Chrono Compendium
Enhasa Halls - Chrono Series Analysis => Characters, Plot, and Themes => Topic started by: Dark Serge on April 08, 2009, 11:01:23 am
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Well, as we all know, Belthasar designed the Blackbird. But he didn't actually build it. In fact, it was Dalton who oversaw the construction of the Blackbird in 12,000 BC, which means he had the blueprints.
Now then, I wondered; perhaps Dalton engineered a second Blackbird after the first one fell? Perhaps he used it against Guardia.
It's yet another thing to explain how Porre won over Guardia. We already noted the elements of El Nido, Dragonian artifacts, maybe the Sun Stone, and other stuff. But perhaps he also constructed a new Blackbird in Porre.
It's a long shot, but hey it's possible right?
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If he still had the blueprints before falling into the Dimensional Vortex, then that's a possibility. Otherwise, I doubt he could manage the construct of a second Blackbird.
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Could be, considering that 1,000 AD is capable of building such thing at a smaller scale (or at least in the alpha version), but still, they could not have the same means Zeal had to build the blackbird, so even with the blueprints, they are obsolete if construction is not possible.
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Just because he attacks Guardia around 1000AD doesn't mean a neo-blackbird was made then...considering he was in a dimensional vortex and all.
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1005 AD, but there's a possibility. Also, part of me is wondering if Dalton could travel through time periods using the Dimensional Vortex. After all, the Vortex appears in three time periods, right?
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Yes, but they don't seem to be connected to each other, I think.
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Is there any evidence that he did this?
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Afraid not. The plans for the Blackbird could have been lost during the Fall of Zeal. Still, Dalton may have been crafty enough to remember parts of them and forge a new Blackbird. The only flaw I can think of is a lack of materials to build it.
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The Blackbird was build by Belthasar. Dalton had nothing to do with it.
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How could Belthasar build such a thing single handedly? Actually, it was also said in CT that Dalton was the one who oversaw the construction of the Ocean Palace (also designed by Belthasar), and that Ocean Palace wasn't complete yet when Belthasar was already missing.
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According to the Encyclopedia:
Queen Zeal placed Dalton in charge of the Ocean Palace's construction after Belthasar's disappearance in the Keystone Timelines; he used slave labor from the Earthbound ones. The Prophet later edged him out of this position, placing him in a typically bad mood. He soon diverted his attention to the Blackbird, as he was now in charge of its security.
Although security most certainly does not equal construction...I'll look through the original script to see if it says anything definitive. But didn't Dalton manage to revamp the Epoch with pieces of the Blackbird? If so, he must have some technical knowledge/oversight...
Nonetheless I doubt Dalton would engineer a second Blackbird. Material-wise, he's probably lacking necessary parts/equipment to build such a sophisticated piece of machinery.
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he must have some technical knowledge/oversight...
That's what I've been saying all the time, but most people seem to think he laid back while the Dalton Corps did it.... Yea....
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Not another one of these discussions. Dalton may play the part of the buffoon but who says he's completely incompetent. He is just sorta foolish. But then again just how smart are the people in 1000AD? How smart are the people in 12000BC? He obviously has some power and intelligence, maybe enough to build tanks and stuff. Listen the point: He did it. He overthrew Crono and Marle. He was obviously smart enough to leave the ocean palace and save the blackbird(and some of his troops) before the fall. You guys just don't want to admit the fact that he finally won. I for one believe that with Norris and Luccia he was able to make some awesome stuff. Maybe that Ruin where they found the Strong Arm was Belthazar's lab from the fall. Maybe thats how he won. He had knowledge to share with Luccia and Norris about the stuff they found.
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I'll accept the fact he won, but that doesn't make it any less profoundly retarded.
Not at all the good kind of retarded I'd expect from this series.
But yeah, Dalton didn't work at all on modifying the Epoch, that was pretty clear from watching the game. He sat in the main chair/throne and told them to put some bitchin' wings and lasers on it. (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v203/maggiekarp/poshul/seris-daltonisadirtygayboy.png) (link... slightly NSFW) I'll give you that Dalton had some powerful magic and Golems, but it seems to me that after fighting Lavos he wouldn't be that difficult. Saying elements gave him the upper hand is like saying level one Serge could beat Crono if he had a black rock to throw at him.
