Chrono Compendium
Enhasa Halls - Chrono Series Analysis => Lavos, the Planet, and other Entities => Topic started by: beaner 14 on July 31, 2005, 01:25:57 am
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in the ocean palace when you fight Lavos to prevent Crono's death why does it seem that Lavos is stronger than when youd normally fight him through the bucket, epoch, etc.
Its it because of the Mammon Machine, or you just not supposed to beat him there, like to keep the story goin
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or you just not supposed to beat him there, like to keep the story goin?
Exactly. They made him stronger because the main storyline is so that they all faint from the fight and the story continues from there. Though u can beat him, it just finishes the game though.
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I think it could be because of the Mammon Machine being so close. I mean, that's the whole point of why Lavos bugs out in the first place and decides to wreck havoc on Zeal, yeah? Don't fuck w/Lavos's energy people! It get's it all PO'd and uberpowerful.
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I don't think Lavos is any stronger, it's probably just because your party is much weaker at this point in the game as opposed to when you fight him after completing all the other main and side quests.
I'd bet if you beat Lavos at the end of the game with a level-55 party and then started a new game+ and fought Lavos in the Ocean Palace with the same level-55 party, you'd probably lay the smackdown on Lavos just like you did beforehand.
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I don't think Lavos is any stronger, it's probably just because your party is much weaker at this point in the game as opposed to when you fight him after completing all the other main and side quests.
I'd bet if you beat Lavos at the end of the game with a level-55 party and then started a new game+ and fought Lavos in the Ocean Palace with the same level-55 party, you'd probably lay the smackdown on Lavos just like you did beforehand.
Agreed. You're ill-equiped and badly trained to beat Lavos. If you'd have the Rainbow and all the other Ultimate weapos along with Prism Mail's (Or whichever equilvent there is in CT) you could kick the shit out of Lavos...
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Actually, I'm fairly sure people have checked and Lavos' Destruction Rains From the Heavens does more damage during the Ocean Palace incident sequence.
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Actually, I'm fairly sure people have checked and Lavos' Destruction Rains From the Heavens does more damage during the Ocean Palace incident sequence.
No, it does more damage because you have lesser armor. Prism mails can cut the damage two, nay, three times less. So... There.
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No, what I mean, is that people CHECKED that already. Y'know? Doing comparisons? Not w/different armors or different levels or anything. Heck, I'm pretty sure they could've just checked the coding if they were uber 1337 or w/e those crazy kids are calling themselves these days...
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No, what I mean, is that people CHECKED that already. Y'know? Doing comparisons? Not w/different armors or different levels or anything. Heck, I'm pretty sure they could've just checked the coding if they were uber 1337 or w/e those crazy kids are calling themselves these days...
Hmm, makes no sense to me, considering how you can beat him just as easily as would in 1999 on New Game+....
And do you have anyone who checked? Something from GameFAQ's or w\e?
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how you can beat him just as easily as would in 1999 on New Game+....
Uh, what?
And yeah, it was from over at GameFAQs, since that's where them h4x0r people I remember always were at....
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Either way is valid. Perhaps Lavos is indeed stronger stat-wise when you face him in the Ocean Palace. But thanks to the glory of new game+, it's negated when you return fully equiped and more powerful. Besides, if you weren't playing a new game+, you probably wouldn't notice anyhow. Lavos would mop the floor with you.
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I know for a fact he is much stronger, the shell is anyway. I'm going through now and getting all the endings for FFC and I had a 3 person party on a new game + and fought him and he killed all my characters except for Crono and I ended up defeating the shell just using luminaire and curing every other turn. This is around level 55 or 56. There was no save point inside him and then when I fought the actual Lavos...I died :cry: cause I had a shit party. I was just trying to get past it and see if it was possible.
