machine and the Black Omen would take some time. A Nu is probably an immortal being, or indestructible
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Nu is either a robot or a genetically engineered cyborg...thing...I mean, it's got a button that puts it to eternal sleep after all...Eh? Eh? 'member?
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Only the one in Belthasars place. Oh crap, i forgot that that was one of my most favourite parts, coz of the sadness and the beautifulness...that and Nu died. Hmmm, does eternal sleep mean dead, or just asleep, in the DBT perhaps. I smell a new thread being made...prob by me. If all Nus could be pressed asleep, you would be seeing all these NUs all over the place
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Not necessarily, it seems as though Belthasar had to tell the party to do it before they could. Perhaps it's hidden and only Belthasar knows about it? Maybe it's internal even.
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Of course, I know how to make humans fall aslepp for eternity too! I put my index and middle finger together, and point it near the left nipple, and i...STAB! But seriously, the Nu was probably tampered with. "The Living Organism: No longer Sacroscant" anyone?
Whats after Nu in rank anyways? I mean, V is almost reaching 2500
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Who knows, maybe in the Japanese version the Nu asked you to actually strangle him or something, but the American censorship changed the action to "push the button OFF" :lol:
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The Nu in Keeper's Dome, 2300 A.D. is what you would call a Cyborg.
Once it's purpose was complete, it was put to a sleep beyond the flow of time , an eternal sleep, which some might consider as death...
....
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You sure yoshie? Creating a machine that can fly & travel trough time, and creating the Mammon Machine and the Black Omen would take some time. A Nu is probably an immortal being, or indestructible
i ment after he was stuck in 2300A.D.
he would of had time to kill
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Gee, your right Yoshie. Man, in a post apocalyptic society, when food is scarce and the will to survive is low, and we all are sooo hungry, not to mention mentally ill, I would just take my time on the Epoch, you know, have a cup of tea, play some pinball...sorry...but it is true, since Belthasar was dying, and the Epoch was his final and greatest machine...*sniffs*
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He went insane...Who's to say that the insane waste their time efficiently?
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Exactly...that agreeing with me, right?
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I guess I was agreeing with you...but I thought you were being sarcastic at first...now I'm not so sure...whatever...Bethasar being nuts+not a lot happening in the future=lots of time on his hands
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Almost dying+No hope=Does not want to do anything
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Dalton mentioning him working on it, but not mentioning it being complete+going to a new area with tons of new technology and resources=finish Epoch.
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my awesome mind+horrible mathmatics formula=WHAT HAVE I DONE!?!?
Okay, but even if he's thrown into the future...it's not like his incomplete work went w/him or anything...heck, we don't even know how incomplete it was! It could have just been blueprints! So maybe it still took him a very long time.
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my gess is he could of made the nu's to be a kinda test dummy. he builds the Epoch and has no clue if it would work or rip him to bits.he has a little nu made to test it out then "bam" some kid shows up insane enof to test it(chrono ran threw the sewers when no one els could make it). or he could of been to old to care any more as i rember dident he pass away shortly after chrono showed up?
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my awesome mind+horrible mathmatics formula=WHAT HAVE I DONE!?!?
Okay, but even if he's thrown into the future...it's not like his incomplete work went w/him or anything...heck, we don't even know how incomplete it was! It could have just been blueprints! So maybe it still took him a very long time.
This reminds me of the next gen thread with all the ...=...=pwnd thing
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The Creature Now Sleeps Beyond The Flows Of Time.
Sigh, what a wistful sentance by the insane, but lovable Balthesar
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Or the time traveling portion of Epoch was complete, but the rest was unfinished.
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Note: Posting this here after I made the mistake of hitting new thread instead of post reply. Thankfully, a very helpful entity instructed me what to do after my blunder ^_^
My theory on the whole Nu situation is that they are more like guardians. Not for the planet but for time itself. I don't think it's any coincidence that the final form of Spikko is a red Nu, because a Nu that exists at the end of time should be, by theory, a Nu at the point in time where its power would be the least contained by the timeflow. A Nu without time resistance, simply. So, these Nu, who give and control all life like water (Works with how they're blue and have green grass like masses on their heads) live and exist in the timeflow governing it and caring for it. That’s why the Chrono Party kept seeing them in irregular spots (such as Frog or Glenn's forest residence when the Nu hastily sneaks back into the bushes from where it'd been watching for their arrival, which works with them being entities of time so they can be places with knowledge of events before they occur) because they were fiddling around and jumping from time period to time period, hence they sent a Nu or multiple Nu's to investigate. Furthermore, the Nu are abundant in the Zeal period because much investigation would be needed in this period as humans begin to meddle in magic and discovery, and of course tampering with Lavos which could be disastrous to time itself. As a final noteworthy point to my theory Belthasars last and final invention, the Epoch (Silvard) the wings of time, during construction was closely monitored by a Nu. Works, no?
