Chrono Compendium
Enhasa Halls - Chrono Series Analysis => Lavos, the Planet, and other Entities => Topic started by: Paradox on January 22, 2006, 02:35:18 am
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I posted this in the Characters/whatever section thread, then I found out about this little section so I decided to re-post my theory here, see what you crazy people think. My theory on Lavos, or his pourpose if it wasn't for the fact some crazy band of magic kids kicked his ass.
I’m tired of people saying that the period 2400 or 2399 (whatever) is an era where all the lifeforce of the planet is gone and hope is lost. I DEFY THAT I do. There is still life left in the planet the seeds recovered sprouted, quickly at that. Not just in a single location and a single patch of dirt, but in two separate locations on the landmass and at different times. I believe the planet isn't dead at that point, or even dieing. I believe that Lavos didn't drain the planet to a point of death because the planet's energy doesn’t have a limit. It continuously gives off more and more energy or life. Lavos detached from its leechlike position on the planet in 1999 because it finally had enough energy to create its spawns. S'also why he attacked the surface, so that his spawns could roam and prepare before they too went in search of planets to drain for the energy they need to create spawns. Well, that’s my theory at least. Give the planet another thousand years and it'll be a right ol' bundle of life again fresh with (if humans don't make it) new species and beings until one day another intergalactic parasite lands and re-starts the cycle. Maybe this is the universes way of preserving the cycle of life? Let a civilization or species grow to it's peak then strike it down, letting the planet refresh itself then grow anew? I’m sorry; I get way too into this.
Theres my theory, the universes cycle of life for Earth and all life carrying planets.
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I'm afraid that when there's no life except for Mutants and only a few races remain and on the brink of extinction, the Planet's rather dead.
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Maybe this is the universes way of preserving the cycle of life? Let a civilization or species grow to it's peak then strike it down, letting the planet refresh itself then grow anew?
You remind me of the Architect. Are you the One? ;)
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I'm afraid that when there's no life except for Mutants and only a few races remain and on the brink of extinction, the Planet's rather dead.
No, the other guy is right. If the planet was Dead, the planet would not have been able to dream anything up, so hence the gates could not have ever been caused by it. Heck, Lavos only absorbed the DNA of all life, and the energy of the planet. But yet, that is limitless in a way.
The fact that humans exist, a mutants, and that there is still some kind of weather pattern and oceans shows that. It's just blighted.
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Maybe this is the universes way of preserving the cycle of life? Let a civilization or species grow to it's peak then strike it down, letting the planet refresh itself then grow anew?
You remind me of the Architect. Are you the One? ;)
Why yes, yes I am. Waaaiitt... are you the Matrix? <.< >.> Oh! and may I take this opportunity to congratulate Legend of the Past for being first to shoot down my first three crappy theory posts ever. Fanks XD.
(Well, two. One was repeated in another category)
And honestly anyone can consider the planet going either way. Dieing or regenerating at a gradual rate. I just felt like it was going in the up-way, maybe I’m too much of an optimistic interpreter… or I’m just insane, all quite plausible.
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Well, perhaps not dead yet, but on the brink. We now he DOES die because the End of Time appears in it's place, and it's too young to die on it's own right. Perhaps it's still dying, and the Gates to 2300 A.D. lead to when it was looking back on it's life?
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Well, perhaps not dead yet, but on the brink. We now he DOES die because the End of Time appears in it's place, and it's too young to die on it's own right. Perhaps it's still dying, and the Gates to 2300 A.D. lead to when it was looking back on it's life?
What do you mean it 'leads' to the End of Time? The End of Time, in my opinion, didn't appear, it was just always there, an inevitability for existence. Either way, of course the planet and all things that ever were cease to exist and everything fades into the great big black swirling end BUT why then? Who says that after 2400 in, lets say, another BILLION years life begins to flourish once more on the planet, another species and civilization rises until it's inevitably struck down again (my theory of the universe planet refresh) by a Lavos or some big ol' space parasite. I don't believe the end comes anywhere near after 2400. 2400 is just a point in the planets cycle where everything is at its worst, or getting there. One big loop of life.
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Then there woulden't be any point for Crono's journey, because it woulden't be a real crisis, it would be a nuclear winter. The Planet would recover, while the game states that the 'Entity is seeing it's whole life pass by', which happans, excuse me, when you face death.
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Then there woulden't be any point for Crono's journey, because it woulden't be a real crisis, it would be a nuclear winter. The Planet would recover, while the game states that the 'Entity is seeing it's whole life pass by', which happans, excuse me, when you face death.
Well, this is just me, but Crono's journey to me is more like a detour in the planets cycle. Certain individuals of the species suddenly learnt the secrets of time travel via gates of mysterious energy that are still debated for their existence and stumble upon how their species (my theory says "should eventually") end. They then meddle about with history with the aid of powers that humanity never really understood fully until their very end. Did they alter the cycle? Did they change history? Does the time of humans still end somewhere after 2400? I don't know, it's just my take. Crono's journey did obviously have some kind of purpose, but I've not put much thought into it. I need thinking time dernit!
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Then take your time, stud. Crono's journey is pretty important, and I don't really think that putting it on such low status is a good thing.
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You know lavos may not have killed the planet, but for some reason I doubt it was supposed to wipe it out. Its a gigantic parasite... parasites cant kill their host, because they would die too... instead they try to suck as much energy they can without killing it... Crono and co was simply ridding the planet of the giant space parasite.
The planet cannot have infinite power... that would be idiotic... nothing has infinite power. Plus look at the planet... there was no capability to re-evolve into new life... all that were left were the mutants and spawn... the Spawn would drain out the planets capability...
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Legend of the Past is right. If the Planet wasn't on the brink of death in 2,300AD, there would be no Gates and no journey for Crono. The Ocean Palace Deluge in 12,000BC is the less important crisis for the Planet, as no Gates were created for whoever to prevent that deluge, and life indeed reflourished after it. The Apocalypse in 1,999AD however is a more deadly crisis and the whole point of Crono's quest was to prevent it, in order to save the Entity.
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Because the entity created the gates.
Riiight.
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What's more intresting is the Ocean Palace disaster, actually. Destruction rained from the heavens, and yet the world survived... I'd wager that it's due to Lavos not gaining enough power...
Ah, and Magus, in reply to you: Yes, parasites don't kill hosts. And indeed, nothing has never-ending energy. However, due to the fact the Planet doesn't have eternal energy, Lavos coulden't use it anymore. I think the attacks that destroyed Zeal and eventually, the whole Planet, were just him giving a big loud yawn. Not to say he didn't want to destroy the Planet, but when you fight him in 1999 A.D., he's weaker then usual, due to his long sleep. Not unlike how the FF X party attacked Sin by making him docile with the Hymn of the Fayth, Lavos was docile (Or sleepy, if such a term applies for Lavos) due to his sleep of 13,999 years, and his longer sleep, which took 65,001,999 years.
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No, the other guy is right. If the planet was Dead, the planet would not have been able to dream anything up, so hence the gates could not have ever been caused by it. Heck, Lavos only absorbed the DNA of all life, and the energy of the planet. But yet, that is limitless in a way.
The fact that humans exist, a mutants, and that there is still some kind of weather pattern and oceans shows that. It's just blighted.
He said 2400. You're talking about 2300. There's a different.
And also, Paradox, in order for your theory of the Planet not dying to work, you're going to have to believe in Spontanious Generation, the theory of life rising off inorganic material. This was a theory from back in the Salem Witch Trials. You're not a witch burner, are you? Because your theory doesn't work :D Witch.
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What's more intresting is the Ocean Palace disaster, actually. Destruction rained from the heavens, and yet the world survived... I'd wager that it's due to Lavos not gaining enough power...
You cant really blame him, after all, he just had an interstellar, maybe even interglactic trip in order to get here. He must have had some form of propulsion. Hence, the low energy.
Actually, considering the vastness of space, you would have to be incredibly lucky to just come across a planet (with sufficient energy) and divert course to converge with it.
