Chrono Compendium
Enhasa Halls - Chrono Series Analysis => History, Locations, and Artifacts => Topic started by: Thought on May 16, 2008, 07:32:00 pm
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When I say exhaustive, I mean that this is exhaustive. Researching the topic alone required reading 10ish different threads on Porre and Guardia. If you want to see the quick and dirty results of my analysis, please look at the very bottom of this post, under Conclusions. Please do feel free to comment, contradict me, etc.
Intro
What caused the Rise of Porre and the Fall of Guardia? Masato Kato has specifically said (in the Game Pro interview; http://www.chronocompendium.com/Term/GamePro_Interview.html) that Porre received some sort of influence origination outside of the original flow of history, and given the cut-scene at the end of the re-release of Chrono Trigger on the Play Station, it is implied that in turn Porre was responsible for the Fall of Guardia. Unfortunately, the exact nature of this influence is unclear; what, exactly, was the influence and how did it effect the world?
Perhaps more than most topics, the question of the Rise of Porre and the Fall of Guardia has been discussed extensively; however, a unified and complete analysis of the subject has not yet been accomplished. Such an analysis is what I intend to present in this article.
It should be noted that, though Porre invaded Guardia around 1005, the Rise of Porre and Fall of Guardia may have different causes that just happened to culminate in the conflict seen at the end of the PS version of Chrono Trigger. This article attempts to examine all possible scraps of evidence for one or the other and evaluate them, resulting in perceived ratings of probability and significance. To do so, a wide range of evidence is considered, across times, mediums, and games.
Of a degree of interest, the implication of Kato’s statement is that this influence was intentional, revealing that in all likelihood the Rise of Porre was the result of some deliberate intervention of a time traveler (or one with the ability to similarly manipulate time). However, such an interpretation is resting on the assumption that the translation is good and accurate.
The Original Timeline
A fundamental question associated with Porre and Guardia is in what timeline did these events take place? If Marle had never stepped onto that telepod, would Porre still have invaded Guardia? Or, in other words, in the timeline that existed before the events of Chrono Trigger (usually referred to as the Lavos Timeline), would Guardia have been overthrown?
A definite answer cannot be given as no conclusive evidence is presented in the game; however, a comparison of the various over world maps implies that Guardia was in fact no longer a major world power before the Day of Lavos in the Original Timeline.
First, it should be noted that Time Gates exit to the same (or near same) physical location on the planet as the entrance, but in a different time period. That is, a Gate in Truce Canyon in 600 AD will lead to the exact same location, but in 1000 AD (now Leene Square). Therefore, it is possible to fix a location in one time period with a location in another time period by merely matching up the two gates. The physical location consistency is indicated by the Leene Square/Truce Canyon gate and generally accepted. Unfortunately, not all time periods may be connected in this manner since after Robo joins the party, time gates usually lead to the End of Time (usually, but not always; the one exception is when Schala sends the party through the game back to the prehistoric period and seals it in turn). This principle, however, allows 600 AD, 1000 AD, and 2300 AD to be linked directly with each other (though 600 and 1000 are similar enough not to need it), as well as 65000000 BC and 12000 BC to be linked together.
From that, consider the gate that leads from Guardia Forest to Bangor Dome. Given that the gates open to the same physical location, Bangor Dome must occupy the same physical location as the Guardia Forest gate. Therefore, in the future, Bangor dome came to occupy a location that should have been taken up by Guardia Castle (or, at least, a partially overlapping location). Bangor Dome was presumably built before the Day of Lavos, so Guardia Castle was apparently before the apocalypse.
While it is not terribly surprising that, given the destruction associated with the Day of Lavos, the castle would not be present in 2300, knowing that the castle should be right next to a dome allows one to correlate this to the 1999 partial world map. On this map there are a few things to note: Lucca’s island is fairly easy to find (with its own dome), there seems to be a large dome representing Truce (or a city that was built in the same place, which would have either replaced or incorporated Leene Square), etc. but look at the top-left portion of that map. In 600 and 1000 AD, Guardia castle is nestled next to those mountains. In 1999 AD, the castle is gone, replaced by two small domes, one of which is (presumably) Bangor Dome (as we know that Bangor dome should be in the same location as Guardia castle, and those domes are in the same location as Guardia castle). To note, if Bangor dome is one of those two domes seen in the 1999 map, then the apocalypse seems to have caused significant continental movement (possibly indicating that the tectonic plates have been shattered, resulting in usually land movements); Bangor dome is further south than should be expected. However, to note, it appears that the Medina continent itself shifted significantly, so this is not beyond reason.
To note, one objection to using the 1999 map for analysis is that it does not perfectly match up to the 2300 map; not just in terms of geography but also in terms of structures. None of the domes in 1999 looks exactly like domes in 2300, Lab 16 is not clearly present in 1999, domes aren’t in the same location, etc. However, every time period has significant differences from one another, even the 600/1000 maps. Dorino goes magically missing in 1000 AD, replaced by a mountain, Magus’ island shrinks and gets connected to the Medina continent, Giant’s Claw disappears, and even the peninsula that Toma’s grave would be placed on changes shape. Apparently the face of the planet is highly malleable. It should be noted that every time Lavos ascends or descends from within the planet, the face of the earth changes (this is seen most dramatically in 65,000,000/12,000, but also from 12,000/600, even slight changes from 600/1000, and more dramatic changes from 1999/2300). It may well be that these changes are specifically caused by Lavos traveling through the various strata of the planet’s crust. As for the appearance of new buildings in 2300 that are not present in 1999 AD, that is not known for sure. Lab 16 may be the ruins of the dome that occupies the Truce Village location, or they may be the result of an underground structure being unearthed, or perhaps just a general amalgamation of destruction. At its heart, however, the 1999 AD map is quite similar to the 1000 AD map, and in turn is also similar in numerous ways to the 2300 map.
This absence of Guardia Castle seems to be akin to England with the absence of Parliament, or the United States region with the absence of the White House; without those buildings, one could well assume that the nation those buildings represent is likewise absent.
However, it appears that “Truce village” is still around in 1999AD, possibly indicating that Guardia continued to exist, albeit in a different form. A few other features of note are also present on the 1999AD map that will be discussed here, though their full relevance may be addressed later in the article.
For one, it appears that Dorino has made a return; there is a large dome, rivaling that of “Truce,” right next to the Denadoro Mts. Perhaps this dome later became Trann Dome.
Also of note are the mountains themselves next to this “Dorino Dome”; there is a clear cave entrance. There does not seem to be any reason for this cave entrance to exist: it doesn’t reflect any feature in 600 AD or 1000 AD. It may just be an artifact from earlier stages of development, merely serving to represent the entrance to the Denadoro Mts. However, as there are no caves in 1000 AD, one appears in 1999 AD, and one appears in 2300 AD, it is possible that the 2300 cave is the same as the 1999 AD cave. That cave in 2300 AD is the Sun Palace (if so, then again significant land movements must have occurred). The palace may have risen after the Day of Lavos, or it might have already been excavated in 1999 AD. A curiosity, if nothing else, yet potentially a source of Porrean Power, which in turn may merit a closer look at this possibility.
If one compares the map of Zeal to the map of the Earth from 12000 BC, using the Skyways and Land Bridges to match up the two, and then using the Northern Palace and the Sun Keep to compare that to 600 and 1000 AD, then Medina may be near the buried remains of Enhasa (though these ruins might also be around the northern part of the Choras Continent; tracking the drift of shattered sky-continents is not an exact science), Truce/Guardia may be near the buried ruins of Kajar, and the Sun Palace would in turn seem to correlate well with the southern continent; the Denadoro Mts., specifically.
Additionally, if one attempts to match the map of 12000 with those of 600/1000 AD, the Magic Cave (600 AD) appears to be the same cave that Chrono & Co found themselves in after first coming to 12000 BC (and comparing 600 to 1000, the exit of the Magic Cave correlates to the Heckran Cave). However, this cave might also be what will eventually become Giant’s Claw, as the location also correlates to the Tyrano Lair that Lavos smashes into via gate (the question, then, is how the Fall of Lavos influenced the physical location of the Tyrano Lair; is the Tyrano Lair even in the same physical location where Lavos fell?). Also, and most curiously, Lucca’s island matches the island that the chain for Mt. Woe came out of (and, in turn, the land mass to the north of that does resemble portions of the Guardia region, and the land mass to the south resembles portions on the Porre/Dorino region). While roundabout, if landmarks from the planet in 12,000 map can be connected to 1000 (and similar) maps, and the Zeal map can be connect to the planet map, the Zeal Map can also (with decreasing certainty, unfortunately) be connected with the 1000 AD map. It is not an impossible conclusion, then, that the Sun Palace (and all the resources contained there in) may be present in 1000 under the southern Zenan continent (and, in turn, Porre, but the significance of this will be discussed below).
