Chrono Compendium
Enhasa Halls - Chrono Series Analysis => History, Locations, and Artifacts => Topic started by: ShoeMagus on November 28, 2005, 09:47:13 pm
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There's something so immensely bothersome about this. I keep hearing that Melichior made it. As a sister sword to the Masamune. But this doesn't seem right.
The Einlanzer is a drasticallly different sword though. The Masamune absorbs and intensifies the emotions of the user. The Einlanzer seems wholly good and incorruptible.
The Masamune seems a sword more of the Zenan continent and Guardia. Einlanzer seems more suited for the Acacia Dragoons. But then again this might just be through associations.
What really got me thinking though, was the reference in Chrono Cross to the Einlanzer being mentioned in connection with the word dragon or dragonic (can't remember which.)
The Dragonians? Could the Dragonians have made the Einlanzer? Could the Einlanzer be the Dinopolis dimension parallel to the Masamune?
Its just an observation. What exactly connects it to Melechior?
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Its just an observation. What exactly connects it to Melechior?
Nothing beyond Radical Dreamers. I'd actually agree with your theory about it being made by the Dragonians or whoever. No real evidence of anything, though.
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Hm..
I will have to agree I think Einlanzer is almost the Dragonians's Masamune(Just that it more holy.). :P
Hello..
Look at what I found on the CC Script.
Radius:
Only the dragon sword,
Einlanzer, can break the
seal of the Masamune.
Norris:
The Einlanzer?
The sword forged by
ancient Dragonians?
Member:
The Einlanzer?
Radius:
Yes...
The legendary holy sword,
forged by the Dragonites...
I have placed that sword to rest
beside its rightful owner, Garai.
May he rest in peace
within that cavern...
Although it pains me
to disturb his eternal sleep,
we have no other choice...
I think this help your theory even more. :P
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Yup, you can now change "theory" to "common knowledge" even!
:P is right
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In RD, it was apparently Melchior who forged the Einlanzer. This prooves that RD takes place in a different dimension than CT/CC even if it shares many similarities with CT.
"If you must search that room, be sure you have the Einlanzer with you
before you do."
"Eye-what?" Kid asks.
"It is a holy white sword, created long ago by ancient sages along with its
demonic brother, the Masamune.
It was the Acacia Dragoons' most prized weapon. It once glided through the
air in Zorander's hand, shimmering like a star...
Now, however, the Dragoons are all but extinct, and the sword has been
stored somewhere in this mansion, as though it was some sort of trivial
memento...
It is much more than a common sword, though. Shielded by its magical
enchantment, its bearer will be protected against many forms of evil."
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Ancient Sages means more than one. Hence, it'd mean that Gaspar, Belthasar and Melchior had to have made it. But Dragonite sages could also count. And if for instance both were made out of Dreamstone, them being called brothers would be symbolic, even if they were not indeed crafted by the same person.
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Ancient Sages means more than one. Hence, it'd mean that Gaspar, Belthasar and Melchior had to have made it. But Dragonite sages could also count. And if for instance both were made out of Dreamstone, them being called brothers would be symbolic, even if they were not indeed crafted by the same person.
Magil clearly says it was created along with the Masamune, so it can only have been made by the same guy(s) who made the Masamune. I doubt it could be Dragonians, they don't even exist in RD. The Dragonians are from CC, a game which was made 4 years after CT (RD was made only 1 year after CT). Square didn't even intend RD to be a sequel to CT when they first started the game development, so it's hard to believe that Masato Kato already had the Dragonians and the whole Project Kid in his mind at that time.
Moreover, don't forget that the Gurus were called Sages in the Japanese version of CT. Belthasar in the American version of CC also states that he was once called the Sage of Reason. Thus I'm inclined to think that this RD quote is a direct reference to Melchior and his comrades.
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Ancient Sages means more than one. Hence, it'd mean that Gaspar, Belthasar and Melchior had to have made it. But Dragonite sages could also count. And if for instance both were made out of Dreamstone, them being called brothers would be symbolic, even if they were not indeed crafted by the same person.
Magil clearly says it was created along with the Masamune, so it can only have been made by the same guy(s) who made the Masamune. I doubt it could be Dragonians, they don't even exist in RD. The Dragonians are from CC, a game which was made 4 years after CT (RD was made only 1 year after CT). Square didn't even intend RD to be a sequel to CT when they first started the game development, so it's hard to believe that Masato Kato already had the Dragonians and the whole Project Kid in his mind at that time.