That’s my two cents there. The Nu are beings born from time itself and govern over the flow of time. They enter into periods of time to maintain the stability of the timeflow and follow the actives of those who are meddling with it. The Nu's following the actives of the Chrono Party the people of Zeal (Belthasar especially) is my best defense for my theory.
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'All life begins with guardians and ends with Guardians'?
Nah. I think Nus embody dreams (Not unlike Masa and Mune), the dreams of the Planet. Therefore, the sentence would be 'All life begins with dreams and ends with dreams. that is the truth! That is my belief! At least for now...' Seems to resonate with Chrono's theme.
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'All life begins with guardians and ends with Guardians'?
Nah. I think Nus embody dreams (Not unlike Masa and Mune), the dreams of the Planet. Therefore, the sentence would be 'All life begins with dreams and ends with dreams. that is the truth! That is my belief! At least for now...' Seems to resonate with Chrono's theme.
Couldn't have said it better myself :D
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'All life begins with guardians and ends with Guardians'?
Nah. I think Nus embody dreams (Not unlike Masa and Mune), the dreams of the Planet. Therefore, the sentence would be 'All life begins with dreams and ends with dreams. that is the truth! That is my belief! At least for now...' Seems to resonate with Chrono's theme.
Maybe the entire thought of "beginning" doesn’t really relate to "creation". I do like the entire dream theory, but I feel like defending this. I take life "beginning" with Nu in the sense that they were there, guarding over life right from its beginning. So, more to the sense of "All life begins with (the) Nu" referring to the Nu in a plural sense, as in they begin one in the same. In the same idea life "ends" with Nu as in they'll be there, guarding over existence until all of creation comes to its inevitable end. Bit of a different take on Belthasar's statement, not as a theory of creation but as just a theory on the existence of the Nu themselves existing alongside life.
''All life begins with guardians and ends with Guardians'?
Yes, all life does begin with it's guardians and ends with it's guardians. Its really just a different gramatical sense. Not "with" as in it's its creating element, but "with" as in it's there when life begins.
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WHY would life need Guardians? There were Nu before Lavos, but no Nu (Unless you count Belthy's, which he created) after Lavos' assault, in the time when life needs it most?
No, it's a good theory, but the Planet doesn't work this way. It defends it's own life, but it leaves it's inhabitants to their own devices.
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WHY would life need Guardians? There were Nu before Lavos, but no Nu (Unless you count Belthy's, which he created) after Lavos' assault, in the time when life needs it most?
No, it's a good theory, but the Planet doesn't work this way. It defends it's own life, but it leaves it's inhabitants to their own devices.
Hmm... s'true. My theory does have plenty of potholes in it. I think the Nu aren't there after Lavos' assault because this is a vital point in humanities run. They're just preserving the cycle, and once that cycle comes to its end they just fade out until the next "round" so to speak starts up. They're always there, in a sense, just not really doing anything. Yes, those silly humans did some pretty wild things with time. Jumped around it, found the end of it, changed it, studied it, but never did anything truly dangerous to it. The Nu watched, just to be safe, as a specific band of humans really got mixed up in some of the workings of time, and (I’m just thinking here) kept close tabs on a single human who started to know quite a bit about times workings (the Nu Belthasar "created" might have been a clever plan of the Nu to lul the brilliant minded gent into a sense of security and trust in it's companion and reveal his theories and ideas to it). As I said, I get way too into this. Basically all I’m saying is it’s easy to see why we’d need guardians when a band of kids can one day suddenly jump off to another time period and start changing history itself!
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The Planet's aware of all that and can keep tabs on humans on it's own. The cycle of nature can fix itself, and there's no need to keep tabs. Besides, it's not like humans all jumped around the ages. Just few did. AND, might I add, the Time Crash seems like a sever enough damage to the time stream, but the Planet took care of itself, no? It doesn't need to keep tabs. If something happans, it takes care of it.
