Chrono Compendium
Enhasa Halls - Chrono Series Analysis => Lavos, the Planet, and other Entities => Topic started by: Drumguy074 on December 11, 2003, 03:36:09 am
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I think that the pocket dimension theory is plausible with just a couple of tweaks. I think that Lavos was not able to create the pocket dimension until after he emerges in 1999 AD. This would explain why he doesn't just destroy the planet shortly after he arrives in 65,000,000 BC. (Plus, wouldn't he miss out on the dna of quite a few creatures?) When Lavos is summoned in 12,000 BC, it is not the true Lavos of that time period, but rather the Lavos from the pocket dimension. I think that this is true no matter how you fight Lavos. (This is assuming that Lavos creates the pocket dimension almost immediately after emerging in 1999 AD.)
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The reason I don't believe in the Pocket Dimension theory is that if Chrono and co. killed Lavos in all times, he would be unable to summon back the Chronopolis which means that either this is a plot hole or more likely the battle has to have happened sometime after 7600 BC and before 1999AD
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What I was saying is that Lavos doesn't create the pocket dimension until 1999. This may sound odd, but it would mean that Lavos would exist outside of time, while still existing inside the normal timestream in some form.
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Okay, tell me if there is anything that contradicts this, but this is my theory. I seem to remember from somewhere in CC, though I might be mistaken, that the Tesseract is where lost strands of time go. Think of the original, "evil", timeline and the changed, "good", timeline from CT (ie. Lavos alive vs. Lavos killed) as two strands unravelling from the same string. Now say that if time is changed drastically enough it doesn't just seperate into two strands, the other strand is actually cut and becomes a lost strand floating in temporal "space", ie. the Tesseract. This would mean that while, in the new timeline, Lavos as a being bound to time is indeed dead (regardless of what time he was killed in, in the year 1999+ he will be dead), he is not dead in the Tesseract. Now Lavos is a mighty creature. Moreover, there is Schala. In the confusion of space/time at the ocean palace, she literally fell out of history, into the Tesseract. So, both she and Lavos are in that realm of chaos. And by some magical means their souls merge. Whether or not Lavos had senience before is a matter of debate, but by the Time Devourer's malicious control of time, it does have intelligence, perhaps through Schala. All this, I believe, is in accordance with what the game says. Lavos is destroyed in CT, and ceases to exist. He is certainly in the Tesseract, and so is Schala. With their combined magic, they may have the power to reunify their lost time strand to the true one, perhaps altering it to their own ends. But however this is accomplished, it is certain that the Time Devourer has, through Schala, the power to reach into the real world. I could go on for a long time about this, but I don't think I'd say anything new. Basically I say that the time devourer is a soul fusion between Schala and the future that Crono destroyed, hence when the ghosts say that the future that was destroyed is about to have its revenge.
I think that this is a very simple theory that does not contradict either game in any way that I can think of, though I may be wrong. Has anyone else said this yet? Probably, but I only skimmed through the other replies.
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Recently there have been further discussion of the pocket dimension theory in the Compendium's nightly AIM chat sessions. Given this, and that the diagram was misplaced, here is a recap of the theory with some new developments.
Lavos Pocket Dimension Theory
http://www.chronocompendium.com/images/Articles/lavosdimension1.gif
Lavos displays some strange behavior. If the travelers defeat the shell and warp into the past, the shell is still defeated. A strange blue aura surrounds Lavos during the Ocean Palace disaster and the final battle. Lavos Core is able to open time warps to different eras. Lavos also appears to have knowledge of the future; during the final battle it emulate the fighting techniques of Guardian, which exists in 2300 AD. A possible explanation is that Lavos exists within a pocket dimension or "time bubble" which transcends time.
When Lavos arrived on earth in 65 million BC, it created a pocket dimension separate from normal space time. A wormhole connects the pocket dimension to every time period.
An observation made by chronotriggerfreak is that the wormhole connecting the pocket dimension to space-time would be governed by the same axiom governing Gates, namely: "Determining the Destination of Time Travel via Epoch and Time Gates". Because of this, the rate of time must be the same in the pocket dimension as the outside world.
Lavos' time axis would be perpendicular to the normal flow of time. Lavos ages within the pocket dimension at a normal rate, but it appears to be the same from any given time period. For example, if Lavos had existed within the pocket dimension for six million years, it would appear to be six million years old from every time period.
Anything done to Lavos from one time period, such as defeating the core, would be visible from all other time periods as well. Therefore, if the shell is defeated, Lavos appears to have no shell from each time period.
