Chrono Compendium
Enhasa Halls - Chrono Series Analysis => Characters, Plot, and Themes => Topic started by: ZealKnight on January 29, 2009, 11:00:06 pm
-
I just never really thought about this until I went to the Lost Sanctum in the Middle Ages. They took out the Reptites, but they still came about without the humans. Makes me wonder why they were not visable in Pre-history. They started appearing in the Antiquity, but I always assumed that they evolved from monsters/dinosaurs due to Lavos.
-
Well I believe the Lost Sanctum represented another dimension (Which in Chrono Cross eventually spawns Dinopolis).
As for the Fiends/Mystics/Mazoku, I always assumed that they were a broad spectrum of beings created through magical powers and perhaps summoned from other worlds (Demons).
Some may have originally been human and changed their bodies to demonic forms through magic use, which would explain why many have humanoid features.
I think to better clarify this we need to know exactly what qualifies as a Mystic. Imps, gargoyles, naga, and the armored thugs from the cathedral probably all qualify, but what about other intelligent monsters like Krawlie and such?
Then you have other races such as the faeries and dwarves. Would they fall under the category of Mystics or not? There's the fact that demi-humans from El Nido aren't, but that's a matter of lineage.
I honestly don't think any of the original CT developers were thinking too deeply into this, and merely coined the term to name the intelligent magical monsters of the middle age/present time into a category. As for their origins, it's probably varied dependant on the different species.
-
Actually, Mystics are humans. Look at Spekkio's words:
You are strong of will...!
That's why the Old One let you through.
Long before you were born...
there was a kingdom where magic flourished.
Everyone there could use it!
But in time, people began to abuse
their powers. It got so bad that no
one was allowed to use magic except
wizards.
Yeah, that doesn't tell you much, but look at the same line in the retranslation:
Hm?
You guys have it.
Power of the heart...
I get it, that's why the old man outside let you in here.
Long before you guys were born...
There was a kingdom that prospered by magic.
Everyone in that world used magic.
But that country grew addicted to magical power
and was destroyed...
After that, people became unable to use magic.
Except for the Demons anyway.
Basically, Spekkio states a few key things:
In past, all humans could use magic.
Because of abuse, humans lost the means of using magic.
However, this is qualified by a group being excluded; "demons" could still use magic.
While not absolute evidence, it strongly implies that Spekkio sees demons as a subgroup of humans.
There is a thread around here somewhere that discusses the evolution of the different species that includes further discussion on this.
EDIT: Here is the afor mentioned thread: http://www.chronocompendium.com/Forums/index.php/topic,5160.0.html
-
That Spekkio quote just makes it sound like Demons/Mystics still existed back then able to use Magic...I'm thinking they probably came from Zealian's study of Magic somehow. Mt. Woe certainly has a lot of monsters on it capable of evolving into the later Mystics...and then there's the summoning that we see at least Dalton is capable of...
-
I'd like to agree that what Spekkio says makes it sound like the Demons are a separate group from humans, but it's worded strangely: i.e. all humans became unable to use magic, except for the demon group. I don't recall, but is the word "wizard", in the NA translation, different from Mystics, or do both words refer to the same group?
Some Mystics seem far more humanoid, like Flea and Slash...I could see them being related to humans somehow, but the theory that all Mystics are/were once humans seems tenuous to me.
-
Consider this extrapolation of the basic reasoning, using a different subject matter.
"Long ago felines were omnivores
Every cat ate both meat and vegetables.
But they grew addicted to food and declined in numbers due to obesity.
After that, cats became unable to digest vegetables.
Except for cows, anyway."
Either that statement implies cows are felines, or it’s a non sequitur.
Now the wizards/mystics bit might just be a random non sequitur, but the context seems to link them with the "people" of zeal.
To note, there doesn't seem to be anything in particular separating the beasties on Mt. Woe from Mystics (other than, perhaps, speech).
-
I would go with them being either byproducts of Zeal, or results of evolution from creatures of that era. Take the Giga Gaia for example. That seems to be the earliest major mystic I can think of, seems somewhat mechanical in nature (at least to me) and he's there to guard Mt Woe. So either the mystics were created by Zeal (at least a strand of them anyway) or the budding species were enslaved by Zeal, which might explain their future (from that period's perspective) hated and war with mankind.
-
Well there's three examples of Mystic-type monsters present in Zeal, if we count alternative colored sprites as being relatives to each other (Makes sense).
Stone Imps, Gargoyles, and Djinn (Ghul too). All three of those monster types are seen in Magus' army and the first two are seen living in Medina.
There is also one possible Mystic-type monster in 65mil BC as well. The Aecyto Weevil. This would only count if you group the Rhino Weevils in Heckran cave into the Mystics. Considering most of the monsters in the cave consist of bats, octopus monsters, and other creatures, I'd count this as a weak link.
So with that, it would seem that most of the Mystics came about in Antiquity. Imps, Gargoyles, and the sorceror-type Djinn monsters. But again, without any concrete explanation of their origins from legit sources (Kato's mouth or the games themselves) we can only speculate how they came to be.
-
^exactly, but I always use to think it had something to do with magic, maybe they were born from magic? But they are in the Non-Lavos dimension. So could it be that it isn't the Non-Lavos Dimension, what if it is a Lavos dimension but the Dinos got a hold of the Frozen Flame. These are just ideas. My point is Mystics have a really strange past and I was shocked to not find anything on their origins in the encyclopedia. And we know mystics can choose any form they want. How does this happen?
-
I've always felt that way myself--that the Mystics are a byproduct of magic use, which would make us think they came around during Zeal's prosperity. I think they'd have had to exist pre-12000BC--as they establish themselves as a pseudo-society after the Fall of Zeal.
Oh, and my memory is foggy, where exactly does it say that Mystics can choose any form they want?
EDIT: Oh wait, were you referring to Mystics taking the guise of humans, a la Magus's castle?
-
There's also Flea & the Yakras. I don't think any case is enough to say that all Mystics can choose any form they want, though.
-
I bet the Mystics were the result of Bekkler - who was a scientist in Zeal at the time.
Just throwing it out there.
:lol:
-
I think the Mystics are, like in the case of humans, the ones among the monsters who got gifted in magic. Probably by a different method, which is why they didn't lost it when Lavos destroyed Zeal.
-
I've always felt that way myself--that the Mystics are a byproduct of magic use, which would make us think they came around during Zeal's prosperity.
I bet the Mystics were the result of Bekkler - who was a scientist in Zeal at the time.
Obviously you two missed it when I said they have to be able to exist without humans if the Lost Sanctum is the Reptite dimension seeing as they exist there. Also reminds me Nus exist there also, so where do they come from?
There's also Flea & the Yakras. I don't think any case is enough to say that all Mystics can choose any form they want, though.
Let me answer that with this link.
http://www.chronocompendium.com/Forums/index.php/topic,3455.msg74909.html#msg74909 (http://www.chronocompendium.com/Forums/index.php/topic,3455.msg74909.html#msg74909)
It's just like Sprigg.
-
I bet the Mystics were the result of Bekkler - who was a scientist in Zeal at the time.
Obviously you two missed it when I said they have to be able to exist without humans if the Lost Sanctum is the Reptite dimension seeing as they exist there. Also reminds me Nus exist there also, so where do they come from?
Shhh.... Don't tell anyone, but... You missed my sarcasm.
-
I know it was sarcasm but I've recently learned that there are people who are stupid enough to believe anything they read, so I have to address everything as if it weren't.
-
I bet the Mystics were the result of Bekkler - who was a scientist in Zeal at the time.
He was a scientist? Belthasar refers to him as a magician...
A doppel doll! That would do nicely.
The magician Norstein Bekkler could whip one up in the wink of an eye, if only he were here.
You've not heard of him, you say? Well, he loves festivals. Find a fair, and there, too, you shall almost certainly find Bekkler!
And while that shows that he's familiar with Bekkler, it doesn't state that he's from the Dark Ages/Antiquity/Zeal...
There's also Flea & the Yakras. I don't think any case is enough to say that all Mystics can choose any form they want, though.
Let me answer that with this link.
http://www.chronocompendium.com/Forums/index.php/topic,3455.msg74909.html#msg74909 (http://www.chronocompendium.com/Forums/index.php/topic,3455.msg74909.html#msg74909)
It's just like Sprigg.
I don't know what part of that thread you mean or what exactly it proved/answered in relation to my post...but it did bring up the other Mystics in the Cathedral that I had forgotten about. Still, Flea is still the only one I remember that could take a non-human form.
-
your kinda getting annoying
I bet the Mystics were the result of Bekkler - who was a scientist in Zeal at the time.
He was a scientist? Belthasar refers to him as a magician...
A doppel doll! That would do nicely.
The magician Norstein Bekkler could whip one up in the wink of an eye, if only he were here.
You've not heard of him, you say? Well, he loves festivals. Find a fair, and there, too, you shall almost certainly find Bekkler!
And while that shows that he's familiar with Bekkler, it doesn't state that he's from the Dark Ages/Antiquity/Zeal...
http://www.chronocompendium.com/Term/Norstein_Bekkler_(Identity_of).html
I'm going by the encyclopedia and analysis.
There's also Flea & the Yakras. I don't think any case is enough to say that all Mystics can choose any form they want, though.
Let me answer that with this link.
http://www.chronocompendium.com/Forums/index.php/topic,3455.msg74909.html#msg74909 (http://www.chronocompendium.com/Forums/index.php/topic,3455.msg74909.html#msg74909)
It's just like Sprigg.
I don't know what part of that thread you mean or what exactly it proved/answered in relation to my post...but it did bring up the other Mystics in the Cathedral that I had forgotten about. Still, Flea is still the only one I remember that could take a non-human form.