Moreover, don't forget that the Gurus were called Sages in the Japanese version of CT. Belthasar in the American version of CC also states that he was once called the Sage of Reason. Thus I'm inclined to think that this RD quote is a direct reference to Melchior and his comrades.
Well CC was more of an official Sequel. It could very well be in RD that the Einlanzer was created by Melichior. But like has been rehashed over and over again, that isn't neccessarily what happened, except in another dimension.
The Einlanzer being a sister or brother sword makes sense in the Dragonian perpsective. Made as the Dragonian dimension version of the Masamune, they are very well brother/sister swords. I mean, who can say whether the Dragonians didn't have their own Melechior, Gaspar, and Belthasar. We can't really as they didn't have the Kingdom of Zeal and the problem of Lavos. They DID whoever have powers connected directly with the Earth.
If I understand correctly, Dragonians didn't have Dreamstone. And we really don't know what the Einlanzer is made from. It never says in CC. Dreamstone is the obvious choice, but why then does it have seemingly none of the Masamune's qualities? Or has too much good been imbued in it? If so then why wasn't it affected by Garai's vengeful ghost?
It points to perhaps being a relic from the Dragonian's dimension's past, or made after they crossed over (then having access to the Dreamstone.)
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Heh. If anything, the Dragonians would have MORE Dreamstone. But I think that when the Dragonians crossed over, they created Einlanzer as a counter to Masamune, which may or may not have been used in the Polis War. Anyway, it doesn't matter. One, I seriously doubt they just HAPPENED to have a polar opposite to Masamune without having knowledge of Masamune's existence, and Two, It strengthens the Dragonian Vs. Human symbolism.
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Ancient Sages means more than one. Hence, it'd mean that Gaspar, Belthasar and Melchior had to have made it. But Dragonite sages could also count. And if for instance both were made out of Dreamstone, them being called brothers would be symbolic, even if they were not indeed crafted by the same person.
Magil clearly says it was created along with the Masamune, so it can only have been made by the same guy(s) who made the Masamune. I doubt it could be Dragonians, they don't even exist in RD. The Dragonians are from CC, a game which was made 4 years after CT (RD was made only 1 year after CT). Square didn't even intend RD to be a sequel to CT when they first started the game development, so it's hard to believe that Masato Kato already had the Dragonians and the whole Project Kid in his mind at that time.
Moreover, don't forget that the Gurus were called Sages in the Japanese version of CT. Belthasar in the American version of CC also states that he was once called the Sage of Reason. Thus I'm inclined to think that this RD quote is a direct reference to Melchior and his comrades.
Well CC was more of an official Sequel. It could very well be in RD that the Einlanzer was created by Melichior. But like has been rehashed over and over again, that isn't neccessarily what happened, except in another dimension.
You misread my post. I was speaking only about the RD dimension. Now for the CT/CC dimension, it's a fact as it has been quoted by Dragoness that the Dragonites were the ones who forged the CC Einlanzer.
The Einlanzer being a sister or brother sword makes sense in the Dragonian perpsective. Made as the Dragonian dimension version of the Masamune, they are very well brother/sister swords. I mean, who can say whether the Dragonians didn't have their own Melechior, Gaspar, and Belthasar. We can't really as they didn't have the Kingdom of Zeal and the problem of Lavos. They DID whoever have powers connected directly with the Earth.
If I understand correctly, Dragonians didn't have Dreamstone. And we really don't know what the Einlanzer is made from. It never says in CC. Dreamstone is the obvious choice, but why then does it have seemingly none of the Masamune's qualities? Or has too much good been imbued in it? If so then why wasn't it affected by Garai's vengeful ghost?
It points to perhaps being a relic from the Dragonian's dimension's past, or made after they crossed over (then having access to the Dreamstone.)
We don't know at all if Dragonians had Dreamstone. They might or might not have any in their time-line. There doesn't seem to be any Dreamstone in Terra Tower but it doesn't mean anything since it's a tower most probably built millions of years after prehistory. In the CT dimension, you didn't see any Dreamstone neither after 12,000 BC except for the Masamune and the Pendant.
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We can't really say for certain that the Dragonites aren't in RD. Viper Manor could not have been made in El Nido without the Dragonians also being there. El Nido will always mean that FATE created it, and that the Earth pulls in Dinopolis. I think that Masato Kato and crew had a vauge idea of what they were going to do for CC.