However, I did get the Developer's Room ending by starting a new game + and beating Lavos with just Crono and Marle. Same levels as the one in ocean palace and everything. He's DEFINITELY harder in ocean palace. His Destruction Rains from the Heavens was clocking in at around 400 on Crono, and up to 700 on marle. This was with good armor and accessories. While facing him through the right telepod time gate, the destruction rains only does around 100 or so to each of my characters.
In the ocean palace, Lavos only uses 3 moves and in sequence. Destruction Rains, Chaotic Zone, and the Needle Strike. The Neddle Strike is what really f00ked me.
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how can you say hes not harder??
i went through with a New Game +
i had the moon armor rainbow, nova armor, prism helms, and all that other stuff and still got my shit ROCKED hes is like ALOT ALOT stronger
im thinkin it is because of the mammon machine though
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Yes, Lavos is statistically stronger in the Ocean Palace than ANYWHERE else. As for where I got that info from...me. I checked it myself.
Take a look using the program Crone (available at Zophar's Domain). Under the Ocean Palace category, you'll find this incarnation of Lavos, with a little monster # and all that stuff. Then scroll to the end of the game and check out Lavos there. His stats are *MUCH* lower (like 10,000 fewer HP, I think like half the attack power, etc) and it's a different monster number.
So it's not just because of your equipment. He really IS that much stronger. Technically speaking, it's a different "monster" that you fight at the OP than at all other times.
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THANK YOU
thats what i was tryin to get across i just dint have the proof to show it
thanks
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*Highfives Jake-A-Roonie*
I never believe those GameFAQs hax0rs. Ew. >_> and yea Mammon Machine + Lavos = Junk Stomping.
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haha yea man
Lavos + Mammon Machine are like woh, what makes that connection though
why does the mammon machine boost up lavos like ALOT
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Well, I think the Mammon Machine is meant to "absorb and amplify" his power, but if he's that close to it, he probably just absorbs his own amplified power and feeds from it. Who knows.
Or, as has been stated, they made him stronger there because you're NOT supposed to beat him then. :)
EDIT: *looks at rank avatar* Yeah baby, I'm a Zealian now! :D
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hahahaha congrats on the Zealian :P
also when you fight lavos's third form and he brings back the left bit (lavos's right) it looks like he is comin in from space, the black background and the stars, does this have anything to do with where you fight him.
i always thought you were just fighting him threw time, since he existed in all eras, and your gettin rid of him in all eras, or do you fight him in space?
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Not quiet. Before Lavos sends out the bit, it's just the inner-part of his shell. After that, it's a time warp. If you notice, you can see Leene Square, 2300 A.D. etc, etc.
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yea i saw the time warp stuff
i just thought maybe like they were in space doing them time warp things
i dunno just a presumption
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Well, a lot of people say it's the Tesseract, which is essentially where time-transcending entities like Lavos end up when they die. Since Lavos transcends time, he doesn't just "no longer exist" in the future, but in other time periods as well... Hence his entire existence basically gets banished to the Tesseract, which is similar to the Darkness Beyond Time -- or maybe it IS the Darkness Beyond Time. Anyway, that's the idea.
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i figured that you fightin him through time and stuff is like you gettin rid of him in all the time periods
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Hmm, possibly, but the idea most people have pitched is that the images are Lavos' memories. Just as Marle and Lucca discussed the idea of your life flashing before your eyes before you die, it's essentially Lavos' life flashing before his eyes, or something to that effect...especially once you kill him and all the images flash by real fast.
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When he dies, it is the images. When you fight him, he's not dead yet. Hence, his life can't be flashing before his eyes. Lavos' evolved form is like, the most powerful thing alive. IT FRIGGIN CONTROLS TIME! He just goes through Time Period to Time Period to confuse your party. Plus, he uses certain attacks with certain Time Periods in the background. 'Sides, it's the final battle for an epic adventure. They had to make it cool, somehow.
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When Lavos changes time periods, it changes its attack patterns. The time change itself is also considered and attack, for if you have a beserker equipped the equipee will attack the center bit during a time change.