It was saying that Mystics can take any form they want but they must defeat whatever they want to take the form of first, much like Sprigg. But you know what, the Arena may answer this question because it seems that all of those creatures are Mystic like creatures, right? Perhaps it's like a Pokemon-like evolution.
-
http://www.chronocompendium.com/Term/Norstein_Bekkler_(Identity_of).html
I'm going by the encyclopedia and analysis.
You're going by a theory that uses the same source as my quote. Guess how the Compendium's theories are made? IN THE ANALYSIS FORUMS! What I said about Bekkler still stands.
It was saying that Mystics can take any form they want but they must defeat whatever they want to take the form of first, much like Sprigg.
Oh, I must have overlooked that Sprigg-like Mystic theory because it didn't seem to have anything backing it...
But you know what, the Arena may answer this question because it seems that all of those creatures are Mystic like creatures, right? Perhaps it's like a Pokemon-like evolution.
So you're saying they evolve into a form that can take on the form of other forms? >_> I don't know how much canon the Arena plays...and it seems kind of out-of-dimensional...
your kinda getting annoying
Well, I think you're swell too, buddy! Kind of irrelevant for Analysis though...
-
Holy crap you are being so annoying.
But you know what, the Arena may answer this question because it seems that all of those creatures are Mystic like creatures, right? Perhaps it's like a Pokemon-like evolution.
So you're saying they evolve into a form that can take on the form of other forms? >_> I don't know how much canon the Arena plays...and it seems kind of out-of-dimensional...
Look, Becklar doesn't even matter. It is quite possible he is from the Antiquity and you can disagree with it all you want. I don't care and it is irrelevant on this thread! Sprigg is a mystic and she is the closest we can to understanding them because she joined our party, I want to know where the hell(which may be the origin considering they are demons) they come from and why is it they only start appearing in the antiquity in the Lavos Dimension, and how they could possibly exist in the Lost Sanctum. Plus it seems that the Mystics are much stronger than the Dragonians/dinos (depending on the evolution time) and the humans. Finally I was just trying to find a way of explaining how they could have different forms and abilities using the Arena as another source, considering how few there are. If you're not going to do anything but disagree with me without saying anything else such as why I MUST be wrong (which you haven't, because you're saying all I'm doing is speculating), then don't post. And there is nothing wrong with speculation, many great theories came out of speculation, much like the existence of anti-particles was nothing but speculation for a long time but was eventually proved true. If you keep saying no you're wrong without giving me any reason then you're not being helpful. No I know I'm going on a rant, but you didn't say anything but "you're wrong because you don't have concrete evidence."
About the Arena, what I meant was what if your monster is actually a mystic, and mystics evolve, or class change, much like Pokemon. do you understand. Flea is a high class Mystic and being that class she has the ability to transform.
-
I was just arguing that you are no more right (it sounded like you were saying you were) in believing the theory that Bekkler comes from Zeal than I was in saying that it's impossible to know from what Belthasar says. There's no need to bash me either. I didn't think I was doing so to you (nor did I intend it that way). So just cool your jets, calm down, don't panic, remember: you're on the internet & nothing you say or is said to you will probably matter to you five minutes after you log off.
-
Wait...I just remembered that Sprigg is in fact a Mystic. What was she doing in the Dimensional Vortex in CC in the first place? Does she ever mention it in the game? I doubt that could shed any light on the origins of the Mystics though.
-
Isn't she either part of or has connections to the Magic Guild though?
Sneff has that magic that turns anyone into a cat...
-
I don't know of the Magic Guild, but she definetly knows the Fortune Teller of Termina.
-
Oh yeah, I think it was supposed that it was Sprigg that taught Sneff how to use that magic? Something about a fruit or something? I can't remember...I may be wrong even...Or was it that thing in the Bend of Time...? *shrugs*
-
Yeah, that's pretty much it:
At some point in her life, she met the Fortune Teller of Termina and also developed her Doppelgang ability, enabling her to transform into enemies she defeated. She lived on the outside world for much of her life, probably encountering Sneff and providing him with a berry that enabled him control over rudimentary transformation magic.
I don't think we ever find out why Sprigg was in the Dimensional Vortex though...I guess she was just tossed into it or something.
But I think it is rather interesting to assume that Mystics gain the ability to transform into a creature only after defeating it. I figured that ability was specific to Sprigg, but I never considered the Mystics from CT. I thought they were just disguises up until Yakra--where he literally changed forms...
-
Well in the first dungeon of CT all the Vipers and Nagas were disguised as humans, and it had to be a physical transformation, considering how they had tails then they had legs. How it happened I don't know, but it's how I see it and how I explain it.
I always figured she did something stupid to be kicked out of the magic guild, like maybe she was never suppose to teach Sneff to transform things and since a normal human had magic they allowed him into the guild afterwards. Why would she teach Sneff magic though? I don't know, love? Where do you think Demi-Humans came from?(sarcasm) But, the Fortune Teller was not angry to see her out so most likely not the reason. I highly doubt that Sprigg's reason for being the Temporal Vortex has anything to do with Mystic's origin, because 1) we have no way of getting any proof of how or why she got there and 2) We know she was not born there.
-
My guess is Sprigg got stuck in the dimensional vortex on accident. Prolly a magic experiment gone wrong.
-
So no luck there I suppose. That's interesting about the connections between the Fortune Teller and Sneff though. I never knew that because I never used Sneff or Sprigg much so I never saw any interaction between them. I think she probably just accidentally got stuck there. Which is interesting because it affirms that Mystics have some sort of power over time/dimensions. It seems to suggest an origin in which Lavos manipulated their evolution, to me at least.
-
Well, how did Serge get sent to Sprigg's house? Was it the Dragon Tear? Lynx's doing (I forget)?
-
Indeed, it'd be quite interesting to know whether Lavos had a direct influence on the emergence and evolution of Mystics. But how does Sprigg affirm that Mystics have power over time or dimensions? The fact that Sprigg may have accidentally been trapped/transported to the Vortex make me think that Mystics have just as little knowledge about dimensional travel...although they may have more time experimenting with it...Wait, I guess that does kind of affirm it...
Well, how did Serge get sent to Sprigg's house? Was it the Dragon Tear? Lynx's doing (I forget)?
I literally just played through this part of CC, and I believe Lynx forced Serge into the Vortex.
-
Lynx sent him there in Fort Dragonia. This is a part of the plot which I never fully understood. Why didn't Lynx just kill him? He seemingly sends him there so that he has the possibility of living. Then later on, after he regains his body and enters the Sea of Eden, Lynx/Dark Serge/FATE apparently had been waiting for him to get there the entire time. FATE gives the little speech about "blah blah blah I've been using you this whole time" and then proceeds to try to kill them like it should have done in the first place.
I can't figure out FATE's logic here. If FATE is killed, the Dragon Gods are released and this is not what FATE wants. FATE only needs Serge's body to get into the Sea of Eden and regain control over the Frozen Flame and that's it. FATE uses Kid to lure Serge there, and then tells him the grand master plan only to try to kill him afterwards? What the hell was the point of that?
But all that is besides the point. Back on the topic of the Mystics, we can safely say that Sprigg originated in the real world, and that the other Mystics probably originated in the real world too. The first time we see them is in 12,000 BC, after humanity has made contact with the Frozen Flame. There is probably a connection there.
-
I think FATE was drawing out the Dragon Gods, If I remember correctly they were not part of the original time line so she has no record on them and needs them dead in case they prevent her own death, but they are protected and hidden. Actually that doesn't sound like the right reason, but it indeed was to kill the avatar if the Dragon God.
-
Well, I don't believe that is correct, because it was FATE that sealed the power of the Dragon God (by dividing it up into the elemental dragons) using the power of the Frozen Flame. Presumably FATE did this to prevent the Dragon God from influencing the history of the mainland. When FATE was killed, only then could FATE's power of the Dragon Gods be released.
So if FATE wanted to kill the Dragon God, she would have to kill herself first in order to do it. That doesn't make sense.
-
Well, how did Serge get sent to Sprigg's house? Was it the Dragon Tear? Lynx's doing (I forget)?
A dimensional rift opens right as the Dragon Tear shattered in Lynx's hand. It's never really explained how. It could have been Lynx's power, the dragon tear, or both combined.
I also never understood Lynx letting Serge live back there. Would have been an easy win to just kill Serge, go to Chronopolis and regain control of the Flame.
-
It would be pretty boring to win without anyone knowing. FATE probably just wanted to have Serge know that she's winning. After all, it's not like she wanted to conquer the world or destroy the universe or anything. She just wanted to reincarnate into a real living species.
Perhaps even FATE itself dreamed of using the Flame to some day reincarnate itself into a new species.
Show me what the purpose of your life on this planet is... Teach me what it means to be '"alive!!!"'
As for the Mystics, the theory that says they were created in Zeal is probably the best one. Even in the pre-release version Queen Zeal mentions throwing the party members into a "research room", perhaps where they study stuff and make experiments?
-
Indeed, it'd be quite interesting to know whether Lavos had a direct influence on the emergence and evolution of Mystics.
Yup. Lets see, Mystics are known for using magic. What other creatures did Lavos influence so that they could use magic...
Queen Zeal All Hail Queen Zeal! had Melchior imprissoned on Mt. Woe, implying that it was a prison and thus making the mystic-like-beasties there guards.
Magus, a Zealean, seems to be able to get along with mystics rather nicely.
Its almost like Zeal was using mystics (or proto-mystics) as guards. Or maybe even slave labour (which might plant the seeds for the two subspecies to hate each other and eventually war over it).
-
Queen Zeal All Hail Queen Zeal! had Melchior imprissoned on Mt. Woe, implying that it was a prison and thus making the mystic-like-beasties there guards.