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In RD, it was apparently Melchior who forged the Einlanzer. This prooves that RD takes place in a different dimension than CT/CC even if it shares many similarities with CT.
It doesn't prove that about CT as CT has no Einlanzer.
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We can't really say for certain that the Dragonites aren't in RD. Viper Manor could not have been made in El Nido without the Dragonians also being there. El Nido will always mean that FATE created it, and that the Earth pulls in Dinopolis. I think that Masato Kato and crew had a vauge idea of what they were going to do for CC.
The RD Viper Manor isn't in some El Nido archipelago but in some region on the mainland (Regiorra, Gherbuele something? I forgot). It's hard to believe Kato had an idea for CC as the development of RD wasn't even meant to have anything to do with CT to begin with... And why would Kato have a Dinopolis concept for RD? The only scenaristic reason for having put Dinopolis in CC was for the Chrono Cross' creation (the Element). There's no mention of this Element in RD and there's no Time Devourer to use the Element on.
Why would Kato have a vague idea of the CC plot (= an idea of Project Kid) while RD simply negates the necessity to set this plot in motion? (Project Kid is for saving Schala from Lavos, but in RD Schala never fused with Lavos to begin with).
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Well, the thing with elements. Serge tried using "Inferno" but it failed. No human should have or know that magic exists. Elements on the other hand were widely known about in El Nido. If Serge's element thing wasn't full yet, he might not have been able to cast it.
BTW, I always thought that Regiorra and Grezenbule were just prototype names for like Termina, Arni etc.
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Having a parallel Dragonian version isn't dependant on the Dragonians knowing about the Masamune. I would imagine they didn't know about Chronopolis yet they still had a Dinopolis.
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Well, the thing with elements. Serge tried using "Inferno" but it failed. No human should have or know that magic exists. Elements on the other hand were widely known about in El Nido. If Serge's element thing wasn't full yet, he might not have been able to cast it.
BTW, I always thought that Regiorra and Grezenbule were just prototype names for like Termina, Arni etc.
Not quite.
I barely miss a set of claws as I dodge a quick attack. As it lands and starts
to turn around, I take advantage of the opportunity and chant an old spell of
mine, hoping to get the incantation right...
However, nothing happens!
I whip around to see Magil's inferno spell setting a cat's head ablaze! It
jumps up, screeching and howling in madness before running away wildly. In
confusion, it runs directly into a tree and knocks itself out cold!
The characters in Radical Dreamers are using magic.
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Then why could Kid not use any magic. Kid had to merge with the Sunflower and use Shadow magic, and then her power from Schala's old soul was awakened in her, and now she was able to use it. (This should answer the old question of which innate she was. In RD, it's more towards the line of Shadow magic).
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Then why could Kid not use any magic. Kid had to merge with the Sunflower and use Shadow magic, and then her power from Schala's old soul was awakened in her, and now she was able to use it. (This should answer the old question of which innate she was. In RD, it's more towards the line of Shadow magic).
Kid could not initially use magic for the same reason Crono had to visit Spekkio before he could use magic. Presumably, all magic users need to have their ability unlocked, such as by the Mammon Machine or Spekkio.
Shadow would also be my guess for Schala's alignment.
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Then why could Kid not use any magic. Kid had to merge with the Sunflower and use Shadow magic, and then her power from Schala's old soul was awakened in her, and now she was able to use it. (This should answer the old question of which innate she was. In RD, it's more towards the line of Shadow magic).
Kid could not initially use magic for the same reason Crono had to visit Spekkio before he could use magic. Presumably, all magic users need to have their ability unlocked, such as by the Mammon Machine or Spekkio.
Shadow would also be my guess for Schala's alignment.
Or the Frozen Flame (or was it the Dreamstone? or Both?)
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Or the Frozen Flame (or was it the Dreamstone? or Both?)
I think those are equally possible.
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Frozen Flame, but you'd either have to make the wish or it'd take a while for it to be unlocked.
Dreamstone would only drain you of energy most likely.
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I think more along the lines of destruction magic.
But thats just for when time devour forms.
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I think its the Dreamstone actually.
Consider electricity would burn you alive in its pure form. But convert and control it, and its extremely harnessable.
