Chrono Compendium
Enhasa Halls - Chrono Series Analysis => Characters, Plot, and Themes => Topic started by: SilentMartyr on February 07, 2005, 03:00:08 pm
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Throughout my endeavors of playing CT I always questioned why Magus was weakened by the Masamune. I have not gotten an answer that is solid enough. There are some theories, but they always have holes that are too large to overlook. Here is what I can say is concrete about the whole thing;
- Since it affects Magus's magical defense, it has to do with the fact that he is an innate magic user.
- It is made of dreamstone, therefore most connections with Lavos are hard to be founded, since Dreamstone exsisted before Lavos came to Earth.
- It has no apparent effects on Queen Zeal, thus countering any arguement that it hinders all magic users.
- It drains power from the Mammon Machine, most likely implying that the swords purpose is to destroy Lavos.
So if anyone can strew together a concrete reason as to why it affects Magus, please do so. I hope this isn't anwered in a sentence in the first post, for that would annoy me beyond all other things.
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Well I would think that because the Dreamstone absorbs Lavos's power, everytime it touches Magus, it absorbs a little bit of his strength, draining his defenses. But if it doesnt affect Zeal, then I guess that doesnt work....hmmm strange.
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Interestingly enough, it also drains energy from the Mammon Machine. That should be fun to reconcile.
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Oh yea, haha forgot about that. Thanks RD, I'll add it to the list.
The best theory I can throw together is that Masa and Mune know that Magus is Janus, and they want him to not fight Lavos, knowing completely that he would get crushed if he fought Lavos by himself. But that would also assume that they know that he wouldn't get killed in the spar and that eventually he would team up with the right people to fight Lavos. Remeber that thier purpose is basically, to destroy Lavos. Its not much but is all that I've got.
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Perhaps Zeal is too powerful? Or, as she says when she's defeated, her power doesn't seem to work there, so perhaps the anti-mag defense of the Masamune is negated as well. Or maybe the Masamune working so well against Magus has to do with Frog's state of mind. I think that makes the most sense, as later, when powering up the Masamune, and other times when you talk to Masa & Mune, they state how it's not who has the sword, but how they use it. Mind over matter. Perhaps this is also why, when Magus uses the Masamune against Lavos, it doesn't work.
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I doubt that the knife Magus uses on Lavos can resemble the Masamune or even the ruby knife. It might have been made from dreamstone, but it didn't have that personal embodiment of Masa and Mune. That is why it failed in my opinion.
But with yor logic about Zeal, the sword should have worked after you beat the broken Mammon Machine. I am assuming her real powers are from the transformation.
Frog's state of mind, hmm that is interesting. But I can't shake that notion that the sword was made to destoy Lavos, not Magus. So why won't it work on Lavos, since Frog's state of mind is completly against Lavos after the sword is powered up. We might be onto something here, but I wanna make sure that it is concrete.
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Because even though Frog is against Lavos, he doesn't have the same state of mind when fighting Lavos as when he fights Magus. Frog doesn't hate Lavos, he rationally knows that Lavos will destroy the world and must be destroyed before he does so, but there is no personal hatred. Whereas, with Magus there is. Magus killed Frog's best friend that he looked up a lot to. So, there's a huge emotional difference between fighting the two... And the Masamune is based on people's emotions and feelings, not their convictions.
I also have another theory: The Masamune was designed by Melchior to destroy the Mammon Machine, not to destroy Lavos himself. It is potent against Lavos energy, but Lavos himself is too powerful for even the Masamune have any advantages against him. But the Masamune is potent against Magus and the Mammon Machine, because they use the Lavos energy, but are not the pure source, they only have a fraction of Lavos' power. And THAT the Masamune can withstand...
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So Frog's hatred for Magus enables the sword to actually work? Then why is there a legend that the sword will weaken Magus? Those two don't coinside very well, it would make sense if there wasn't a legend behind the sword. But because of the legend, it kinda negates your theory. Cyrus didn't have much hatered for Magus, it was more of a save the kingdom kind of mission. Not a revenge against someone who killed my best freind. I hope you see the difference I am trying to point out.
I was pretty sure that it was decided that Magus did not use Lavos's power for his magical abilities. So that scraps that theory, and plus using that logic the Queen should also have been affected by the sword.
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While I agree with you that Magus's power was not Lavos-fueled, I don't think that the Queen can be considered innate at the point that you fight her. What I mean is, yes, the Queen is an innate, but she is relying on Lavos's power, using it instead of her own or to enhance her own natural ability.
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While I agree with you that Magus's power was not Lavos-fueled, I don't think that the Queen can be considered innate at the point that you fight her. What I mean is, yes, the Queen is an innate, but she is relying on Lavos's power, using it instead of her own or to enhance her own natural ability.
Exactly, because of that the Masamune should have had the same effect as it did on Magus, based off that theory. That is why it doesn't work. Maybe I am misinterpreting what you said, please comment.
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Maybe it has to do with the fact that Magus can increase his Mag Def. Perhaps this magical ability is really what the Masamune is absorbing...It seems as though the Masamune, and likewise with all Dreamstone, absorbs focused (Lavos) energy. As is the case with the Mammon Machine and Magus because for one, he's summoning Lavos, and two, he has the ability to increase his magical defense (via magic). Also, can we really say for a fact that Magus doesn't have his magical ability from Lavos? He obviously knows of it's existence, and it's power, and he was even attempting to summon it. So why couldn't he have gained magic from it?
Also, in Zeal's transformed state, she is more directly drawing Lavos's energy, so perhaps that plays a part in it.
And really, we don't know about Cyrus. Perhaps he does have a personal agenda against Magus...Cyrus really was a quite undeveloped character in the game. He seemed to have a true love of the throne, like Frog would later have.
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So Frog's hatred for Magus enables the sword to actually work? Then why is there a legend that the sword will weaken Magus? Those two don't coinside very well, it would make sense if there wasn't a legend behind the sword. But because of the legend, it kinda negates your theory. Cyrus didn't have much hatered for Magus, it was more of a save the kingdom kind of mission. Not a revenge against someone who killed my best freind. I hope you see the difference I am trying to point out.
I was pretty sure that it was decided that Magus did not use Lavos's power for his magical abilities. So that scraps that theory, and plus using that logic the Queen should also have been affected by the sword.
Well i don`t remember this legend corectly but here is my theory:
There is legend about unbeatable mistic, Magus(well there wasn`t but sure there was rumors about his dark powers and things like that) so people need hope(without hope you are almost nothing) and someone starts legend that sword can weaken magus and kill him, that person ho started rumors/legend probably knew that there was something strange about that sword. And Cyrus sure didn`t had such agenda against magus as Frog had. And i don`t think that Cyrus was stronger than Frog at that scene were he faces magus with masamune
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Maybe it has to do with the fact that Magus can increase his Mag Def. Perhaps this magical ability is really what the Masamune is absorbing...It seems as though the Masamune, and likewise with all Dreamstone, absorbs focused (Lavos) energy. As is the case with the Mammon Machine and Magus because for one, he's summoning Lavos, and two, he has the ability to increase his magical defense (via magic). Also, can we really say for a fact that Magus doesn't have his magical ability from Lavos? He obviously knows of it's existence, and it's power, and he was even attempting to summon it. So why couldn't he have gained magic from it?
Also, in Zeal's transformed state, she is more directly drawing Lavos's energy, so perhaps that plays a part in it.
And really, we don't know about Cyrus. Perhaps he does have a personal agenda against Magus...Cyrus really was a quite undeveloped character in the game. He seemed to have a true love of the throne, like Frog would later have.
Well that I am sure of, it defintely has a tie in with his magic abilities. Maybe we are looking at this in the wrong way. We are trying to tie this in with Lavos somehow, maybe it ahs to do with the fact that Magus doesn't depend on Lavos for his magical abilities. I am certain he doesn't depend on Lavos, he still uses his magic even after Lavos is killed (remeber him floating in the Epoch ending?).
What I am proposing is that it has to do with the fact that he gets his magic from the planet, and not Lavos. Whatever his source of power is dreamstone has the ability to drain ones resistance towards magic because of it. I guess the only hurdle there is figuring out who or what is Magus's source of power for his magic.
Sarua I don't think the legend was ever given to us in a story form. just more like snippets from word of mouth. It would be really hard to speculate on how the legend was born and if it was based on someone knowing the truth or just guessing on blind hope.
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If Magus got his magical abilities from Lavos, as I proposed, why would he lose them when Lavos is defeated? I don't mean he constantly drains Lavos of magic, but, like with Spekkio, he could have used Lavos to unlock his magical potential.
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1) Dreamstone absorbs a freakish amount of Lavos energy
2) Perhaps Lavos energy refers to energy produced by Lavos, not the energy of Lavos, hm let me explain that... Example: Go find a sword that absorbs electricity. Now go find a person who surrounds themselves with this power and go kick their tail. Now go to a power plant and see how much damage that sword does. (not the best example, but it will do i guess)
3) Magus's life isnt that long, so a legend couldnt really exist, unless there was another legend about an unbeatable Mystic before Magus's arrival.
My odd thought: Perhaps Magus doesnt use Lavos energy at all, perhaps Lavos energy hurts him. The only other example of this I see is when Lavos drains him of his techniques at the Ocean Palace.
Maybe it has to do with the fact that Magus can increase his Mag Def.
Yea I like that idea. Perhaps the Masamune/Mammon Machine can absorb magic existing externally (in terms of the body). Not really absorb so much as slowly draw from (otherwise no magic attack could hurt M.Machine unless it overloaded it). Eh, people know what I mean.
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I've recently come to believe that Magus's weakness to the Masamune and the Mammon Machine's weakness to it are for different reasons.
Outside the Magic Cave...
Frog: Mine name is Glenn! Cyrus's hopes and dreams... And now the Masamune... Forthwith I shall slay Magus and restore honor!
After defeating Magus in his castle...
Magus: W.. what have you done to the Masamune...?
Magus seems to be quite shocked that the Masamune is hurting him so. The Masamune didn't seem to help Cyrus and Glenn 10 years earlier when Cyrus was killed. This implies that the Masamune was powered by Frog's will, otherwise it would have worked when wielded by Cyrus. This could be an example of the Dreamstone being utilized in a way not Lavos-related, since it was Frog's dream to defeat Magus and thus avenge Cyrus.
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no... it implies that the fully restored Masamune is somehow stronger that the aged version that Magus last encountered, which makes sense - the original Masamune was apparently fragile for a sword - it was very old.
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Just found further support of Frog's will powering the Masamune.
When laying Cyrus's spirit to rest, and the Masamune powers up...
Masa: Heh heh.
Mune: That's it! That was special!
Masa: Quite. I guess it means that a Hero's power comes from within.
Mune: Mucha metaphysical, man.
Masa: Like, MIND over matter, Mune!
Frog: My... mind?
Mune: Now for a yummy, full-on test!
Masa: It's thrasin' time!
Frog: 'Tis flowing with strength and vigor. Ahh! 'Tis the true identity of the Masamune!! Cyrus, I promise to fulfill your wishes! 'Tis a sad farewell! Onward, all!
Notice they are saying Frog's power with the Masamune comes from within him. Mind over matter. The true identity of the Masamune.
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Ok.. so the Masamune absorbs from Magus because of Frogs will. You have enough proof, assuming you arent looking at that conversation from the wrong angle. I guess that means that Frog has emotional tension with the Mammon Machine...
so yea, look at the conversation again
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I've recently come to believe that Magus's weakness to the Masamune and the Mammon Machine's weakness to it are for different reasons.
That's why I said that I don't think the Masamune is absorbing energy from the two for the same reasons.
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I am pretty sure the reason that Magus saw the sword being more powerful was because it was reforged with more dreamstone.
