Chrono Compendium
Enhasa Halls - Chrono Series Analysis => Characters, Plot, and Themes => Topic started by: ZeaLitY on May 30, 2004, 06:59:05 pm
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Masa and Mune come from Melchior's dreams. They're the physical manifestation of his dreams I guess. It says somewhere in the game that the sleeping dragoon in Viper Manor is dreaming of Turnip, and that is why Turnip exists. So I guess that means Turnip is the physical manifestation of that dragoon's dreams. Does that mean Turnip is related to Masa and Mune? If not then why does Turnip exist at all?
Then ensued a debate over whether Masa and Mune are the literal manifestations of Melchior's dreams. I say because they're unique creatures and it is directly stated that they embody his dreams, they are probably literal in that sense.
Here's the juice:
Zzzz... Zzzz...
I know-eth this man.
This view!
This is the same place that show-eth up in mine dream!
In that dream, I actually live-eth another life as this soldier!
I hope I don't disappear-eth when this man wake-eth up.
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Who says Turnip is the only case of a creature spawning from one's dreams in Cross? Perhaps all the creatures roaming El Nido (or at least a good deal of them) are really just people's dreams. We could never know, and the suspense would just kill us.
Then there's Doreen, who seems to be the sibling of Masa and Mune; I think this is merely suggesting that Doreen is also the product of a dream. This line of thought opens up a whole new line of questions about the Chronoverse, and brings into light just how important dreams may be.
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Argh.
I'm sure everyone has said or thought this at some point, but I really hate the horde of characters introduced in CC.
Personally, I would like to explain this one as being an easy way to introduce/tie-in another near-pointless character - similiarly to that alien you can get after taking something out of his UFO. (However that character joined your party. I forget.) That just doesn't seem to fit with the universe CT was looking to create. I dunno, maybe that's just me.
From reading the quote you've provided, it doesn't necessarily state Turnip came into being as a result of the Dragoon's dream. It looks as if you could easily infer that - but what sort of character was Turnip? I forget. Perhaps this is just Turnip being overly philosophical, I dunno.
I definately took Masa & Mune as literal manifestations of Melchior's dreams. Given the power of Dreamstone/Lavos, creating a weapon with a "conscience" or a "soul" doesn't seem to be beyond what's reasonable.
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I still don't think we can 100% say, Masa and Mune are literal physical forms of Melchior's dreams. As in his dreams when he is sleeping.
It's possible it could be the kind of dream like when a little boy says he dreams of becoming a baseball player when he's older.
Anyways, Melchior had this dream sword, and these 2 guys could fulfill it. That's possibly what they could be. I'm just stating possibilities, I'm not trying to start an argument.
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Yes, I'm wondering if Doreen would necessarily be his dream as well, since she is related to Masa and Mune. It seems that in Turnip's case, he would disappear when the Acacia Dragoon awoke; however, Mastermune are constant beings -- though they can perform ludicrously special things, such as taking the form of a sword and enabling time travel (or passage to one's mind).
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Maybe they are just some kind of Bodisattvas/Buddhas (beings who achieved a higher state of existence). They come from Zeal, where philosophy and meditation is very developped, and they seem to be immortal.
Doreen has this very Buddhist-like speech :
[Doreen]
This is the eternal kingdom of Zeal,
where dreams can come true.
But at what price?
Am I a butterfly dreaming I'm a man...
Or a bowling ball dreaming I'm a plate
of sashimi?
Never assume that what you see and
feel is real!
I'm Doreen.
Seek the hidden path, and open the
doors of knowledge, each in turn.
and Masa and Mune acts as if they are higher than humans :
MUNE: Humans are so...silly!
It's how you USE the sword that's
important...not who owns it!
MASA: You can't even understand
something as simple as that.
That's why you're human.