Sure the Dreamstone unproccessed would drain you. But harness it, change it, and turn it into some dynamically usable. Till it begins to change you. The Masamune harnessed the emotional energy of the user. But it also began to affect others. While this is only most visible in its evil form, there's no evidence it wasn't true in its Holy sword form.
So could it not be the thing, that through our manipulation, probably some rudimentary form of science, it began to change us too?
I like the Frozen Flame idea and all. And I do believe that had a hand. But I don't think it was the only hand. Is the famous quote at the top of my signature not atrributed to the Dreamstone?
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I think more along the lines of destruction magic.
But thats just for when time devour forms.
Er, what do you mean? When the Time Devourer formed, I don't recall any, "negative," energy being involved per se. Lavos did have negative emotions, however the force that combined them didn't a moral standing.
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I think its the Dreamstone actually.
Consider electricity would burn you alive in its pure form. But convert and control it, and its extremely harnessable.
Sure the Dreamstone unproccessed would drain you. But harness it, change it, and turn it into some dynamically usable. Till it begins to change you. The Masamune harnessed the emotional energy of the user. But it also began to affect others. While this is only most visible in its evil form, there's no evidence it wasn't true in its Holy sword form.
So could it not be the thing, that through our manipulation, probably some rudimentary form of science, it began to change us too?
I like the Frozen Flame idea and all. And I do believe that had a hand. But I don't think it was the only hand. Is the famous quote at the top of my signature not atrributed to the Dreamstone?
Have you played Chrono Cross? Common sence proves that the shard of red rock WAS and IS the Frozen Flame.
1) Chronopolis says that a drastic change in the humans anatomy and brain size happened 3 million years ago, because they came in contact with something alienish.
2) Chronopolis says that because Lavos killed off the Reptites for the humans, they survived. That they are his prodigy in more than one way *hint hint- Frozen Flame evolution*
3)If the Prehistoric people had dreamstone all along, then they'd have been advanced before 3,000,000BC.
4) The Masamune was powered and formed from Lavos' energy, and is guarded by Masa and Mune. A lot of it's energy is released when the user releases emotions, but the evil one automatically feeds off their negative ones.
5) Lynx called the Frozen Flame "The Crimson Stone". That's almost what Belthasar said. Per say, Belthasar didn't know what to call the Frozen Flame until he came into the saved timeline in 2300AD where the Frozen Flame was more than a myth and was given a name.
6)The word here being "shard" that relates to what Chronopolis had said about a "shard" of Lavos falling off as he entered the atmosphere.
Ofcourse, Ultima magazine says that the Frozen Flame is dreamstone, but Ultima cannot be trusted. How can a piece of Lavos that is sentient be a natural inanimate object that is only produced on the planet. Not to mention the magazine having descripancies to do with Characters and plot itself.
As for Kid (Schala), i think he meant that Shadow magic is destructive magic, which it is. Schala most likely is a Shadow Innate. And I hold onto the belief that Shadow magic is true magic. That anyone who has Shadow magic can use Lightning,Fire and Water magic. Basically, Shadow magic split off into the other 3 when the Zealians stopped learning magic and just leeched of the Mammon Machine. In other words, the purest form of usable magic was Shadow. That's why Magus, being a Shadow Magic dude can not only use the other 3 innates even though he isn't of that innate, but he can also cast spells to transform people into Frog's etc.
And just like with Schala, she shows us that she can do more than an innate magic can do.
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1) Chronopolis says that a drastic change in the humans anatomy and brain size happened 3 million years ago, because they came in contact with something alienish.
2) Chronopolis says that because Lavos killed off the Reptites for the humans, they survived. That they are his prodigy in more than one way *hint hint- Frozen Flame evolution*
3)If the Prehistoric people had dreamstone all along, then they'd have been advanced before 3,000,000BC.
The face in Terra Tower (not Chronopolis by the way) claims that the "unnatural" evolution process lasted 3,000,000 years, not that it began in 3,000,000 BC. The span could have been from 65,000,000 BC to 62,000,000 BC for all we know.
Ofcourse, Ultima magazine says that the Frozen Flame is dreamstone, but Ultima cannot be trusted. How can a piece of Lavos that is sentient be a natural inanimate object that is only produced on the planet. Not to mention the magazine having descripancies to do with Characters and plot itself.
That's a pure urban legend. Ultimania never says that the FF is Dreamstone, it just compares them, make out some similitudes, then precisely notes, just like you do, that FF can't be DS because DS existed before Lavos fell on the planet.