Importantly and perhaps most shockingly, in 600 and 1000 AD the northern landmass of the Zenan continent is rather lush, but in 1999, “Truce” dome is built on top of a desert. Also, where Guardia castle used to be is a desert and the southern landmass’s desert seems bigger, as does the desert on Melchior’s Land Mass. Apparently, 1999 was having ecological problems, but it appears particularly bad around Truce.
From these map comparisons, we see that Guardia Castle is gone, Leene Square has, at the least, undergone significant changes, and the northern portion of the Zenan continent is suffering from what appears to be an ecological disaster. These factors indicate a decline of the Guardia kingdom itself.
The possibility of the Sun Palace on the southern portion of the Zenan continent and the increased population implied by “Dorino” dome indicates a potential increase of power on that land mass.
Of a brief note, it is sometimes said that since Doan is the leader of Arris Dome, Guardia must have continued into the future. However this is a false assumption; merely being a descendant of royalty and in a position of leadership does not in turn signify the continuance of former power structures. All Doan’s existence tells us is that Marle’s line continues, not that they continue to rule at the head of a state (or rule at the head of the same state).
For the sake of a complete map analysis of these related time zones, allow me to make a few other observations, though they do not directly relate to the present discussion.
1) Another interesting element on 1999 is that the area that had contained Melchior’s house and the Heckran cave have moved closer to the Zenan continent and now are themselves modestly populated (a medium sized dome with a few smaller ones). This area then corresponds to the Keeper’s Dome fairly well.
2) On the 1999 Map, there are roads leading to the western portion of the northern Zenan continent, which implies cities or other structures were in that direction. Additionally, there appears to be no bridges between land masses but a road does dead-end towards Lucca’s island, which possibly indicates flying cars or some other means of traveling that didn’t require a bridge.
One other bit of information that helps us establish a picture of Guardia and Porre in the Original Timeline is the Human/Mystic war. It should be noted that the southern Zenan continent was cut off from the northern landmass for an extended period of time, after Magus’ troops took the Zenan bridge. However, the towns of Dorino and Porre, though cut off from Guardia, survived relatively unscathed. While Magus may have had no reason to specifically address these towns, the Mystics clearly dislike humans enough that some razing of unprotected towns should have occurred. This did not happen, which in turn implies that the towns were not protected (Guardia was poor at guarding Porre, it seems). It may be that a second military force was present on the southern landmass protecting human settlements. Though speculative, the lack of Mystic assaults on Dorino and Porre may indicate that Porre, even in the Original Timeline, had a military presence, and that such a military was, at the least, competent.
From all this it would appear that Guardia was not a solid superpower in the Original Timeline and Porre was not an incapable minor city.
As Kato specifically stated that the rise of Porre was the result of time travel, Porre’s rise couldn’t have happened in this timeline, but Guardia’s fall still may have occurred (especially given enough time).
After Chrono Trigger: Keystone Timeline 1
After the events of Chrono Trigger, as seen in the original release, but before the Time Crash, there have been a lot of changes to the timeline, possibly satisfying Kato’s comment regarding time travel aiding Porre’s rise. Most of these possible influences have already been discussed in the “Rise of Porre” article on the compendium, however allow me to discus these changes in detail to properly establish their significance.
Fiona’s Forest
Most dramatically, Fiona’s Forest is present in 1000 AD in the Post-CT (aka, Keystone T1) timeline it was absent in the Original Timeline (aka, Lavos Timeline). Would this change then have resulted in providing Porre with a boost in resources, allowing them to become a powerful nation? Maybe, but probably not.
Robo’s influence was to cultivate the forest and a shrine was built to Fiona for her efforts in turn. Robo’s inactive form was placed on an altar in that shrine. This indicates that the people of the area supported Robo and Fiona in restoring the forest and saw the forest’s return as a good and desirable thing. In turn, it is quite unlikely that the people of the area would have allowed Porre to strip the forest of its resources. Assuming the nuns and their supporters (and having a shrine suggests a significant degree of support) were reasonably, however, Porre probably was able to perform limited logging and other resource gathering activities.
However, merely having access to resources does not in turn necessitate that a nation will utilize them or utilize them effectively. Africa, for example, is rich with resources; however it has not been since ancient Egypt that a major world power has come from that continent.
One should also note that in 1000 AD, Porre does not appear to have any more room than it did previously for farm lands and the city appears to be the same size. With a slight increase in wood but no increase in food or usable land, Porre seems barely better offer. The forest itself is less of a barrier than a desert between the north and the south, so one would actually expect Guardia and Porre to be on better terms as well.
The Probability of Influence is Medium
Assuming that this even was an influence, then the Significance of Influence is Low
Robo
It has also been suggested that Porre was able to study Robo as he sat in Fiona’s shrine. Again, this is probably not a significant influence contributing to the Rise of Porre. It is unlikely that at any point did Porre take Robo for intensive study, as it would also be unlikely that such an amazing artifact would be returned to its proper place. Likewise, it is unlikely that the nuns would have let researchers examine him extensively on site (for a real world example, consider how difficult it is for researchers to study the Shroud of Turin). Passive observation is the most likely means of Porre studying Robo, but such can only provide a slight inkling of insight and information; hardly enough information to significantly advance robotics and weaponry in Porre.
The presences of robots and cyborgs in 1020 AD (El Nido) are sometimes used to justify this particular influence; however, such in no way requires that Porre (or anyone else) studied Robo while he sat in the shrine. One should not forget that Lucca worked with Luccia (and thus, it is in turn implied, Porre). Lucca herself appears to be the world’s foremost expert on robotics, resulting from her natural talent and experiences while time traveling. The robots in 1020 are most likely just the result of old Dragonian technology studied by the Acacia Dragons (specifically, Luccia and maybe her brother) and possibly Lucca’s own research (but Lucca’s research would still count as an extra-temporal source, so Lucca may be partially responsible for the Rise of Porre).
Probability of Influence: Very Low
Significance of Influence: High
Rainbow Shell, Sun Stone, Masamune, and other Objects of Power
Next, Guardia notably has several powerful artifacts in its possession at the end of Chrono Trigger. Among these are the Masamune (it is unclear if Chrono kept it or if Frog did, thus Guardia acquiring it through the normal progression of time, and it is unclear of when it was cursed), the Rainbow Shell, the Sun Stone, and various items Chrono and Co acquired. Crono, Marle, and Lucca should probably be added to this list as well, as they represent significant sources of power. It is suggested, then, that Porre became jealous of these items, which in turn caused it to become a military power in the hopes of acquiring them.
Yet, at the end of Chrono Trigger, the Sun Stone is of questionable worth; Lucca, Taban, and Melchior already used it to create weapons and armors, so was there anything left? If there was, then it would have been a powerful energy source (it apparently fueled Zeal for a significant portion of time). Yet Lucca is also one of the few individuals in 1000 AD who has a significant understanding of the Sun Stone and how to utilize it; it is not assured that Porre would have recognized its value (or that Guardia would have recognized its value). Indeed, Guardia itself may not have been in control of the Sun Stone at all; last we see of it, it is in Lucca’s house! She may have given this to Guardia or Porre, but more likely, she kept it and studied it. Anyone benefiting from her research, however, may have in turn benefited from the Sun Stone. Considering Lucca’s connection to Luccia, it may be Porre, not Guardia, that benefited most.
Probability of Influence: Very Low
Significance of Influence: Medium
Porre and Dorino could potentially lay claim to the Masamune, which presumably came to be stored in Guardia’s castle (though this isn’t itself definitively stated). The Hero Medal and part of the Masamune were in Porre in 600 AD for a while and the rest of the sword was in the Denadoro Mountains. However, given that the common perception of the time was that the entire sword was in the Denadoro Mts, Dorino, not Porre, had a larger claim to the blade. But it is sometimes thought that Porre absorbed Dorino, and in turn it may have absorbed Dorino’s claims.
Additionally, while in the general geographic region, Porre never actually possessed the blade. It is, to a degree, strange for a nation to go to war over a sword that was never actually in its possession. Indeed, other than being a legendary blade, would Porre have had much of a use of it as anything other than a symbol and possibly a museum relic?
A single sword, even a magic one, is of limited value for nations. It is a large stretch to say that Porre would have invaded over this sword alone.