The major problem here though is that we don't see anything of Dalton rising to power or corrupting Porre or fighting Guardia outside of the end result. If he had a bigger role in Trigger, or if his story was handled differently, it could have been an awesome thing, like EARTHBOUND/MOTHER3 SPOILERS Pokey/Porky being the main villain of Mother 3, a character who was even more ridiculous than Dalton.END SPOILERS. That was believable, the Dalton thing is just laughable.
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Saying elements gave him the upper hand is like saying level one Serge could beat Crono if he had a black rock to throw at him.
Your right, but remember Dalton had an entire army. Why wouldn't they all have elements? Sending wave after wave of element holding soldiers would eventually take Crono down. Lavos was powerful, not overwhelming. He could take out cities but there was still only one of him.
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Yes, but HOW did he get an army? How did they get so powerful? How was he able to convince them to attack Guardia when they were seemingly peaceful with one another? What happened to Guardia's army and technology and super powerful items?
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Your right, but remember Dalton had an entire army. Why wouldn't they all have elements?
Because elements would have been a non-issue.
They come from El Nido, which is protected by FATE, which had the specific goal of preventing El Nido from aversely influencing the Timeline. Either Elements were significant enough to change the timeline, in which case FATE wouldn't have let them out of El Nido, or they were insignificant enough to not change the timeline, in which case it wouldn't matter if Porre's army had them.
Elements might have been involved in the fall of Guardia, but they logically could not have played a significant role. At best, they were the rainbow sprinkles on Dalton's Sunday of Victory.
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Yes, but HOW did he get an army? How did they get so powerful? How was he able to convince them to attack Guardia when they were seemingly peaceful with one another? What happened to Guardia's army and technology and super powerful items?
Well, it's possible Porre was already half-way through all that, and Dalton just used that to his advantage once he arrived there, or in the case they didn't planned any military campaign, after Dalton arrived he was responsible for their military rise.
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Yes, but HOW did he get an army? How did they get so powerful? How was he able to convince them to attack Guardia when they were seemingly peaceful with one another? What happened to Guardia's army and technology and super powerful items?
To know that, you'll have to wait until Square announces Chrono Crusade: The Rise of Porre
@ Thought: I don't think FATE would (or could, for that matter) stop people from taking elements outside of El Nido. And their significance; we've seen first-hand how significant they are, right? I doubt the lvl 1 Elements would matter much, but an army with lvl 5+ Elements equipped VS people who don't know magic...
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Even if FATE could stop it, I don't think that's what it wanted. After all, it let Viper and the others go to the mainland during the war. Guardia's fall was important if that allowed making an exception to the rule.
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@ Thought: I don't think FATE would (or could, for that matter) stop people from taking elements outside of El Nido. And their significance; we've seen first-hand how significant they are, right? I doubt the lvl 1 Elements would matter much, but an army with lvl 5+ Elements equipped VS people who don't know magic...
It was mind controlling the entire populace of El Nido. It could prevent them from selling Elements to Porre and it could have controlled theives to steal any that the army managed to get. A handful might have been able to get out into the wide world even if FATE didn't want them to, but not enough for an army.
Even if FATE could stop it, I don't think that's what it wanted. After all, it let Viper and the others go to the mainland during the war. Guardia's fall was important if that allowed making an exception to the rule.
Exactly! If FATE wasn't worried about the Elements leading to the Fall of Guardia, then that was either because the Elements couldn't tip the scales or because the Fall of Guardia happened before the Time Crash (thus not being an event Fate needed to prevent), which meant that there was a timeline in which Guardia fell without El Nido existing in the world (thus, a fall sans elements). If Porre didn't need elements then, it wouldn't need them now. And if Porre did need them then, they wouldn't have had access to them now.
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Mind controlling? FATE instructs the El Nido inhabitants via the Records of FATE, yes, but I doubt it's mind controlling. Think of all the inhabitants who join up with Serge and end up fighting FATE.
In the 1005 AD of Keystone T-2, Chronopolis has been there since 12,000 BC. I don't think it's possible to say if the Fall of Guardia happened in the Lavos timeline or not.
Or, FATE just didn't care about the Fall of Guardia and let it happen.