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The Planet's aware of all that and can keep tabs on humans on it's own. The cycle of nature can fix itself, and there's no need to keep tabs. Besides, it's not like humans all jumped around the ages. Just few did. AND, might I add, the Time Crash seems like a sever enough damage to the time stream, but the Planet took care of itself, no? It doesn't need to keep tabs. If something happans, it takes care of it.
Ah well then maybe the Nu are more of an added physical interpretation of that will to heal that the Planet has, or possibly some exterior force trying to keep the planet steady on it's course. I just think the Nu are guardians... and though it's a shaky theory I stand by it. Thanks for debating this with me though. I know I look like the stupid new guy with the crappy Guru recolor as his avatar, so thanks for your patience. For now, Imma take a break from all this CT theory and go watch some Clone High :D
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You're welcome and have fun.
To continue the debate... I'm sorry, but the will to heal came after the beggining, while the Nu were there at the beggining.
If it's crappy and has plotholes, let's agree it's not a valid theory?
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You're welcome and have fun.
To continue the debate... I'm sorry, but the will to heal came after the beggining, while the Nu were there at the beggining.
If it's crappy and has plotholes, let's agree it's not a valid theory?
Agreed. Untill I work out some of the flaws in it the theory is as invalid as a "your mom" joke. I'm going to keep my belief in it though, and continue to refine it... yes, for now, I say no more.
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Uh-huh. And, no offense (honestly), try to actually check it with the game. With the abundance of resources ZeaLitY and the Comepndium have to offer, you should have other peoples' opinions, quotes, definitons of people who have been theorizing about all things Chrono for years now.
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Actually, on the note of the planet. It was stupid. It fell for Belthasar's plan. It was manipulated by Belthasar.
The idiotic planet summoned in a city, where hundreds of Dragonites were slaughtered. And then in the end of CC, not a single one that appeared is still alive, and their God.. The almighty Dragon God that is the incarnation of all the elements from the Reptite Dimension.. was killed... I'd think that the Reptite dimension would be a total ruin. If the power of the planet (The Dragon God) can be defeated, that makes the planet look pretty weak.
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Serge was neither a messenger of humanity or the Planet, he was a messenger of his own will to be born into the world.
Also, the Planet isn't stupid, it's just not as omniscent as you might of imagined it: It doesn't know what every little human is thinking.
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There's always the possibility that the Planet cooperated with Belthasar's plan because it didn't like the option of all of Time/Space being devoured by the thing it JUST got rid of.
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There's always the possibility that the Planet cooperated with Belthasar's plan because it didn't like the option of all of Time/Space being devoured by the thing it JUST got rid of.
I prefer to think that Belthasar was in cooperation with the planet's plan.
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There's always the possibility that the Planet cooperated with Belthasar's plan because it didn't like the option of all of Time/Space being devoured by the thing it JUST got rid of.
I prefer to think that Belthasar was in cooperation with the planet's plan.
But then we'd forget that Belthasar only wants to save Schala. Had she not been fused with him, he'd have an easier time. It's just the fact that Lavos encaged her, and is draining her godlike powers that that will cause him to turn into the TD.
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I woulden't call Scahala's powers godlike. She's not omniscent, nor is she omnipotent. She's extremely powerful, but not godlike.
Belthasar wanted to get rid of the TD AND free Schala. Those were the two long term purposes of Project Kid.
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Schala's not even insanely powerful. She has loads of control over magic. She is able to manipulate it to a degree higher than anyone else...maybe. Who's to say Magus or Crono or the Gurus aren't even MORE capable? Or Lavos itself?
Schala's great, don't get me wrong, but she's not angelic. She's a gifted human, not the ultimate human.
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The Guru of Life said that Sir
Janus has stronger powers than
even Miss Schala!
This was taken from the Script. If Janus/Magus has more powers than Schala then Schala must be no where near the point of being the ultimate human. Take a look at Magus' powers and you'll see that they're pretty powerful. But if those powers are more than Schala can create, then Schala must no be as powerful as anyone had thought. Really she has no power when she's inside the TD.
NOTE: Im not trying to start an argument here, im just providing evidence that Schala is not a God or even a Demi-God.