They don't seem to involve themselves much in human affairs too, besides for their only purpose (destroying the Mammon Machine, killing Magus, killing Lavos). Masa and Mune helped Serge to wake Kid from her dream, but they weren't that enthusiastic about that. Beside their bit of selfishness, they act as if they haven't the right to interfer into human stuff :
Masa: I wonder what happened? Do you think we should help her?
Mune: Nah, it's not our job.
Masa: Yeah, I guess so. It's probably out of our league, anyway.
[...]
Doreen: We're going to lend you our powers for a little bit.
Mune: We're sending you back to the past where the princess is bound.
Masa: We only have 1 chance.
hmm, you know, it makes me think about Stargate SG-1...
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It's also very possible that the soldier is the result of Turnip's dream given those quotes.
I'd say Masa, Mune, and Doreen are all representations of Melechoir's dreams...That they were born from his dreams, but do not literally consist of his dreams. If they did, how could they exist in 600 A.D., when he was not around to be dreaming?
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Although I'm not particularly for the literal sense of Masa&Mune being his dreams, I believe that the person dreaming does not have to be present after the dreams manifest themselves.
Although, like I said, I don't believe they're literally Melchior's dreams. Did we ever get a re-translation on that quote of theirs? I believe that with Masa&Mune, they could fulfill Melchior's dreams, and in that sense they ARE his dreams come true.
Maybe they really are just bowling balls? Hmmm? :roll:
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Had a discussion with Zeality a while back... This is a little off for this topic, but couldn't Crono perhaps be the Planet's dreams? I mean, he has little free will... Except in cutscenes, he's completely controlled, silent, and obedient... (I know, just a game. So sue me.)
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I think it's safe to say he has little free will BECAUSE of the Planet/Entity, but not that he either is a physical manifestation. I mean, he's got a mom, right? Although...I suppose the Planet/Entity could be his father under those supositions???
Mostly he's there so you can make choices in the game...Although most choices you can't work against...There are some you can. Like when Marle comes back from the DBT (or where-ever it was) for instance.
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Somewhere else on the forum (not sure the thread, sorry) someone gives the text from the Chrono Cross lighter. It mentions the Planet's dream defeating Lavos. It's possible Crono is that dream, it would lend even more credibility to the Crono as a literary Christlike figure Xathael had made when he still ran the Chrono Trigger Testament.
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The planet/Entity's dream was the defeat of Lavos. Crono was just the means to an end. Whether or not he was created for that sole purpose remains to be seen...It doesn't sound all that plausible though...Lucca & him are friends beforehand. I could think this if Crono suddenly showed up out of nowhere somewhere along the lines of the Millenial Fair, where the planet/Entity seems to step in...but...I just don't see that connection.
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If Crono died in the fall of Guardia, then that makes it more probable that the be all and end all of his existence was the fight against Lavos. Having accomplished that goal, his purpose to the Planet was over, and his life was no longer of any particular consequence. If he died, I think it makes it more liable that the Planet "made" him to defeat Lavos. After all, there is absolutely no mention of Crono even having a father.
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Yeah so he just was made out of dust in the wind. Of course he had a father, but even if he did, he's of no importance.
Also where in the game does it say Crono is the entity's dream? Please use words like "probably" and "hypothetically" please.
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Yeah so he just was made out of dust in the wind. Of course he had a father, but even if he did, he's of no importance.
Also where in the game does it say Crono is the entity's dream? Please use words like "probably" and "hypothetically" please.
I have a point on the Crono origins.
We dont know whos is his father but Crono fight style have too much in common with some of the Mystics like Slash, Free Lancers and others.
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But the Fall happened FIVE YEARS after the events of Trigger and the downfall of Lavos...I don't see the connection there either...Not to mention that I still don't believe that Crono & Marle are dead...No proof pointing to it, just possibilities...
I think Crono's fighting style is similar based on their latent magical abilities. Crono's Slash move for instance is a lot like a move...Slash...uses...I...never noticed that correlation between those names...Well, I think that similarity is because such abilities can be common. I mean, Crono pretty much learns that right off the bat, right? Everything else besides Cyclone is magically inclined.