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Hey, all the GameFAQs h4x0r5 I was thinking of probably became Compendiumers...I mean, they were the people at GameFAQs who actually knew what they were talking about...I just make them sound stupid by calling them h4x0r5 because i'm such a n00b. :lol:
Oh, and yeah, the Tesserect is just another name for the DBT. But you fight Lavos in it's PD, not the DBT...
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Even the third form is the PD? I guess it would make sense, but I would think that it is something separate from the PD, since they are actually traveling through time.
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Yeah, i'm not exactly sure on that...PD & DBT stuff isn't exactly my most experienced topics (since they delve more into CC stuff)...Perhaps the PD is being moved through time? Or they are just images? Do they judge what attacks Lavos uses?
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yea the time change for some reason is an attack it does like 1 hp damage to your first character in the party, im pretty sure thats all it does though
why would it do damage though?
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Yeah, i'm not exactly sure on that...PD & DBT stuff isn't exactly my most experienced topics (since they delve more into CC stuff)...Perhaps the PD is being moved through time? Or they are just images? Do they judge what attacks Lavos uses?
I am positive that the center bits attacks are based on what time period they are in. Maybe they are in the PD, but are seeing outside of it into the time they are at? They are not surrounded by it, it looks kind of like a big window, if I remember right.
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I was thinking that since the PD is connected to all time periods it gives it a sense of fighting him across time but also still in the PD. Maybe it's how Lavos could view what was going on in the different time periods? Maybe they're aren't so much as going into that time period, but connecting with it. Warping your connection from one to the other to show Lavos' control over time in the PD.
The one thing I'm not so sure of is, if they are defeating him in the PD, why would he be around in CC at all. If the PD is truly a separate dimension which is only connected to the other time periods and dimensions, then by defeating Lavos in the PD in CT, it seems like the basis behind Cross is voided. UNLESS they are fighting him in the DBT for one reason only which is to free Schala. Lavos should have no affect on the events in CC if he is defeated and thrown into the DBT.
If this is a topic that has already been covered then I'm sorry, or if what I'm saying sounds right just clarify it for me. Or if I'm way off, just correct me.
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Well, it's like I said earlier in the thread:
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The Tesseract ... is essentially where time-transcending entities like Lavos end up when they die. Since Lavos transcends time, he doesn't just "no longer exist" in the future, but in other time periods as well... Hence his entire existence basically gets banished to the Tesseract, which is similar to the Darkness Beyond Time -- or maybe it IS the Darkness Beyond Time. Anyway, that's the idea.
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Now, "normal" entities that die conventionally (such as a human getting killed) aren't erased from the past, only the future. So their "future" and all possible future timelines that include them in it end up in the Tesseract/DBT. Since Lavos was killed, boom, he was in the DBT. Schala is there at the time as well and he ensnared her, but we honestly don't know how she got there. We have theories of course (temporal disturbances during the Ocean Palace disaster may have caused a number of time paradoxes that we couldn't see, and without knowing where to "put" Schala, the laws of time just kinda threw her aside into the "trash can" of time, the DBT), but none are entirely 100% solid. But I digress.
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Yes but since Lavos was erased from existence, the only purpose in Chrono Cross is to save Schala. It's not to defeat the TD.
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Lavos was erased from linear existence (ie timelines) only. That erasure from linear existence sent him to the DBT where he began to basically just eat the dang universe including time itself. So actually yes, he was still a threat that STILL needed to be dealt with.
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is there any possible way for lavos to just be done like no more existence at all like not from timelines alone but like everything like there is no more lavos?
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Killing him in the tesseract should have that effect, right?
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Nothing has ever died in the Tesseract before, so we don't know. CC's ending didn't really tell much about the fate of any of the characters, let alone Lavos. Presumably, he's finally gone from everything. As I referred to the Tesseract/DBT earlier as the "trash can" of time, think of it as emptying your recycle bin. ;) So yeah, hopefully that means he's gone for good.