I retain the belief that lavos' race is highly intelligent and advanced:
They would have had to scout out a suitable inhabitance using high powered telescopes or radioscopes or magiscopes or whatever, then using advaced mathematical ability, calculate the course to get there (including how much fuel, food, etc.) not only which straight direction, but maybe using gravity to slingshot thier space vehicle or maybe even wormholes, and then land on the planet accurately.
The way he came to the planet is indicative of an advanced lifeform with sentience and a well defined and developed culture and technology.
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Yes... Space is mainly a void... however he could track energy down as a natural sense... it may not be a technological thing... we have no idea the acuteness of his senses..
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What's more intresting is the Ocean Palace disaster, actually. Destruction rained from the heavens, and yet the world survived... I'd wager that it's due to Lavos not gaining enough power....
Lavos was only aiming at Zeal. It didn't want to ruin the entire planet at that point.
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I'd find it hard to aim a blow that big. But yeah, I guess you're right.
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Lavos can do anything :P Just like Chuck Norris.
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I'd find it hard to aim a blow that big. But yeah, I guess you're right.
It'd be hard to aim, but Lavos' rains are being aimed up. And guess what? Zeal is right above Lavos and the world anyway.
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Assuming how Zeal is two cities and a Palace, I'd like to think it's not above the entire world, but assuming how the beam from Zeal Palace seems to lead directly down to the Ocean Palace, you're right this time.
But here's another point: Lavos shot his rain, and in effect saved mankind from the Ice Age he himself created... Wonder if he did it willingly.
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Frankly I don't think Lavos cares what mankind is doing. It's just absorbing their DNA and hibernating somewhere while mankind lives. Then it rises, creates its spawn (which also destroys almost everything living on the planet, whether by purpose or consequence, who's to say). The only times it absolutely antagonizes humankind is when Zeal overdoes the blood-sucking, and when Crono and co try to kill it. Seems to be more defensive than evil.
Though when merged with Schala it's quite a fucked-up evil power-time-space hungry fiend. Unless it's NOT sentient, which is Josh's belief, and it's just kinda doing things without control. But...
...now I'm confused o_O
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Two points.
If Lavos is Sentient: Why would he bother to destroy the Kingdom where i'd deem 3/4 of the world's population live? Thats just plain stupidity on his part, because Lavos needs mankind I think. But hell i may be wrong om that assumption.
If Lavos isn't Sentient: Then he obviously destroyed Zeal without heed to the fact that he needs mankind (this is based off the above asumption). He probably only aimed at Zeal because some sort of instinct told him too perhaps? He only awoke because he was disturbed by Queen Zeal.
NOTE: Once again I remain neutral. :D I find it helps increase my knowledge and not get attacked as often.
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Maybe Lavos expected them to survive, so any survivers would actually add more DNA and genes to him with their survival.
Anyway, I'm starting to think that it could not just have been the over doing of the Mammon Machine that woke him. Maybe it was prepairing it for the Black Omen to rise, so Zeal had to go down as Queen Zeal did not need it. In turn, making Schala feel guilty, and this could have started the whole "half wanted to save the world, while the other wanted to destroy it". In fact, it could be Schala's sadness that is turning Lavos into the TD, and no the opposite way around. If Lavos is indeed doing it to Schala, then that proves he's sentient.
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Two points.
If Lavos is Sentient: Why would he bother to destroy the Kingdom where i'd deem 3/4 of the world's population live? Thats just plain stupidity on his part, because Lavos needs mankind I think. But hell i may be wrong om that assumption.
If Lavos isn't Sentient: Then he obviously destroyed Zeal without heed to the fact that he needs mankind (this is based off the above asumption). He probably only aimed at Zeal because some sort of instinct told him too perhaps? He only awoke because he was disturbed by Queen Zeal.
NOTE: Once again I remain neutral. Very Happy I find it helps increase my knowledge and not get attacked as often.
I believe that lavos would do entirely the opposite. He would attack that place, precisely because most of the world's population lived there.
Taking into account the quote by Mother brain, that says that the planet could sustain the children of lavos if the humans werent here, we can assume that lavos is just trying to give his spawn the best start they can have, by eliminating the competition.
Also: What have humankind ever done for lavos?
A) Competed with lavos, not allowing his children to prosper.
B) Sucked energy out of lavos, promting im to wake up and have to take action.
C) Killed his spawn.
D) Eventually killed him.
Lavos doesnt need humans, in exactly the same way that humans dont need lavos: THey would both be better off without eachother.
The point that he was disturbed by Queen Zeal simply adds to my argument, showing that humans ahve done nothing for lavos other than hinder him. Instead of putting energy into spawning his young, he was forced to waste it on attacking Zeal.
Well done, lordchander, you have successfully taken yoruself out of the realm of neutrality and into the warzone we know as argument.
i hope you are happy.
Have a nice day. :)
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Two points.
If Lavos is Sentient: Why would he bother to destroy the Kingdom where i'd deem 3/4 of the world's population live? Thats just plain stupidity on his part, because Lavos needs mankind I think. But hell i may be wrong om that assumption.
If Lavos isn't Sentient: Then he obviously destroyed Zeal without heed to the fact that he needs mankind (this is based off the above asumption). He probably only aimed at Zeal because some sort of instinct told him too perhaps? He only awoke because he was disturbed by Queen Zeal.
NOTE: Once again I remain neutral. Very Happy I find it helps increase my knowledge and not get attacked as often.
I believe that lavos would do entirely the opposite. He would attack that place, precisely because most of the world's population lived there.
Taking into account the quote by Mother brain, that says that the planet could sustain the children of lavos if the humans werent here, we can assume that lavos is just trying to give his spawn the best start they can have, by eliminating the competition.
Also: What have humankind ever done for lavos?
A) Competed with lavos, not allowing his children to prosper.
B) Sucked energy out of lavos, promting im to wake up and have to take action.
C) Killed his spawn.
D) Eventually killed him.
Lavos doesnt need humans, in exactly the same way that humans dont need lavos: THey would both be better off without eachother.
The point that he was disturbed by Queen Zeal simply adds to my argument, showing that humans ahve done nothing for lavos other than hinder him. Instead of putting energy into spawning his young, he was forced to waste it on attacking Zeal.
Well done, lordchander, you have successfully taken yoruself out of the realm of neutrality and into the warzone we know as argument.
i hope you are happy.
Have a nice day. :)
Minus the fact that Lavos needs the humans DNA so that it can evolve into the ultimate being on the planet. Without that DNA I doubt that the core can even function correctly. It also leads me to assume that the core is not made until much later with regards to the initial landing.
I see Lavos's attack on Zeal as a precautionary measure to prevent the humans from getting too powerful. Lavos knows that the magic it gave them made them tons more powerful, and once they figured out how to manipulate that magic into energy they were wasting the energy that Lavos needed to reproduce. Thus Lavos destryos Zeal, killing off almost all magic wielding humans and preventing them from using more of its energy in the process.
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Two points.
If Lavos is Sentient: Why would he bother to destroy the Kingdom where i'd deem 3/4 of the world's population live? Thats just plain stupidity on his part, because Lavos needs mankind I think. But hell i may be wrong om that assumption.
If Lavos isn't Sentient: Then he obviously destroyed Zeal without heed to the fact that he needs mankind (this is based off the above asumption). He probably only aimed at Zeal because some sort of instinct told him too perhaps? He only awoke because he was disturbed by Queen Zeal.
NOTE: Once again I remain neutral. Very Happy I find it helps increase my knowledge and not get attacked as often.
I believe that lavos would do entirely the opposite. He would attack that place, precisely because most of the world's population lived there.
Taking into account the quote by Mother brain, that says that the planet could sustain the children of lavos if the humans werent here, we can assume that lavos is just trying to give his spawn the best start they can have, by eliminating the competition.
Also: What have humankind ever done for lavos?
A) Competed with lavos, not allowing his children to prosper.
B) Sucked energy out of lavos, promting im to wake up and have to take action.
C) Killed his spawn.
D) Eventually killed him.
Lavos doesnt need humans, in exactly the same way that humans dont need lavos: THey would both be better off without eachother.