Or they could have been prisoners themselves, with Giga Gaia as the "warden".
-
Strange, then, that the only guard wasn't guarding the exit, but very possible.
Randomness, but in comparing the 12,000 BC and 1000 AD maps, Mt. Woe seems to connect to the earth on or near Lucca's island. The mountain itself then would be falling is a Medina-ish direction (though not far enough to actually be Medina).
-
Well I suppose then those beasts were guarding the entrance/exit could be on the Queen's payroll too, along with Mr Giga "Warden" Gaia.
It kind of looks like Mt. Woe would fall near the location of Ocean Palace, Magus' castle and where Death Peak resides.
-
They are not related to Zeal. If the Lost Sanctum is the Reptite Dimension, then Zeal did not exist but somehow Mystics do. That was the entire point of this topic. My theories are...
1. The Mystics have nothing to do with Lavos and evolved on their own.
2. The Mystics evolved from Magic and Lavos did fall into the Reptite Dimension.
3. The Mystics evolved from Magic and the Lost Sanctum is not the Reptite Dimension, but a form of it where Lavos did fall.
4. The Mystics were born in Zeal and the Lost Sanctum is not the Reptite Dimension, but another dimension where the fight between Humans and Reptites continued until Zeal was built and destroyed by the Reptites. Leaving the Mystics to rule the earth.
The point of making this topic was to see if we could find any other theory and find the most likely answer. Or at least find some clue to their origin so I can eliminate one of these theories.
-
They are not related to Zeal. If the Lost Sanctum is the Reptite Dimension, then Zeal did not exist but somehow Mystics do. That was the entire point of this topic. My theories are...
So if Lost Sanctum is in a dimension where Ayla and Crono Co never beat Azala and the reptites, why does that mean Zeal wouldn't exist?
Take a look at the Reptite ending in CT, where you kill Lavos after Magus' Castle and before killing Azala. All the humans are replaced by Reptites, yet all their speech, villages and actions are exactly the same. Yeah, I know, non-canon ending, but it still offers a glimpse into another 'dimension'. So if Reptites went on to produce Guardia, Leene Square and Crono, what's to say they couldn't discover magic and produce Zeal?
-
They are not related to Zeal. If the Lost Sanctum is the Reptite Dimension, then Zeal did not exist but somehow Mystics do. That was the entire point of this topic. My theories are...
So if Lost Sanctum is in a dimension where Ayla and Crono Co never beat Azala and the reptites, why does that mean Zeal wouldn't exist?
No the Reptite dimension is the dimension where humans are wiped out, therefor Crono and Co. would never exist.
-
Again, refer to this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1BYzrnqEEHE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1BYzrnqEEHE)
They are reptites, but they are still Crono and his mom. He even runs into Marle at the fair. They still have the potential to defeat Lavos; and for reptites to produce an exact mirror of Guardia and Crono, there would have had to be a Reptite-Zeal.
-
Again, refer to this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1BYzrnqEEHE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1BYzrnqEEHE)
They are reptites, but they are still Crono and his mom. He even runs into Marle at the fair. They still have the potential to defeat Lavos; and for reptites to produce an exact mirror of Guardia and Crono, there would have had to be a Reptite-Zeal.
That timeline is a timeline in which Lavos still fell. If you really want to rationalize the existence of a Reptite Crono and all, a simple explanation would be that since Lavos still fell, the Frozen Flame still fell too, but went on to evolve/corrupt the Reptites rather than the humans.
The Reptite dimension, however, is a timeline in which Lavos apparently didn't fall at all. No Lavos, no Frozen Flame, no corruption.
With all this in mind, I'm thinking ZealKnight's theory 1 is the most likely: "The Mystics have nothing to do with Lavos and evolved on their own". Sprigg can apparently teach some magic tricks to people simply by giving them a berry to eat. Perhaps Mystics are simply closer to nature than humans and unlocked their magic abilities naturally, whereas the humans needed artificial means like the Frozen Flame, the Sun Stone, and the Mammon Machine.
-
Actually the Sun Stone gets me thinking, if it's natural, could they have gotten magic from it? Maybe it in fact is how Mystics received magic in the Lost Sanctum.
-
Well, its power can definitely be utilized, as you can see with the Swallow, the Black Mail, etc, and it was "the foremost source of the elemental energy and magic harnessed by the citizens and sorcerers of Zeal," according to the encyclopedia. So I wouldn't be surprised if the Mystics somehow harnessed its power as well.
-
Well, ZealKnight, a question for you:
What evolutionary influence did Lavos or the Frozen Flame have on humans?
From CC, it is clearly stated that there was some influence, but we can see that other than being able to use magic, Ayla is essentially the same as Lucca. Because of this, the ability to use Magic is generally seen to be that influence. Now, we'd have a bit of an evolutionary conundrum: two very similar genetic traits evolved in two completely separate species due to completely different circumstances. While not impossible, it is improbable.
As for the Lost Sanctum, I must confess I haven't played CTDS yet. I am currently working on correctly that gap in my knowledge and hopefully will be better able to comment soon.
-
Well intelligence for one, but Thought wasn't Ayla found at Mystic Mt.?
-
That was Kino, and if Kino was from a future past when the flame had contact with humans we have a huge problem in that basically everything assumed about the flame is bunk because Kino affected the Gene pool a very long time before the flame did.
-
Doesn't work, ZealKnight. As mentioned, other than speach problems, Ayla appears to be just as intelligent as other humans. Since her people are complex tool users, we might suppose a Neanderthal-like level of sophistication. Which is to say, essentially modern in intellect.
-
Since her people are complex tool users, we might suppose a Neanderthal-like level of sophistication.
What tools? I wouldn't use the weapons you get from the chief, because those seem more like gaming devices. Also I need to object to this discussion because I see no relevance in it taking place. If you have a point to make, make it. Do not give me the fluff.
-
It's not usually kosher in the analysis forums to dismiss game evidence as just a game device or whatever. If we're told in-game something is true, it is unless later proven otherwise by further game evidence...
If nothing else, they create quite a few Dreamstone items, which could effect things...for one, it's possible that it's the Dreamstone that gives Ayla her innate fire resistance...
-
Well I was referring to the completely obvious gaming devices of how their tools were ridiculously more powerful to the present day or future weapons.
-
Why would a dreamstone-crafted sword be any less powerful than that of the present day?
Only Lucca and Robo use weapons that would in any way be reliant on technology. For every one else, blunt/sharp objects do pretty much the same amount of damage, no matter what time it's from. If better quality materials or craftsmanship were used in making the weapons, then they'll be that much better.
Just because it looks like a plot device, doesn't mean the Iokans were any less skilled at crafting weapons.
Now, a question. If the Frozen Flame never came into contact with humans, would it have been possible for them to evolve normally? It seems like the Flame only made the humans evolve (and possibly develop magic) faster. It could be that, without Lavos, humans could have evolved, but over a much longer period of time. They could have also discovered whatever natural magics the Mystics and monsters of the Lost Sanctum use.
-
Actually the fact that they are creating sharp edged swords at all is a Major deal, in our time line the concept of Forging weapons out of copper was about 5000 BC?
-
Our World=/=Chrono World
There are things obviously based on things and events from our world, but the development of technology is one of the more apparent things that does not follow our own technological timeline.
-
Yes, but Ayla's Tribe were in the beginnings of the bronze age they had to have been alot more evolved than the 65 Million BC humans of our timeline, which means that The Flame really couldn't have done alot intellect wise for humanity.
-
A brain that has developed abnormally
to 3 times the original size in the
span of 3 million years...
We humans have evolved at an
enormous rate because of our
contact with Lavos's flame...
Man, does that means Ayla's brain is only 1/3 in size of a normal human?
Or perhaps even smaller...
-
A brain that has developed abnormally
to 3 times the original size in the
span of 3 million years...
We humans have evolved at an
enormous rate because of our
contact with Lavos's flame...
Man, does that means Ayla's brain is only 1/3 in size of a normal human?
Or perhaps even smaller...
That whole statement in Chrono Trigger really bothered me. There really is no evidence presented that Lavos caused mankind to evolve.
Lavos contacts humans, they evolve. Lavos caused humans to evolve.
Let's look at a similarly structured statement.
I clap my hands, my back itches. Clapping my hands causes my back to itch.
Do the people of Chronopolis have any studied examples of human evolution without Lavos being present? Not in the game, so how can they conclude that human evolution was abnormal?
-
That give me a feeling that there are so many points of view they want to tell us in Chronopolis, but those things are just not well organized well.
When we see something unclear, we tend to look for quotations in the script. How dispointing it will be if we find something inconsistent...
And the Ultimania...I still doubt how many things are still the original ideas instead of later patched version. :shock:
-
Well the whole Lavos caused human evolution to speed up thing seemed to me to just be a theory brought up by characters in the game, a theory that I found many holes in even during my first time playing it.
The thing with theories is, they're not always correct. So a theory in a fictional world has every bit the chance of being mistaken as a theory in real life does.
That said, since it isn't presented as an absolute fact within the game, we can't treat it as an absolute fact in our speculations about the history of the Chronoverse.
On a personal level I feel the plot point of Lavos' influence over mankind was to further hammer in the point of humans being bad for the planet, that formed one of the more irritating undertones prevalent throughout the game's storyline. Damn hippies...
-
Was the FF in RD a splinter from Lavos as well? I forget...
-
Perhaps, Magil said it was from a large stone which fell from the heaven long times ago.
-
The Frozen Flame is more than just an object. It's not of this world.
It descended from the heavens long ago, part of a huge meteorite.
Once, there lived a people who sought to harness its power, hoping to tap into
their yet unknown potential. And so, it became a treasure of great importance
and dreams.
However, whether a gift which bestows power is actually a blessing or a curse,
is another question altogether.