Lavos is not actually physically present within the earth. The wormhole aperture is located at the earth's core, giving Lavos access to the planet's energy and lifeforms. During the Day of Lavos or the Ocean Palace disaster, the wormhole ascends to the surface, causing a dimensional disturbance. The wormhole offers an uninterrupted view of the pocket dimension, creating the illusion of Lavos' presence.
If one approaches Lavos, and passes through the wormhole, the interior of the pocket dimension has appearance of the blue aura which surrounds Lavos. During the Ocean Palace Disaster, Queen Zeal, Magus and the others warp into the pocket dimension. During the final battle, Crono battles Lavos in the pocket dimension.
Lavos core is able to open time warps to different times, because it is connected to those eras through the wormhole. The aperture of the wormhole gives a distorted view of the time period being accessed. Lavos is also able to survey the entire timeline and would have knowledge of, for example, Guardian's fighting style.
After Lavos dies, the pocket dimension no longer connects to space-time, but the past Lavos exists on a separate timeline.
As before, the only problem with the Pocket Dimension is that Lavos shell is always intact during the Ocean Palace disaster.
Nature of Lavos' Space Flight
Another topic which was discussed was the nature of Lavos' space flight. During the short glimpse we are given of Lavos traveling through space on approach to earth in 65 million BC, Lavos demonstrated the capacity for powered maneuvering in space. Rather than collide with the earth in a hyperbolic trajectory, Lavos performs a braking maneuver in low earth orbit and slowly descends into the atmosphere. Lavos' self propulsion may be related to its magical power and manipulation of the Shadow element.
(http://www.chronocompendium.com/images/Articles/lavosflightpath.gif)
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Something that bothers me about Lavos living in a pocket dimension, able to access any dimension. If Lavos saw the threat of Chrono and Co., and is sentient enough to comprehend it, why doesn't Lavos do something to try and prevent them from doing something about him/her(Lavos)?
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Well, who said it would? If you were a being that used planets as a food source, would you worry too terribly much about one lone mortal being? I wouldn't.
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Lavos AIM Discussion #2
GrayLensman, Aitrus, Ybrik Metaknight, Fxeni, chronotriggerfreak, JustinS1985
Lavos-Underestimation Theory
Though Lavos may have had perspicacity enough to view all time periods, it underestimated the threat of Crono's party, and did not feel immediate action was worth the effort.
Commentary
GrayLemsan: Basically, Lavos didn't think the travelers were worth the effort. Magus sought Lavos' destruction long before Crono did, but Lavos only attacked when it was forcibly summoned to the surface. In the Ocean Palace, Lavos easily snuffed out Crono. If Lavos had a mind to anticipate any final confrontation, it would have justafiably assumed it would be the victor. Can you image the power (mechanical power, in Watts) required to break through those thousands of kilometers of rock? Lavos only had the will to do so when its immenant survival was threatened by the Mammon Machine, or it was unwillingly summoned.
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I was doing to suggest something about defeating Lavos' head in a New Game + at the Ocean Palace then losing to the innards, produces the 1999 AD bad ending. But since that didn't really happen, any argument based on that would be void.
Belthasar's notes in 2300 AD says that Lavos "briefly disappeared" when Magus "summoned him away" in 600 AD. I don't even know which argument that statement applies to, but I figured I'd bring it up because it sounds important.
As for 1999 AD, we know that the crew first fights Lavos in the pocket dimension, at which point they destroy his head and enter the shell. Assuming they used the gate and came back to 1999 AD later, this time they don't enter the pocket dimension, they walk right up to Lavos, who apparently busted out of the ground already, and discover that his head is missing. "Did we do that?"
If Lavos can't attack with its head destroyed, how does he still destroy the world in 1999 AD if the core beats Crono & Co.?
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Belthasar's notes in 2300 AD says that Lavos "briefly disappeared" when Magus "summoned him away" in 600 AD. I don't even know which argument that statement applies to, but I figured I'd bring it up because it sounds important.
This has given be an idea. When Magus summoned Lavos to his castle, he physically transported Lavos from the pocket dimension to 600 AD. During the fight between Magus and Lavos, or before Magus and the travelers were drawn into the Gate, Lavos disappeared from the earth for all time. After the confrontation was over, in either case, Lavos returned to the pocket dimension, and reappeared for all time. From outside observers, it would be as if Lavos had never left.
