Chrono Compendium
Enhasa Halls - Chrono Series Analysis => Lavos, the Planet, and other Entities => Topic started by: dreamaddict on March 12, 2006, 07:52:09 am
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I haven't read every post on the theory of Lavos and his motivations. So maybe I am saying what someone else has already thought of. But consider this:
Perhaps Lavos has a dream. A good dream. That once he collects enough DNA, he will undergo some sort of ultimate transcendent experience of time, space, and consciousness. That he realizes that all life, while unique and special in it's own way, is all pieces of a puzzle. And he has a dream of something glorious, a dream of what you get when you put the whole puzzle together. Perhaps he is a monument to all of the wonder and magnificence of life in the universe. And maybe he thinks, yeah sure, if you are going to make an omelet, you will break a few eggs.
Maybe, just maybe, if enough DNA is accumulated, he will have enough power to BE God. To remake the universe in whatever image he chooses. Since he loves DNA, and power, and life, he will remake the universe in the best possible way, to glorify and nurture life. Perhaps the original timeline, where he eats Earth and then some other planets, where he finally completes his transformation, is just a step in his process. Once he accumulates the ultimate power, he remakes the whole timeline so that he NEVER ate anyone, so that everyone lives the best and most fulfilling life that they possibly could. Maybe he is an aspiring Entity, with good intentions, who is misunderstood at a somewhat gruesome stage of his journey of evolution and growth.
Who knows. I was just thinking, a creature like that might have an agenda that would be understandable as a logical process, only it would be dealing with concepts and forces that would be near impossible for humans to understand. Perhaps on the level at which he operates, he actually has good intentions. Like trying to explain to your cat or dog why sticking a needle in them will do them good in the long run.
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Well, its surely an interesting theory, but it can't really be proven, or disproven for that matter. This seems like something that belongs in a fanfic more than anything else.
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That's how I see Lavos also... For some reason, I see Lavos as a hero with heart of steel who will unhesitatingly kill a thousand to save a million (or rather, kill many planets capable of supporting life and trillions and trillons of souls to save the universe.)
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The problem is that Lavos doesn't seem to be a single, unique being. He seems more like a part of a particular species which collects DNA and passes it to spawns who migrate and repeat the cycle. All the Lavos Spawns on Deak Peak are potential "big" Lavoses.
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Yeah, the Lavos spawns shoot this theory to shit. Lavos is obviously not concerned with saving the universe and becoming a god. He is just doing what he can to survive the longest by killing others to produce offspring, just like all other life on the planet. He is just at the top of the food chain and we, humans, were pissed off.
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Have we seen any other "adult" Lavoses? The spawns may be something Lavos learned from Earthlings. Lavos could have been "Hey, now that I unraveled these animals to their most basic unit, let's take a look at what these guys can do... Oh, what's that? Reproduction? Nifty! Maybe I should try it a few times before I integrate it into my plan!"
...of course, with such enigmatic creature as Lavos, everything could be right and everything could be wrong. Who knows, maybe Lavos transforms into a carebear when you feed it after midnight.
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But if Lavos was trying to achieve perfection through evolution, why wasn't he capable of doing so sooner. He had to have come from somewhere and was probably already capable of asexual reproduction.
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Maybe nothing else in the universe reproduces? :wink: We shouldn't expect utterly alien life forms to be like us. Chances of another life form even resembling the Earth's life form would be smaller than a computer being built by itself after a big electric storm in a trash heap size of America.
Also, consider this: Lavos can mess with time. Lavos spends 65 million years in Earth and finishes his job. Rewind time. Go to another planet. Spend about trillion years there. He collects the DNA. Rewind time. Repeat. There really isn't a need for another Lavos out there, I think. It'd only trouble Lavos... its offsprings could turn against the progenitor.
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So you're saying that all life forms except Earth are frickin' Immortal and transcend the Second Law of Thermodynamics? You're saying all life except Earth can probably trace their individual life back to the Big Bang?
Also, I don't think Lavos can actually REWIND time.
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Nope. Nothing would be "eternal." Just... they would use a method we can't possibly understand. After all, there's magic in Chronoverse. That alone could just screw entropy over. (Hell, magic can even bring life back to a corpse.)
...grr. I'll shut up now. Feel free to ignore me. I'm a fan of esoteric (read as: thoroughly fscked up) sci-fi.
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You're saying only Earthlings reproduce, and yet there is no way that the original members of any other race but Earth's could survive the entirety of their planet's existence. It's insanely stupid.
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well let's not got that far
anything is possible
imagination and speculation is the best of us
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It is stupid. Lavos' lifespan is supposed to be a testament to his insanely awesome powers. For alien beings to go without reproducing, they'd have to have lived since the dawn of their race, which is implied to be impossible without magical aid or sapping the life energy of an entire planet like Lavos does.
Yes, aliens are supposed to be different, but not THAT different. They still need to reproduce, eat (in whatever way), excrete waste, mate, respirate, and so forth.
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When speaking about what Lavos does with the planet and its DNA, Lucca says the Lavos Spawns will fly to other planets to repeat the "cycle". There would be no "cycle" if the game's Lavos were the first one of its kind to have done what he did.
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Maybe nothing else in the universe reproduces? :wink: We shouldn't expect utterly alien life forms to be like us. Chances of another life form even resembling the Earth's life form would be smaller than a computer being built by itself after a big electric storm in a trash heap size of America.
totally agree ^ ^
we have yet to kno what is really out there
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I can't say I agree with it... Lavos did reproduce. He had children, several for that matter.
All life has basic needs alien or not - Gain energy and reproduce to expand their race. Sure maybe Lavos doesn't need to eat (plants don't need to eat one can say... another can argue that photosynthesis is simply the style of eating for plants, end result is they get energy as does Lavos through sucking a planet dry) , and maybe he reproduces the way a bacteria does... (I doubt it.) but he still has to reproduce.
Where would he come from then? In order for there to be an intelligent being (as the whole dream theory states), it must have evolved (evolution is accepted in the CT world... get used to it, cuz humans evolved from apes... we see that from CT, and its referred to by the dwarves in CC) from underformed life. But in order to reach this stage they would have to go through generations of genetical changes. *Gasp* Generation. Could that mean... REPRODUCTION? Yes.
Lavos does not even begin to resemble earth life (at most something like a tubeworm or leech, or a porcupine if you look at its exterior), but it is living. And living things go through life cycles. AKA They are born, they have children, they die. Unless they are sterile or don't want to have children... then they are born and they die. But you cannot be born out of nowhere.
The only way your theory would work is if the essential molecules of life all suddenly conviently positioned itself to form a beast that may be the size of a mountain. While there is a theoretical quantum probability for that... I doubt it occured.
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Bah, right. Lucca did say "cycle," didn't she?
I guess that destroys everything I was blabbering about then. :?
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Yes, it seems that the Lavos spawn is what kills this theory. If the spawn weren't there, I'd totaly agree with this theory. However, the fact that Lavos reproduced shows that he was a part of a species, not an imortal being who used Earth as a stepping stone to acheive a greater good.
I don't think that we should throw away the theory all together, though, that Lavos wasn't working towards something that we humans could not grasp. Who's to say that Lavos dies or doesn't leave the planet after it is done with it? One theory that I haven't seen on here is that Lavos might have been planning to move on to the next planet using something similar to what they did in the "Lost in Space" movie. Maybe he planned to destroy the planet and use the imploding gravity to sling-shot himself through space again to go to another planet. It is unlikely that he was seeking entityhood because he reproduced, but what if the spawns were not exactly intentional? What if the spawn were simply the by-product of all of the energy that he managed to take from the planet? Or better yet, what if the sole purpose of the spawn was to help him destroy the planet to help propel him to the next planet and the spawn were unable to survive the explosion because their shells hadn't completely matured yet? If this was the case, then your original theory is actually plausible.
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Maybe he planned to destroy the planet and use the imploding gravity to sling-shot himself through space again to go to another planet.
so Lavos has no capability to "fly"
he just originated from deep space and landed here?
i always thought Lavos could leave this planet whenever, yet didn't because of the "significance" of what was going on when he landed
yet he couldn't sense the hatred of certain individuals who wanted to destroy him?
i like this theory so far . . . very interesting
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I think Lavos does have the capability to "fly"... but it is a certain stage of life. Once the Spawn reaches a certain age it gains the ability to launch off of the originating planet once and shoot itself into deep space, and guides itself where there is strong samples of life. Once it lands it destroys the mechanism it took off with.
Lavos never seemed like he wanted to completely obliterate the planet... more like he wanted to make the planet capable for sustaining his offspring and absorbing the energy.
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I seriously dislike any theory that says that Lavos will move on to another planet, since the Lavos Spawn are supposed to be his legacy. It'd be totally stupid to have children if he's gonna persevere.
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true
thanks to ChronoMagus for clarrification
so now the next question . . . are we justified to destroy such a life form who is literally "living" and "surviving" so it's life form can procreate?
no I am NOT getting into all that naturalization stuff with politics and debate
simply build off of this . . . how would you personally react?
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Personally I think we are completely justified. Its like in a battlefield. Yes the enemy soldiers are living beings who probably want to go home and live happy lives with families after this, but they still are going to kill us. The way humans originated was like that vs prehistoric animals. We too want to reproduce and expand our species and we cannot allow an outside force to interfere.
And Aura, that is exactly right... I mean otherwise the Spawn are just competing with the parent for a planet to suck life out of. Why bother reproducing then?
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Nearly all flesh eating species(cept the scavenger?) have to kill their enemy in order to eat it. Kill to survive, that's a rule "normal" flesh-eater must obey. No killing=no food=death(at least in a certain state of live).
Yep, I would kick it's ass to survive and I would see it as justified.
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Nearly all flesh eating species(cept the scavenger?) have to kill their enemy in order to eat it. Kill to survive, that's a rule "normal" flesh-eater must obey. No killing=no food=death(at least in a certain state of live).
Yep, I would kick it's ass to survive and I would see it as justified.
"Flesh-Eater" = Carnivore.
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Nearly all flesh eating species(cept the scavenger?) have to kill their enemy in order to eat it. Kill to survive, that's a rule "normal" flesh-eater must obey. No killing=no food=death(at least in a certain state of live).
Yep, I would kick it's ass to survive and I would see it as justified.
"Flesh-Eater" = Carnivore.
It could be an omnivore... but the point is you fight for the sake of saving your own ass here.
Humanity had no choice... I mean think about it, "Hey look its some giant monster that is starting to shoot explosives... Lets be ethical and not kill it."
Personally I would be more like, "S***. Looks like we are gonna have to fight to save our ass. And if that doesn't work, time for the escape pods!" *escape pods blow up* "... Well looks like we are fighting to save our ass."
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agreed
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Yea, I think we're totally justified in killing one life form to save the entirety of the Universe. Just a bit
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...what's the question again?
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"What is better, Red Hot Chilli Peppers or Guns N' Roses"
Of course, when have humans been ethical? When have they decided not to kill for survival? And thats the answer, Red Hot Chilli Peppers.
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Who are we to judge if it was ethical to kill Lavos? Just because we had to do it for us to survive doesn't make it right. But I think what makes it right is the fact that he killed so many people. It is arguable though that he did it just so that he could survive, forced to kill just to preserve him and his own species just like we were forced to kill him to preserve ourselves and our own species. Are we any different than Lavos then? There isn't a real answer to this because the logic cycles itself if we were justified or not in killing Lavos. From a survival standpoint, we were completely right to do it. From an ethical naturalistic point of view, no, we weren't justified in destroying this member of a species who was only trying to survive.