Now about that Non-Legend malarky
[Young Woman] Only the ancient sword, «Masamune,» can defeat him. And only the Hero can wield it!
[Young Man] Did you know? They say the mythical Masamune lies deep within the Denadoro mountains. But it's guarded by terrible beasts.
Frog: The legendary Masamune is required to fight Magus. And I've no right to wield it.
Hmm, while I was searching through the script for quotes to confrim the legend, I found something odd that I don't remeber happening in the game. There were found under battle messages 2.
$3WF9:Masamune absorbs energy...
This was found very deep into the section, right around a lot of Queen Zeal's second form attacks. I am going to check this out tonight, for it might let some insight to this mystery.
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I am pretty sure the reason that Magus saw the sword being more powerful was because it was reforged with more dreamstone.
Now about that Non-Legend malarky
[Young Woman] Only the ancient sword, «Masamune,» can defeat him. And only the Hero can wield it!
[Young Man] Did you know? They say the mythical Masamune lies deep within the Denadoro mountains. But it's guarded by terrible beasts.
Frog: The legendary Masamune is required to fight Magus. And I've no right to wield it.
So it says the Masamune is legendary, but it doesn't say a specific legend about it. Hmm.
True, the Masamune was old, but Cyrus was able to beat Masa & Mune to get the sword, so it's safe to say he was a good swordsman. I don't think that the fight between Cyrus and Glenn vs. Magus and Ozzie would have been a pushover for Magus and Ozzie. Which would mean that Cyrus would have hit Magus with the Masamune at least once before it broke. If Magus was affected by the Masamune just because it was made of Dreamstone, then he would've known it could do that already. Instead, after defeating him in his castle, he is suprised. The sword was made of Dreamstone before it broke and after it was fixed. That is why Frog is the reason the Masamune worked so well on Magus.
Now, for the case of the Mammon Machine, I think that the Masamune absorbing it's energy is an innate ability of the Dreamstone. Think of it like this: You take two car batteries, one fully charged and one much less charged. You hook them up to each other and the fully charged one will, over time, lose power to the less charged one, until they both contain the same amount of energy. I think this is a great comparison, since both the Masamune and the Mammon Machine are made of Dreamstone. It's a simple case of equilibrium. Magus is obviously not made of Dreamstone, hence, the Masamune drains his energy for a completely different reason, which I stated a few posts ago.
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So it says the Masamune is legendary, but it doesn't say a specific legend about it. Hmm.
True, the Masamune was old, but Cyrus was able to beat Masa & Mune to get the sword, so it's safe to say he was a good swordsman. I don't think that the fight between Cyrus and Glenn vs. Magus and Ozzie would have been a pushover for Magus and Ozzie. Which would mean that Cyrus would have hit Magus with the Masamune at least once before it broke. If Magus was affected by the Masamune just because it was made of Dreamstone, then he would've known it could do that already. Instead, after defeating him in his castle, he is suprised. The sword was made of Dreamstone before it broke and after it was fixed. That is why Frog is the reason the Masamune worked so well on Magus.
Okay, so why does it only work on Magus specifically? That is the real question that I am trying to figure out.
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So it says the Masamune is legendary, but it doesn't say a specific legend about it. Hmm.
True, the Masamune was old, but Cyrus was able to beat Masa & Mune to get the sword, so it's safe to say he was a good swordsman. I don't think that the fight between Cyrus and Glenn vs. Magus and Ozzie would have been a pushover for Magus and Ozzie. Which would mean that Cyrus would have hit Magus with the Masamune at least once before it broke. If Magus was affected by the Masamune just because it was made of Dreamstone, then he would've known it could do that already. Instead, after defeating him in his castle, he is suprised. The sword was made of Dreamstone before it broke and after it was fixed. That is why Frog is the reason the Masamune worked so well on Magus.
Okay, so why does it only work on Magus specifically? That is the real question that I am trying to figure out.
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Like Masa said--mind over matter. Hero's power comes from within. Frog wants to defeat Magus, he wants the sword to hurt Magus, so it does.
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But Frog wants to defeat Lavos, and it doesn't do anything there.
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Lavos isn't using a magical defence shield like Magus is. Plus Lavos's power is of a much larger scale than Magus's.
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I think it's possible, quite so, that Magus is simply being pompus when he says "what have you done to the Masamune". He can be saying this not because there is any actual change with the Masamune, but only because this time he lost to it's wielder.
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I think it's possible, quite so, that Magus is simply being pompus when he says "what have you done to the Masamune". He can be saying this not because there is any actual change with the Masamune, but only because this time he lost to it's wielder.
Possibly, but there are only two instances I can think of where things don't go Magus's way and he seems (to me, at least) genuinely suprised. The first is after defeating him in his castle, and the other is after he reveals himself in the Ocean Palace and his attack on Lavos proves futile.
Magus seems to be pompous very little in the game, but then again, depending on how you interpret it, almost everything he says in the game could be considered pompous.
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Alright, maybe that's not the exact word I was looking for, but at the very least he could be...I dunno...Covering up how badly he was beaten by simply tossing it all of as it being the fact that the Masamune was somehow more powerful that time...
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I checked out that code and it is for the fight with the Mammon Machine after Zeals first form. But what is interesting is that Frog gains life when you attack the Machine. I think it is the only time where that happens, can someone confirm that for me?
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Alright, maybe that's not the exact word I was looking for, but at the very least he could be...I dunno...Covering up how badly he was beaten by simply tossing it all of as it being the fact that the Masamune was somehow more powerful that time...
Or the Masamune could actually be stronger that time, and he meant what he said about it. Now we're going back and forth.
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1) Dreamstone absorbs a freakish amount of Lavos energy
Wouldn't it be fun to find a ratio of lbs of Dreamstone: Amount of Lavos energy?
2) Perhaps Lavos energy refers to energy produced by Lavos, not the energy of Lavos, hm let me explain that... Example: Go find a sword that absorbs electricity. Now go find a person who surrounds themselves with this power and go kick their tail. Now go to a power plant and see how much damage that sword does. (not the best example, but it will do i guess)
Sort of like a lightbulb. It's primary energy is light, but it also radiates heat.
3) Magus's life isnt that long, so a legend couldnt really exist, unless there was another legend about an unbeatable Mystic before Magus's arrival.
The Masamune is a magic sword. Those usually get a legend attached to them pretty quickly.
My odd thought: Perhaps Magus doesnt use Lavos energy at all, perhaps Lavos energy hurts him. The only other example of this I see is when Lavos drains him of his techniques at the Ocean Palace.
Maybe it has to do with the fact that Magus can increase his Mag Def.
Yea I like that idea. Perhaps the Masamune/Mammon Machine can absorb magic existing externally (in terms of the body). Not really absorb so much as slowly draw from (otherwise no magic attack could hurt M.Machine unless it overloaded it). Eh, people know what I mean.
So, it would absorb surplus energy that isn't anchored to a living entity?
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If Magus was affected by the Masamune just because it was made of Dreamstone, then he would've known it could do that already. Instead, after defeating him in his castle, he is suprised. The sword was made of Dreamstone before it broke and after it was fixed. That is why Frog is the reason the Masamune worked so well on Magus.
Thats not a very stable conclusion. "This happend...so it was Frog!!!!"
nah. Besides you seem to be underestimating Cyrus's will to slay Magus. The Masamune is a magical sword with magical properties, so it doesnt really matter who uses it, if they know what they are doing, they will gain great power.
New thought: Remeber the Amulet Schala gave to Janus? Assume it is made of Dreamstone. Now assume (from Schala's statement "it will protect you") that it is full of Lavos energy. Now assume that over time Magus absorbed this energy from the Amulet into his own body. Now part of his power is from Lavos. Allow me to go further:
1) The Masamune absorbs some of the Lavos Energy within him, thus weakening him.
2) At the Ocean Palace, Magus attacks Lavos, yet...nothing happens at all, he uses his best attack (where a red object, similar looking to the ruby knife is involved) and nothing happens.
3) Perhaps Lavos energy is involved in the attack, meaning it cant hurt Lavos.
4) Lavos absorbs all the "tainted" (Lavos energy affected) powers from Magus, leaving him with a few simple innate skills.
5) Lavos tainted skills never return because they are not innate. The only example from Magus that I can think of is Geyser.
This is, of course, assuming that the Amulet is made of Dreamstone, infused with Lavos energy, and involved at all.
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If Magus was affected by the Masamune just because it was made of Dreamstone, then he would've known it could do that already. Instead, after defeating him in his castle, he is suprised. The sword was made of Dreamstone before it broke and after it was fixed. That is why Frog is the reason the Masamune worked so well on Magus.
Thats not a very stable conclusion. "This happend...so it was Frog!!!!"
nah. Besides you seem to be underestimating Cyrus's will to slay Magus. The Masamune is a magical sword with magical properties, so it doesnt really matter who uses it, if they know what they are doing, they will gain great power.
Masa & Mune themselves say that the true power of the sword comes from the wielder. Frog's the wielder. I'd say that's a fact.
And what do the people of 600 AD know about the Masamune anyway? Do they know it's made of Dreamstone? No. Do they know it was made originally to take out the Mammon Machine and free the Enlightened Ones from Lavos? No. All they know about it is its name, and that it has powers. Not once in the game do you hear a townsperson, soldier, or anyone who mentions the Masamune say what it's actually for or what it can do. They just say "The legendary sword Masamune etc etc". How do we know Cyrus knew how to use the Masamune to its fullest? Frog accidentally unlocked its full power when laying Cyrus's spirit to rest. Even Masa and Mune didn't know how to use it to its fullest until then. If the beings who essentially are the sword don't know everything about it, then how can you just assume that Cyrus knows everything about it?
In the Magus fight, Frog could have been focusing on defeating Magus so much that he was using the power of the sword to weaken Magus's shield without even knowing he was doing it.
Just because a sword has magical properties doesn't mean the person using it knows what those properties are or how to use them.
Also, when Cyrus and Glenn encounter Magus and Ozzie, that happens at Denadoro, right? If that's the case, then Cyrus just got the sword and definitely wouldn't have had the time to figure out how to use it's power.
Finally, I didn't say anything close to "This happend...so it was Frog!!!!". I provided various quotes and comparisons and reasons from the game for why I believe what I stated. So instead of just saying
nah
how about you provide founded reasons from data in the game to argue against my point?
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Masa: Heh heh.
Mune: That's it! That was special!
Masa: Quite. I guess it means that a Hero's power comes from within.
Mune: Mucha metaphysical, man.
Masa: Like, MIND over matter, Mune!
Frog: My... mind?
Mune: Now for a yummy, full-on test!
Masa: It's thrasin' time!
Frog: 'Tis flowing with strength and vigor. Ahh! 'Tis the true identity of the Masamune!! Cyrus, I promise to fulfill your wishes! 'Tis a sad farewell! Onward, all!
A Hero's power comes from within. Ok.... that says nothing about the power of the sword coming from the wielder, you are twisting the words around. You assume that this conversation has something to do with the swords transformation and not the transformation within Frog, I didnt really catch on that you looked at it that way.
At the end of the conversation Masa and Mune power themselves up and recombine into the sword - - - THEN it is flowing with strength and vigor, the transformation of the sword occurred AFTER the conversation. I think you missed that.
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Masa: Heh heh.
Mune: That's it! That was special!
Masa: Quite. I guess it means that a Hero's power comes from within.
Mune: Mucha metaphysical, man.
Masa: Like, MIND over matter, Mune!
Frog: My... mind?
Mune: Now for a yummy, full-on test!
Masa: It's thrasin' time!
Frog: 'Tis flowing with strength and vigor. Ahh! 'Tis the true identity of the Masamune!! Cyrus, I promise to fulfill your wishes! 'Tis a sad farewell! Onward, all!
