Chrono Compendium
Enhasa Halls - Chrono Series Analysis => Magic, Elements, and Technology => Topic started by: Drumguy074 on December 10, 2003, 04:48:03 am
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Isn't it also possible that mystics are the result of genetic manipulations by Lavos? Lavos could have actually used the reptites as a blueprint of sorts, which might explain why the mystics are so eager to fight the human kingdom of Guardia.
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I believe mystics are somehow a mutation of elighted ones and animals.
They exist since 12000BC.
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Yes, CC refers to it. In Fort Dragonia, first and foremost. But truly...who would take the word of a dragon? They hate humans, so I really don't think that their interpretation of events can be taken as truth.
Secondly, maybe that wasn't the best way to begin an argument, granted. But I was merely commenting on the fact that we cannot use a given as what happened. Actually, gravity is far more proven than evolution is. We see gravity, feel it, measure it, etc. It must be noted, however, that the only empirical evidence that might back up evolution is scattered fossils. Ever notice how they have a hundred of one type of creature, a hundred of another, but when they say one developed into another, they have not a fossil to show for the links in between. This, and the dilemma of irreducable complexity. Don't get me wrong; I'm not against science theories. I'm an engineering student after all; my studies revolve around science. But if Darwin himself didn't fully believe his theory (having said that if there was anything that slightly disproved it, it wouldn't work), I recommend caution in applying it until it does have more proof to back it up. As of yet, it does not have the kind of evidence that warrants it being taught in the way that it is.
Now, in terms of the Chrono universe...when does it explicitly say that it works on the basis of evolution? Granted it says so on the walls of Fort Dragonia...but that's a lie anyway. We know from CT that there were humans with advanced mental thinking skills (Ayla), 65,000,000BC...not 3,000,000BC as that mural says. That is Dragon propoganda; human intelligence had nothing to do with either Lavos or the Frozen Flame. Magic and emotion, according to the library in Zeal in CT, was born of the Dreamstone found by man's ancestors. We can see from Ayla's time that the Dreamstone existed well before Lavos ever arrived, and the victory of humanity over the reptites was achieved before Lavos' arrival.
But anyway, all of this aside, I am not looking at CT/CC from a science fiction perspective, which I think most people usually do, but from a fantasy perspective. The Mystics had a big enough army of their own, I think. Sure, we only see a few dozen sprites, but such are the limitations of a game. If I were to extrapolate the feeling I get of the game, I would think that the Mystic armies were 20,000 strong, and Guardia had a like number to match in their war. Just as I think Zeal must have had a 1,000,000+ population. I think it could be said that they are just from the East, and that is that. It does not require further explanation. They are simply sentient races apart from either the Reptites or Man.
Finally in regards to evolution being guided by Lavos...he WAS taking all of the DNA of the world, but I never remember it being said that he was guiding the development of the planet. Rather, he was bio-engineering a super-creature based on all of the world's creatures DNA.
I...no.
The Chrono universe is explicitly based on evolution. Ever beaten CT? Or at the very least made it to the second half of the final battle? Ever done so with, say, Lucca or Robo in your party? I think one of them specifically says something about evolution. Granted, this is only the interpretation of individuals, but do not forget that they are fictional individuals, and therefore incapable of actual thought. The creators of the game had them say those words (and put the Dragonian stuff in CC) for a reason. Obviously evolution in the Chrono universe is intended outright.
Regardless of your opinions on evolution in the real world (and yes, start a thread in GenDisc if you want to debate this, by all means), don't argue against evolution in the context of a fictional game that follows a world where Darwinism clearly applies. It's counterproductive.
As for your argument that we shouldn't use what we're simply given...It's a game. We have nothing but that which the creators of the game give us. Our goal to analyze the series and hopefully make it deeper than what it is now cannot be realized if we don't first use the basis of the original material. This argument too is counterproductive.
Guardian_of_Ages, you need to abandon your opinions about the real world and embrace what's in the games. Once you have done that, feel free to come back here and participate in what I hope are enlightening debates here on our site.
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Granted it says so on the walls of Fort Dragonia...but that's a lie anyway.
So because the dragons hate the humans anything they say can be disregared as a lie? What do the dragons have to gain by making humans think that the process of evolution occured on their world, if in fact, it didn't? Seems inconsequential.
...according to the library in Zeal in CT, was born of the Dreamstone found by man's ancestors.
Man's ancestors. Not men. Pre-men. I don't think it's too much of a leap to say that this implies evolution taking place.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'll assume that 20,000 strong Mystic army refers to the Medinan army. When they came from "The East" was it a mass migration, or a colonization? I think it is important to understanding why the Mystics went to war under the leadership of a human in a war against humans.
he WAS taking all of the DNA of the world, but I never remember it being said that he was guiding the development of the planet.
In the final confrontation with Lavos, Frog has this to say:
Reared like farm animals, our lives have been for naught.
and
We haveth our own wills!
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Secondly, maybe that wasn't the best way to begin an argument, granted. But I was merely commenting on the fact that we cannot use a given as what happened. Actually, gravity is far more proven than evolution is. We see gravity, feel it, measure it, etc. It must be noted, however, that the only empirical evidence that might back up evolution is scattered fossils. Ever notice how they have a hundred of one type of creature, a hundred of another, but when they say one developed into another, they have not a fossil to show for the links in between. This, and the dilemma of irreducable complexity. Don't get me wrong; I'm not against science theories. I'm an engineering student after all; my studies revolve around science. But if Darwin himself didn't fully believe his theory (having said that if there was anything that slightly disproved it, it wouldn't work), I recommend caution in applying it until it does have more proof to back it up. As of yet, it does not have the kind of evidence that warrants it being taught in the way that it is.