The point that he was disturbed by Queen Zeal simply adds to my argument, showing that humans ahve done nothing for lavos other than hinder him. Instead of putting energy into spawning his young, he was forced to waste it on attacking Zeal.
Well done, lordchander, you have successfully taken yoruself out of the realm of neutrality and into the warzone we know as argument.
i hope you are happy.
Have a nice day. :)
Lavos is a parasite... sucks the energy of the planet and the lifeforms' DNA. People try to eliminate parasites, and parasites do not enjoy it, but if the human dies well the parasite is kind of screwed. You know, no more energy source for survival. Humans are the planet's immunity system against this massive parasite (very incomptent ones when you look at what happened to Zeal), but nonetheless they eventually rid the planet of this disease. Humans do not need Lavos, but Lavos needs an advanced lifeform, humans.
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Minus the fact that Lavos needs the humans DNA so that it can evolve into the ultimate being on the planet. Without that DNA I doubt that the core can even function correctly. It also leads me to assume that the core is not made until much later with regards to the initial landing.
I see Lavos's attack on Zeal as a precautionary measure to prevent the humans from getting too powerful. Lavos knows that the magic it gave them made them tons more powerful, and once they figured out how to manipulate that magic into energy they were wasting the energy that Lavos needed to reproduce. Thus Lavos destryos Zeal, killing off almost all magic wielding humans and preventing them from using more of its energy in the process.
What do you base that upon? I believe that if Lavos survived an immeasurable journey across the vacuum of space, he can survive on a lush planet, abundant in resources. It's like introducing a predator into an ecosystem that has no natural defense against it, and even if he HAD killed off all humans, he would have still absorbed the useful DNA of the creatures in 65,000,000 B.C. He probably would have launched an attack on the rest of humanity, but a planetwide assault on all sentient life would, I believe, be beyond him.
Lavos is a parasite... sucks the energy of the planet and the lifeforms' DNA. People try to eliminate parasites, and parasites do not enjoy it, but if the human dies well the parasite is kind of screwed. You know, no more energy source for survival. Humans are the planet's immunity system against this massive parasite (very incomptent ones when you look at what happened to Zeal), but nonetheless they eventually rid the planet of this disease. Humans do not need Lavos, but Lavos needs an advanced lifeform, humans.
Lavos is a parasite on the planet, not on humans; humans are in direct competition with lavos. In response to the point about humans being the planet's defense against invasion, I say this:
Humans may very well have evolved as a defense, if an inept one, and that is fine, but in the end it is irrelevant that they are. Lavos would attack them because of that standing, but more so because they are direct competition. when you look at it in this way, you are furthering my point that lavos WOULD destroy humanity, if given the chance. If I were lavos, I wouldnt worry about humans being there for any other reason other than competition, because the chance of them infilcting any hurt upon me would be so infinitesmally small as to be unnoticed. In the end, this was his downfall, but it was a string of unlikely co-incedences sixty-five million years long that lead to Lavos' destruction.
Lavos doesnt need humans any more than humans need him.
Lavos WANTS humans to suck the DNA from, but it isnt necessary. If he can survive crashing into the planet at more than terminal velocity, and the trip across vacuum and whatever other difficulties he faced whereever he came from, I believe he can survive the planet. Humans arent a factor for survival, for lavos.
You might say that he needs them to evolve the proper equipment to survive the atmosphere and environment of the planet, but he could get that from an ant, or a rabbit, just as well as he could from a human.
I appologise for my stilted rebuttal, but Im not feeling 100% today, and I cant think.
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Lavos destroyed the Kingdom of Zeal because the Mammon Machine drained too much of its energy. Magic using humans turned out to be a threat, or at least an annoyance to Lavos, so it eliminated them.
Humans, along with all other living things on the planet, were produce for Lavos. While Lavos's survival probably did not depend on the existence of humans, the DNA it gathered furthered its evolution. Lavos would exploit the resources of the planet to the greatest possible extent, so long as Lavos's genetic manipulation would not pose a danger to it.
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He said 2400. You're talking about 2300. There's a different.
And also, Paradox, in order for your theory of the Planet not dying to work, you're going to have to believe in Spontanious Generation, the theory of life rising off inorganic material. This was a theory from back in the Salem Witch Trials. You're not a witch burner, are you? Because your theory doesn't work :D Witch.
Okay okay okay. I realize my theory has already been beaten to a bloody pulp and shunned for some other argument/topic, but for the sake of not looking like a complete fool I'll defend myself once more. Like my theory or not, I'm going to voice it.
I’m a big supporter of the whole catastrophism idea. A series of unfathomably destructive and even violent geological or biological (disease, climate change, ect.) events leading to the end of various prominent species and the gradual growth of new from the remnants of what was. Well, that’s the shortened version of it, don't jump on me about the details.
Either way, I just believe Lavos is a creature of natural destiny. An element of disaster that exists to end the growth of the dominant species and allow the world to begin once more from the remains. Much like (okay, not really, but it's hard to connect in an understandable comparison in our own planets history) the comet that killed the dinosaurs, or the climate change or whatever we believe ended the age when those colossal reptiles dominated our little blue and green ball.
What fuels my theory is that, if not for Crono's journey then undoubtedly all life on the planet would have ended EXCEPT, for as we see in the two plants we see sprout, the most basic forms of life. I still hold to my idea that Lavos only needed, and only took the planets energy to have enough fuel to keep his species a'goin. Once this was complete his "spawns" would venture off and find their own planets to leech off of, and Lavos would simply die. So what are we left with? An empty planet with little energy, the remnants of the creature that caused this devastation, and the most simple forms of life. There is life, there is energy (that I believe can eventually rekindle) and there’s the DNA of what once was in the remains of Lavos. From this new life, working with the base genetic knowledge leeched by everyone’s favorite planetary parasite, new life spawns and thrives in it's own unique fashion. New history begins.
I realize my theory doesn’t work in a lot of your minds. Right now I’m openly calling my theory invalid and unorthodox, due to the overly debated nature of Lavos and how this seems to defy probably the most prominent and widely accepted CT theory out there on the compendium, this post was just an attempt to explain myself. I promise not to post another message on any of my theories ever again if I get the same level of negativity and dismissive posts I did when first throwing this out there.
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Paradox, I don't disagree with your theory by any means. In fact, I'm inclined to agree with you. Kinda combine yours and Grays last posts. Lavos didn't need the humans, but wasn't gonna completely destroy them until they no longer had any use, DNA-collecting-wise and all.
I'm still debating whether I believe Lavos is sentient or not.
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The problem is that two plants can't repopulate the entire planet. Especially not with animals, which are another direction in the evolutionary cycle entirely. And seeing as how all water, air, and sunlight is pretty much destroyed or unusuable, those plants wouldn't last for very long anyway.
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Look at Death Peak... the plants there are obviously not natural, those trees are dead or artificial. With a world under the constant darkness of Lavos and plagued by wild animals and monsters, not to mention deactivated robots that could be reactivatied, there is not much chance of life.
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Maybe they are natural. If wood isnt subject to bacteria or any catalysts for decay, then it doesnt decay. There are churches in scandinavia built entirely out of wood that are still standing after one thousand years or more. Not much could live on death peak, between the lack of anything edible, the balsting winds and the freezing cold. I think it is unlikely, but plausible that these trees have been standing for thirteen hundred years.
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Minus the fact that Lavos needs the humans DNA so that it can evolve into the ultimate being on the planet. Without that DNA I doubt that the core can even function correctly. It also leads me to assume that the core is not made until much later with regards to the initial landing.
I see Lavos's attack on Zeal as a precautionary measure to prevent the humans from getting too powerful. Lavos knows that the magic it gave them made them tons more powerful, and once they figured out how to manipulate that magic into energy they were wasting the energy that Lavos needed to reproduce. Thus Lavos destryos Zeal, killing off almost all magic wielding humans and preventing them from using more of its energy in the process.