Since the birth of humanity, at least one entire race has fallen because of it.
These people once built a great thriving metropolis with its power, but now,
all knowledge of this era has been completely lost within the sands of time.
The "huge meteorite" he refers to is obviously Lavos.
-
It is strange Magil didn't speak Lavos' name, unless he didn't know the meteorite was Lavos.
And in CT there's no such thing called Frozen Flame, but they said Zeal use Mammon Machine to contact with Lavos, which was made from dream stone.
Perhaps Frozen Flame = Lavos' shell splinter was not settled by then.
-
What tools? I wouldn't use the weapons you get from the chief, because those seem more like gaming devices. Also I need to object to this discussion because I see no relevance in it taking place. If you have a point to make, make it. Do not give me the fluff.
Alright, I will list various instances of tools or items that clearly imply tool use.
Those clubs they carry around for one. Those drums that get played when Ayla throws the feast. The clearly sewn bikini-like clothing that the women wear, Ayla's fancy tailored outfit, the northern village chief's robe and headpeice, the necklaces that the dummers wear, etc. Carved bowls. Alcohol brewing equipment. Hut making. Pottery. Rope making. Fire spits. Wood working. Totem carving. What might be fence making. And though it isn't exactly tool using, the fact that they knew how to ride Dactyls implies the beginnings of animal domestication.
But entire purpose of this is that humans evolved. Because we do not see a physical or intellectual development, the magical development is used to explain such evolution. However, you are supposing an unlikely evolutionary pattern (Lavos influence = develop magic in humans, non-lavos influence = develop magic in a totally separate species).
Our World=/=Chrono World
There are things obviously based on things and events from our world, but the development of technology is one of the more apparent things that does not follow our own technological timeline.
Quite true. However, technological development of any kind implies a physiological development of a similar kind. Which is to say, if they're crafting swords, they're intellectually on par with sword users.
Was the FF in RD a splinter from Lavos as well? I forget...
Not yet. It was still purely dreamstone and dreamstone was at that point still a stone. The FF, especially as displayed in CC, displays powers that the dreamstone never had (indeed, if the Dreamstone is the Frozen Flame, then the Masamune and pendant are the frozen flame as well).
That whole statement in Chrono Trigger really bothered me. There really is no evidence presented that Lavos caused mankind to evolve.
Depends on what you call evidence:
That one was known as '"Lavos!"'
The great crimson flame......
Wielding absolute power,
Lavos buried the dinosaurs -
the kings of the land -
in the space of a night.
However, the timid '"apes"'
who had lived hidden in
the forests...
...came into contact with
the crimsom flame
that fell from the sky,
and evolved into '"humans."'
In the eyes of the Dragons,
we humans are the foes...
A brain that has developed abnormally
to 3 times the original size in the
span of 3 million years...
We humans have evolved at an
enormous rate because of our
contact with Lavos's flame...
However, as a counter point, the game really uses a bad definition of evolution, generally using it more in the "develop to a higher state" sense than the more accurate "change to best fit the environment" sense.
-
Influenced might be a better word.
-
Yes, but Ayla's Tribe were in the beginnings of the bronze age they had to have been alot more evolved than the 65 Million BC humans of our timeline, which means that The Flame really couldn't have done alot intellect wise for humanity.
Wait...what? There were no humans alive in 65 M BC in our timeline. It depends on what you classify as a human, but the earliest fossil evidence of hominids in our timeline points to an origin between 5-10 M years ago.
But in the Chronoverse...yes, you are right. The contradictions between what we see in CT and what is stated in Chronopolis in CC are pretty huge.
-
That only makes the situation worse you know, if humanity was more or less fully evolved 50 Million years earlier than we did, shouldn't the tech shown in 1999 been discovered long before Zeal was even thought up?
-
I guess technically you were right, as the ancestors of modern humans in the real world were probably nothing more than insectivorous shrew-like animals in 65 M BC.
Another laughable comparison between R/L and Chronoverse.
Lower mammals to humans in 65m years = normal evolution (R/L)
Less intelligent humanoids to modern R/L equivalent humanoids in 65m years = fast evolution. (CH)
-
The technological process was farther along millions of years ago, as the kingdom of Zeal is proof. We only see Zeal in its final days. The technology that allowed Zeal to be what it was when we saw it was most likely in the works for a long time before we see what we see.
-
Yeah, really.
In RL, can you believe a castle buried 65000000 years can still be in its shape, like Giant's Clow ruin?
Or, those wine in Lost Sanctum can last 65000000, so does the residents, they've even kept their culture unchanged for 65000000 years...
-
Yeah, really.
In RL, can you believe a castle buried 65000000 years can still be in its shape, like Giant's Clow ruin?
Or, those wine in Lost Sanctum can last 65000000, so does the residents, they've even kept their culture unchanged for 65000000 years...
Not even that, the furniture hasn't changed one bit.
The only thing noticable is one of them evolves into purple.
-
Perhaps an aged one is purple, like the elder...
But the terrain can be changed easily in CT world, 600 A.D. world map and 1000 A.D. world map have big differences.
-
But entire purpose of this is that humans evolved. Because we do not see a physical or intellectual development, the magical development is used to explain such evolution. However, you are supposing an unlikely evolutionary pattern (Lavos influence = develop magic in humans, non-lavos influence = develop magic in a totally separate species).
Well I wouldn't use those as tools enough for their intelligence. I was actually referring to the Gun, which confused me as I was playing. But more importantly, even if they could have evolved on their own it wouldn't change my point. The humans receive magic from Lavos, and if the Mystics were created by humans from magic, where would they come from? If Lavos fell in the Reptite dimension and the Reptites received magic from the FF, that would explain it, If the Mystics evolved on their own that would explain. Human evolution has no relevance, unless what you are trying to say is that humans eventually got magic but much much later on their own and created the Mystics, but were still wiped out. I find that very highly, extremely impossible.
Maybe looking back my entire argument is probably, the Mystic's existence does not rely on humans getting magic.
I always use to think it had something to do with magic, maybe they were born from magic? But they are in the Non-Lavos dimension.
And if you are referring to my Sun Stone comment that was mainly saying that humans or reptites used the Sun Stone's Magic to create/somehow bring about the Mystics.
Mystic existence cannot rely on human, more specifically Lavos gained human magic.
-
I think evolution of the Mystics from the Sun Stone is a very decent theory. The earliest era we see Mystics in is 12,000 B.C., and since we know Zeal used the Sun Stone before the Mammon Machine, the former could be the tool they used to "create" Mystics or evolve them from other creatures. Zeal didn't exist in the Lost Sanctum timeline, but the Sun Stone probably did since it existed before 65 million B.C. (the Sun Keep exists in Prehistory). So the Mystics could still have been created in that timeline in different circumstances.
-
The simplest answer I can give is "We just don't know." Theres plenty of decent theories that could be made, but there is just a information blank on where they came from. Personally, I find it easier to believe that they had always been there, and had evolved naturally, and by the time of Ozzie, they had reached a pinnacle of their civilization; becoming powerful and numerous enough to challenge humans for dominance on Zenan.
-
they were life forms that fell off of Lavos during its descent, like the creatures that fell off the monster in Cloverfield.
-
Another laughable comparison between R/L and Chronoverse.
Lower mammals to humans in 65m years = normal evolution (R/L)
Less intelligent humanoids to modern R/L equivalent humanoids in 65m years = fast evolution. (CH)
Yes, exactly. It's so laughable that I always just assumed that Ayla and co. were somehow transported back in time to 65 M BC. After all, Kino appeared at Mystic Mountain, why couldn't the rest of the humans alive then have come from some later time period earlier on?
-
Why would the Sun Stone cause the mystics to evolve? Its never even hinted at that the Sun Stone has that sort of power.
Only the Frozen Flame, Lavos, and Dreamstone are attributed with that kind of power.
Course, there could be a lot of Dreamstone about, allowing mystics and humans to evolve separately.
-
I thought the Dreamstone's only attribute was the ability to absorb magic. Second it is like the Frozen Flame without Lavos, the old source of magic. AND AS YOU SAID THE ONLY EVIDENCE OF EVOLUTION FROM THE FROZEN FLAME IS MAGIC! Sucks when I pin you against yourself, huh?
-
ZealKnight, you're really aggressive when it comes to analysis.
The thing is... Dreamstone isn't as simple of "absorbing power". Obviously it is capable (as seen with being used against Magus and lowering his magic defense, as well as being used to destroy the Mammon Machine), but it also seems capable of storing and projecting power. For instance, Marle's pendant is only capable of opening the sealed doors once it has absorbed power from the Mammon Machine. Then again, I'm not completely sure if Marle's/Schala's pendant is forged from Dreamstone. Also, the Dreamstone is crucial to the very existence of the Dream Species, particularly Masa and Mune.
-
Depends on how you want to take this quote:
It all began aeons ago, when man's
ancestors picked up a shard of a
strange red rock...
Its power, which was beyond human
comprehension, cultivated dreams...
In turn, love and hate were born...
Only time will see how it all ends.
As that is a line from CT, in which the Frozen Flame didn't exist/wasn't mentioned, it probably was intended to refer to Dreamstone. Hence, that is where the assumed evolutionary capabilities of Dreamstone are referenced. Though I don't recall anything saying Dreamstone absorbs magic. It does absorb Lavos' power, but the game is a bit vague on the differences. If the pendant, for example, only abosrbed generic magic, why couldn't Crono & Co have used their own magic to charge it or open a door? There seems to be a subtle difference between the two.
As for the Frozen Flame, assuming it caused evolution in humans (the CC script is vague; might be the FF, might be Lavos, if it is even valid to separate the two), it is that it produced the ability, in humans, to use magic. The how isn't made clear. However, we do know that it produces a particular and rare source of energy: anti-annihilation energy. I likewise don't recall anyone attributing such power to the Sun Stone.