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From an ethical naturalistic point of view, no, we weren't justified in destroying this member of a species who was only trying to survive.
So we can't kill to survive, but Lavos can?
Ethics don't play into it when extinction is at hand, it's purely survival of the fittest and not much else factors in.
If lavos lives, the planet (and all life within) die.
Course we could just have told Lavos it was an unethical thing to do and surely he'd stop.
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If lavos lives, the planet (and all life within) die.
there was still life . . . 2300AD and so on
but i don't kno wat exactly happened to Lavos after 1999AD and the events in the future, did he simply go away? or continue his harvesting?
Course we could just have told Lavos it was an unethical thing to do and surely he'd stop.
let's jus invite him in for milk and cookies, i am sure he'd agree to hault his apocolypse 8)
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The question is what is ethnic, I mean what does it really mean. I think it's just something that might differs us from "animals", yet humans are even crueler than any enemy can be. But lets not discuss about that(might go into the wrong direction)I still think in this case the anser simply is: kill=survive, not kill=die.
"Flesh-Eater" = Carnivore.
Yeah sry, me = still learning, but tx for helping,
and I know I can't quote proberly(forgot how to insert name, blame'n'shame)
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What is all boils down to is that no single life, no matter how important or superior, is worth destroying 1+ planet(s) over.
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Can we compare this to a question like the one we discussed at school:
Our(german) gouvernement was asked if it would shoot an airplane with terrorists AND civils on board, knowing it will crash into the main political building(forgot my dictionairy, sry). Just theoreticaly thou, is the life we will save more with shooting it down more worth than the life of the persons in the plane(the Civils)?
The answer they gave is simply: No, we wouldn't.
Why? Life(well...only human's...) is invaluable, we can't count in "lifes". Every one is invaluable, even if we know know the civil guy is gonna die anyways, we would not sacrifice him.
If they really wouldn't is another question, but for Lavos: No human=no invaluable life(yeah, I mention it alot even now when everybody got my point).
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ur at a set of train tracks and ur next to a switch
the train carrying no1 yet is moving in the direction of 5 others
u can switch the tracks and hav the train take a different route, but there's 1 person on those tracks
wat do u do
CyberSarkany, ur exactly right
every1 has a price . . .
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You're trying to apply morality beyond it's scope. It is equally moral for Lavos to kill humans for survival as it for humans to kill Lavos for survival. It's the natural order; it's outside of the scope of morality.
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1 life < Hundreds of Billions of lives.
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I seriously dislike any theory that says that Lavos will move on to another planet, since the Lavos Spawn are supposed to be his legacy. It'd be totally stupid to have children if he's gonna persevere.
Well, working with that idea, it could just be a little twist on the whole idea of the DNA perfection dream of Lavos.
Why do people have children? Baseline, it's written into us. Natural instinct to continue on our species. But that's just animal, we're (not too be too egotistical about our species n' all) above that. Humans reproduce for a deeper reason then to just preserve humanity, we do it for immortality. We truly and deeply wish to continue on our names and memories, our experiences and wisdom.
In a similar way Lavos is immortal by continuing to reproduce, passing on the DNA collected from a planet to his offspring so they can in turn find other planets, collect their DNA, and grow ever closer to biological perfection. That falls apart though with the lack of exchange in the species. Lavos don't mate, they just sap energy then reproduce... outa' somewhere (Don't get into -that-). So I think only one Lavos makes it into space (the others die off, possibly some battle of dominance, I'm not sure), a single creature overflowing with the DNA information and advantages of all his kind before him and infects a new world.
This does seem to fit pretty well with most of the Lavos theories thus far, but it's more in support of the idea that Lavos, as a species, has this dream of perfection (Like teh BORG :3 I'll shut up) by collecting the DNA of species throughout the endless expanse that is the universe. It's just that dream is passed down through the generations of lil' Lavoses... maybe?
Note: Yeah you people have jumped into an ethical question of 1 life versus a billion. Sorry. My two cents? It's wrong just to start. Why not two? Whats two lives next to a billion? How about four? Still small. Ten? Twenty? A hundred? A thousand? A million? Still small next to a billion lives. It's far too easy to play god.
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well said Aura
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Can we compare this to a question like the one we discussed at school:
Our(german) gouvernement was asked if it would shoot an airplane with terrorists AND civils on board, knowing it will crash into the main political building(forgot my dictionairy, sry). Just theoreticaly thou, is the life we will save more with shooting it down more worth than the life of the persons in the plane(the Civils)?
The answer they gave is simply: No, we wouldn't.
Why? Life(well...only human's...) is invaluable, we can't count in "lifes". Every one is invaluable, even if we know know the civil guy is gonna die anyways, we would not sacrifice him.
If they really wouldn't is another question, but for Lavos: No human=no invaluable life(yeah, I mention it alot even now when everybody got my point).
Umm...lemme get this straight. Instead of shooting down and killing, what, pretend, PRETEND, 500 people, they will instead let it crash into a building and kill...lets just say, PRETEND DAMNIT, 2000 people? Or are my eyes just blinded by the blood dripping from my ceiling? I have got to get that air conditioner fixed!
Yes, life is invaluable, depending on what morals you follow. Some Nihilists put life as no value. Its just part of the cycle, birth-life-death. But we have to take this from the CT values. Lavos we have learnt, has none of our values. He just kills to survive. It's INSTINCT for him. Does this destroy his sentiency? Who knows. But 3 of the people in your party are from 1000AD. A backwards society, which we can possibly base on Elizabethan times. One is from 65 gazillion years ago. Whats her ethics? Then we have 600, and even more backwards then 1000 civilisation. Then we have Magus, who I can presume just wants revenge, therefore doesn't care about Lavos. Then we have a robot. Nuff said. But Crono, Lucca, Marle and Ayla, not to mention a certain frog, are all goody goodies, wanting justice and all. They, for all we know, don't even know what this, this Lavos thingy is. To them its just a parasite. Killing it won't matter; its to save the worl innit?
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all they care about is just that, saving the world
did they ever consider the repercussions of what might've happened if Lavos was stopped?
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No, like I said, they were clouded by the blood comin- wait, I mean they were clouded by the short term effects. Obviously, Lavos=dead=saved! They didn't think about things like Fate, A New World, or anything. It just wasn't in their capacity to think about it.
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@Burning Zeppelin(2nd last post)
Yeah, that's what was announced. I don't wanna start a discussion whether you belive the politicians or not, so I won't.
To much questions comming up which r not topic related...*deletes*
What does actually "count" as Lavos? The Spikey shell thing, the right bit(core), or all together?
Why do the baby lavos seem to have no core? Or was it just left out because it's to small to show?
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Press the quote button dude.
Why does it really matter what part of Lavos is what? It's just another part of him, like we have different parts. But I would say the core. And about Mini Lavos, I would say it was just to small to show. That or it has more significant meaning...
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Lavos Spawn hadn't begun genetic harvesting yet... (What is there to harvest? Daddy or Mommy Lavos already harvested humans to the max extent and the remaining ones are defintely not dominant. Whats left... mutants and rats? Oh and I forgot the amazing lifeform called acid..) thus there simply was no fully developed core. It was probably a nutrient sack or some other life organ, and personally I think it was a good thing the game developers did a good thing by sparing us from beating up a nutrient sack. (What would its attacks be... Vitamin B rains from the heavens?)
Now to ethics. Obviously the mastermind behind Lavos is this fully developed nutrient sack that has absorbed life for 65 MY and transformed into a hominoid being. The shell is his tool of mass destruction, the bio-lavos (2nd part) is his internal defence system. You could equate what Lavos did to that of a murder. From our (humanity's and also the game's) perspective Lavos "broke into" the planet, and mass murdered all life. Not just humans mind you... all life. Yes there are the destitute humans, the rats, the sewer monsters, the mutants, and living acid, but that is nothing compared to the lush world of 1999 AD (Well the 1999 we get to see looks pretty decent). The remaining Lavos Spawn would have probably killed them off as well. So basically all we are doing is defending ourselves (and in effect the entire planet) from this genocide.
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Considering that Lavos was manipulating humanity of millions upon millions of years in evolution before finally killing us like the cattle it raised us as, I think we were perfectly justified in killing him.
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From Lavos's perspective, it was simply harvesting its crops, and humans were as significant as the bacterial culture in yogurt.
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Perhaps, but our perspective experienced it differently.
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Chrono Trigger is about the survival of the fittest, not the triumph of good over evil.
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I never said it was justified from a standpoint of morality, I simply said it was justified.
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Humans are conscious beings, they're not comparable to bacterial culture in yogurts.
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And even if we were comparable to Yogurt, let's not forget Schala's spiel at the end of CC about how all life, from big to small, is precious and invaluable :3
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If Chrono Trigger is about the survival of the fittest, then Lavos should have won. Crono and co can go straight to hell. They're not fit =.=
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u kno . . . why couldn't Lavos simply shoot Crono and Co. into time gates to prevent them from harming him?
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If Chrono Trigger is about the survival of the fittest, then Lavos should have won. Crono and co can go straight to hell. They're not fit =.=
Do you actually know what fitness means in a biological sense? Ayla, Crono, and Marle we know for a fact to be fit. Lavos is debatably fit. I'm not sure how fitness applies to asexual organisms.
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Crono seems to be pretty fit for his age.
Lucca, maybe. Although her intelligence should more than make up for that.
Marle, she seems to be about average in fitness. Standard for typical fantasy princess.
Frog, I'd bet. Although we've yet to see him use the power of an amphibians anatomy.
Robo, it depends on how powerful his technology is and how well he's maintained. Otherwise, moot point.
Ayla...no question about it.
Magus, not sure, although what he (potentially) lacks in muscles he definitely makes up for in magic. Or at least he did as a boss.
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Lol, If you've ever looked at Magus, he's pretty beefy, like Crono nad Ayla Oo.
Anyway, survival of the fittest isn't just about power, but also intellegence.
And surely, you can't say Lavos is not fit when he has the power of the whole planet, and a bunch of kids finished him off, whom one was deleted and one was abducted and killed.
In proper perspective, Lavos is the one who should have won in the end if we had it all accounted in "survival of the fittest". The game makers wanted Crono and co to win, so they did. End of story.
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It doesn't matter how powerful Lavos was; the time travellers were able to defeat it. The perfect analogy is an animal dying of a microbial infection.
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Crono and co. were able to defeat Lavos with their wit, intelligence, strength, magic, resources, and teamwork. They earned their championship belt in the "Survival of the Fittest" Tournament of Life.
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Exactly... it was Lavos' fault for misanalyzing the situation and not paying attention the fact that a couple of time travelling teenagers were correcting history... its kind of hard to miss you know. What happened to Lavos is like a person too lazy to get diagnosed for a disease. He ignores until it finally becomes too strong to stop and then dies.
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Exactly... it was Lavos' fault for misanalyzing the situation and not paying attention the fact that a couple of time travelling teenagers were correcting history... its kind of hard to miss you know. What happened to Lavos is like a person too lazy to get diagnosed for a disease. He ignores until it finally becomes too strong to stop and then dies.