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Of course that in the Lavos timeline it didn't happened.
It's in Keystone T-1 where an El Nido-less world witnessed the Fall of Guardia.
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Of course that in the Lavos timeline it didn't happened.
It's in Keystone T-1 where an El Nido-less world witnessed the Fall of Guardia.
Yeah that's what I meant. How can you be so sure about that?
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Because in the mainland things went the same in both Keystones (at least until 920 AD). But I don't think that makes that much of a difference to make Guardia not fall in T-1.
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Well, if Guardia didn't fall in T-1, it means that Porre defeated Guardia thanks to El Nido's existence. Looking at it like that, it does seem like a long shot.
Argh, this gives me a headache
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Actually, RD confirms it, since it's a variation of T-1. Guardia still fell to a militaristic Porre. They don't need El Nido.
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Dalton and his cronies had the know-how how to make the Epoch flyable.
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Well, if Guardia didn't fall in T-1, it means that Porre defeated Guardia thanks to El Nido's existence. Looking at it like that, it does seem like a long shot.
Except Guardia couldn't have fallen thanks to El Nido's direct influence on the outside world. True, FATE didn't control the residents like mindless zombies, but it was able to utterly change people's lives by causing them to give up or take up this or that activity. Preventing them from shipping Elements to the outside world is hardly much of a stretch of its capabilities.
This isn't to say that Elements could have been the cause, certainly, but as it stands, elements are a very unlikely cause. A different area of investigation is more likely to be profitable.
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I'm sure he had at least some advanced knowledge of engineering in like we would if we traveled to a somewhat backwards culture and told them junk they might not know like, "Did you know you can make limestone from gunpowder?" (where my juggalos at? lol)...but I highly doubt he just happened to have the Blackbird blueprints on-hand when he went through his failed summoning...there's also that Magical prowess he would have over everyone...or he could just burp/fart at them...>_>
It may or may not also be interesting to note that the Level 7 yellow summon Element is Golem...Though idk if it's the same word in both Japanese versions making it an actual reference or if it was just a generic word used to call it in CC that happened to be the name of those bosses from CT...*shrugs* They don't really look especially like one another...
(http://www.chronocompendium.com/images/wiki/e/e6/Yellowsummons.png)
(Golem left, ThundaSnake right)
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I think that might be a coincedence and they couldn't come up with anything else for a yellow summon.
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Golems also aren't terribly unique creatures; they get used all over video game culture. So while it could be a connection, there is also a strong possibility that it is random coincidence.
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What if Dalton didn't use the Blackbird, but actually used the Epoch during CT? It is a time machine, and he could have gone and come back without Crono & co being any the wiser.
LAZERS!!
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Time Error
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The funny thing is when some people try to argue gameplay rules and mechanics as being the reason why Dalton shouldn't have been able to win assuming Crono, Marle and possibly Lucca were present during the battle resulting in the Fall of Guardia. You can't just go ahead and say things like "Crono would blast them all with Luminare! END OF STORY!" That's like saying "Cloud should have used a Phonix Down on Aries when Sephiroth attacked her!" Bottom line is outside of a battle system anything goes. Even the most seasoned warrior can lose a battle if the opponent can get in a lucky hit, catch them off guard, fight them after they were seriously injured, ect.
The Fall of Guardia still has many unanswered questions such as what happened to Crono and Marle, why did Porre attack, ect. What we do know is that Kato did hint a long time ago that a source outside the normal flow of time is what resulted in the fall. Dalton's lines in CTDS seem to confirm that the mystery man in that cut scene who's shadow strangely looks like Dalton could have very well indeed been Dalton. And while I doubt a Blackbird like machine would have been possible in Zenan around 1005 AD we do know that there is other technology avalible as shown early game with the Dragon Tank, Lucca's ablilty to make guns, energy based pistols and other machines, ect. In my mind it doesn't matter if Dalton had the know how to engineer the Blackbird/build it from the original blueprints. At the end of the day Zeal was FAR more advanced than any city or nation in 1000 AD so it stand's likely that even if he wasn't great with machines he'd at least know enough to help possibly make something Porre could use in the war. As someone else said it would be like one of us going back in time 100-200 years. I'm no genius but I'm fairly decent with some handguns. If I went back in time to a period that still used flintlocks and if I had the right materials I'd bet I could teach them how to make a revolver with what I do know.