What do you base that upon? I believe that if Lavos survived an immeasurable journey across the vacuum of space, he can survive on a lush planet, abundant in resources. It's like introducing a predator into an ecosystem that has no natural defense against it, and even if he HAD killed off all humans, he would have still absorbed the useful DNA of the creatures in 65,000,000 B.C. He probably would have launched an attack on the rest of humanity, but a planetwide assault on all sentient life would, I believe, be beyond him.
You are missing the point. Lavos doesn't need DNA to literally survive. He needs it to further the growth of the planet, and allow for the most energy to be drained from it as possible.
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You are missing the point. Lavos doesn't need DNA to literally survive. He needs it to further the growth of the planet, and allow for the most energy to be drained from it as possible.
Lavos actually uses the DNA to improve its own genome. Lavos needs the energy of the planet to grow and reproduce. The DNA Lavos collects makes it and its spawn more advanced.
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I think it is unlikely, but plausible that these trees have been standing for thirteen hundred years.
Except Death Peak seems to be no older than 301 years.
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Oh, whoops. Then it is extremely possible (thanks for the correction, btw). Some trees live for 301 years, and could, if in the right conditions, easily be dead and standing for that long. Thanks for improving my point.
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Oh, whoops. Then it is extremely possible (thanks for the correction, btw). Some trees live for 301 years, and could, if in the right conditions, easily be dead and standing for that long. Thanks for improving my point.
But trees do not grow in the middle of an abyss... Death Peak is right by where the wonderful abyss of Lavos was... there is a lot of things pointing towards Lavos = Death Peak or Lavos helped create Death Peak, so the trees cannot be "natural"
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I dunno why your saying that trees can't grow in an abyss, after all Death Peak is not an abyss. Death Peak is either one of two things, it is either a mountain (means it has rocks and dirt) or it is Lavos covered with rocks and dirt (after all it's not like you run up and down thing on scales or spikes).
So regardless, if a tree stands, it grew there, and it grew in the dirt that is there.
And if the trees did not grow there, then well every other theory is quite honestly pretty rediculous. If you don't believe they are grown there, then might as well believe some extraterrestial Feng Shui master hopped on by to visit his good ol' pal lavos and wanted to spruce his back up a bit.
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... That mock theory about the Feng Shui master just totally brightened up my day XD
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That Feng Shui theory makes sense... <.< >.> <.< >.<!
The point is that the trees grew after Death Peak... not before it... and that means they grew post-Lavos... and that means they grew in a world with no true sunlight...
Trees need sunlight to grow...
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We don't know for certain that the world instantly became dead after 1999 A.D. We really can't say one way or another (as there is no actual evidence about this). So it could have instantly become dark and dead, or it could have been more gradual giving trees a chance to sprout.
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How do we know that the process of apocalypse was an instantaneous one?
It may have degenerated further and further until the we meet the people of 2300 and the plight they were in.
Presuming lavos came out of the core, or even the outer mantle, he still would have had ten kilometers of crust to break through. This would esentially meant that he WOULD be covered in dirt or, if said dirt had burnt to a cinder, volcanic ash. Both of these things are fertile (the ash amazingly so) and would facilitate the growth of trees.
For now, let us accept the gradual degeneration theory. If in the first hundred years or two hundred years, the earth was slightly hospitable (we assume it was because the people still had some food left.) trees would have grown on death peak. That is how trees miraculously got on there. Only a certain species of tree, however, was hardy and deep rooted enough to withstand the great winds after death. All the rest would died, been uprooted, and blown off the the mountain.
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How do we know that the process of apocalypse was an instantaneous one?
It may have degenerated further and further until the we meet the people of 2300 and the plight they were in.
Presuming lavos came out of the core, or even the outer mantle, he still would have had ten kilometers of crust to break through. This would esentially meant that he WOULD be covered in dirt or, if said dirt had burnt to a cinder, volcanic ash. Both of these things are fertile (the ash amazingly so) and would facilitate the growth of trees.
For now, let us accept the gradual degeneration theory. If in the first hundred years or two hundred years, the earth was slightly hospitable (we assume it was because the people still had some food left.) trees would have grown on death peak. That is how trees miraculously got on there. Only a certain species of tree, however, was hardy and deep rooted enough to withstand the great winds after death. All the rest would died, been uprooted, and blown off the the mountain.
Exactly. And then from that point what happens? Those trees sprout seeds; those seeds grow into new trees. New life forms begin to develop in sync with the trees. Symbiotic creatures like mushrooms and insects that spread this new fertile life.
Now, consider that Lavos is big. REALLY big. I mean you just won’t believe how ghastly, mind bogglingly big he is... and so on. (CURSE YOU HITCHHIKERS GUIDE infecting my brain). We've established there’s still weather patterns to the planet, tidal movements, and life. The fertile substance (ash, soil, ect) is spread and new life forms in those areas. Now energy is never 'gone'. It just moves and changes. Since the energy of the planet went into feeding Lavos and his spawns it's now in them, which will one day fly away to new planets (they grow up so fast...). The energy that’s left cycles and BOOM! We've got a planet that, despite not having the 'grandness' of it's prior state with all it's fancy green stuff and sentient lifeforms (thinks it's so great... grumble grumble), it's alive and working in the lifecycle a worldwide ecosystem should, just with diminished resources.
The question is then what happens after that. Does the planet just stay in that state for the next god knows how long until everything and anything is sucked into our favorite point of least temporal resistance? Maybe. Maybe some kind of space rock falls on our planet containing spore like organisms that thrive in this new environment? Think it's crazy? Yeah well the planets energy was o' so recently sucked up by an outer galactic tick, so get used to the nearly impossible. All I’m saying is I really don’t believe the planet just dies after that point along with everything and anything on it. I believe that, if not in a diminished state, life goes on in a new form.
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Exactly. And then from that point what happens? Those trees sprout seeds; those seeds grow into new trees. New life forms begin to develop in sync with the trees. Symbiotic creatures like mushrooms and insects that spread this new fertile life.
No, because after a few hundred years, any resources left to sustain life are exhausted. The trees are the end of the cycle, except for any bacteria or fungi that will desperately feed off the remains.
Now energy is never 'gone'. It just moves and changes. Since the energy of the planet went into feeding Lavos and his spawns it's now in them, which will one day fly away to new planets (they grow up so fast...). The energy that’s left cycles and BOOM! We've got a planet that, despite not having the 'grandness' of it's prior state with all it's fancy green stuff and sentient lifeforms (thinks it's so great... grumble grumble), it's alive and working in the lifecycle a worldwide ecosystem should, just with diminished resources.
Problem is, in real life, energy isn't recyclable. It changes state, but usually stops in the form of heat or some other unusable form, and hovers around in space until the Second Law of Thermodynamics comes to it's climax and the universe suffers Heat Death.
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The planet we are talking about is dying if not dead... the sun is completely blacked out, those trees that still exist are from earilier times. The creatures alive are scavengers... The only sign of recovery is the fact that somehow the seeds sprouted...
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I have a few words to say about this theory
1. The trees can't 'suck up' all the energy left because energy can't be created or destroyed. The trees would use it, the fungi would decompose it, and more trees would suck up the same nutrients. It's doubtful that the planet would be as fertile ever again because Lavos and his spawn got most of it, but there's probably enough left to keep a continuous cycle going, though rather small
2. Since we're talking about energy usage and trees being the main living thing to survive, can we asume that Lavos will keep all of the energy he ate up inside of him forever? I mean a giant tick-like parasite has to take a dump sometime, doesn't he? Obviously a lot of the energy would be lost forever to the spawn to go to different worlds, but unless Lavos plans on shooting himself back into space to dump his load on another planet, the planet would eventually get all the nutrients back for at least fertile plant growth. I'm guessing that by 2300 he's nearing the end of his life cycle, so he would at least leave a corpse. He probably spent a lot of his stored energy making his babies, so he most likely doesn't have enough energy to go back into space so as not to leave a corpse on the planet. It's entirely possible that'd he'd do it, but it doesn't seem like the logical path.