How the hell do we know. That could in itself be a plothole. Lavos realises that he has to destroy 1999AD and Zeal, and he traverses all of time and space, and yet he didn't see it coming. And it only realises it's death.. after it dies.. WTF.
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i guess that's kinda what i meant to say
but with all this stated, couldn't Lavos have created additional time gates and scatter Crono and Co in which Lavos was basically protecting itself from potential harm
What happened to Lavos is like a person too lazy to get diagnosed for a disease.
was he simply in lazy mode then
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Or maybe its just that Lavos doesnt expect human beings that came 999 years before him, or more, to come attack him. That and he did almost kill everyone, so its kinda weird to see some people there
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How about this,
Lavos is in his own little world. If you accept him being in a pocket dimension this is taken litterally. He has little concern for the actions of his "food" he doesn't watch the pen so to speak. Then one day Lavos is just sucking power from the earth which is all he does and all of a sudden he starts to feel something draining his energy. It nagged him before, but now it was downright obvious and perhaps reached a point where they sucked out more energy than he took in. So he got pissed and made a huge ass tidal wave. This is not a concentrated attack remember, this reshaped the earth entirely, it affected the whole thing. It just so happened that Zeal was taken down with it. Now the Mammon Machine isn't supporting all the Zealians and Queen Zeal likely uses a limited portion of it's power for herself.
Then Lavos again continues to not watch the pen. He gets what he wants and in 1999 AD ruins the planet and makes it ready for his children to grow in.
The simple fact is that Lavos simply did not care what we did, do you REALLY think that the cows are going to rise up and destory mankind? No, but then again are we LOOKING for it? You can't prove they aren't. Similar idea.
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It depends. Do you believe that Lavos is working on instict (like cows) or reason (like humans, and ubercool apes in space)?
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It depends. Do you believe that Lavos is working on instict (like cows) or reason (like humans, and ubercool apes in space)?
I used to believe he had some kind of brain going on, but how he acts, he really doesn't seem to do any sort of pre-planning. At best he reacts to stimuli, but he never seems to anticipate that stimuli.
Where as if he were thinking he'd have thought, hey these Zealians are draining power from and they are CLEARLY building a huge ass undersea base for something and it happens to be close to me, that and since I'm pretty powerful, apparently, I'm catching some intense crazy bitch vibes from that Queen Zeal lady.
He only acts AFTER the fact, never before. Prevention is a good indicator that someone is thinking ahead of the fact.
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Does a human being react consciously to the actions of bacteria within his body?
Lavos's consciousness is on an entirely different level than humans, and their actions are beneath its notice. It is only when humans sufficiently harm Lavos, such as by activating the Ocean Palace, that it perceives the threat and reacts accordingly.
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I've always thought of Lavos as a virus. Comes, infects, breeds, dies.
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I've always thought of Lavos as a virus. Comes, infects, breeds, dies.
What exactly does it infect? The Planet? Not at all. Lavos is clearly a parasite, not a virus. If Lavos were akin to a virus, it would have saturated the planet with Lavos spawns and detonated the planet, launching them out in to the cosmos.
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I've always thought of Lavos as a virus. Comes, infects, breeds, dies.
What exactly does it infect? The Planet? Not at all. Lavos is clearly a parasite, not a virus. If Lavos were akin to a virus, it would have saturated the planet with Lavos spawns and detonated the planet, launching them out in to the cosmos.
He's a good parasite though. Without him, there would be no humans. Schala made this very clear with the whole spermatoza thing. Without him, Humans would not be at their stage or anything, they wouldn't be special since they would not be a thing torn by love and hate and other things. The savior is also the thing that would ruin the planet. But then again, the planet was closer to the dragonians anyway.
Also, the thing that bothers me is this.
The Black Omen was not damaged in the Destruction Rains in 1999AD. That may mean it's not just there. Also, the fact that in 2300AD, Queen Zeal sees the Earth all ruined and doens't really care. So, what does she want to be the Queen of if the planet is destroyed, and Lavos will die? This kind of shows that she is more in tune with him, and maybe Lavos will go away, and she will with him and be eternal with him.
Also, I don't think Lavos was like "OMG, this Zeal Queen bitch is sucking my energy". It may have been that the flame was being drained to much and the dreamstone had a bad reaction with it. Remember, the flame has more power than that and if it had evolved humans, and raised their society for all this time, then obviously energy was used in the process, and not a little amount. As I said, the reaction with the Dreamstone and Schala's fainting could have done something to the flame to activate Lavos' thing. Heck, even the gate produced could have been a safety measure for the arbiter to live.
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It may have been that the flame was being drained to much and the dreamstone had a bad reaction with it.
r u referring to the frozen flame here?
i thought us humans didn't come into contact with it (obviously after Lavos crashing into planet) later on . . .
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I've always thought of Lavos as a virus. Comes, infects, breeds, dies.
Sort of along the vein of Jenova, then?
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It may have been that the flame was being drained to much and the dreamstone had a bad reaction with it.
r u referring to the frozen flame here?
i thought us humans didn't come into contact with it (obviously after Lavos crashing into planet) later on . . .
The Frozen Flame was found in 3,000,000BC (somewhere around that time), and triggered the evolution of the human's brain's x3. Then the Flame was kept inside the Mammon Machine as a link to draw energy from Lavos.
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Are we sure that the Flame was used in the Mammon Machine? I never thought so.
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that's impossible, i thought the only material was dreamstone
evidence: the timeline
isn't the Flame a piece of Lavos's shell?
Zeal must've then come into contact with it to use it in with the mammon machine, IF wat Zaperking is saying is true here
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A predominant theory about the FF is that it originates from the Shell of Lavos.
And about why Lavos does not realize a couple of loser teens rising up to beat the shit out of him. We humans are like farm animals to him.
Who has read the book Animal Farm? (waits for at least someone to raise hand, random guy way in the back does) Well for those of you who didn't the book starts with a normal farm with your average animals. But then one day the pigs of the farm get a revolutionary idea... Dispose of our human masters. The animals rally up under the idea of the pigs who are the most intelligent animals and then toss out the humans. Thats the basics of the beginning. The rest of the story isnt really significant for my point.
Now some person might say, "Wait ChronoMagus! That makes no sense! Does the human masters not realize what the animals are doing?"
I would scowl at that person and say, "Well you wouldn't make a good farmer. What kind of farmer thinks his stupid animals will rebel? Most people would view that guy as a paranoid freak and why would he even have the animals in the first place? "
Lavos is the smart farmer and humanity is his dumb livestock. One day however three pigs called Crono Marle and Lucca interfere in the flow of time and learn of the future. They gather more animals by the names of Glenn, Magus, Robo and Ayla to join their cause. Finally after Farmer Lavos long season of raising his crop he comes to reap his harvest. Yet there are these seven dumb animals, who disobey their master, and refuse to be slaughtered for yummy meat. (This is coming from a guy who can't eat pork) This makes Farmer Lavos very mad, but he can do nothing about it because the dumb and incomptent animals have become strong and defeat them. And thus is the first part of Animal Farm: CT Edition.
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Except that it only applies to part of the book. Afterwards the plot of the book shifts focus to depict how the animal government is slowly corrupted until it is no better--and perhaps worse--than the rule which predated it.
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I've always thought of Lavos as a virus. Comes, infects, breeds, dies.
What exactly does it infect? The Planet? Not at all. Lavos is clearly a parasite, not a virus. If Lavos were akin to a virus, it would have saturated the planet with Lavos spawns and detonated the planet, launching them out in to the cosmos.
He's a good parasite though. Without him, there would be no humans. Schala made this very clear with the whole spermatoza thing. Without him, Humans would not be at their stage or anything, they wouldn't be special since they would not be a thing torn by love and hate and other things. The savior is also the thing that would ruin the planet. But then again, the planet was closer to the dragonians anyway.
How does that make him good? What makes the humans more intrinsically good than the reptites? Everything special about the humans is a result of Lavos, so they were less than the reptites in the absence of Lavos.
Think about it from the planet's perspective. Not only is this giant parasite slowly killing the planet, it murders the planet's favorite race upon arrival, and fosters a bunch of silly apes that wind up causing havoc throughout their history. In fact, the only thing of benefit to the planet that the humans did was take out Lavos, without whom, they wouldn't have rose to dominance in the first place.
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A predominant theory about the FF is that it originates from the Shell of Lavos.
And about why Lavos does not realize a couple of loser teens rising up to beat the shit out of him. We humans are like farm animals to him.
Who has read the book Animal Farm? (waits for at least someone to raise hand, random guy way in the back does) Well for those of you who didn't the book starts with a normal farm with your average animals. But then one day the pigs of the farm get a revolutionary idea... Dispose of our human masters. The animals rally up under the idea of the pigs who are the most intelligent animals and then toss out the humans. Thats the basics of the beginning. The rest of the story isnt really significant for my point.
Now some person might say, "Wait ChronoMagus! That makes no sense! Does the human masters not realize what the animals are doing?"
I would scowl at that person and say, "Well you wouldn't make a good farmer. What kind of farmer thinks his stupid animals will rebel? Most people would view that guy as a paranoid freak and why would he even have the animals in the first place? "
Lavos is the smart farmer and humanity is his dumb livestock. One day however three pigs called Crono Marle and Lucca interfere in the flow of time and learn of the future. They gather more animals by the names of Glenn, Magus, Robo and Ayla to join their cause. Finally after Farmer Lavos long season of raising his crop he comes to reap his harvest. Yet there are these seven dumb animals, who disobey their master, and refuse to be slaughtered for yummy meat. (This is coming from a guy who can't eat pork) This makes Farmer Lavos very mad, but he can do nothing about it because the dumb and incomptent animals have become strong and defeat them. And thus is the first part of Animal Farm: CT Edition.
Wow. CT is TOTALLY a satire on Stalin, Marx, Lenin and Communism in whole!
And Lavos isn't a tyrannical master, who wants shit from his animals.
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A predominant theory about the FF is that it originates from the Shell of Lavos.
And about why Lavos does not realize a couple of loser teens rising up to beat the shit out of him. We humans are like farm animals to him.
Who has read the book Animal Farm? (waits for at least someone to raise hand, random guy way in the back does) Well for those of you who didn't the book starts with a normal farm with your average animals. But then one day the pigs of the farm get a revolutionary idea... Dispose of our human masters. The animals rally up under the idea of the pigs who are the most intelligent animals and then toss out the humans. Thats the basics of the beginning. The rest of the story isnt really significant for my point.
Now some person might say, "Wait ChronoMagus! That makes no sense! Does the human masters not realize what the animals are doing?"
I would scowl at that person and say, "Well you wouldn't make a good farmer. What kind of farmer thinks his stupid animals will rebel? Most people would view that guy as a paranoid freak and why would he even have the animals in the first place? "
Lavos is the smart farmer and humanity is his dumb livestock. One day however three pigs called Crono Marle and Lucca interfere in the flow of time and learn of the future. They gather more animals by the names of Glenn, Magus, Robo and Ayla to join their cause. Finally after Farmer Lavos long season of raising his crop he comes to reap his harvest. Yet there are these seven dumb animals, who disobey their master, and refuse to be slaughtered for yummy meat. (This is coming from a guy who can't eat pork) This makes Farmer Lavos very mad, but he can do nothing about it because the dumb and incomptent animals have become strong and defeat them. And thus is the first part of Animal Farm: CT Edition.