In this thread, the discussion should be limited to evolution as it applies to the Chrono series. As I stated earlier, I would be happy to debate the validity of evolution in the general discussion forum, but this is like trying to disprove the existence of time travel in Chrono Trigger using general relativity. The creators of the Chrono series can use whatever natural laws they wish, real or not.
Now, in terms of the Chrono universe...when does it explicitly say that it works on the basis of evolution? Granted it says so on the walls of Fort Dragonia...but that's a lie anyway. We know from CT that there were humans with advanced mental thinking skills (Ayla), 65,000,000BC...not 3,000,000BC as that mural says.
True, humans remain relatively unchanged between 65*10^6 BC and the present day, but during that time many new species arise with new characteristics and abilities. There is no need for a fossil record, the travelers can witness the progressive changes to species over time firsthand.
That is Dragon propoganda; human intelligence had nothing to do with either Lavos or the Frozen Flame. Magic and emotion, according to the library in Zeal in CT, was born of the Dreamstone found by man's ancestors. We can see from Ayla's time that the Dreamstone existed well before Lavos ever arrived, and the victory of humanity over the reptites was achieved before Lavos' arrival.
It all began aeons ago, when man's ancestors picked up a shard of a strange red rock... Its power, which was beyond human comprehension, cultivated dreams... In turn, love and hate were born... Only time will see how it all ends.
Dreamstone was responsible for human (and perhaps Reptite) sentience, but there is no mention of it causing magical ability.
Finally in regards to evolution being guided by Lavos...he WAS taking all of the DNA of the world, but I never remember it being said that he was guiding the development of the planet. Rather, he was bio-engineering a super-creature based on all of the world's creatures DNA.
Look no further.
Robo: Amazing...
It houses all the DNA of every
creature that ever lived...!
Marle: It's...humanoid... It seems like it has collected all of
the vitality from the creatures who
have lived on this planet.
Lucca: Now I understand... It lives on a planet for as long as
possible, stealing away the most vital
resources... It combined the DNA it found here
with its own, and gave birth to those
creatures up on Death Peak. Eventually the young must migrate to
other planets...to repeat the cycle...
Robo: This was Lavos's goal...! Using the DNA of every organism... And achieving the ultimate in evolution!
Frog: This be evil! Indeed! This thing possesseth the
vitality of all living creatures... It hath harvested DNA from animals,
only to further its own evolution!
And whilst sleeping, to boot!
Magus: ...... So...since the dawn of time, it has
slept underground, controlling
evolution on this world for his own
purpose...
Ayla: This smell like Ayla's land!
Reptites, Ptero, Nizbel. Ayla, and
Smell like all people I know!!... Smell of all living things!!
Marle: Are you saying IT'S the
reason we're all here?
Magus: We were created only to be
harvested.
All people... ...and all living things...
Lucca: Grown like farm animals,
waiting to be slaughtered... All of our history...
our art and science...
All to meet the needs of that...
beast...
Frog: It...is too much to bear... We
have been reared like animals...!
Our lives hath been for naught...
Lavos did not passively collect DNA samples from already existing life forms. The travelers clearly state that Lavos was responsible for the development of all living things. Lavos changed humans from primitive savages into the dominant life form on the planet, created new species, and doomed others to extinction.
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Keep in mind that an entire room in Chronopolis is dedicated to the evolution of the human brain.
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Ah, sorry guys. Don't take what I say quite so seriously. My style lends itself to sounding serious, even in forum posts, but I'm not quite that ardent about it. I merely try to reconcile my liking of the Chrono universe with my love of high fantasy, which I hold in very high regard. Not quite the direction most Chrono fans go, I realize, and makes me a little different. As a result it is very difficult for me to think of Chrono things in terms of evolution and such any more, though I realize fully that having that as a basis was the original intent of the game makers. I can only defend myself by saying that most of the theories are not what they had intended either, and is simply a personal interpretation of the events.
Regardless, I still think, evolution or not, that the Dragons do lie. That was their version of history, and is tainted by their hatred of humans. I did not take this as the sole basis for that comment, however. What I thought was that Ayla seemed quite intelligent, being only less intelligent by being raised in an unadvanced age; had she been brought up in the future, she would have been no less intelligent than Crono. At the very least her mind is far more advanced than the Dragons would account to humans in their murals. So if humans do evolve, it is natural, and they are simply misunderstood by the Dragons. Not unexpected, however. The humans base their technology in skill, the Dragons in the power of the earth. This creates a natural enimity between the two races. Remember, the Reptites and humans were at war already long before Lavos arrived. I don't remember Azala's appraisal of humankind all that friendly. Naturally I don't expect her descendents, from a city ripped from its own dimension only to find all of its race surplanted by their ancient enemies, to take to kindly to these "apes". On this basis, I would say that the Dragons lie. Humanity is every bit as natural as Dragons. It was not till the experimentation with the Frozen Flame in Chronopolis that they fell under the thrall of Lavos.
Now, in regards to the final battle, and all the comments the characters make...I never thought any of those referred to evolution, even the first time I played the game. He indeed took all the DNA...that was his purpose in his long parasitic sleep, was it not? To gain power and absorb the essence of all the beings? When Frog says that they have been raised as "animals for the slaughter", or whatever he says, why does that mean that Lavos has guided evolution? It simply means that their only purpose in the last 65,000,000 years, pending the destruction of the earth, was to provide the neccessary DNA. If evolution has occurred, it has been natural, and Lavos has only watched by with an evil eye on lordship over the earth, biding his time.