And I don't see what those character and plot discrepancies are.
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I only ever saw a scan with the DS page on it and the FF. Someone just said that it had a lot of discreprencies, and that's why it couldn't be trusted.
Also, I'd rather believe what Chronopolis says than the face in Terra Tower. Chronopolis works of facts and logic.
Whilst Terra Tower is not only from another dimension, but it's probably also guessing as they don't like humans anyway.
This is proof that they came in contact with the Flame. It's in Fort Dragonia:
Wielding absolute power,
Lavos buried the dinosaurs -
the kings of the land -
in the space of a night.
However, the timid '"apes"'
who had lived hidden in
the forests...
...came into contact with
the crimsom flame
that fell from the sky,
and evolved into '"humans."'
Or perhaps it was
not '"evolution,"'
but '"transformation."'
See.. It's the shard.. The Frozen Flame!!
Need more proof? This is the quote from Terra Tower:
A brain that has developed abnormally
to 3 times the original size in the
span of 3 million years...
We humans have evolved at an
enormous rate because of our
contact with Lavos's flame...
In a sense, mankind is Lavos's offspring...
We humans are extraneous to this planet...
I wonder who the prisoner is...
It may have been in a span of 3 million years, but it was done by Lavos' flame.. The Frozen Flame. And since Chronopolis said it happened 3,000,000 years ago, then that span happened around then. You need to combine game evidence to get the truth, you know.
Oh and while I was searching through the Script.. Guess who named Nikki's band?:
Nikki:
But one day, a woman stopped
by my trailer and said...
'"Your songs sing of
magical dreams.
They're beautiful..."'
Those words made me
so happy...
That's when I decided that
if I were ever to have my
own band, I would name it
'"Magical Dreamers!!!"'
Kid:
Huh...
I think I might have
an idea who that
woman might be...
Nikki:
......!
You know her!?
Inc17002Please, tell me
who she is!
I've been wanting to
thank her all these years!
Kid:
......
One of these days, I'll tell ya.
...When everythin's over.
Nikki:
Looks like you have
your reasons...
OK, then,
that's a promise.
Kid:
Yeah, sure...
But when that time comes,
let me hear some of
yer old songs.
Seems like Lucca XD So Lucca was the reason behind Radical and Magical Dreamers, lol!
Hmm.. Kk
Also, This may be off topic, but I think I found what kind of proves Schala's/Kid's merger.
It has the power to cross
space and time and unify
people's thoughts and feelings...
It has the power to
transfer memories...
We know that in the end, Schala seems to be having some kind of personality problem... This may answer it.
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It may have been in a span of 3 million years, but it was done by Lavos' flame.. The Frozen Flame. And since Chronopolis said it happened 3,000,000 years ago, then that span happened around then. You need to combine game evidence to get the truth, you know.
How ironic. Of course we have to combine game evidence, but you also don't have to create imaginary evidence to suit your theories :roll: . Chronopolis never said anything about something happening 3,000,000 years ago.
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It may have been in a span of 3 million years, but it was done by Lavos' flame.. The Frozen Flame. And since Chronopolis said it happened 3,000,000 years ago, then that span happened around then. You need to combine game evidence to get the truth, you know.
How ironic. Of course we have to combine game evidence, but you also don't have to create imaginary evidence to suit your theories :roll: . Chronopolis never said anything about something happening 3,000,000 years ago.
Hmm, My bad. I thought it was actually said so. Anyway, it makes more sence if it was in the last 3,000,000 years. Evolution can't just go 3,000,000years and then theres a halt. If they were around the flame as they should have been, then they'd be even more evolved. And because Zeal still had the Flame (Mammon Machine interior) that would mean that 3,000,000BC-12,000BC was the time when the flame did it's work most logically.
The anthropod brain enlarged
at an accelerating pace until it
became the human brain we know.
Could the reason for the
abnormal development of the
human brain be the biological
contamination caused by Lavos?
That would mean that humans are
really a heterogeneous life-form,
or '"foreign matter,"' as far as
the planet is concerned.
Humans are a sudden mutation
caused by the contact with
Lavos -- an alien life-form that
fell to this planet from space.
That is why humans are,
biologically speaking,
unbalanced and half-finished.
Internally inconsistent and
disconnected, the human
existence is plagued by
contradictions.
An incomplete species,
torn between love and hatred,
whose very being is self-
contradictory.