Probability of Influence: Medium
Significance of Influence: Medium
The Rainbow Shell is interesting as Dorino could lay claim to it, as they funded the finding of it. If Porre absorbed Dorino, then Porre might also feel it has a claim to this artifact and may “want it back.” However, the shell isn’t particularly useful without individuals capable of processing it into weapons and armor. Melchior is the only one, it clearly stated, who can do this easily (Zappa can apparently also process Rainbow Shells, but his work requires shiny materials as well, which can only exist in the Keystone T2 timeline, and it may require for the rainbow shell to have been shattered).
Curiously, it seems that by 1015 the shell had been shattered and pieces of it taken across the land (indicating huge amounts of force were applied to it, possibly during the fall of Guardia, or possibly while researchers were attempting to learn how to process it). This date can be established by the presence of Rainbow Shells in Lucca’s House during the fire (possibly indicating that the shell shattered before the invasion of Porre, as it would otherwise be strange for Porre to leave pieces of such a coveted item in the hands of individuals who are sympathetic to Guardia. However, it is also possible that the shattered Rainbow Shells are not from the Keystone T1 timeline. Some are found in Terra Tower, a Dragonian stronghold that hadn’t been active since the Dragon God was split (or so it is implied). These shells, presumably, were placed there, then, before the Rainbow Shell was found in the Original Timeline. Thus, this might be the rainbow shell from the future (taken back in time by Chronopolis), another rainbow shell altogether, or the rainbow shell from a different dimension.
While the Rainbow Shell would have undoubtedly been pretty, it is incredibly unlikely that Porre would have realized its potential beyond mere myth. Even if Porre did realize the uses of the Rainbow Shell, it is curious that it would have any need for it. Either it could obtain it by invading the world’s strongest superpower, and therefore not need spectral weapons and armors, or it needed it to invade the world’s strongest superpower but didn’t have access to it.
Probability of Influence: Very Low
Significance of Influence: Low
Crono, Marle, and Lucca are potentially the greatest resource to come out of CT; Lucca’s exposure to new ideas propelled her research (she started working on time travel, apparently, and made advancements in robotics) while all three of them developed incredibly potent magics. With spells like Life 2, Haste, Flare, and Luminaire, those three alone could take on large fighting forces. One of the great conundrums of the Porre invasion of Guardia is how these three were overcome. Porre may have desired to eliminate these individuals, but if so, why leave Lucca alive? The three are a good reason why Porre would have been unable to invade Guardia and Lucca’s survival is a good reason why Porre wouldn’t have invaded over them.
Probability of Influence: Low
Significance of Influence: Counter-Productive to the Fall of Guardia or Rise of Porre
All in all, in 1001 AD Guardia was doing quite well, potentially having powerful warriors, powerful energy sources, and maybe potent weapons and armor; this would seem to make it all the more difficult for Porre to invade.
Which, actually, may have been the entire problem.
Guardia’s development may have stopped in 1000. With Chrono, who needs to perfect the Dragon Tank (a prototype so poorly designed that a punk-convict was apparently able to defeat it)? With the ability to create powerful armors, and weapons, who needs to concern themselves overly with developing new forms of warfare? With peace between Guardia and the Mystics, who would have even turned their thoughts towards war?
While Guardia had access to powerful artifacts, those artifacts may have lead Guardia into a state of stagnation.
Political Power from 600 to 1000 AD
There are three other important changes from the original timeline; the Northern Ruins, the Outcome of the Mystic War, and Frog himself.
The Northern Ruins near Choras were haunted in the original timeline yet it became the Hero’s Grave after CT. This change may have led to an increased sense of patriotism and independence, which in turn could have weakened Choras’ dependence on Guardia (reducing the latter’s influence in the world).
Probability of Influence: Low
Significance of Influence: Low
In the original timeline, the Mystic War was won through dumb luck; Magus happened to get himself killed by summoning Lavos, so Guardia was able to pull victory out of the toothless-gums of defeat. But instead, Guardia (in the form of Crono and Co) confronted and defeated him. Perhaps this became for Guardia what the Battle of Marathon was for the Athenians; an important victory, but one that the state would relieve instead of seeking new glories. Athens relived and retold countless times to excuse their failures and actions; perhaps Guardia did likewise, annoying Porre and all its foreign contacts by constantly justifying itself for defeating Magus. This may have had a negative impact on Guardia’s relationship with Porre.
Probability of Influence: Low
Significance of Influence: Low
Frog
And finally, Frog himself returns to his era either as a human or still a frogman, but he has undergone a significant change. He is no longer racked with guilt over Cyrus’ death or hatred for Magus, he is free to be an active force in the world. The effects he then had on the world are immeasurable. However, one might compare the nature of these actions to counterfactual history; how would history have been different if Patton’s carrier had ended with him as a low-level officer? How would history have been different if Napoleon didn’t return from exile? Etc. Frog is 600 AD’s greatest swordsman, a bit of a leader, and he has the ear of Guardia. After Chrono Trigger, he became a powerful individual.
It should not be forgotten that, from the PS release of CT, it appears that King Guardia also “knighted” Frog, which in medieval societies usually included titles to land. Frog may have been a powerful land-owner by the end of CT.
Probability of Influence: Very High
Significance of Influence: Undeterminable (see further discussion below)
Before Chrono Cross: Keystone Timeline 2
After the Time Crash and the establishment of El Nido, new extra-temporal elements come into play. Particularly, all those associated with El Nido. These are usually identified as dragonian technology and elements. However, these items are incredibly unlikely to have caused either the Fall of Guardia or the Rise of Porre. Curiously, despite this unlikelihood, these theories generally seems to be the most accepted ones.
This is not to say that Elements and Dragonian (or possibly even Chronopolian) technology do not have a high significance in the changes that could result from introducing them to the timeline. Both Elements and Technology from El Nido have a very high significance factor.
Yet with the introduction of the possibility of Elements and Dragonian technology, one must remember that FATE is controlling the actions of the people on the islands. For the majority of time since the Time Crash, FATE was specifically manipulating the thoughts and actions of the people of El Nido to prevent them from influencing the rest of the world and possibly changing the time line. Introduction of Elements or Dragonian technology to the mainland, at that time period, would have presented a significant change in history, therefore FATE was, presumably against it, resulting in the people of El Nido being resistant as well.
However, it should be noted that preserving history was not FATE’s foremost goal; Lynx, the physical avatar of FATE, visited mainland Zenan, torched Lucca’s house, and enticed Porre’s interest in the Frozen Flame (and, subsequently, El Nido). FATE’s primary concern was with domination and preserving its own power; preserving the timeline apparently came second. Still, Porre’s influence in El Nido is easy to trace; in Another World it had to send spies into the region to gather any information and it could only invade after the incident at Viper Manor. In Home World, Porre established a presence in El Nido after 1017, when the Acacia Dragoon’s went to the Dead Sea and never returned. Both of these dates are well past the Fall of Guardia. Before that there is no indication that Porre had an influence on the islands; indeed, their behavior towards the Acacia Dragoons indicates that as long as the Dragoons were powerful in El Nido, Porre had to keep out.
Elements also do not correlate well to Porre’s military strategy, it appears. Porre employs heavy weaponry, cannons, metal reinforced ships, and steam power. It is said that necessity is the mother of invention. If Porre had access to a significant number of elements, it would not have needed this technology. When one can cause the earth itself to tremble under an enemy’s feet, one does not need cannons. Indeed, there is no firm indication that Elements are even well known about outside of El Nido. To note, those who come to El Nido from the mainland have a curious tendency to stay in El Nido, possibly indicating that they tried to sample the local color, tried a Record of Fate, and fell under FATE’s control.
Probability of Influence: Incredibly Low
Significance of Influence: Very High
The State of Political Affairs
Curiously the Politics of the world are seldom used to explain the Rise of Porre or the Fall of Guardia, even though the invasion of Guardia was very much a political action (though it was also a military action).
Before talking about the political state of 1020 AD, a look at the political state of 600 AD before, during, and after CT may be useful.
Choras had its own castle, complete with a throne room (included in the pre-release), indicating it had, at one point, been its own nation. However, by 600 AD the region seems to be nominally associated with Guardia (again, in the pre-release the Zenan bridge is noted as being able to be repaired only by the carpenter from Choras). This status appears to be more strongly confirmed in 1000.
It has been suggested that Cyrus may have been from this region, as when he was buried Frog brought him to that location. It is noted, after the ruins become the Hero’s Grave, that Cyrus is the guardian spirit of the region. This could be taken a step further; Cyrus may have been a noble from that area, even possibly a descendent of the ruling class. It is not unusual, historically speaking, for defeated nations and vassal states to send their ruling class to the court of their conquerors, both to serve as soldiers and hostages. Cyrus wasn’t just buried in the Choras region but the ruins of a castle specifically, even in what might have been intended for a throne room (from the middle ages, it was generally only the upper class who were buried in buildings, such as churches).