Wow. CT is TOTALLY a satire on Stalin, Marx, Lenin and Communism in whole!
And Lavos isn't a tyrannical master, who wants shit from his animals.
I said the rest of the book was irrelevant for my point... Heck maybe Chrono Break will be. (And when I say that, it better not be...) The point is Lavos did not realize a couple of comptent teens would beat the shit out of him.
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it could be that Lavos thought nothing of Crono and Co to be that much of a threat
sometimes we never feel the prick of a masquito land on us and suck our blood
bad metaphor . . . :?
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Well, not really. Since the mosquito might carry West Nile or Malaria. I know that people [used] to never give mosquitoes a second thought except for the itching.
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How does that make him good? What makes the humans more intrinsically good than the reptites? Everything special about the humans is a result of Lavos, so they were less than the reptites in the absence of Lavos.
Think about it from the planet's perspective. Not only is this giant parasite slowly killing the planet, it murders the planet's favorite race upon arrival, and fosters a bunch of silly apes that wind up causing havoc throughout their history. In fact, the only thing of benefit to the planet that the humans did was take out Lavos, without whom, they wouldn't have rose to dominance in the first place.
Other than the Dragonians, who said the Reptites were the favoured species of the planet? Humans were corrupted by Lavos, but then again, so were all life forms. Humans became extremely successful due to their intelligence and aggressive nature. The Demi-Humans were justifiably angry at the humans as a result of their oppression, but who are they to say what the Entity prefers? Change and conflict are part of nature. Human activity upset the balance of the planet's ecosystems, but they did not ruin the planet like Lavos, and the future seems pretty bright to me.
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Considering that the humans would have evolved at some point, and that Ayla defeated Azala before Lavos fell, I'd find it likely that humans would have overtaken the Reptites at some point. Perhaps Dinopolis isn't a sign that it's a Reptite only dimension, perhaps the two races live in some form of peace in the "Reptite" dimension.
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Considering that the humans would have evolved at some point, and that Ayla defeated Azala before Lavos fell, I'd find it likely that humans would have overtaken the Reptites at some point. Perhaps Dinopolis isn't a sign that it's a Reptite only dimension, perhaps the two races live in some form of peace in the "Reptite" dimension.
I dunno, in CT it seemed like the only thing going for the Humans was either 1. Ayla the baddest girl of them all. or 2. Hiding in the woods. Which that villiage was later burned.
It has this feeling that the Humans and Reptites were locked in a struggle that could only result in the destruction of one or the other. There were undertones that they simply could not coexist at all. Also on top of all this it felt like the humans had been losing this battle and perhaps were on their last legs.
This is all conjecture and opinion of mine though so take that as you will.
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I dunno, in CT it seemed like the only thing going for the Humans was either 1. Ayla the baddest girl of them all. or 2. Hiding in the woods. Which that villiage was later burned.
I honestly doubt that Ayla was the only one of her caliber that would ever exist. Lavos or not, she stills fatally wounds Azala. Without their leader, the Reptites would be slightly demoralized, and the humans would perhaps be energized by that struggle.
It has this feeling that the Humans and Reptites were locked in a struggle that could only result in the destruction of one or the other. There were undertones that they simply could not coexist at all. Also on top of all this it felt like the humans had been losing this battle and perhaps were on their last legs.
Perhaps, inspired by Ayla, the humans gained a fighting zeal whereupon they fought evenly with the demoralized Reptites. Perhaps this led to an even field where they called a truce.
Or perhaps Azala was simply fanatical, and without him peace naturally began to foster itself.
Perhaps there is no peace, and war continues in the Reptite dimension for eons.
Or perhaps the Reptites naturally win.
This is all conjecture and opinion of mine though so take that as you will.
Right, like mine isn't? Of course it's all speculation! However, I'd like to think that the pattern we see is that, devoid of Lavos, peace would be eventually prevalent.
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May I add that there would not have been Crono and co to help Ayla out =.= Also, the fact that people like Kino were said to have been time travelling to get to where they got, since the future of the Reptite Dimension (or a world where Lavos never lands) would not have humans, Kino would be missing and Ayla may have lead a different path, and fought and lost.
Remember, The Reptites are already thousands, maybe even millions of years advanced than the "apes", who seem to have recently emerged from the trees.
In the Reptite Dimension, humans do not exist as they were wiped out, and the Reptites were able to get closer to the planet, and the planet hence let them harness it's power, putting it into the Dragon God.
Now, The planet in CC is a selfish little skanky one. It uses it's own beings, no matter who dies or doesn't to save itself. Look at the little bitch, taking out Dinopolis (and it's obvious that it did it with conscious) from it's own dimension and their own Dragon God (the power of the planet) and allowing them to get slaughtered by FATE, the protector of humanity, while at the same time the planet hates them. But yet again, this is also after the humans did a favour for it. So the planet is very contradictory.
Now, as for the Frozen Flame. The Frozen Flame is a part of Lavos that came off during impact with the Earth.
The Flame WAS inside the Mammon Machine, RD makes this very clear and RD had the same past as CT. Also, Belthasar stated it's existance in one of his secret rooms. He called it the "red shard". Dreamstone is not a shard of anything as it is a reoccuring mineral, found long long ago. The Frozen Flame is a shard tho. Belthasar also said that with this, love and hate were born. CC expands with this and explains it all. Upon contact with the flame, the humans were mutated and evolved unnaturally. Chronopolis and Terra Tower/Fort Dragonia state this very clearly, especially with the fact that humans are torn between love and hate.
And as for the Mammon Machine. It is made out of dreamstone, but inside it, what it sucks energy from is the Flame, and Schala communes with it. Placing the flame closer to Lavos would probably increase the link and hence more energy would be drained. Basically, the Mammon Machine just channals that destructive energy out and spreads it around, just like how the FF is contained in that huge ass machinery in Chronopolis.
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Remember, The Reptites are already thousands, maybe even millions of years advanced than the "apes", who seem to have recently emerged from the trees.
Millions is a bit pushing it.
Now, The planet in CC is a selfish little skanky one. It uses it's own beings, no matter who dies or doesn't to save itself. Look at the little bitch, taking out Dinopolis (and it's obvious that it did it with conscious) from it's own dimension and their own Dragon God (the power of the planet) and allowing them to get slaughtered by FATE, the protector of humanity, while at the same time the planet hates them. But yet again, this is also after the humans did a favour for it. So the planet is very contradictory.
Well, if the planet dies, so does all the beings she nurtures. So to sacrifice a few to save the whole, so be it. It's not like they're not gonna die in a blink of an eye anyway through her point of view. Plus, it's been stated that Dinopolis were needed to keep some sort of vague balance thanks to Newton's law. It might've been involuntary. And I don't think she "allowed" Dinopolis to lose. I don't think she's as powerful as you're making her out to be. Plus she most likely loves all things she bore.
The Flame WAS inside the Mammon Machine, RD makes this very clear and RD had the same past as CT. Also, Belthasar stated it's existance in one of his secret rooms. He called it the "red shard". Dreamstone is not a shard of anything as it is a reoccuring mineral, found long long ago. The Frozen Flame is a shard tho. Belthasar also said that with this, love and hate were born. CC expands with this and explains it all. Upon contact with the flame, the humans were mutated and evolved unnaturally. Chronopolis and Terra Tower/Fort Dragonia state this very clearly, especially with the fact that humans are torn between love and hate.
RD contradicts CT AND CC on several points, and yet you're using it as your damn Compendium bible. Also, Dreamstone can be a "shard" if Zeal picked it into pieces for easier transport. For all we know, Dreamstone is one big massive chunk underneath that needed to be broken down. There's also a chance that the "Red Rock" Belthasar speaks of is simply a metaphor, since a Red Rock in most Eastern Religion (Taoism, Shinto, Confuscianism) Is used as an allegory of inherent greed in mankind, which ultimately propagates love and hate.
And as for the Mammon Machine. It is made out of dreamstone, but inside it, what it sucks energy from is the Flame, and Schala communes with it. Placing the flame closer to Lavos would probably increase the link and hence more energy would be drained. Basically, the Mammon Machine just channals that destructive energy out and spreads it around, just like how the FF is contained in that huge ass machinery in Chronopolis.
Dreamstone's main, if only, purpose in the story is to sap Lavos' energy. This would be highly redundant if the Frozen Flame was in the Mammon Machine.
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Millions is a bit pushing it.
In evolutionary terms, even millions isn't much. Look at Ayla and crew, their brains, from what Chronopolis said, didn't advance till they met up with the flame, probably around 3,000,000 BC.
Well, if the planet dies, so does all the beings she nurtures. So to sacrifice a few to save the whole, so be it. It's not like they're not gonna die in a blink of an eye anyway through her point of view. Plus, it's been stated that Dinopolis were needed to keep some sort of vague balance thanks to Newton's law. It might've been involuntary. And I don't think she "allowed" Dinopolis to lose. I don't think she's as powerful as you're making her out to be. Plus she most likely loves all things she bore.
Well, because the whole game even exists, it kind of means that she hasn't died, even though if one were to travel, lets say into 10,000 AD, she should be and since she transends time, she should be dead always, but she's not so maybe that theory that the world would heal itself may have some credibility.
RD contradicts CT AND CC on several points, and yet you're using it as your damn Compendium bible. Also, Dreamstone can be a "shard" if Zeal picked it into pieces for easier transport. For all we know, Dreamstone is one big massive chunk underneath that needed to be broken down. There's also a chance that the "Red Rock" Belthasar speaks of is simply a metaphor, since a Red Rock in most Eastern Religion (Taoism, Shinto, Confuscianism) Is used as an allegory of inherent greed in mankind, which ultimately propagates love and hate.
Give me something that contradicts CT and CC.
The Frozen Flame is the only logical thing. Even Lynx called it the "Crimson Shard". I don't see how dreamstone can evolve man kind, mutating them in a way and causing them to be torn between love and hate. Game evidence shows that the Flame did this.
And yet again, that metaphor works in perfectly with the Frozen Flame. If Masato Kato was still working on the idea, and called it the red shard as a prototype name, it doesn't mean that it's not the same thing, it's just an earlier name. The Frozen Flame is an allegory of the inherent greed of mankind. All the rumours about it, being able to make a person incredibly rich, giving them the power to control countries and such.
Also, even though RD stems off differently, RD shows that the Flame was inside it, and it logically makes sence. What, do you think that the Mammon Machine in RD is just like a little glass tube with the Flame there? Ofcourse not. Dreamstone drains energy, and the Frozen Flame channels Lavos energy. The Dreamstone can't just randomly obtain energy without a power source. Also, that little eye looking thing on the Mammon Machine looks like the shape the flame takes on when it opens up.
And about Belthasar, him writing about the existance of the flame, and if he and Melchior and Gaspar had to build The Mammon Machine, Belthasar would have known it. I personally think that he wrote it prior to building it. And the fact that he knows about it kind of shows how he found it in the future, and used it to his advantage.
Dreamstone's main, if only, purpose in the story is to sap Lavos' energy. This would be highly redundant if the Frozen Flame was in the Mammon Machine.
As I said earlier, it's not like Dreamstone can drain energy out of nowhere. The Flame has and channals the power of Lavos. Schala is there to activate the Machine because she is the arbiter, and by communing with it, the flame begins to awaken (probably). Probably before that, The Machine didn't drain as much since it wasn't required, and the flame was alright.
