Chrono Compendium
Enhasa Halls - Chrono Series Analysis => Time, Space, and Dimensions => Topic started by: Eske on December 24, 2008, 03:01:54 am
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The Compendium traditionally holds that the Marle Paradox (her apparently being subject to the grandfather paradox in 600AD) is an exception to the rule or some strange anomaly, or a move made by the Entity.
This seems to come from the view that the Marle Paradox = the Grandfather Paradox. Her ancestor disappears, so she also vanishes. Lucca even explains this in the game with a little mini cutscene.
To ignore a scene from the game that is further explained by another scene in the game or dismiss it as an oversight when developing theories is just wrong in my opinion.
I understand why the Compendium seems to feel this way:
1) All other instances that would exhibit the effects of the Grandfather Paradox do not.
2) Time Travellers are freed from causality
^^ I agree with both statements, but let's take a look at the situation at hand from the perspective of another popular theory here: Time Bastard
Person A in Time X goes to Time X-10
When their double, Person A', approaches Time X, he vanishes, but why?
Its not that doubles can't exist so much as extra information cannot exist.
Time Bastard just happens to discard extra information that is duplicate to the Time Traveller.
I propose that, instead of being an exception to the rule, The Marle Paradox is simply the demonstration of a different rule.
It isn't an example of the Grandfather Paradox, its an example of Conservation.
Like the doubles, Marle and her ancestors after Leene are closest to the entity that was changed.
Leene was that entity. In the new 1000AD, the matter that would have been a part of Marle still exists, but Marle does not. So the version of her in 600AD is extra information. There is nothing to "TB" as it were, so something has to go to preserve balance.
The question is: why did she disappear when she did?
I don't know. My first assumption for this thread is that there is some point in time, a reference point the system can use.
For Time Bastard this reference point is easy. If A travels at Time X, the reference point is Time X - simple.
But for examples of Conservation that are indirectly related to time travel the reference point must be different.
The simple solution would be Queen Leene's death. But we see in the game that it's not the case.
So, my two cents will be:
Queen Leene is saved at Time X.
Marle travels at Time X+400 to Time X-N
At Time X the Queen is no longer saved.
When Marle reaches Time X, she will be eliminated.
Not really claiming anything, just starting the idea train...
Looking for ideas, who has 'em?
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If this were true, Robo could not visit himself in 600 A.D. working on Fiona's Forest. This sounds like a Time Cop rule of "the same matter cannot occupy the same space," but since we can, it seems that the Chrono series universe includes time in its conservation. That is, the same object can exist in the same time as its predecessor, though the Time Error "age" will be different for the two people.
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If this were true, Robo could not visit himself in 600 A.D. working on Fiona's Forest. This sounds like a Time Cop rule of "the same matter cannot occupy the same space," but since we can, it seems that the Chrono series universe includes time in its conservation. That is, the same object can exist in the same time as its predecessor, though the Time Error "age" will be different for the two people.
No, I understand that Robo can visit himself in 600AD.
Robo A is left in 600AD
Robo B is picked up in 1000AD
Robo B goes back in time at Time X to visit Robo A
Robo A is TB'ed at Time X.
^I understand how that works but this is different.
Looking at the timeline as a whole, the matter that comprises Marle originally exists in the form of Marle.
Marle travelling into the past isn't the issue, TB will prevent extra information.
But Marle makes it so that the matter that would comprise her never does.
That matter still exists in 1000AD, at the point where Marle would have entered the gate.
Either that matter needs to be eliminated (TB style) or the Marle in 600AD does.
In the game, we see the Marle in 600AD vanish.
The Robo example shows matter being "moved around" on the timeline - which is no problem. There is X amount of matter at all times.
Marle departs 1000AD at Time X: The Marle example shows that Marle and [matter value]=Marle would both exist on the timeline up to Time X. At that point, one of them has to go.
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I always see Marle's disappearance as the way to 'repair the damage' done by her accidental time travel.
As seen in the attached picture:
1.- Leene is captured.
2.- Leene is rescued.
3.- Telepod Incident. (First time Marle travels, second time TB claims Marle and Crono travels, third
time TB claims Marle and Crono and Lucca travels, any time line after TB
claims all three.)
4.- Marle appears, is found, and the search is over.
5.- Marle disappears, the search is resumed, or it doesn't, although Frog goes anyway no matter the
outcome.
6.- Crono appears.
7.- Lucca appears.
8.- Marle reappears.
It may not be correct, but that's how I think the whole thing went.
There are some problems still in there, like what happened between events 2 and 3 in the third time line since Crono, and possibly Marle if she reappeared, are now stuck in 600 AD until Lucca travels.
Also, it would be the cause of her disappearance. We could blame the Entity for it, although I'm not sure.
Even if it's proven wrong, well, at least I tried.
[attachment deleted by admin]
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This is an interesting scenario as I have traditionally sided with the Compenidum's analysis of the Marle paradox.
At first when I was reading your post, I was thinking essentially what Zeality was and I further thought that what we have been discussing in the other thread about time and dimensional travel is a special case. What I mean by this is that the examples of TB working in an unnatural way, which we proved in the other thread about as thoroughly as we could, happens because of the dimensions being split and reunified and matter being created/combined so that a problem of duplicate matter caused TB to work in a different fashion than it normally does.
But then after reading your response to Zeality I am not so sure anymore. The Marle case is unique, to be sure. But I raise the following question:
Why wouldn't the atoms that composed Marle in 1000 A.D. just disappear as a person normally would due to Time Bastard?
In proposing your theory, Eske, you would have to explain this. But here, I'll help you out. If TB does indeed work by sucking an individual into a single "black gate", perhaps a single black gate could not TB away all the atoms which formerly composed Marle in 1000 AD, so instead the Marle in 600 AD was TB'd away to conserve matter?
But then, why did she disappear when she did and not immediately upon entering 600 AD? You would have to explain this as well. The Entity explanation still makes more sense to me.
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I came up with a wild theory equating Marle's disappearance and Chronopolis' disappearance in Home World, you can see it here. http://www.chronocompendium.com/Forums/index.php?topic=5755.15 (http://www.chronocompendium.com/Forums/index.php?topic=5755.15)
It basically says that TTI is overruled in these two situations due to the irregularity of the time travel incident, but I don't think it was considered much or accepted at all. However, I'm sticking to it...
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This is an interesting scenario as I have traditionally sided with the Compendium's analysis of the Marle paradox.
At first when I was reading your post, I was thinking essentially what Zeality was and I further thought that what we have been discussing in the other thread about time and dimensional travel is a special case. What I mean by this is that the examples of TB working in an unnatural way, which we proved in the other thread about as thoroughly as we could, happens because of the dimensions being split and reunified and matter being created/combined so that a problem of duplicate matter caused TB to work in a different fashion than it normally does.
But then after reading your response to Zeality I am not so sure anymore. The Marle case is unique, to be sure. But I raise the following question:
Why wouldn't the atoms that composed Marle in 1000 A.D. just disappear as a person normally would due to Time Bastard?
In proposing your theory, Eske, you would have to explain this. But here, I'll help you out. If TB does indeed work by sucking an individual into a single "black gate", perhaps a single black gate could not TB away all the atoms which formerly composed Marle in 1000 AD, so instead the Marle in 600 AD was TB'd away to conserve matter?
But then, why did she disappear when she did and not immediately upon entering 600 AD? You would have to explain this as well. The Entity explanation still makes more sense to me.
So you have 2 questions then:
1. Why wouldn't the matter that was to be her composition in 1000AD disappear at Time X, mimicking Time Bastard?
2. Why did she not disappear immediately upon entering 600AD.
I have 2 answers:
1. Could the matter that formed Marle and her ancestors really be identified? No. So how does the system decide what matter to eliminate in 1000AD at Time X?
It doesn't - it takes the path of least Resistance and deletes the matter corresponding to Marle in 600AD.
Remember that with Time Bastard, the time traveller, as an entity, still exists up to Time X. At Time X that entity's original version entered a gate. If this new version does not, it will vanish because at this point it is extra information. If it does enter the gate it will vanish as well for the same reason.
2. Not just this, but why did the timeline not reset as soon as she travelled to the past? How did Crono and Lucca both travel from the same 1000AD even though 600AD is now completely different? Another member, Thought, once said that I "assumed time is brittle" and that every change in the past would erase the timeline immediately would be "wasteful". He was right. So I've changed my thinking a bit.
Let's look at how time is preserved despite changes to the past:
1. Marle goes back in time to change 600AD even the slightest bit. Nothing happens.
2. Crono goes back in time and finds Marle, perhaps originally Marle never saw Crono and there was some intermediate timeline. But wait.
3. While Crono is in the past, Lucca travels from the present. There is no Crono who lives out his life in the past, so we can conclude the same goes for Marle.
Time isn't so lenient with the items in the Northern Ruins: If you take them out in 600AD, they won't be there in 1000AD. That makes sense.
But looking at the Marle example above lets play out an event assuming that there is a gate in the Northern Ruins.
at Time X Persons A and B are in the Northern Ruins and Person A time travels to 600AD.
An Item is known as Item P in 600AD and Item F in 1000AD.
With the Marle example above we see that timelines aren't reset immediately.
Person A takes Item P out of the chest.
Person B is looking at Item F in the chest, the past isn't immediately changed as in the Marle example.
But at some point it must reset. Let's see:
If Person A (an immortal) waited out the 400 years would he still see Person B looking at Item F? No. Item F isn't there, the timeline has reset. But for Person B, this never happened. How can this be explained?
My idea is a different take on the 5th axis. Time Error is the idea that if you spend Time Error Y amount of time in an era or the EoT, your entrance to a different era will be the destination time (say 600AD) + Time Error Y.
I would think that the gates merely take us so many years into the past or future, from our point in the present. So if Crono said "screw it" and waited until 1001AD to enter the Millennial Fair gate, he would end up in 601AD.
I look at it this way: Every point on the 4D axis (time) is a snapshot of everything in 3D space. Every point on the 5D axis is a snapshot of everything in 4D space.
aka - an entire timeline. In another thread I used a flipbook analogy. 4D is like flipping through the pages of a flipbook one at a time, each page being a snapshot of motion -- while 5D is seeing all the of the pages at once, seeing all of the motion at once.
I propose that these "timecycles" explain why the future isn't immediately changed for Crono and Co. when Marle travels to the past, but if she were to travel back to the future, or wait out 400 years - the future would seem to be adjusted. She is at one point on the 5D axis, while Crono and Lucca are at another - they are totally unrelated right now.
Time Error isn't needed to explain why they don't reappear as they disappear. The gates need only take an entity back/forward a set timeframe. If they reenter a gate 10 minutes after they left it, they would emerge from the other gate 10 minutes later.
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So back to the Marle Paradox.
Using the above idea that at Timecycle N the matter that is Marle exists in two places in the same timeline, Time X. She doesn't disappear upon entry to 600AD because some event at Time Y in 600AD is what determines whether or not she is able to exist later on. This event at Time Y never occurs.
Crono and Lucca at Timecycle N-1 will not be affected by the changes into the past - that timecycle will carry itself out as normal.
I don't think we will find the answer or an answer that works until we shake things up a bit. I noticed awhile ago that I approach many of the puzzles here with TE. TB. and TTI on my mind right away. I'm sure many others do the same -- They work, but alternatives might be helpful as well. I mean, what if something in Chrono Break disproved TTI? We would have to retool many theories.
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Well your answer to question 1 is pretty much the same as my answer, worded in a different way, so I naturally agree with it.
But question 2 is a bit more complicated and there are several things that I have trouble picturing as I have traditionally thought about Time Error working in a different way. These may not be real problems at all and I just have to adjust my way of thinking about it.
The first problem - the event of Marle removing Item P in 600 AD was not a part of the original timelines' past. Since Crono and Lucca do not see Item F spontaneously disappear in 1000 AD, it goes to reason that these two locations of 600 AD and 1000 AD are not linked by causality. For that matter, it goes to reason that 600 AD with Marle and 600 AD without Marle are not linked by causality either. Also, 600 AD without Marle removing Item F would have to be causally linked to 1000 AD where Item P still remains.
So when Marle time travels, she makes a move through Time Error to a "new" version of the timeline. That much is obvious. Crono and Lucca are left behind in the old timeline. Traditionally we have assumed that they are immediately shafted to the DBT, replaced by new versions of themselves in the new timeline. But what if this isn't exactly the case?
This example is 100% analagous to your Black Omen example of "seeing the Black Omen the first time around if it was sent back in time" from the other thread. I'll take the liberty of quoting you from there if you don't mind:
Crono - at Time 2300AD, Time Error N+100, is now in the future to get the new Epoch. Some years later on this timeline...