That Cyrus was sent to Guardia (possibly at a very young age; 5 or so would not have been unheard of) could well conform to such a political system. That Cyrus rose in the ranks and became a trusted officer does not preclude this possibility either; Germans served as body guards for the Roman Emperors, for example. Ability and perceived loyalty is more important than origin.
Given that Cyrus was on good terms with the King and Leene implies that he himself was of noble birth.
The same may apply to Frog; Glenn had significant ties to the Porre Region. He lived in the Cursed Woods when he felt disgraced, visited the city, and even took particular concern for Tata. Like Cyrus, Glenn may have been a noble sent to the Guardia Court.
As noted previously, King Guardia also appears to have knighted Frog, implying that, even if he was not a noble to begin with, he became landed (and Porre would be a likely place for his land to have been).
In the Lavos Timeline, Frog never regains his confidence and, if he was a noble, the Porre region may have been left without an upper class after his death (well, technically since his original disappearance). But after Chrono Trigger, Frog could have returned to the area and lead it. With a leader like Frog, it is quite likely that the Porre region would have prospered. Despite Frog’s role, however, there is no guarantee that relations with Guardia would have continued to be on solid ground after he passed away.
Amended from above:
Probability of Influence: Very High
Significance of Influence: Medium
In Chrono Cross, Garai is noted as being the 13th Grandmaster, Dario being the 14th. This is quite similar to the numeral difference between Yakra I and Yakra XIII, Toma I and Toma XIV, and King Guardia XXI and King Guardia XXXIII, etc. This strongly implies that the 1st Grandmaster was around the 600’s (and thus, that the Acacia Dragoons were established around that time period). This group does not appear to be present in the Original Timeline, but are important to the Keystone 2 timeline. Given that El Nido is unlikely to have effected Porre in the 600’s (possibly, however, given the inherent changes to the future that El Nido’s mere presence may have caused), the Keystone 1 timeline seems to be the most likely timeline for the Acacia Dragoon’s origins. It should be noted that we are quite familiar with the world’s most renown swordsman from that time period; Frog.
We are also told by Karsh that “any dragoon would be hyped” to see the masamune. While legendary, why would the sword hold particular interest for a dragoon? Possibly because it was held by the first Grandmaster. The Einlanzer became the symbol of the grandmaster, but that sword could have only been obtained in the 920’s (when the Acacia Dragoon’s first came to El Nido); therefore, it could not have always been the weapon of the grandmaster. It would be particularly fitting if the Einlanzer had just replaced its “sister sword” as a symbol of power and authority.
Given Frog’s political power and connection to Porre (where the Acacia Dragoon’s came from), it is possible that he is actually the founder.
One might then wonder, if the Acacia Dragoons were founded by Frog, why was the Masamune in Guardia’s possession? The simplest answer is probably in who could wield the Masamune; Frog’s innermost qualities appear to be fairly rare. It is quite likely that between 600 AD and 1000 AD that some Grandmaster wasn’t actually able to wield the sword. Given Frogs relation to Guardia, it is not unreasonable to suppose that the sword would have been sent there for safe keeping, assuming that Frog didn’t just leave the sword with Crono, rather than taking it back to 600 AD.
If Radical Dreamers can be taken as a valid source, the Viper Clan would have come from the “Gerzbeuhle” region, a western territory to the south of Guardia. The cursed woods region is a very probable location of RD’s Viper Mansion, then, as indicated in the Compendium’s own analysis of Radical Dreamers.
It should also be noted that the events surrounding Garai’s Ghost are quite similar to the events surrounding Glenn and Cyrus (seeking the sword resulted in the death of one of the people seeking it, the spirit of that individual was unable to rest causing his burial place to be haunted, that spirit had to be confronted to be put to rest, after that spirit was confronted the Masamune powered up and become the best weapon for that character, etc).
It is also useful to question the relationship between the Acacia Dragoons, the Viper Clan, and Porre. It was the Viper Clan that established themselves on El Nido when the archipelago was discovered by the outside world in 920. It was the Viper Clan, not Porre, that colonized the area. Given that Porre is reduced to spying on the Viper Clan and can only invade El Nido when the Acacia dragoons are distracted or gone, they do not seem to be on good terms. Flash back to the Keystone T1 timeline and the Acacia Dragoons probably existed there as well, and in Porre (as they are from the outside world and the outside world wasn’t aware of El Nido until after the Dragoons were founded). The Acacia Dragoons did not leave the Zenan continent in 920AD, but in the T2 Timeline they did. The removal of a political power from the region is a significant change to history, possibly providing the freedom that the Porre Government needed to develop in a radically new direction and invade Guardia.
It should be noted that the Viper Clan, if Radical Dreamers can be considered a valid source, would have probably existed near the city of Porre. Given the enmity between the two seen in Chrono Cross, the political tensions between the expansionistic elements of the Porre Government and the Viper Clan may have hampered Porre’s militaristic tendencies in the Keystone T1 timeline. With the removal of that tension in the T2 timeline, Porre was left free to develop into a military powerhouse. One might well imagine a real world situation like this if opposition to War Hawks in a nation were to suddenly disappear from the political landscape.
Probability of Influence (removal of Acacia Dragoons): Very High
Significance of Influence (removal of Acacia Dragoons): Very High
Probability of Influence (Frog founding the Acacia Dragoons): Medium
Significance of Influence (Frog founding the Acacia Dragoons): Very High
However, merely being free of a restraining element in the government may not fully explain Porre’s Rise to Power.
Kato indicated that the ultimate cause was outside the original flow of time. Frog’s presence as a restored acting figure in 600AD fits that criteria, barely, as does the appearance of El Nido and the removal of the Viper Clan from Guardia. However, neither of these seem to merit the same sense of an acting agent that Kato’s statement implied. While the above two factors may have been significant, a third influence most likely was required.
Time Traveler
Though the situation was ripe for Porre to become a military powerhouse, there still needs to be that spark that set the Zenan continent ablaze with war.
It is notable that Crono and Marle (and presumably Lucca) were present in Guardia after CT but, though powerful enough to stop Lavos, they were seemingly unable to stop Porre from invading. The simplest explanation for this is that the three did not participate in the ensuing battle.
The cause of this is undeterminable, but possible explanations can be proposed:
If Porre’s rise to power was caused by an influence outside of the original flow of time, these three, better than most, would know the dangers of directly challenging such an influence. By directly opposing this influence, the three might have set themselves up as targets for this influence and, in turn, their personal histories may have then been at stake for being altered. Knowing this, the three instead kept out of the battle (possibly hoping to restore Guardia at a future date from anonymity.
To note, in Lucca’s letter to Kid, she specifically expresses fear that other time travelers may attempt to hurt the three; this fears may have been well founded and born out by reality.
Probability of Influence: High
Significance of Influence: Very High
The three may have already been disposed of by that period (it is notable that none of them are seen in the ensuing battle, yet the ensuing battle isn’t really covered well in canon materials). Perhaps a time traveler already did away with them before Porre even invaded. Or perhaps it was just dumb luck but they may have been visiting Robo, Frog, or Ayla (as CC implies that the various team members continued to meet from time to time, as evident in the pictures in Lucca’s house) when the battle happened.
Probability of Influence: Low
Significance of Influence: Very High
The three may have been directly told not to interfere by a time traveler (the most likely candidate being Belthasar).
Probability of Influence: Medium
Significance of Influence: Very High
Also to note, any such option would satisfy Kato’s comment that Crono and Marle befell some kind of “incident.”
Kato did state that the Fall of Guardia and Rise of Porre were only tangentially related to the story of CC, which is why more about it was not included. To follow this tangent, however, may prove useful.
Guardia, until around 1005, was presumably in possession of the Masamune. A cursed Masamune was needed by Lynx to delay Serge & Squad, and a restored Masamune was needed to cure Kid while also saving Schala, as the Chrono Cross could not be used for both. For Project Kid to work perfectly, then, the Masamune needed to be in the El Nido archipelago. Belthasar is a master planner, he would have presumably been aware of this (indeed, he may well have shuttled back and forth through time, tweaking events until the project was a success, even if he didn’t foreknow the need of the Masamune). It is likely, then, given that the Masamune plays a role in the events of Project Kid, that Belthasar needed to likewise ensure that the Masamune was present for that role. He, then, may well have been the force behind the Rise of Porre and the Fall of Guardia.