But when it got to close to Lavos, and Zeal demanded that they set the Machine's draining power on the Flame to high, it caused the flame to awaken, overload the machine and hence Lavos awoke. Maybe Lavos awoke since the flame was in danger, and if the flame is like Lavos' back up plan, that may be why he attacked and the machine was in a pocket dimension.
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I still agree with AT on this issue. I've never seen enough undying reason to accept the Frozen Flame is in the Mammon Machine, and that Schala is the "Arbiter" and whatnot. There's nothing against the fact that both those facts are incorrect. The Dreamstone was drawing power from Lavos, whether it was the FF or not. I agree with Aura, having the FF in there is repetitive. I don't think anyone could've touched it without going mad or being destroyed or whatever, anyway.
And I never believed that sillyness of Schala being Arbiter. Who chose her to be Arbiter? Maybe if the FF WAS in the MM, but...there's no reason to say it truly is.
I've always felt this way, even after playing through it completely: RD is definetely nothing to use as reference for anything else in the series except for itself, and the fact that there are different possible realities and dimensions, which we already know from the other two games.
What does RD have wrong that contradicts the other two? Uh...everything about it.
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Seriously. Even if RD doesn't contradict something, it still doesn't make it canon. Since RD doesn't exist in official continuity.
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Ermm.. The last to posts were... weird.
As Mystik3eb said, people would go mad by touching it etc.. But..
Did you also forget that the FF would be encased inside the dreamstone, and also that Schala IS THE ONLY PERSON WHO CAN ACTIVATE THE MAMMON MACHINE, hint hint as to why. Even Queen Zeal could not operate it.
And as I say it again. CC and CT itself showed that the Flame was there by themselves. CT had Belthasar first state an object that advanced the humans. RD furthured this with the fact that the Mammon Machine had the FF inside. Once Schala had activated the Machine, and everything happened as it did in the original timeline, Schala felt horrible about what she had done by activating it and the Flame reincarnated her kinda and Lucca found her. Heck, this may be the original timeline where Lucca and co didn't time travel. Anyway, since RD's past is the same as CT's, it's not a stretch.
CC then adds onto this. CC explains the unnatural evolution that the humans had, and that humans will always be torn between love and hate thanks to it. The Crimson shard, the red shard that grants dreams and gives unlimited wealth to the possesser... That is the Frozen Flame. Not to mention that Luccia adds onto this and says that the Frozen Flame must have been what destroyed a civilization. Why? Because it was responsible for awakening Lavos since Schala awakened it. Through it, the whole fall of Zeal happened.
Also, a thing made of Dreamstone itself can't just absorbed Lavos' energy. It seems pretty weird that people, even though RD furthur explained this, would think that Dreamstone can randomly just absorb energy from a being that is probably about 6km under their planet, without having any sort of connection with it. RD gives the explanation, and it's an official game. The whole concept of Zeal is there, the prototype of CC is there, the Frozen Flame is there, and was then added into CC. Masato may not have known at the time what the "red shard" was going to be, but he obviously worked off it and expanded it, and had it become the Frozen Flame, just as Lucca didn't have a surname till CC came along.
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ok . . .
Basically Dreamstone back a long long time ago was similar to other rock materials, mainly from wat Ayla said
where do u get @ where the FF was incased in Dreamstone?? please state where u obtained this information . . .
The Frozen Flame was NEVER mentioned in CT, u can say watever u wish about Belthasar stated something which enhanced human evolution, u can speculate all u want, but the REAL truth was never mentioned . . yet
RD is it's own seperate dimension, thus everything in it DOESN'T matter
there may be connections from pervious and present, but all in all, it never happened in the true Chronoverse . . . that be like saying another ME somewhere decided to drop out of high school and become a theif to make a living
in CC, u kno very well wat happened with Schala and this shard of Lavos which IS the FF, she was fused with Lavos after the Zeal incident . . . thee Schala created her clone with her pendant, obviously for protection, where Lucca met up, started the whole orphange business and what not
now, the evidence is in the storyline and plot, Schala, Belthasar and Project Kid and some other factors played the role in a successful clone of Schala . . . Kid
note again that everything in RD is irrelavent, but perhaps it could be the basis of another story to come in the future :wink:
anything is possible, but again, all evidence in RD is useless, there is only speculation in which might be the truth in the real world
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That's right. RD was replaced by CC. Not added onto. Replaced.
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As for the whole energy issue, the Masamune seems to absorb Lavos energy quite well. Along with several other types of energy. But does that mean the Frozen Flame is in it? WTFOMGBBQ!
Seriously, the Mammon Machine can probably suck Lavos' energy on the pure principle of dreams. It takes the dreams of the Zealians for prosperity and makes it come true by sapping energy from the best source. And if it was the Frozen Flame that was responsible, Lavos probably could've just turned off the Mammon Machine before it got out of hand. Not to mention that RD says Crono was never ressurected, and we know he is from a canon viewpoint.
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Seriously, the Mammon Machine can probably suck Lavos' energy on the pure principle of dreams. It takes the dreams of the Zealians for prosperity and makes it come true by sapping energy from the best source. And if it was the Frozen Flame that was responsible, Lavos probably could've just turned off the Mammon Machine before it got out of hand. Not to mention that RD says Crono was never ressurected, and we know he is from a canon viewpoint.
I never said that the Frozen Flame drained Lavos' energy. Also, Lavos can't just turn it off since the Flame is a seperate part of him, and instead Schala is the one who awakens it. It's the Arbiter => Flame =>Lavos
Also, it was never stated that Crono was never ressurected in RD. Lucca said that she wanted the flame to be buried with a close friend whom died. Yet, you're making it a true fact, when my fact here is that the Flame was in the mammon machine and stated to be so, and not inclined to have been.
People need to put two and two together. If RD has the same Zeal, and the same heros, except that if Crono died, then the Flame is there in CC's Zeal.
And for the record, RD is in the Chrono Universe, it is simply an alternate dimension off the CT one, not outside it.
The Frozen Flame was NEVER mentioned in CT, u can say watever u wish about Belthasar stated something which enhanced human evolution, u can speculate all u want, but the REAL truth was never mentioned
Just because something isn't named, but is said, doesn't mean that it does not have a name. Belthasar had his say, then CC said exactally the same thing, but gave that red shard a name, Lynx called it the same thing. If you can't put two and two together, thats sad.
You have played CC, have you not?
where do u get @ where the FF was incased in Dreamstone?? please state where u obtained this information . .
The Mammon Machine is dreamstone. The Frozen flame is inside it. Like I said above, put two and two together.
I mean really people, The Flame can't come out of nowhere. Where was the flame found? In the Ocean, right where El Nido is. In RD, where Regorria was, that was where the Zealian ruins were, underneath of where Viper Manor was, and where the Flame had been kept and passed down.
Now, why would the Flame be in the ocean? Because it sunk with the Ocean Palace! Duh =.= Belthasar aquired it, and he automatically knew how to control it, but since there was no dreamstone left, he had to construct that device that holds it in the Arbiter room.
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Yeah, you put two and two together. Problem is, you got 5.
I mean honestly, RD implies that the Einlanzer was made in Zeal, which we know to be false from CC.
I never believed that the Mammon Machine contained the Frozen Flame, and quite frankly I never will.
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i hav played CC and i can put 2 n 2 together
there is no need for ur intended criticism
u must be aware that there are many many gaps in between all of this
we can only speculate as FANS, we do not know the real truth
sure we could put 2 n 2 together to make something worth seeming right
but in the long run . . . we will never really kno wat happened
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It is assumption to say RD has the exact same past as CT. It has a similar past; that's all we know.
And I dunno about you, but the official art of the Dreamstone looks enough like a shard to pass as such.
In either case, I feel like a broken record, but I've decided to stop considering the Woolsey CT as a bible. I'm waiting for further literal debate until the Retranslation is done.
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People can't use examples such as the Einlanzer as an example without accepting that RD is a prototype in some areas for CC. Officially, RD is one of the sequals to CT.
Anyway, no one can still answer me how dreamstone can create love and hate and furthur evolve humans, as described by Belthasar as a red shard, when in CC the red shard that did such a thing was the Frozen Flame, which in RD existed inside the Mammon Machine.
RD was after CT. RD builds off some gaps which CT left like what happened to Magus, and things like what Lucca was up too and that the Frozen Flame was there.
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Mystik3eb, there's always Kwhazit's translation, which is mostly complete:
http://members.fortunecity.com/kwhazit/trans/ct/index.html
As Mystik3eb said, people would go mad by touching it etc.. But..
Did you also forget that the FF would be encased inside the dreamstone, and also that Schala IS THE ONLY PERSON WHO CAN ACTIVATE THE MAMMON MACHINE, hint hint as to why. Even Queen Zeal could not operate it.
Schala isn't the only person who can activate it. She can activate it not because she is special, but because she has the pendant. Did you forget that even Crono and the party can activate the Machine and charge Marle's pendant? Queen Zeal could probably takes Schala's pendant and do her dirty work by herself, but she doesn't because, as one NPC in Zeal says, Schala is better at magic than her mother.
Anyway, since RD's past is the same as CT's, it's not a stretch.
It isn't. Regionna, Regiorra, and Gerzbuehle exist in RD but don't in CT. Lucca's orphanage in RD is in Regionna, while in CC it's obviously her old house with additional rooms. Also, RD claims that the Einlanzer was forged by "ancient sages", while CC states that the Einlanzer was forged by Dragonians. RD actually gives a very precise indication here despite what one could think, although it's blurred by the different translations: in CT, "Gurus of Zeal" is a Woolseyism, in the Japanese version the 3 guys were called "Sages of Zeal" (Belthasar does say he used to be "a sage of reason" in the American CC).
Not to mention that Luccia adds onto this and says that the Frozen Flame must have been what destroyed a civilization. Why? Because it was responsible for awakening Lavos since Schala awakened it. Through it, the whole fall of Zeal happened.
You're referring to her Frozen Flame quote? The characters actually speaks with Lavos there, so it's normal to hear that Lavos destroyed civilizations.
Also, a thing made of Dreamstone itself can't just absorbed Lavos' energy. It seems pretty weird that people, even though RD furthur explained this, would think that Dreamstone can randomly just absorb energy from a being that is probably about 6km under their planet, without having any sort of connection with it.
Dreamstone can just absorb Lavos' energy. The pendant and the Masamune do just that. Those two items have to be in direct contact with the source though. As for the Mammon Machine, it doesn't need to be that close to the source, it's more efficient. Because, you know, it's a machine, which was built specifically for that purpose by brillant mages/scientists. It's not a random block of raw Dreamstone.
I have a question now. If the Frozen Flame was in the Mammon Machine, why was the Machine such an wimpy boss in the Black Omen in CT? If I recall correctly, its only attack was some red explosion that looks like Lucca's Flare. If the Frozen Flame was inside, why didn't it freeze Crono's party, drive them crazy, possess them, or transform them into catmen or something?
Honestly, I do think that the Flame could have been in the Machine, but it would explain as much things as it would contradict other things. It's bound to be "just" an interpretation and not canon nor a solid theory.