Black Omen - at Time 23XXAD, Time Error N +100, vanishes, bound for the past. But before that....
Crono - at Time 2300AD, Time Error N+100, vanishes, bound for Antiquity via Epoch. (12000BC) Resulting in.....
Crono - at Time 12000BC, Time Error N+101, appears in Antiquity.
Black Omen - at Time 12000BC+ X amount of time, Time Error N+101, appears in front of Crono and Co.
When Crono defeats Lavos and creates a new future, the fact that he travelled in the old future to the past is preserved through TTI, even if all of that information has now been replaced. A future Omen would work the same way. Even if Crono time travelling first would "push" Time Error, the entire timeline will play out and come full circle for Crono's arrival - preserving any time travelling done by anyone (or thing) after him.
If something leaves the timeline at the same point on Time Error as you, and then reappears on the same Time Error point you reappear on, but AFTER you on the timeline, you can see their entrance.
If you think about it... look at what happens when Marle goes into 600AD at the beginning of the game:
From the 600AD onward, the timeline should be discarded and there should be a new timeline where Marle is never born in 1000AD.
But that isn't what happens -- the old 1000AD and onward still plays out. That means we are still in the same Time Error. Even crazier is that Crono time travels from there! That means, from Marle's perspective, Crono eventually comes for her. There is no Marle who lives out her life in 600AD to old age, or even a 600AD where the Queen is never saved.
Now, the game conveniently gives the opposite perspective. While the player is in 600AD, Lucca travels into the past, changing the timeline yet again, but still there is no Crono who lives out to old age or one that rescues the Queen on his own. All 3 of them travel from the same point on Time Error, and end up on the same point because each one travelled/arrived after the other and the timeline continued to run its full course before resetting.
In conclusion, it is possible for the Black Omen to have travelled from a very distant future to the past, appearing in Antiquity X amount of time after Crono and Co.
So it seems you have even predicted this yourself. If Crono and Lucca time travel after Marle on the old timeline, they will still appear in the new timeline with Marle!
If one views time as cyclical and not linear, with time/space beginning and some point and ending at another, and then starting again in the same way with everything playing out exactly the same except for time travel interference (think eternal recurrence), then this actually predicts that the future containing Crono and Lucca is not sent to the DBT until the entire cycle plays out. When they time travel and move through Time Error, they are essentially "bypassing" the entire future history of their universe and ending up in the new one!
EDIT: Hmm, this is actually an entirely new way of thinking about the concept of the "DBT". I've never seen anyone else talk about it this way actually.
Now, I don't think question 2 is actually that relevant to the Marle Paradox now that I think about it. It certainly explains why Marle and Crono don't subsequently live out their entire lives once before they can continue their quest, but it's not relevant. Only question 1 is. And I think that question 1 is very well explained by assuming that the timeline takes the "path of least resistance" by eliminating Marle in 600 AD instead of the bajillion trillions of atoms that previously composed her in 1000 AD.
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Yea. If you think about it, there is no such thing as "time travel", its "time error travel" because no matter what you do you will move forward in time error.
Though I'm using Time Error in a slightly different sense. So its like you said, when they travel in time, they skip the rest of their cycle and move onto the next one.
The question "why was Marle eliminated?" is easy to answer in my opinion: Shes extra info, shes easier to eliminate.
The problem remains: "why was Marle eliminated at that specific time?"
Oi, that makes my head hurt.
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Not necessarily. Let's look at my example of eternal recurrence a little more closely.
To an outside observer on a perpendicular timeflow such as the End of Time looking down at the timeline, they would see a static series of all events in that timeline, as your analogy suggested. But to a person living out their life on the timeline, they would feel as though they are progressing through time (and rightly so). So a reasonable question can be asked: Is there a single "present", or "multiple presents?". To the outside observer, he would surely answer "multiple" because that is what it looks like to him. To the inside observer, he would surely answer "single" because that is what it looks like to him. But what is the right answer? The truth is somewhere in between.
If there is a "single" present and time progresses linearly, because time is perpendicular for the outside observer he would still see the timeline as if it had "multiple" presents. So if we go on the assumption of a "single" present time we have the following example:
Time Error 0: Marle time travels to 600 AD, followed by Crono and Lucca.
Time Error 1: The universe begins again nd time plays out until 600 AD when Marle arrives. She effectively changes the future so that she doesn't exist, but at what point? For Marle, she is existing in the true present state of the universe. There is no future in existence yet, only a collage of potential futures which depends on the choices and actions that people make in this present of 600 AD. When the time rolls around that the particular causal series of events in the future is altered so that she doesn't exist any longer - then bam she is TB'd away by the path of least resistance. This would create the illusion that time travelers do not have TTI, when in reality this is just a unique case.
So, regardless of what one may think, the Marle situation is unique and does not invalidate TTI theory, it may just be an exception to it. If one were to make the assumption that TB follows the path of least resistance at all times, wiping out Marle in 600 AD rather than all of the bajillions of atoms that composed her in 1000 AD, then a necessary conclusion from that would be that if a time traveller alters the future so that he does not exist, then he will cease to exist at that moment due to TB.
Now, I don't necessarily believe that this is the case. I think the Marle paradox was an oversight by developers, and this entire theory rests on the back of the assumption that TB follows the path of least resistance. However, it demonstrates that there may be a second and perfectly rational explanation to the Marle paradox that is in line with respected theory, rather than stupidly asserting:
"The Entity did it!" - as I have seen so many Compendium members say before. Think outside of the box a little bit people, christ.
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However, it demonstrates that there may be a second and perfectly rational explanation to the Marle paradox that is in line with respected theory, rather than stupidly asserting:
"The Entity did it!" - as I have seen so many Compendium members say before. Think outside of the box a little bit people, christ.
I still don't see how Marle is an exception. She shouldn't disappear like in the many other cases of time travel done.
Agreed, saying it was the Entity is just the easy way out.
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She is an interesting case because it is the lone instance in the game where the actions of the time travellers actually lead to a future in which they do not exist (excluding the end of the game with the Robo problem).
The concept of her being an exception came from the possibility that if people are TB'd away by black gates, then would bajillions of tiny black gates be created to TB out all the atoms that once were part of Marle's body? What if those atoms are now part of other things? Would TB follow the "path of least resistance" and just eliminate Marle in the past? Since there is no real physical equivalent to TB and TTI and it is inferred from strong evidence within the game, there is nothing that is set in stone saying that TB has to work this way and not the other.
I still think it was just developer oversight though. I have no problem with the concept of the atoms that once made up Marle's body disappearing in 1000 AD. TTI should mean that time travellers are immune from all changes they make to the timeline, including changes in which they cease to exist in the future.
But, since Eske and I have been pretty much systematically dismantling and reassembling the theories here on the Compendium in this forum lately, the Marle paradox was fair game.
End conclusion: It could be an exception to TTI. Or it could be developer oversight and mean nothing, akin to saying "The Entity did it".
I have no problem with either conclusion, I just have a problem with people saying "The Entity did it!" as a way of copping out of an intelligent, thought provoking conversation.
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I'm new to this, so if this is completely stupid or already not accepted as the reason then I'm sorry. Isn't it possible that the reason Marle disappeared without Leene being dead is because had Yakra not been stopped by Crono and company that Leene would have been murdered. If that had happen Marle would have ceased to exist in the present and it was possibly a warning for Crono kind of like the fading pictures in Back to the Future. If this is completely illogical feel free to call me a tard.
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I'm new to this, so if this is completely stupid or already not accepted as the reason then I'm sorry. Isn't it possible that the reason Marle disappeared without Leene being dead is because had Yakra not been stopped by Crono and company that Leene would have been murdered. If that had happen Marle would have ceased to exist in the present and it was possibly a warning for Crono kind of like the fading pictures in Back to the Future. If this is completely illogical feel free to call me a tard.
Well, that is also what I think. In a previous post I have how I think the whole thing happened. Not entirely correct I know but, it's something.
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End conclusion: It could be an exception to TTI. Or it could be developer oversight and mean nothing, akin to saying "The Entity did it".
I have no problem with either conclusion, I just have a problem with people saying "The Entity did it!" as a way of copping out of an intelligent, thought provoking conversation.
It isn't an exception to TTI. TTI preserves nothing more than her arrival from the gate in 600AD - after that she, like everyone else, is fair game.
I'm new to this, so if this is completely stupid or already not accepted as the reason then I'm sorry. Isn't it possible that the reason Marle disappeared without Leene being dead is because had Yakra not been stopped by Crono and company that Leene would have been murdered. If that had happen Marle would have ceased to exist in the present and it was possibly a warning for Crono kind of like the fading pictures in Back to the Future. If this is completely illogical feel free to call me a tard.
That is something I've been trying to figure out. Why did she disappear when she did? It might have something to do with the lack of Marle in the new 1000AD or, like you said, some point before the Queen would have died - somehow, the system determined Marle had to go.
I'm new to this, so if this is completely stupid or already not accepted as the reason then I'm sorry. Isn't it possible that the reason Marle disappeared without Leene being dead is because had Yakra not been stopped by Crono and company that Leene would have been murdered. If that had happen Marle would have ceased to exist in the present and it was possibly a warning for Crono kind of like the fading pictures in Back to the Future. If this is completely illogical feel free to call me a tard.
Well, that is also what I think. In a previous post I have how I think the whole thing happened. Not entirely correct I know but, it's something.
The model you had earlier was correct except it had too many timelines. For whatever reason, the timeline does not reset when Marle travels back in time - so all three of them arrive on the same, new timeline. Other than that, the sequence was correct and in line with what Jutty posted.
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The model you had earlier was correct except it had too many timelines. For whatever reason, the timeline does not reset when Marle travels back in time - so all three of them arrive on the same, new timeline. Other than that, the sequence was correct and in line with what Jutty posted.
And where does it says that when we start the game, we are in the original time line? We could now be in the second one, when it's Crono's turn to travel.
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If Marle goes back in time and resets the timeline, Crono would never have met her. So it could only be a "Crono's Turn" scenario if Marle was never shown in 1000AD.
Also, while Crono is in the past, Lucca travels into the past after him. By your logic, the game would have to skip a timeline to show Lucca's arrival
So we see that all 3 arrive in same timeline, from the same parent timeline.
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Then again Marle could have been taken to the end of time due to Leene's likely death coming up.
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It isn't an exception to TTI. TTI preserves nothing more than her arrival from the gate in 600AD - after that she, like everyone else, is fair game.
No, no Eske I meant an exception to the traditional idea that TTI makes time travellers immune to changes they make in the time line. I'm well aware that it is really a modified version of Time Bastard in action, if it is correct.
And where does it says that when we start the game, we are in the original time line? We could now be in the second one, when it's Crono's turn to travel.
This likely doesn't matter anyways, because Eske and I have shown that when two time travellers from the same timeline travel back in time apart from each other, they still end up in the same new timeline on the Time Error axis.
Ex:
Time Error 0: Marle travels back in time at Time X to Time X-400. Crono travels back in time at Time X+10 minutes to Time X-400+10 minutes.
Time Error 1: Marle arrives at Time X-400. Crono arrives at Time X-400+10 minutes.
The future isn't immediately sent to the DBT the moment Marle travels back in time.
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Then again Marle could have been taken to the end of time due to Leene's likely death coming up.
Time Error says no. If Leene had in fact died, then maybe you would have a point of a sort. But until things actually happen, they don't affect the timeline. This is the most irritating part of the paradox.
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Then again Marle could have been taken to the end of time due to Leene's likely death coming up.
Time Error says no. If Leene had in fact died, then maybe you would have a point of a sort. But until things actually happen, they don't affect the timeline. This is the most irritating part of the paradox.
I'm confused as to what you mean by "Time Error says no" here. Time Error wouldn't really have anything to do with it. Time Bastard might, but only because Marle no longer exists in 1,000 AD to be TB'd away, so by Eske's theory that the timeline takes the "path of least resistance", Marle may instead be TB'd away in 600 AD. Which makes sense. Actually, it is the only logical explanation for the Marle paradox that anyone has come up with besides "The Entity did it", to tell you the truth.
But the question remains, why would Marle be TB'd away at that particular point if Queen Leene hasn't died yet? Well perhaps she doesn't have to. The future is a collage of possibility, a bunch of potential futures that haven't been actualized yet. Perhaps Marle's presence there in the castle at that particular time set a chain of events into motion that would eventually ultimately lead to the Queen's death unless Crono and Lucca intervened.
Or maybe not. I still think it's just developer oversight. It's definitely interesting thinking about it in a different way though :D
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My view of "Time Error" is a bit different than most people's. I view it as another continuous time axis that underlies the normal time axis. So, for instance, in this situation:
Marle travels back from 1000 AD, 0 TE to 600 AD, 0 TE.