A Hero's power comes from within. Ok.... that says nothing about the power of the sword coming from the wielder, you are twisting the words around. You assume that this conversation has something to do with the swords transformation and not the transformation within Frog, I didnt really catch on that you looked at it that way.
At the end of the conversation Masa and Mune power themselves up and recombine into the sword - - - THEN it is flowing with strength and vigor, the transformation of the sword occurred AFTER the conversation. I think you missed that.
Yes, but Masa and Mune couldn't transform the sword without the transformation within Frog. Explanatory metaphor time--Masa and Mune needed Frog to unlock the door so they could open it.
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I think that most of you are very stuborn(sp?). razor`s edge has more then enought evidences from the game that masamune was hurting magus because Frog was using it and no, you can`t agre with that, mainly because your opinion is diferent and you can`t accept that it`s not right one.
But Frog wants to defeat Lavos, and it doesn't do anything there.
Can`t you see diference betwen magus and lavos in frog`s eyes? Oh ye Lavos will destroy world in witch Frog will never live and no one ho is precious to him will die because of that. Ofcourse he is hero so he fights Lavos. And here goes Magus ho has killed his best friend and techer in front of him(probably) and is treat to all guardia(ho knows how many precous people to Frog were killed due to magus) and even more he turned him into frog! I wonder which one you would hate more if you were in Frog`s place.
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Okay, Razor you are making sense to me now. I just put everything together in my head. I forgot that in the legend that only the Hero can weild the Masamune, so when Frog finshed up at Cyrus's grave he shows that he is the Hero.
The only question I have left is why was the legend directed at Magus? That is the only thing that doesn't make any sense to me.
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Okay, Razor you are making sense to me now. I just put everything together in my head. I forgot that in the legend that only the Hero can weild the Masamune, so when Frog finshed up at Cyrus's grave he shows that he is the Hero.
The only question I have left is why was the legend directed at Magus? That is the only thing that doesn't make any sense to me.
The thing about the legend is that we don't know what the legend actually says about the sword. We just know that there is a legend, but there isn't a single person in 600 AD who tells you what the legend actually is. But the thing about legend is that you follow legend back far enough and you'll eventually find some truth. So, if we follow back what we know about the Masamune, it was made in Zeal by Melchior, and its purpose was to destroy the Mammon Machine. So if some of the Zealians who survived the fall of Zeal knew about the Masamune, then knowledge of it could be handed down til' it became the legend that we hear of. But, like I said, we don't know what the legend actually is.
Why the legend would pertain to Magus, I don't know--maybe the legend says a powerful Mystic, or powerful wizard, and the people just assumed it meant Magus.
I'm gonna see if I can find the NPC quotes about the Masamune, I'll post them later tonight if I do.
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Perhaps the legend is connected not exactly with Magus, but with Lavos. I think this is why Magus expects the Masamune to help him defeat Lavos.
Or the Masamune could actually be stronger that time, and he meant what he said about it. Now we're going back and forth.
Well...We don't have to be, I wasn't saying that the interpretation that Magus actually meant it wasn't true. I was just stating an opposing and just as justifiable arguement to said interpretation.
New thought: Remeber the Amulet Schala gave to Janus? Assume it is made of Dreamstone.
(http://www.chronocompendium.com/wiki/images/8/8f/Amulet.png)
It...Doesn't really look like it's made of Dreamstone...and...that's a pretty big assumption regardless...
I think that most of you are very stuborn(sp?). razor`s edge has more then enought evidences from the game that masamune was hurting magus because Frog was using it and no, you can`t agre with that, mainly because your opinion is diferent and you can`t accept that it`s not right one.
I think you're misinterpreting arguements over theories (the only real way to advance upon said theories) as being some kind of wierd personal attacks...We're just shootin' the breeze here, guy...Workin' the kinks out, as they say...Also, I think you need to, like, spellcheck, or something...What are you, foreign? :lol:
. And here goes Magus ho has killed his best friend and techer in front of him(probably) and is treat to all guardia(ho knows how many precous people to Frog were killed due to magus) and even more he turned him into frog!
Well, even through the bad grammer, I still understand most of what you say, buck-o. Now, where do you get the teacher thing? Also, Magus killing who-knows-how-many is all assumption. We don't know if he actually killed anything or if there was just killing done in his name. All we know is that Magus is basically using the Mystics so that he can summon and thusly confront Lavos. I agree though that Frog has more personal ambitions when it comes to Magus rather than Lavos...So, no more hissy-fits. :P
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Perhaps the legend is connected not exactly with Magus, but with Lavos. I think this is why Magus expects the Masamune to help him defeat Lavos.
Possibly, because it wouldn't make sense for it to be literally connected to Magus. But if Magus thought the Masamune would help him against Lavos, then wouldn't he have taken the pieces of the Masamune after it broke? Of course, his plan for attacking Cyrus and Glenn could have been to get the Masamune in the first place, but after it broke, could've decided it would be useless broken.
If Magus wanted the Masamune to use against Lavos, though, then it would make sense to take the broken Masamune to try and find a way to use it, even though it is broke.
even through the bad grammer
The irony is killing me. It's spelled grammar. :D
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Also, I think you need to, like, spellcheck, or something...What are you, foreign? :lol:
Yes, i am from Lithuania(i doubt that you know where it is). I understand almost everything what you write but when it comes to write myself it`s a bit problematic :|
I think you're misinterpreting arguements over theories (the only real way to advance upon said theories) as being some kind of wierd personal attacks...We're just shootin' the breeze here, guy...Workin' the kinks out, as they say...
Well it`s analysis forum and here you just going back and forth. I would understand if such thread were in general forum, but imho such style doesn`t fit here.
Well, even through the bad grammer, I still understand most of what you say, buck-o. Now, where do you get the teacher thing? Also, Magus killing who-knows-how-many is all assumption. We don't know if he actually killed anything or if there was just killing done in his name. All we know is that Magus is basically using the Mystics so that he can summon and thusly confront Lavos. I agree though that Frog has more personal ambitions when it comes to Magus rather than Lavos...So, no more hissy-fits.
Hm i always thought that Cyrus was teacher to Frog but know that you asked i realyd don`t know from where i got that idea but it makes small diference.
Well Magus is leader of Mystics so it`s very logical to hate him for what Mystics did.
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Masa: Heh heh.
Mune: That's it! That was special!
Masa: Quite. I guess it means that a Hero's power comes from within.
Mune: Mucha metaphysical, man.
Masa: Like, MIND over matter, Mune!
Frog: My... mind?
Mune: Now for a yummy, full-on test!
Masa: It's thrasin' time!
Frog: 'Tis flowing with strength and vigor. Ahh! 'Tis the true identity of the Masamune!! Cyrus, I promise to fulfill your wishes! 'Tis a sad farewell! Onward, all!
A Hero's power comes from within. Ok.... that says nothing about the power of the sword coming from the wielder, you are twisting the words around. You assume that this conversation has something to do with the swords transformation and not the transformation within Frog, I didnt really catch on that you looked at it that way.
At the end of the conversation Masa and Mune power themselves up and recombine into the sword - - - THEN it is flowing with strength and vigor, the transformation of the sword occurred AFTER the conversation. I think you missed that.
Yes, but Masa and Mune couldn't transform the sword without the transformation within Frog. Explanatory metaphor time--Masa and Mune needed Frog to unlock the door so they could open it.
Ok, After reading over everything, I've come to accept your theory as the most likely explanation. So, instead of debating with you about it, I've decided to add to it.
In my opinion there is a special relationship between the Masamune and Frog - its almost as if the Masamune's condition represents Frog's feelings inside.
The Masamune is of normal power - Cyrus and Glenn fight Magus
The Masamune breaks, loses all power - Cyrus is killed, Glenn's dreams shattered, Glenn faces identity loss as he hides who he is from even his closest friends (Leene for example)
The Masamune is restored - Frog gains the courage to fight Magus again.
The Masamune powers up - Frog remembers who he is, who Cyrus is, and what he is fighting for.
The Masamune finds its true identity - Frog finds peace with Cyrus, there is no longer an identity split, there is no Frog - only Glenn
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I was just kidding about the spellcheck thingy sarua...I can read people's location tags...Lithuania? Isn't that in Europe or something? Who knows? What am I? A geography major or something? No. No, I am most certainly not. And yes, razor's edge, I'm not a spelling major either. :lol:
And, I dunno, sarua, I didn't see it as you were having problems with the back-and-forth, I thought you were saying things about how other people just wouldn't give in to the other side of the arguement...Perhaps I misread. Missread? Miss Red? Y'know what I mean.
And, Faulce, that all makes sense, but I was wondering then, where does the happenings of the Masamune in CC fit into that?
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I was just kidding about the spellcheck thingy sarua...I can read people's location tags...Lithuania? Isn't that in Europe or something? Who knows? What am I? A geography major or something? No. No, I am most certainly not. And yes, razor's edge, I'm not a spelling major either
You asked if i`m foreign so i answered. Yes Lithuania is in Europe.
And, I dunno, sarua, I didn't see it as you were having problems with the back-and-forth, I thought you were saying things about how other people just wouldn't give in to the other side of the arguement...Perhaps I misread. Missread? Miss Red? Y'know what I mean.
yes i know what you mean :) Well imho it`s same thing. You don`t agree with arguments which are good and you ask again same thing and again.
P.S. While using word "you" in my last sentence i wasn`t talking about you V_Translanka.
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And, Faulce, that all makes sense, but I was wondering then, where does the happenings of the Masamune in CC fit into that?
Perhaps Glenn got caught into a huge and unknown mess, like Crono (possibly) after Chrono Trigger. You know, something big like the events of Crimson Echoes, or some stuff only Kato could have thought about when he imagined the Fall of Guardia.
This is just a guess, but maybe this is what Lucca refers to in her letter to Kid :
Perhaps you already know... or perhaps you yourself are also now caught up in some historic crisis as a result of all this. But, anyway... A long time ago, we -- my friends and I, that is -- changed the future in order to save our planet from being devoured by Lavos, a monster from some unknown planet. We still feel proud of the role we played in saving our world, and in how we were so freely able to change the flow of time. But sometimes I think of the darker side of what we did...
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I, myself, think that Masa and Mune were able to keep the sword pure from Lavos. But when he became the TD, I think the the strain became too much for them.
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And, Faulce, that all makes sense, but I was wondering then, where does the happenings of the Masamune in CC fit into that?
I always thought that the Masamune in CC was the Masamune created in 2 seconds by the Mammon Machine in the Ocean Palace, but I just read somewhere else that because of Time Bastard, Frog's Masamune and the evil Masamune must be the same one. I'm not really sure how to answer this question, but let me give a few differences between the Masamune in CT and the Masamune in CC.
1) In CT, the Masamune is always in the same time period as Frog
2) In CC, Frog isnt even alive anymore.
3) In CT, Masa and Mune are awake - In CC, they are asleep.
4) So, The Masamune as we see it in CC lives in a world where Frog no longer exists and its masters sleep. The Masamune as we see it in CT lives in a world where Frog is always present and its masters awake.
5) The Masamune in CT lives in a world directly opposite of the Masamune in CC (in terms of its own experiences).
6) The Masamune found in CT is a typical broadsword with a nice blue glow.
7) The Masamune found in CC is not a typical sword at all - it doesnt even look like a broadsword anymore, and it is red in color.
Lets put this together: CT: Frog, awake, typical, blue.
CC: No Frog, asleep, not typical, red.
8 ) The Masamune as it is in CT is the direct opposite of the Masamune as it is found in CC in terms of appearence and experiences (as partially stated above).
ready?
9) The Masamune in CT represents the experiences/feelings of Glenn, who by the hands of Magus became like him - one with two identities.