Boo, it is implied that the Pendant is made from Dreamstone:
Schala's pendant was made from the
same red rock as the Mammon
Machine.
-
That's funny, it was made from "RED" rock...
-
ZealKnight, you're really aggressive when it comes to analysis.
The thing is... Dreamstone isn't as simple of "absorbing power". Obviously it is capable (as seen with being used against Magus and lowering his magic defense, as well as being used to destroy the Mammon Machine), but it also seems capable of storing and projecting power. Also, the Dreamstone is crucial to the very existence of the Dream Species, particularly Masa and Mune.
Not really, just comes off that way. Deep down I'm questioning every word.
Turnip doesn't rely on Dream Stone. Then again that guy needs to sleep in order for him to exist. Perhaps it absorbed Melchior's dream, so that it could sleep for him. Don't forget the Masamune/Red Knife is still a blade. It absorbs Magus's magic which weakens him and cuts him.
As for the Frozen Flame, assuming it caused evolution in humans (the CC script is vague; might be the FF, might be Lavos, if it is even valid to separate the two), it is that it produced the ability, in humans, to use magic.
Yeah, what I said. The evolution in humans doesn't matter, all that matters is that they gained magic from it.
The how isn't made clear.
Lets be honest, does that really matter. At all. I think about this a lot. Does it matter "how" people absorb magic? I mean think about, humans don't normally have the power to absorb anything, but still many examples of it happening. Kefka, Sephiroth, Kuja, Humans in Chrono Series, and Exdeath are all examples of beings that absorb magic or any source of power in Jap RPGs. I'm thinking it's a Jap legend/religious thing. Like a real world influence. Just an idea. But I don't think how they absorb magic matters. It's that they did.
However, we do know that it produces a particular and rare source of energy: anti-annihilation energy. I likewise don't recall anyone attributing such power to the Sun Stone.
Do you have any real idea what anti-annihilation energy is? All we know is that the Sun Stone was used as the old source of magic, then the FF replaced it, because it produces it's own magic and does not rely on the Sun or any other source. They harnessed it's magic. Now I don't know if perhaps Zealians were not using magic themselves until the Frozen Flame, but I would assume so. Or maybe what I inferred wasn't what they implied.
-
uTunnel, are you implying that Dreamstone may in fact be the Frozen Flame? The emphasis on color seems odd, so I'm not entire sure what you meant.
Zealknight, you are right; it doesn't really matter. The issue is a simple one. The Sun Stone is never stated as being anything but a fancy battery for solar power. To claim that it can do more is fine, but evidence is required.
-
Hmm, no.
I mean, the pendant is blue...
Although, the Masamune is not red in CT either.
-
And besides, Dreamstone existed before Lavos fell. Although it does seem odd that if the Frozen Flame was a part of the Mammon Machine, then Dreamstone seems to react with it.
-
Zealknight, you are right; it doesn't really matter. The issue is a simple one. The Sun Stone is never stated as being anything but a fancy battery for solar power. To claim that it can do more is fine, but evidence is required.
I'm not really claiming that. I know there is little knowledge of it, just speculation. You know to give something to those people who want to believe they are born from magic.
Hmm, no.
I mean, the pendant is blue...
Although, the Masamune is not red neither in CT.
I'm sorry I'm not an English Teacher but that is really bothering me. Please fix that grammar. And it is red as the RED Knife. When it absorbed power from the Frozen Flame, which I believe is in the Mammon Machine, it transformed into a more durable and powerful form. Just like when the Pendent absorbed magic it became a different form, but then again it is more likely that it is because of the dream creatures, which give it a dream form?
-
OK, I think I fixed it.
http://www.chronocompendium.com/Term/Masamune.html (http://www.chronocompendium.com/Term/Masamune.html)
The sword is not always red, neither is Marle's pendant.
So I was surprised when I heard it was made from red stone(dreamstone).
-
Dream creatures give it a dream form?
-
I'm not sure I follow, what do you mean by dream creatures give it a dream form? Do you mean the physical appearance of these objects doesn't necessarily match the color of the stone it was created from, due to the dream creatures' influence on the object? So the Masamune doesn't appear red in CT due to Masa and Mune's influence on the sword itself?
-
Yeah, basically. That's the best I can come up with for a reason.
-
It could be the processing of the Dreamstone that is necessary to use forge special items such as these (which Melchior mentions when repairing the Masamune) changes the color of the stone as well as it's physical properties. It would make the most sense as I doubt anyone would guess the pendant and the masamune were formed from the same material visually.
-
What about the Red Knife?
-
That would be its own discussion thread, wouldn't it?
The Red Knife was made for one purpose, really; that being the destruction of the Mammon Machine. Maybe the Dreamstone was processed a certain way, retaining most of its natural properties, so that it could absorb energy from the Mammon Machine. But the Knife couldn't destroy the Mammon Machine on its own, it absorbed too much energy and turned into some other metal. When Melchior and Lucca repair the Masamune in 600 AD, they get 'fresh' Dreamstone and infuse it with more magic, imitating the process of Knife + Mammon Machine. Just a guess, but that's how I always thought it happened.
-
Hmm, no.
I mean, the pendant is blue...
Although, the Masamune is not red in CT either.
Ah, sorry, I totally missed that. It is quite strange. I think Zergplex is on the right path: perhaps it is sort of like iron in that regard. Unprocessed dreamstone is red due to a chemical reaction in the environment (akin to raw iron ore usually being in the form of iron oxide, which is redish orange), but that reaction must be undone to make it a workable mineral (which, as a total side note, is what made iron processing a defining moment in real-world civilizations). There is some small hint at this in that the Dreamstone has to be "processed" before Melchior can use it to repair the Masamune, again as Zergplex mentioned, so the idea isn't without any ingame support.
ZealKnight, the issue of the Ruby/Red knife and the Masamune is a curious one. Was it thrust into the Mammon Machine in the original timeline? We don't see it, and the few scenes we do see don't seem to indicate it, but it is a strange matter nonetheless. It is a relevant question since if Lavos energy is responsible for the color change, the Masamune would have needed to have been thrust into the machine (or likewise exposed) in both timelines.
Notably, the Mammon Machine is itself built from Dreamstone (at least in part) and is first largely a warm color (tanish/brownish red) and then a cool color (greyish blue). This might support the idea that Lavos' energy effects the color of dreamstone (though there would seem to be a specific level of energy necessary for the change, or a certain concentration). Course, the machine is blue after the party has been thrown into it, which is itself a strange set of circumstances and might negate any significance.
-
Back to topic.
I'm a bit confused. What are the differences between "monster" and "mystic"?
To be honest, before I saw those discussions, I always treated mystic as monster.
You know we call villains in RPGs "monsters", that's just a habbit.
I checked the retranslation script, something is ineresting.
[Soldier]
Long ago, a beast called Yakra lurked in
the western forest. But after the
cathedral was built, Yakra disappeared.
We're thankful for that.
[Soldier]
A monster called Yakra used to live in the forest
region to the west, and no one would go near it.
But since the abbey was built in that forest a little
while back, the monster stopped appearing.
That's divine godly protection for you. It's a
welcome thing.
[Soldier]
昔、西の森あたりは、ヤクラという魔物が
住んでいて、誰も近寄らなかったんだ。
だが少し前、その森の中に
修道院がたてられてからは
魔物も出なくなったのだ。
さすが神のごかご。 ありがたい事だ。
So 魔物 is so called "mystic" or "fiend". The retranslation also treates it as "monster".
Another example:
[Young Woman]
Some monsters live with and get on well with
humans. That piano player, for example.
[Young Woman]
なかよく人とくらすモンスターもいるの。
あのピアノひきさんとかね。
モンスター = monster
Example again:
Real Chancellor: Phew, I'm saved!
That damn monster, shutting me up
in a place like that......!
本物の大臣「ふーっ、助かったわい！
あの化け物め、あんなとこに
おしこめおってからに……！
化け物 is translated as monster here. It is original meaning is "shape taking thing". Because in oriental legends, "monsters" are usually beasts who obtain magic abilities, they usually take shapes of a human or in half-human half-beast forms.
[Young Woman]
A beast was posing as the Chancellor?
Well, the fake one had much better
taste.
[Young Woman]
魔物が大臣様に化けてたなんて……
もっともニセモノの方が品はよかったけど。
[Young Woman]
A monster turning into the chancellor......
The fake was better quality, though.
You see the usage of "monster" and "mystic/fiend" is mixed up, sometimes I just can't tell whether they are different things.
-
A very good point, uTunnels. Perhaps mystics are only monsters capable of establishing a civilization.
-
Yeah, in Woolsey's script, it is certain that 魔族(fiend clan, fiend tribe) is translated as Mystics, it is usually used by Mystics themselves. 魔物(fiend/demon) is used by human, and it is translated as monster or beast.
-------
Edit*
Sorry, spelt Woolsey's name wrongly.
-
Slightly amusing that Azala associates early humans with “apes” (aka, beasts), and 600ad humans associates Mystics with “beasts” as well.
-
Well if were going to be specific to translations, then you have a problem. Mystic=Demon. I say this because the examples you gave were more of derogatory descriptions rather than a name.
-
Yeah, it is hard to make a word to word translation, either demon or fiend is a derogatory name. Maybe that's why Woolsey used Mystic.
But you see in Magus's castle there are various types of monsters, including undead and beasts. That still make me wonder Mystics are a monster civilization.
BTW, speaking "demon", I think Magus, Ozzie and Slash(not sure about Flea) fit the name perfectly. I'm not familiar with DragonBalls series, but they really look like a certain tribe(I don't know the name, sorry) in it.