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I have a few words to say about this theory
1. The trees can't 'suck up' all the energy left because energy can't be created or destroyed. The trees would use it, the fungi would decompose it, and more trees would suck up the same nutrients. It's doubtful that the planet would be as fertile ever again because Lavos and his spawn got most of it, but there's probably enough left to keep a continuous cycle going, though rather small
2. Since we're talking about energy usage and trees being the main living thing to survive, can we asume that Lavos will keep all of the energy he ate up inside of him forever? I mean a giant tick-like parasite has to take a dump sometime, doesn't he? Obviously a lot of the energy would be lost forever to the spawn to go to different worlds, but unless Lavos plans on shooting himself back into space to dump his load on another planet, the planet would eventually get all the nutrients back for at least fertile plant growth. I'm guessing that by 2300 he's nearing the end of his life cycle, so he would at least leave a corpse. He probably spent a lot of his stored energy making his babies, so he most likely doesn't have enough energy to go back into space so as not to leave a corpse on the planet. It's entirely possible that'd he'd do it, but it doesn't seem like the logical path.
THANK YOU >_< Okay, maybe I'm too much of an optimist, I'll admit it. It just seems to me though far too many people are into the idea of the planet just spiraling into decay and eventual cold black death. Cuh-mon! I don't even think the creators of the game wanted that! The whole scene (scenes if you count the second less climactic sprout) with the seeds was to show that there -is- a future! Just a very slow, small, and maybe depressing one where every bit of nutrients and every bit of life is precious.
The planet we are talking about is dying if not dead... the sun is completely blacked out, those trees that still exist are from earilier times. The creatures alive are scavengers... The only sign of recovery is the fact that somehow the seeds sprouted...
Okay, contradictory there... if the sun is completely "blocked out" then it'd be impossible for the seeds to sprout. No sunlight = no plantlike life. Plus, those trees can't have existed from "earlier times" unless there was a constant level of nourishment for them for the good 300-400 years they're alive. That is assuming, if they're from earlier times, they survived Lavos strike. And that of course is going against the idea that Death Peak -is- Lavos, another debated theory, which means it'd be imposible for those trees to pre-date the day of Lavos.
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The sun isn't totally blacked out. If it would be totally blocked, the earth would be in total darkness, and it just isn't the case (though it might be if you use an old emulator that doesn't show transparency :P ). Moreover, you can clearly see a sunlight in the Sun Keep.
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THANK YOU[/b] [/i]>_< Okay, maybe I'm too much of an optimist, I'll admit it. It just seems to me though far too many people are into the idea of the planet just spiraling into decay and eventual cold black death. Cuh-mon! I don't even think the creators of the game wanted that! The whole scene (scenes if you count the second less climactic sprout) with the seeds was to show that there -is- a future! Just a very slow, small, and maybe depressing one where every bit of nutrients and every bit of life is precious.
You have seen the bad ending right? You know where Lavos attacks and the entire planet turns grey? That's where we got that idea. :wink:
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1. The trees can't 'suck up' all the energy left because energy can't be created or destroyed. The trees would use it, the fungi would decompose it, and more trees would suck up the same nutrients. It's doubtful that the planet would be as fertile ever again because Lavos and his spawn got most of it, but there's probably enough left to keep a continuous cycle going, though rather small
Nutrients aren't energy. They're two seperate things. Energy could be exhausted and lost in the process of bodily functions, and then those nutrients would lose their worth.
2. Since we're talking about energy usage and trees being the main living thing to survive, can we asume that Lavos will keep all of the energy he ate up inside of him forever? I mean a giant tick-like parasite has to take a dump sometime, doesn't he? Obviously a lot of the energy would be lost forever to the spawn to go to different worlds, but unless Lavos plans on shooting himself back into space to dump his load on another planet, the planet would eventually get all the nutrients back for at least fertile plant growth. I'm guessing that by 2300 he's nearing the end of his life cycle, so he would at least leave a corpse. He probably spent a lot of his stored energy making his babies, so he most likely doesn't have enough energy to go back into space so as not to leave a corpse on the planet. It's entirely possible that'd he'd do it, but it doesn't seem like the logical path.
Indeed, but there could be possibilities around this, like how Lavos' waste products aren't usable in ANY form, or that his body experienced massive mitosis into the race of Lavos Spawns that went off to other planets.
THANK YOU >_< Okay, maybe I'm too much of an optimist, I'll admit it. It just seems to me though far too many people are into the idea of the planet just spiraling into decay and eventual cold black death. Cuh-mon! I don't even think the creators of the game wanted that! The whole scene (scenes if you count the second less climactic sprout) with the seeds was to show that there -is- a future! Just a very slow, small, and maybe depressing one where every bit of nutrients and every bit of life is precious.
Then how come the ENTIRE CT fanbase -Except you- come to the conclusion that this is the end? Especially when the year 1999 is referred to as the Apocalypse? Even still, that "hopeful future" symbolism doesn't mean anything, because the REST of the game promotes the idea that a hopeful future can only come by making their PRESENT better, instead of waiting to make it better when things get tough (Your idea). Also, the whole thing with the Planet/Entity's life flashing through it's eyes as it's DYING.
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Point of CT is to fix the future you must take action...
And for all you who say Lavos gives off energy eventually... he did. It was called Apocalypse 1999 AD. Everyone got blown up. Convert planet's energy to massive heat energy and use it to destroy practically all life. Its still releasing heat.
Then energy gets used to make spawn and send spawn to take out other planets...
The fact is there is still energy in the system... but the system is no longer the planet... it is Lavos and his Spawn.
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1. The trees can't 'suck up' all the energy left because energy can't be created or destroyed. The trees would use it, the fungi would decompose it, and more trees would suck up the same nutrients. It's doubtful that the planet would be as fertile ever again because Lavos and his spawn got most of it, but there's probably enough left to keep a continuous cycle going, though rather small
Nutrients aren't energy. They're two separate things. Energy could be exhausted and lost in the process of bodily functions, and then those nutrients would lose their worth.
I think there is a bit of confusion here. In all likelihood, Lavos was draining the spiritual or magical energy of the planet. I don't think this is directly related to the persistence of plant life.
Plants need sunlight, water and nutrients to grow. These things were lacking in 2300 AD due to the continued, catastrophic destruction of the planet's ecosystems by Lavos. The only living things left on the surface are mutants. The destruction in 1999 AD was only to provide the necessary environment for Lavos's spawn to grow. The Lavos spawn will eventually consume all the planet's remaining resources as they mature.
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Then how come the ENTIRE CT fanbase -Except you- come to the conclusion that this is the end? Especially when the year 1999 is referred to as the Apocalypse? Even still, that "hopeful future" symbolism doesn't mean anything, because the REST of the game promotes the idea that a hopeful future can only come by making their PRESENT better, instead of waiting to make it better when things get tough (Your idea). Also, the whole thing with the Planet/Entity's life flashing through it's eyes as it's DYING.
The game itself promoted the idea of the planet coming back to life. In both 12000 BC and 2300 AD, there is a sprout of a new plant. The one in 12000BC showed how even after the Zeal disaster the planet managed to continue to live and produce living things. Its pretty much the same scenario in 2300AD. If you go back and talk to the people in the domes later on in the game when you don't necessarily have to, you'll see that their condition was improving (if ever so slightly) because the seeds sprouted and gave the people hope that the planet could come back to life. The general plotline of the game states that to save the future one must save the past, yet at the same time it emphasizes that the planet could continue to live even after the most dire circumstances. So we're both right. :P
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Then how come the ENTIRE CT fanbase -Except you- come to the conclusion that this is the end? Especially when the year 1999 is referred to as the Apocalypse? Even still, that "hopeful future" symbolism doesn't mean anything, because the REST of the game promotes the idea that a hopeful future can only come by making their PRESENT better, instead of waiting to make it better when things get tough (Your idea). Also, the whole thing with the Planet/Entity's life flashing through it's eyes as it's DYING.