10) If the Masamune in CT is the direct opposite of the one in CC in all ways except for the fact that it exists, then all attributes above pertaining to the appearence, experience, and 'reason' of the Masamune as it is in CT should be 'inverted' for the Masamune in CC.
11) Therefore, the Masamune in CC does NOT represent the experiences/feelings of Frog.
yay
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I think the key to the Masamune becoming corrupted doesn't deal with the power of the TD, but does involve the TD itself.
Masa and Mune were preventing the Lavos energy within the sword from being able to do anything, right? But after Lavos was destroyed, there would be no need to do that anymore, because with Lavos dead there's no one to use that energy to take over the sword, or so Masa and Mune thought; since they were containing this energy for over 12000 years, they decide to take a nap. But they didn't know about the TD. So now, the Lavos energy within the Masamune is free to wreak havoc due to the TD's influence, and Masa and Mune are asleep, and probably staying asleep because of the TD as well.
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What? What does the Masamune have to do with Lavos energy? How would the DoT have anything to do with anything if it doesn't even really exist? It's in the DBT, so it shouldn't effect much of anything...
Also, were Masa & Mune simply sleeping in CC? When Doreen comes out they speak about how they were 'caught' and Doreen accuses them of causing trouble...
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I think the key to the Masamune becoming corrupted doesn't deal with the power of the TD, but does involve the TD itself.
Masa and Mune were preventing the Lavos energy within the sword from being able to do anything, right? But after Lavos was destroyed, there would be no need to do that anymore, because with Lavos dead there's no one to use that energy to take over the sword, or so Masa and Mune thought; since they were containing this energy for over 12000 years, they decide to take a nap. But they didn't know about the TD. So now, the Lavos energy within the Masamune is free to wreak havoc due to the TD's influence, and Masa and Mune are asleep, and probably staying asleep because of the TD as well.
Well Queen Zeal was influenced by the power of Lavos - but wasnt controlled by him per say. After all, she did go to far with energy extraction via the Mammon Machine - but if Lavos was in control of her, that never would have happend. To say that Lavos energy or Lavos/Time Devourer is evil is a little ridiculous. From TD's point of view, a bunch of kids secretly influenced by the mastermind, Belthasar, are trying to kill him. yay points of view.
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I think the key to the Masamune becoming corrupted doesn't deal with the power of the TD, but does involve the TD itself.
Masa and Mune were preventing the Lavos energy within the sword from being able to do anything, right? But after Lavos was destroyed, there would be no need to do that anymore, because with Lavos dead there's no one to use that energy to take over the sword, or so Masa and Mune thought; since they were containing this energy for over 12000 years, they decide to take a nap. But they didn't know about the TD. So now, the Lavos energy within the Masamune is free to wreak havoc due to the TD's influence, and Masa and Mune are asleep, and probably staying asleep because of the TD as well.
Well Queen Zeal was influenced by the power of Lavos - but wasnt controlled by him per say. After all, she did go to far with energy extraction via the Mammon Machine - but if Lavos was in control of her, that never would have happend. To say that Lavos energy or Lavos/Time Devourer is evil is a little ridiculous. From TD's point of view, a bunch of kids secretly influenced by the mastermind, Belthasar, are trying to kill him. yay points of view.
Yeah, but, a bunch of 'kids' are what killed Lavos in the first place, before becoming the TD. Do you think he'd forget something like that?
And if the Masamune wasn't effected by evil from the TD, then why did it become evil? Masa and Mune got bored so decided to make good people kill their friends? I'd like to know exactly how you propose the sword turned evil then.
And about Doreen 'catching' them, she could have meant that she caught them sleeping on the job.
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Lavos/Lavos Energy/TD/ are not evil. The sword is not evil. Look at it from a neutral point of view (we are used to the view via Serge, if we had a view via the TD it would all be opposite). We have a problem here:
Is the sword comprised in some way of Masa and Mune? Or are they simply its masters?
If they are not directly of the swords composition, you could argue that they only control the Masamune - so while they are asleep they are not in control of it as they claim in the game. The Masamune is just a sword, it is, however, infused with Lavos energy. Therefore the Lavos-energy-infused Masamune is being its natural self, without anyone inhibiting it.
If they are directly related to the swords composition, they must be affected by the Lavos energy somehow. To say that they are free from it makes sense if you argue that Lavos energy only makes the sword powerful and does nothing in terms of influence. I disagree with this though. Queen Zeal saw the opportunity for absolute power, Radius saw the opportunity to best his ally and become number one. Frog saw the opportunity to slay Magus and win back the honor of his friend.
Lavos energy represents undying ambition and is neutral. However certain plot points make us think that the sword somehow becomes good or evil. Masa and Mune seem to be able to slightly alter the Ambition from a selfish form to a selfless form (hence Frog's ambition). This is based on their own judgments (or Melchiors judgments) on what is good or evil. I know many of us consider being selfish to be bad, but remember that Lavos energy, whether or not it represents undying ambition, is just energy - it cannot think. Without a medium to pass through (Masa and Mune) it will only give its user the will to reach their absolute potential. And yes, Doreen probably meant "catching them on the job"
The Lavos-energy-infused-Masamune never became evil, it became natural again.
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arnt u guys in your arugment about masamunebeing evil or not forgeting that in CC radius frequently mentions the enemity of the sword ie the guy who was killed by it radius when he killed him probally went mad with power and considering the look of the sword due to masa and mune sleeping the lavos energy in it began to radiate helping drive radius mad with power and since it wasent contained by masa and mune the phisical form of the masa mune was warped the fact that it kept the same look though the colour changed is probally because masa and mune couldent be bothered changng it back and it suted the new swallow form of the masamune
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Or perhaps, Lavos was what kept the sword balanced. Once he was destroyed the balance was destroyed and Masa and Mune fell into a deep sleep.
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What? What does the Masamune have to do with Lavos energy? How would the DoT have anything to do with anything if it doesn't even really exist? It's in the DBT, so it shouldn't effect much of anything...
Except the Dragon God. Explain that one.
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Lavos is a parasite--that alone does not make him evil, but he's more than that. Lavos is a sentient parasite. While Lavos is not evil from his point of view, from the point of view of all living things, sentient or not, on the planet Lavos inhabits, Lavos is evil. A parasite is an organism which nourishes itself at the detriment and usually death of the host. Since Lavos is sentient, that means he's a parasite by choice, at least partially.
What? What does the Masamune have to do with Lavos energy? How would the DoT have anything to do with anything if it doesn't even really exist? It's in the DBT, so it shouldn't effect much of anything...
Except the Dragon God. Explain that one.
Yeah, didn't it turn out that the Dragon God was being controlled by the TD? Then it's definately plausible that the TD affected the Masamune through the energy stored in it from before Lavos became the TD.
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arnt u guys in your arugment about masamunebeing evil or not forgeting that in CC radius frequently mentions the enemity of the sword ie the guy who was killed by it radius when he killed him probally went mad with power and considering the look of the sword due to masa and mune sleeping the lavos energy in it began to radiate helping drive radius mad with power and since it wasent contained by masa and mune the phisical form of the masa mune was warped the fact that it kept the same look though the colour changed is probally because masa and mune couldent be bothered changng it back and it suted the new swallow form of the masamune
Radius's view is skewed.
Lavos is a parasite--that alone does not make him evil, but he's more than that. Lavos is a sentient parasite. While Lavos is not evil from his point of view, from the point of view of all living things, sentient or not, on the planet Lavos inhabits, Lavos is evil. A parasite is an organism which nourishes itself at the detriment and usually death of the host. Since Lavos is sentient, that means he's a parasite by choice, at least partially.
Thats like saying its wrong to kill anything for food, even if its to survive, as long as you are sentient. Thats ridiculous - Lavos/TD only cares about its survival and the humans only care about their survival. Taking this from both the human and neutral point of view: The weapons the humans make are not "good" they are simply used for that reason. At the same time, Lavos energy is not "evil", it is simply used for that reason. Again this from a human and neutral point of view.
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arnt u guys in your arugment about masamunebeing evil or not forgeting that in CC radius frequently mentions the enemity of the sword ie the guy who was killed by it radius when he killed him probally went mad with power and considering the look of the sword due to masa and mune sleeping the lavos energy in it began to radiate helping drive radius mad with power and since it wasent contained by masa and mune the phisical form of the masa mune was warped the fact that it kept the same look though the colour changed is probally because masa and mune couldent be bothered changng it back and it suted the new swallow form of the masamune
Radius's view is skewed.
Lavos is a parasite--that alone does not make him evil, but he's more than that. Lavos is a sentient parasite. While Lavos is not evil from his point of view, from the point of view of all living things, sentient or not, on the planet Lavos inhabits, Lavos is evil. A parasite is an organism which nourishes itself at the detriment and usually death of the host. Since Lavos is sentient, that means he's a parasite by choice, at least partially.
Thats like saying its wrong to kill anything for food, even if its to survive, as long as you are sentient. Thats ridiculous - Lavos/TD only cares about its survival and the humans only care about their survival. Taking this from both the human and neutral point of view: The weapons the humans make are not "good" they are simply used for that reason. At the same time, Lavos energy is not "evil", it is simply used for that reason. Again this from a human and neutral point of view.
This is from an anything living that isn't Lavos point of view. Everything Lavos did isn't necessarily evil, until he bursts outta the ground and destroys Zeal, and again when he destroyed the world in 1999 AD. Since he's sentient, he could have chose to share a symbiotic relationship with the Zealians, where the Zealians have magic because of Lavos, and Lavos gets his DNA. There are tons of examples of this in nature. For example, there are many different types of bacteria living on your skin. They get their food from the air and you, and you are protected from other, harmful, bacteria by these bacteria.
But Lavos chose to destroy the world, twice. Therefore he is evil, from every point of view, save maybe his own.
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So humans also are evil, because Dragon God, dwarfs, demi-humans say so. Lavos is doing what he must do. Only TD may be true evil.
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Well, razor's edge, I guess you've never scratched your skin.
Zeal became too close to Lavos, and by that point, he no longer had any need for them to exist - he could always make more. Its just like how you scratch your skin when you have an itch - you kill many organisms, but you will get more eventually, so you dont even think of it, and if you do think of it, you dont care. Lavos's body IS the planet now, if anything replaceable on it bothers him, he will eliminate it if he so chooses. Again you only say he is evil because you see things from the human point of view.
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The planet is not Lavos's body. Let us assume for a moment that the planet is a living organism itself ala FF7, or better yet, that the planet is the Entity. That makes Lavos a parasite living inside the planet, and, as with symbiotic relationships between different species, what's bad for the host is bad for everything that lives on the host. This makes Lavos evil from the planet's point of view. And, whether or not one considers the planet and Entity the same, from the Entity's point of view it seems Lavos is evil as well. My point is, the majority of creatures and beings consider Lavos evil. Not just from humans' point of view.
And scratching one's skin is not needless destruction of creatures. Considering the size of the planet, I'd say an earthquake equates to the planet scratching an itch. While there is death of organisms in an earthquake, it's not intentional.
Lavos bursts out of the ground, which can not be considered his body, and 'Rains fire down from the heavens!' That is intentional destruction, not scratching an itch.
And, unless for some strange reason you don't consider the original 2300 AD to be a dead or dying planet, then Lavos is indeed a sentient, evil parasite.
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But Lavos is obviously deeply connected to the earth, so that things that effect the earth more than likely make their way down to Lavos's knowledge.
Also, I still don't see how/why the DoT would do anything with the Masamune. It seems rather far-fetched.
If anything, isn't it easier to believe that the person who stole the Masamune during the Fall is the perpetrator of the change? I mean, I've always thought that the Masamune ending up in the Divine Dragon Falls was a bit more than coincidental...I thought it was put there simply to set things in motion...At first I thought that Lynx wast to blame, but I there's something about him not being in existence yet...I'm not sure, what's the deal there? I think it's Lynx that did it so that those events involving Lynx and the Masamune (Dario's death and the sealing of the Sea) would occur. Either him, or perhaps it's all just more of whakky Belthasar planning.