-
Yeah, it is hard to make a word to word translation, either demon or fiend is a derogatory name. Maybe that's why Woolsey used Mystic.
But you see in Magus's castle there are various types of monsters, including undead and beasts. That still make me wonder Mystics are a monster civilization.
BTW, speaking "demon", I think Magus, Ozzie and Slash(not sure about Flea) fit the name perfectly. I'm not familiar with DragonBalls series, but they really look like a certain tribe(I don't know the name, sorry) in it.
You mean Piccolo Daimao's demon clan?
-
Yeah, Piccolo.
-
So would you say that Mystics are the more civilized type and/or the ones that can essentially create a society? While Beasts are just beasts (i.e. animals that attack you). And Fiend or Demon are derogatory terms referring to both Mystics and Beasts? I've always felt that some enemies, like the Bellbird and the Roly-type enemies, were just animals, whereas Gargoyle, Naga-Ette, Hench, and Imp-type enemies were Mystics; they can speak and they can function as a society.
-
Good point. Yeah, society. Mystics can developed enough to start a war against human.
No matter we call them monsters or demons, they are different than wild beasts.
In oriental legends, such "things" are developed from beasts, they gain magic abilities, they can talk like human, they take shapes of human, and they have a society. They are called "魔" or "妖", literally demon or fiend(I know they might be different from demon or fiend in western legends, but that makes sense somehow).
Although CT is not about such legends, but perhaps some ideas are similar.
It reminds me of this topic. I really had trouble giving it a proper translation at that time.
http://www.chronocompendium.com/Forums/index.php/topic,6472.msg125290.html#msg125290 (http://www.chronocompendium.com/Forums/index.php/topic,6472.msg125290.html#msg125290)
The writer of this scenario used various names, dragon, lizard, wolf, beetle, Imp, Heckran...and he added a "man" at the end of each name: dragonman, lizardman, wolfman, beetleman....
Perhaps that's the true meaning of "Mystics".
-
It reminds me of this topic. I really had trouble giving it a proper translation at that time.
http://www.chronocompendium.com/Forums/index.php/topic,6472.msg125290.html#msg125290 (http://www.chronocompendium.com/Forums/index.php/topic,6472.msg125290.html#msg125290)
The writer of this scenario used various names, dragon, lizard, wolf, beetle, Imp, Heckran...and he added a "man" at the end of each name: dragonman, lizardman, wolfman, beetleman....
Perhaps that's the true meaning of "Mystics".
Sounds like a rough idea for the next Megaman game villains.
Jin in that respect most likely is used to represent race or nationality. For example 日本人 Nihonjin would literally mean Japan Man, but is basically "Japanese" (referring to people).
With that, Majin basically mean a race of demons or a magical creatures, and according to Dragonball they all have Ms on their foreheads..............wat?
-
It reminds me of this topic. I really had trouble giving it a proper translation at that time.
http://www.chronocompendium.com/Forums/index.php/topic,6472.msg125290.html#msg125290 (http://www.chronocompendium.com/Forums/index.php/topic,6472.msg125290.html#msg125290)
The writer of this scenario used various names, dragon, lizard, wolf, beetle, Imp, Heckran...and he added a "man" at the end of each name: dragonman, lizardman, wolfman, beetleman....
Perhaps that's the true meaning of "Mystics".
Sounds like a rough idea for the next Megaman game villains.
Jin in that respect most likely is used to represent race or nationality. For example 日本人 Nihonjin would literally mean Japan Man, but is basically "Japanese" (referring to people).
With that, Majin basically mean a race of demons or a magical creatures, and according to Dragonball they all have Ms on their foreheads..............wat?
So they're dragonese, lizardan, wolfish, and beetlen?
-
So they're dragonese, lizardan, wolfish, and beetlen?
Actually I think the proper English fictional terms for them would be "ians"
Dragonian, Lizardian, Wolfian (Or maybe it's wolfen, I never understood that movie so I dunno...)
A race of beetles is a toughie though... Beetlese?
-
In fact the writer used "男".
カブトムシ男、デーモン男、トカゲ男
Beetle man, demon man, Lizard man
Yeah, they are not really "man" of course. That it also said that "魔人" are legacy of ancient magic. That sounds close to this topic, but who knows.
-
Dragonian, Lizardian, Wolfian (Or maybe it's wolfen, I never understood that movie so I dunno...)
Dragonian, eh? Hmm, I could swear that term was used in Chrono Cross.
utunnels, by any chance do you know if the Dragonians (or even the Reptites) shared this similar naming scheme? (I guess being dragon men and Reptile men, or something like that).
-
The correct term would be "beetlezoids"
-
utunnels, by any chance do you know if the Dragonians (or even the Reptites) shared this similar naming scheme? (I guess being dragon men and Reptile men, or something like that).
Yeah, but that doesn't means anything, it is just a language habit.
Dragonians - 龍の民 - Dragon Race/People
Reptites - 恐竜人 - Dinosaur men(although this is not a better translation)
-
Isn't she either part of or has connections to the Magic Guild though?
Sneff has that magic that turns anyone into a cat...
Well then, Jack...
Seeing as how restless and
irritated you are, here's
one of my ffavorite tricks!
I will turn you
into a cat...!
I call it...
'"Cat on a Hot Tin Rooff!"'
I checked the JPN script today, Sneff shouts "ドッペルヘンゲー", which sounds like "dopperuhenge".
Maybe he wants to say "Doppelgang", but his missing teeth make that sounds in a funny way.
-
That does seem a bit more appropriate, if you ask me; the nod to Sprigg is much more inherent.
-
What does he say if Sprigg is in the party?
-
When Sneff talks about it, is when your party are sill cats and go to talk to him before getting the Handle.
But after, he doesn't seem to react at all to Sprigg.
-
That happens before he turns you into cats.
But even if Sprigg is in your party, Sneff won't say anything special.
So, it is doubtable Sneff even knows Sprigg.
Hmm, but...
An old troll gave me a
mysterious berry during
my travels, long ago.
She was saying someffing
about the Bend of Time...
昔、修行の旅をしとった頃不思議な木の実をもらっての。なんでも次元の狭間になるとかならんとか……。
In the old day, when I was on my journey of training I got a mysterious fruit. I think I was in a Temporal Vortex or somewhere...
Notice: 次元の狭間 is official translated as Temporal Vortex, although it means dimension breach(a narrow gap between dimensions). So perhaps Sprigg's Doppelgang skill also came from such fruit.
-
Wait, so Sneff has actually traveled through the Temporal Vortex? Isn't that something of note in itself?
-
Yeah, he was once in Temporal Vortex.
But "an old troll" is not metioned by him.
But I believe he met Sprigg now. The English translator must have received further information, or how could him/her invent "a troll"?
About the name, as I metioned in that topic (http://www.chronocompendium.com/Forums/index.php/topic,6942.msg144655.html#msg144655), they are really confusing. I'm not surprised he/she translated it as "Bend of Time". LOL
Wait, does Sprigg look like a Troll? :shock:
-
But how did Sneff got into the Vortex?
Other than a similar case like Sprigg's, I don't see how was he able to.
-
Indeed, we seem to have inadvertently stumbled upon something extremely important. Then again, we don't know how Sprigg ended up in the Vortex either...maybe Sneff getting out is more important than how he got in.
And I doubt Sprigg's involvement is a fabrication on the part of the English localization team. The translators had some help from Kato, so maybe he pointed them in the right direction with the troll. I mean, Sprigg isn't specifically noted to be the troll, but it's the assumed theory.
-
Indeed, we seem to have inadvertently stumbled upon something extremely important. Then again, we don't know how Sprigg ended up in the Vortex either...maybe Sneff getting out is more important than how he got in.
But, we know how he could have gotten out. Serge had to do it once.
Just entering through the correct doors in the tower, then go to the portal that leads you to the Hydra Marshes.
Getting in would still be unkown.
-
That's true--it's not impossible to leave, but there would be some great implications if he'd stayed with Sprigg: if Sprigg taught Sneff some of his magic, I'd expect the two of 'em to have made some sort of alliance. But you are correct, not knowing how he got in is devastatingly important.
-
My mistake, I checked the location names again. Bend of Time is also called 次元の狭間, same as Temporal Vortex, hmm
But since he metioned "fruit", so I assume it should be Temporal Vortex.
The game doesn't hint enough how he was able to be in Temporal Vortex.
He was on sort of training, perhaps he read an old magical book...but who knows.
And it seems someone can enter Temporal Vortex, for example, Harle.
Sprigg couldn't leave TV by herself, but Sneff did that(perhaps he figured out the trick in the tower). So perhaps Sneff didn't met Sprigg(according to the JPN script), or else Spigg would have followed him.
-
Sprigg couldn't leave TV by herself, but Sneff did that(perhaps he figured out the trick in the tower). So perhaps Sneff didn't met Sprigg(according to the JPN script), or else Spigg would have followed him.
Maybe they did try to leave together, but Sprigg got stuck or fell behind somehow?
-
It seems Sneff doesn't know Sprigg. If he does, he should talk to her when she's in your team.
-
Maybe they did try to leave together, but Sprigg got stuck or fell behind somehow?
Or perhaps Sprigg elected not to go back, or was it explicitly stated that she couldn't leave on her own?
-
The game lacks certain talks between characters.
If they do know each other, then it's just another one that the game lacks.
-
Umm... this sorta just crossed my mind but are they able to create more text than the jap script had? For instance if it is only one box they can only use one box, if there two lines they have to use two lines? Perhaps they added meeting the troll to imply going to the temporal vortex although I don't know why they would put berry instead of fruit, same amount of characters. Or maybe they did it because Kato wanted them to. Or maybe the translator liked them meeting.
-
Unlike CT, CC's NA script is more detailed than JPN script.