Also, I do think that the dreamstone gave birth to magic. The red knife, after all, is magical. Is it not then feasable that it was from this hallowed stone from which both the greatest sword and the Mammon machine were forged that magic came to humanity?
But here is a theory that combines both what the Dragons say and what is said in Zeal in the library. Is it not possible that the source for the evolution of the human mind in CT was not of the Frozen Flame, but rather the Dreamstone? It does say in Zeal that it was from this that hopes and dreams, which are higher levels of thought, are born. This seems to confirm, along with the fact that Ayla too has hopes and dreams, that it was not the Frozen Flame, but rather the Dreamstone that hyper-evolved humanity. But the Dreamstone is a natural part of the earth, so this is not, as the Dragons would say, an unnatural evolution. It is the guiding force of fate, which could in the Chrono universe be construed as the will of the planet.
In this respect, I am unsure where Mystics fall. They are not Reptites, that is sure. Maybe the Heckran is, but certainly the gargoyles and trolls are not. They could not have evolved from the Reptites either; this would counter one of the basic premises of evolution: survival of the fittest. Were the Mystics one race, this may have been possible. But they are no less than a dozen races, so evolution is not the key to their origin. They would have killed each other off for supremacy. What remains then? Perhaps they are simply a race born of magic, or even of the will of the earth. Just as in Greek mythology, where Gaia gives birth to the Giants to storm Olympus, perhaps their origin lies in such magical realms.
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The most accepted theory now is that Lavos created the Mystics through manipulation of normal animals and the infusing of the Magic Trait; later, these magically abilitated animals were adapted for work and guarding by the civilization of Zeal.
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wait a sec... assuming that humans gained their intelligence from dreamstone, why not the mystics too? While i'm not sure where they would get the dreamstone if humans evolved that way, why not them too? Once again, this is assuming they did evolve from that, which is not quite proven. The Reptites were clearly capable of higher thought, even if most of their thoughts were focused on killing the humans. They also were clearly the elder race, having seen humans come from apes to mammals of higher thought. Can it be thought that all races achieved higher order thinking from dreamstone? Also, i believe it was guardian_of_ages that pointed out that the mystics aren't exactly a race so much as a motley collection of many different races. That is pretty hard to explain but i suppose one could guess that the many different races formed a strong alliance, probably to fight the rising threat of humans. I personally believe that lavos wasn't the catalyst of evolution, but merely chose what path it may or may not take.
It is hard to know much about the mystics, because we do not know when they came to be, or how their culture worked before Magus arrived, because after he did their entire culture revovled around him. Which leads to interesting thoughts...but ones that are probably crazy because of my lack of sleep. That gives me the idea that Magus caused the mystics to exist but that seems a little far fethced...i'll have to research that one a little.
I haven't posted much but i have read through many different threads and discussions but if i am missing anything important and obvious that this compendium has already proven feel free to point them out to me.
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The land became full of all
kinds of creatures. Among these, the dragon lizards and the more evolved Reptites
thought they would reign over the earth forever.
So it appears that the Reptites were more evolved than the apes. This confirms that it was the Frozen Flame that evolved humans:
However, the timid "apes" who had lived
hidden in the forests... ...came into contact with the crimson flame that fell from
the sky, and evolved into "humans." Or perhaps it was not "evolution," but
"transformation." In this way, humans increased in number and filled the earth...
The fearsome "progeny of Lavos" who, like their progenitor, began to devour our
mother planet.
The
anthroped brain enlarged at an accelerated pace until it became the human brain we know.
Could the reason for the abnormal development of the human brain be the biological
contamination caused by Lavos?
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in terms of the Mystics, I think the only part of the world they did control was Medina, not any "mother country". Proof for this can be seen just by flying the epoch around the planet. you can do a complete 360 of the planet, seeing all its lands, cities, etc, but never a Mystic-homeland. Another set of proof is the scene where Lavos is destroying the planet. The guy watching the screne mentions all the major cities, including Medina, but never any other city that my have been the Mystic homeland.
Magus was probably made the way he is (pointy ears, pale) because of the use of Shadow Magic. Normal Magic in itself probably doesnt mutate, because many of the people of Zeal seem perfectly normal, and use magic regualarly.
But Mystics being created, or mutated, or whatever, by the people of Zeal seems most likey to me, such as the guards on the Mountain of Woe, and the monsters you fight in the Ocean Palace and Black Omen.
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I believe that they are indeed creations by the Zealots (Zealians just does not sound correct). They were brought up with hate and malice, originally designed to fight for the Queen. Think of it, the Enlightened Ones cannot fight if all they do is dream. The Earthbound Ones possess no skill what so ever. Create a mutant race possibly via Lavos to defend for you. As time passed though the Mystics probably hated the Zealots. Under the Zealot rule they are all constrained into specific areas. Meanwhile they are much more rampant in post-Zeal rule.
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But Zealian is correct. Referring to a nationality or ethnicity, the suffix ian is generally added. A zealot is a person who fllows something with much fervour and Zeal, to the point of extremism. I think...
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Nu always seemed like a mystic to me...
Also, I doubt Zeal ever did genetic engineering. That's not what Zeal is about. Zeal is about enlightenment, and dreams. Why the hell would anyone dream up a mutation.. That's something more sci-fi.
Also, Magus' use of Shadow Magic cannot be blamed for his looks, since in RD, he still uses it, but he is described by Serge as being "handsome" and having a very beautiful face etc.
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Nu arent mystic, simply because we never see any Nu anywhere NEAR the mystcs. In the era in which you meet mystics, you only ever see one Nu.