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I agree with V_T, it wouldn't make any sense for the Time Devourer to control the Masamune. Making the Dragoons go bonkers and kill each other doesn't really seem to help or hinder the Time Devourer in the grand scheme of things. All it needed to do was get the Dragon Gods unsealed by FATE.
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But the TD couldn't free the dragons itself, it needed a way to destroy FATE. Controlling someone through the sword would seem like a good way to try and destroy FATE. I doubt the TD expected Serge & Co to do it for the TD.
Although, if the person who took the Masamune from Guardia is to blame, by proceeding to go around killing people and stuff, I suppose that could also have made the sword evil, especially if Masa and Mune were asleep. Of course, this would require that there is some overall definition of good and evil, for the Masamune to become the perversion of its former self that we see in CC to be the cause of one person.
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Lavos bursts out of the ground, which can not be considered his body, and 'Rains fire down from the heavens!' That is intentional destruction, not scratching an itch.
And, unless for some strange reason you don't consider the original 2300 AD to be a dead or dying planet, then Lavos is indeed a sentient, evil parasite.
Lavos needs to support himself, but by doing so I (as a human on earth) will be destroyed, so I choose to destroy Lavos. I chose the intentional destruction of another being - therefore I am evil.
I need to support myself by destroying Lavos, but by doing so Lavos will be destroyed, so Lavos chooses to destroy me. He chose the intentional destruction of another being - therefore he is evil.
yea - way to go razor's edge....
Lavos seeks the perfect evolution - so he must manipulate his subjects on earth for the better over time. If he just "let them go", they might destroy him or his offspring - he must take that into consideration, so he has to destroy the world, otherwise he is putting himself at risk. (and yes I know he put himself at risk by emerging - thus allowing Crono and co. to see his destruction - but he replicates on the surface because his children apparently cannot launch themselves to other planets from underground - so he had to emerge).
Crono and co. discover this, the do not want themselves and the world to be destroyed, so they do the same thing as Lavos - they seek a way to kill their enemy before their enemy kills them. Lavos will not have his offspring hindered, and Crono will not have the world destroyed. In the end its not really about good or evil, both are just doing what they think is best for themselves and their own kind. Therefore Lavos is not evil, unless you consider Crono evil.
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But the TD couldn't free the dragons itself, it needed a way to destroy FATE. Controlling someone through the sword would seem like a good way to try and destroy FATE. I doubt the TD expected Serge & Co to do it for the TD.
Although, if the person who took the Masamune from Guardia is to blame, by proceeding to go around killing people and stuff, I suppose that could also have made the sword evil, especially if Masa and Mune were asleep. Of course, this would require that there is some overall definition of good and evil, for the Masamune to become the perversion of its former self that we see in CC to be the cause of one person.
I never said it could free the Dragons itself. It would have been a pretty short game if it could :P
Maybe the reasoning behind the blood shed on the sword has something to do with it.
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Lavos needs to support himself, but by doing so I (as a human on earth) will be destroyed, so I choose to destroy Lavos. I chose the intentional destruction of another being - therefore I am evil.
I need to support myself by destroying Lavos, but by doing so Lavos will be destroyed, so Lavos chooses to destroy me. He chose the intentional destruction of another being - therefore he is evil.
yea - way to go razor's edge....
What part of destroying the world has to do with perfect evolution? Where is Lavos's need for the destruction of the world to protect himself? He has his perfect evolution before he destroys 1999 AD, so how about explaining why, exactly, that is needed for his survival?
While it's possible the humans were enough of a threat to him in 1999 AD that Lavos needed to destroy them for his own survival, you can't make that assumption, because we don't know nearly enough about that time period to be able to determine one way or the other.
But the TD couldn't free the dragons itself, it needed a way to destroy FATE. Controlling someone through the sword would seem like a good way to try and destroy FATE. I doubt the TD expected Serge & Co to do it for the TD.
Although, if the person who took the Masamune from Guardia is to blame, by proceeding to go around killing people and stuff, I suppose that could also have made the sword evil, especially if Masa and Mune were asleep. Of course, this would require that there is some overall definition of good and evil, for the Masamune to become the perversion of its former self that we see in CC to be the cause of one person.
I never said it could free the Dragons itself. It would have been a pretty short game if it could
Maybe the reasoning behind the blood shed on the sword has something to do with it.
I never said you said it could free the Dragons itself. I'm just saying I think it would try to influence anything it can in that dimension to try and get something to destroy FATE. I doubt the TD was just sitting there hoping for a haphazard group of heroes to show up and do it for him. :)
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Morality is an abstraction created by human society. This concept does not apply to Lavos, an alien, any more than it does to a predatory animal. Lavos never acted out malice, only to insure its survival and complete its reproductive cycle. Lavos needed to destroy the earth in order to reproduce.
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Morality is an abstraction created by human society. This concept does not apply to Lavos, an alien, any more than it does to a predatory animal. Lavos never acted out malice, only to insure its survival and complete its reproductive cycle. Lavos needed to destroy the earth in order to reproduce.
But that's only in a purely scientific universe, as in, there are no higher powers that shape the universe and set what good and evil is, such as gods.
CT has many indications that there are such higher powers. Spekkio, for one, states that he is the God of War. Another would be the Entity. There's a cathedral in Guardia, 600 AD. Crono's innate element is Heavenly. These imply a set good and evil.
The indications aren't limited to CT alone. CC has many such indications in the Elements. HolyLight, HolyHealing, Saints; on the darker side, HellSoul, HellBound, GrimReaper. There's also Pip's HeavenCalls or Hell'sFury, and Lynx's FeralCats.
My point: when gods and theology are involved, good and evil are more than just abstract human creations.
Also, since the Dragonians made the Elements, not the humans, this further indicates that higher powers exist in the CT/CC universe since both humans and reptites knew of them.
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Non-sentient kills a non-sentient.... not evil.
Non-sentient kills a sentient.... sucks a lot, but not evil.
Sentient kills a non-sentient.... not evil.
Sentient kills a sentient.... evil.
There are exceptions like self-defense and insanity, but the basic premise rings true. The only real question is whether Lavos is sentient or an animal acting on instincts.
As for the Masamune, I'm not quite sure what the debate is now. If good and evil can become tangible in the Chrono universe, the old sword is good, something happened, and the new sword became evil. Tangibility of evil can be seen in many works of fiction, like the one ring in the Lord of the Rings, which was clearly an embodiment of evil. I wouldn't put it past the Masamune either, especially existing in a world of dragons and magic.
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I have not seen proof in any way that Lavos is evil. He is merely surviving and following instincts. I have heard some arguments though.
Argument: He destroyed Zeal.
Rebuttal: Which was draining his life force, slowly, but surely. Even if it takes millions of years, eventually Lavos would've died. I think it's a perfectly natural survival instinct, to kill that which is killing you.
Argument: He tricked Zeal.
Rebuttal: No he didn't. Zeal found his power and drew her on conclusions.
Argument: 2300 AD
Rebuttal: Lavos erupted during an age that was far more advanced militarily than *any* other age. Considering that a small group of kids, using primitive weapons such as swords, scythes, crossbows, and fists--Aside from Lucca-- Is it then, too hard to assume that an entire civilization with even stronger weapons could take out Lavos? Again, perfectly acceptable survival strategy.
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According to the names of his attacks, Lavos would really be evil : Evil Emanation, Shadow Doom Blaze, Shadow Slay, Span Death, Crying Heavens, Dreamless, Evil Star. Only "Invading Light" doesn't sound evilish.
Anyway, the existence of the Frozen Flame shows that Lavos must have some conscience : the Frozen Flame is conscious, and it serves as a mediator between an user and Lavos (it would be hard to mediate anything if Lavos was a mere animal).
As part of the Devourer of Time, Lavos shows sadness, sorrow, despair and hate, so it prooves that he's conscious and has feelings (although negative ones).
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According to the names of his attacks, Lavos would really be evil : Evil Emanation, Shadow Doom Blaze, Shadow Slay, Span Death, Crying Heavens, Dreamless, Evil Star. Only "Invading Light" doesn't sound evilish.
Anyway, the existence of the Frozen Flame shows that Lavos must have some conscience : the Frozen Flame is conscious, and it serves as a mediator between an user and Lavos (it would be hard to mediate anything if Lavos was a mere animal).
As part of the Devourer of Time, Lavos shows sadness, sorrow, despair and hate, so it prooves that he's conscious and has feelings (although negative ones).
He is master of magic so he probably knows every spell and attack which can cause magical damage. From the game we can see that magus is strongest in magic, maybe it`s because he is using shadow magic which maybe is strongest of all magics and because this magic is believed to be evil it`s spell names are evilish. So if shadow is trongest wouldn`t it be logical for Lavos to use strongest magic?
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Magus's shadow spells don't necessarily sound evil, though-- Dark Bomb, Dark Mist, Black Hole, and Dark Matter. The last two are scientific terms even. Dark Bomb sounds a lot less evil than, say, Evil Emanation.
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According to the names of his attacks, Lavos would really be evil : Evil Emanation, Shadow Doom Blaze, Shadow Slay, Span Death, Crying Heavens, Dreamless, Evil Star. Only "Invading Light" doesn't sound evilish.
Anyway, the existence of the Frozen Flame shows that Lavos must have some conscience : the Frozen Flame is conscious, and it serves as a mediator between an user and Lavos (it would be hard to mediate anything if Lavos was a mere animal).
As part of the Devourer of Time, Lavos shows sadness, sorrow, despair and hate, so it prooves that he's conscious and has feelings (although negative ones).
Lavos can't talk. How do we know that those aren't the names Crono and co gave those attacks? They have a bias toward Lavos already.
Since Lavos doesn't exist anymore in CC, the Flame must be connected to the Time Devourer.
How do we know that the emotions of the Time Devourer are those of Lavos? In that state he is bonded to Schala, who lives in remorse, which is a negative emotion.
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Magus's shadow spells don't necessarily sound evil, though-- Dark Bomb, Dark Mist, Black Hole, and Dark Matter. The last two are scientific terms even. Dark Bomb sounds a lot less evil than, say, Evil Emanation.
If weak magician cast`s fire spell it would be called simple fire, but if stronger magician casts stronger fire spell it would be called hellfire or inferno. So second magician is evil? Imho same goes for Lavos attacks.
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Ah, don't be h8rs. Just because something is dark, it doesn't make it 'evil'. I mean, black people aren't evil, right? It's dark because it's Shadow and it's a bomb (or it's mist) because that's what it is. Neither are evil. I don't even think that spell names determine who is or isn't evil. It's the user that determines that.
It's odd to note though that Lavos's final form uses the ultimate water magic, Hexagon Mist (i believe it's called). I think that Lavos simply uses the best magics there is because he's all powerful. I don't think he relies on any one magic, as I said, he even uses wussy water magic :lol:
And another thing...Let's not make this a discussion about whether or not Lavos is evil...I'm pretty sure there's another thread for that...But, whatever, I guess...
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Yea we have strayed off topic a tad bit :)
So have we come to any conclusions so far?
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Yea we have strayed off topic a tad bit :)
So have we come to any conclusions so far?
Back on page 3 we had pretty much concluded that the Masamune affected Magus due to Frog's will. Then we drifted faaar off-topic when wondering how the workings of the Masamune of CC fit into all of it.
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That's right. But what do we make of the legend?
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Alright, I just went through and fought Lavos to test a few things:
1. When Lavos adopts the form of Magus, the Masamune also lowers his magic defense. I think this would probably detract a bit from the idea that Frog's will is influencing. I suppose you could infer that it possibly brings up painful memories from fighting a mimicked form of Magus, but at this point he's been travelling with Magus for a while, it seems sort of odd that this event would trigger it and nothing else.