These 2 places(Bend of Time and Temporal Vortex) are both called "a narrow gap between dimensions" in JPN version. Perhaps the translator asked which one does Sneff metion, and the answer was "the one with a troll in it".
:picardno
-
They have the same name? That's kind of weird. What's the connection although I don't want an answer like they both are not in the dimensions.
-
Maybe they did try to leave together, but Sprigg got stuck or fell behind somehow?
Or perhaps Sprigg elected not to go back, or was it explicitly stated that she couldn't leave on her own?
Possible fanfic material detected.
-
They have the same name? That's kind of weird. What's the connection although I don't want an answer like they both are not in the dimensions.
This is the Bend of Time...
A special battlefield, where
monsters travel across
dimension to gather.
You can battle monsters that
you may have missed...
The English names are all about time while the JPN names are about dimension. That's sort of strange because this game is about dimension travel.
Maybe like the End of Time in CT, which time travellers sometimes get stuck in. So maybe similar things happen to dimension travellers?
http://www.chronocompendium.com/images/wiki/f/f7/Mp60.jpg (http://www.chronocompendium.com/images/wiki/f/f7/Mp60.jpg)
Ah, I forgot threre're Missing Piece Character Scans on this site...
According to in-game character description, Sprigg's origin is "次元の渦", which means Dimensional Vortex, while the English version uses "Temporal Vortex".
I didn't actually play the JPN version, but as far as I can tell, the scenario is called "次元の狭間 - さまよえる魂たちよ"(A Narrow Gap Between Dimensions - Where souls wander). Then English version is "Temporal Vortex - Where lost souls wander".
I don't have the Bend of Time script now, although.
OK, I managed to dump the Bend of Time script.
ここは次元のはざま……
特殊なバトルフィールド、
次元を超えてモンスターたちの
集まる場所。
This is the dimension narrow gap(a narrow gap between dimensions )...
A special battlefield.
This is a place where monsters travel across dimensions to gather.
Notice: 次元のはざま = 次元の狹間
-
Very interesting...I assume the similarities in name are simply to denote the manner of existence, in regard to the other dimensions. The Bend of Time is accessible through both dimensions, right? And the Vortex seems to have nothing to do with the other dimensions, thus acting as a gap between the two--as neither dimension truly fills the gap.
I pulled that outta my ass, but it sounds right.
-
Ok Instead of posting a new topic,I'm just reviving this one because so much has been said.
Basically we came up with nothing but questions. However utunnels found a nice little translation quirk. In english they are named after time, in jap they are dimensional. However, Sprigg doesn't seem to belong in the Vortex. And Ozzie, Flea, and Slash we know did not originate in the bend in time. This brings me to think of one other unique creature in a gap between something. Spekkio. Spekkio has all the qualities of mystic. (especially Sprigg) They both are found outside the normal flow of time, give magic, and change form. If we consider Sprigg as a possible answer, why not Spekkio? All mystics are cryptic and they have an inter-dimensional battlefield. The theory I'm thinking of is that mystics are not born of lavos or dragonians or any form of magic we already know but are some sort of creature that evolves with magic before it evolves intelligence. Perhaps they are born in these gaps outside the flow of time, but aren't very smart or just don't care all that much.
...my head hurts... :cry:
-
Everyone is assuming that the Mystics (or Demons - really hate that description, BTW) are monsters that have always been a part of the world. What if they weren't originally monsters at all? What if they were humans tragically transformed into monsters through magical means? There's no canon evidence for this, I'm just saying...
-
Only problem with that is every problem we have with the theories posted. We have no proof or evidence or even a clue to that being the case Lennis. But congrats for being the first person to post in the analysis threads in who knows just how long.
-
The best clue we have is that they didn't exist in 64.000.000BC but did in 12.000 BC.
Yeah whatever. Some magic stuff or another race that evolved into such level.
-
I still think the best evidence we have is from Spekkio:
Hm?
You guys have it.
Power of the heart...
I get it, that's why the old man outside let you in here.
Long before you guys were born...
There was a kingdom that prospered by magic.
Everyone in that world used magic.
But that country grew addicted to magical power
and was destroyed...
After that, people became unable to use magic.
Except for the Demons anyway.
This isn't definitive, but it certainly seems like Spekkio is linking humans and mystics, and in particular mystics with Zeal. This position seems further bolstered by the fact that Magus integrates with them and learns their magic. Finally, given that the power of Lavos corrupts (as indicated in CC), it would seem that the Mystics were just the most corrupt humans.
-
Thought, I already proved that that can't be. Mystics are in the Lost Sanctum. A dimension without Zeal or Lavos.
-
Isn't dalton there too?
-
Thought, I already proved that that can't be. Mystics are in the Lost Sanctum. A dimension without Zeal or Lavos.
Problem there is that the Dragonites are missing. From CC we know that in a dimension without Lavos they evolved from the Reptites. So why don't the reptites in the Lost Sanctum evolve? Or, for that matter, why did the vine ladder that the party created last millions of years? Heck, what about joining the same item to itself several times? Even if the Lost Sanctum can be counted as canon (which it isn't clear that it can), it clearly isn't behaving like the normal dimension and as such we can't know how it does or does not relate to the normal Crono-verse.
Bekkler, I don't recall Dalton being there. Perhaps you are thinking of the Dimensional Vortex?
-
Yep, to me the Lost Sanctum and Dimensional Vortex are very different in intent, but almost identical in execution. In other words, neither adds a lot to the story, makes much sense, or was done rather well.
I think most people take these areas as non-canon additions to Trigger. What about Arena of the Ages? Has ANYONE actually played it for an extended period of time? Cause it sounded like a crappy Chrono themed version of Pokemon. I visited once, found out you purchase, level up, and fight your "cute monster" with others. Resisting the urge to Michael Vick it up, I promptly left and never returned.
My point is, I don't think you can take much of the added content too seriously. Kato "oversaw development". Which means he came in and said "for this one, make them reptites. For that one, have Dalton show up and threaten them. Now where's my check?"
-
Has ANYONE actually played it for an extended period of time?
...
Well, if anything, I see it as a 'Bend of Time + Grand Slam' reference sort of thing...? Ah well...
Anyway... in regards about the Lost Sanctum and the Vortexes, yeah, it's hard that with the nature of what's inside. But, if anything, the Dalton part can still be true. Who knows what really happened to him after he got in that gate, so ending up in the Vortex can make sense... if there is really any sense, as this is all temporal stuff... :?
-
I'm not arguing the direct choice they made to say Dalton was there, just saying that re-used sprites on re-used map tiles to create extra content should be taken with a grain of salt if you're talking about canon. That's like deleted scenes on a dvd.
-
Thought, I already proved that that can't be. Mystics are in the Lost Sanctum. A dimension without Zeal or Lavos.
Problem there is that the Dragonites are missing. From CC we know that in a dimension without Lavos they evolved from the Reptites. So why don't the reptites in the Lost Sanctum evolve? Or, for that matter, why did the vine ladder that the party created last millions of years? Heck, what about joining the same item to itself several times? Even if the Lost Sanctum can be counted as canon (which it isn't clear that it can), it clearly isn't behaving like the normal dimension and as such we can't know how it does or does not relate to the normal Crono-verse.
Bekkler, I don't recall Dalton being there. Perhaps you are thinking of the Dimensional Vortex?
Thought, basically your just writing off the Lost Sanctum as non-cannon, correct?
-
Not really. I am saying that because everything is so messed up in the Lost Sanctum, how the information we get from the sanctum relates to the rest of the world is at this point not clear enough to be useful.
So there are Reptites there; should we take those to be Reptites from a dimension in which Lavos never fell? If so, why don't they evolve into Dragonians? Is this a dimension that is actually separate from the Dragonian dimension of which we are familiar? Does time pass as normal there (the vines would indicate not)? If it isn't the Dragonian dimension, and if time doesn't pass normally, what relative point in time are these events occurring? And if there are these questions for the Reptites, why shouldn't similar questions apply to the Mystics (or mystic-like things) that exist there?
At present we don't know how to evaluate this information. Saying that the Mystics can't have evolved from humans because they are present in the Lost Sanctum requires that we make assumptions about the LS that just aren't tenable at this point.
-
Well let me ask you this. Do you think it's really impossible that vines can't grow and die over time in the same spot? More over, I think we can logically assume that Lavos never fell. The only problem is no Dragonians. I'm just assuming that either A)Dragonians have not evolved yet or B) A dimention without dragonian evolution. The interesting thing is the Mystics appear here before they do in the Lavos line.
-
Well let me ask you this. Do you think it's really impossible that vines can't grow and die over time in the same spot?
For 65,000,000+ years? In the shape of a vine ladder? When the vines were already cut and not just planted there? Yes.
The only problem is no Dragonians. I'm just assuming that either A)Dragonians have not evolved yet or B) A dimention without dragonian evolution.
If we are going to assume non-standard evolution for the Reptites, why not also for the humans? We have evidence that Mystics are humans, so why not assume here that humans just evolved very very quickly?
Also, there are more problems than just those two: at least once (and I think twice) the party joins a stone to itself to get a new item. That seems to defy the nature of time travel as we see it in the rest of the game.
Then there is the civilization that never changes (no mind its members never evolving). The village that never changes. The statues that appear in a location that the reptites never get access to until the party does and first sees that statues.
-
For 65,000,000+ years? In the shape of a vine ladder? When the vines were already cut and not just planted there? Yes.
It could be that, with the vine in place, it becomes easier to... perhaps, replace the vine every now and then?
-
Wait, what evidence is there that they are humans? All you posted was speculation.