From the planet's viewpoint,
humans are just destroyers
and a cursed, yet perhaps
pathetic, blight on the world.
An Incomplete species, torn between love and hatred, whose very being is self-contradictory. This was what Belthasar was talking about. It cultivated Dreams and in turn, Love and Hate were born. What Belthasar was talking about was definitely the flame.
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Where did the Frozen Flame come from? From what I've come to understand, it was a broken shard of Lavos that broke off of him/it on impact with Earth.
Dreamstone existed on Earth before the Frozen Flame. Ayla had a bigass chunk of it if you recall which is how the Masamune was mended.
And very good with the Frozen Flame. But what am I talking and arguing about? The origin of Magic. You're talking about Human evolution/transformation. And Yes the Frozen Flame boosted our mental powers. We went from the apes Azala so despised to Humans, living in floating continents.
But the Origin of Magic? The Flame and Lavos is always assumed. Unless I misread what you posted, it still never mentions it.
Now next you'll no doubt quote that Dinopolis didn't have Magic other then elements. But it was still a form of controlling the natural forces of the world. My conclusion? Magic evolved differently. Yes Lavos did change humanity and in a way, I think he opened a door to the use of magic in the way it was. But the origin of Magic? No. There's nothing saying that the Dragonians didn't have Magic as the Zealians did or Crono and Co did. We just knew the elements.
Shadow has always so fascinated me. Do you recall Spekkio's comment on Magus? "You guys brought in a marlin here. He could probably teach ME a thing or two." It seems very much that Shadow would've been THE magic. Shadow is the most powerful (quoted as such if you read the game booklet, Lightning Water and Fire are said to go into the creation of Shadow.)
Though its kind of open. It SEEMS most likely. But then again, things like the Life tech doesn't seem to have any connection to Lightning magic, but Crono could still use it. It was most likely developers balancing out the character, but it has to be considered.
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Magic was not created. It had always been there. It held up the universe pretty much. The elements are the energy of the planet.
The Dragonians being so close with the planet developed the elements of the universe, the natural energy. Fire, Water, Wind, Earth, Darkness and Light are all of them. The Dragonians were able to use certain spots on Earth to seal the energies into little stony thingies probably and called them elements. With them, stuff could be done.
Magic is like the foundations of the universe. The primary energies are Fire, Water, Lightning and Shadow.
With the power that the humans were embeded with, they were able to use it, as you said, the FF was like a doorway to that power. I'm pretty sure that it was very basic, and they always used Shadow as the principle magic. But after King Zeal died, Queen Zeal finally found the Flame and with the guru's help, contructed the Mammon Machine that drained Lavos' energy so the Enlightened Ones had an infinite amount of power and did not even have to learn magic to use it. They could just channel his energies. People such as Schala, Queen Zeal, Magus and the Guru's stuck to the original magic that they had learned (Shadow) and used it to their advantage. Queen Zeal inparticular combined hers with Lavos' to enhance it.
That's why my belief is that Lightning, Fire and Water just split off from Shadow, and Shadow can be the original power. Well, it suits the universe, right? Anti-matter, Matter etc.
Also, I think what Spekkio said to Ayla was an incorrect translation. Instead of "You were born before magic" he should have said something like "You were born before people could harness magic".
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But Shadow being more powerful than all the other magic types would throw off the equalibrium. And clearly, Lightning is supposed to be the opposite of Shadow just like Fire was to Water.
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Magic was not created. It had always been there. It held up the universe pretty much. The elements are the energy of the planet.
The Dragonians being so close with the planet developed the elements of the universe, the natural energy. Fire, Water, Wind, Earth, Darkness and Light are all of them. The Dragonians were able to use certain spots on Earth to seal the energies into little stony thingies probably and called them elements. With them, stuff could be done.
Magic is like the foundations of the universe. The primary energies are Fire, Water, Lightning and Shadow.
With the power that the humans were embeded with, they were able to use it, as you said, the FF was like a doorway to that power. I'm pretty sure that it was very basic, and they always used Shadow as the principle magic. But after King Zeal died, Queen Zeal finally found the Flame and with the guru's help, contructed the Mammon Machine that drained Lavos' energy so the Enlightened Ones had an infinite amount of power and did not even have to learn magic to use it. They could just channel his energies. People such as Schala, Queen Zeal, Magus and the Guru's stuck to the original magic that they had learned (Shadow) and used it to their advantage. Queen Zeal inparticular combined hers with Lavos' to enhance it.