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Yeah? Well what does Melchior know?
Anyway, since Melchior made the pendant, he might have been refering to her in comparison with the power that she uses with the pendant. We never saw her natural abilities. And that's showing something.
There's also the fact that she is almost the most enlightened being in the whole of the CT world, maybe the most actually. That 13,000 years of imprisonment showed that she had time to think over such things as life, as shown with the planet and the spermatoza.
And then, we realise that she also has power over time travel.
The thing is also that Lavos needed her to survive. If Lavos can be so strong verse Serge and co, and that energy is coming from Schala, then that's showing something.
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Yeah? Well what does Melchior know?
Anyway, since Melchior made the pendant, he might have been refering to her in comparison with the power that she uses with the pendant. We never saw her natural abilities. And that's showing something.
Oh, please. Schala sealed the Time-Gate with her magic.
Schala is nothing more than a very powerful magic using human. Magus is just that much more powerful.
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Yeah? Well what does Melchior know?
Anyway, since Melchior made the pendant, he might have been refering to her in comparison with the power that she uses with the pendant. We never saw her natural abilities. And that's showing something.
We never saw her "natural" abilities... because she might have none to begin with! It's totally possible that manipulating the pendant's power is all she can do. Prime example: during the Ocean Palace disaster, she teleported her or the party to safety thanks to the pendant's power, and after she used all the power, she couldn't do anything on her own and got stuck in the Palace.
And then, we realise that she also has power over time travel.
The thing is also that Lavos needed her to survive. If Lavos can be so strong verse Serge and co, and that energy is coming from Schala, then that's showing something.
Seeing as how the Time Devourer's final form is supposed to be able to devour the whole space-time continuum, it's clear that it's supposed to be more powerful than both Schala and Lavos. You can't equal the Time Devourer's power with Schala's. Time Devourer > Lavos+Schala. Moreover, the Dragon God is also part of the Time Devourer.
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Yeah? Well what does Melchior know?
Anyway, since Melchior made the pendant, he might have been refering to her in comparison with the power that she uses with the pendant. We never saw her natural abilities. And that's showing something.
We never saw her "natural" abilities... because she might have none to begin with! It's totally possible that manipulating the pendant's power is all she can do. Prime example: during the Ocean Palace disaster, she teleported her or the party to safety thanks to the pendant's power, and after she used all the power, she couldn't do anything on her own and got stuck in the Palace.
And then, we realise that she also has power over time travel.
The thing is also that Lavos needed her to survive. If Lavos can be so strong verse Serge and co, and that energy is coming from Schala, then that's showing something.
Seeing as how the Time Devourer's final form is supposed to be able to devour the whole space-time continuum, it's clear that it's supposed to be more powerful than both Schala and Lavos. You can't equal the Time Devourer's power with Schala's. Time Devourer > Lavos+Schala. Moreover, the Dragon God is also part of the Time Devourer.
My point was that Schala sustain Lavos. So it'd have to balance out. Schala must have given Lavos enough strength of that to be able to defeat the Dragon God. That way, he can absorb it's strength. So Schala could also = Dragon God in power.
Anyway, Yeah, I forgot that Schala sealed the portal. But guess what, Magus should have done it. He didn't, since he probably can't at that stage. So even then, Schala's natural abilities are greater.
Plus, Schala isn't just a human. If you say that, then stop saying that Crono is no ordinary human, since by that logic, he's just as bit as human as Schala. Well guess what, she suffered more mentally and physically, and after all of it found enlightenment in all of it.
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Lavos never defeated the Dragon God... FATE and Chronopolis did. Lavos/TD just absorbed its pwnd soul or something like that.
To speak with Final Fantasy terms, Magus is more like a Black Mage while Schala would be a Time Mage or White Mage. Magus can nuke enemies with all 4 Elements but he can't even cast a simple Cure spell... Similarly, Schala can seal a portal but that doesn't mean that she could nuke enemies with Dark Matters and Luminaires. All she does is thanks to her pendant.
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It would have made no sense for Magus to close that gate, it could have blown his cover as being the prophet if he was just as magically gifted as Schala. The Zealians can sense magic ability, I doubt they can sense how strong someone is magically.
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If Schala is as strong as Zapar is implying, Schala should be able to defeat Lavos on her own. She can't. End.