Before this possibility is further discussed, objections may be raised. Belthasar, after all, does not appear to be an evil man; he wouldn’t have sacrificed the kingdom of Guardia just to get the Masamune into El Nido. However, Belthasar is responsible for the Time Crash and the subsequent manipulation of the human population in El Nido for around 10,000ish years (not to mention the ruined lives of the original staff of Chronopolis). He is essentially then responsible for the Chronopolis/Dragonopolis war that ensued and any destruction that the Dragonians and Dragon Gods did (and, in turn, any destruction that Humans and Chronopolis did). He engineered FATE, so he could even be said to be responsible for the burning of Lucca’s house. And he manipulated Serge and the others, resulting is Serge loosing his body, Kid getting stabbed, and so forth.
While Belthasar is generally taken to be a “good guy,” his actions far from support this assumption. Above anyone else present in the games, he is the most capable and able of setting in motion the events that led to the Fall of Guardia and the Rise of Porre. Everything else may have just provided him with the tools necessary to conduct his plan.
Probability of Influence: Extremely High
Significance of Influence: Definitive
Alternate Time Traveler
Dalton is sometimes put forward as a possible cause for the Fall of Guardia as well. I am somewhat reluctant to even include him in a discussion, however for the sake of completeness a few words should be said.
Dalton has no known way of getting to the “modern era,” either 600AD, 1000AD, or anything of the sort.
Dalton has no known charisma. Even if he reached the modern era, how would listen to him and put him in a position of power?
Dalton can use magic, however. This could be used to impress individuals and build a power base.
Dalton was repeatedly defeated by Crono & Co. Causing the Fall of Guardia would have broken his loosing streak.
Chrono & Co defeated Dalton several times before. Even if Dalton attempted to cause the Fall of Guardia, they could have easily stopped him.
Dalton is not himself an unusually intelligent individual. He was sucked into his own gate. He lacks the understanding, knowledge, and finesse needed to bring about the downfall of Guardia or to engineer the Rise of Porre.
Probability of Influence: Nearly Non-existent
Significance of Influence: Low
Conclusion
To conclude, the most significant factors towards the Rise of Porre and the Fall of Guardia are (in no particular order):
1) Guardia was already likely to fall, so that the subsequent realization of this in 1005 is not as drastic as is sometimes assumed.
2) Porre was already somewhat militaristic, so that its subsequent rise is not as drastic as is sometimes assumed.
3) The presence of a redeemed Frog post Chrono Trigger.
4) The presence of the Acacia Dragoons on the Zenan mainland in Keystone T1 and their subsequent absence from the Zenan mainland in Keystone T2.
5) Belthasar.
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A really well put together analysis.
It is also congruent (mostly at least) with my own theory, which is that Belthasar is ultimately behind what happened between Porre and Gaurdia (or at the very least, how it happened).
A lot of what happened or was possible in CT and CC leads back to Belthasar (though definitely more so in CC than CT). He is very much of a scientific mind and seems completely capable of sacrificing human life if it means preserving the known reality (since the Time Devourer would have destroyed all space-time, not just the world).
I do not think Belthasar was directly involved in what happened (since he seems to rarely do so) but that he was the one who manipulated circumstances to create the given outcome.
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Thanks. Though, I realized that I didn't include a discussion of technology like I had originally intended to. I still have my notes for that topic, I just have to write something up and incorporate it.
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YES! YES!!! Finally something to back up my Frog founding the Acacia Dragoons theory! An excellent read, and I am deeply in your debt.
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YES! YES!!! Finally something to back up my Frog founding the Acacia Dragoons theory! An excellent read, and I am deeply in your debt.
Would this also give more credence to the theory that Frog is a distant ancestor to Glenn?
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Would this also give more credence to the theory that Frog is a distant ancestor to Glenn?
In a few ways, yes.
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Thought, I just got in from a long business trip, but I will be getting to this VERY SOON...
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YES! YES!!! Finally something to back up my Frog founding the Acacia Dragoons theory! An excellent read, and I am deeply in your debt.
Glad you liked it. However, Frog founding the Acacia Dragoons is based only on circumstantial evidence. Strong circumstantial evidence, I believe, but still not definitive. But given that they don't seem to exist in the Lavos Timeline yet do in Keystone T1, it appears to be quite persuasive.
Even if Frog himself didn't directly found the Acacia Dragoons, his actions post Chrono Trigger seem to be the key that set those events off.
Would this also give more credence to the theory that Frog is a distant ancestor to Glenn?
Not really. At best, all this shows is that they were in the same organization. To claim more than that is like claiming that a soldier in the French military (who happens to be named Napoleon) is related to Napoleon Buonaparte. They might be related, but sharing a name and an organization isn't a legitimate link.
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Finally got around to reading this bad boy. You did a great job, Thought. Some simple cosmetic changes (mainly bolding various theory titles in order to provide better organization) will finalize the article and I'd say this beautiful piece of analysis is ready for publishing. You left no rocks unturned, and that, my friend, is why it's exhaustingly good.
PS - I still plan on PMing you about our previous discussions. I'm going to Scotland in a few days for two weeks, so once I get back, it's on. It's on like Donkey Kong.
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Boo is an international Gentleman Caller of Mystery!
I'm still reading through Thought, but I would like to revisit your analysis of Robo's potential impact on Porre for a moment to add that Grobyc was constructed in the year 994 (http://www.chronocompendium.com/Term/Grobyc.html) according to the Compendium. If this is true, Lucca could not have been instrumental in Porre's robotics programs until after its most nascent stages; I could definitely see Robo's presence in the shrine having played some kind of role in the early developments. However, as you observe, one would be hard-pressed to argue that Porre would take Robo apart and study him, only to reassemble him and hand him back to the forest nuns. Unless the forest nuns were politically influential enough to successfully lobby the Porrean government for Robo's return. Nor does this observation rule out the possibility that discovery of Dragonian robotics alone fueled the Grobyc program.
EDIT: Whoa, Belthasar shuttling back and forth in his Neo-Epoch, just to get things right, and taking countless lives in the process, all for saving Schala. That's just insanely creepy. But potentially the most awesome plot musing ever.
In the Lavos timeline, the player sees Belthasar rambling on about missing Schala if Crono, Marle, and Lucca visit the Keeper's Dome early enough, so we know that she motivated him even then. What is it about Schala that drives Belthasar to such great lengths? The man's obsession with her is most unnatural...
*FW grabs paper and pen, then scratches out the resulting notes because they're just too disturbing*
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It looks like that 994 A.D. date is based off his age of 26. Was he born a cyborg?
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Vehek, I was in the middle of typing such a thought when you beat me to it! So now I have to start over...
Anywho, yeah, Grobyc WAS a cyborg. Thus, he was first a human, with the cybernetics following. As such, I doubt that Grobyc is actually 26 years old. If he's been finished for 26 years, why hasn't he seen more action? Sure, he can be upgraded (as shown by this final tech), but overall he doesn't capable of being a quarter-century old. Most likely the human male that served as the Grobyc template was 26 years old.
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Grobyc was constructed in the year 994 (http://www.chronocompendium.com/Term/Grobyc.html) according to the Compendium. If this is true, Lucca could not have been instrumental in Porre's robotics programs until after its most nascent stages;
Good point; I hadn't taken Grobyc into enough consideration, I think. But that would be rather strange, if Grobyc was constructed in 994, as Luccia, who worked on him, would have been 2 at the time. Yet if Grobyc was still being worked on 16ish years later, that is itself somewhat strange (994 then might be better termed the project start date, but not the "birth" of Grobyc as we know him). Her brother also worked on him, though we don't know his age, generally siblings are born within 10 years of each other (unless they had other siblings in between). For her brother to have been old enough during his original construction (even if Luccia came in several years later), there would have needed to have been around a 16 year gap (unusual, but not impossible).
However, as others have pointed out, Grobyc's age and date of creation may not coincide (indeed, it is unlikely that they would). Being a cyborg doesn't stop the biological components from aging (to my knowledge, at least). Unless the mechanical parts were being constantly replaced, he must have already reached adulthood before he became a cyborg. So probably around 1010 is when man became machine ... power extreme! (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Centurions_%28TV_series%29)
Nor does this observation rule out the possibility that discovery of Dragonian robotics alone fueled the Grobyc program.
True, but FATE would seem to rule out that possibility (unless Grobyc was constructed on El Nido). FATE's goal was to keep the rest of the world from being influenced by El Nido, so is unlikely that FATE would have let dragonian robotics out of the islands. But perhaps I am giving FATE's abilities too much credit?