Time and Time Error Progress.
Crono arrives in 600 AD at X TE, to watch Marle disappear, where X is the amount of time between Marle going through the Gate and vanishing.
However, it's at a later time and Time Error when Leene is supposed to die. Let's call this Y.
Due to the nature of the Chronoverse, a potentiality is not automatically actualized. Therefore, it's at Y when the future is rewritten and sent to the DBT. A time traveler going to the future after Y TE would see the new future without Marle in it.
If Marle were to vanish at all, it would be at Y TE, regardless of her position on the time axis. Then again, TTI says she shouldn't vanish.
Once again, I probably have some assumption utterly wrong though...
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It's pretty close actually. But the more useful and more general application of it would be to think of Time Error as a parallel time axis that only time travellers move though. Ie: A 5D time axis that only time travellers experience by time travelling. This neatly explains why Crono and co. seem to exist on a time axis of their own by time travelling. In your example, not only do time travellers move through time error to Time Error X when Crono enters the gate, but so do all normal people in the timeline as well. So if you were to think of Time Error this way, you would still need an extra 5D time axis to explain events in time.
So basically, whenever a time traveller actually time travels they make a 5D move through Time Error. So an entire timeline can be thought of existing at Time Error 0 without Marle in 600 AD. And then at Time Error 1 an entire timeline can be thought of existing with Marle at 600 AD.
But what is interesting that Eske pointed out in this thread is that two time travellers who travel separately from each other on the same timeline end up at the same point in Time Error:
Time Error 0: Marle goes to 600 AD at Time X. Crono goes to 600 AD at time X+10 minutes.
Time Error 1: Marle arrives at 600 AD. Crono arrives at 600 AD ten minutes later.
So you see, here I have accounted for the discrepency in time between when they have entered the gate, and also for their 5D movement through time. Time Error was not necessary for the time discrepency, just for the 5D movement. This example also shows that the two time travellers don't end up at different points in Time Error, and that a future isn't sent to the DBT every time someone time travels, which is a belief that the Compendium still holds.
Due to the nature of the Chronoverse, a potentiality is not automatically actualized. Therefore, it's at Y when the future is rewritten and sent to the DBT.
True. Chrono Cross confirms this by saying that the future is analagous to a collage of possibilities, depending on the actions taken by people in the present. But we were discussing the possibility of Marle not having to disappear at "Time Y" as you name it, or at the exact moment that Leene dies. If the future is undetermined until people make actions in the present in the Chronoverse, then what if the actions of some random soldier in Guardia castle for example make it 100% certain that Queen Leene would die in the future? Would Marle disappear at that moment or only when Queen Leene disappears? Why not at that exact moment, as that would be the first link in a change of causality that would ultimately lead to her death? Or would she disappear if Crono and co. would save her anyways?
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I see the term "developer oversight" thrown around by 100 people in reference to the Marle Paradox. But let's really think about this...
Does anyone really think the idea of "doubles" even occurred to the developers?
What about the idea that another version of Person A may not time travel at time X if something at time X-400 changes?
What about how Ayla is Marle's ancestor, but is completely absent for 65000000 years from the timeline, without Marle vanishing?
The fact that the End of Time is supposed to be what its name implies, yet Gaspar can witness all of the changes to the timeline unchanged himself?
^^ THESE are developer oversights. These are things that probably never occurred to them.
The Marle Paradox was an event in the game that was actually explained by Lucca with a little cutscene all its own. It is intended - its supposed to show how things work. We are the ones who looked a little too far into things and saw that the mechanics of the game fall apart if the grandfather paradox exists, but lets face it -- it was supposed to exist.
Many of the rules of the Compendium exist to explain and support the OVERSIGHTS, while shunning an actual, almost fully explained event in the game.
Sometimes there is just no way to reconcile the impossible differences we see in games, especially one that deals with time travel.
But if we are going to try, I think it's better to give the in-game events - that were meant to be highlighted - the attention they deserve and work from there.
[/almostangryrant]
I'm playing through CT again right now, hopefully I can work up a few basic rules that aren't upset by highlighted events in the game. wish me luck
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Yeah, that's true Eske. I suppose me saying "developer oversight" is tantamount to me saying "The Entity did it.", which likewise pisses me off.
That is actually a pretty good argument in fact, and I would say the argument itself, separate from the mechanics of TTI and TB is evidence alone that the Marle paradox could be 100% explained by an unusual TB event.
I mean we've explained all of the actual developer oversight away with TTI, TB, and now DTI and DB - and they work remarkably well to explain and even predict plot points in the games. So why not make the Marle paradox fit with that instead of just writing it off as "The Entity did it" or "developer oversight?"
I mean why not, the entire Marle paradox can be explained by TB working in a way it doesn't normally work in. To say "but that's not the way TB works!" is rediculous. TB is a theory that was created to explain time travel mechanics, and it works remarkably well. So well in fact that I have said on multiple occasions that you cannot have a time travel story that is paradox-free without TB and TTI or something like them.
So I say hell, screw the Marle paradox. I think Eske has given an explanation for it that is not only better than the Compendium's current explanation but is actually potentially supported by the Compendium's own theories and by a rhetorical argument on what the developers of the game originally intended. If I may quote myself:
Actually, it is the only logical explanation for the Marle paradox that anyone has come up with besides "The Entity did it", to tell you the truth.
And I stand by those words.
I like the fact that we are systematically taking apart all of the Compendium's theories one by one Eske. Someone should really do something about that. Maybe we could be particular pains in the proverbial ass and see if we can dismantle TB and TTI and replace them with something better, or at least something equivalent? (I'll bet money right now that we can't though)
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I'm now convinced. It is a unique case. But I still don't see how it was created. Why her time travel didn't followed like the other time travels done in the game?
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My viewpoint (Eske's is probably similar but might differ slightly):
Her time travel itself was fine, it was the same as all other instances of time travel - but her appearance there and subsequently being found by the soldiers in Truce Canyon changed history in such a way that the Queen eventually dies and Marle is never born. Throughout the rest of their adventure, they never change the timeline like this except for the ending where it is possible that Robo was never created.
So now you have a conservation of energy problem. Take a normal instance of time travel that doesn't cause significant changes to the timeline as an example. Timelines want to have a net balance of (0) when you are talking about conserving matter. For simplicity I'll assign a time travel disappearance event as (-1) and reappearance as (+1). The original instance of time travel doesn't matter:
Time Error 0: Time Traveller A goes back in time at Time X to Time X-400
Time Error 1: Time Traveller A appears at Time X-400 (+1). At Time X Time Traveller A' is deleted from the timeline (-1).
Net timeline value= (0).
Now look at the Marle case:
Time Error 0: Marle goes back in time at Time X to time X-400.
Time Error 1: Marle appears at Time X-400 (+1) but the future is changed so that she no longer exists at Time X. So there are two possibilities to balance the timeline now:
Possibility 1: All of the atoms that once composed Marle's body at Time X disappear simultaneously due to TB (-1). Net value=0
Possibility 2: Timeline takes the path of least resistance. Marle disappears herself at a certain point in time in the past. Say Time X-400+12 hours for example (-1). Net value=0
Either way matter is conserved. It's a perfectly plausible explanation that is 200% better than "The Entity did it!"
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Understood. I'm fully convinced now.
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So between me, Eske, placidchap and all other contributers to our recent discussions, we've proven Dimensional Bastard and Dimensional Travellers Immunity, that the Pocket Dimension can't exist, that the Marle Paradox can easily be explained in an alternate way, and a new ending theory for Chrono Cross that passes Occam's razor better than the Compendium's current one.
This is fun. Now let's find something else to totally prove wrong. Suggestions?
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How about the Guardia Paradox? Or is it too much?
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How about the Guardia Paradox? Or is it too much?
]
What is the Guardia Paradox?
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The one where it says why there is still a Guardia Royal Family if Ayla traveled to the future. Then add the same except replace them with Doan and Marle respectively. And don't forget King Guardia XXI in the ending.
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Haha well, I never really considered the Guardia paradox to be much of a paradox, at least not in the way that the "Marle paradox" was considered to be.
What I mean by this is, Ayla is supposed to be the ancestor of Marle (we'll address Doan in a second). Now, the Chrono series has never exactly held true to conventional science, but logically speaking - if you had an ancestor that existed millions of years ago, but you built a time machine and removed that person from the time line, would you effectively cease to exist in the new timeline? I think that this is an unlikely scenario, because a given individual is composed of genes that are shared with people in their immediate family and (in the past) their immediate tribal population. Furthermore, the more distant an ancestor is in the past, the less they actually contribute to a far future descendents genetic makeup. So if Ayla never existed to be the ancestor of Marle, it's possible that Marle and the Guardia royal line would still exist anyways. She might be a slightly different Marle, but Marle nonetheless.
As for Doan's case, 1,300 years may be a short enough time to have a dramatic effect on his existence by removing Marle from the timeline. Especially because she seemed to be the sole heir to the Guardia royal throne.
But for these paradoxes, you don't find out about the Ayla-Marle-Doan connection until the ending of the game, and it may have just been thrown in there as a developer oversight without them thinking about the complications that arose. So I don't think there's much we can really debate there unless Eske has a different opinion.
EDIT: Alright, I've got something we can discuss and settle once and for all - the formation of the Dead Sea. Why did it happen? Why is it "frozen" in time? I think that with what me and Eske and everyone has been discussing in these recent threads about strange ways that Time Bastard could work in the Marle Paradox, and with the abnormal ways that TTI and TB work in the split timeline, that we could shed some real light on this. Indeed, the question of "Why did it happen?" has already been pretty much answered by us in the other thread. I have an idea that combined with some things we have come up with in this thread could make it even clearer.
I'll start another thread though, so if people still want to discuss the Marle paradox here they can.
EDIT #2: Shit, this is an enormous amount of information. This will take me about a day to organize into a post. Bear with me. My basic idea is this: Eske and I have shown that the existence of the Dead Sea is actually predicted by the way that TTI behaves after a dimensional split. We have also shown that re-unifying the dimensions restores the ruined future. The Compendium holds to the idea that a future is not actualized until it happens. ie: Potentiality does not exist in the Chronoverse. This ignores the Marle Paradox, and as we have shown here a potential event could very well alter the future (and Marle's existence) before Queen Leene's death actually happens.
Therefore, taking another look at the Dead Sea with these ideas in mind: We show why it forms using our new principles of time and dimensional travel, we show why the future is saved by unifying the dimensions, and we show that the mere possibility that the future will be destroyed because of Serge is enough to bring the Dead Sea into existence. This will take a long time to organize as it draws together ideas from many different threads.
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The one where it says why there is still a Guardia Royal Family if Ayla traveled to the future. Then add the same except replace them with Doan and Marle respectively. And don't forget King Guardia XXI in the ending.
Well, it's late but ill give it a shot.
Recall that while Marle was in the past, Crono and Lucca experienced zero change. The timeline did not reset.
By conventional models here, when Ayla leaves the past bound for the future, she should land in a timeline where she never returned, and never had children - thus no Guardia. That doesn't happen. This view of time travel, even though it makes sense to us, doesn't represent how time travel works in CT and should be abandoned.
As the Leene example shows, rather than Marle's arrival in 600AD or Leene's death, time chose a seemingly arbitrary point to delete Marle. So time works in mysterious ways in Chrono Trigger....
^^ This is me brainstorming, now back to Ayla:
First, lets play a little perspective game:
Crono and Marle are in 1000AD. Crono needs to run to 2300AD and get a package. He promises her that he will be back in 10 minutes.
Now, in this example, you are Marle (lol). You wait by the gate and sure enough, Crono emerges 10 minutes after he left.
Did Crono keep his promise?
Obvious answer is yes.... but wait - for that 10 minutes, was Crono in a 2300AD where he NEVER returned and Marle lived out her life alone? Remember that we see Crono and Lucca come from the future to the past in 600AD - with no intermediate timeline. So the "lonely Marle" should never exist. You, as Marle, did not wait for more than 10 minutes. There is no intermediate timeline so "lonely Marle" was not sent to the DBT. So what happened? What would Crono read in a history book in 2300AD?
The answer, I believe, is that Crono lands in a possible future, rather than the "future" itself. This future is based upon the sum of the events in the past and means nothing if Crono chooses to time travel again. Even if our Marle never experiences a life-long wait - there is no predestiny in Chrono Trigger (it's a central theme), so Crono wouldn't read something about himself going into the past before he "did it". He would read that Marle waited her whole life, even though she doesn't.