And that is on a cliff looking out into the distance untill you scare him; Nothing whatsoever to do with mystics.
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Nu arent mystic, simply because we never see any Nu anywhere NEAR the mystcs. In the era in which you meet mystics, you only ever see one Nu.
And that is on a cliff looking out into the distance untill you scare him; Nothing whatsoever to do with mystics.
You do see a Nu in the Cursed Woods, among Gnawers (serpent Mystics) and Frogs (not Mystics), but yeah it's not that relevant.
As for the names of the people of Zeal, it's simply Enlightened Ones, not Zealians or Zealots...
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Also, Magus' use of Shadow Magic cannot be blamed for his looks, since in RD, he still uses it, but he is described by Serge as being "handsome" and having a very beautiful face etc.
Yeah, in one of the non-canonical endings. He was also an alien and such. He also loved Riddel and wasn't Magus. It changed with the different endings.
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Also, Magus' use of Shadow Magic cannot be blamed for his looks, since in RD, he still uses it, but he is described by Serge as being "handsome" and having a very beautiful face etc.
Yeah, in one of the non-canonical endings. He was also an alien and such. He also loved Riddel and wasn't Magus. It changed with the different endings.
But in Kid and the Sun Flower, Magil was Magus, and Kid was still Schala. The backhistory is the same. Lucca was killed, Kid was seeking revenge. But this time they chased the beetle, thinking they'd have enough time. Basically, it means that either way Magil is still handsome as described etc.
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I believe that they are indeed creations by the Zealots (Zealians just does not sound correct). They were brought up with hate and malice, originally designed to fight for the Queen. Think of it, the Enlightened Ones cannot fight if all they do is dream. The Earthbound Ones possess no skill what so ever. Create a mutant race possibly via Lavos to defend for you. As time passed though the Mystics probably hated the Zealots. Under the Zealot rule they are all constrained into specific areas. Meanwhile they are much more rampant in post-Zeal rule.
If the Earthbound Ones have NO SKILL and NO THREAT, as you say, what do the Zealians need to protect themselves from ANYTHING? It's a waste of their time and energy to create the Mystics. They have no interest in the surface world or any of it's affairs. Lavos is their only focus of interest below their kingdom.
Also, Magus' use of Shadow Magic cannot be blamed for his looks, since in RD, he still uses it, but he is described by Serge as being "handsome" and having a very beautiful face etc.
Magus looked fine to me in CT. So he has red eyes and pointy ears? He's still sufficiently hot to fangirls.
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I believe that they are indeed creations by the Zealots (Zealians just does not sound correct). They were brought up with hate and malice, originally designed to fight for the Queen. Think of it, the Enlightened Ones cannot fight if all they do is dream. The Earthbound Ones possess no skill what so ever. Create a mutant race possibly via Lavos to defend for you. As time passed though the Mystics probably hated the Zealots. Under the Zealot rule they are all constrained into specific areas. Meanwhile they are much more rampant in post-Zeal rule.
If the Earthbound Ones have NO SKILL and NO THREAT, as you say, what do the Zealians need to protect themselves from ANYTHING? It's a waste of their time and energy to create the Mystics. They have no interest in the surface world or any of it's affairs. Lavos is their only focus of interest below their kingdom.
Also, Magus' use of Shadow Magic cannot be blamed for his looks, since in RD, he still uses it, but he is described by Serge as being "handsome" and having a very beautiful face etc.
Magus looked fine to me in CT. So he has red eyes and pointy ears? He's still sufficiently hot to fangirls.
Exactally.
1) By creating Mystics (which I highly doubt they'd want to do anyway since Mystics could have existed in 65,000,000BC, just be something premature like those Kiwala's and slimes etc), they're wasting time on finding Lavos' magic and in the end, just making more creatures to share the power of Lavos with - something that Zeal doesn't want to do.
2) Yes, I don't see why everyone is going on about Magus' looks. I mean, really, he did say he was a different person back then. Anyway, it still suits him and maybe it's a normal thing anyway.
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Also, Magus' use of Shadow Magic cannot be blamed for his looks, since in RD, he still uses it, but he is described by Serge as being "handsome" and having a very beautiful face etc.
Magus looked fine to me in CT. So he has red eyes and pointy ears? He's still sufficiently hot to fangirls.
Magil has blue eyes in that scene in RD.
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And Kid's hair was blonde in RD as opposed to Schala's blue. What's your point? It's perfectly possible that after Magus turned good, his eye color changed to symbolize it or something.
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Maybe the Enlightened ones dyed thier hair...
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Maybe the Enlightened ones dyed thier hair...
We've already gone over this a million times.. NO. >.<
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Sorry, I wasnt aware. But why wouldn't they have done it? People these days dye thier hair.
Maybe it was just a fashion thing. I dont see any evidence to the contrary.
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Sorry, I wasnt aware. But why wouldn't they have done it? People these days dye thier hair?
Maybe it was just a fashion thing. I dont see any evidence to the contrary.
It just angers me and a lot of people.
Basically, this idiot tried to make his theory correct, and with it, he added things on Schala because he thinks he knows everything. In that comment, he stated that in the Japanese version, it was said that Schala and the royal family dyed their hair. But still, 10 years after the release, those allogations have not been found to be true.
And there's a lot to back it up.
1)Magus retained his hair.
2)People with natural blue hair do exist.
3)Queen Zeal lived for like 13,000 years and still had her hair blue.
4)Schala wouldn't dye her hair to be different, as she believes in equality.
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Dont call me an idiot, please.