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I'm leaning toward V_Translaka's opinion I think, the planet's dream being the defeat of Lavos... I mean, CC's last chapter name is "For all the Dreamers, Our Planet's Dream is not over yet". I don't see how it could mean something like "Crono is not dead yet" whereas that chapter is only about defeating the Devourer of Time.
As for Crono and Slash fighting style, well since they are both katana/saber fighters, it would made sense they share some skills. Glenn the son of Garai knows X-Strike, like the former Glenn.
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...I...never noticed that correlation between those names...
It's only in the American version. In the Japanese, the three henchmen are named after condiments. Soy, Vingear, and Mayo I think, although even if those are correct, I have no idea which corresponds to whom.
Also where in the game does it say Crono is the entity's dream? Please use words like "probably" and "hypothetically" please.
Somewhere else on the forum (not sure the thread, sorry) someone gives the text from the Chrono Cross lighter. It mentions the Planet's dream defeating Lavos. It's possible Crono is that dream, it would lend even more credibility to the Crono as a literary Christlike figure Xathael had made when he still ran the Chrono Trigger Testament.
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Haha! No no no...Akuma asked specifically for "probably" & "hypothetically" :wink: :wink: :nudge: :nudge: say no mo' say no mo'
Oh, and yeah, I knew about Ozzie, Flea, & Slash's real names (I also don't know which is which...Although I think Flea might have been the Mayo one...)...I just never realized that in the NA version that Crono has a Tech with the same name as Slash...Just a little thing you can miss, like how there's two different Fire Whirls...
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There are two Fire Whirls? Nearly 10 years later, and we're still learning about this game.
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Fire Whirl 1 - Crono & Lucca 1st Double Tech
Fire Whirl 2 - Lucca & Ayla 2nd Double Tech
I wonder if either of them was translated wrong? I wouldn't be surprised :lol:
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One of them was probably Fire Spin, although I get the distinct feeling there is another one of those somewhere. Maybe they were aiming for similarity, like with Arc Impulse (which demolishes Golems) and Bad Impulse (used by Ozzie and Co)
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But the Fall happened FIVE YEARS after the events of Trigger and the downfall of Lavos...I don't see the connection there either...Not to mention that I still don't believe that Crono & Marle are dead...No proof pointing to it, just possibilities...
I think Crono's fighting style is similar based on their latent magical abilities. Crono's Slash move for instance is a lot like a move...Slash...uses...I...never noticed that correlation between those names...Well, I think that similarity is because such abilities can be common. I mean, Crono pretty much learns that right off the bat, right? Everything else besides Cyclone is magically inclined.
I dont think so. How many katana/saber can create a shockwave with sword swing. it need a master to teach such skill.
Probably katanas and saber are common among the Mystic.
Regarding, katana, in the Melchior hut when you touch a sword(katana) on the wall melchior says:
MELCHIOR: That sword is an invention
of mine.
It's lightweight and handles superbly.
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Crono's Slash move is a simple force of directed Chi, which is a common move in most eastern mythologies. Also, it doesn't look to me that Crono has a master...He learns Slash on his own for instance. And in the anime cut-scenes he's seen practicing his sword skill alone.
Also, I don't think that reference of Melchior's means that he created all of the katanas or whatever, just that one behind him (and probably the ones he sells).
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Yup, Garai and Radius have some slash/shockwave/chi attacks too (along with they childs/apprentices Dario, Glenn and Serge), and those two Devas come from Zenan Mainland. So it must be a well-spread kind of attack.
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Crono's Slash move is a simple force of directed Chi, which is a common move in most eastern mythologies. Also, it doesn't look to me that Crono has a master...He learns Slash on his own for instance. And in the anime cut-scenes he's seen practicing his sword skill alone.
Also, I don't think that reference of Melchior's means that he created all of the katanas or whatever, just that one behind him (and probably the ones he sells).