That's why my belief is that Lightning, Fire and Water just split off from Shadow, and Shadow can be the original power. Well, it suits the universe, right? Anti-matter, Matter etc.
Also, I think what Spekkio said to Ayla was an incorrect translation. Instead of "You were born before magic" he should have said something like "You were born before people could harness magic".
Ehh semantics. Thats what I meant. I didn't mean to suggest that magic didn't always exist. Hows this, The Origin of Magic Users?
Was that meant as a refutation? The Frozen Flame is the doorway. It lead humans to the capacity, brainwise or otherwise to have the ability. It lead humanity to be able to use magic the way they did. To summon the powers without the elemental grids. But the Dreamstone gave humans the power of the magic. It gave us the power itself to use it.
How do I verbalize this? Well look at the other sources of it. The Sun Stone for one. The Rainbow shell. The "energies of this tired planet." These are all things that are of the Earth. Along with the Dreamstone. Are we to believe that it was something foreign that gave humanity the ability? The capacity of the ability sure, thats been beaten out enough. But the ability itself. That once we had the capacity, the Dreamstone began to affect us in a new way. So it would cultivate our dreams.
Of course then the Zealians would find Lavos' power. And it was a different kind of magic. Queen Zeal avowed it so. She showed disdain for the energies of the Earth and began to covet the power of Lavos. The power that was so ridiculously immense. She began to show disdain for the other sources. The Sun stone, the rainbow shell. I think if she hadn't needed Dreamstone to build the Mammon Machine, that would've been banned to. Locked away somewhere. So that power only came from Lavos and she aloned controlled it.
In her mind at least. No one controls Lavos.
That makes sense Aura. I recall it from the booklet however.
Let me point this out. In the Magus fight, when Magus used magic shields as he used each successive element on you. After he would use Dark Bomb and change so Shadow could alone hurt him, you could (if you had Lucca) use Crono, Frog, and Lucca's triple Tech delta storm and that would hurt him. Why? Because all of the Elements combined created Shadow.
And similarly all of them are only pieces. And not as ultimately powerful as the whole. I'm not saying, though, that one using Lightning could not destroy one using Shadow. It depends on skill and training. But Ultimately, Shadow is dominant over the others. As can be shown by Magus' ability to use Lightning2, Fire2, and Ice2 along with his assortment of Shadow styled abilities.
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But Shadow being more powerful than all the other magic types would throw off the equalibrium. And clearly, Lightning is supposed to be the opposite of Shadow just like Fire was to Water.
Maybe, but guess what?
Fire and Ice = Ice loses out. Lucca vs Marle is a different matter. Because there is an ice innate and a water innate, that like stuffs up things. It's like saying that if we had another party member, one could be "Lava" and one could be "light" etc.
But the whole sence of having a balance would make sence too. Like the FF is a counter to Dreamstone, Shadow magic (which may have produced the others) would have created it's own counter.
I just think that Shadow is some how more superior as lightning/fire/water are more elemental (elemental palace) whilst Shadow is more universal in terms of doing stuff (I mean, he can cast any other spell, his own and also turn people into frogs and other stuff).
Of course then the Zealians would find Lavos' power. And it was a different kind of magic. Queen Zeal avowed it so. She showed disdain for the energies of the Earth and began to covet the power of Lavos. The power that was so ridiculously immense. She began to show disdain for the other sources. The Sun stone, the rainbow shell. I think if she hadn't needed Dreamstone to build the Mammon Machine, that would've been banned to. Locked away somewhere. So that power only came from Lavos and she aloned controlled it.
It wasn't a different kind of magic, it was a different kind of power that they could channel for magical uses. I don't think Zeal had the rainbow shell, and the sun stone may either be natural or like maybe a comet that landed before 65,000,000BC.
I don't get what you mean by Dreamstone being banned if it had to build the Mammon Machine? It WAS built out of dreamstone, and the Frozen Flame was inside the machine. Dreamstone is an energy leech that aplifies energy at someones command.
In this case, Zeal did not control the power. It was Schala who did. She was forced into it, as if she were the Arbiter.