Now Zealean technology, that seems more likely (especially given the comment about Grobyc's level 7 tech being related to ruins that Porre was excavating). Unfortunately, as noted, I forgot to include a discussion of technology. I am still working on that, but I hope to have something next week.
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sorry for my grammatical problems becouse English is not my native language
well about the fall of Guardia I´m 100 percent agree but I also believe that Guardia kingdom was rebuilt because when you died against lavos ( see that ending in chrono trigger) the operator and supervisor are too similar with Guardia guards. Now theoretical if some one rebuilt Guardia kingdom the problem is where because porre dominate zenan but all of us remember the whirlpool it a possibility that many people escape from the attack of porre and it seems that medina had good relationship with Guardia because truce had planed built a ferry. so medina people help truce people offering a safe land but soon the people truce people began to rebuild Guardia kingdom and the place of the new kindom would be near of melchor house, now in the video you can see a great building in Ex melchor house and this building it´s not like a comun dome like truce so there is a chance that dome could be the new guardia castle, beside in chrono cross are plenty reference (not direct reference ) of Guardia Kingdom , but in the end is just a theory
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Memento, quia pulvis es et in pulverem reverteris
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Thought, I've noted your analysis of FATE's desire to keep El Nidoans cooped up in their archipelago, and would like to offer something that is, if not a rebuttal, at least an addendum. Compendium records strongly indicate that Radius and Garai may have discovered the corrupted Masamune on the Zenan mainland (specifically South Zenan, in the Denadoro Mountains). (http://www.chronocompendium.com/Term/Masamune_%28Location_of%29.html) However, one could take the fact that the Divine Dragoon Falls background is used for the scene literally. Indisputable proof of the Acacia Dragoons' presence on the Zenan mainland is in the script:
Karsh:
The general [Viper] is the head of
the Viper clan and has governed
these islands for generations.
Karsh:
But that's not all.
When he was ordered to
take up a new post
on the main continent,
he made quite an impact
as the leader of the
Acacia Dragoons and
was promoted to general.
Karsh:
He has retired from the
army since then and currently
serves as the lord of El Nido.
Thus, people presumably born in El Nido *have* been permitted by FATE to leave. The script segment is from Karsh's dialogue during the infiltration of Viper Manor, BTW, which is in Another World, so FATE is definitely present in the universe in which Karsh reports this.
Thus, we have the question of whether General Viper could have been equipped with Elements during his service on the mainland. This in turn depends on when Elements were first discovered; I could have sworn there was a Compendium encyclopedia entry on that subject, but now I can't find it; anyone know?
Regardless, the point of this post is to resurrect the question of whether the inhabitants of El Nido had some sort of free will to exit the archipelago. The evidence presented thus far indicates, at the very least, that FATE is not averse to allowing residents of El Nido to leave the area if such travels suit FATE's purposes.
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Somewhere in the game they said that one could only enter/exit El Nido if the weather conditions were correct (I think it had something to do with the tides).
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FaustWolf: While General Viper was born in El Nido, the Viper Clan itself comes from Zenan Mainland, I guess that people like Norris, Viper, and such, do not believe in the Goddess of Fate, don't use the Records of Fate, and don't get controled by them.
Isn't it just Chronopolis descendants who get controlled by FATE? The Viper Clan is an invasor to the land, and thus out of FATE's control.
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I always assumed General Viper WAS from El Nido - and that he was just a General for the Porre military. Similar to older European military views - although we was from the "small island chain" of El Nido, he was granted a position in the Porre military (mostly, probably for regional alliances).
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Interesting, I hadn't taken into consideration how cultural factors might play into FATE's control over El Nido's inhabitants. I distinctly remember someone saying that travel to/from the islands depended on the weather or ocean currents as Boo earlier reported, and am now wondering who said it exactly -- was it someone in Arni or Guldove (more likely to engage in Goddess worship, perhaps, and be controlled) or someone in Termina? It might provide circumstantial evidence one way or the other.
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The following quote is from the script on the compendium. It is mentioned by Doc shortly after Kid is poisoned and the group is trying to think of where to find Hydra humor and it is mentioned that there is some on the mainland.
...That is not possible.
The currents of El Nido are
extremely dangerous, this
time of year.
It is highly improbable
to cross the sea unless you
are on a large vessel...
Something else I found interesting is a quote from Steena about settlers coming to El Nido form the mainland quite some time ago.
But several hundred years have
passed since settlers from the
mainland came to El Nido.
The only Dragons that can
be seen today are the
White and Black Dragons.
No one knows the location
of the other Dragon Gods...
Also, in the character bio it states that Doc, Skelly, Greco, Radius Zappa, Lucia, Marcy, and Guile all originated on the Zenan mainland. This would seem to support the idea that there is a lot more travel between the mainland and El Nido than I originally though.
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Sorry I'm a little late to the discussion, but I've been pondering the various points.
First, I think it might be beneficial to note that there is a difference between FATE keeping El Nido (and in turn, Elements, Dragonian Technology, and any Chronopolis technology that might be laying around) from influencing the timeline and Fate keeping El Nidonites cooped up on the archipelago. One does not necessitate the other; indeed, it is entirely possible that keeping the El Nidonites cooped up would have been counter-productive for FATE. If word gets around that no one leaves El Nido, ever... well that attracts attention. Consider the real-world Bermuda Triangle: it is no different than any other patch of sea, but it has a reputation, so people specifically visit it for that reason. If FATE never let anyone leave, it might affect the timeline more than if it did let people leave.
The question then is, to what extent might FATE control the events once outside El Nido. It seems like it would have been simple enough for FATE to preprogram General Viper and the others to keep their elements a secret (or, even if not a secret, in some way to prevent the mainlanders from getting too interested). Of course, FATE would have also had the power to convince the Acacia dragoons just not to take elements; the impression I got from the Four Divas was that it was their innate fighting prowess, not their use of elements, that made them famous.
Random aside... if we are to assume that elements might have been exported to the mainland, might not at least one or two Records of Fate been exported as well? It not, why not? But if so, wouldn't that possibly extend FATE's influence (and in turn, extend FATE's abilities to prevent changes to the timeline)? Could FATE then be controlling not just the El Nidonites but important figures on the mainland (as presumably owning a Record of Fate would require wealth and wealth usually translates into power)?
Radical Blues, while Viper and the others might not use the Records of Fate, it should be noted that such devices exist inside Viper Mansion, implying that some of the Acacia Dragoons do, in fact, use them. Given that they've been in the area around 100 years, one would also assume some degree of intermarriage as well. I suppose it is a question of how much the culture of the area influenced them. Perhaps I am wrong, but it would seem like using a RoF (not to be confused with ROUS's) is enough to get one "hooked," so even a random "sampling of the local flavor" would have drawn the Acacia Dragoons into FATE's computery clutches.
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I have to agree that Fate's keeping El Nido a total secret is counter-productive. But then, elements would have to be eventually exported out to the mainland, and if the Records were also exported, then might have Fate had a hand in Guardia's fall? Fate was clearly from outside the normal time.. Although, it would seem that Fate would not have any motive for doing so..
And another point: the people of El Nido only used small water craft to do their island hopping, such as Korcha's boat. if that were so, then Fate does not need to enforce a travel ban, since the currents could only be passed by large ships which could only have come from Porre. Geographical limits would work to Fate's favor in keeping her citizens safe.
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Something just occured to me that I will probably think about more and try to tie into this article:
The Black Omen may be responsible for (or at least influenced) the Rise of Porre. While it is generally assumed that the Black Omen was smashed in 12000 BC and Lavos was killed, it is possible that Armagedon Branch is more accurate and so the BO would still be present in 1000 AD. I certainly have to think on this one more.
And as an FYI, I am still working on updating the article with a discussion on technology (and now a more indepth discussion of FATE and how confined el nidonites are). Unfortunately I've misplaced the file I was working on recently, so I am starting over.
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I look forward to reading it, Thought. Especially after your recently published Frozen Flame research.
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I look forward to reading it, Thought. Especially after your recently published Frozen Flame research.
Well, me too. But it seems unlikely to me that the BO is somehow responsible for the rise of Porre. If it had that kind of far reaching effect on Porre, why did not profoundly alter human history between 12000BC and 600AD? and Porre's citizens had to be able to make contact with the Omen or whoever is inside of the it for the BO to able to influence them, which is also unlikely..
Maybe i'll just wait for your full analysis on the matter though... :)
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I get back, it's on. It's on like Donkey Kong.
Why am I aroused?