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If Schala is as strong as Zapar is implying, Schala should be able to defeat Lavos on her own. She can't. End.
Maybe she couldn't. Though, she did try to cross dimensions. Now that's something else. Having enough power to cross dimensions. And she nearly did too, except for the fact that Lavos was still on her, or she was falling (to many discreprencies), and she decided to save Serge.
Also, you'd think why Lavos would take the Dragon God's power, if the merging process requires Schala. Maybe he needed more energy to overwhelm her. She was able to resist Lavos a some time, even mentally to. I myself thought that that purple barrier around her was erected by her to slow down the process in her final moments before Kid was released.
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Plus, 13,000 years merged with Lavos is a bogus number. We have no idea how long they were merged, just that it started after Lavos was defeated by Crono and co. Since they had the ability to touch all timelines, which explains how Schala was able to reach out to Serge and send a piece of her out as Kidd all in different points in the timeline. She could've been stuck for 1,000,000 years...or two months. Who knows.
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I can see you're a Schala fan, Zaper, and we're all fond of her here, but you're kinda overempowering her. She's not godlike and she's uber. She's a princess of a magical kingdom, nothing more. And yet, the TD doesn't use any magic powers, only Elements. You can blame that on the battle system, but why not give Lavos Techs, like nearly every other boss in the game, and say that's Schala's magic? Maybe because Schala's magic was inferior, perhaps even defeated? Just like Tonks not being able to change her body in TBP, perhaps Schala coulden't use it out of sorrow.
And while she did have a lot of time to think, the rest of time would be spent weeping. She's kinda alone and sorrowed and filled with thoughts of sorrow, rage and destruction from Lavos.
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I doubt the fact that it was Schala didn't start the revitalization of Lavos or how much energy she had. It was probably something simple, like the fact that Schala wasn't properly removed from the timeline (timeline overwrite) and Lavos WAS, so their contact caused the Universe to take a cosmic dump known as the Time Devourer.
And the crossing dimensions and reaching out to Serge thing was probably one of Lavos' Gates from the Mammom Machine Incident, instead of whatever power Schala had.
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If Schala is as strong as Zapar is implying, Schala should be able to defeat Lavos on her own. She can't. End.
Schala said IN THE GAME that she would use the LAST of her pendant's powers to teleport the party to safety.
If, as is being suggested, the pendant enhanced her powers, then once it was drained, she wouldn't have had nearly the energy to last long against Lavos. Furthermore, it is equally likely that schala actually died or came very close to it when the Ocean Palace collapsed on her. AND inside the DBT, it is possible that magic as it was known in the CT world cannot exist, due to the non-existence of Lavos in its original form.
Sealing a time portal shouldn't really be that difficult. Its more like a forcefield, I think. If the portal is a gateway, then it is possible that a barrier on one end would appear on the other. I think it is the same kind of barrier technology used on Melchior and, perhaps, on the party and the mammon machine.
We do know that over time the pendant can lose its power. This is proven by the fact you have to recharge it at the mammon machine.
It is also said that when Schala communes with the mammon machine, her pendant starts to glow. It is conceivable that using magic and enhancing it with the pendant, as opposed to simply opening seals, drains it much more quickly. Needless to say, activating the mammon machine would have required incredible energy.
Even IF Schala does have near-god like powers when her pendant is fully charged, she is still human, and subject to exhaustion and injury.
To draw any conclusions about her simply because she was unable to stop from becoming part of the Time Devourer is ludicrous.
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Sealing a time portal shouldn't really be that difficult. Its more like a forcefield, I think. If the portal is a gateway, then it is possible that a barrier on one end would appear on the other. I think it is the same kind of barrier technology used on Melchior and, perhaps, on the party and the mammon machine.
It does exactly that, as soon as you exit the other side of the Zeal gate it closes with the same triangular shaped box surrounding it. I doubt its the same kind of magic, one is for closing time gates and the other is to preserve a living being in stasus(sp?). Very different things.
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I doubt VERY much if Zeal developed a specific magic JUST for the purpose of sealing a time portal. Also, I don't think its really different. It seems as though once inside these kind of seals, you don't remember the time in them. Almost as though once inside one of these barriers, time stops. Using that, it would be very possible for the two techniques so be similar.
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Furthermore, it is equally likely that schala actually died or came very close to it when the Ocean Palace collapsed on her. AND inside the DBT, it is possible that magic as it was known in the CT world cannot exist, due to the non-existence of Lavos in its original form.