The game itself promoted the idea of the planet coming back to life. In both 12000 BC and 2300 AD, there is a sprout of a new plant. The one in 12000BC showed how even after the Zeal disaster the planet managed to continue to live and produce living things. Its pretty much the same scenario in 2300AD. If you go back and talk to the people in the domes later on in the game when you don't necessarily have to, you'll see that their condition was improving (if ever so slightly) because the seeds sprouted and gave the people hope that the planet could come back to life. The general plotline of the game states that to save the future one must save the past, yet at the same time it emphasizes that the planet could continue to live even after the most dire circumstances. So we're both right. :P
... Eh, I could go with that. Can't we all just get along? As I said in a previous post, don't know how far back (Sheesh, I really argued this one) I said it can go either way. I can see how the remaining energy could just be there for the spawns to feed on untill they mature to leech off a new world, and I can see how the planets "life flashing before its (eyes?)" is a dead giveaway for the planets death and all those valid points given. I'm not abandoning my optimistic view, I just like the idea of leaving it as a highly debatable topic really leaning twards the planet fizzlin' out. Plus, I want to pitch out more theories that'll stir up some trouble :wink: On with the show!
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Then how come the ENTIRE CT fanbase -Except you- come to the conclusion that this is the end? Especially when the year 1999 is referred to as the Apocalypse? Even still, that "hopeful future" symbolism doesn't mean anything, because the REST of the game promotes the idea that a hopeful future can only come by making their PRESENT better, instead of waiting to make it better when things get tough (Your idea). Also, the whole thing with the Planet/Entity's life flashing through it's eyes as it's DYING.
The game itself promoted the idea of the planet coming back to life. In both 12000 BC and 2300 AD, there is a sprout of a new plant. The one in 12000BC showed how even after the Zeal disaster the planet managed to continue to live and produce living things. Its pretty much the same scenario in 2300AD. If you go back and talk to the people in the domes later on in the game when you don't necessarily have to, you'll see that their condition was improving (if ever so slightly) because the seeds sprouted and gave the people hope that the planet could come back to life. The general plotline of the game states that to save the future one must save the past, yet at the same time it emphasizes that the planet could continue to live even after the most dire circumstances. So we're both right. :P
Except that in 12000 Lavos only destroyed the Zeal Islands, and there was a regrowth due to the end of an ice age. In 1999 the environment was so polluted that in 2300 the group is hurt when they walk outside. If humans are hurt from walking around in it I couldn't imagine how plants could survive and grow in the same environment.
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Then how come the ENTIRE CT fanbase -Except you- come to the conclusion that this is the end? Especially when the year 1999 is referred to as the Apocalypse? Even still, that "hopeful future" symbolism doesn't mean anything, because the REST of the game promotes the idea that a hopeful future can only come by making their PRESENT better, instead of waiting to make it better when things get tough (Your idea). Also, the whole thing with the Planet/Entity's life flashing through it's eyes as it's DYING.
The game itself promoted the idea of the planet coming back to life. In both 12000 BC and 2300 AD, there is a sprout of a new plant. The one in 12000BC showed how even after the Zeal disaster the planet managed to continue to live and produce living things. Its pretty much the same scenario in 2300AD. If you go back and talk to the people in the domes later on in the game when you don't necessarily have to, you'll see that their condition was improving (if ever so slightly) because the seeds sprouted and gave the people hope that the planet could come back to life. The general plotline of the game states that to save the future one must save the past, yet at the same time it emphasizes that the planet could continue to live even after the most dire circumstances. So we're both right. :P
Except that in 12000 Lavos only destroyed the Zeal Islands, and there was a regrowth due to the end of an ice age. In 1999 the environment was so polluted that in 2300 the group is hurt when they walk outside. If humans are hurt from walking around in it I couldn't imagine how plants could survive and grow in the same environment.
They were hurt when they walked outside?
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They were hurt when they walked outside?
No, that's a myth. However, the air does look heavily polluted.
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I think there is a bit of confusion here. In all likelihood, Lavos was draining the spiritual or magical energy of the planet. I don't think this is directly related to the persistence of plant life.
In most storylines (and Japanese mythology, on the offchance that it had influence on the Chrono series) the planet's spiritual/magical energy and scientific (energy that exists in the real world) energy are one and the same, except in different forms. Like heat and light.
The game itself promoted the idea of the planet coming back to life. In both 12000 BC and 2300 AD, there is a sprout of a new plant. The one in 12000BC showed how even after the Zeal disaster the planet managed to continue to live and produce living things. Its pretty much the same scenario in 2300AD. If you go back and talk to the people in the domes later on in the game when you don't necessarily have to, you'll see that their condition was improving (if ever so slightly) because the seeds sprouted and gave the people hope that the planet could come back to life. The general plotline of the game states that to save the future one must save the past, yet at the same time it emphasizes that the planet could continue to live even after the most dire circumstances. So we're both right.
But things ONLY got better (the plant sprouts) because of the time travelers, who did good things in the past to help the future. It's basically a metaphor to show the player that their actions are making a difference, and that their quest is worth persuing. Those plants won't last forever, especially in that enviornment. I'd give them half a year at the most before all the smog and lack of sunlight and nutrients kills them off. If Crono and friends never tried to defeat Lavos, the planet would have never recovered.
They were hurt when they walked outside?
Not in gameplay, but I bet if they decided to camp out for the night, they wouldn't wake up the next morning, presence of monsters and abundance of food aside.
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Trees are more durable than we give them credit for. If trees were able to grow on death peak in that condition (they're probably not from before the day of Lavos because that was 300 years earlier), then I'm sure that the seeds that sprouted could find some way to grow. Besides, if outside really was too dangerous for now, they could cultivate an indoor garden for food. It was still possible for the earth to come back to life because the dust would've cleared eventually
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Going based on Lavos = Death Peak or Lavos lives in Death Peak or Lavos strongly influenced and created Death Peak... I still see no reason to view those trees as not directly being influenced solely by Lavos' energy. That aside, the trees were on a mountain, above the cloud of polution. Aside from the sprout and the Death Peak trees where do you see plants?
As for the sprout, it does not follow logic either. The sprout is inside a place with no lighting or water... How does it grow? Truth be told I actually have to go with spirit energy helps make it grow... I know its something corny like the love of Marle, courage of Crono, and intelligence of Lucca help the sprout reach its potentional, and despite the fact I hate that and wish there was a much more plausiable theory (seeing as natural growth is not possible without sunlight in a dim factory...) but till someone else comes out with something that is what I must believe.
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In most storylines (and Japanese mythology, on the offchance that it had influence on the Chrono series) the planet's spiritual/magical energy and scientific (energy that exists in the real world) energy are one and the same, except in different forms. Like heat and light.
I suppose this scenario is somewhat similar to the "Lifestream" described in FF7. After the Lavos Spawn fully mature, no other living things could survive and the planet would just be a lifeless rock. In 2300 AD, the planet is on the edge of disaster and all that remains are mutants and those trees (which might be dead, anyway).
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In most storylines (and Japanese mythology, on the offchance that it had influence on the Chrono series) the planet's spiritual/magical energy and scientific (energy that exists in the real world) energy are one and the same, except in different forms. Like heat and light.
I suppose this scenario is somewhat similar to the "Lifestream" described in FF7. After the Lavos Spawn fully mature, no other living things could survive and the planet would just be a lifeless rock. In 2300 AD, the planet is on the edge of disaster and all that remains are mutants and those trees (which might be dead, anyway).
Eh might as well keep this up. I find it really hard to believe that those trees are dead. One, their on Death Peak, which is debated to be Lavos himself. If not then the fact that the tree can manage to stand despite winds that blow a regular human right off the mountian itself. Judging by the size of the tree(s) in respect to Crono and his party it's not all that large, or that wide. Yet its still able to stand undamaged against wind that fierce. But eh, could be just dead with -really- tough dead roots.
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Or it could just be winter in that part of the world, and the trees ARE dead, but for natural reasons =p
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They were hurt when they walked outside?
No, that's a myth. However, the air does look heavily polluted.
Really? I could have sworn that when you walk around in 2300 the first time it damages them...
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As for the sprout growing in unfavorable conditions, wasn't that seed called the Seed of Life? Implying it's like, the planet's last resort or something? It seems that Belthasar somehow created or bred it with his wisdom and magical power incase Lavos erupts. Why else would the Queen of Zeal go out of her way to make sure it's burned?