As for 1999 AD, we know that the crew first fights Lavos in the pocket dimension, at which point they destroy his head and enter the shell. Assuming they used the gate and came back to 1999 AD later, this time they don't enter the pocket dimension, they walk right up to Lavos, who apparently busted out of the ground already, and discover that his head is missing. "Did we do that?"
Lavos would not have exited the pocket dimension until after the time the travelers fought it. When the travelers walk up to the towering form of Lavos in 1999 AD, they step through the wormhole leading to Lavos' pocket dimension
If Lavos can't attack with its head destroyed, how does he still destroy the world in 1999 AD if the core beats Crono & Co.?
Lavos has demonstrated the ability to do so. Its true power resides within the core, which would be unharmed.
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Small note: Lavos' Core Being seems to have taken its arms from Nu.
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Small note: Lavos' Core Being seems to have taken its arms from Nu.
Interesting...I wonder if we might be able to identify other parts of Lavos?
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If Lavos can't attack with its head destroyed, how does he still destroy the world in 1999 AD if the core beats Crono & Co.?
Lavos has demonstrated the ability to do so. Its true power resides within the core, which would be unharmed.
Wait a minute... if the Spawn are produced with cores equivalent in advancement to Lavos's, then why is it that they seem to shut down once you destroy the head of the Shell? I mean, I know Lavos's core truly controls every part of the creature, but why do the Spawn seem unable to do this?
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I'm 99% sure that it is most likely because they are not yet mature; Lavos is a hugely cavernous being whose nature demands infiltration of his shell, while a good swords length in a Lavos spawn might be enough to kill it. One couldn't fit in that hole anyway.
Perhaps the cores are still living? That'd be a creepy thought, especially when one has to push the shell on Death Peak to access the upper regions. Also, in the Japanese version, it is said that those Krakkers are baby Lavoids.
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On why the Pocket Dimension aura continues to radiate during the Time Freeze:
GrayLensman01: I think the Time Egg froze the people inside the Lavos Dimensoin, but not the general environment. This could easily explian how the travelers can walk around, and the continuing activity of the aura. Because time does not pass in the pocket dimension relative to outside, the frozen people will not notice the time they missed. No matter how long they stay in the pocket, they will return to exactly the same time in the Ocean Palace.
xJPGIIx: Sounds good; it also explains why the people are frozen golden, and why Lavos also takes on a dark hue.
GrayLensman01: I can't say I know what a person frozen in time would look like. They would probably be redshifted, if visible at all.
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The latest time you can fight Lavos is 1999 AD (or else the Day of Lavos will still have occurred). When you fight the shell, Lavos imitates various bosses from the game. One of those bosses is Guardian from 2300 AD. If the Lavos battle takes place at any earlier time it imitates bosses from 1000 AD, etc. Also, if you defeat Lavos’ Shell at one time, and then gate to the past and fight it again, the Shell is still dead.
Could it be possible to lavos to have a second options ? being able of read the memory of the character who have already defeated the boss?[
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If Lavos can't attack with its head destroyed, how does he still destroy the world in 1999 AD if the core beats Crono & Co.?
Lavos has demonstrated the ability to do so. Its true power resides within the core, which would be unharmed.
Wait a minute... if the Spawn are produced with cores equivalent in advancement to Lavos's, then why is it that they seem to shut down once you destroy the head of the Shell? I mean, I know Lavos's core truly controls every part of the creature, but why do the Spawn seem unable to do this?
Keep in mind that the source of the cores power came from observing time. Seeing how the spawn were alive for no more then 300 years (short amount of time compared to how much time lavos observed) the core may have had such a little amount of power it could not survive with out the shell.
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they are just baby, that why they are found near death peak (near theyre mother's body)
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Copied from GameFAQs.
1.) In 65 million BC, Lavos impacted the surface of the earth at meteoric speed, creating a fireball that covered most of the continent and caused a global climactic change that lasted for millions of years. This explosion is similar to the K-T Meteor impact, which is estimated to have released energy equivalent to 100 trillion Tons of TNT.
For comparison, the most powerful hydrogen bomb ever produced had a yield of 50 million Tons, and the total world nuclear arsenal has a combined yield of approximately 5 billion Tons. The explosion of Krakatoa, the most violent volcanic eruption in recorded history, released energy equivalent to 200 million Tons.
Lavos, a biological organism, survived this impact with no apparent injury.
2.) In 1999 AD, Lavos destroyed the surface of the earth in preparation for reproduction. It caused sufficient damage to destroy human civilization and significantly change the geography of the planet. This required several orders of magnitude more energy than was released in Lavos' impact, which was produced (presumably) by its magical power alone.