It isn't exactly the same but it can relate to this: When Marle travels to 600AD and changes history, things are officially different. But Crono could ditch the telepod scene, pick up a history book and see nothing about the Queen being rescued in Truce Canyon. Her past experience doesn't affect Crono's present experience. The same goes for my package example above: their experiences in the present and future are unrelated.
hmmm neat...
We need to solve puzzles like this to figure out the "Guardia Paradox". I believe Compendium models will hold that he technically couldn't keep his promise, because he doesn't "come back" to the timeline for 1300 years. Leaving Marle all alone.
I don't know if I agree...
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Crono and Marle are in 1000AD. Crono needs to run to 2300AD and get a package. He promises her that he will be back in 10 minutes.
Now, in this example, you are Marle (lol). You wait by the gate and sure enough, Crono emerges 10 minutes after he left.
Damn I'm up late trying to organize ideas for this new Dead Sea post. I think everything we have talked about actually explains the Dead Sea, but I'm not sure yet. It's hugely complicated and I'm tired. I'm not too tired to realize that this however, is probably not correct Eske. Let's draw out the diagrams again, starting with the previous "two time travellers travelling apart example".
Time Error 0: Marle travels at Time X to Time X-400. Crono travels at Time X+10 minutes to Time X-400+10 minutes.
Time Error 1: Marle arrives at Time X-400. Crono arrives at Time X-400+10 minutes.
Both of them have time travelled, so they both arrive at Time Error 1. But what if one person time travels and the other waits for him to return as in your example?
Time Error 0: Crono travels at Time X to Time X-400. Marle sits and waits for him to return.
Time Error 1: Crono arrives at Time X-400. Sits around for awhile, and then travels again at Time X-400+10 minutes to Time X+10 minutes.
Two things could happen now and both have the same effect. Crono could remain at Time Error 1 and travel to the future to Time X+10 minutes. Or-
Time Error 2: Crono arrives at Time X+10 minutes and sees Marle waiting for him. But is she the original Marle?
She is not. For her to be the original Marle would mean that Crono would have to travel backwards in Time Error. Unless we can prove that this can happen (by creating a paradox if it couldn't), then we will assume that backwards travel through Time Error is impossible. The original Marle waits out her life for Crono to return but he never does. This explains two things: 1) Why the original Marle couldn't read in a history book about Crono's time travel to the past and 2) Why the Marle at Time Error 2 could.
Each rung in the ladder of Time Error could be viewed as a self contained universe in a state of eternal recurrence. It has to be this way, otherwise it wouldn't explain why two time travellers travelling apart as per the first example would arrive at the same point of Time Error (think about it and you'll realize this is the case).
Time Error 0: Universe begins, Crono Time travels to Time X-400, Marle remains. Eventually the universe ends. This version of the universe doesn't have Crono existing at Time X-400.
Time Error 1: Universe begins again, Crono appears at Time X-400. This version of the universe has Crono existing at Time X-400. etc.
Unless I've made a terrible oversight, Marle could not be the same. Only if she time travelled with him or after him would she not live out her life in loneliness.
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So if Ayla never existed to be the ancestor of Marle, it's possible that Marle and the Guardia royal line would still exist anyways. She might be a slightly different Marle, but Marle nonetheless.
Well, even if there's another Marle exists if Ayla never existed, it is another story, or we say, another time line. Even if there's a person named Marle, but things are completely different.
In fact, in CT, things are not that complex. And I agree with you, CT didn't exactly hold true to conventional science, it is more like a half science half marvel fiction, the Entity sounds like a half God like thing, yeah, if you think something is unusual, well, the Entity did it...
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Off topic:
Yeah, according to the cause and effect common sense, if a person exists now, so did his ancestors. So there are 2 possibilities:
1. You can't travel backward in the time line.
2. If you can travel backward, but you can never change the fact. For example, if you attempt to murder one of your ancestors, you will 100% fail to do that.
I think neither of the 2 is suitable for CT.
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Eske attempted to solve the problem but the answer involved travelling backwards in Time Error. I think the Ayla/Doan/Guardia paradox is unsolveable. It was overlooked and is only mentioned at the very end of the game. I think in light of other more significant events in the game we can ignore it if we can't come up with a reasonable answer.
On a related note, I'm not going to make a post regarding The Dead Sea until we make a separate post detailing everything we have squared away so far that is wrong with the Compendium's theories. I don't want to confuse too many people by drawing from different threads when I could just draw from one. So first I'm going to make a topic concerning potentiality and the concept of many possible futures overlapping, constantly changing depending on events in the present. The Compendium holds that this isn't the case (despite being mentioned in Chrono Cross. So I'd say it's canon then). And besides that, our new analysis of the Marle paradox shows that if we assume that this is the case, and we assume that Time Bastard follows the path of least resistance, then it could actually explain the Marle paradox.
Which is very signficant I think. The Dead Sea is the pinnacle of Chronoverse complexity. Some of the new theories we have been developing here let us think about it in a different light, but we're not ready to completely tear apart the Compendium's articles yet.
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Crono and Marle are in 1000AD. Crono needs to run to 2300AD and get a package. He promises her that he will be back in 10 minutes.
Now, in this example, you are Marle (lol). You wait by the gate and sure enough, Crono emerges 10 minutes after he left.
Damn I'm up late trying to organize ideas for this new Dead Sea post. I think everything we have talked about actually explains the Dead Sea, but I'm not sure yet. It's hugely complicated and I'm tired. I'm not too tired to realize that this however, is probably not correct Eske. Let's draw out the diagrams again, starting with the previous "two time travellers travelling apart example".
Time Error 0: Marle travels at Time X to Time X-400. Crono travels at Time X+10 minutes to Time X-400+10 minutes.
Time Error 1: Marle arrives at Time X-400. Crono arrives at Time X-400+10 minutes.
Both of them have time travelled, so they both arrive at Time Error 1. But what if one person time travels and the other waits for him to return as in your example?
Time Error 0: Crono travels at Time X to Time X-400. Marle sits and waits for him to return.
Time Error 1: Crono arrives at Time X-400. Sits around for awhile, and then travels again at Time X-400+10 minutes to Time X+10 minutes.
Two things could happen now and both have the same effect. Crono could remain at Time Error 1 and travel to the future to Time X+10 minutes. Or-
Time Error 2: Crono arrives at Time X+10 minutes and sees Marle waiting for him. But is she the original Marle?
She is not. For her to be the original Marle would mean that Crono would have to travel backwards in Time Error. Unless we can prove that this can happen (by creating a paradox if it couldn't), then we will assume that backwards travel through Time Error is impossible. The original Marle waits out her life for Crono to return but he never does. This explains two things: 1) Why the original Marle couldn't read in a history book about Crono's time travel to the past and 2) Why the Marle at Time Error 2 could.
Each rung in the ladder of Time Error could be viewed as a self contained universe in a state of eternal recurrence. It has to be this way, otherwise it wouldn't explain why two time travellers travelling apart as per the first example would arrive at the same point of Time Error (think about it and you'll realize this is the case).
Time Error 0: Universe begins, Crono Time travels to Time X-400, Marle remains. Eventually the universe ends. This version of the universe doesn't have Crono existing at Time X-400.
Time Error 1: Universe begins again, Crono appears at Time X-400. This version of the universe has Crono existing at Time X-400. etc.
Unless I've made a terrible oversight, Marle could not be the same. Only if she time travelled with him or after him would she not live out her life in loneliness.
Well first off, you and I use Time Error in a very different way from the Compendium.
We use each point on the 5D axis to isolate a snapshot of an entire timeline - or in your words, a self contained universe.
For me, this came up as a misuse of Time Error that I actually grew to support - but it isn't fair to use that term to describe something that it isn't. We really should agree to a new term 8)
Next, the model that you used is the one that we have been using for our other threads here, and I will support it because it has helped rewrite so much. So in that regard, my example is flawed and your analysis of what would have actually happened to Marle is correct.
But I am trying to distance myself away from theories that seem too.. "disconnected" from the games.
Example: Schala seals the gate in 12000BC and Crono and Co. have to use the Epoch in 2300AD to return to Antiquity. Either the developers didn't realize that in 2300AD, the Prophet had already done everything and Zeal had already fallen and blah blah, or they didn't care. They intended for us to return to the same 12000BC we were banished from a few hours earlier.
So the Time Error 0, Time Error 1, etc model - although it works, doesn't explain an event in the game, it redefines the understanding of the game as a whole, it redefines what is happening - and that could be a big issue.
Time Bastard, on the other hand, is fine. Logically speaking, we should have a double issue. Also - Melchior and Janus just vanish into black gates, even though they are safely in the village. Getting rid of doubles preserves Conservation and avoids cluttering the past/future. Time Bastard explains an aspect of the game that is unexplained, but it doesn't redefine our understanding of the game in such a way as to cause conflict.
I hope people can understand what I mean by all of that lol :D
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Alright, so considering the above, let me provide a different explanation. We are given clues that tell us the Entity aka the Planet is remembering key times in its life - creating temporal distortions. So, when one enters the gate, they are - in a sense - travelling through time, but they are actually experiencing a flashback.
Think of Frog as he broods over Cyrus's death in front of the magic cave. He remembers important events that happened to him as a child, on Zenan Bridge, and Mt Denadoro.
What if Crono "inserted" himself into those memories and changed them? Well, for Glenn that wouldn't really change the past because those memories are only in his head - he doesn't truly link himself to a different point in time. It is a bit different for the Planet however....
I think of the Planet's flashbacks, in terms of relevance, as a point between Glenn's flashbacks (which change nothing) - and actual Time Travel (which changes everything).
Remember Lucca in the forest? She is asked if there is any time period she would like to return to - Lucca shys away from the question because she doesn't want to remember.
Look at the context - we are in the newly restored forest, the creator of the gates has just been identified as the Planet (more so in the Japanese text), and they are sleeping there. Lucca feels too guilty to think of "that moment" - but the Planet recalls it, creating a gate in the process.
Perhaps the timelines we go to are somewhat more isolated than we have been predicting all along. I've already taken the liberty of reminding people that Marle's trip to 600AD doesn't send Lucca and Crono to the DBT right away. Speaking of that...
The DBT apparently has two variations:
The DBT intended by the developers to swallow the original Lavos who ruined the world. and...
The DBT on steroids that has swallowed Lavos countless times due to changes in the timeline perceived by the Compendium.
I'm trying to support the former... :(
Basically I will be somewhat two-faced in my analysis from now on. I will have a "personal" analysis that I will usually brush aside (for now) and a "compendium" analysis like the ones I have presented thus far.
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So we already know what my "compendium" analysis is for this topic - but to keep this post on-topic I will provide my alternate interpretation of the Marle Paradox:
1. The Entity begins having flashbacks while dying.
2. At one such point, a device called the Telepod stimulates a reaction between Marle's pendant and the Gate.
3. Marle flows through the Planet's memories to 600AD.
4. The Entity recalls the Queen being saved at Time X in 600AD - but Marle provides resistance to this memory - putting her own existence into question.
5. After Time X the Entity can't properly recall Marle or Leene's other descendants - so they vanish.
6. Crono, Lucca, and Frog rescue the Queen and take her back to the castle, creating a "new Time X".
7. The Entity is now able to recall Marle again - thus Marle is reinstated.
If you look at everything from the Entity's perspective, all of the holes seem to make sense. Marle vanishes because the Entity cannot remember her anymore - this would have no bearing on Crono and Lucca.
Now look at the Guardia paradox with Ayla:
The Entity would recall Ayla conceiving her child at Time X, 65000000BC. As long as that happens, Marle will still be able to exist. Marle is lucky in that the "present" of the Entity's flashback for 65milBC is too far behind that Time X to ever be an issue. The CT adventure is over before Time X rolls around - Hence no Guardia Paradox.
I guess this pulls from the idea of a 5th axis to measure time since 4D is more of a "position" in CT. maybe
So am I saying the Entity did it? yep. But not as a plot to device to keep things moving for Crono's adventure - the Entity just forgot Marle existed. don't hit me lol :D
EDIT: spelling error
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What?
*Hides Spectral Sword behind his back*
No no. Your answer has an explanation, reasons that are understandable, so no. It's more than just 'The Entity did it', so don't think that way.
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Well first off, you and I use Time Error in a very different way from the Compendium.
We use each point on the 5D axis to isolate a snapshot of an entire timeline - or in your words, a self contained universe.
For me, this came up as a misuse of Time Error that I actually grew to support - but it isn't fair to use that term to describe something that it isn't. We really should agree to a new term 8)
Next, the model that you used is the one that we have been using for our other threads here, and I will support it because it has helped rewrite so much. So in that regard, my example is flawed and your analysis of what would have actually happened to Marle is correct.
But I am trying to distance myself away from theories that seem too.. "disconnected" from the games.
