Chrono Compendium
Enhasa Halls - Chrono Series Analysis => Characters, Plot, and Themes => Topic started by: Crono0801 on June 09, 2004, 07:58:53 pm
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Ok so I always wondered wtf was up with this.
Ok how can Melchoir be in the present before Crono and them saved him for Mt. of Woe? In the original happenings Melchoir and the other Gurus were thrown through the gates right. But could Melchior be there if he was sealed at the Mt. of Woe? Crono saved him right but what if Crono didn't save him, he would still be sealed at Mt. of Woe right? If he was sealed who could he have been thrown through the gate?
Could destiny/FATE have just thrown him into the present knowing that it was Crono's destiny/FATE to go save him?
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Remember Magus' flashback? That's the original timeline. That shows how Melchior got in the gate. The Gurus were only banished when Magus was sent to Zeal again when Crono & Co. interrupted his summoning of Lavos.
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Thats right i forgot that Magus wanted to awaken Lavos and that the Gurus didn't want to awaken him so Magus told the queen to banish them. Thanks I never thought about it like that.
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Here's a question, slightly off topic though.
If Magus had succeeded in summoning Lavos to his castle and was victorious, would that be the end of that, no erruption in 1999 A.D. or would Magus be doing battle post erruption like the party does? If he would have averted the erruption (which is what I think for now) that would have had a dramatic effect on history...the knowledge of Lavos would have died forever with Magus...
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Perhaps my memory is off, but you don't have to fight Lavos "post-eruption". You can take him on at a number of points in time.
And I would assume, yes - had Magus been victorious in defeating Lavos, the future Crono saw originally would have never happened. Of course, Magus failed once in this attempt. Who knows what it would have taken for him to finish off Lavos in the Middle Ages.
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Magus didn't win though...Lavos took care of him originally...So you're asking "What If...?" I guess? I suppose no one would really know, no...Although Chronopolis seemed to have Lavos' impact date on record, so not ALL knowledge of Lavos would be completely gone...
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Perhaps my memory is off, but you don't have to fight Lavos "post-eruption". You can take him on at a number of points in time.
The actual battle with Lavos occurs after his erruption in every instance except in the Ocean Palace.
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So I wonder what happened. Ok Lavos kills Magus in 600 AD right then he just goes right back into the warp or where ever Magus summoned him from without no eruption or destruction?
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Yes. Lavos kills Magus, goes back to sleep for another 1399 years, then errupts and destroys the world.
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haha thats funny. its like waking up at night to use the restroom and going back to sleep, like nothin happened.
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The actual battle with Lavos occurs after his erruption in every instance except in the Ocean Palace.
What about when you challenge him from the Black Omen? I don't know if you consider that too his erruption...But whatever...Either way you end the fight in that whacky temporal vortex thingy outside of time anyhow...So any damage he caused is before the fight is minimal.
So I wonder what happened. Ok Lavos kills Magus in 600 AD right then he just goes right back into the warp or where ever Magus summoned him from without no eruption or destruction?
Why would Lavos? He needs to draw more energy from the planet, Magus simply interrupted him from doing so. So Lavos takes care of that, then goes back into hibernation until 1999 (or whatever).
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Not sure about the Black Omen...Zeality could probably respond better by giving some info from the Pocket Dimension Theory.
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Zeality isn't necessary to explain the Pocket Dimension Theory; several of us could do it, and it was GrayLensman's theory in the first place, anyway. I'm not willing to explain it in detail right now, since you could probably find it by searching the forums (I believe the topic called "Four Lavos Questions" or some such title had the main discussion on this theory), but basically it's this: Lavos does not actually (or at least not necessarily) lie dormant in the planet for 65,001,999 years. Instead, he resides in a "pocket" of time and space called a Pocket Dimension. This connects through a wormhole (or in this case, a series/network of wormholes) to real time-space at several points: namely, all those time periods that you can travel to and find him in. He exists in the same form, age, and power at all these places at once, much like time passes for Crono and the party at the same rate in all time periods at once. So in reality, he could have been gathering energy through wormholes from the planet for a much shorter time. That blue vortex you always fight him in is the Pocket Dimension; you enter it, fight him, and come back out. I believe the only time Lavos actually leaves the Pocket Dimension is to rain destruction from the heavens in 1,999 A.D., and even then I may be mistaken.