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Schala isn't the only person who can activate it. She can activate it not because she is special, but because she has the pendant. Did you forget that even Crono and the party can activate the Machine and charge Marle's pendant? Queen Zeal could probably takes Schala's pendant and do her dirty work by herself, but she doesn't because, as one NPC in Zeal says, Schala is better at magic than her mother.
Actually, Marle's Pendant didn't activate the Machine. What they did was charge the pendant from the impulses from the machine, that everybody was feeling in the room.
It isn't. Regionna, Regiorra, and Gerzbuehle exist in RD but don't in CT. Lucca's orphanage in RD is in Regionna, while in CC it's obviously her old house with additional rooms. Also, RD claims that the Einlanzer was forged by "ancient sages", while CC states that the Einlanzer was forged by Dragonians. RD actually gives a very precise indication here despite what one could think, although it's blurred by the different translations: in CT, "Gurus of Zeal" is a Woolseyism, in the Japanese version the 3 guys were called "Sages of Zeal" (Belthasar does say he used to be "a sage of reason" in the American CC).
That's exactally why I said past. Also, since RD was a sequal as well as a future plan for CC, obviously things were named differently and changed. The consept of reptites could not have been there since Project Kid was never done. Also, I don't remember it being stated that Lucca's orphanage was in Regorria. What I remember was that Lucca had dealed with Lynx, and when she didn't do something for him, he had Porre destroy her house and have her killed or something alone the lines.
Also, the FF is not dreamstone for one, it's just the shape at the time that they had. It wouldn't make sence for Schala to blame herself over the incident, which she caused by activating the flame, which caused Lavos to wake, if it was not even a part of Lavos.
You're referring to her Frozen Flame quote? The characters actually speaks with Lavos there, so it's normal to hear that Lavos destroyed civilizations.
Luccia:
Ack!
Vot power...
Dis power is not somet'ing
man should possess.
yes...it is just as I t'ought.
Several civilizations have
already been destroyed
because of dis immense power...
As you said, my friend...
Science should only be used
for the betterhood of mankind,
no!?
She's talking about the Flames power, and she's not talking to Lavos, she's probably talking to Schala. It's like a telephone. Schala is on the other line, but the Schala that is on the other line is the one with only hatred left in her.
Kid:
An ancient magical kingdom...?
That you destroyed
ten thousand years ago...?
What are ya talkin' about?
Kid:
Stop it...
I don't know nothin'!
I'm...
I'm Kid!!
I'm myself and
nobody else!!
Schala in RD blamed herself for the whole mess. Schala collapsed at the end of that scene in CT, telling everybody to forgive her kingdom and to not blame her mother, and it almost seemed to me as if she started realising that it was her fault for going ahead with it all. In this line, It seems as if Schala is telling Kid the truth of who they are, of the two halves of one that they are, kinda.
Dreamstone can just absorb Lavos' energy. The pendant and the Masamune do just that. Those two items have to be in direct contact with the source though. As for the Mammon Machine, it doesn't need to be that close to the source, it's more efficient. Because, you know, it's a machine, which was built specifically for that purpose by brillant mages/scientists. It's not a random block of raw Dreamstone.
It can't absorb it without a physical touching. The Masamune can't just point itself and Magus and absorb his magic, or drain the Mammon Machine by being around it. The Pendant had to touch that little red button (probably a hole that pulsed out the energy) to be regenerated. Ofcourse I know it's not a random piece of dreamstone. But if you look at it, it looks more like some sort of sentient being rather than a machine. That little red dot in the centre, like a hollow piece looks as if something is sitting there. Also, a machine can't just work without a powersource or having some connectiong to something. If the Flame atleast powers the machine, that'd explain one thing. If the flame is inside it, and gives that link, then it explains it. Then the Zealians just got to greedy and wanted the link to be stronger, hence more power, and Lavos awoke.
I have a question now. If the Frozen Flame was in the Mammon Machine, why was the Machine such an wimpy boss in the Black Omen in CT? If I recall correctly, its only attack was some red explosion that looks like Lucca's Flare. If the Frozen Flame was inside, why didn't it freeze Crono's party, drive them crazy, possess them, or transform them into catmen or something?
Well, you can't really ask me. For one, the consept of the Flame being sentient may not have been created at the time. Or that the consept of it freezing people wasn't there. Heck, you know what, nobody freezes by being around it, except in the Dead Sea. Everyone else who was around it never froze. And Wazuki didn't go mad from it. The script said it was that he was maddened by the terror of the image of Serge dying that made him lose his mind, probably done by the flame, but maybe that was because FATE had contact with it again or something. Heck, the flame may even be restricted in the Mammon Machine, and that machine in FATE. Remember how that scientist guy said that he was afraid to do the counter time experiment since they'd let the Frozen Flame lose, and would be exposed to it's anti anihilation energy? Maybe because Chronopolis was down, that anihilation energy was exposed upon Wazuki, but since the Mammon Machine and that big ass machinery in Chronopolis can handle it and are designed to, that may be why.
Honestly, I do think that the Flame could have been in the Machine, but it would explain as much things as it would contradict other things. It's bound to be "just" an interpretation and not canon nor a solid theory.
Well, since an object was stated to enhance humans in CT had a name, but then was named in CC, i'd give it that credit. It's just like with Magus. I don't remember it being stated anywhere that he was Zealian. But we infer that since we know he lived there and is actually Janus. Just because something isn't stated doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. If people are going to play by those rules, then Magus isn't Zealian, no matter what is inclined, just like what i'm trying to show is. Heck, even Lucca didn't have a last name in CT, and Crono had no mention of a father. Does that mean she has no last name and Crono's mom had a virgin birth? Blah.
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No offense Zaper, but that closing argument is a little silly. You've made a comparison between your theory, which is supported by one or two vague quotes, to Magus being Janus, which is if I recall, blatantly stated.
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[Young Woman]
Magic strong enough to control the
extraction of energy, is needed to
control the Mammon Machine.
Anyone with sufficient magic power could operate the Mammon Machine. What do you suppose those Enlightened Ones who continuously stood around it were doing?
Schala was an extraordinarily powerful magic user, surpassing even Queen Zeal. That is why she was the only one who could use the pendant to bring the Mammon Machine to its full power. Janus, who had even greater power, could have operated the machine as well, and he may have concealed his magical abilities for that reason.
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Good assumption. He saw how Schala was used and didn't want Q.Zeal to use him the same way.
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No offense Zaper, but that closing argument is a little silly. You've made a comparison between your theory, which is supported by one or two vague quotes, to Magus being Janus, which is if I recall, blatantly stated.
North Cape scene
nontheless, about the whole convo and all . . . in this case we're presented with two sides of a coin and both interpretations of these cases which hav been stated are either convincing or stretching the truth
again might i bring up that as FANS we can only speculate
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Actually, Marle's Pendant didn't activate the Machine. What they did was charge the pendant from the impulses from the machine, that everybody was feeling in the room.
Actually, it did.
She's talking about the Flames power, and she's not talking to Lavos, she's probably talking to Schala. It's like a telephone. Schala is on the other line, but the Schala that is on the other line is the one with only hatred left in her.
Hated filled Schala is fused with Lavos and more or less shares his thoughts, so not like it matters. And it seems to be implied that the Frozen Flame just thrusts horrible thoughts into your headto intimidate you.
It can't absorb it without a physical touching. The Masamune can't just point itself and Magus and absorb his magic, or drain the Mammon Machine by being around it. The Pendant had to touch that little red button (probably a hole that pulsed out the energy) to be regenerated. Ofcourse I know it's not a random piece of dreamstone. But if you look at it, it looks more like some sort of sentient being rather than a machine. That little red dot in the centre, like a hollow piece looks as if something is sitting there. Also, a machine can't just work without a powersource or having some connectiong to something. If the Flame atleast powers the machine, that'd explain one thing. If the flame is inside it, and gives that link, then it explains it. Then the Zealians just got to greedy and wanted the link to be stronger, hence more power, and Lavos awoke.
The Mammon Machine was specifically designed to absorb Lavos' energy without touching him. That was the point. As for a machine working without a powersource, yea well that's magic for you.
Well, since an object was stated to enhance humans in CT had a name, but then was named in CC, i'd give it that credit. It's just like with Magus. I don't remember it being stated anywhere that he was Zealian. But we infer that since we know he lived there and is actually Janus. Just because something isn't stated doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. If people are going to play by those rules, then Magus isn't Zealian, no matter what is inclined, just like what i'm trying to show is. Heck, even Lucca didn't have a last name in CT, and Crono had no mention of a father. Does that mean she has no last name and Crono's mom had a virgin birth? Blah.
Stuff like Magus and Crono's father are a whole lot different than a quote referring to something that didn't even exist in Chronoverse at the time of the quote's writing. At the time of the quote's writing, there were no plans for a sequel, so the only thing that could fit there would be Dreamstone or my earlier Philosopher's Stone metaphor.
Either way, you can't say the Frozen Flame was in the Mammon Machine without accepting that Einlanzer was made by the same guy that made Masamune and that Magus remained in present day and that Lynx is a goddamn "Alieum from Spaces" or something.
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Either way, you can't say the Frozen Flame was in the Mammon Machine without accepting that Einlanzer was made by the same guy that made Masamune and that Magus remained in present day and that Lynx is a goddamn "Alieum from Spaces" or something.
Lynx is actually an Aristocrat in the scenario with the Mammon Machinie and the truth about Schala.
Also, the Einlanzer there was a prototype, so I don't see your point.
[Young Woman]
Magic strong enough to control the
extraction of energy, is needed to
control the Mammon Machine.
Anyone with sufficient magic power could operate the Mammon Machine. What do you suppose those Enlightened Ones who continuously stood around it were doing?
[Young Woman]
The Mammon Machine?
You came to see it?
Yes.
No.
I thought so!
Feel the flow of the mighty Lavos's
power?
Oh...I feel faint.
It's more like their standing around, absorbing the energy of the machine. If you're thinking that 7 people can control the flame, then you might aswell compair them to Schala, whom survived countless years with Lavos >.>
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Also, the Einlanzer there was a prototype, so I don't see your point.
The Einlanzer is something in RD and something different in CC. Same for the Frozen Flame... it's different in CC than in RD.
Also, in CT, the Black Omen was destroyed when the defeated Queen Zeal summoned Lavos (we clearly see a dark Luminaire-like orb desintegrating the Omen on the world map). It's apparently true for CC, because we never hear about the Omen again. Belthasar did found the Frozen Flame though, which proves that the Flame wasn't in the Omen.
Moreover, the Omen was located above what is Heckran's Cave in 1,000 A.D. (and the same spot in 12,000 B.C. although there was only water). In the future, Belthasar found the Frozen Flame in El Nido, which is located somewhere west of Porre. The Black Omen was never west of Porre.
Now in RD, Lynx supposedly found some Zealian ruins and the Frozen Flame in them. Thus RD contradicts CT/CC by claiming that the Black Omen wasn't disintegrated...
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After reading 2 pages of arguements I really cannot say that I believe in Zaper's theory. There are too many contradicitions, and Zaper said
Also, the FF is not dreamstone for one, it's just the shape at the time that they had.
But then if its inside the Mammon Machine, the Mammon Machine would have to be either, no dreamstone (which is completely false because we know this by CT) or a reduced amount of dreamstone. Now why would they bother to reduce dreamstone? There is no reason for them to. Dreamstone is very efficent at absorbing energy, and less rare, much less rare, than FF.