2. Lavos MUST be speaking in some capacity. During the fight, you get the messages you did from fighting the Heckran like "Go ahead! Try and attack!". I doubt anyone in the party is saying it.
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Lavos is just mimicing(sp?) Magus, so all the same effects that work on Magus would have to work on Lavos.
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According to the names of his attacks, Lavos would really be evil : Evil Emanation, Shadow Doom Blaze, Shadow Slay, Span Death, Crying Heavens, Dreamless, Evil Star. Only "Invading Light" doesn't sound evilish.
Anyway, the existence of the Frozen Flame shows that Lavos must have some conscience : the Frozen Flame is conscious, and it serves as a mediator between an user and Lavos (it would be hard to mediate anything if Lavos was a mere animal).
As part of the Devourer of Time, Lavos shows sadness, sorrow, despair and hate, so it prooves that he's conscious and has feelings (although negative ones).
He is master of magic so he probably knows every spell and attack which can cause magical damage. From the game we can see that magus is strongest in magic, maybe it`s because he is using shadow magic which maybe is strongest of all magics and because this magic is believed to be evil it`s spell names are evilish. So if shadow is trongest wouldn`t it be logical for Lavos to use strongest magic?
Lavos isn't the master of any magic. He's just a leecher off the planet. My theory is that while he's sucking away at the Earths energy, he is also sucking the elements. In this case, he would have transfered the elements to the humans around 10,000bc if they came in contact with the frozen flame. These elements were stronger than the CC elements and were acctually magic. Hence, everything Lavos gave to the Zealians were the planets gifts without slow evolution.
The elements of CC are from Dinopolis which was pulled back like Chronopolis was.
Back to the Masamune.
I believe that the Masamune was turned evil... By Frog. Why? Look:
1)Frog was giving off hate emotions towards Magus, this could have been absorbed by the sword
2) The sword when attacking Magus could have been absorbing Magus' hate for Lavos and Frog, not to mention his own dark magic and feelings.
3) You'd think that a big evil hateful ghost that empowered the Masamune would leave behind a trail of evil feelings into the sword, especially if the hate feelings have build up over 400 years.
This is how I believe the sword came to become evil. The only counterbalance I see are these:
1) The sword only remained good until Frog died and the quest was over, and Frog made up with Magus at the North Cliff.
2) Frog kills Magus, Sword absorbs heaps of evil energy but since Masa and Mune are awake they are controlling the sword with Frogs good intentions?
It's even mentioned in CC that Masa and Mune were asleep while they shouldn't have been, and that Doreen was pis*ed because they forgot her when they fell asleep with the blade, so thats why they all joined together to make the Mastermune.
I'm sleepy now since its 12.26am and my brain hurts x.x
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Since CT was pre-Elements though, I never really thought of them as a real, viable source...I always figured it was Dreamstone that Lavos was absorbing, since all of the crazy whackiness between it absorbing Lavos and Lavos absorbing the earth and yadda yadda...It seems like Dreamstone is obviously a two-way street for power absorbtion (sp?).
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On the Lavos-mimicry of boss Magus--
Think of boss Magus's magic shield as a 'locked door'. So as a 'locked door', it would mean that the Masamune is the 'key' to unlock that 'door'. So when Lavos mimics boss Magus, Lavos mimics the 'locked door'. Now, if you have a 'locked door' on one side, and a copy of the 'locked door' on the other side, it would make sense that the 'key' would be able to unlock both 'doors'. Also consider that at this point in the game Frog is the master of the Masamune, so I don't think he'd need his anger to drain the boss Magus magic shield anymore. Like a kind of "I've done it before, I can do it again" kinda thing.
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(skips reading through all 6 pages of stuff).
"The sword embodies the dreams and (something something)"... whatever Masa/Mune said to you in the Ocean Palace. also, how it brings out the bad side in you in CC.
I've always understood that it affects Magus because Frog is so bent-up on avanging Cyrus' death, that the sword reflects that, naturally towards Magus.
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Yup, and if you'd stopped to read just a tad of those 6 pages...You would have read that mucho obvioso statement...One main thing people have stated to counter said statement though, has been the Masamune's effect on the Mammon Machine and also on Lavos.
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Hi, new here, I am quite amazed at this thread. My friends and I always knew the answer to this since we were kids and I am astounded you all are throwing up such contrived inventions*.
The answer is that Magus is protected by the amulet Schala gave him. The amulet is made of the same material as the mammon machine (this is said by someone in Zeal I believe). No brainer.
* ONE. One person in a buried post mentioned this, and was promptly ignored.
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No one knows what the amulet is made of. Only Schala's has been proven to be one made out of DreamStone, with later a Time egg placed into it.
And don't forget that the MasaMune is dreamstone aswell, so that kinda screws it up. Dreamstone vs dreamstone?
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No one knows what the amulet is made of. Only Schala's has been proven to be one made out of DreamStone, with later a Time egg placed into it.
OK, so they decided to put in that intricate cutscene where you see Janus receiving the amulet for no reason whatsoever. Why not a fancy cutscene to show Taban giving Lucca the sightscope, and Crono's mom giving him the headband, and King Guardia giving Marle the ribbon? Because the amulet is special!
And don't forget that the MasaMune is dreamstone aswell, so that kinda screws it up. Dreamstone vs dreamstone?
"OH MY GOSH our enemies are wearing steel armor, that makes our steel swords useless against them, we shall have to use iron swords instead!!!"
DUH the Masamune is dreamstone. THAT'S THE ENTIRE POINT!
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Hm.... so you think his strength then comes primarily from the dreamstone amulet? I mean, the whole battle kind of hinges on you lowering his magic defense with the Masamune and then nuking him back as hard as you possibly can with your own magic (at least that's what I remember).
But of all the explanations in this thread, the dreamstone amulet seems to be the best offer. I'm not really buying Frog's will in this matter because Frog's will waxes and wanes a lot throughout the game.
And call me crazy, but the SECOND time you fight Magus (if you so choose), the magic drain effect of the Masamune is gone. It's just a straight fight between you and the dark wizard (Off-Topic: Magus killing his own mom is greatness!).
And one would imagine that in that battle Frog would be furious and craving blood. So it seems then that the dreamstone theory is the strongest one.
Magus in the first battle seems to fight you in some kind of ritual format. I don't think he uses his scythe to battle you, just magic powers. And he occasionally bolsters his magic defense (I think). So perhaps he is turning to face you and uses the dreamstone in some special way to basically turn himself into a powerful magical conduit. But the Masamune has the unique ability to diminish or cancel those powers, and so you break his defense and the other team members lay it on thick.
The Masamune also reveals the entrance to Magus' lair. Perhaps another trick he performed using the amulet?
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Do you have the Masamune equipped at the second fight? I know by then you have gotten at least one upgrade from Masamune II, so if you don't reequip it then obviously wouldn't drain his power.
And that amulet theory doesn't make sense, why would something that prevents status effects allow for a drop in magic defense if the wielder is damaged by dreamstone?
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Well, I don't know. Just throwing the idea out there.
But then again, the amulet prevents status effects when you use it normally. The first battle with Magus is kind of special in that you need the masamune to lower his defense or else you won't really be able to do much to him (that's of course from a storyine perspective... gameplay wise you could conceivably beat him without the masamune, it would just be a pain in the neck i suppose).
Perhaps the amulet has different properties if he uses it in a deliberate manner in the battle? The second fight I don't think hitting him with Masamune lowers his defense because he's not even using the "energy field" or whatever it is he used last time to fight.
But granted, I don't know since I wasn't using masamune but some other sword that was currently "better."
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If no one has noticed, the amulet if plotline.
Janus: Schala!!
Schala: Oh, you're back Janus! Is something wrong?
Janus: The black wind...
Schala: You feel it too? Don't worry, it'll be alright. Now, hold onto this.
Janus: What is it?
Schala: It's a kind of amulet. If something should happen, it'll protect
you. I wish I could be with you always... But mother has other plans.
Janus: She's NOT our mother. She looks like a mother, but inside she has
changed.
Schala: ...... Still I can't... Janus, I'm sorry.
^
If you haven't noticed, Schala wants Janus to be protected so that's why she gave him an amulet. It is even stated in the game that only 1 amulet was ever made out of the "same red rock" as the mammon machine and ruby knife.
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And, as I bashed the Amulet being made of Dreamstone LAST time...
check out the Amulet HERE (http://www.chronocompendium.com/wiki/index.php?title=Amulet)
or, here's the pic itself...
(http://www.chronocompendium.com/images/wiki/8/8f/Amulet.png)
THAT's the Amulet...Doesn't look very dreamstone at all...It's just a charm that protects Magus from status effects...
Why was there a scene showing him getting it? Because it was dramatic fool! The same can be said with when Robo got the "Ribbon" from Atropos. Did the Ribbon do anything fantabulous? Not really, just upped some stats. But they made a whole scene for it! It must be speciol! Nope, just a clever bit of drama.
The giving of the Amulet showed Schala's protectiveness over Janus; it showed how close they were. It made Magus' plight that much more noble, in it's own twisted sort of way...It showed their relationship of older sister to younger brother...
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It is even stated in the game that only 1 amulet was ever made out of the "same red rock" as the mammon machine and ruby knife.
You might be mistaking with this quote I think, which is about the Pendant not the Amulet :
[Young Man]
Schala's pendant was made from the
same red rock as the Mammon
Machine.
When she chants, the pendant glows.
THAT's the Amulet...Doesn't look very dreamstone at all...It's just a charm that protects Magus from status effects...
Well, in fact, items forged from Dreamstone/Red Rock are often not red at all :
(http://www.chronocompendium.com/images/wiki/6/6e/Pendant.png) (http://www.chronocompendium.com/images/wiki/1/1b/Masamune.png) (http://www.chronocompendium.com/images/wiki/3/31/Masamune2.png) (http://www.chronocompendium.com/images/wiki/e/ec/Black_Omen_Mammon_Machine.png)
As far as I recall, only primitive or uncompleted items made with Dreamstone keep the red color (like the Dream equipments from Prehistory, and Melchior's Red Knife).
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Yeah, I was meaning something on the lines of that ^.^;
I'm guessing that anything that has had Lavos' energy added into it loses it's Red Dreamstone colour. This can give Magus' Amulet 2 options.
1) Magus' amulet is made out of dreamstone, charged and he was only hurt by the Masamune because he was around a gate that connected to Lavos (That means the Masamune should hurt Lavos cuz it is Dreamstone)
or
2) Magus' amulet is not Dreamstone but something like the Belthasar sealed door's that only open when Schala's pendant is used on it. (This works out because the Masamune is Dreamstone, if the amulet is something from the same metal as the sealed doors then the Masamune will have some kind of effect on it, or not)
Either way, my belief is that the amulet giving was pure drama to show how Schala knew that something bad was going to happen (black wind howling in that scene) so she decided to give him an amulet that would protect him.
BTW, what is the 2nd sword next to the thing that might be the masamune in your post Chrono'99?
Oh and on the note of Schala pendant, if it glows, i'd imagine it glowing red like in one of the Scenes with it. Maybe when it is used it's red, just like the scythe that Magus used against Lavos. It looked normal until it hit Lavos making it look red.
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I'm guessing that anything that has had Lavos' energy added into it loses it's Red Dreamstone colour. This can give Magus' Amulet 2 options.
It may be possible, but I believe Marle's Pendant was blue/golden since the beginning of the game though, even though it was discharged.
The 2 swords are the Masamune, but the "Masamune II" is how it's mean to be after the Cyrus sidequest (I took that from the site encyclopedia). In the PSX version, that Masamune II has a small green jewel on the hilt too.