Ah okay. Yes I've grown use to pretty much discarding the Compendium's interpretation of things. What should we call our version of Time Error then? Any ideas? 5D Time? Perpendicular Time? But The End of Time appears to also be perpendicular both to the timeline and to Time Error, so that there appears to be 3 dimensions of space and 3 dimensions of time. So what is a more appropriate name?
And I see now, you were attempting to come up with an entirely alternate explanation for Time Error, TTI, TB, etc. by evidence given in-game. Noble, and creative at that. This is what I wanted to do. Question all of the Compendium's theories. I just couldn't think of something as super out of the box as your idea.
And I like it, but it will take some more tweaking. Dreams and dreaming are an important theme in Chrono Trigger. And Zurvan, the sea of dreams is mentioned in Cross and is the likely origin of the dream creatures and Masa, Mune, and Doreen.
So you have two sides of existence here:
1) The "real" world that Crono and co. live in. On a "real" timeline.
and 2) The "dream world" that presumably the Planet lives in, and the Black Omen came from, etc. and is important for "time" travel in your new theory.
You will also have to reconcile this with what is stated in Chrono Cross, that the future of a world is undetermined until people decide upon a particular action. This seems to demonstrate that the future is determined by the people living in the "real" world.
Come up with a mechanical framework for this in the same way that we have come up with a mechanical framework for the "traditional" view of time travel, and it may be just as legit (and hell, way more creative). I'll be thinking about it too.
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Yea, I'm not sure yet so I'll have to think about it some more.... but I really think there is some "partial isolation" of the timelines going on. I'm being called toward that direction right now so I'm going to just run with it until I hit a wall.
Unfortunately, because our "cycle" or "self-contained timeline" version of Time Error probably wasn't intended - I can't show too much favor towards it anymore.
Right now, the only Compendium theory related to Trigger that I feel comfortable with is the original version of Time Error. ( So yes, TB and TTI bother me )
The thing about Time Bastard is.... a "strange" situation in the game is used as evidence for it. Melchior and Janus vanish into a black gate, despite being safe in the village.
I'm sorry, but that isn't evidence for Time Bastard. Time Bastard would not have been an intended feature in Chrono Trigger. The lack of doubles is simply that - a "lack of information". So to use an event in the game that may have one meaning and twist that meaning support a theory is a shame.
So what defines as being "safe" from Lavos? If Queen Zeal wants the gurus out of her hair, its going to happen - Lavos has the means to do it. After hearing the story, Robo even commented that the black portals were probably gates created by Lavos.
But it's okay to ignore text in the game in favor of fan theory because Robo was just speculating, right? =/
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Unfortunately, because our "cycle" or "self-contained timeline" version of Time Error probably wasn't intended - I can't show too much favor towards it anymore.
Yes, but I think they didn't intend anything other than making a fun game. They weren't trying to be too technical or too philosophical. If fan theories both explain and predict events in the game adequately, then I don't see the problem with them at all.
Here's a good example I like to use. Time Travellers Immunity actually predicts and explains that the El Nido Islands would still exist even if Chronopolis never did. For a fan theory, that's pretty damned good.
So if we're going to replace fan theories with other newer fan theories, the new ones need to be at least as good as the old ones, if not better.
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Unfortunately, because our "cycle" or "self-contained timeline" version of Time Error probably wasn't intended - I can't show too much favor towards it anymore.
Yes, but I think they didn't intend anything other than making a fun game. They weren't trying to be too technical or too philosophical. If fan theories both explain and predict events in the game adequately, then I don't see the problem with them at all.
Here's a good example I like to use. Time Travellers Immunity actually predicts and explains that the El Nido Islands would still exist even if Chronopolis never did. For a fan theory, that's pretty damned good.
So if we're going to replace fan theories with other newer fan theories, the new ones need to be at least as good as the old ones, if not better.
true.
I don't mind fan theories, as long as they don't twist or ignore events in the game.
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Well in the case of Time Bastard (since you used that example, I will too), it doesn't twist or ignore the script of Chrono Trigger that says that Melchior and Janus were sucked into black gates. It interprets it a certain way. Now, there is more than one way to interpret things as you said, such as "Maybe Queen Zeal just wanted them gone". Well sure, that's a perfectly acceptable alternate interpretation.
However, that interpretation doesn't predict the fact that there is no problem of duplicates in the game. Time Bastard does. So in the case of the interpretation, both theories are equal. In the case of evidence, well, it's not really true evidence either way. But in the case of fan theories, Time Bastard is clearly superior to any equivalent theory brought up.
...YET, that is. I still hold out hope that we can come out with another one just as valid. Your theory holds potential, but right now I have a feeling that it will confuse a lot of people. It needs to be as simple as TTI/TB/Time Error and just as useful in interpreting events in the game.
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Watch this:
-- Using TTI/TB/TE in the original, Compendium form --
>>12000BC<<
Crono dies
>>End of Time<<
All playable characters are here (this matters)
Lucca, Marle, Frog have Time Egg and Doppel
These three take Epoch to 2300AD at Time X
>>2300AD<<
Epoch appears in air
Lucca, Marle, Frog, Doppel climb Death Peak and enter gate to 12000BC
Lucca, Marle, Frog, Crono emerge from gate
Past has now been altered in 12000BC, timeline resets
========================================
>>12000BC<<
Lucca, Marle, Frog, Doppel appear but are not visible to others who are frozen
Doppel replaces Crono
Lucca, Marle, Frog, Crono enter gate to 2300AD
Doppel is destroyed by Lavos
>>End of Time<<
All playable characters are here
Lucca, Marle, Ayla have Time Egg and Doppel
These three take Epoch to 2300AD at Time X
Frog is TB'ed at Time X (everyone at EoT is like 'wtf!?')
{{In the Chronoverse, there is no predestiny -- different choices can always be made in the present when the past is altered in any way as seen in-game}}
>>2300AD<<
Epoch appears in air - Frog (protected by TTI) appears in the exact same spot he did before - Travel from the EoT will always take you to the same location on the planet. Frog and Ayla literally appear inside eachother.
Despite this, Lucca, Marle, Frog/Ayla combo (alive somehow) climb Death Peak and enter the gate to 12000BC.
Lucca, Marle, Frog are TB'ed -- Ayla is not.
Lucca, Marle, Frog, Ayla, Crono emerge from gate
The past has changed, timeline resets
=============================================================================
>>12000BC<<
The original Lucca, Marle, and Frog, Doppel appear - with Ayla now.
Whether or not Ayla's body is restored is up in the air.
Doppel replaces Crono
All 5 of them return to 2300AD - Lucca, Marle, Frog, Crono are TB'ed
^^ You have to feel bad for Ayla - not only was she fused with Frog for some time, but every time they enter a gate, her companions on the other side will be shocked and confused to see her because the party she is with keeps getting TB'ed. And with her cavewoman knowledge, she could never figure it out much less explain it =)
All I did was switch out a party member. Not the most significant or complicated change - yet it produces terrible results.
But it gets worse than freaky fusions:
Conservation in the Chronoverse works nicely because it counts everything in the ENTIRE timeline rather than just a specific point. So as long as things balance out in the end, Conservation is not considered violated. Time Bastard is also helpful here because it eliminates doubles in such a way that if
Person A's counterpart does not time travel at Time X like he should - he vanishes.
This works out so that you can trace a person's existence on a timeline back and forth with your finger without lifting your finger off of the page. There is no discontinuity. Yay....
So, you can repeat this process, eventually making all of the team vanish from the End of Time - fuse into eachother, become confused as to why their friends don't know how someone got there - despite having had a conversation 5 seconds before entering a gate, etc.
This is a possibility predicted by the Compendium's theories. Of course, with some luck, the same party members will always go to Death Peak and always perform every action at the exact same time, that way TTI/TB don't mess things up.
What if the party, in another runthrough, for whatever reason, needed an extra 2 seconds to set up the Doppel to replace Crono?
TB will destroy them before they have the chance - along with Crono. The Doppel will just be lying on the ground so that when time unfreezes in 12000BC everyone will see Crono missing and a doll just laying on the ground a few feet away.
TTI/TB work in that they help preserve events that need to exist to avoid a paradox while preserving Conservation.
They do, but they create some other effect - like timeline entropy or something.
TTI and TB protect events that have occurred, but random variables allow for other events to arise that will also be protected by TTI. This can continually reproduce itself until you have the ultimate result:
Micro continuity sacrificed for Macro continuity. To an outside observer (like the player), things won't even make sense anymore. Events on a live timeline will be completely disconnected in favor of events that existed on dead timelines.
It's not so bad though right? Actually it is devastating - With gates, things may not get too out of hand - but every instance of Epoch use has to be perfectly replicated or else fusions will occur as I mentioned earlier.
But, I do believe this entropy can be applied to every time travel event. So take the above and complicate it with small changes made for another, if not several time travel events that are not repeated. I think things will get out of hand really quickly.
Any thoughts? 8)
EDIT: took out the line "or characters will fall to their deaths" because it is incorrect.
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Very, very clever Eske. Now let's try to mold your new Dream/time travel theory into one that is just as accurate and useful but without problems like this.
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muahaha. It's true, I should come up with a replacement but I think it would be too time consuming (and arrogant) to come up with a counter to conventional Compendium theories - if it's even possible at all.
I will say that my example in my last post points out the most obvious problem with Compendium theories - the real reason why it is so disconnected from Chrono Trigger:
The Entity basically damns the Crono Team to die through fusions and hurt friendships with TB/TTI combos i.e.
Lucca: "Oh why are you here Magus?"
Magus: "I TOLD YOU FIVE TIMES I'VE BEEN TRAVELLING WITH YOU THE WHOLE TIME LUCCA, SHUT UP!!".
Also, it damns itself into repeating the same segment(s) of time over and over again, possibly in more and more absurd ways.
Hmph, I didn't glean that the Entity was both sadistic and foolish. I don't know about anyone else, but the Fiona Forest scene gave me the impression that the Entity was intelligent, aware of its heroes, and cared about their feelings (Lucca gate).
The Compendium model shows the Entity choosing an immortal life of insanity over a simple death. Really?
I'm thinking about creating a little think tank in a thread somewhere - that way new theories can be created by people bouncing ideas around. Here's hoping :)
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But our theories kick so much ass though...
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But our theories kick so much ass though...
True, but to me it seems like they were created through gameplay observation first, then, after the framework was laid down, plot points were taken into consideration. Unfortunately, some plot points were cast aside as mistakes in favor of other gameplay observations.
Yes TB and TTI work, technically - if you don't care about the Entities intentions or if you don't question a certain aspect of Crono's resurrection which I will question now:
If TTI is legit, why would they need a Crono clone? If its sole purpose is to identify who you want to save (which I know some people will say), why, then, would they have to replace Crono with the clone? TTI holds that they wouldn't need to. Crono's appearance in 2300AD will be preserved no matter what.
TTI/TB supporters have to either make baseless assumptions to explain this away or simply pull out the oversight card.
C'mon, really?
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Not oversight - gameplay quirk would be my guess. It's simply fun to collect what you need in order to save Crono.
Or one more possibility: It's mentioned that the Time Egg will not work unless you put in sufficient effort into saving your friend. Perhaps the seemingly pointless task of getting a Crono clone was part of this?
And in the case of the normal or "traditional" concept of time travel, TTI/TB is necessesary to prevent paradoxes. You can't write a time travel story without it or something very similar as I've said before.
Unless, that story is not about normal or "traditional" time travel. Your dream theory seems to hold promise in this.
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Not oversight - gameplay quirk would be my guess. It's simply fun to collect what you need in order to save Crono.
Or one more possibility: It's mentioned that the Time Egg will not work unless you put in sufficient effort into saving your friend. Perhaps the seemingly pointless task of getting a Crono clone was part of this?
And in the case of the normal or "traditional" concept of time travel, TTI/TB is necessesary to prevent paradoxes. You can't write a time travel story without it or something very similar as I've said before.
Unless, that story is not about normal or "traditional" time travel. Your dream theory seems to hold promise in this.
Yep, that is what I'm hoping for. I want something that stays true to the plot points in the game:
When Marle disappears, Lucca explains that it was due to Leene not being saved and her particularly evil quote "something must happen to the Queen in this era" (think about it and you will see why it is evil to the Compendium) is the game's rationalization for the whole incident.
When they replace Crono with the clone, the most obvious reasoning would be: If they don't see something that at least looked exactly like Crono get blasted by Lavos, they won't initiate the search.
It is only with the advent of TTI that this entire episode becomes distorted.
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So...any new progress Eske?
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maybe. I'm going to hold off it for now and just let it soak in the back of my mind. I want to go back to what we were doing before, I feel more progress can be made that way.