It was just a bit of light hearted fun. And now I will deliver my light hearted rebuttal:
1) Magus probably, being fabulously rich, was able to obtain lapis lazuli and mix it with charcoal to get the dark blue hair colour. That, or he had his own personal stash of hair dye that he carried around everywhere.
2) Give me a link, and I will believe you. I just looked it up and searched for quite a while and all I got was hair care and hair products. 'Blue dye to complement your natural hair colour' etc.
3) That doesnt mean a thing. It is possible to get permanent dyes; maybe QZ just got into a monthly dyeing routine in which she dyes the roots blue. Many people get into such a routine for thier whole lives, and think nothing of it. Secondly, blue hair could be a status symbol, akin to being of blue blood.... But blue haired...
4) If it WERE a status symbol of royalty, Schala may be breaking a taboo by not dying her hair. She could be forced out of the royal family, and eventually society. She is able to fight for equality from her position of power better than if she were just a common Zealian. Even if it is not a status symbol, Schala has feelings and moods like everyone else, and would most likely submit to peer pressure. She may have magical powers, but she isnt super human (I believe that everyone in CT has latent magical ability, that only has to be unlocked. Whether by Lavos or Spekkio, it doesnt matter.)
Another thing is this: if Schala were to keep her existing hair and not dye it blue, she wouldn't be equal to her peers anymore. There is my rebuttal.
Now I say only this: you have to be a little light hearted sometimes and not be so damn serious all the time. Lighten up! :D
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You're not the idiot i'm talking about, it was this other guy >.>
Now.
1) You just insulted Magus. What, is he a preppy, drag queen now? Get real. Come on, he also has red eyes and pointy ears, and is pale..
2) Umm, The people of Ioka had blue and pink hair... And that's genes... even Serge and Riddle, and Karsh has purple..
3) Do you seriously believe Zeal would do stuff like that when her only goal is to become immortal and all powerful?
4) Schala is super human. The thing that kept her from doing stuff like rebelling was her ethics towards her mother, elders and people. Her sustaining the TD is enough to show that.
Don't make this seem light hearted. I love Schala, and she's my favourite NPC of all time....
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Does Magus also carry around face powder because look at my avatar (sry about the low res but deal with it). Hair dye does not cause effects like that... Magic does.
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He was joking. Yes, high exposure to Magic would cause him to look the way he does... After Chrono Trigger he would stop using Magic as much as he did as a Mystic, and viola, you have handsome Magil.
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He was joking. Yes, high exposure to Magic would cause him to look the way he does... After Chrono Trigger he would stop using Magic as much as he did as a Mystic, and viola, you have handsome Magil.
You're f***ing joking me.... Magus IS ABLE TO TIME TRAVEL! Do you know how much energy that'd take if it took Belthasar years to create a time travelling machine, and Gaspar a time egg.
From the way that Magil has so much knowledge of monsters, of everything on their journey, he has been practising magic for a very long time, even after CT.
And geez, look at Queen Zeal. She's not screwed up, or Gaspar, or Belthasar. There is nothing in the game to show that magic changes people, even if it's Shadow.
Heck, the point of making him look different may have been for that purpose exactally - to make him more noticable and bad ass. It doesn't have to be explained. Remember who did this.. Akira Toriyama.
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Yeah actually if you look at Magus he is a mix of Picollo and Vegeta... maybe he used face altering magic? Maybe it was so he fit in more with the mystics?
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He was joking. Yes, high exposure to Magic would cause him to look the way he does... After Chrono Trigger he would stop using Magic as much as he did as a Mystic, and viola, you have handsome Magil.
You're f***ing joking me.... Magus IS ABLE TO TIME TRAVEL! Do you know how much energy that'd take if it took Belthasar years to create a time travelling machine, and Gaspar a time egg.
From the way that Magil has so much knowledge of monsters, of everything on their journey, he has been practising magic for a very long time, even after CT.
And geez, look at Queen Zeal. She's not screwed up, or Gaspar, or Belthasar. There is nothing in the game to show that magic changes people, even if it's Shadow.
Heck, the point of making him look different may have been for that purpose exactally - to make him more noticable and bad ass. It doesn't have to be explained. Remember who did this.. Akira Toriyama.
Magus is able to time travel? That's an assumption. We don't know if the CT/CC Magus is able to. We only know that the RD Magil somehow made his way to 1,0xxAD. It could be thanks to a lot of reasons. Being in 12,000BC at the end of CT, Magus could have found Belthasar's old lab or the secret island where Gaspar was supposed to work. He could have found a Time Egg or the original Epoch, or blueprints for him to build one or the other. Or Lucca in the present, having found Kid, could also have easily brought him to 1,0xxAD with the latter Epoch.
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Magus could have found Belthasar's old lab or the secret island where Gaspar was supposed to work.
Nah, that was probably in Zeal, and Zeal's quiet under the surface.
Remember who did this.. Akira Toriyama.
We're talking plot-wise, this kind of talk doesn't really fit into that catagory. Yes, Toryiama sucks, but they still have to adjust themselves to the plot. They woulden't of changed Magus if they didn't see how that can happan, and to be honest, it's them that count, not you, not us. They changed him, meaning they have an explanation plot-wise. So please, stop bringing up errors in the development and\or art.
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Cause you know, it's not like the simplest answer is usually the right answer or anything....
right?
Oh.
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Yeah, except the answer touches another topic.
"Look, Serge's hair is blue!"
"So what, it's because the artists drew him this way."
"And...? I was asking for an answer in the plot."
"So? Screw you, we're looking for the SIMPLE answer, not the one that actually has to do with the PLOT of an RPG..."