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*100*
Yeah, damn, I knew there was a kink in that arguement...
Magus' amulet is made out of dreamstone, charged and he was only hurt by the Masamune because he was around a gate that connected to Lavos (That means the Masamune should hurt Lavos cuz it is Dreamstone)
I don't think this works because technically he's not really next to any gate at all...He's trying to summon Lavos, yes, but would a gate be involved in such a summoning at all? Besides the point, he never actually gets to because Crono & Co interrupt his summoning. And lastly because, the gate that we eventually see, was made by Lavos after the summoning failed because of the Crono & Co intervention.
I just don't see why the Amulet would be made of dreamstone when it's never said to be, but everything else made of dreamstone is...
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Just to correct myself on previous posts, Schala's pendant never had a timegg added into it. The Astral Amulet is the amulet that Lucca put a time egg into it, unless she acctually used Schala's pendant to do it, even though Lucca said that Schala gave her pendant to Kid so she would be out of harms way.
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Well, another thing to keep in mind is that the demonic Masamune of Chrono Cross is thought by some to be red because it is charged with Lavos/evil energy in general. I'm glad to see the Encyclopedia pictures coming to use. I'll buy that primitive theory:
(http://www.chronocompendium.com/images/wiki/f/f7/Ruby_Knife.png)
My argument against the Amulet being made of Dreamstone is simply that the Gurus obviously had to make her a new pendant to store energy with and use to open doors and whatnot. This suggests the original amulet was incapable of holding Lavos energy; the real thing seems to just be a battery.
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Yes, the Amulet is automatically special because it involves Schala. I mean really, it's just an amulet, just one of hundreds of items in the game. Really all the amulet does it "protect status". Quite a few items do that, including another item Magus gets, the Gloom Cape i believe. So the amulet is obsolete.
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Oh hey! I just noticed something about the Amulet that I never did before...And...I didn't really want to make a whole new topic just about this little blurb, so I'll mention it here since we're on the topic...
I was looking as a pic of Magus the other day (planning out the look of Kaeru in my Magness fanfic) when I noticed it!
(http://totallysquared.free.fr/ct/images/personnages/magus-p.gif)
This pic's a little better...
(http://www.tu-chemnitz.de/~woro/rpg/magus.jpg)
That damned thingy hanging from his side that I never knew what it was...I always thought it was just some wierd belt-thing...But then I remembered seeing it before!
(http://www.chronocompendium.com/images/wiki/8/8f/Amulet.png)
Wow, I thought, that's crazy! It looks a hell of a lot bigger in the pics of Magus, doesn't it?
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Yup it surprised me too, I always thought an amulet was supposed to be worn around the neck...
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It makes him seem cooler. Plus if he had it on his neck, his clock would either cover it or be ontop so people can destroy it or something.
Plus it seems to be fashionable like how people wear chains in their pockets :P
Also if he wore it around the neck, he'd look to noble and honorable, which he really kinda isn't >.> Even though I like Magus.
GOD WITH PICS LIKE THAT I WISH THERE WAS A CHRONO TRIGGER ANIME! CHRNO CRUSADE SUX >.>
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Ya learn something new everyday. I might have to start studying all of the pictures that are out there just to see if there is anything else that can be figured from them.
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I still don't understand that funky metal band thingy on his right leg though...What's up with that?
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That is kinda odd, I wonder what that could be?
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I still don't understand that funky metal band thingy on his right leg though...What's up with that?
I think it's also supposed to make him look fashionable. That's typically a Toriyama stuff anyway. Saiyan soldiers also wear those kind of bands in Dragon Ball :
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v167/flamestealer/d47ed800.jpg)
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Ah Raditz, shame we only saw him for the first few episodes.
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Janus: The black wind...
This makes me think even more so that Dalton does have some effect on the Rise of Porre; the black wind Janus and Schala refer to could very well be the evil that Lavos used to taint the queen (and Dalton indirectly), and Norris is the captain of the "Black Wind".. i dunno if there was supposed to be a connection, but it's too coincidental for there not to have been a connection (even if subconscious by the writers of the script)
And the amulet in the Magus picture, to me, seems to be hanging from his neck, but it's really long and just looks like it's hanging to the side of his waist
and is there any official reason why the character art of CT reflects the art of DBZ?
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Janus: The black wind...
This makes me think even more so that Dalton does have some effect on the Rise of Porre; the black wind Janus and Schala refer to could very well be the evil that Lavos used to taint the queen (and Dalton indirectly), and Norris is the captain of the "Black Wind".. i dunno if there was supposed to be a connection, but it's too coincidental for there not to have been a connection (even if subconscious by the writers of the script)
Well, I think 'Black Wind' can be taken as a pretty common form of expression. Likely they were thinking of it from CT, but I doubt they intend there to be any direct influence. This 'black wind' is not a thing, per say, it is just feeling. Sort of that chill one gets for no reason, or the feeling of darkness heroes get with prophecy in the old tales. 'but Luthien remained behind at the gates of Menegroth. A dark shadow fell upon her and it seemed to her that the sun had sickened and turned black'... a little quote from some High Fantasy. Very good stuff. But my point is, it's a similar sort of thing. It is a feeling of dread, a whisper of foreboding and foreshadowing prophecy of doom. Likely it is a common metaphor in the Chrono world for impending death, thus such a group as the Porre secret service chose it as their title. After all, what did those who assassinated the Archduke Ferdinand call themselves? The Black Hand or something like that? And that's real life! It's the game alluding to itself, but little more.
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Lavos didn't really 'taint' anyone...Zeal was just insane.
Also, the 'official explanation' is that Akira Toriyama, character designer for Chrono Trigger, also did all of the art for Dragonball and the beginning and ending runs of Dragonball Z. Akira underlings did the rest (similar to the anime cut-scenes in FFChronicles, also done by underlings).
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what a dream job... getting paid to have underlings to your job...
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Lavos didn't really 'taint' anyone...Zeal was just insane.
That might still be a matter for debate. I would say that the hints at power that the prospect of immortality presented was what drove her to her madness. Power, after all, does corrupt one, even those of surpassing nobility of mind. Look at MacBeth: the noble soldier through his over-vaulting ambition, and the suggesting words of three hags, slays his king, takes the crown, and proceeds to kill his best friend. And then the tragic hero is destroyed in his pride by his own deeds as the words of prophecy fall into dreadful place before his eyes. Power destroyed him. It is not the only destroyer of course - love destroyed Romeo, and hesitation Hamlet - but is the most sublime one. I would say that if the manipulations of Lavos were not direct, to the Queen like the One Ring of fabled lore, then it was simple the taste of power that grew to bitter madness in her mind.
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I had just heard that in more of the original text it wasn't hinted that Lavos had anything to do with her insanity...I dunno...Damn, we need that retranslation! :?
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the magical energy of Zeal (the kingdom, not just the queen) came from the Mammon Machine, which took energy from Lavos, right? (i don't remember since it's been a while since i've played CT)
if that's true, then i think the dark energy of Lavos is enough to 'taint'
EDIT: i forgot that this was the Magus thread, so i'll say it now
The masamune was forged from the Dreamstone, which existed before Lavos (the entity's version of the Frozen Flame?), and Magus' power originated from Lavos, so the Masamune (a sword from the entity) could weaken Magus' magic power, which was Lavos'. However, i think that the game mentions or hints at Magus' power's being much stronger than normal Zealians', and grew mainly after being away from the Mammon Machine and Lavos' magic, so it's possible that Frog's using the Masamune to weaken Magus' magic (which is required storyline-wise, right?) could've 'purified' Magus of Lavos' energy, thus making the Masamune not especially effective against Magus when you can fight him again
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But the Mammon Machine itself is also made of Dreamstone...The game makes it clear that Dreamstone absorbs Magical energy (of one kind or another). But it doesn't say that the effects of the energy transference are negative in any way besides when the Masamune absorbs Magus' Magical defense, but that was just like cause and effect really. Perhaps something similar happens to the Zealians because of the Mammon Machine? But I don't think it hinders their sanity at all...
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We know that the Masamune is the "evolution" or the red knife with Lavos energy. When Cyrus attacked Magus for the first time, Magus only purpose was to destroy Lavos, so he knew alot about Lavos and must have some protection agaist Lavos, so Lavos energy in the masamune not only didn't affected much Magus but shattered the sword.
When they went to destroy Magus they restored the Masamune using more Dreamstone, now think about this : If the mammon machine is made of Dreamstone and can absorb Lavos energy, then Dreastone must have some given attribute to absorb Lavos's energy. The red knife was made by Melchior, around 12 000 BC (I think), when Lavos was already on earth.
But the Dreamstone Crono and co. had was BEFORE Lavos coming and since Dreamstone has some attribute that changed when Lavos fell. Which make the Dreamstone that Crono and co. had got more powerful.
Now in 1000 AD magic doesn'tn exist, in 600 AD only mystics used magic (am I right here?) and magic didn't exist in 65 000 000 BC (ayla's time) so magic was certainly somewhat related to Lavos and Magus lived on floating isle and sleeping device all powered by the mammon machine.
Well I think it's pretty clear that (IMO) that the Masamune is a magic-absorbing sword in some way and why it didn't worked when Frog was 1 on 1 agaisnt Magus, may be that there was so much Magic around them (since the magic drained by the Mammon machine that was used for floating isle and stuff is now jsut send into the atmosphere without any purpose).
Glenn's feelings have a high role too in all this
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the magical energy of Zeal (the kingdom, not just the queen) came from the Mammon Machine, which took energy from Lavos, right? (i don't remember since it's been a while since i've played CT)
if that's true, then i think the dark energy of Lavos is enough to 'taint'
EDIT: i forgot that this was the Magus thread, so i'll say it now
The masamune was forged from the Dreamstone, which existed before Lavos (the entity's version of the Frozen Flame?), and Magus' power originated from Lavos, so the Masamune (a sword from the entity) could weaken Magus' magic power, which was Lavos'. However, i think that the game mentions or hints at Magus' power's being much stronger than normal Zealians', and grew mainly after being away from the Mammon Machine and Lavos' magic, so it's possible that Frog's using the Masamune to weaken Magus' magic (which is required storyline-wise, right?) could've 'purified' Magus of Lavos' energy, thus making the Masamune not especially effective against Magus when you can fight him again
Bolded: That doesn't make sense, how could Magus's power come from Lavos? Using that logic, the Masamune should have worked on Dalton, or the Queen, which it didn't. Magical power comes from the person themself, they just have to have the ability to use it, and knowledge of its exsistance.
Italics: The red knife was forged by Melchior, using Dreamstone and his dreams. After the red knife went into the Mammon Machine Lavos's power changed the knife into the Masamune. The entity had nothing to do with it.
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Inquiry
Why is the Masamune able to hurt Magus's magical defense?
Theories
Reflexive Power
Andrelvis, razor's edge, V Translanka
The Masamune is said to depend on the user, not its inherent strength as a sword. It also has a spiritually reflexive nature, evident in its corruption of users in Chrono Cross and its enhancement at Cyrus's grave. When Frog battled Magus, his spirit and many feelings sufficiently fortified it to do extra damage, as he was very motivated. The same mindset allowed Frog to split the Magic Cave with the empowered blade. Frog doesn't hate Lavos and other monsters; he rationally knows that Lavos will destroy the world and must be destroyed before he does so, but there is no personal hatred. Whereas, with Magus there is. Magus killed Frog's best friend. So, there's a huge emotional difference between fighting the two...And the Masamune is based on people's emotions and feelings, not their convictions. As dream beings, Masa and Mune are enriched by the potent desire and will of their wielder.
Magus: W.. what have you done to the Masamune...?
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Masa: Quite. I guess it means that a Hero's power comes from within.
Mune: Mucha metaphysical, man.