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OK then :D. I've been holding off too because I wanted to see what you came up with. So I think I'm going to make a Dead Sea thread in a few days trying to re-analyze it with our modified theories. There's a lot of potential in that I think. For example, our theory on the effects of TTI and TB after the dimensional split actually predicted the existence of the Dead Sea and the "reason" why there was only one version of Crono and co. that could save the world.
But what I am stumbling on is why the Dead Sea is frozen, and why the explanation for this as given in Chrono Cross suggests that it represents a potential future only and that Serge and crew didn't actually travel through time. I need to think about it some more.
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Here is a little something I did...forgive me if this was discussed or mentioned but there is jsut too much to read and ponder!
I have trouble understanding these theories when people start using the variable X...so I made a picture to go along with my post (as well as leaving out any X variable).
The pinkish red lines are Marle’s departure and arrival regarding time travel.
The green lines are in regards to Crono’s time travel.
The combined pink and green is both of them travelling in time.
T1
No time travel. No problems. Unaltered history (presumably)
T2
6.0 to 9.9 – no change from T1
9.9 to 10.0 - m goes to 6.0 on T3
T3
6.0 – m arrives, mistakenly assumed to be l, search for l is aborted
6.0 to 6.2 –time when l was originally rescued passes, specifically at the crossed out O2; this is what causes the eventual change at the blue line on the same T3
6.3 to 9.x – events occur that prevent m from being born, a temporal disturbance at the blue line occurs when m was supposed to be born.
9.7 to x.x – c’ never knows of m (not relevant), presumably does not time travel.
T4
6.0 to 6.2 – remains the same as T4 as this happened before any time altering events. Call it TTI if you want but I don’t think that is technically it.
6.2 to 6.3 – m disappears due to temporal disturbance [linked with unsuccessful rescue and m’s birth]. Causes the search for l to continue.
6.3 to 6.4 – l is rescued and m reappears causing another temporal disturbance that basically negates the first, as seen by the brown line
6.4 to 9.x – time continues “normally”, m in the past either dies off, is killed etc to prevent any further time anomalies.
[this is where we start in the game]
9.7 to 9.9 – m continues as she did in T2, travelling back to the past
10.0 – c does not forget about m as the two disturbances negate each other.
10.1 to 10.2 – c travels to 6.1 on T5
T5
As seen in game once c travels back to 6.1 (used 6.1 as he arrives later than m)
[attachment deleted by admin]
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Here's my question on the matter.
I may not be understanding TTI fully, but are there any ramifications for, say, Crono altering Marle's past?
What I mean to say is, as you see the story unfold, Marle doesn't "disappear" until Crono interacts with her. While TTI states that because a person has time-travelled they cannot alter their events, my question is whether the following could occur through TTI:
Marle travels to the past. Crono also travels to the past. Because Crono is in the past (and Lucca, judging by the fact she retains the memory of the events occuring), Crono now has a different viewpoint of the timeline. Crono watches as Marle disappears, and if you return with both Lucca and Crono in your party, Marle is still not there. However, everyone else in the castle still acts as if she is upstairs.
If it were truly a paradox, time would have altered so that everyone was looking for Leene again, since Marle no longer "existed" to call off the search. So, what if there is some weird mechanism by which Crono and Lucca, because they have TTI, remember the events Marle took part in, and therefore remember her being in the past. Something along the lines of Crono and Lucca, who have TTI themselves, see something different than those of 600 AD.
A good thought is whether or not if you were to bring the King or anyone else into the room whether they would see Marle or not. Even as a temporal anomaly, perhaps Marle could be seen by those without TTI, but TTI grants a sort of visual perception not normally had by people.
Hope I got that out right.
EDIT:
Why is Time Traveler's Immunity always active? What if it is gained, but only activates under certain conditions?
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Perhaps Marle Paradox is only a trick(and the dreamstone is the key item ) of the "Entity" in order to warn them the great disaster the planet is facing. Or else, is there a reason they should stay in 600 A.D.?
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I think we try to avoid the catch all of "The Entity did it". Granted, we all doubt they were trying to stick to a set of rules (wouldn't it be better to say "the Kato did it"?). So, we are trying to find an explanation for something that didn't truly have one.
Perhaps it's all just a matter of viewpoint. We play as Crono throughout the game, so we see things as Crono sees them. Perhaps, depending on the viewpoint, Crono would remember Marle's actions but not see her, which would also explain why everyone in the castle still believes she is up in the Queen's bedroom, even though we know she's not.
Crono might be the only one who couldn't see her in this theory (Lucca probably wouldn't as well, but since in normal gameplay you don't take Lucca up to the Queen's bedroom until after Leene is saved). Everyone else still believes Leene is up in the Queen's room otherwise they'd go looking for her...again, and time would be set back on course, meaning she'd be upstairs...wait, this is another start to a Grandfather Paradox.
Which of course, can't happen according to our thoughts on the matter.
So, the question is what if TTI gives you some extra temporal senses? Because Crono and Lucca time traveled, they saw Marle disappear, but because of the view point, everyone else just sees her still there. Hmm.
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I hold on to my previous assessment that TTI is incorrect. The Marle paradox and the use of the clone only make sense when TTI is applied. If a theory causes problems with major plot points in the game, wouldn't it be fair to question it? So far TTI has only been used to explain transient or subtle questions in regard to the effects of time travel. Why doesn't this guy mention knowing them, why don't their memories change, and so on.
It's quite obvious from Marle's erasure from history and having to use the doll to swap Crono out of his own death that time travellers are not immune to their own actions. They are, in fact, very vulnerable to them.
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Wait a minute! If you say that Marle's erasure from history is due to their being no such thing as TTI, then we have a big problem on our hands. If TTI does not exist, in which case Marle's disappearance functions correctly, then Crono and Lucca do not come back in time because they would never meet her, and then we have the Grandfather Paradox continually running in circles. If TTI does not exist, then Marle's actions in the past will not take place originally, then they will, then they won't, etc. It's a neverending loop at that point. The entire game and a bunch of mini-areas are all GPs. Marle's is one, stopping Lavos is another. These are the two main TTIs in my opinion. I still hold regard that it's a matter of probabilities.
I'm working on researching to come up with a full on explanation that adds to TTI and TB but accounts for Marle's paradox at the same time. I have mentioned it a few times, the Theory of Probabilities. I know people don't like taking certain blocks of text literally, but let's look at this quote by Belthasar on Serge's predicament:
Serge... This world is not
the world you grew up in.
10 years ago, something
happened that put your very
soul teetering on the
balancing scales of fate...
with a fifty-fifty chance
of life or death!
This is when your future
was split in twain.
I stated quite a while ago the following:
Crono's appearance at Death Peak is not assured, as it requires, according to Gaspar, a certain amount of effort to be put into retrieving Crono for him to actually be retrieved. If it were an assured event, then all the rest of the group would have to do is just sit there and wait for him to show up. But this goes back to the Free Will theory, that inaction produces no action, and that until the group actually performs an action, the resulting chain of events does not yet occur. Until Marle and whoever the player picks to join her travel into the pocket dimension during that frozen second, and until they decide and will themselves to exchange Crono and the clone, Crono is not assured to appear at Death Peak.
Perhaps this lends credence to not necessarily a single event being the point of timeline alteration, but rather a checklist. Like, in order for Crono to appear once again, the following must occur: 1) The Time Egg is used at Death Peak; 2) A clone of Crono must be present; 3) The clone must be shifted into Crono's position and Crono be removed from where he was at; and 4) Crono must be removed from the pocket dimension. So it's a chain of events, and if all four of those do not take place, then the theoretical #5) Crono appears at Death Peak, cannot occur.
Quote
Marle Paradox
Leene is supposed to be saved at Time X, this is what the Entity recalls. Leene is, however, not saved at Time X - ultimately forcing her doom. We see, in game, that Yakra is moments away from killing Queen Leene in the Cathedral when we find them. It was, perhaps, not possible for Frog to save the Queen alone in time. Though Crono and Lucca intervene to make saving the Queen possible, this is only after the ultimate result has been witnessed: Marle ceases to exist.
When the three of them save Queen Leene, they create a new Time X within the Dreamline where Marle's family line is restored, therefore Marle's previous actions are recalled by the Entity, placing her exactly where she was first forgotten.
While I would initially reference my theory that a 50%-50% of something happening (50% of the time Leene is saved, 50% of the time she is killed, in this example) allows a timeline to stay in a sort of Limbo (which if you read my latest post on my discussion on whether the universe was split or duplicated in Chrono Cross, I state the theory could explain both Belthasar's statement that the 50-50 probability of Serge's life or death and the reasoning for the universe splitting and Another World not being shifted to the DBT due to the uncertainty), perhaps a modified version could be applied here. Notice how I stated that 50% of the time Leene is saved/killed, not Marle. Say whichever has the higher percentage of probability is what occurs. The moment one of the two options breaks 50%, it becomes the event in the current timeline.
Since Lucca arrived pretty much right after Marle "disappeared", we can safely assume that Lucca had gained TTI by this time. So, we have Crono and Lucca both with TTI. Let's say they decide to just sit around. Well, then Frog is left to go after Yakra by himself. Continuing on, let's assume that Frog makes his way through the cathedral until he reaches Yakra's room. Any idea of who is going to win in a Frog vs. Yakra match? Probably Yakra. Okay, so probability here is that while Frog's intervention delayed the Queen's death, it didn't prevent it. Then we can add in Crono and Lucca, and boom, the chances rise. For an example (and don't quote me on these being actual percentages, since we don't know), here's some example values to illustrate.
Remember, the Percentage theory (gotta think of a better name for it) states that until a choice rises about 50%, the timeline is in Limbo.
1. Timeline at start of game: Leene is kidnapped, but soldiers find her and defeat Yakra. Leene's survival rate: 100%. Leene survives and Marle exists.
2. Timeline after Marle time-travels: Leene is kidnapped. Marle has not yet chosen to interact with the citizens of the Kingdom of Guardia in 600, so the soldiers still find Leene and defeat Yakra. Leene's survival rate: 100%. Leene survives and Marle exists.
3. Timeline after Marle time-travels and Crono time-travels: Leene is kidnapped. Marle may not have chosen to interact with the citizens of the Kingdom of Guardia yet (this would allow for Lucca to travel back still), so the soldiers still find Leene and defeat Yakra. Leene's survival rate: 100%. Leene survives and Marle exists.
4. Timeline after all three have time traveled: Leene is kidnapped. While the soldiers are out looking for Marle in different groups, one small contingent finds Marle while the rest are looking in the Cathedral for Leene. When word is heard that "Leene" (Marle) is found, the search is called off moments before finding Yakra and the real queen. Crono is just now approaching the castle, and Lucca has appeared in the past, thereby giving her the TTI she needs to still be there.
At this point, we get to a slight discussion of how the Probability Theory (there, better name) takes effect. We have three possible outcomes at this point: a) Yakra kills the Queen; b) Yakra fights Frog and kills the Queen; c) Yakra fights Frog, Crono, and Lucca, and doesn't kill the Queen. At this point, until any action is made, there is a 66% chance (since until an action is made all probable outcomes have the same probability) that the Queen will die. So, the Queen dies since that probability is a 2 in 3 chance she'll die. However, becomes the timeline doesn't know which of the two timelines where she dies to utilize (where Yakra kills the Queen and then the one where Yakra fights Frog and then kills the Queen), the timeline is still in Limbo, which unfortunately has the side effect of removing Marle from the "timeline" (partially because she would no longer exist, but also because the timeline is in such a state of limbo that she's not shunted to the DBT).
5. The final timeline: Leene is kidnapped. While the soldiers are out looking for Marle in different groups, one small contingent finds Marle while the rest are looking in the Cathedral for Leene. When word is heard that "Leene" (Marle) is found, the search is called off moments before finding Yakra and the real queen. Crono watches as Marle is shunted into a state of Timeline Limbo due to the Probability Theory, and he and Lucca go off and help Frog defeat Yakra. Upon defeating Yakra, he can no longer kill Leene, and the one remaining timeline, where Leene is saved, takes precedence and the timeline realigns itself with the events of that outcome (which now has a 100% chance of happening). Leene's survival is now at 100% once more, and Leene is alive and Marle is returned from her Timeline Limbo state, as the probability she exists in this timeline is 100% again.
The Theory of Probabilities would function along the lines of timelines altering based on a "majority wins" rule with regards to probabilities. In my discussion above, Marle's disappearance occurs prior to Leene's death. This is the true plot hole, not Marle's disappearance. Since inaction causes no action, and just because it's a certainty that Leene is going to be killed, there is no reason for Marle to disappear when she did. If Leene were to be killed, at that point we'd have the paradoxical problem we continually refer to as the MP. And that point only.