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Yeah, except the answer touches another topic.
"Look, Serge's hair is blue!"
"So what, it's because the artists drew him this way."
"And...? I was asking for an answer in the plot."
"So? Screw you, we're looking for the SIMPLE answer, not the one that actually has to do with the PLOT of an RPG..."
:D :D :D
You're not the idiot i'm talking about, it was this other guy >.>
Now.
1) You just insulted Magus. What, is he a preppy, drag queen now? Get real. Come on, he also has red eyes and pointy ears, and is pale..
2) Umm, The people of Ioka had blue and pink hair... And that's genes... even Serge and Riddle, and Karsh has purple..
3) Do you seriously believe Zeal would do stuff like that when her only goal is to become immortal and all powerful?
4) Schala is super human. The thing that kept her from doing stuff like rebelling was her ethics towards her mother, elders and people. Her sustaining the TD is enough to show that.
Don't make this seem light hearted. I love Schala, and she's my favourite NPC of all time....
:D :D :D
1) Old habits die hard... Yes I do believe many people would do things like that if they were able (if it were in thier upbringing).
2)How do YOU know it was genes? Maybe they had blonde hair like ayla or kino, but stained it with ochres from various rocks.
3)Hey, Hitler kept is moustache trimmed and well tended, even after he had abandoned alot of social affairs; leaders have to keep face for the plebeians.
4)Because of those ethics, she would keep her blue hair, so as not to ashame the rest of her family. Schala may be superuhman in a one in a billion way, and may be your favourite NPC (and one of mine) but we must remain objective :D. Just because she is these things, doesnt mean she is not under the sway of human influence or emotion.
In the end, schala is only human, whatever powers she may or may not have.
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He was joking. Yes, high exposure to Magic would cause him to look the way he does... After Chrono Trigger he would stop using Magic as much as he did as a Mystic, and viola, you have handsome Magil.
You're f***ing joking me.... Magus IS ABLE TO TIME TRAVEL! Do you know how much energy that'd take if it took Belthasar years to create a time travelling machine, and Gaspar a time egg.
From the way that Magil has so much knowledge of monsters, of everything on their journey, he has been practising magic for a very long time, even after CT.
And geez, look at Queen Zeal. She's not screwed up, or Gaspar, or Belthasar. There is nothing in the game to show that magic changes people, even if it's Shadow.
Heck, the point of making him look different may have been for that purpose exactally - to make him more noticable and bad ass. It doesn't have to be explained. Remember who did this.. Akira Toriyama.
Magus is able to time travel? That's an assumption. We don't know if the CT/CC Magus is able to. We only know that the RD Magil somehow made his way to 1,0xxAD. It could be thanks to a lot of reasons. Being in 12,000BC at the end of CT, Magus could have found Belthasar's old lab or the secret island where Gaspar was supposed to work. He could have found a Time Egg or the original Epoch, or blueprints for him to build one or the other. Or Lucca in the present, having found Kid, could also have easily brought him to 1,0xxAD with the latter Epoch.
Nope....
1) The island Gaspar was working on the time egg... Is the End of Time... or should be anyway.
2) What happened to RD's Magus is what should have happened in CC's. It's just that instead this time he has a harder time finding Kid. She's not a reincarnation anymore. And El Nido popped up (even though I think Regonnia is El Nido).
3) Lucca even insists in her letter that Janus will find Kid some day. And since Lucca is dead at that point, and even in RD, she did not bring him there. Magil in RD actually got there by himself.
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1) The island Gaspar was working on the time egg... Is the End of Time... or should be anyway.
The NPC who says Gaspar works on a secret island speaks about it before the Ocean Palace disaster. Gaspar appeared in the End of Time only after the disaster, and the way he acts when he arrives in it implies that it's the first time he goes there. Therefore, that secret island isn't the End of Time. And anyway, the End of Time is hardly an "island"...
2) What happened to RD's Magus is what should have happened in CC's. It's just that instead this time he has a harder time finding Kid. She's not a reincarnation anymore. And El Nido popped up (even though I think Regonnia is El Nido).
You're mixing RD with CC. Maybe what happened to RD's Magus is what should have happened to CC's, but the fact is that it didn't happened to him in the final version of the game.
3) Lucca even insists in her letter that Janus will find Kid some day. And since Lucca is dead at that point, and even in RD, she did not bring him there. Magil in RD actually got there by himself.
That letter from Lucca is from CC. In RD, she didn't wrote such letter as far as we know.
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Casts Arise 2 / Life 2 on the post... XD
Or maybe some demi human were based on lab projects from the Zeal Kingdom.
Anyone still there?
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I wonder about the significance of the Mystics being renamed Fiends in the DS port. Perhaps their origins are demonic or otherworldly?
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I wonder about the significance of the Mystics being renamed Fiends in the DS port. Perhaps their origins are demonic or otherworldly?
in japanese, they were referred to as demons. but in japanese that has more of a sense of magical monsters, rather than the evil beings of western culture. that's why Woolsey called them mystics, which was a good choice imo. renaming them as fiends was an effort to be closer to the original script.
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in japanese, they were referred to as demons. but in japanese that has more of a sense of magical monsters, rather than the evil beings of western culture. that's why Woolsey called them mystics, which was a good choice imo. renaming them as fiends was an effort to be closer to the original script.
True enough, but even so, aren't such creatures said to normally inhabit a kind of spirit world? In the Chronoverse, such a world could simply be an alternate dimension, and the Mystics could be the descendants of creatures who somehow crossed over and became stranded.
There's nothing to back up this theory, but I find it interesting nonetheless.