The bottom line is like it or not either directly or indirectly Dalton was the one who crushed Guardia. He was the one with the bone to pick with Crono, Marle and Lucca and at the end of the day while he can appear somewhat foolish and sure as hell isn't Belthasar he is far more dangerous than he appears and with 1000 AD tech could most likely do some damage. The only way we will know anything for sure is when Chrono Break is finally announced.
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To be fair though, most of Zeal's achievements were Magically based, not technological.
I don't think there is a bottom line, or at least it's no where near as defined as all that...We know that 'someone' from outside of normal time was more than likely Dalton, but we don't know how much influence he actually had or what exactly he even did...For all we know he slipped on a banana peel meant for a Porrean officer or something and then he got locked up for disturbing of face...Like you say, we won't know until Chrono 4 (I don't hold on to dead names)...
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Ok so either we're all aware or have seen that Dalton said he'd turn Porre into a militaristic nation and defeat guardia, though i would have to say that judging from the weaponry used without Lucca and her father. Guardia's technological strength was pretty much zilch, plus the fact that if you play Cross. You see how the Porre Military are equipped you can see that they're well armed especially Norris who is although one of the Commanders leading them to the conclusion that if you have enough guns not even the toughest knight armor is safe. True one could also argue this is an alternate universe like 10-16 years after Trigger, but i still don't think that Crono or Marle would simply just roll over and let Porre win. Something happened though that triggered the entire conflict, that triggered the sea of eden, the same something that affected the Time Crash. What is is though is up to Square-Enix to figure out cause i sure as hell know that Cross didn't explain it well enough or in any great detail other than what we got.
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You know, for some reason I get the feeling we are going to get another Chrono game. And I just know it will explain this. Mainly because they had him say that. They wouldn't foreshadow it with no reason. That and Guile is Magus. Also the Leah thing. I don't know why, but I just have the feeling it would happen. At least in Cross remake. Sony might just let them do it. Or maybe it will be how the 360 plans to bone the PS3 once and for all. I just got the feeling it's going to happen. Chrono Trigger DS couldn't just be testing the market, no one is stupid enough to try to sell a game three times and expect a break out hit each time. No matter how good it is.
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... leading them to the conclusion that if you have enough guns not even the toughest knight armor is safe.
Doesn't work that way in RPGs. Swords exist right along side guns and the former is generally more powerful than the latter, which have a nasty habit of dealing very little damage (compared to the leathalness of guns in the real world, take a bullet to the head in an RPG and a potion will be more than enough to undo the effects).
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Chrono Trigger DS couldn't just be testing the market, no one is stupid enough to try to sell a game three times and expect a break out hit each time. No matter how good it is.
4 times for the US and Japanese markets, less for PAL. And yes, products do that in video games quite a bit. How many times has Super Mario Bros (the well-known NES game) been rehashed and repacked? Enough times to be accessible on just about ever single console made by nintendo at least once.
Video games are all about money. Outside of the strange politics that has gotten involved in the Chrono Series, its the only driving force and statistic that matters to makers. Why hasn't there been another Chrono game to continue the story? "At E3 2009, SE Senior Vice President Shinji Hashimoto remarked, "If people want a sequel, they should buy more!"
What is is though is up to Square-Enix to figure out cause i sure as hell know that Cross didn't explain it well enough or in any great detail other than what we got.
They probably don't know either. That's part of why they can be scared of fan projects that try to interpret the series events for them.
Now the thing with guns and Rpg's, is just because its a 'gun' doesn't mean its as potent as the ones we use. One of lucca's early weapons was an air gun right? Based on how they develop their long range weapons, it's ammunition and projection force might do little to actually pierce armor, or break the skin. Heck, we don't even see archers in the olden eras of the game. As far as the Overthrow is concerned, they might have been using something more akin to a taser than a gun by our standards.
As far as Dalton's involvement goes, I wouldn't be surprised if he got some of the mystics to side with him. He is a potent caster, and mystics have disguised themselves before. Combine the numbers form Porre with the mystic continents, and a large force could effectively force a surrender.