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As for the sprout growing in unfavorable conditions, wasn't that seed called the Seed of Life? Implying it's like, the planet's last resort or something? It seems that Belthasar somehow created or bred it with his wisdom and magical power incase Lavos erupts. Why else would the Queen of Zeal go out of her way to make sure it's burned?
Melchior tells the woman to save the plant. The Guru of Life. The Queen was crazy by that point, there may not be a logical reason for all of her actions.
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In Zeal, the woman says the Guru of Life gave her the sapling, but in the Last Village she claims it was the Guru of Time. There might have been a typo in the translation, or both Gurus gave her the plant... Anyway, in either case it wasn't Belthasar.
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The point I'm trying to make is that at 12000 the world was completely frozen over with little to no plant life. Yet the planet was able to come back to life after the ice melted, most likely due to the sprout that the Zeal woman kept. Now who's to say that this couldn't have happened in 2300. It looked like to me that the dust was beginning to settle a little bit. You can see the sun on death peak. I bet that the sprout in 2300 would've done the same thing that it did in 12000.
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If you tell her to burn it, everything is still the same 600 AD, so I don't think the sapling had much to do with reviving forests etc.
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I like to think Lavos' attack on Zeal brought an end to the Ice Age. Who knows, maybe the Ice Age ended before that, but after Zeal took the the skies it blocked off the sun.
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I like to think Lavos' attack on Zeal brought an end to the Ice Age. Who knows, maybe the Ice Age ended before that, but after Zeal took the the skies it blocked off the sun.
I think of it more as that the Zealians left the ground because of the ice age. And that Lavos's attack heated the planet enough to counter the effects of the ice age.
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Besides that there is also the Sun Palace that fell with Zeal... the Sun Palace stored a ton of solar energy and it probably discharged when it landed.
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Actually, the SUN STONE kept all that energy. The Sun Palace only kept a constant flow of sunlight on a fixed position, and we know that the Sun Stone couldn't of released it's energy in the way you're suggesting or otherwise it would never have been ready for Crono and co. to use.
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I'm surprised that the Zealians didnt take the sun/moonstone for study.
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I'm surprised that the Zealians didnt take the sun/moonstone for study.
They probably did until the existence of the power emanating from Lavos far exceeded their interest level than anything elemental.
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Maybe they didn't need to. Melchior knows it all, so it seems as if they've studied it through. They've studdied it so much that the elemental palace was closed, and the energy of the sunstone was no need anymore, since Lavos' power not only powers Zeal but also will make their dreams come true.
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And by thiers you mean Queen Zeal, since that was the only dream she meant.
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And by thiers you mean Queen Zeal, since that was the only dream she meant.
Melchior's dreams came true. Dalton got to rule... for a while. The other Zealians were also going to become immortal, except that Lavos ruined Zeal and woke up.
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And yet; there's no evidence Lavos was responsible for Melchior's dreams coming true, as they weren't dreams like Zeal pursued after, but dreams as in manifest thought forms. The phrase "Lavos makes your dreams come true" Is probably less literal than you take it to be, Zapar. I think it's more like how "Money can make all your dreams come true" or that the love of your life "Can make all your dreams come true."
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To them Lavos = endless fuel supply. Its not like he was some genie where you rub his shell and say "Hey Mr. Lavos! Please grant my 3 wishes." Lavos grants wishes the ways that the stock market can. However much like the stock market Lavos can suddenly turn and completely destroy you...
Those who exploit Lavos become happy, those who do not are just normal peoples.
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And yet; there's no evidence Lavos was responsible for Melchior's dreams coming true, as they weren't dreams like Zeal pursued after, but dreams as in manifest thought forms. The phrase "Lavos makes your dreams come true" Is probably less literal than you take it to be, Zapar. I think it's more like how "Money can make all your dreams come true" or that the love of your life "Can make all your dreams come true."
Well, there actually is evidence. But from anyones view, it can be twisted around to their advantage. For instance, we see that people in Zeal do recognise Lavos' Power. They see that when harnessed, dreams can be made to come true. Zeal used that power to become immortal herself. Everyone else pretty much got a high off it. The fact that Zeal became immortal and much more powerful from it shows that Lavos' power can affect things such as that.
Also, there also the fact that Masa and Mune became the sword once Lavos' energy was embeded into it. By possibly tapping into it, they got their physical bodies etc.
Also, why do people call me Zapar? It's Zaper at most lol, but everyone does it lool XD
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Also, why do people call me Zapar? It's Zaper at most lol, but everyone does it lool XD
Zapar rolls off the tongue easier than Zaper I guess. :P
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Atleast we're not calling you Zapper.
Anyway, seeing as how Masa and Mune were created long before the Masamune came in contact with Lavos, and how Lavos is one of the few people who wants NOTHING to do with Lavos....yea, whatever.
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Atleast we're not calling you Zapper.
Anyway, seeing as how Masa and Mune were created long before the Masamune came in contact with Lavos, and how Lavos is one of the few people who wants NOTHING to do with Lavos....yea, whatever.
I think you meant Melchior.
But remember, Melchior made the mammon machine along with the others. And he constantly had contact with dreamstone to make it, the flame and the pendant. Once he made the pendant, he probably charged it, coming in contact with that power.
Also, I distinctly remember someone saying or a quote in the game that said that Melchior studied Lavos before he was banished, so basically Melchior was neutral till he got to deep in the true secret of Lavos, defied the queen and got banished.
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I think that what they mean by the planet dying is more or less humanity. I think that there will always be life on the planet after Lavos. All it takes is one cell, whether bacteria or whatever. And also don't forget that the Sun is a constant energy source of a planet. trees and other plant life use the sun as energy. Unless the sun blacks out, there will always be an energy source for the planet. And there are mutants and wild animals on death peak. The planet will revive itself eventually, but human life would be over. There is still water on the planet and it even rains/snows in 2300 AD. As long as there is water, Sun, and an atmosphere, there is a chance that life can happen. I agree with Paradox.
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What sunlight? All the stuff that flys around in 2300 blocks the sunlight from coming in. Sure some gets in, but it's not the normal needed amount for things to grow properly. And what wild animals are on Death Peak?
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There were some monsters that you face while going up Death Mountain if I recall correctly. And you'd be surprised what plants can grow in any condition. I'm sure that there would've been some that would've been able to grow with little to no sunlight. Human life might be over, but there's other life that could find a way to live, even if it is just the mutants.
I honestly don't know why we're talking about a speculation for a future that didn't play out because Crono changed everthing, but it's something to discuss I suppose.
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The only other creatures besides the Krakkers (Which are baby Lavoids) that are on Death Peak are the Macabres and they certainly are not living.
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there is obviously sunlight in 2300AD. Its just not what we are used to seeing throughut the game. when you climb death peak, is it dark? When you reach the summit to use the time egg, is it dark. If I recall, you see the sun. And just because we don't see animals like deer or birds doesn't mean they don't exist in that time period. They could be hiding just like the humans were in the domes. And I believe that there were animals or insects in the SEWERS. Those are lifeforms that adapted to the environment
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Even the creatures in the labs are considered living things. People disregard them because they're enemies, but they're still living things that thrive in the future.
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there is obviously sunlight in 2300AD. Its just not what we are used to seeing throughut the game. when you climb death peak, is it dark? When you reach the summit to use the time egg, is it dark. If I recall, you see the sun. And just because we don't see animals like deer or birds doesn't mean they don't exist in that time period. They could be hiding just like the humans were in the domes. And I believe that there were animals or insects in the SEWERS. Those are lifeforms that adapted to the environment
Death Peak is a Peak mind you... when you reach the top you have broken the huge dust storm. Sunlight is worthless at Death Peak... proves nothing.
Sewer animals don't need an environment... they fed off the scraps of the previous civilization... in fact they are better off than the overworld, because they did not feel the devastation of Lavos' Damnation. They were underground... The overworld was blasted up to little pieces... I would also love to see the planet compete with Lavos Spawn which are growing up and eventually will demand the same as Lavos did... except there are a lot of them now...