Serge had a 50-50 chance of death or survival. The time line split due to it, even Belthasar makes this statement. However, Kid has the pendant with her, so that makes the time line split in conjunction with the 50-50 survival rate. I mention that, because in CT, if you apply the percentages rule to that Keystone, and apply it to the Marle Paradox, we are left wondering why the timeline doesn't split. I know you are probably saying "but the pendant was there". Not entirely. If we say that Kid's actions with resulted in the 50-50 chance of Serge's survival while she was wearing the pendant, then Marle's actions without wearing the pendant account for the difference. However, the pendant was present (in Crono's inventory) when Marle was about to be shunted, so perhaps it acted as a counter measure. However, because it wasn't charged (Kid's pendant is barely what, 16 years after the events at the Ocean Palace while Marle's is 13,000 years old), it was only able to keep the timelines in a state of overlap for the moment, instead of splitting them apart (which I would deem is more stable).
And as far as using a clone to swap out Crono doesn't mean anything bad on TTI. How else are you suggesting Crono be maneuvered out? Conservation of Energy is the key here. By placing the Crono clone in for Crono, we have a slightly more balance CoE, the whole thing stating that energy can be neither created nor destroyed. We are replacing one form of energy (Crono) with another (Crono clone). There's no TTI involved.
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I still hold regard that it's a matter of probabilities.
Exactly. Less immunity, and more probability. I explained my view on this in a previous thread. (http://www.chronocompendium.com/Forums/index.php/topic,6837.0.html)
Basically until a time change reaches the tipping point for them, nothing changes immediately for the time traveller. With Marle, Crono being ready to take her home while her ancestor was still lost was the tipping point. For Crono, they didn't want to risk the change. Who's to say alternate timelines haven't fallen to disaster due to GP? Fact is we just played the game covering a timeline that didn't.
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Well, it's not so much a tipping point, since the time chance won't actually occur until the action of killing Leene takes place. While I understand how TTI can cause certain problematic anamolies, perhaps once I fully flesh out the theory (and get a bit better at description) of Probabilities, it might end up challenging TTI.
Not trying to, if it happens, it happens.
Of course, everything we discuss here is a game mechanic. If time travel, a game mechanic, did not exist, we wouldn't be discussing it. I bet you alternate timelines have fallen to disaster due to GP. Maybe we could make it go way out there and say Lavos' presence has the side effect of altering time mechanics of a planet.
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Much simpler explanation for what happened to Marle: The Guardians searching for Leene had only medieval-level technology, which means no instantaneous communications except for possibly heliograph or smoke signals, both of which require line-of-sight. This means that the search for Leene could not be called off on a moment's notice.
Now, let's say that until *Lucca* showed up in the year 600AD, whoever was originally supposed to find Leene didn't know that the search had been called off and would still have found her if nothing else had happened. Then, at some point between emerging in Truce Canyon and arriving at Guardia Castle, Lucca did something which drew that searcher's attention to the end of the search (under the right circumstances, firing her gun straight up in the air might do it). As a result, the searcher gave up, Leene wasn't found, and Marle disappeared. If I'm not mistaken, generally accepted theories would then take care of the rest, with no need for intervention from the Entity.
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Disregarding anything anyone might have said prior to this, my personal opinion is that the reason this happened goes along on the same lines that say "the further back in time you change something, the less effect it has on the future", kindof like a reverse butterfly effect.
However, my theory suggests that time always trys to correct itself back to its original course. Weather this is done by laws of time or it is actually the entity at work doing this is subjective.
In a more simple way, lets say that a straight metal wire represents the timeline. X represents the length back in time that a time-traveler changes something. F, force, is the "magnitude" of the effect that the time traveler makes.
So, thusly, if said force F is applied over X distance, then depending on how big F is and how long X is, F/X should represent the amount of change placed over each individual unit X, averaged out. Also, taking into effect Time Error (T), F/(X-T), X being the distance traveled back in time, would thusly represent the amount of change over the Exact time, as it calculates between when the event of change actually occurred and the exact moment the time travelers traveled from.
Example: Travel back in time 80 years and then in 4 years do something that effects the future F much.
F/(80-4) would effectively represent the change based upon the time from which he came, and the time he actually changed something. Thusly, 76 years, rather than 80.
Because Chrono and crew went back in time 65 million (billion?) years, and took the dreamstone from Ayla (minor change),
the amount of force placed over each single year would be so miniscule that it is incalculable.
HOWEVER: The fact of the matter is that time, theoretically, is being represented by a metal wire. The above example would barely bend the wire, if anything, but nonetheless, revert back to its original course.
Time will only be allowed to bend between 2 points in time: when the timeline was changed and the exact time the time travelers left from.
That is the first part of my theory. ON THE CONTRAST if a BIG change occured over a small amount of Exact time, time would not only bend but it is quite likely it would break, and branch out to elsewhere.
A big change being, say, the death of Queen Leene, and the amount of exact time being 400-T, T being time error, but almost 0. A change like this would likely break the current timeline, and sending what was the future to be DBT'd.
The magnitude of the event was not amazingly catastrophic, being that it merely destroyed Marle and not the Chrono nor Lucca, thusly in the temporary future between the time that Marle disappears and the QUeen is saved, Chrono and Lucca are TB'd to 600AD.
Just for fun, I'm going to take into play the following quote and play with it.
Much simpler explanation for what happened to Marle: The Guardians searching for Leene had only medieval-level technology, which means no instantaneous communications except for possibly heliograph or smoke signals, both of which require line-of-sight. This means that the search for Leene could not be called off on a moment's notice.
This would mean there is ANOTHER time factor to take into play.
Say, a time capsule was made in 10000BC to be dug up in 10000AD.
10000AD comes around, after the capsule is opened some idiot from nearby hops in a time machine to 10000BC and sneaks a bomb onto the time capsule with the trigger being when the capsule is opened. 4tehlulz, the bomb is a nuclear one, the size of which can wipe out a small country.
Despite that the person put the bomb on in 10000BC (causal time), the effect is not felt until 10000AD (time of effect).
the equasion for this would be changed from F/(X-T-Ce), Ce being the time between cause and effect. This case, whatever future the people used to have would be DBT'd, as the Force would be so great and the Exact time (now X-T-Ce) would be so small that it would "break" time. Thusly, the idiot that put the bomb would encounter the Marle Effect, and would cease to exist.
The theory basically stated and summed up:
Time is like a metal wire:
1: Time, when changed, will try as hard as possible to bend back to where it originally was, with bending room allowed between when the effect of change is felt and when the time travelers left from.
2: When the value (F/(X-T-Ce)) is so great, time will eventually "break" at the point in time that the Effect is first felt.
3: Under the circumstances, time bending back to where it was shouldnt cause any sort of effect, time bastard or otherwise.
4: However, when time breaks, a time bastard effect can possibly occur, and there is a chance that some of the travelers, if any, can experience the "Marle Effect".
Thusly, the Marle effect is the rarest effect that time travel can cause. It will only happen if time is broken, and only if this break in time will affect the time traveler.
Other examples of time breaking? The Black Omen, the Sun Stone.
The Sun Stone situation is a case that leads me to believe that time breaking can be relative to a specific area or universal, as well as that it is also related to the natural amounts of change that occur in that area on a normal basis.
The sun stone is definitley a relative break in time because prior to the party's interference, the sun stone did not exist in the Sun shrine (or whatever that place was that you leave the stone for 65 billion years), however the sun stone did not seem to affect much else in the world.
If, say, the party put the sun stone where the future leene square was to be, the natural amount of change that occurs there is massive, because of all the human activity and everything, whereas in the sun shrine or whatever, nothing occurs for 65 billion years or so. So if the party left it in the future square, it is likely that time would merely bend for that section, and the sun stone be taken, stolen, destroyed or otherwise in a relatively short time.
This makes me change (F/(X-T-Ce)) to (F/(X-T-Ce))-C, with C being the normal amount of change over a unit of time.
After more thought, I think I shall expand on my definition of "Bend" vs "Break".
As a more appropriate definition, a "Bend" is a change in time which time was able to naturally correct itself between the moment of effect and the time in which the time travelers, who changed time, left from.
A "Break" would then be a change in time which was so massive that time was unable to naturally correct itself before the moment in which the time travelers, who changed time, left from.
And, as a 3rd definition, a "Relative Break" would be a "Break" that only affected a specific area, set of areas, objects, or persons.
Then, to resummarize my THeory with the newly added information,
1: Time, when changed, will always seek to correct itself between the point in time which affected time and the moment from which the time travelers that caused the change left from.
2: If F is the force of the change, X is the time that the travelers went backwards in time, T is the Time Error between when they caused the change, Ce is the Cause Effect time between the cause and when the effect was felt, and C is the amount of natural change per unit of time, then the Formula ((F/(X-T-Ce))-C) is the amount of stress put on each unit of time in the timeline between the time the effect is felt/occurs and the time the time travelers left.
3: When the value ((F/(X-T-Ce))-C) is so great, time will eventually "break" at the point in time that the Effect is first felt.
4: When time bends, then from the point in time the travelers leave, the future is the same.
5: When time breaks, that is when the Time Bastard effect and the Marle effect occur.
Now, for my take on the marle effect:
The marle effect, as most people see, is where a person disappears after a time break. This is true, however what most people probably do not see is the full scope of the marle effect.
It seems best explained in an example:
Time Traveler A goes back in time and causes a time break, relative or otherwise, which causes time traveler A, in the new present, not to go back in time. Time Bastard, in the future will look for any entity that it knows to be the time traveler A so it can pull it back in time. We know this already.
Lets say that time traveler A goes and kills his great grandfather in the past, and then disappear.
Time bastard will look for time traveler A.
However, when Time Bastard does not find said entity, Time Bastard will not pull anything, whilst Time Traveler A will still end up in the past, pulled, supposedly, "from no where". Time Traveler A will then go on and exist until the point in which Time Traveler A kills his Great Grandfather, and thusly disappears again.
Time Traveler A seems to exist merely as a ghost. Yes, lets call a person who experiences the Marle Effect a "Ghost". It's quite fitting. Coming from no where and returning no where. However, since the conservation of matter and energy take place in this world, matter cannot be destroyed or created. So how is this explained?
Think about Time Bastard for a moment: The time traveler is gated at the exact point in which he/she originally traveled, and appears at the time he/she traveled to, with memory being that of the original traveler and not that of the TB'd traveler.
So my theory on the Marle effect takes this a step further. There are 2 possible/feasible ways that the Marle Effect can occur in my theory:
1: Time Bastard, when it cannot find the entity, will go to the exact moment in which the effect that caused a Time Break causing the nonexistance of the time traveler, and TB the time traveler from then back to the moment he/she arrived in the past. Rather than by use of a gate, however, the time traveler is painfully ripped apart (possibly by conversion into Tachyons?) and recreated at the point in which he/she originally arrived in the past.
So, to use Marle as an example, rather than "dissentigrating into nothing" she is "Ripped" back in time to the point in which she arrived, thus turning Marle into a "loop" so to speak. Ripped back in time to the point she arrived at just to return to being ripped back.
This is a technicality of the conservation of matter and energy. In all truths, she is not being created when she arrives, nor is she being destroyed. she is coming from somewhere and going somewhere each time she is ripped.
This is the first, and in my opinion, more likely story behind the Marle Effect.
The second way the Marle Effect could be occuring is as such:
2: Time Bastard, rather than not doing anything, will revert to stealing the atoms that the original time traveler was comprised of at the exact moment the time traveler left from. The "ghost" is then created with these atoms being repieced into the original traveler. The traveler will go along with what happened and then will be "ripped apart" at the moment that the effect of what he/she caused is reached. Then, Time Bastard will return the atoms to the exact moment and place they originally came from, disregarding the time error.
So once again, conservation of matter and energy is not breached.
There are 2 ways for a "Ghost" of a person to return from the circle of the "Marle Effect". Either a time traveler that came back with the ghost in the original travel back in time, or a time traveler from the future created by the ghost breaking time, must either:
A: Try and undo the effects that the ghost caused (aka: Chrono and Lucca saving the Queen after Marle disappeard).
or
B: Go back in time to stop the cause from occuring.
Let us review what I have gone over:
1: Time will try to correct itself back to its original course
2: ((F/(X-T-Ce))-C) is the equasion to see how much impact an event will have, weather it bends or breaks time.
3: Breaking time can be relative to a certain area or universal.
4: Only when time is broken in one way or another can Time Bastard or the Marle Effect occur.
5: Marle Effect will only occur when time is broken in such a way that the entity who broke time ceases to exist in the future in which said entity originally came from.