Also:
(Dreamstone) can't absorb (Lavos' power) without a physical touching.
There is no proof that once fully enriched it cannot. Now how can object absorb energy without touching physicaly? Well if that did not occur in the real world, the wonder of CT would never have existed. It is called inductance. In the real world, when electricity runs through a copper (or any conductive material) coil it causes a magnetic field. If there is another coil placed parallel to it, a voltage is inducted. (There is no contradiction with the 2nd law of thermodynamics, because the net energy remains constant in the system) The two coils do not physically touch eachother. That is the technology used to convert the 50 kV or whatever from a power supply to the 220 V to your house, then down to 110 V if you live in US, and down to say 19.5 V for your laptop. (Thats what the big plastic thing is for). Now why can the Dreamstone not be a conducting material for the energy of Lavos? The same concept would work. The very power it inducts could be used to sustain itself. The pendant could have been made of pretty crappy material and thus needed to be brought deep within the machine to make the induction possible. (This is true with normal induction too, if you have the coils far away, only a very small fraction of the electromagnetic flux will pass through the other coil and gain a voltage).
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My point was that with evidence, no item was ever charged by Lavos' power without touching.
Also, At Chrono'99,
I see your point. But the thing here is that things do change rapidly in the CT World. The Flame could have drifted off, or moved their by itself. Heck, it could have been warped there or something. We don't know, but aslong as it existed all along, and caused humans to evolve, and we know of its powers, then we know that it existed for a long time. With that being said, I would have thought that Queen Zeal would love to have it. I mean, if the Zealians detected Lavos, surely the great power of the Flame must have been detected and utilized.
And also, as for RD. The Zealian may not have been the Black Omens, but Zeals anyway. And the flame wasn't found there, Viper's ancestors kept it in their line or something.
Remembering that RD was a sequal and a prototype, some truths and facts were carried over. Like I said, from what CT didn't divulge, RD filled us in. Heck, we know Magus is looking for Schala, this is a world where Magus gets that, so if Magus also exists, and Lucca exists, then atleast the CT event should have happened, but it went off course ofcourse. If in RD the Mammon Machine is the same, and it was, and the flame was used, then it probably was used in CT, or atleast the consept was so that historically, we would admit to it being there, even though we don't find out till later. Just like with the time egg, till CC came, the true way that it worked wasn't figured out.
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If you're thinking that 7 people can control the flame, then you might aswell compair them to Schala, whom survived countless years with Lavos >.>
Not thinking they can control the Flame. Thinking they can control the flow of absorption provided by Dreamstone and Dreamstone alone. Which could be possible.
I think it's safe to say the ability to asorb and use power/magic was a good enough basis for causing love/hate and all that jazz. Dreamstone helped provide that without the FF, and so did Elemental power before that.
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Although this doesn't apply to the current topic, FATE used the Frozen Flame as a power source and it obviously wasn't the Arbiter.
The Frozen Flame wasn't some sort of wish granting talisman; that was a myth. The Frozen Flame was a living piece of Lavos. Being the Arbiter of the Frozen Flame meat Serge had a special communion with Lavos, and had the power to choose between the planet and the Time Devourer. In all possibility, Serge was the only individual to ever be chosen by the Flame as "Arbiter."
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Although this doesn't apply to the current topic, FATE used the Frozen Flame as a power source and it obviously wasn't the Arbiter.
The Frozen Flame wasn't some sort of wish granting talisman; that was a myth. The Frozen Flame was a living piece of Lavos. Being the Arbiter of the Frozen Flame meat Serge had a special communion with Lavos, and had the power to choose between the planet and the Time Devourer. In all possibility, Serge was the only individual to ever be chosen by the Flame as "Arbiter."
Well, that's why I said that the machine in Chronopolis that held the flame was like the Mammon Machine. FATE isn't touching the flame, but the energy is being kinda sealed and being used. Heck, without these machines, it may explain why people such as that scientist feared the "anihilation energy" of the flame.
And yes, Serge may have been the only person chosen as Arbiter, but not by Lavos, but by Schala since that person whom called upon him should only have been her in her desperation trying to save him. And besides that, Lavos chose Schala to evolve from.
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Just a note: if Schala was an Arbiter, Kid would be too, and would have been able to access the Frozen Flame room. Lynx would then have sook (...sp?) to gain her body instead of waiting several years for Serge's body.
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Even so, Serge was made the new Arbiter. Maybe Schala, being both an Arbiter and Lavos' 'host', could choose to replace an Arbiter.
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very possible, and i like the statement about Kid being an arbiter too, it does seem to make sense
although i was wondering, Serge was only chosen as an arbiter because he approached Chronopolis and was in contact with the FF because of the panther demon attack, or was it simply Schala who automatically made Serge this icon because she pitied him?
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very possible, and i like the statement about Kid being an arbiter too, it does seem to make sense
although i was wondering, Serge was only chosen as an arbiter because he approached Chronopolis and was in contact with the FF because of the panther demon attack, or was it simply Schala who automatically made Serge this icon because she pitied him?
Serge was hurt and Schala heard his cried. She tried to make contact with the dimension, which caused may have on purpose caused Chronopolis to malfunction (if the flame did it). The storm washed Wazuki, Serge and Miguel to Chronopolis. Schala then beckoned Wazuki to bring Serge to the flame, and upon touching it, he became the Arbiter of Time and the Arbiter of the Flame. Basically, whatever happened, Schala let Serge touch it without freezing or going insane or whatever.
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awesome, thank you for that!
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Just a note: if Schala was an Arbiter, Kid would be too, and would have been able to access the Frozen Flame room. Lynx would then have sook (...sp?) to gain her body instead of waiting several years for Serge's body.
And possibly Harle. Kid and Harle are NOT Arbiters, so logically Schala is not. (Especially since she needed a damn Pendant and the Mammon Machine to use the Flame, if she did infact make contact with it.)
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Just a note: if Schala was an Arbiter, Kid would be too, and would have been able to access the Frozen Flame room. Lynx would then have sook (...sp?) to gain her body instead of waiting several years for Serge's body.
And possibly Harle. Kid and Harle are NOT Arbiters, so logically Schala is not. (Especially since she needed a damn Pendant and the Mammon Machine to use the Flame, if she did infact make contact with it.)
Well here's another interesting thing...
If Schala passed the arbital status on, and is just now a part of Lavos, which gives her control of the flame since shes a part of it now, Serge can be the arbiter, and Kid and Harle can't since her power over it is because shes merged with Lavos, and not biological since she passed it on.
But the strange thing here is that Kid and Harle did not get burned. But, one would have to accept the fact that that machine keeps the anihilation energy from overwhelming anyone, but then Harle did tell Kid not to touch it, since then she'd be un stopable, and this probably has something to do with Schala being on the other end of the flame (possibly). But then, Harle did physically touch the flame, and fly out of Chronopolis, and then the Dragon God merge and the flame either appeared on Terra Tower by it's own will (Which kind of relates back to the fact that the flame may have wanted to be found in El Nido or it went there), or that the Dragon God carried it there, which would be weird since the Dragon God only wanted it away from FATE, and FATE was dead..
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If Schala passed the arbital status on, and is just now a part of Lavos, which gives her control of the flame since shes a part of it now, Serge can be the arbiter, and Kid and Harle can't since her power over it is because shes merged with Lavos, and not biological since she passed it on.
How does one become an Arbiter in the first place? If linking with the flame and not being the Arbiter has disaterous results, then what caused Serge to link with the Flame and, instead of being vaporized, gaining access to it?
Therefore I postulate the following: What evidence is there that only Serge could use the flame? Granted, only Serge could access it in the first place. But that was due to the Prometheus lock, not the Flame itself. And those frozen in the Dead Sea? I theorize that it was connected to FATE, or rather some version of the Prometheus lock in the Home World, since it seemed to serve the exact same purpose by locking out everyone but Serge. Also, your party members aren't affected by it at all physically on Terra Tower, though they each receive a vision. Serge may recieve a similar one, but we can never know thanks to the Silent Protagonist principle.
Therefore, I think that there's nothing really special about Serge's connection to the Flame other than the Prometheus Circuit, and that anyone who uses the flame becomes, in effect, an Arbiter.
But the strange thing here is that Kid and Harle did not get burned. But, one would have to accept the fact that that machine keeps the anihilation energy from overwhelming anyone, but then Harle did tell Kid not to touch it, since then she'd be un stopable, and this probably has something to do with Schala being on the other end of the flame (possibly). But then, Harle did physically touch the flame, and fly out of Chronopolis, and then the Dragon God merge and the flame either appeared on Terra Tower by it's own will (Which kind of relates back to the fact that the flame may have wanted to be found in El Nido or it went there), or that the Dragon God carried it there, which would be weird since the Dragon God only wanted it away from FATE, and FATE was dead..
Uh...why would the Frozen Flame burn anything? It's not like it's actual fire or anything.
I'd be inclined to agree that Harle's warning has either to do with the sudden intake of Schala's memories, or the presence of Schala merged wiht the TD.
I don't think the Dragon God's single goal was to get the flame away from FATE. They were the physical manifesation of the TD in the dimensions. I think they would attempt to do what the Dead Sea ghosts warned Serge about, and somehow bring about the ruined future.
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How does one become an Arbiter in the first place? If linking with the flame and not being the Arbiter has disaterous results, then what caused Serge to link with the Flame and, instead of being vaporized, gaining access to it?
Therefore I postulate the following: What evidence is there that only Serge could use the flame? Granted, only Serge could access it in the first place. But that was due to the Prometheus lock, not the Flame itself. And those frozen in the Dead Sea? I theorize that it was connected to FATE, or rather some version of the Prometheus lock in the Home World, since it seemed to serve the exact same purpose by locking out everyone but Serge. Also, your party members aren't affected by it at all physically on Terra Tower, though they each receive a vision. Serge may recieve a similar one, but we can never know thanks to the Silent Protagonist principle.
Therefore, I think that there's nothing really special about Serge's connection to the Flame other than the Prometheus Circuit, and that anyone who uses the flame becomes, in effect, an Arbiter.
Uh...why would the Frozen Flame burn anything? It's not like it's actual fire or anything.
I'd be inclined to agree that Harle's warning has either to do with the sudden intake of Schala's memories, or the presence of Schala merged wiht the TD.
I don't think the Dragon God's single goal was to get the flame away from FATE. They were the physical manifesation of the TD in the dimensions. I think they would attempt to do what the Dead Sea ghosts warned Serge about, and somehow bring about the ruined future.
1) Well I guess the game just inclined that one whom has access to the flame becomes the communicator with Lavos and the whole world. My idea was that since Schala was controlling the flame at the time, and is arbiter, she was able to let Serge touch it and hence pass it onto him before she lost it totally. Possibly, if she remained arbiter, the merging would have completed faster (like how Belthasar said the whole thing about the arbiter merging with the flame, the seed of destruction or whatever).
2)True, there is no evidence, but it's inclined. In a way, it's like how im inclining the flame was in the Mammon Machine, but to a greater extent. Though, I too don't know why some people got burned and some didn't. It may have to do with that anihilation energy or whatever that made Wazuki go crazy, and freeze the people of home world. Though, like you said, FATE may have played a part in that. But then again, why didn't FATE go after that flame? Probably because they would have gotten frozen too.