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There are rays of sunlight that poke through, but most of the light is obscured. This can be verifiably proven by playing the Jet Bike game, which displays the horizon. There, you can see a few beams break through in spotty patterns.
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Umm....where the sewer animals are is in an environment. Read the definition. And who says that the dust cant settle, I mean look at our world when that big meteor hit and killed the dinosaurs, the dust cloud is not still here. And who says its dust anyways, how do we know that it isn't some huge storm, I mean it looks like snow to me. The point Im trying to get across is no matter what happens to the planet(except when it blows up) life will find a way to survive. The whole point of the apocalyptic future is to show us that human kind will be in danger of non existence.
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Then why would it matter that the planet is saved if it is going to survive regardless?
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1. We don't know if it will survive.
2. It's humankind that chrono and co. are saving. the planet and any other enteties are just a side effect.
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And yet multiple times within the story, Crono and co say they're not doing this for humanity, but for ALL living beings on the planet.
And you know, it's widely accepted that the Entity is the Planet, and that the Gates were created as a result of the Planet/Entity dying. So if you're going to make claims that the Planet will survive Lavos, you'll also have to prove to me who else can be the Entity. Good Luck.
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Umm....where the sewer animals are is in an environment. Read the definition. And who says that the dust cant settle, I mean look at our world when that big meteor hit and killed the dinosaurs, the dust cloud is not still here. And who says its dust anyways, how do we know that it isn't some huge storm, I mean it looks like snow to me. The point Im trying to get across is no matter what happens to the planet(except when it blows up) life will find a way to survive. The whole point of the apocalyptic future is to show us that human kind will be in danger of non existence.
That does not answer the most important question... how do weak and small sewer animals and mutants fight against the children of a space leech? Lavos spawn grow up to be big Lavos one day, I would love to see the planet handling adolescent Lavos times how many spawn there are... and then when they are in prime... really now, you do the math... if the planet barely "survives" (if you ask me it didn't) a single assault by a single Lavos what would be the result of that 5, 10, 20 50, 100, 200 fold even.. Lavos spawn could constantly born... we don't know of other possible spawning grounds on earth... fact is the Planet would not survive even if it somehow lived through the first attack.
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That does not answer the most important question... how do weak and small sewer animals and mutants fight against the children of a space leech? Lavos spawn grow up to be big Lavos one day, I would love to see the planet handling adolescent Lavos times how many spawn there are... and then when they are in prime... really now, you do the math... if the planet barely "survives" (if you ask me it didn't) a single assault by a single Lavos what would be the result of that 5, 10, 20 50, 100, 200 fold even.. Lavos spawn could constantly born... we don't know of other possible spawning grounds on earth... fact is the Planet would not survive even if it somehow lived through the first attack.
Who is saying that these creatures have to fight lavos? The Krakkers on death peak don't look like they were fighting Lavos. You are basing your post on if the spawn stay on the planet. We dont know if they stay until every bit of life dies, or if they wait. For all we know, the ones you see on Death peak can't leave the planet at all. And I'm pretty sure that if they stayed, they would have to compete with each other, hence the empty shells you find on Death Peak. I think that either they left or stayed and eventually died. Lavos sucked on the planet for years. It is weak, but it still can heal itself(not magically) over time. I don't think that spawn are continually being born, i always felt like the ones we see on Death Peak are remnants of the ones that possibly left already.
And can someone please show me proof that the Planet is the Entity. I refuse to belive that. Unless somone shows proof.
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According to the Japanese version, Krakkers are baby Lavoids.
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And can someone please show me proof that the Planet is the Entity. I refuse to belive that. Unless somone shows proof.
How about you show some proof that the planet would survive? It's pointless to ask for things that cannot be given.
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It is assumed that the planet is the entity because people draw a connection with the entity mentioned in CT and the planet conciousness mentioned in CC. The games themselves do not make the connection between the entity of CT and the planet of CC, but people assumed that it is implied and did not need to be explained. I don't have any proof that the entity is the planet. All I can give you is the reason people make the connection.
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And aside from that, the Planet as a conscious being is the only thing that fits the role of the Entity. No humanoid or mystic can do what the Entity did, Lavos isn't the one threatened, and no one else is involved. By process of elimination, it has to be the Entity. And seeing as how the only thing giving your theory for the survival of the Planet is the fact that you claim Entity =/= Planet, while the opposite is the majority view, you'd have to give us proof of who the Entity is, besides the Planet, before you can even begin to reason the Planet can survive the Apocalypse.
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Whoa!!! Wait a minute!! I'm not saying that the planet is the Entity, as a matter of fact I don't believe the planet is the Entity. I'm saying that naturally(dealing with the science of our world about planets and ecosystems, not magic) that the crono world could survive using that science.
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Lets use the logic of ecosystems alright...
From POV of the Planet: Lavos = a parastite.
Krakkers = Baby Lavos
Baby Lavos + Time => Lavos
Therefore: Krakkers + Time => Lavos
Furthermore: Krakkers + Time => Parasite
Now before these Krakkers grow they need resources. And until they reach certain age they will need energy and resources and suck it out of the host. The Host is not eachother or Lavos, but indeed it is the Planet... plus why would they leave if they did not have to? Explain that. Why should the Krakkers leave their host and resources. Using our ecosystems... animals and parasites take advantage of resources as mush as possible. Plus at least one of them (the strongest male if Lavos has gender) will stay and make the Planet their home. This cycle will continue, and eventually the rest of the animal won't have energy, because these Krakkers will grow to Lavos, who will absorb energy, who will give birth, whose spawn will grow and consume energy, and etc.
That is how natural ecosystems work... now explain how the Planet can counter it.
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I don't think that the Lavos Spawn could stay on the planet forever like you theorize. Lavos had to use most of the planet's energy it seems to survive and spawn. I would think that in order to survive, the spawn would have no choice but to go to other planets where they would be able to gather enough energy to gather enough to respawn, thus renewing the cycle onto other planets. No doubt some of the spawn would remain behind on earth, but chances are that they would not respawn unless they buried themselves again and allowed the planet to regrow life completely before they even thought about gathering more energy to make more spawns.
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Yes, but the spawns are going to stay on the surface and grow until there are no longer the resources to sustain them. At that point the planet will be a lifeless rock.
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It all ends with a dead planet, infertile and incapable of supporting life...
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Who's to say that they have to stay until all of the energy is sucked up? What if they left when they were mature enough to find their own planet, not necessarily when the planet runs out of energy? The planet would then be left with the capability to recover.
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According to natural ecosystems, one would probably stay, reproduce and keep a heavy drain on the planet. Always in nature there is one offspring (usually strong male) who is too lazy to leave the home, and takes it for themself.
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Even if they didn't, eventually life would die out due to a lack of a constant source of energy. It's just the same energy being passed around, which, in the trophic system, is depleting every generation. Say a fish has 100 units of energy, and it's eaten by a bird. That bird will only receive 10 units of that energy. Eventually, all the energy will be used up any way you look at it unless the Palace of the Sun explodes or something.
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Once again, the planet would be dead and lifeless. Besides, the point of CT was you try to alter present to prevent destruction in future... I really dont see where people get rebirth as the theme of CT.
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No one said that "Rebirth" was the theme of CT. What I believe is that they were trying to save mankind moreso than the Planet. People say the planet because they believe the "Planet" started this great adventure for crono and co. to save itself.
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No one said that "Rebirth" was the theme of CT. What I believe is that they were trying to save mankind moreso than the Planet. People say the planet because they believe the "Planet" started this great adventure for crono and co. to save itself.
Or maybe they say that because the last chapter's Japanese name is "The End of Our Planet's Dream" and because Chrono Cross's instruction book blatantly states that "The Dream of our Planet once had defeated the darkness and brought forth a brighter future".
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And then when you add the Planet Dream stuff to the entity discussion in CT... well you kind of get the idea that this all was an attempt by the Planet to save itself from Lavos.
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and how the Earth is all barren and stuff. That helps.
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ok. I understand. thanx for clearing that up.