How do I verbalize this? Well look at the other sources of it. The Sun Stone for one. The Rainbow shell. The "energies of this tired planet." These are all things that are of the Earth. Along with the Dreamstone. Are we to believe that it was something foreign that gave humanity the ability? The capacity of the ability sure, thats been beaten out enough. But the ability itself. That once we had the capacity, the Dreamstone began to affect us in a new way. So it would cultivate our dreams.
By "energies of this tired planet" I thought had always been about the sunstone. But it doesn't matter. The planet is tired. The Zealians can probably feel that it has no energy. Why? Because Lavos is draining it.
And yes, we are to believe that something foreign gave the humans the ability to use magic. If you've ever played CC, then you'd realise that it is indeed the Frozen Flame. It connects very well to what Belthasar said. Of how the humans evolved so fast (from a power beyond comrephension) and soon love and hate were born (humans are a contradiction, a species born out of love and hatred).
The initial ability was probably channeling the energies of the sunstone or something, or maybe the humans could use it naturally. But then the Zealians got lazy when Lavos' energy was harnessed, and they just decided to leech of it, some just slept all day. (Remember those people in the mammon machine room, like having an orgasm over the power?)
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I meant that if the Queen didn't need the Dreamstone to build the Mammon Machine, she would've forsaken it like the Sun Stone.
Once again, I've played CC and all thats every insinuated is that the FF gave the capacity to use magic as it was used.
Yes the Dreamstone is used to store energy. But does it not affect without command? We've seen evidence of this through the Masamune, made from Dreamstone. Whilst it was receptive to the emotions of the user and did amplify it, it also affected the user. This is MOST evident in the corrupted form as the Masamune affects both Radius and Dario to turn against their friends. And not on command. But wildly, uncontrolled.
A quick question, what exactly were the elements made of? Yes the power of the elements came from Power Spots, but what exactly did the Dragonians use to store the power?
And Zeal only controlled the power in mind. Like I said. I'm speaking in terms of Queen Zeal's point of view. In a way, by locking away all power sources (except for Lavos) and then being able to Harness Lavos, she was the one controlling magic in the Kingdom. Sure, Schala was the one who actually controlled the Mammon Machine. But Queen Zeal, from her point of view, was setting herself up as the prime source of magic (or power or whatever word you use. Energy) in the kingdom.
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I guess, Zeal's main goal was to gain immortality, and after that, the rest of her people could.
But I think the problem with the Sunstone was that it was unreliable because the energy was running out anyway.
I still don't understand what you mean by the dreamstone thing with that example. The Masamune was possessed by whatever. I don't see how that makes dreamstone the teacher of magic Oo
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I mean that the Masamune (which was MADE out of Dreamstone) didn't react on command always. It did act on its on. Depending on the energies stored in it, I believe it could very well change humans. We've only seen behavior changes with it (unless there's some change in Radical Dreamers that I don't know about) but it opens up for speculation.
Why am I arguing? Cause its too sure with you guys that its the Frozen Flame when we really don't know. We know there was an evolution because of the Frozen Flame. But that doesn't neccessarily mean it was the Frozen Flame that gave human beings the power to use magic.
As it is, you are really good at arguing your point and I think mine is defeated for the moment.
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I mean that the Masamune (which was MADE out of Dreamstone) didn't react on command always. It did act on its on. Depending on the energies stored in it, I believe it could very well change humans. We've only seen behavior changes with it (unless there's some change in Radical Dreamers that I don't know about) but it opens up for speculation.
Why am I arguing? Cause its too sure with you guys that its the Frozen Flame when we really don't know. We know there was an evolution because of the Frozen Flame. But that doesn't neccessarily mean it was the Frozen Flame that gave human beings the power to use magic.
As it is, you are really good at arguing your point and I think mine is defeated for the moment.
Well with the Masamune, it doesn't do things by itself till it has that evil possessed soul in it in CC, I think.
The issue with the Frozen Flame is that using common logic, you will realise that it is it. There's nothing great ever about the Dreamstone in the whole story. The Frozen Flame is magical, it has magical powers and granted the humans the ability to do so. The Dreamstone was passed down simply and used to store energy. There's nothing special about the stone. And since it's an Earth thing, the humans wouldn't get it if it was special because the Earth (from the Dragon's point of view) despises the humans. And even the Dragonians didn't get to use magic, but only elements.
Thank, I'm flattered. Though, I like your debating too. You're better than most of the higher poster members. But heck, they just argue and don't give any evidence to why someone else is wrong and simply make you feel like giving up because they're to arrogant and what they say has to be true.