3) When I said burned, I meant frozen or whatever the flame does. Personally, I had always thought that by Kid touching the flame, she and Schala may merge back or something, or Schala's hatred would overwhelm Kid or something and she'd gain all the power of the flame or such. And at the same time, Harle did not, but she's not Schala's true daughter clone.
4) With the Dragon God, my own thought was that they would use the Flame for their own purpose, to maybe sack revenge against the Time Devourer, but they didn't use the Flame, so it probably got their by itself in a way. Other than that, it also seemed that the Dragon God at the same time wanted to test Serge and group by seeing if they could defeat it. If they could defeat the Dragon God, then maybe they had a chance to destroy the TD.
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3)Personally, I had always thought that by Kid touching the flame, she and Schala may merge back or something, or Schala's hatred would overwhelm Kid or something and she'd gain all the power of the flame or such. And at the same time, Harle did not, but she's not Schala's true daughter clone.
idk . . . i am kinda thinking that the scenes in the end . . . the girl in the white dress being Schala . . . then u see Kid sailing somewhere unknown (perhaps a new adventure)
m thinking they were not merged because of those two scenes, or Schala told Kid where to look for Magus (as u see her leave El Nido maybe?) who was probably still looking for Schala
sorry to get side tracked . . . but getting back to the Arbiter
perhaps, since Serge was hurt and the Flame could heal (sought a good oppertunity?) automatically made Serge this arbiter
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1) Well I guess the game just inclined that one whom has access to the flame becomes the communicator with Lavos and the whole world. My idea was that since Schala was controlling the flame at the time, and is arbiter, she was able to let Serge touch it and hence pass it onto him before she lost it totally. Possibly, if she remained arbiter, the merging would have completed faster (like how Belthasar said the whole thing about the arbiter merging with the flame, the seed of destruction or whatever).
Now, I tend to think that anyone who contacts the Frozen Flame would be capable of using it--though perhaps they would need a strong will, or constitution--but Serge is special because of the Prometheus lock. In any case, I think the warning was that since using the flame links you with Lavos, you always run the risk of becoming part of him, whoever you are.
2)True, there is no evidence, but it's inclined. In a way, it's like how im inclining the flame was in the Mammon Machine, but to a greater extent. Though, I too don't know why some people got burned and some didn't. It may have to do with that anihilation energy or whatever that made Wazuki go crazy, and freeze the people of home world. Though, like you said, FATE may have played a part in that. But then again, why didn't FATE go after that flame? Probably because they would have gotten frozen too.
It was my understanding that Wazuki went nutso because FATE overwrote his personality with a new one: Lynx.
As for FATE having gone after the the Flame, it may been able to interact with some aspects, but I don't believe Lynx was alive in Home World, and therefore FATE had no avatar to get the flame.
3) When I said burned, I meant frozen or whatever the flame does.
We never really figure out what the hell it really does, do we?
Personally, I had always thought that by Kid touching the flame, she and Schala may merge back or something, or Schala's hatred would overwhelm Kid or something and she'd gain all the power of the flame or such. And at the same time, Harle did not, but she's not Schala's true daughter clone.
My thought was that she'd gain Schala's memories, but I see where you're coming from.
4) With the Dragon God, my own thought was that they would use the Flame for their own purpose, to maybe sack revenge against the Time Devourer, but they didn't use the Flame, so it probably got their by itself in a way. Other than that, it also seemed that the Dragon God at the same time wanted to test Serge and group by seeing if they could defeat it. If they could defeat the Dragon God, then maybe they had a chance to destroy the TD.
Why would they get revenge against the Time Devourer? They're an extension of his will, essentially. In fact, Harle may be to the Dragon God what Lynx is to FATE, but the Dragon God has that same relationship to the Time Devourer.
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Now, I tend to think that anyone who contacts the Frozen Flame would be capable of using it--though perhaps they would need a strong will, or constitution--but Serge is special because of the Prometheus lock. In any case, I think the warning was that since using the flame links you with Lavos, you always run the risk of becoming part of him, whoever you are.
It was my understanding that Wazuki went nutso because FATE overwrote his personality with a new one: Lynx.
As for FATE having gone after the the Flame, it may been able to interact with some aspects, but I don't believe Lynx was alive in Home World, and therefore FATE had no avatar to get the flame.
We never really figure out what the hell it really does, do we?
My thought was that she'd gain Schala's memories, but I see where you're coming from.
Why would they get revenge against the Time Devourer? They're an extension of his will, essentially. In fact, Harle may be to the Dragon God what Lynx is to FATE, but the Dragon God has that same relationship to the Time Devourer.
Damn it, I love it how you reply GreenGannon. You're like the only person who ever replies to everything that I say ^^
Alright. Just a few points that i'd like to make.
Wazuki, from the game script, had his mind corrupted by the flame. Something about him seeing Serge die made him maddened and then FATE took the opportunity to take his body and use it as a remote part of itself because his soul was detered or something.
One thing about Home world that I think is that Lynx never killed Lucca there. He can't get her to cross dimensions, he can't really do anything. So whatever Lynx did (which involved tricking the Acacia Dragoons to go to the Dead Sea), he did not kill Lucca, since they tried in Another and it got them no where.
And a thing about Serge. The game implies that he is powerful because the dimensions split for him, which means he's important to time. As the game is about free will, whatever his choice is, he will decide whether the time devourer matures or is destroyed.
As for The Dragon God, there is nothing in the game that says that they were affected by the TD. The only thing that happened was that upon being sealed by the Flame, Lavos was able to drain their power, and the only thing that they had left was their projections. They still operate for the planet, wanting to help it get rid of the humans, which they think is the problem. Without Harle, I doubt they'd have a physical presence in the dimension.
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Damn it, I love it how you reply GreenGannon. You're like the only person who ever replies to everything that I say ^^
That's just how I do things. I think my reasoning has something to do with making sure everything's accounted for and addressed.
Or something.
Alright. Just a few points that i'd like to make.
Fire away.
Wazuki, from the game script, had his mind corrupted by the flame. Something about him seeing Serge die made him maddened and then FATE took the opportunity to take his body and use it as a remote part of itself because his soul was detered or something.
Well, since we have the script here on the Compendium, I think it's a shame if we don't use it. Pulling up all "Wazuki" references...
[Crono]
I don't know how to break
this to you, but...
Lynx was actually your
father, Wazuki!
Drawing closer to the Flame
caused him to become unstable,
and the image of you dying in
terror changed him completely!
Finally, after having his
psyche totally eroded,
he lost his soul and was
easily integrated by FATE...
FATE turned Wazuki into a
biological interface, modelling
him after your worst fear at
the time -- a panther.
Although Wazuki managed to
escape from Chronopolis with
you, he later completely
succumbed to FATE.
Humans are such fragile,
disjointed, imperfect things.
Love and hate...
Life and death...
OK, fair point. My only response to this would be that perhaps, part of the flame's effect is that people see their inner demons or their worst fears reflected in it. While having limited support, I'd like to believe it since I figure it would add so much more emotional strength to the concept of Serge's crew being able to face their demons in contrast to how Wazuki succumbed to his.
Bah, mere ramblings! Let's move on.
One thing about Home world that I think is that Lynx never killed Lucca there. He can't get her to cross dimensions, he can't really do anything. So whatever Lynx did (which involved tricking the Acacia Dragoons to go to the Dead Sea), he did not kill Lucca, since they tried in Another and it got them no where.
I don't really understand Lynx's role in Home world other than that he failed to kill Serge.
And a thing about Serge. The game implies that he is powerful because the dimensions split for him, which means he's important to time. As the game is about free will, whatever his choice is, he will decide whether the time devourer matures or is destroyed.
Right, but I don't think that's directly related to him and the flame. I can't promise that this will be easy to follow, so try and bear with me.
Serge comes into contact with the flame and Prometheus does his little thing. Since FATE can't access it, it decides to kill Serge--though that apparently doesn't seem to do anything--Kid travels back in time and saves him in such a way that the dimensions split, and through the course of events, the Prometheus circuit is unlocked. Now Serge isn't special because only he can access the flame. It's pretty open now. But he is still a special case. The damage has been done and he's still the missing piece regardless.
As for The Dragon God, there is nothing in the game that says that they were affected by the TD. The only thing that happened was that upon being sealed by the Flame, Lavos was able to drain their power, and the only thing that they had left was their projections. They still operate for the planet, wanting to help it get rid of the humans, which they think is the problem. Without Harle, I doubt they'd have a physical presence in the dimension.
I believe this was addressed with the whole
OMG! ITS NAME IS THE TIEM DEVOURER + Kato supervised the translation = OMGWTFBBQ?
...I never was all that great at math.
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Despite this topic being based on speculation in check by some facts (cycle + spawn) and also featuring an ethical argument settled in 2004, I think we have something interesting here. This is what shall go in the new theory:
===Dream of Perfection===
''dreamaddict''
Whether naturally evolved and sentient or created, Lavos's purpose as an entire race is to achieve the utmost in biological perfection and essentially produce a god whose powers would be beyond anything comprehensible. In this mode, the trillions who'd perish in the cycle would be a "few eggs broken" to create the larger omelet of perfection and mastery of the universe through biological engineering.
~
Also, just want to note that this:
"Janus, who had even greater power, could have operated the machine as well, and he may have concealed his magical abilities for that reason."
was totally confirmed by the CT Retranslation, which explicitly noted that Janus hid his power to avoid having to deal with Lavos and his corrupted mother. Nice, cogent assessment there, Lensman.
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Well surely, anyone can operate the machine as long as their the arbiter. Or, without being the arbiter, they operate the machine to operate the flame because no one wants to get to close to the flame, except for Schala who did end up doing that in RD, and we all should know what happened there.
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But it require someone who is powerful enough to control the machine right? That's the reason why they chose Schala as the arbiter because nobody is powerful enough to control the Mammon Machine. If anyone can operate it then they don't need Schala to operate such dangerous machine. I mean, why would they endanger the life of a princess when they can use a commoner as an arbiter?
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Well thats what I was trying to say. Maybe only the arbiter can control the machine. And even if Janus wanted to be the arbiter, he couldn't. Schala was either chosen by it (which ties in with CC) or that she accidently became it. And there may be a possibility that arbiter status is lost only when the arbiter dies.
I mean, come on. Not only Schala could operate it if it was only on their power. The Guru's, Dalton, even Zeal could. There would have to have been a reason why Schala was the only one. Remember, she did say that the machine would never work without her.
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Or, seeing as the Frozen Flame is only in the Mammon Machine according to Radical Dreamers, which contradicts both CT and CC on numerous occassions, maybe the criteria ISN'T having to be the Arbiter, since the Frozen Flame doesn't have to be involved and probably isn't whatsoever.
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Schala operated it because she was the most powerful person in Zeal (or so they thought, but Janus hid away his power). She was the prime choice. It's that simple.
Radical Dreamers's rumors of the Frozen Flame being used in the Mammon Machine can and do fit if the lost overarching plot line of Chrono Cross is considered:
http://www.chronocompendium.com/Term/Chrono_Cross_Condensed_Plot_Summary
The fact that Serge, as Arbiter, would be next in line to merge with the Time Devourer even hints that Schala is merging with the Time Devourer partly because of her status of Arbiter at the time. At any rate, we lack more information on this.
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I always assumed Lavos merged with her because she was the only "Living" thing in the DBT.