No, but seriously.....I haven't had a chance to read this. But, I'm now quite interested to partake in your deep and thorough analysis! Just can't right now....got class soon. :lee:
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Um, anything on that article yet, Thought?
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Guardia is the only place that the Masamune could have really ended up. Granted Frog didn't live in Truce, but he was on such great terms with the royal line (from all ages apparently) that Guardia is the only place he could logically trust it. At the very least, it would sit for some four hundred years until Crono comes into the picture and could safeguard it.
I know that Lucca at least was very aware of the significance of time traveling and what might happen if one interfered. But I don't think that, if the "outside influence" was Belthazar that it would have been as straightforward as him telling them to back away or them simply backing away. Motivations are harder to gauge. If they realized that their interference with time had somehow caused Porre's rise and Guardia's fall, what would they have done? Sat back?
That never seemed Crono and Co's style.
There has to be more behind it. Just like the Telepod and the escape from the Chancellor lead to the discovery of Lavos and a larger adventure, so the Rise of Porre naturally must have lead to some bigger threat. Direct conflict with this mysterious traveler.
Honestly, I don't see Belthezar as being so All Knowing as being able to determine where the Masamune had to be in order for it to block Serge and thus make Serge seek out the Einlanzer. You could attempt to extend things further and suggest that in some insane, half crazed extradimensional way that the old Guru was the Entity and caused Chrono Trigger. Granted he had a lot of foreknowledge.
But the Rise of Porre does not seem so essential to the plot of Chrono Cross and the defeat of the Time Devourer. The Acacia Dragoons are important, certainly. General Viper. Chronopolis, Fate, and Lynx. But Porre? I don't know. Not enough for Belthezar to concern himself specifically.
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Um, anything on that article yet, Thought?
Sort of. I had actually forgotten about working on it, until you mentioned it (at which point I face-palmed). I've been working on it, albeit incredibly slowly (I think sediment has begun to form on the file), since. I am actually currently pondering if the changes I am making are significant enough to merit the addition of the phrase "Second Edition."
However, when I do finally get that article ready, there will, at the very least, be three improvements: 1) A discussion on the role of technology (... or monologue, I guess, but in academia monologues are called discussions), 2) actual map overlays (for the section on comparing locations across time), and 3) revised text (correcting spelling and grammar, rephrasing awkward sentences, etc).
Guardia is the only place that the Masamune could have really ended up. Granted Frog didn't live in Truce, but he was on such great terms with the royal line (from all ages apparently) that Guardia is the only place he could logically trust it. At the very least, it would sit for some four hundred years until Crono comes into the picture and could safeguard it.
Don't Masa and Mune get a say in the matter? They are better guards of the blade than Guardia could offer.
But the Rise of Porre does not seem so essential to the plot of Chrono Cross and the defeat of the Time Devourer. The Acacia Dragoons are important, certainly. General Viper. Chronopolis, Fate, and Lynx. But Porre? I don't know. Not enough for Belthezar to concern himself specifically.
Actually, that is exactly why we know so little about the Fall of Guardia. I believe Kato said that there was more planned, but that it wasn't included in the game because it wasn't important to the story. But then again, the nature of the Time Crash wasn't really explained either, and likewise it wasn't that important to the plot (the nature of the Time Crash, not the Time Crash itself).
And you've also hit on one of the problems with Chrono Cross; Project Kid, as presented by Belthasar, is too complex and exacting to be believable.
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Um, anything on that article yet, Thought?
Sort of. I had actually forgotten about working on it, until you mentioned it (at which point I face-palmed). I've been working on it, albeit incredibly slowly (I think sediment has begun to form on the file), since. I am actually currently pondering if the changes I am making are significant enough to merit the addition of the phrase "Second Edition."
However, when I do finally get that article ready, there will, at the very least, be three improvements: 1) A discussion on the role of technology (... or monologue, I guess, but in academia monologues are called discussions), 2) actual map overlays (for the section on comparing locations across time), and 3) revised text (correcting spelling and grammar, rephrasing awkward sentences, etc).
Alright.. Still looking forward to it.. I would have tried to do my own analysis if not for the tons of schoolwork i have to face.. I live in the Philippines, where classes just started about a month ago, while you guys in the west are just stretching up for your respective vacations.. In any case, your word would still be better than mine..
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Don't let my analysis stop you from your own! None of this is canon, everything is still up for debate.
Though, as a side note, I'm out of school so I not longer get those nice summer vacations. Hence, I am always busy with sometime and in turn always slow on everything.
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Don't let my analysis stop you from your own! None of this is canon, everything is still up for debate.
Though, as a side note, I'm out of school so I not longer get those nice summer vacations. Hence, I am always busy with sometime and in turn always slow on everything.
So, you are already working, huh? Oh well, long ways to go for me... And, i think i'll just wait for your analysis. I am rather busy too, and the first wave of exams are coming..
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Don't Masa and Mune get a say in the matter? They are better guards of the blade than Guardia could offer.
Hasn't it been said that Masa and Mune don't really give a hoot what they're used for, so anyone's will can be used to good or evil ends? The fact that they don't "guard" themselves also led to their in-game corruption, and could explain why they're referred to as demonic...
And you've also hit on one of the problems with Chrono Cross; Project Kid, as presented by Belthasar, is too complex and exacting to be believable.
Especially considering he did it all without even talking to the former cast about it, even though they have tons of experience fighting the very creature he was working against. Just... WHAT? Old guy's nuts, no matter the timeline, that's the only explanation.
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Yeah I always found that guy weird in Chrono Cross especially. First time you see him in Viper Manor's Library. Well, the first time I played I didn't realize who we was, since he was so out of place and it was ages since I played CT, but after learning that and the entire CC story I got kinda pissed off with him. He acts like he doesn't know jack and like a senile old guy. Like that line after the fight with Marcy: "Ho ho ho, I did not think you would be able to defeat Marcy." I really had something like: "Yeah right, that's why you created this entire damn project".
But anyway enough about him :D
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An interesting read, but we all know now that when Dalton was sucked into his own portal he arrived in 1000 AD and somehow entered the dimensional vortex whereupon he lost again to Crono's crew. Then he vowed to build up a military in Porre. Thus 99% of your speculation is false. Porre was not already militant (Dalton made them that way). He may have had several of Balthasar's plans for the blackbird, the Epoch some Golems or something with him, or commited to memory. Even if he didn't have charisma, remember Porre's Mayor is a selfish bastard, and would probably listen if Dalton wanted to make him a King. (Assuming that your Jerky present to his ancestor doesn't have an effect on 20 generations of people). Yea, he gave you back the sun stone, but that's cuz he didn't know how to use it. Dalton could have promised him the world.
Porre is filled with liars and sneaks. From the Bastard Mayor to Tata.
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Yeah I always found that guy weird in Chrono Cross especially. First time you see him in Viper Manor's Library. Well, the first time I played I didn't realize who we was, since he was so out of place and it was ages since I played CT, but after learning that and the entire CC story I got kinda pissed off with him. He acts like he doesn't know jack and like a senile old guy. Like that line after the fight with Marcy: "Ho ho ho, I did not think you would be able to defeat Marcy." I really had something like: "Yeah right, that's why you created this entire damn project".
But anyway enough about him :D
It seems Lynx(or FATE) don't know what Belthasar looks like? Or he will recognize him in Viper Manor.
But that's strange, since Belthasar is the first curator of that research center.
Lynx:
Dr. Lucca Ashtear...
Unbelievably intelligent,
and incredibly enthusiastic.
You might even go so far as
to call her a mad scientist.
Of course I don't believe
it was Lucca alone that
devised this plan.
I'm sure the first curator
of this research center,
a man named Belthasar,
had a hand in it, too.
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It's possible that he wasn't aware of Belthasar's presence there. It doesn't seem like Lynx has been in the manor for very long yet, and even if he were, there wouldn't be much reason for him to go to the library. I'm guessing the general just took Belthasar in as he though he would be a nice advisor or whatever. Actually, it's strange that Viper doesn't ever mention Belthasar himself. I think Lynx would know what Belthasar looks like.
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Yeah, so that old guy is really lucky(or he will say of course, that's also inside his plan.)
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DALTON DID IT!
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DALTON DID IT!
WTF? What's the point behind this?
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DALTON DID IT!
WTF? What's the point behind this?
The thread title is speculation on the fall of Guardia and rise of Porre. In CT DS, Dalton is responsible for that.
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True, but what real point was there in just shouting it out? I just as easily could have just replied saying "NO SHIT SHERLOCK" instead of asking for the point.
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Yeah Dalton did it. I think most of us know that by now. We're now at the point where we can speculate how he did it.