-
Speculation insofar as I am extrapolating from given evidence, yes. That evidence itself comes from fairly simple grammatical analysis. We have a speaker referring to a group performing an activity. That speaker then says that the group ceased that activity. The speaker then adds an addendum to that statement giving an exception. Either Spekkio's reference to Mystics/Demons was a non sequitur (a possibility), or he was calling Demons Humans. I am not calling this definitive proof, just valid evidence.
-
So in other words were right back where we started. I tend to take the Lost Sanctum as cannon. Not that it is the dragonian dimension, I'm pretty sure we know it's not.(considering that the reptites don't even know what a human is) I thought that there were no humans at all in this timeline and that the mystics are just separate.
However Thought, if the mystics are just humans that evolved with magic how come there really is no mention of it in Zeal. You would think that would be a major point of discussion. Or more importantly in Chronopolis where they studied a good amount of evolution. It just seems like too much dialogue is missing for that to be true. Most people just recognize that demons exist, and nothing more. They have some link to magic, but obviously if Lavos is not in the Lost Sanctum (which I think the compendium currently holds as true) then the Frozen Flame/Zeal is unrelated. Perhaps humans. Perhaps the sun stone. Perhaps humans just evolved with magic naturally. But all of these are wild goose chases. The only thing we know for certain is that Lavos/Zeal is not necessary.
-
Well it isn't that LS isn't canon but that no matter its status, it tells us two things: jack, and squat. Sure, Lavos/Zeal aren't necessary, but isn't the only reason that Lavos was necessary because its fall eliminated the reptites, opening up the way for humans to take over?
-
So in other words were right back where we started. I tend to take the Lost Sanctum as cannon. Not that it is the dragonian dimension, I'm pretty sure we know it's not.(considering that the reptites don't even know what a human is) I thought that there were no humans at all in this timeline and that the mystics are just separate.
However Thought, if the mystics are just humans that evolved with magic how come there really is no mention of it in Zeal. You would think that would be a major point of discussion. Or more importantly in Chronopolis where they studied a good amount of evolution. It just seems like too much dialogue is missing for that to be true. Most people just recognize that demons exist, and nothing more. They have some link to magic, but obviously if Lavos is not in the Lost Sanctum (which I think the compendium currently holds as true) then the Frozen Flame/Zeal is unrelated. Perhaps humans. Perhaps the sun stone. Perhaps humans just evolved with magic naturally. But all of these are wild goose chases. The only thing we know for certain is that Lavos/Zeal is not necessary.
You don't even know that. What we know is the DS extra content adds more plot holes than it closes.
Evolution and corruption are not the same thing. Zeal fell into the water, with a bunch of people, magic, and technology, that we've seen mutate TWO Zeal family members. How far of a stretch is it that Zealean magic/technology would do the same to more people before the next explorable era, which is 12600 years later?(See: enough time)
And the Lost Sanctum is only visitable via gates in Prehistory and 600AD, but that in no way MEANS they take place in those times! Why does nobody get this? That's why it's a gate! You go in Bangor Dome and pop out at the End of Time, you don't think Bangor IS the End of Time, do you? No!
And creatures who are not Crono&co could have easily wandered in. It never says Mystics/Fiends evolved there. It said Monsters ARE there.
Lastly, claiming "the Compendium holds" something "as true" doesn't help your argument any more than saying "cause Zeality said so"
-
Hmm... I like that. The Lost Sanctum, though it is a dimension apart from the normal Chronoverse, might not be a dimension in the same sense but rather a sanctuary for temporal refugees. 65,000,000 BC and 600 AD are related insofar as in those times the fate of a race changes. For the Reptites, they go into decline. For the Mystics, they (if we defeat Ozzie) move towards being peaceful. The Sanctum itself, then, might be a location in which the fates of these would-have-been nations goes. Not the Darkness Beyond Time, persay, but something along those lines. The Mystics and Reptites are there not because they naturally exist there, but because they are lost in time.
-
In 12000 BC, you can see monsters on Mt. Woe that heavily resemble the Mystics. It's probably a fair assumption that they are the ancestors of the mystics.
Where the monsters on Mt. Woe came from on the other hand, is a mystery.
-
And the Lost Sanctum is only visitable via gates in Prehistory and 600AD, but that in no way MEANS they take place in those times! Why does nobody get this? That's why it's a gate! You go in Bangor Dome and pop out at the End of Time, you don't think Bangor IS the End of Time, do you? No!
Well, the the beach is cross is a gate too. It's possible that they don't take place at the same time as their gates connection, it's just another assumption as they are defiantly the same place with different times.
Lastly, claiming "the Compendium holds" something "as true" doesn't help your argument any more than saying "cause Zeality said so"
I wasn't going for that, but good job being an ass about it. I was just implying that it's possible that lavos could have fallen. Just an assumption we collectively have. Basically I'm not stupid for thinking that.
-
In 12000 BC, you can see monsters on Mt. Woe that heavily resemble the Mystics. It's probably a fair assumption that they are the ancestors of the mystics.
Where the monsters on Mt. Woe came from on the other hand, is a mystery.
there were also many Mystics in the Ocean Palace. and then there's Dalton's Golems.
The Mystic race clearly began in Antiquity. They might've been directly created by magical experimentation, or indirectly created. the use of powerful magic could've been a catalyst that caused the distant descendants of prehistoric animals to evolve, become sentient, and become magic-users. from there, they were employed by Zeal in a guardian role on the fringes of their society. And they clearly were fringe and not really accepted. the only non-human beings who were accepted by Zeal were the Nu and Dream Species.
-
Hm! The theory of the Mystics' origin in Zeal is something that could be handled in Bekkler's "Chrono Shift"-project...
Speculation insofar as I am extrapolating from given evidence, yes. That evidence itself comes from fairly simple grammatical analysis. We have a speaker referring to a group performing an activity. That speaker then says that the group ceased that activity. The speaker then adds an addendum to that statement giving an exception. Either Spekkio's reference to Mystics/Demons was a non sequitur (a possibility), or he was calling Demons Humans. I am not calling this definitive proof, just valid evidence.
What is the significance of the japanese word translated here as "people"? Perhaps with "people", only the plural of "person" is meant (since "persons" sounds odd in English). Therefore, Spekkio could merely have been speaking of all sentient beings.
So he could have been saying:
During the era of this kingdom, all people (humans + mystics) could use magic.
Afterwards, humans could no longer use magic, but the mystics still could.
-
Mystics /Fiends... i dont know where...
but, i cant think lavos kill all Reptites... althoug i think that when they lost that leader, they slow lost it to humans...
But... Humans stop Reptites, Humans stop fiends and then Humans stop Lavos...
fiends-><-repites?
-
So he could have been saying:
During the era of this kingdom, all people (humans + mystics) could use magic.
Afterwards, humans could no longer use magic, but the mystics still could.
This is an interesting comment, and it makes me think that perhaps Spekkio has a broader definition of 'people' than we generally assume. The Mystics in Medina are obviously 'people' in that they are intelligent civilized beings, yet most of the characters in the game do not consider them people, at least when referencing them, due to their past behavior as dangerous monstrous beings during the war. This is at least partly just to identify that the NPCs aren't talking about dangerous humans, but specifically the mystics... however, it also makes it appear that the human view of 'people' only applies to human beings.
Back to the subject of 'where did they come from,' I think its possible that they are the intelligent evolution of existing creatures, even going as far back as Zeal, they may have been intelligent. Most enemies fail to address the player before a fight, so if we assume they can't simply because they don't, then the majority of existing mystics in the game are quite feral. Mt. Woe (I believe) contains Feral Imps and Imp Aces (as I recall). They already seemed to be domesticating animals to do their work, which to me implies that they are at least somewhat intelligent by this point.
I think it's reasonable that in the 64,988,000 years between Ioka and Zeal, the creatures of the world (Though not all) may have become intelligent. I also believe that the mystics are not a race of people at all, but rather many races of people, each coming from a different evolutionary lineage, and each, throughout the years, being shunned, hunted, assaulted by humans, to the point where they eventually became a united front against them.
Lavos' goal is to collect DNA with advanced or useful properties... I think it's possible that it could thus influence the development of lesser creatures to become intelligent and eventually be yet more fodder for harvest.
I suppose in a timeline my thoughts flow this way:
65m BC: No mystics, primitive animal life, Lavos arrives. Lavos sees not enough potential in humans alone for cultivation, and reptites are dying out due to Lavos' arrival.
65m BC: Lavos begins seeding the DNA of multiple creatures in a symbiotic plan to advance them, so it can be advanced using them.
65m-12k BC: Multiple life forms begin using tools, communicating, becoming intelligent... how fast this happens is unknown, nor is the level of this intelligence at any point known. It may be that 'mystic-like' intelligent life started appearing only months after Lavos came... or it could be millennia or eons... Humanity, in possession of the Red Stone (generic, not a singular stone), continues to advance at an accelerated rate.
12k BC: Humanity is highly advanced, with thanks to the Red Stone and likely the Flame. Mystic-like intelligent beings exist, but may not be as intelligent as the land dwelling humans, or may be moreso, no information is available.
12k BC: Zeal falls. Humanity is set back, but continues to advance, now in unison. Mystic-like beings may take control of any Zeal remains, thus becoming exposed to magic if they had not already been.
...
600-1000 AD: Mystics are the current end-point of the developing intelligent beings thusfar.
1999 AD: Mystics are nearly if not entirely obliterated by Lavos, along with most of humanity.
2300 AD: Surviving mystics, if there are any, are few and have possibly mutated, losing the ability for magic, or with other effects. Krawlie may be a mystic-descendant, as may the 'fish-men.'
Theory on Mystic's magical ability:
Nu. Nu are prevalent in Zeal, and once Zeal falls, we see that some Zealeans survive, so it's possible many Nu do as well. Nu being a part of Zeal's magical culture, may be the influence on the mystic-like beings that eventually allows them to learn magic.