I think I started to explain more than I meant to, and I started making less sense than I meant to. Excuse me. For full information, I'd suggest looking up any topics on Lavos that are still on the boards.
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Yes, the timelines of Pocket Dimensions, the End of Time, and the Darkness Beyond Time all run 'perpindicular' to the normal flow of time. Once Lavos is defeated, he is defeated forever. This doesn't mean he will be totally absent from history; Zeal will still fall regardless whether Lavos exists, as his exiting the Pocket Dimension is a form of time/dimensional travel, and thus grants the experience immunity. This is why even though Crono changes time the original Belthasar from the Lavos timeline appears in 2300 A.D., not the Belthasar from the Keystone Timelines. It is a fact of history that the original Belthasar walked out of a Gate in 2300 A.D., and thus he is protected.
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You are correct, CTF, my apologies to Lensman, you, and anyone else I may have offended.
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Well, considering I've been here since the beginning and am a human dictionary of Chrono series information and theories that hounds this site, asking me isn't that bad of an idea. I see the point though.
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Hm, Lavos also left the ground(So does that means he leaves the pocket dimension?) in 1999 AD... I wonder how the 1999 Worlders reacted to seeing a giant lava demon come out of the ground, and then a bunch of unknown people appear to fight it? :P
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Lavos didn't kill Magus in 600. As far as I know there is no evidence to back this up in Chrono Trigger. What is implied is that Magus dissapeared. If you believe Lavos did kill Magus consider this: In the Crono timeline Magus is summoning Lavos when Frog, Crono and co. arrive. They fight untill a giant portal arrives and sucks them all in. Well, why would this be different in the normal timeline? Why would the arrival of Crono and co change the arrival of Lavos into a portal?
It is my thoery that Magus in the original timeline is sent back to Zeal in a third(first being normal and second being Crono) timeline where he does the same things he does in the Crono timeline sans Crono and co. In zeal either he awakends Lavos and is killed or he awakens Lavos, is diffeated and sent safely away with Schala.
Hell, it could even be him that takes out Dalten in the Crono-less timeline
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I meant by Schala, not with Schala.
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I thought i saw someone somewhere mention that just because people can see Lavos, doesnt mean he has left pocket dimension (or maybe I am getting my facts/theories mixed up) Besides, isn't that blue "aura" background supposed to be the pocket dimension or something. maybe i saw that mentioned somewhere as well, or perhaps i just dreamt it up.
I would be pretty freaked out if I was in that dome north of Lavos's awakening, heh I would go hide in my basement or something.
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Hm.. what if Magus was to somehow suceed in this "Crono-less" timeline (The following assumes the Pocket Dimension theory is false) and because Lavos is missing 12,600 years of growth and evolution (Especially consdiering that there aer barely any species that survive the huge 65,000,000 - 12,000 Iceage, which would hurt it more, as it grows from evolution (At leas ttahts how I understood it) ) that allows Magus to destroy it before it causes Zeal's fall? Of course, Zeal would fall without Lavos, but it may have been less Catastrophic... (Zeal seems to have broken up as it fell, due to lasers), with more survivors, and a New Zeal civilization would likely have been able to last longer...
Of course, any "Crono-less" timeline would not exist due to the fact that Crono DOES go to 12,000 BC....
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Lavos didn't kill Magus in 600. As far as I know there is no evidence to back this up in Chrono Trigger. What is implied is that Magus dissapeared. If you believe Lavos did kill Magus consider this: In the Crono timeline Magus is summoning Lavos when Frog, Crono and co. arrive. They fight untill a giant portal arrives and sucks them all in. Well, why would this be different in the normal timeline? Why would the arrival of Crono and co change the arrival of Lavos into a portal?
I believe Magus states on the North Cape that Crono interrupted him as he was summoning Lavos. Magus was probably creating a gate to the pocket dimension in which Lavos resided. (Well, there are difficulties in Lavos being summoned TO Magus' castle - more likely, Magus was travelling to him)
Crono's interference might have destablized the gate somehow. The party had no control over where they were being ported to and neither did Magus.