3.) Lavos also destroyed the Zeal Kingdom, the Black Omen and Magus' Castle (?) using magic attacks equivalent to many millions of Tons of TNT.
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Saw that post; starx and the lord's other than JEsq who've popped up recently seem to be debating regularly on both boards. Lensman, just curious from recent activity -- have you found an internet solution?
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The evidence suggests that the Darkness Beyond Time, and hence the Time Devourer, is common to all dimensions. I hypothesize that the TD is the embodiment of all versions of Lavos and Schala which are sent to the DBT (i.e. the TD is a composite entity arising from infinite dimensions). This eliminates the possibility that multiple Time Devourer's could exist.
If there can only be one Time Devourer for infinite dimensions, the probability that Project Kid would be successful in at least one dimension approaches unity. However outlandish Belthazar's plan, his success was inevitable.
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I just have a few questions about this theory:
You refer to the Guardian serveral times in relation to Lavos being knowledgable about the future. We can assume that the Guardian was not constructed after 1999. The Guardian was probably made before 1999, thus giving Lavos complete knowledge of it without having to know the future... Would this even matter to your theory?
And about Lavos existing in his pocket dimension during the Day of Lavos, yet people could see it from the outside, yet only looking through to its dimension. Doesn't the game imply that it must have been physically present in the world during that time? I mean, we do see the Earth's crust start cracking, and then Lavos burst through it and shells the planet with God knows what to destroy it. If Lavos simply existed in his pocket dimension during this time, why would the game show him bursting from the ground, which would have required his physical presence to do so?
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Isn't the attack that he shells onto the planet called "Rain from the Heavens" or something?
Oh and I thought that Lavos' core gained power by sucking the Planets power, not by observing time. That'd be pretty boring...
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he probably got his power by a combination of the 2...
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And about Lavos existing in his pocket dimension during the Day of Lavos, yet people could see it from the outside, yet only looking through to its dimension. Doesn't the game imply that it must have been physically present in the world during that time? I mean, we do see the Earth's crust start cracking, and then Lavos burst through it and shells the planet with God knows what to destroy it. If Lavos simply existed in his pocket dimension during this time, why would the game show him bursting from the ground, which would have required his physical presence to do so?
Most likely Lavos could not have done the damage to the whole planet in its Pocket dimension. Considering it is probably only large enough to encompass it and some extra space, I doubt it could have fit the entire planet in there. So it had to leave that to be able to attack the planet.
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Yes, he would have had to leave that, but thats when Crono and co. attack him, after he burst through the ground.
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I just have a few questions about this theory:
You refer to the Guardian several times in relation to Lavos being knowledgable about the future. We can assume that the Guardian was not constructed after 1999. The Guardian was probably made before 1999, thus giving Lavos complete knowledge of it without having to know the future... Would this even matter to your theory?
And about Lavos existing in his pocket dimension during the Day of Lavos, yet people could see it from the outside, yet only looking through to its dimension. Doesn't the game imply that it must have been physically present in the world during that time? I mean, we do see the Earth's crust start cracking, and then Lavos burst through it and shells the planet with God knows what to destroy it. If Lavos simply existed in his pocket dimension during this time, why would the game show him bursting from the ground, which would have required his physical presence to do so?
The Pocket Dimension theory is an attempt to explain several strange aspects of Lavos and its behaviour.
- Damage to Lavos' shell visible previous time periods.
- Lavos' emulation of Guardian's fighting techniques.
- The blue field surrounding Lavos' shell.
- The "time warp" during the final battle.[/list:u]
It is possible that Guardian was constructed before 1999 AD, and lavos observed its function at that time. However, Lavos couldn't have known that the time travellers fought Guardian in 2300 AD unless it could see the future or read the travellers' minds, which are both possible.
Also, the "time warp" surrounding Lavos Core shows post-apocalyptic ruins which could not have been observed prior to 1999 AD.
During the Day of Lavos, Lavos appears to be physically present as it erupts through the crust, and when the travellers approach it on the ground, with no blue field surrounding its shell. However, when the travellers confront Lavos, the battle takes place in the blue field.
In normal space, Lavos' shell may appear as a projection of Lavos' true self, much like the Dragon Gods in Chrono Trigger. Lavos' shell may also exist partially in normal space, and Lavos' dimension.
Lavos needed to move to the surface to reproduce. It's spawn feed on the energy of the destroyed world until they are mature. Lavos could have existed the pocket dimension completely or moved the opening of the dimension to the surface.