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Good explanations Mr. Jake-A-Roonie. So beating him in his PD sent him to the Tesseract, and THAT is where they finished him off, saving Schala as well.
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Or finishing Schala as well, depending on how stupid Serge was being at the time... :roll:
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If you defeat the Time Devourer conventionally, he dissapears into a portal, and who knows WTF that led to or whatever. If you use the Chrono Cross and save Schala, Lavos seems to be like...denied existence. Destroyed. Forever. Erased. Or atleast that's what comes to MY mind when you're drained of color, turn to glass, shatter, and all your shards vanish indefinately and all your work is undone via a timeline convergence.
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If you defeat the Time Devourer conventionally, he dissapears into a portal, and who knows WTF that led to or whatever. If you use the Chrono Cross and save Schala, Lavos seems to be like...denied existence. Destroyed. Forever. Erased. Or atleast that's what comes to MY mind when you're drained of color, turn to glass, shatter, and all your shards vanish indefinately and all your work is undone via a timeline convergence.
In fact, I got the idea he became part of the Tesseract, like timelines that become deleted.
But yeah, his existence is denied. While it's not quiet the "drained of color, turn to glass, shatter, and all your shards vanish indefinately" thing. More like drained of color, having youself broken to particles that scatter throughout nothingness. Oh, and having found that cute girl who sat on your back for over ten thousand years now has a new little friend to magiclly torture. First off, deleting his memory! Next up, burning down Arni Village for no reason at last!
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I don't know that Schala did that on purpose to Serge... More like she just knew that the Chrono Cross would have that effect by reuniting the timelines. Judging by her feelings for him, I imagine she would want him to remember.
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since he gets thrown into the Tesseract, he cant like break out of that and start screwin stuff up again could he
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I don't think so... The only way he could screw things up from the DBT was by just eating time. =P But since he's too weak to even do THAT now...
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theres no way he could get power back?? like i dunno somehow get energy from like another human like what happened with schala
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Well, I suppose so. IF he could drain energy from nonexistant timelines (timelines that have been sent into the Tesseract, such as the timeline where he overtakes the earth), then he'd have a shot at becoming the Time Devourer again. But I think the idea is he's too weak to even drain energy like that again.
I guess Lavos is (again) like Sauron... He was in his big almighty form (CT/beginning of Fellowship Of The Ring), he got his butt whooped and was weakened but still a threat (CC/the rest of LotR). Finally he got totally eliminated (via the Chrono Cross/via the Ring's destruction).
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Well, I suppose so. IF he could drain energy from nonexistant timelines (timelines that have been sent into the Tesseract, such as the timeline where he overtakes the earth), then he'd have a shot at becoming the Time Devourer again. But I think the idea is he's too weak to even drain energy like that again.
how does timelines give him energy??
so really hes just pretty much done just to stay in Tesseract and just like rot away, well not rot but just stay there and too weak to do anything
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Time is like food to him...I guess.
And yes, he'll just sit there and watch everyone go on with their happy little lives and he'll hate them for all eternity! :twisted:
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haha id be mad at them guys to if they did that to me and i had to watch them live their lives
so he eats the timelines?? im confused like a piece of paper timeline? im like real confused
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Imagine a black hole. It consumes space, right? Well, the Time Devourer is like a black hole that consumes time. Past, present, future, in all possible timelines that diverge because of individual choices.
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Getting back on topic, I finally managed to pull up Lavos' stats in each battle. Check this out.
1999 AD Lavos
Lv: 15 (Yeah, only 15!!! Imagine if he was Lv99! Even the Core is only Lv50!)
HP: 10,000
Attack: 73
Defense: 127 (which is standard for most enemies)
Magic: 1
Speed: 12
Evade: 20
Magic Def: 50
Compare that with:
Ocean Palace Lavos
Lv: 20
HP: 30,000 (3 times as much!)