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Exactly. Any ideas for this thread?
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Well, the mayor was a greedy bastard, and Dalton may have had some scientific knowledge, etc. He recognizes the Epoch on sight and says it matched Balthazar's design.
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He wasn't greedy at the end of Trigger. Part of the Sun Stone Sidequest was changing the mayor from a greedy money hog to a generous alms giver so you could get the Moon Stone back from him.
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He wasn't greedy at the end of Trigger. Part of the Sun Stone Sidequest was changing the mayor from a greedy money hog to a generous alms giver so you could get the Moon Stone back from him.
Well, that quest is optional.
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That doesn't mean it's not canon. Everything after you visit the End of Time for the first time is optional because you can just take the bucket and kill Lavos and voila end of the game.
Anyway even if he's a nice person doesn't mean he can't be convinced to start a war.
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Well, we are not sure Porre's mayor has something to do with the Fall of Gardia event any way.
Maybe he's already dead.
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Do you really think free Jerky given to someone who lived in the same house 400 years before would have that much effect?
LOL
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Well apparently it did 'cause before you give the Jerky he'll be full of shit and lie to you about not having the sunstone and if you do give the Jerky he'll give the stone without a moment's hesitation
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Kill him and grab the sunstone, maybe that's the best solution. lol
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The people in 600 AD weren't greedy, so he didn't learn that from them before.
It's his innate nature. Sure he gave the sunstone but that's cuz he doesn't know how to use it.
He talks about some traveler taking it to his house. It was DALTON!
WOOT
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He talks about some traveler taking it to his house. It was DALTON!
(http://img180.imageshack.us/img180/2879/facepalmyd3.jpg)
That is getting annoying.
Regardless, it is plausible, so I invoke the Statistic Law Of Facts.
PROVE IT OR BULLSHIT!!!
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It was a joke dingus.
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Dalton: Hey Mr. Nice Porre Man, can I borrow your army for a sec?
Mayor: Sure, friend! I don't know why we have that old thing lying around, anyway.
Dalton: ALL ACCORDING TO KEIKAKU
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Dalton: Hey Mr. Nice Porre Man, can I borrow your army for a sec?
Mayor: Sure, friend! I don't know why we have that old thing lying around, anyway.
Dalton: ALL ACCORDING TO KEIKAKU
I agree this is both new and interesting
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What if Dalton just usurped the mayor in a political power struggle, or gained his trust as a Prime Minster and now rules that way?
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Wouldn't really be hard for Dalton, who can use magic and summon golems to gain control of Porre, population 12, now would it?
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I know you're kinda joking, but always assume that there are more people in a civilization than an RPG depicts. Dalton has a lot of power at his command, but I don't think he's in a position to force power (by himself, at that) in Porre's time and place, given that a world power is right north, and that Porre probably had a sizable population or even army themselves. He probably got close to someone in power and went from there.
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Two things to note:
1) The original analysis was written before CTDS was even mentioned, let alone released. Speaks a little of my abilities to analyze, since I thought Dalton was the least likely but he turns out to be the cause (though I am curious if Kato might have been retconning a bit there).
2) We don't know in what time period Dalton began the downfall of Guardia. Might have been in 1000, might have been in 600, he might have traveled between the two, etc. Thus, he might have taken over Porre before the Mayor we saw in CT ever came to power.
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Two things to note:
1) The original analysis was written before CTDS was even mentioned, let alone released. Speaks a little of my abilities to analyze, since I thought Dalton was the least likely but he turns out to be the cause (though I am curious if Kato might have been retconning a bit there).
2) We don't know in what time period Dalton began the downfall of Guardia. Might have been in 1000, might have been in 600, he might have traveled between the two, etc. Thus, he might have taken over Porre before the Mayor we saw in CT ever came to power.
1) yea... ok makes sense
2) Dalton is found in the dimensional vortex, 1000AD, which we know exits to 1000AD. Guardia ends in 1005AD. It's pretty clear that he starts in 1000AD or sometime after.
One might say(to argue against me).. how did he get there in the first place? Doesn't his presence in 1000AD prove that he knows how to time travel?
Sure, but it certainly wouldn't be hard to explain (that he's stuck in 1000AD). He was standing on the epoch when he was sucked into his portal, and originall that's the last we saw of him. Perhaps his proximity with the epoch, Lucca's gate key or the pendant, or all three made the portal end up there. It wouldn't be so difficult to suggest that he was stranded in 1000AD.
But then again, if the makers want him to be able to travel time at will, then that won't be too hard either.
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2) Dalton is found in the dimensional vortex, 1000AD, which we know exits to 1000AD. Guardia ends in 1005AD. It's pretty clear that he starts in 1000AD or sometime after. One might say.. how did he get there in the first place? Doesn't his presence in 1000AD prove that he knows about time travel? Sure, but it certainly wouldn't be hard to explain. He was standing on the epoch when he was sucked into his portal, and originall that's the last we saw of him. Perhaps his proximity with the epoch, Lucca's gate key or the pendant, or all three made the portal end up there. It wouldn't be so difficult to suggest that he was stranded in 1000AD. But then again, it wouldn't be so difficult to suggest otherwise.
No, his presence does not prove that he knows about time travel any more than Marle's appearance originally in 600 AD proves that she knew about time travel. But it does seem probable (since one would otherwise suspect he was stranded in 12,000 BC, hence the reason he used to be thought to have been an unlikely candidate for the fall of Guardia). The difficulty is in the manner of his transportation. Was it a one-way trip? Can he travel through time at will? etc.
He vowed to destory Guardia in 1000ish, but if he has access to time travel, then the when is questionable.
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Maybe that will never have a clear answer until we know the origin of those Dimentional Votices.
Maybe they have something to do with Dalton's time travel.
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No, his presence does not prove that he knows about time travel any more than Marle's appearance originally in 600 AD proves that she knew about time travel. But it does seem probable (since one would otherwise suspect he was stranded in 12,000 BC, hence the reason he used to be thought to have been an unlikely candidate for the fall of Guardia). The difficulty is in the manner of his transportation. Was it a one-way trip? Can he travel through time at will? etc.
He vowed to destory Guardia in 1000ish, but if he has access to time travel, then the when is questionable.
That's exactly what I was saying. I think he has no idea how to travel through time and he's stranded in 1000AD. Otherwise, why bother with Porre? Go back to Zeal and kill Crono's crew while they are in captivity!.
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It could be that he's more of the kind of person that likes to attack the heart. Kill those who are close to them, in order to get to them. But I agree, it seems unlikely that he is able to time travel. It's impossible without gates or a time machine.
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But I agree, it seems unlikely that he is able to time travel. It's impossible without gates or a time machine.
Ah, but how did he get from 12,000BC to 1000AD? Time travel. Perhaps he fell into the Temporal Vortex from the Golem Catastrophe, perhaps not; without more information, it is difficult to say when.
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But I agree, it seems unlikely that he is able to time travel. It's impossible without gates or a time machine.
Ah, but how did he get from 12,000BC to 1000AD? Time travel. Perhaps he fell into the Temporal Vortex from the Golem Catastrophe, perhaps not; without more information, it is difficult to say when.
Yes but that doesn't mean he's able to time travel. Same thing with the Guru's. Just because they fell into a timegate at one point in their lives doesn't mean they can timetravel (except for Belthasar who has in fact a time machine, and maybe Gaspar by using the gates)
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...which brings me to a rather sinister question --
Oh snap! There's a Picard facepalm smiley officially incorporated into the forums now!! I just noticed this.
Ahem, where was I? Oh, yeah -- could the Fall of Guardia have been necessary for the completion of Project Kid in any way? CT:DS hints that Eclipse Magus may have been working in tandem with Belthasar, Magus trying to reach the DBT and Belthasar just trying to get Schala awake so she could hear Serge's cry and create Kid. Who else might Belthasar have been working with to lay the exact conditions most conducive to Project Kid?
Dalton's time traveling capabilities would be much augmented with Belthasar's help, no? Maybe he lent our Dalton a "Neo Dalton Imperial"? The Germans sent Lenin to Russia during WWI with the great hope that he would start a socialist revolution there...
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Belthasar again? Oh, that must be a cruel story.
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Well it would seem Guardia had to fall for the Masamune to get into El Nido (and possibly for it to be corrupted). It was thus needed to delay Serge and the others for a time.
Still, it is hard to believe Belthasar would engineer the downfall of Guardia just to get a stop sign.
As a side note, if the Temporal Vortex exists outside the normal flow of time (that is, if it is like The End of Time and subject only to Time Error, and not Normal Time), then he could have well existed it in any period.