Masa: Like, MIND over matter, Mune!
Frog: My... mind?
Magus seems to be quite shocked that the Masamune is hurting him so. The Masamune didn't seem to help Cyrus and Glenn 10 years earlier when Cyrus was killed. This implies that the Masamune was powered by Frog's will, otherwise it would have worked when wielded by Cyrus. This could be an example of the Dreamstone being utilized in a way not Lavos-related, since it was Frog's dream to defeat Magus and thus avenge Cyrus.
The Hero's Medal (and later, the Shield and Prop Sword in Chrono Cross) also seem to grant psychosomatic powers (unless Cyrus actually imbues the wearer with spiritual fortitude). This means that in simply wearing and wielding these weapons, the user is much more confident and sober in battle.
This theory fails somewhat to take into account the legend surrounding the sword (that only it can defeat Magus), but given the blade's reflexive nature as evidenced in Chrono Cross, this may only be circumstancial.
Dreamstone / Magic Drain
V Translanka
Given Dreamstone's natural ability to conduct Lavos, and Magus's ability to up his magic defense in that battle, perhaps Magus was drawing on Lavos's emanations (who was near due to the summon ritual) to raise his defense, an effect diminished by the Masamune.
An adjunct of this theory proposes that the Masamune, due to its Dreamstone form, can naturally diminish all types of magic energy. This is evidenced in the Masamune II's description, "inflicts 200% damage to all magic enemies." Curiously enough, the sword doesn't actually do this in-game. It also should have a huge effect on Queen Zeal and Lavos, but nothing of the sort is observed.
Magus is obviously not made of Dreamstone, however, so this may be somewhat of a stretch. A third aspect of this theory suggests that Magus's amulet, given to him by Schala, is in fact made of Dreamstone, and this is the tool by which his power is drained.
Masa & Mune
SilentMartyr
The best theory I can throw together is that Masa and Mune know that Magus is Janus, and they want him to not fight Lavos, knowing completely that he would get crushed if he fought Lavos by himself. But that would also assume that they know that he wouldn't get killed in the spar and that eventually he would team up with the right people to fight Lavos. Remeber that thier purpose is basically, to destroy Lavos.
Misconceptions
The Masamune doesn't simply do
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Inquiry
Why does the Masamune absorb energy from the Mammon Machine?
Theories
Dreamstone Charge
razor's edge, V Translanka
Think of it like this: You take two car batteries, one fully charged and one much less charged. You hook them up to each other and the fully charged one will, over time, lose power to the less charged one, until they both contain the same amount of energy. I think this is a great comparison, since both the Masamune and the Mammon Machine are made of Dreamstone. It's a simple case of equilibrium. Magus is obviously not made of Dreamstone, hence, the Masamune drains his energy for a completely different reason.
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Inquiry
How did the Masamune become corrupted after Chrono Trigger?
Theories
Knightly Requirement
Faulce, ZeaLitY
Masa and Mune state that until 1020 A.D., they were asleep within the sword. In addition to this, they state at the Denadoro Mts. that only the strong of will can wield the blade. Perhaps, due to their sleeping, people with inferior moral fortitude and strength (contrast to Cyrus or Frog) used the sword, the result being its corruption. Frog had the necessary mettle to use the sword to slay Magus with soberness and purpose, while Radius and the others perhaps were overcome with ambition and could not restrain their desires to use the sword for selfish purposes. This does not take into account the apparent power of the evil Masamune to outwardly corrupt the wielder, however.
Reflexive Sleep
This draws on the Reflexive Power theory outlined at [[Masamune (Reaction to Magus)]]. Masa and Mune state that until 1020 A.D., they were asleep within the sword; the battle with Dario eventually woke them up. Now, considering that the Masamune is capable of expressing the will of its bearer and also absorbing Lavos energy (and perhaps other types by extension), perhaps the Masamune was stolen during the Fall of Guardia and used to commit horrible deeds. This imbued it with a negative energy that remained and also influenced the wielders of the blade from that point on. After all, the Masamune is seen in its original form stained with blood in 1005 A.D. in the PSX cutscene, and is grabbed by the man who slayed the last protector of Guardia. Another idea is that Frog fell to a negative fate after 600 A.D., and that the negative sentiments were etched into the sword in this manner.
Energy Block
Masa and Mune state that until 1020 A.D., they were asleep within the sword. Also, Dreamstone conducts the energy of Lavos. Perhaps while the Masamune existed, Masa and Mune consciously protected it from being negatively influenced by Lavos's energy (note that Lavos energy doesn't necessarily have any outwardly negative consequences). After Lavos was defeated, they went to sleep, feeling their job was done. However, they did not know about the Time Devourer, whose emanations were able to corrupt the blade. However, this theory requires that the Time Devourer still produced emanations comparable to Lavos's energy, and that these emanations could cross the boundary from the Darkness Beyond Time to the outside world.
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As to the Masamune's corruption, I can add another theory to that. First off, let's remember that the Chrono series is Japanese in origin. Being of Japanese descent, I can verify that in Japan, there is a theme about purity and keeping things pure to ward off evil. This applies to things like swords. In the Fuedal Era, it was believed that if you didn't clean blood off your sword, the sword would drink the blood and become demonic and evil. This could've been what happened to the Masamune, since it was soaked in blood in the PSX ending.
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Okay here is my theory on the subject. The Masamune was orignially the red knife. It absorbed Lavos's energy in the mammon machine because they were both made of dreamstone and became the masamune. Then it was stored on Denadoro mountain where people came to know it as a powerful sword. Then Magus comes and people become afraid of his power. They beleive that the power of the Masamune can stop him even though its really not the sword but the user. Then when frog finally gets the masamune its not the swords power but the power and resolve of frog to have vengence for Cyrus's death that allows the Masamune to hurt Magus. This explains all the problems. People try and say that its this huge complex theory when most likely (IMO) the legend developed because people heard that the Masamune was powerful, not knowing that it's not the sword but the user. They just got lucky and the user happened to be frog.
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Erm.
The question started from the fact that Masamune decreases Magus' magic defence and heals Frog when used against the Mammon Machine. It's Just A Legend doesn't explain that. :?
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i am more concerned with the whereabouts of how it got there . . . who do you think may hav placed it there? and why that mountain?
these questions bring up a lot of theories and what not, it's cool
i think Magus's defense decrease because yes, since whenever Schala used her powers to boost the mammon machine at the very end of the ocean Palalce disaster, she is always weakened
my question: is Magus the same blood line as Schala?
if so, then perhaps the energy drain of the material used in the Masamune and Mammon machine, which had an effect on Schala making her weak . . . also does the same to Magus
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Um, Magus is Schala's BROTHER.
and Schala is weakened when she uses her power because of the stress. The series tries to portray her as physically frail to fit the archetype of the Pure Maiden.
As for why Masamune is on that mountain in particular? Probably where it ended up when Zeal went A Splode.
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i remember something in CT about Janus's step sister so that kinda threw me off for a sec
forgot
Schala and Magus are obviously related, yes
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That was a mistranslation... they are blood relatives.
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i remember something in CT about Janus's step sister so that kinda threw me off for a sec
forgot
Schala and Magus are obviously related, yes
Maybe they meant Half Sister.
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it probably landed there and that just became sort of a "holy spot" where the masamune was.
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If you remember the scene where Cyrus was killed, it was right outside the cave where Crono and company found the piece of the Masamune. The masamune is on top of the mountain because that is where the sword was broken when Cyrus died.
The masamune was created when the red knife was flung into the Mammon Machine. What if Magus is weakened by the Masamune because of its connection with the Mammon Machine? If Schala was able to be so affected with interacting with the Mammon Machine, why shouldn't her little brother also be affected by a blade inadvertantly created by the same machine?
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exactly
i believe we are all beating a dead horse now
i think every1 has been tryin to say something like that :)
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Well,...
Schala is the arbiter, and that is her only connection with the Mammon Machine itself. The Mammon Machine is simply the device that extracts the energy from the Frozen Flame, and only Schala can awaken it so that's why she has to be around it.
Now, Magus' weakness wouldn't be connected totally to the Mammon Machine, but more to the thing that it's made of. Dreamstone. Dreamstone absorbs and amplifies magic energy out, so if each hit to Magus drained his energy a bit, that would kind of make sence.
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I think it doesn't weak Magus him, BUT his magic barrier he uses, because he doesn't lose any Mag.Defense in his "Dark Matter" fighting cycle(I think).
And still, His Mag.Def. is ONLY drained for the next attack (important in a LL-Game btw.), so the barrier recovers pretty fast or(more likely) he uses different kind of barriers(for each Magic) which are always recasted as counter attack.
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wait, changin subject real quick
if this has relevance, why was Magus's powers drained when he attacked Lavos as soon as he revieled himself as the prophet?
was he in contact with that material?
jus wondering
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It was weird, his sythe glowed red, like dreamstone.
But yeah, when he hit Lavos, he didn't do any damage, and Lavos instead drained some of his energy in that attack.
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now this all makes sense
it seems as though those factors all have a distinct commonality
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Magus's attack with the red thing and Lavos's drain attack have no correlation. I would assume that Lavos would have done the same if Magus had waited to attack.
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Magus's attack with the red thing and Lavos's drain attack have no correlation. I would assume that Lavos would have done the same if Magus had waited to attack.
Lavos was not particularly threatened, and was just going to blow them to smitherines, except for Schala (who is the arbiter) and Queen Zeal is obviously riding on his back.
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Don't know about blowing them all... Zeal certainly crashed, many Zealians surely perished, but the fact still stands the Ocean Palace remained intact. Meaning he didn't really care. Like Q.Zeal said: 'You are mere insects to Lavos!'. Basically, live or die, he doesn't care, he just wants DNA.
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I think that in the Ocean Palace his goal was just to put an end to whatever was leeching his power. Beyond that, I don't think he really cared.
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Uhm Lavos does not care about a bunch of losers as long as they give him DNA... all he cares for is DNA and once he has enuff he can have fun damning everyone.
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Lavos doesn't care about having his power leeched, he cares about having his nap disturbed. I'm not sure, but after sleeping for millions of years, having been disturbed must REALLY suck. He got angry and damned the floaty place as a way of saying 'Let me sleep, assholes', and got back to his beauty sleep.
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Nah, he was upset because Zeal was draining a significant amount of energy from him.
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Nah, he was upset because Zeal was draining a significant amount of energy from him.
Yet he let Queen Zeal live, shares some of his power with her and lets his power be used for the Black Omen and other stuff..
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Nah, he was upset because Zeal was draining a significant amount of energy from him.
If it was signifiacnt Lavos would be weaker at the Ocean palace fight, when in fact it is stronger.
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Perhaps the energy hadn't yet been drained, but Lavos realized how dangerous the rate at which the power was being drained actually was.
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I think he destroyed Zeal in part of an automatic reaction to having been prematurely awakened. Perhaps he didn't actually mean to destroy Zeal yet, but when he was awakened an automatic reaction was initiated to destroy Zeal. It seems that post Zeal and post day of Lavos survivor numbers are pretty similar, just a handful of people after Zeal and only a few people from each dome (they could reproduce some after 300 years, hence more peopl in the domes). Lavos then saw that because he didn't go completely into armegeddon mode and didn't destroy everything that the planet could have time to recover before his preselected time came up. Plus the fact that he might not have had enough energy stored up to make his spawn.
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You know maybe it was just a big yawn, "stop annoying me you dumass" thing. You know you are forced up after a wonderful 10 hours (in my case a nice 6 hours max) and you go "omg shut up, just another 5 mins." You sleep actually for another 20 mins. And then wake up. Except with Lavos everything is magnified a lot... 65 MY = 10 hours, 14000 years = 20 mins, yawn = damnation of a major civilization... but still general idea preserved...
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wow that's kool!