Attack: 180 (More than double)
Defense: 127 (standard)
Magic: 2
Speed: 16 (so, 33% faster)
Evade: 11
Magic Def: 50
3 times as many HP, more than double the attack power, and 1/3 more speed spells OUCH.
Just for your amusement, check out the stats on these too:
Lavos Inner Body (not counting the arms)
Lv: 50
HP: 20,000
Attack: 45
Defense: 255 (maximum)
Magic: 50
Speed: 16
Evade: 20
Magic Def: 100 (maximum)
And these stats for the Lavos Core:
Left Bit
Lv: 50
HP: 2000
Attack: 40
Defense: 127
Magic: 40
Speed: 16
Evade: 20
Magic Def: 50
That spells pushover. Next...
Center Bit
Lv: 50
HP: 10,000
Attack: 100
Defense: 127
Magic: 21
Speed: 16
Evade: 20
Magic Def: 50
The maximum for attack power is 255...and he's only at 100! That slap hurts enough as it is. Ouch... And now for...
Lavos Core
Lv: 50
HP: 30,000
Attack: 40
Defense: 255
Magic: 40
Speed: 16
Evade: 20
Magic Def: 100
Interesting stuff, eh?
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so he eats the timelines?? im confused like a piece of paper timeline? im like real confused
A timline is all the events that happened in a certain dimension, or a portion of a whole timeline. It's just basically a timeline (not the kind you make on paper).
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ahhhhh i get the whole time line thing
wow his attack is only 100, that pimp slap like kills people or brings them down to like 100 when their defense is like 170ish
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That's cool. Hey Jake-A-Roonie, can you or someone else get the Time Devourer stats for comparison? They should be similar enough.
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Don't know about attack, but HP is between 10,000 to 11,000+... Less then Criosphinx, but I guess Criosphinx dosen't have Omega attacks...
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legend of the past that picture is awesome, EXCEPT where is sephiroths beastly sword??
dont the chriosphinx have around 13,000 and cant you just kill him in a riddle thing?
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dont the chriosphinx have around 13,000 and cant you just kill him in a riddle thing?
Yes you can beat him in a riddle, but you dont get the Sun shades if you do that. Got to do it the hard way for that. And it is hard haha.
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what do the sun shades do for you??
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Well, they're the opposite of the Moon Shades, duh! :lol:
Moon Shades - Up All (as in physical & magic...now, why didn't I just write that? who knows) Defense
Sun Shades - Up All (as in physical & magic...now, why didn't I just write that...again? who knows) Offense
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haha ohhh gotcha
thanks
i just wasnt sure i havent played that game in like 2 years, i just started a new guy yesterday and im on the ghost ship after beatin polly and whatnot so i forgot about 85% of that stuff
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That's cool. Hey Jake-A-Roonie, can you or someone else get the Time Devourer stats for comparison? They should be similar enough.
They're likely very different stats. A whole other game + a whole different platform = a whole different inner system. And no, I can't get them, unfortunately. I was able to pull the above stats straight out of the CT ROM using Crone.
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Yea, figures. :P Thanks Anyway. Although I'm sure measurements and parrellels can be made, it would involve lots of mathematics and stuff :P icky.
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it seems kinda really unlikely their stats would be similair to me, its practically a whole different life form now, and lavos was pretty whacked when he merged, as was schala, so yeh, i dont think their stats will be similair. also as Jake-A-Roonie said, "A whole other game + a whole different platform = a whole different inner system"
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it seems kinda really unlikely their stats would be similair to me, its practically a whole different life form now, and lavos was pretty whacked when he merged, as was schala, so yeh, i dont think their stats will be similair.
do you think lavos is stronger, or do you think the time devourer has more power, since you say there stats wouldnt be similiar
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Personally I'd say Lavos. Time Devourer seemed like a pushover (if you were just trying to kill it and not necessarily save Schala) in comparison... The TD was just a bigger threat because it was in a more strategic position than Lavos. If Lavos could have gotten into the DBT at full power, rest assured, it would have been a done deal.