6: Marle Effect can possibly be a loop of matter being taken from the point in time which the effect occurs back to when the entity originally traveled back in time to; or it could be the stealing of matter from the point in time which the entity originally traveled back from to create the temporary ghost of the entity, and returned to the exact point and place in time from which it was stolen when the ghost reaches the point of effect.
7: A ghost in the Marle Effect cannot save itself, and can only be saved by a fellow time traveler.
So... I had fun writing this. I started some point in time before 12:00 am and right now it is 1:36. so it has taken me between an hour and a half to 2 hours to write this. hope i got somewhere with it.
Anyone understand what im saying? =D
EDIT: This post prior to this edit was 2352 words long, 10556 characters long and 12878 characters long if you include spaces. Not bad eh? *sigh*
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as far as the marle paradox, it was likely an oversight by developers.
but to weave it into the story, id argue that the entity wanted to preserve the guardia line for whatever reason, and caused marle to disappear to lead chrono to save queen leene, who believed that it was a grandfather paradox.
to keep it consistent with the rest of CT, what i wouldve done is had the present greatly altered (perhaps guardia would be in ruins) if chrono tried to return without saving the queen.. and then theyd realize that they have to save the guardia line to get the present back to normal.
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I'm considering the dimensional TTI thing, but I don't buy this. We know that Yuji Horii made that scenario, and we also know that Yuji Horii likes causal loops and the grandfather paradox. This means that it's a total developer oversight, because Kato's the one in charge, and Kato wrote the other parts of the series that supported TTI and TB. The theory also boils down to some vague version of "Marle is a special case because, uh, um...the grandfather paradox made her get reverse Time Bastarded." That's far more complex and troubling than the Entity solution.
But the Marle Paradox is still in the Plot Inconsistencies page, because we still recognize that the Entity solution doesn't work -- and that's because it's a developer oversight thanks to Yuji Horii's ideas about time fiction.
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My personal point of view about Marle's paradox is this :
The TTI is not absolute !
When an entity goes back through time in the past, he/she/it creates a new timeline in which there is inevitably a Time Bastard of himself/herself/itself in the future. This Time Bastard disappears when his/her/its age reaches the age the original version had when this one appeared in the past, in order to respect the convervation of energy in the universe.
The fact is that a same entity can't exist in two different points of the timeline at the same age !
BUT, at the same time, each age of this entity has to be reprensent at least once during the entire timeline ! This can be interpreted as another consequence of the conservation of energy.
This assumes the existence of a link between the original and the Time Bastard, as the two are here considered as a same entity.
Once could object to this that, if Marle creates a timeline in which her time bastard will never be born, it will be all the matter that composed her which will disappear in the future. Howerver, we can say that it's easier for the universe to "delete" the original in the past rather than to delete in the future all the scattered atoms of "Marle". This is for me a similarity with the principle of attraction forces. When I fall, even if the force I exerce on the Earth is identical to the one the Earth exerces on me, I'm easier to move, so it's me who moves toward the Earth and not the Earth that moves toward me.
I think things can work like this...
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I believe this conclusion was reached and discussed before. Don't remember the outcome though.
The TTI is not absolute !
Actually, Marle would still be TTI-protected. Remember that TTI only determines that the time traveler would arrive to the destination, meaning that once they are in it, anything goes. It would be like a case of a TB time traveling. Notice that in order to disappear, Marle would have to appear in the time line for it to happen, which TTI can provide.
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Query: Why does Marle reappear later?
Let us say that Marle disappeared on May 27th 600AD, at 11:53:35 am, due to changes to the timeline. When those changes were corrected for, why didn't she reappear at May 27th 600AD, at 11:53:35 am? Why did she instead reappear on May 30th 600AD, at 02:24:12 pm?
Let us imagine a different scenario: Crono & Co sets the Moon Stone in the Sun Keep in 65,000,000 BC. They discover that it is missing, and track it down to 1000 AD. They get it back from the Mayor of Porre. However, they then go back in time and kill the person who took it before they had actually done the deed. In the newly created timeline, the sunstone, then, should have never disappeared from the Sun Keep in the first place. It would be nonsensical for, in the new timeline, the moonstone to disappear from the Sun keep and reappear several days later.
So why did that nonsensicalness essentially happen with Marle?
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Let us say that Marle disappeared on May 27th 600AD, at 11:53:35 am, due to changes to the time line. When those changes were corrected for, why didn't she reappear at May 27th 600AD, at 11:53:35 am? Why did she instead reappear on May 30th 600AD, at 02:24:12 pm?
Wouldn't that be impossible? She can't leave and appear at the exact same time. And anyway, it would mean a time travel to the past to fix the problem. But then, with the problem corrected, she wouldn't disappear anyway, so she can't 'reappear' in a later time.
Since, the 600 AD scenario involved solving the problem way after her disappearance, meaning how could she reappear the moment she was gone?
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Exactly! If Crono and Lucca fixed the problem tha caused Marle to disappear, she shouldn't really have disappeared at all.
Something happened in 600 AD creating a new timeline in which Marle did not exist in 1000AD (and subsequently, in 600 AD after she traveled there). If this something was Leene being killed before having children (grandfather paradox), then Crono traveling to 600 AD and preventing her from being so killed should have utterly undone that by creating a new timeline in which Marle DID exist in 1000 AD (and subsequently never disappeared in 600 AD, since she was existing in the first place).
That Marle reappears (rather than having never disappeared) implies that Crono didn't undo the original problem.
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Well, the main problem isn't wether a new timeline is created or not, but Marle disappears before their eyes.
If time travel event created a new timeline, isn't it a different timeline other than the one Crono is currently in?
Or, if every decision creates a new timeline (like Miguel said), shouldn't such thing always happens to time travelers?
Time travel = dimension travel, somehow?
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Ah, if restoring Marle creates a timeline other than the one Crono is currently in, then shouldn't Marle have never "disappeared" from Crono's perspective, since that would have happened in a timeline other than the one Crono was in as well? That she disappeared from Crono's perspective indicates that the changes to the timeline affect the timeline on is in. The fact that Marle disappears at all indicates that time travel does not equal dimensional travel; if it did, than Marle should have caused a different Marle to disappear, not herself.
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Well, Belthasar knew that the Chrono Trigger would be used on Death Peak, before the team decides to interupt Magus. So, he knew Lucca at least made the Gate Key. Time would have continued on from 600, even if Marle and the Queen had vanished from history. The question is, would have Leene's Bell still be made, or would the making of Leene's Bell dramatically effect Lucca's existence? If the Gate Key gave Lucca some kind of immunity, then Leene's Bell must have been made, which means Queen Leene must be the only Queen in that era. By Lucca's presence with the Gate Key, Marle then could have been forced to disappear. Don't mind me, I'm just blabbering nonsense.
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I think Lucca arrived before the Queen vanished. She just took some time to get to the castle.
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What you say about the gate key, Desrever2, is something I’ve been considering for a long time now. It’s enough to make me come out of lurkdom.
Who’s to say that the gate key isn’t the thing giving immunity to our characters?
What happens to Marle is not an anomaly. It’s a glimpse into a plot point that will be important later in the series in the form of the Darkness Beyond Time. This means time travelers in themselves don’t necessarily have immunity to the effects of the changing timestream. The gate key is an item our characters are always carrying with them that clearly has an effect on time travel. What’s the one thing that can detect and open gates? The gate key. So why shouldn’t it also be capable of other things, such as protecting the existence of the time travelers’ carrying it? It wouldn’t be the only time we’ve seen an item with time-protective capabilities: Kid’s pendant is capable of rewinding her personal timeline to an earlier point to keep her from dying.
The only time in the game that the grandfather paradox occurs is during the first time trip through time. Marle has no gate key and disappears before Lucca arrives on the scene to get within proximity to her with the gate key. It’s only after the missing queen is returned and the timeline straightened out that Marle returns – and only when Crono and Lucca get close to the spot where she disappeared. Seeing as they were carrying the gate key at the time, circumstances could lead us to conclude that the gate key was what drew her back once the timeline was restored, and without it she would have remained in the DBT due to the change of when Leene was rescued.
As for Ayla, the gate key could easily be what allows Ayla to travel with the group and place herself in danger without negating the existence of Marle.
The gate key could really explain a lot. When Magus returned to 12,000 BC, he had to stay as close to the original timeline as possible or else he would affect his own existence and be unable to save anyone. He wasn’t prepared to time travel when he was sucked into the black gate so he had no gate key equivalent of his own. He had to bide his time and wait until the opportune moment to strike – when Lavos emerged.
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What you say about the gate key, Desrever2, is something I’ve been considering for a long time now. It’s enough to make me come out of lurkdom.
Who’s to say that the gate key isn’t the thing giving immunity to our characters?
Because Chrono doesn't use it when he travels to 600 AD but isn't affected when Marle disappears (that is, he remembers she is supposed to be there). Thus, he seems to be immune to changes in the timeline before coming in contact with the key. Orare you saying that meeting up with Lucca shortly afterwards retroactively protects him from the same time change that affected Marle?
Additionally, your stance requires that the Epoch grant the same immunity even though it and the Gate Key do not share the same tech.
However that said, I would agree that Time Travelers are not immune from changes to the Time Line, nor are particular itterations of them immune.
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We see in-game that characters don’t forget their original pasts. For instance, Magus seems to remember a past in Zeal where the heroes of the game weren’t on the scene as we see in his flashback on the North Cape. Why should Crono be any different? Lucca also seems to remember a past where her mother was paralyzed by that machine, or at least that’s what I inferred.
If not, the pendant could have protected Crono from forgetting. We see in Chrono Cross that Kid’s pendant is capable of rewinding time to an earlier point to keep her from dying. There may have been residual energy in Marle’s pendant from the Mammon Machine – not enough to open doors or chests with crests on them, nor enough to rewind time, but enough to protect its wearer from endangering their own timeline or forgetting certain things.
The Epoch might not protect our characters the same way the gate key could. Belthasar is so far from the past that anything he does in 2400 AD or 1000 AD won’t affect him. As a result he can use the Epoch or the Chrono Trigger willy-nilly with nary a consequence to his personal timeline. By the time Crono and company get the Epoch, they’re still carrying the gate key with them. The Epoch doesn't need to grant the same immunity.
Thinking on it, Belthasar’s original plan may have been to return back to his home time via the Epoch, get the Chrono Trigger from Gaspar, return to 2400 AD, and use it on Death Peak to rescue Schala. Belthasar’s machinations would have to be very precise to keep the timeline intact and be able to rescue Schala. Unfortunately, that version of him died before he could complete his objective. The new version had to deal with a significantly altered timeline thanks to the intervention of Crono and company, and had to reformulate his plan. Perhaps the new Belthasar did go to 12,000 BC first when he completed the neo-Epoch, but found that the Chrono Trigger wasn't completed yet and couldn't be used, and that's where the ridiculously complex plan of Chrono Cross came from.
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See, that's the rub. Why should a change to a timeline make someone disappear but not make people forget? If Marle lacks TTI because she didn't travel with the Key, then Crono would also lack TTI because he didn't travel with the key, so if Marle disappears, Crono should forget. If Crono remembers, Marle shouldn't disappear. The problem is that Marle disappears and Crono remembers, an outcome that should be impossible as people generally understand the nature of time travel.
And you pointed out a problem yourself; Magus, Melchior, and Belthasar all traveled without a Gate Key or the Pendant yet their knowledge of 12,000 BCE is unaffected by changes to the timeline, indicating that whatever grants immunity (if immunity is granted) ain't the Gate Key or Pendant.
Regarding Belthasar, generally it seems like he wasn't aware of Schala's fate at that point.
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Why do memory and existence have to be tied together? Perhaps TTI exists for all time travelers, but in a way that’s different than what is usually assumed -- it exists only for their memories. Their physical existence can be erased without affecting the memories of time travelers in the era in which they disappear or an earlier era.
Actually, the Telepod could have been what protected Crono and Lucca’s memories in 1000 AD before they time traveled. Lucca did invent the Gate Key out of its components. They may have been close enough to it to remember Marle in an era where she no longer existed. Then Crono went to 600 AD where TTI took effect on his memories once he was out of range of the Telepod by about 400 years.
Crono remembers and the people indigenous to the Middle Ages clearly remember Marle, even after she ceases to exist. Perhaps the memories stay in order to keep a grandfather paradox from forming. It may be a defense mechanism for the DBT to keep the cycle of the same two possible futures from repeating ad infinitum.
TTI may have been protecting Magus’ original memories since he was in the same era in which the change occurred. If not, then his exposure to the Gate Key when the crucial change in timeline was happening may have been what protected his memories. Neither Melchior nor Belthasar talk about those specific events in their new eras post-change, so we don’t know which version they remember. I’m inclined to believe they remember the altered version.