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in japanese, they were referred to as demons. but in japanese that has more of a sense of magical monsters, rather than the evil beings of western culture. that's why Woolsey called them mystics, which was a good choice imo. renaming them as fiends was an effort to be closer to the original script.
True enough, but even so, aren't such creatures said to normally inhabit a kind of spirit world? In the Chronoverse, such a world could simply be an alternate dimension, and the Mystics could be the descendants of creatures who somehow crossed over and became stranded.
There's nothing to back up this theory, but I find it interesting nonetheless.
I think the emphasis is on their intelligence and magic ability.
I believe the mystics evolved from prehistoric animals and became sentient through the influence of Lavos. They probably learned magic from Zeal, who employed them.
After the fall of Zeal, they retained their magic, unlike the new human culture of the Last Village which abandoned it.
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:?
Why it not taked these Fiends/Mystigs? If it taked out at humans... it cruel... says human.
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Resurrecting very old post, I know...
I never bought that Lavos manipulated the planet's evolution, or created humans as they are when slaughtered. Ayla and co. were already around when Lavos fell. And yes, they were primitive, but 65-million years (I wish they hadn't written the game like that, that number is absurd) is a long time, so evolution taking place on its own during that time isn't a crazy theory. And keep in mind, had Ayla been born in 1000 or something, she probably would have been more like the people of 1000. (Some debate could be had to just how much like them, I realize, but it's at least pretty close).
It's more like Lavos is collecting the evolutionary information of the planet to form itself and carry on to... whatever purpose. (I have another post on this somewhere.)
Consider these two things:
First, if you access Lavos's inside via the Ocean Palace (probably on a plus game), the inside is the same. He's already got the humanoid form and so on, like Marle, etc., talk about. Now, this could be explained by the fact that humans exist at that point, and/or the fact that Lavos is in a way, like the Black Omen, transcending time. (One wonders if he "experiences" the 65-million years the way everything else does, or is it like a light particle that time slows down and stops for...)
Anyway.
Second, if Lavos could manipulate our DNA to control our evolution, why do it in such a way? He could just manipulate another Lavos's if he wants to produce better offspring. Why the planets of middlemen? But then, maybe he doesn't directly manipulate, but influences things some other way to kind of nudge evolution?
Hmm, I seem to be making points, but also offering potential counterpoints.
Except for the fact that humans were around before he was. So to me, Lucca's analogy of being like farm animals is more like he rounded us up, so to speak, or claimed our planet... rather than bred us to be as we are.
Although, I guess it's still possible there's a little of both in there.
So I guess I've talked myself in a bit of a circle here.
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I have a theory about this.
Before Lavos arrived to Earth (or Gaia?) some fragments of him landed first on the planet and began to evolve population.
Those "Red Rocks" where small fragments of Lavos cuirass with probably some interesting properties, and maybe some "mini-frozen flames".
What do you think about this theory?
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Well, it's not bad if you make it a sort of 2001 space odyssey thing. But Lavos would have to have sent these things ahead of himself, because it's not like these things would break off and arrive so much earlier that people had time to evolve from monkey-types. (Unless he uses time gates again).
But it's really unnecessary, and maybe a bit counter to the story. Dreamstone was the shiny red rock, and it seems, at least to me, to be from the planet. Especially considering that, as we learn during the Zeal chapters, elemental magic is the natural stuff from the planet (that apparently dreamstone had soooomething to do with?), and that it was turned away from when the mighty power of Lavos was discovered, elevating Zeal to new heights, etc.
Although, it could very well be that a Lavos after killing a planet (or through some other means), sends/sent out these pieces akin to the frozen flame you mention, as both scouts and catalysts. Those that reach planets either start life, or prompt life to a higher level, and communicate with the Lavos of the galazy/universe that they've started something... thus the interstellar Lavos-es know where to go.
I don't know, I guess I like the idea that Lavos was entirely external to the planet and that we don't owe our existence to him, as opposed to being like the Greek gods who overthrew the Titans. But thinking about it, the theory does work.
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65-million years (I wish they hadn't written the game like that, that number is absurd)
It is absurd, but the dates were chosen to allude to real world history as well as for storytelling purposes.
65 million BC: the dinosaurs were wiped out.
12000 BC: beginning of agriculture, also when the myth of Atlantis is set.
600 AD: around the rise of Islam, and very early medieval era. it's also 400 years before the present, long enough to be a different society, but short enough to directly influence the present.
1000 AD: high medieval era, a time of prosperity around the world
1999 AD: refers to the y2k apocalyptic sentiment which was popular when the game came out. far enough in the future so that not even the great-grandchildren of the people of 1000 AD would have to worry about Lavos. this underlines the selfless nature of the party's quest.
2300 AD: nothing too significant, except that it's well into a post-apocalyptic setting, but not so long that humans would be extinct.
65 million bc seems to break the scale, but it fits thematically. the analogies between Zeal and Atlantis and between the Reptites and Dinosaurs are unmistakeable.
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Nice summary. I would add a few things:
12,000 BC roughly approximates to the "end" of the last ice age.
2300 AD was the name of a tabletop sci-fi RPG, set 300 years after a nuclear war nearly destroyed civilization. I kind of doubt this had any influence on the developers of Chrono Trigger, but it's a neat coincidence.
This one has to do with Chrono Cross rather than Chrono Trigger, but it's worth mentioning:
A brain that has developed abnormally
to 3 times the original size in the
span of 3 million years...
We humans have evolved at an
enormous rate because of our
contact with Lavos's flame...