Dying doesn't send you to the DBT, though. And Belthasar describes her as falling through a Space-Time warp into the DBT.
It does exactly that, as soon as you exit the other side of the Zeal gate it closes with the same triangular shaped box surrounding it. I doubt its the same kind of magic, one is for closing time gates and the other is to preserve a living being in stasus(sp?). Very different things.
So? HOW magic is used doesn't mean crap. It's the source of energy that's used. Both magical effects are drawn from Schala's pendant, thusly, it's basically the same kind of magic, manipulated in different ways.
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I'll agree to that. My statement regarding Schala dying was merely a suggestion that if she HAD died, it is possible lavos could have created another from her genetic material. After all, lavos does apparently have some level of ability in manipulating genetic material.
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I doubt VERY much if Zeal developed a specific magic JUST for the purpose of sealing a time portal. Also, I don't think its really different. It seems as though once inside these kind of seals, you don't remember the time in them. Almost as though once inside one of these barriers, time stops. Using that, it would be very possible for the two techniques so be similar.
WTF... You don't need to develope magic. Schala is strong enough to make her magic do her will.
BTW, as for the Mammon Machine... Because she used the pendant to commune with it, and not directly awaken the flame, that may prove why she was still pure in a way and not corrupted.
I'll agree to that. My statement regarding Schala dying was merely a suggestion that if she HAD died, it is possible lavos could have created another from her genetic material. After all, lavos does apparently have some level of ability in manipulating genetic material.
... Lavos abosrbs DNA to enhance himself...
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I'd call the time devourer a good example of absorbing DNA
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I'd call the time devourer a good example of absorbing DNA
Well, just to fix the Schala hair/eyecolour problem, I thought that Lavos may have been draining her energy and DNA to try and evolve etc.
Though, The TD absorbs energy more than DNA, since Lavos is already like in his terms a perfect species.
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I'd call the time devourer a good example of absorbing DNA
Well, just to fix the Schala hair/eyecolour problem, I thought that Lavos may have been draining her energy and DNA to try and evolve etc.
Though, The TD absorbs energy more than DNA, since Lavos is already like in his terms a perfect species.
Hardly perfect. The time devourer, if you remember, was hardly in an adult stage when you fought against it. And, given that Lavos was underground for 65,01,999 years, I'd say that the TD is a very, VERY long way from being its perfect form.
As for changes in eye/hair color, hadn't it bee generally accepted that the people of zeal used hair dye of one form or another, perhaps magically altering their appearence? I don't think the fact that she is now blonde is of any real consequence.
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It hadnt been generally accepted, but I was fighting for it to be recognised.
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I'd call the time devourer a good example of absorbing DNA
Well, just to fix the Schala hair/eyecolour problem, I thought that Lavos may have been draining her energy and DNA to try and evolve etc.
Though, The TD absorbs energy more than DNA, since Lavos is already like in his terms a perfect species.
Hardly perfect. The time devourer, if you remember, was hardly in an adult stage when you fought against it. And, given that Lavos was underground for 65,01,999 years, I'd say that the TD is a very, VERY long way from being its perfect form.
As for changes in eye/hair color, hadn't it bee generally accepted that the people of zeal used hair dye of one form or another, perhaps magically altering their appearence? I don't think the fact that she is now blonde is of any real consequence.
1) Lavos is perfect, that's why he decided to start spawning. The TD's function has not yet been perfected. Schala is the key, and the longer he holds onto her and the more he can absorb her, the TD will be complete.
2) That was a rumour. Some guy made up that in the Japanese version it said that, but even for 10 years, it hasn't been found anywhere in the japanese script. So, to this day, the hair is natural, just like Serge's, Wazuki's, Riddle's etc.
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Lavos is perfect, that's why he decided to start spawning. The TD's function has not yet been perfected. Schala is the key, and the longer he holds onto her and the more he can absorb her, the TD will be complete.
There's no such thing as a perfect lifeform. If Lavos was perfect, then he'd have shed the primitive notion of a corpereal form and become a supreme energy being. He "decided" to start spawning via instinct so his race could propagate.
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Lavos is perfect, that's why he decided to start spawning. The TD's function has not yet been perfected. Schala is the key, and the longer he holds onto her and the more he can absorb her, the TD will be complete.