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unless it could see the future or read the travellers' minds, which are both possible.
Also, the "time warp" surrounding Lavos Core shows post-apocalyptic ruins which could not have been observed prior to 1999 AD.
that could by "psychologic measure. you know to insulate fear of your ennemies. Boss are though creatures, and hero spend time to fight them.
Last mimic the creature and the background to influence the heroe"s mind and make them weaker.
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Well if you think about it since Lavos is not part of any specific time it can go anywhere in a timeline. So it can see into 2300. Or it could have just felt the presence of the Gaurdian like every other boss the group encountered. Lavos never had direct contact with any of the boss they fight except for Magus. So it must obtain this mimicing ability from draining the power of the planet. And there is still power left in the planet after 1999, if there wasn't how would the spawn be able to grow?
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The spawns could kill the "Mother" Lavos and get the energy/food to grow and, after this, go to another world and repeat this cycle. The black widow does something like that, but I can't remember if it's after the sexual act or after its spawns born.
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Well if you think about it since Lavos is not part of any specific time it can go anywhere in a timeline. So it can see into 2300.
Wow. That makes me think... since you fight Lavos in 1,999AD (or before 2,300AD in any case), if this Lavos "looks" into the future, shouldn't he see Chronopolis and all its stuff instead of the ruined world? You know, since he technically didn't destroy the world yet.
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Well if you think about it since Lavos is not part of any specific time it can go anywhere in a timeline. So it can see into 2300.
Wow. That makes me think... since you fight Lavos in 1,999AD (or before 2,300AD in any case), if this Lavos "looks" into the future, shouldn't he see Chronopolis and all its stuff instead of the ruined world? You know, since he technically didn't destroy the world yet.
Well no, because the original timeline si that lavos does destroy the future. Its not like Lavos did any timetraveling to do what it does.
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Maybe when Lavos first emerged in 1999ad, he briefly came out of his pocket dimension to break through the surface. in the original timeline he would have shelled the whole planet, and in the next timeline, he fell back to his pocket dimension when Crono and co. attacked it, or maybe he simply moved it when Crono and co. attacked. would that explain it?
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Inquiry
Why did Lavos destroy Zeal, then wait to attack the world in 1999 A.D.?
Answer
Zeal was significantly draining his power through the Mammon Machine; when the device was moved to the bottom of the ocean floor, the leeching was sufficient to cause concern for Lavos, who obliterated the perpetrators. In 1999 A.D., human civilization was probably nearing a level of technology that could possibly challenge Lavos. Also, it is probably that a few hundred years down the road, Chronopolis might come to pass (or another temporal research facility that could strike Lavos with a time-based strategy). Lavos destroyed humanity at this moment in order to prevent any possible threats. However, unlike the case in Zeal, where Lavos only had to destroy a floating country, here Lavos exploded the entire surface of the planet to completely render civilization derelict.
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Inquiry
Can Lavos's power be compared to real life units?
Answer
1.) In 65 million BC, Lavos impacted the surface of the earth at meteoric speed, creating a fireball that covered most of the continent and caused a global climactic change that lasted for millions of years. This explosion is similar to the K-T Meteor impact, which is estimated to have released energy equivalent to 100 trillion Tons of TNT.
For comparison, the most powerful hydrogen bomb ever produced had a yield of 50 million Tons, and the total world nuclear arsenal has a combined yield of approximately 5 billion Tons. The explosion of Krakatoa, the most violent volcanic eruption in recorded history, released energy equivalent to 200 million Tons.
Lavos, a biological organism, survived this impact with no apparent injury.
2.) In 1999 AD, Lavos destroyed the surface of the earth in preparation for reproduction. It caused sufficient damage to destroy human civilization and significantly change the geography of the planet. This required several orders of magnitude more energy than was released in Lavos' impact, which was produced (presumably) by its magical power alone.
3.) Lavos also destroyed the Zeal Kingdom, the Black Omen and Magus' Castle (?) using magic attacks equivalent to many millions of Tons of TNT.
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Maybe when Lavos first emerged in 1999ad, he briefly came out of his pocket dimension to break through the surface. in the original timeline he would have shelled the whole planet, and in the next timeline, he fell back to his pocket dimension when Crono and co. attacked it, or maybe he simply moved it when Crono and co. attacked. would that explain it?
I want to say that Lavos felt thier presence and could feel thier power. So it retreated into it's Pocket Dimension, where it would be more powerful than outside of it in the normal world.