Yup, Garai and Radius have some slash/shockwave/chi attacks too (along with they childs/apprentices Dario, Glenn and Serge), and those two Devas come from Zenan Mainland. So it must be a well-spread kind of attack.
My point is that the Crono master was his Father (probably dead in a war) that have connections with the Mystics/Demi-humans from were came his techniques. As Chrono'99 stated that Garai and Radius learned his techniques from someone and taught to they childs/aprentice. Thats whay the similaritys between the techs, they have the same roots.
about Melchior:
Why he said "invention" instead "creation". The world of Chrono series sure have you inventor/pioneer in most diferent things. Or Do you think Thomas Edson existed in Guardia?
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My point was that Crono doesn't learn Slash from anyone...
I thought he meant either the steel or the process for creating the blade were his, as it handles superbly and yet is incredibly light. He doesn't say "I created katanas! Cool, huh?". And no, I don't even know who 'Thomas Edson' is...So I'm guessing he's not in Guardia, but who's to say, right?
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Does not the freed Schala, in her speech at the end of CC, say something to the effect that "maybe we are just the dreams of the planet before it is born" (ZeaLitY, am I somewhat right?)? CC is centered around that hypothesis, I think (much as I personally dislike it). I think the intended idea, at least by what is shown in the ending, is that every living thing on the planet is part of the earth's dream, and that includes Crono and Serge. "The planet's dream isn't over yet", ie. it's not the end for living things. And Schala does say that "yes, all dreams return in time to Zurvan, the Sea of Dreams". That's supposed to be Chrono universe heaven, unless I miss my mark. And the people and living things are the dreams.
On the note of Masa/Mune, which I just a second ago explained my thoeries on in another thread about the sword, I think that they are not so much the uncouncious but concious dreams of Melchior. His hopes and dreams, born from the force of his will, together with the magic of the dreamstone.
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My point was that Crono doesn't learn Slash from anyone...
I think he got skill and focus enough to use with proficiency..
I thought he meant either the steel or the process for creating the blade were his, as it handles superbly and yet is incredibly light. He doesn't say "I created katanas! Cool, huh?". And no, I don't even know who 'Thomas Edson' is...So I'm guessing he's not in Guardia, but who's to say, right?
A sword is know for the format of it blade and the quality, so if you create a new type of steel and a new blade type you invented a new type of sword. If the user call it Katana, Rapier or other name it's do not matter.
And the inventor Thomas Edson (http://www.meteorcity.net/lev3_thomasedson.html) was a joke. :lol:
We are off topic so lets create a topic about Crono and friends origins. Do you agre?
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I don't think Masa and Mune are Melchoirs hopes and dreams in a physical form, but rather the physical form of everyone in existances hopes and dreams. When you first go to fight Magus, Frog says, "Mine name is Glenn... Cyrus's hopes and dreams... And now the Masamune..." Now that I think about it it's like he saying he is everyones hopes and dreams, when you look at the symbolism. Also, when you talk to Frog when the masamune is broken he says," Nary a soul remains to mendeth the Masamune." Kind of like how he's depressed and feels there is nothing to bring back his hopes and dreams. The guy who says that the sword is Melchoirs hope and dreams may not realize that the sword is of his hopes and dreams too.
Masa, Mune, and Doreen are very interesting creatures. It might be possible that they are all from this Zurvan place. They all seem to have a higher understanding of our world. Maybe why Masa and Mune fall asleep in the sword in cross is because they realize that none of it all really matters. Doreen does really come off being like Buddha. When the Doreen talk to Masa and Mune, shes angry at them for not doing anything. For her, it is like things that happen on earth are important. Kind of like how Buddha taught that things in this life didn't need to be seen as real, yet stilled cared to travel around to spread his teachings.
Another point the game brings up is that we are all the planets dreams. That it is possible that everything in this game was just a dream. Well aren't humans sort of like the dreams of our god(For some religions at least). Created in an image.
Edit: Do I have like the magical ability to kill topics or something? Ever since I posted, nothing has been added.