There's no such thing as a perfect lifeform. If Lavos was perfect, then he'd have shed the primitive notion of a corpereal form and become a supreme energy being. He "decided" to start spawning via instinct so his race could propagate.
Well that may show that at that point in time, Lavos may have thought that he had gained enough, was perfect in his own view and decided to create the spawn.
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I think it'd be more like "I've used this planet's DNA and resources as much as I can, now's the right time to have kids. It's not that Lavos felt it was perfect, but that it had gotten as good as it could with the current planet.
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Well, here's another idea: Maybe Lavos was nearing death? Maybe the Planet itself was nearing destruction in natural order? Lavos may have thought: "I'm gonna die soon. Better have kids and launch them off to space before I drop dead, or else all of this would of been for nothing."
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Belth has a quote that seems to indicate that Lavos is fine and dandy for the time being at least.
Lavos continues to replicate......
like a giant parasite, he is consuming
our world.
I mean certainly not conclusive, but the act of reproduction is often resource consuming to a creature and the fact he's still up to it says to me that he's pretty comfortable. At the lease not dying yet.[/quote]
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Assuming the sheer amount of power Lavos has, his 'weak' form could still pwnzer the living hell out of 99% of all life-forms on the Planet. Resource comsuming indeed, but by the sheer amount of resource it has around him, he could just eat and eat until it gives birth. Besides, maybe he's not dying, but merely nearing death?
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Or quite simply, his instincts tell him it's breeding time; just like any other animal, regardless of circumstances.
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Too bad Lavos isn't just any other animal.
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Indeed, but seeing as how his goal is to improve his genome and reproduce, I don't see why it can't just be his biological clock to fit the theme of his motives.
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Well, Lavos doesn't seem so much as an animal, but more as a Cell to me.
He has a Nucleus inside of it, which holds all of it's genetic material. It's main goal is to reproduce. It uses means to defend itself (Cell Membranes, the Robotic part of him may have been added in it's desgin while it's evolution). His outer shell can be compared to a Membrane, allowing only certain materials (DNA and energy) to pass. The Humanoid and other bit could be considered organelles for this example. It manipulates elements to further itself (Construction of the Shell), and there can be many more examples, really...
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Either way you look at it, it makes Lavos' reproduction movitated by nessessity and instinct.
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Agreed.
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It does exactly that, as soon as you exit the other side of the Zeal gate it closes with the same triangular shaped box surrounding it. I doubt its the same kind of magic, one is for closing time gates and the other is to preserve a living being in stasus(sp?). Very different things.
So? HOW magic is used doesn't mean crap. It's the source of energy that's used. Both magical effects are drawn from Schala's pendant, thusly, it's basically the same kind of magic, manipulated in different ways.
If you think like that then every magic is basically the same, which is redundant. And plus, where do you get the notion that Schala imprisoned the group?
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Of course they'd have to close the gate both ways, otherwise the party would appear inside the cube and be crushed by the pressure.
Besides, Schala's incasement might have been generated by Lavos. Would explain why the Song of Life shattered it.
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If you think like that then every magic is basically the same, which is redundant. And plus, where do you get the notion that Schala imprisoned the group?
No, because the four elements of CC are from different sources of energy/magic. Schala draws on one well of magic (Lavos/her Innate, whichever is applicable) and applies it in two seperate ways.
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If you think like that then every magic is basically the same, which is redundant. And plus, where do you get the notion that Schala imprisoned the group?
No, because the four elements of CC are from different sources of energy/magic. Schala draws on one well of magic (Lavos/her Innate, whichever is applicable) and applies it in two seperate ways.
I fail to see how this applies to what we were talking about.
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I fail to see how it doesn't.
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We were talking about Schala sealing the 12,000 B.C./65,000,000 B.C. gate, I don't get how elements from Cross have anything to do with it.
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I was talking about the four elements from CT ((CC was a typo)). Darkness, Lightning, Fire, and Water. I was using them to compare that. Even though the characters draw upon different wells of magic, they can perform several different effects and sometimes even perform similar actions. Thusly, the reverse is also possible in that Schala can bring forth two entirely different effects by drawing on the same magic well.
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Oooooohhhhhhh. Okay that makes more sense. I was like wtf does Cross have to do with anything? You had me confuzzled.