3,000,000 years ago is roughly the time frame when Australopithecus was becoming Homo habilis, a change which brought a rather substantial increase in cranial size. (However, I have to take this one with a grain of salt since the display in Chronopolis shows pre-Flame humans as being apelike while humans in CT were already recognizably human before Lavos even arrived on the planet. I'm not sure how the writers of CC could have missed that.)
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This one has to do with Chrono Cross rather than Chrono Trigger, but it's worth mentioning:
A brain that has developed abnormally
to 3 times the original size in the
span of 3 million years...
We humans have evolved at an
enormous rate because of our
contact with Lavos's flame...
3,000,000 years ago is roughly the time frame when Australopithecus was becoming Homo habilis, a change which brought a rather substantial increase in cranial size. (However, I have to take this one with a grain of salt since the display in Chronopolis shows pre-Flame humans as being apelike while humans in CT were already recognizably human before Lavos even arrived on the planet. I'm not sure how the writers of CC could have missed that.)
I'd just chalk it up to the differences in design choices for both games. Cross wanted to push for realism, while CT is clearly more anime.
I'm sure the Chrono Cross depiction would be more 'correct', but it wouldn't be marketable to have the nubile savage fanservice party member with a sloping forehead. *shrug*
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Nice summary. I would add a few things:
12,000 BC roughly approximates to the "end" of the last ice age.
2300 AD was the name of a tabletop sci-fi RPG, set 300 years after a nuclear war nearly destroyed civilization. I kind of doubt this had any influence on the developers of Chrono Trigger, but it's a neat coincidence.
This one has to do with Chrono Cross rather than Chrono Trigger, but it's worth mentioning:
A brain that has developed abnormally
to 3 times the original size in the
span of 3 million years...
We humans have evolved at an
enormous rate because of our
contact with Lavos's flame...
3,000,000 years ago is roughly the time frame when Australopithecus was becoming Homo habilis, a change which brought a rather substantial increase in cranial size. (However, I have to take this one with a grain of salt since the display in Chronopolis shows pre-Flame humans as being apelike while humans in CT were already recognizably human before Lavos even arrived on the planet. I'm not sure how the writers of CC could have missed that.)
those points are well worth mentioning, thanks.
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I never bought that Lavos manipulated the planet's evolution, or created humans as they are when slaughtered.
Really all I have to say about this particular point is that the series plainly states to the contrary and clearly establishes this as canon...
As far as the why behind it all?
I've always taken it that Lavos is effectively the ultimate evolutionary creature / species in the universe... it finds a planet, burrows into it, and then manipulates/guides the DNA and evolutionary path of the creates to create both the most amount of variance AND to maximize the genetic potential of the species. Why do it in such a way? He uses the DNA of these creatures to evolve and improve himself, but if he can guide/manipulate the source of these creatures to reach their full, most powerful potential (or to speed it up, it would stand to reason there is an limit on his lifespan or the time such a creature can gestate), then he is mining a rich, powerful DNA source. Why not just do that to his spawn? Genetics teach us that genetic variation is key to success, he'd effectively be inbreeding if he just manipulated his own spawn. By collecting and using the DNA of an entire planet, that's a ton of genetic variance. Then repeats the cycle by sending spawn to other planets to manipulate, guide, and use/store the entire genetic make up of every living planet? The impulse for genetic perfection and variation seems built into the very core of the concept of the creature.
And within the Chrono series, Humans as they are recognized DO owe their existence to Lavos. That isn't to say that Humans wouldn't have eventually evolved into a similar form as they did later, but its also important to note that if you defeat Lavos at the earliest point in the timeline the ending of the game has everyone as Reptites, so it seemed that Humans "winning" the struggle to become the dominant life form on the planet ONLY happened because of Lavos AND the travelers defeating Azala. Keep in mind, too, that Dinopolis is from a reality where either Lavos never fell or was defeated at this point.
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in short, Lavos' race are the apex predators of the universe.
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^
More than that. Predators eat for food.
I still don't see why it's necessary for Lavos to guide the evolution of a planet. In fact, it seems more logical that he doesn't. Why else would he burrow in and collect it all the way he does? Why travel through interstellar space? It only makes sense that it's something he can't do himself, and that's why he shows up on our planet.
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^
More than that. Predators eat for food.
I still don't see why it's necessary for Lavos to guide the evolution of a planet. In fact, it seems more logical that he doesn't. Why else would he burrow in and collect it all the way he does? Why travel through interstellar space? It only makes sense that it's something he can't do himself, and that's why he shows up on our planet.
Correct, predators consume other forms of life to support their own. The lower animals do this by directly feeding on organic material for nutrients and energy. We humans do this too, but in a more sophisticated way. Instead of consuming other lifeforms as we find them, we farm them. We grow crops, raise animals, and then harvest and slaughter them. We use our superior intelligence to manipulate lower forms of life, in order to suit our needs for nutrition, clothing, medicine, building material, and so on. In this way, humans are an apex predator.
Lavos, as a higher order of life, farms on a grander scale through more sophisticated means. He stimulates evolution on the host planet, diversifying and advancing native life forms, all so he can assimilate their DNA into his own. Just as farmers and ranchers alter plants and animals to suit their purposes, Lavos does the same with us. He uses the biosphere as a source of genetic diversity and strength, all for the advancement of Lavoskind. To that end, it makes perfect sense for him to colonize new planets. Only by absorbing the best qualities from completely divergent evolutionary paths can his race continue to grow stronger. In this way, Lavos is the apex predator of the universe, feeding on all other forms of life to grow stronger.
As an aside, the Lavos Core indicates that the human race is one of his most important sources for genetic sustenance, although not the only one.