No interference means a proper gate.
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Hm.. what if Magus was to somehow suceed in this "Crono-less" timeline (The following assumes the Pocket Dimension theory is false) and because Lavos is missing 12,600 years of growth and evolution (Especially consdiering that there aer barely any species that survive the huge 65,000,000 - 12,000 Iceage, which would hurt it more, as it grows from evolution (At leas ttahts how I understood it) ) that allows Magus to destroy it before it causes Zeal's fall? Of course, Zeal would fall without Lavos, but it may have been less Catastrophic... (Zeal seems to have broken up as it fell, due to lasers), with more survivors, and a New Zeal civilization would likely have been able to last longer...
If I make sense of what you're saying, you're suggesting that (disregarding the Pocket Dimension Theory, which I think was a very rash action in itself) Magus could have travelled back from 600 A.D. to 12,000 B.C. and destroyed Lavos by himself simply because it's not as powerful in 12,000 B.C. Even without referring to possibilities, I can show you why this could not be (or at least why your proof isn't valid):
1) Lavos's Core advances in genetic complexity, intelligence and will by taking on the DNA of species on the planet, yes, but its power comes from the planet's core itself as it absorbs energy. I don't know about you, but I think the difference in energy that Lavos could have absorbed in 12,600 B.C. is not very significant considering it had already devoured energy for 64,988,000 years either way.
2) Zeal's fall would have been more catastrophic to have several large chunks of rock fall in a close area, therefore amplifying everything as one giant force, rather than the many small bits landing in a broader area with more counteractions to reduce the waves. If the bursts of energy from the Ocean Palace helped break up the rocks, it was a favor.
3) If Lavos was destroyed (or, as we assume normally in the game, withdrew from 12,000 B.C. indefinitely), the people would no longer have magic and there could be no new civilization similar to Zeal.
4) We already see Magus attempt to destroy Lavos in 12,000 B.C., even after others have already fought and presumably weakened it, and he fails miserably. Nothing would have changed except perhaps Magus's actual death had the others not been there with him.
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Hm, we see Magus fail? When was that?
And intelligence and will are both very large factors in a battle. Yes, Lavos had an advantage in brute force, but there was far less DNA to be harvested from the ice age of 65,000,000 BC to (whenever the ice age ends), and the only intelligent creatures are humans, who Lavos is weakening himself by aiding (I imagine magic, even slightly wakens him, as did letting off some of his energy into the Flame). Yes, I'm being overly optimistic in saying that the Zealan Continent could fall all that distance and, yes, it would ause many waves, but some of it may still be above the ocean if it fell in one piece. And remember, the Zealans were intelligent. Though there would be a dark age, it would certainly not be as long as the one caused by it's catastrophic fall and the deaths of almost all of the more intelligent people.
Also, this just came to mind. The Zealans were in possesion of the Sun Stone, which does not use Lavos Energy, correct? This could be used to create a new civilization.
But of course, you do make a good point that Magus would have a very hard task in defeating Lavos, and that the Pocket Dimension theory should not be disregarded, considering the things in favor of it... a more likely scenario would be Crono + Party defeating Lavos at the Ocean Palace disaster (which can be done, but the timeline o Crono Cross seems to say that that is not how history went)
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Hm, we see Magus fail? When was that?
[Prophet]
I've waited for this...
Magus: I've been waiting for you,
Lavos.
Magus: I swore long ago... that I'd
destroy you!
No matter what the price!
It is time to fulfill that vow.
Feel my wrath, Lavos!!
[Queen]
What do you think you can do?
Also, this just came to mind. The Zealans were in possesion of the Sun Stone, which does not use Lavos Energy, correct? This could be used to create a new civilization.
It was implied by an old man that the energy of the Sun Stone was drained. He said "we no longer need the energy of this tired old planet," and judging from the fact that the Sun Stone is a Moon Stone in Zeal Palace (simply a storage facility for the stone from 12,000 B.C. to 2300 A.D.), we may assume it was completely void of energy before Zeal fell.