Okay, I can buy that. I wonder what element would be used in those respects? I would doubt Fire, disregard Heavenly, consider Shadow, and favor Water. Mostly because they were held unconsious until they were released, kind of like cryogenic freezing. And the barrier around the gate is solid and stuff...yea I got nothing for that. Help?
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Oooooohhhhhhh. Okay that makes more sense. I was like wtf does Cross have to do with anything? You had me confuzzled.
Okay, I can buy that. I wonder what element would be used in those respects? I would doubt Fire, disregard Heavenly, consider Shadow, and favor Water. Mostly because they were held unconsious until they were released, kind of like cryogenic freezing. And the barrier around the gate is solid and stuff...yea I got nothing for that. Help?
It could be a combination of all of them. Just like how Delta force created a triangle with a shadow effect.
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Who says Lavos Magic (Which Schala's power is possibly coming from) is elemental whatsoever?
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Who says Lavos Magic (Which Schala's power is possibly coming from) is elemental whatsoever?
Shadow, Lightning, Fire and Water are innate, not the planets own elemental energy element magic whatever.
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Spekkio said that everything was based on the elements.
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If this is true, what about these "non-elemental-attacks" like this dance thingy(the one you need a rock for) and the tornado attack of Ayla?, maybe it's some kind of bug...But what Element is a normal attack? Or is "physical-attack" considered as an own element?
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If this is true, what about these "non-elemental-attacks" like this dance thingy(the one you need a rock for) and the tornado attack of Ayla?, maybe it's some kind of bug...But what Element is a normal attack? Or is "physical-attack" considered as an own element?
My view is that a technique does not have an elemental effect unless it is based on pure elemental energy (magic). A sword might be based on a combination of the elements, but it only produces a physical effect. Similarly, a nonelemental technique is an incoherent mixture of all elements that doesn't have any particular effect.
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An attack is energy, energy can take neutral form. Some techs (Like Lucca's flamethrower attack) are elemental, but I think Spekkio meant that all things are made from the combined balance of all elements. Homeostasis makes sure the body remains stable, and that's a good example of keeping 'the elemental powers' that build the body stable.
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Who says that Lavos can't have bits of all four Innates, causing him to mix them into his own breed of magic that's insanely powerful and morally unethical to be weilded by humans? Just because EVERYTHING's based off those four elements doesn't mean they can't combine elements like elements in chemistry.
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Agreed, except you brought a bad example. There are over 100 elements in chemistry, which sorta makes the number of possible mixtures too big.. There are much smaller numbers in this case, but I wholly agree on that idea. He created his own magic instead of nullifying the elemental powers... Though the Lavos Spawns had Shadow Magic, I think?
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It should work... antipode is based on that concept so why can't Lavos do that?
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The Lavos spawn in the black omen could also use water, and this fire bubble+the dark bomb.
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To bring the original topic of this thread back while still sticking with the topic on hand, I think Schala was actually a Nu in disguise!
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...
There is a rule about one word posts.
Anyway, When Spekkio said that everything was based on the elements, i think he meant the magical innate. The planets power is based on the actual 6 elements. Or in a way, those 6 elements all co inside to create the 4 magical elements
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What would bring you to that conclusion Zaper?
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What would bring you to that conclusion Zaper?
Well, back in CT, they were using those 4 magical innates as the example.
Once CC came out, the elements were shown. They are part of the planets power. But the elemenets are universal too I guess, but maybe from the Earth's point of view.
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It could be that the four elements of CT and the six elements of CC are two interpretations of the same fundamental force. Perhaps the elements, in both interpretations, are emanations of one fundamental magical force, like the Sephirat emanations of God in the Kabbalah or something.
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It could be that the four elements of CT and the six elements of CC are two interpretations of the same fundamental force. Perhaps the elements, in both interpretations, are emanations of one fundamental magical force, like the Sephirat emanations of God in the Kabbalah or something.
Yes, that sounds reasonable.
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I hope that isn't sarcasm, as you've been known to use without explanation.
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I hope that isn't sarcasm, as you've been known to use without explanation.
No, I think you're confusing me with you and Sentenal, hun :) I'm not bitchy enough to use the lowest form of wit :)
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And yet you just used it. Way to go, hypocrite. XD
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And yet you just used it. Way to go, hypocrite. XD
It wasn't sarcasm though :P