Chrono Compendium
Enhasa Halls - Chrono Series Analysis => Characters, Plot, and Themes => Topic started by: V_Translanka on September 01, 2005, 07:44:59 am
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Okay, over at Chrono Shock, someone just told me that they don't believe that, and in fact think that the idea is complete BS, Belthasar planned out the events of CC...
Check Out Dark Saint's Latest Posts (http://www.chronoshock.com/community/showthread.php?p=54317#post54317)
You can ignore our debate about Character Development, what it is, and whether or not Kid & Harle have a good amount of it in CC if you want...I'm actually defending the amount of Character Development in CC!!! Can you believe it?!?
Just thought I'd share...Move this if needed...It might not belong here...>_>
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Looking over some of the stuff going on in that topic you linked, I’m surprised just how often people are unable to grasp the concept of character development. They see that and take it to mean that the character has to change somehow, and that’s simply not true. Character development can be accomplished in three ways. One of them is change, aye, but the other two are dramatic conflict and exposition. I’m not taking these out of a book; rather, I make these propositions on my own authority, in my own words. However, those with a rigorous discipline in literature and composition will be quick to understand in official terms what I am explaining qualitatively.
Character development is the conveyance of a personality to an audience. The fundamental relationship between the three vehicles of character development that I have listed is that each conveys personality in a completely exclusive way.
~~~
First, and the most elemental of the three vehicles of character development, is to give the character a dramatic conflict to overcome. It’s a term that I thought kids learned in middle school language arts class, but I never hear anyone mention the concept of conflict in terms of character development. Dramatic conflict conveys personality in terms of stress lines and tension. Whereas the “path of least resistance” can be considered an absence of personality, any deviation from this path implies characteristics that in turn lead to a distinct personality. Because the nature of this type of character development is so often implicit, you might think of it as drawing the outline of a personality, rather than the substance of it.
Second, and the most unappreciated of the three vehicles of character development, is to give the character exposition. This has deep aesthetic value and isn’t used nearly often enough in modern English literature. It is also the most difficult of the three to master, and its absence is the most apparent telltale of an incompetent writer. Exposition conveys personality in terms of flesh, texture, and detail. Imagery is the key word here, provided you understand that I’m not talking about visual imagery so much as the…“image” of a hard disk, let’s say. Exposition is like a parade of imagery, revealing new characteristics that were not previously known, which build up to a distinct personality. If dramatic conflict is the outline of a personality, then exposition is the substance. And although exposition is not really the opposite of dramatic conflict, they do share a complementary relationship, much like nouns and verbs.
Third, and lastly of the three vehicles of character development, is to expose the character to change, per se, whereby the character’s traits are altered. It is therefore the most coarse technique of the three, although for longer stories it becomes exceedingly practicable. Whereas exposition reveals character traits, and conflict tests them, change affects them. It is therefore somewhat different from the first two, because it relies on the richness of existing character development to itself achieve richness. (After all, if you try changing something with no outline and no substance, who’s going to notice? Who’s going to care?) And, so, when people argue that a character must change in order to undergo “character development,” they are actually missing the entire point of the creation of character traits through conflict and exposition. (Yes, it is true that change can also create character traits, but only inasmuch as is provided an answer to, “Change from what?” Some would consider this to be simply a piggyback on one of the other two types of character development.) Thus, the people who make this argument are the same people who often feel compelled to throw their characters into various, contrived situations simply “to give them something to do.” Such folks do not grasp the theory of composition.
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Finally, please note that all three of these vehicles of character development are separable from the plot of a story. Character development and plot do not have to work together. Of course, in the best literature they nearly always do, but I mention it because most people just can’t separate the two concepts in their minds, which gives away their lack of understanding. Often, people will use “plot” and “character development” interchangeably, which is patently incorrect.
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“Exposition” is already a literary term, and it means the same thing I have taken it to mean here, but in a far more limited sense. So, hoping to avoid confusion, and operating on the hunch that few people here know what “exposition” really is in the sense that I intend, I have composed a very short story detailing character development through exposition. (This is loosely based upon a story I did not write.) At the heart of the story is a dramatic conflict, which comes in the form of a spoken question. However, everything else besides the question itself is pure exposition, with no explicit dramatic conflict and no change:
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A very old man, Louis Morgan, leaned back into an old walnut porch swing, eating a juicy peach from the orchard on his plantation. The warmth of the summer and the sweet flesh of the fruit sent him dreaming back to the day so long ago when, on that very same porch, he pondered whether he would ask the woman he loved to marry him…
“Will I or nill I?” the young man asked of himself, biting into the sweet flesh of a peach while anxiety and excitement battled together in his stomach. Because, after all, it is a big decision to ask the person you love to marry you. And as he thought it over, Louis looked about the orchards, and toward the fields beyond…into an endless sea of golden grass. His grandfather had founded this plantation over eighty years ago, in his prime. Built it out of nothing! He had been a legend of a man; no doubt. A few years after starting the plantation, he had gone on an expedition to California and returned with a dozen beautiful peach saplings and a new wife, whose father had given the saplings as a wedding gift. He planted them right outside the house, and went about raising a family.
The times soon called upon him, and he served as a colonel for the South before the war took him away forever. When she got the news, his wife was stricken with grief and suddenly felt very alone, for it was a long way from California and her own family. But by then they had two girls, one of whom would grow up to be Louis’ mother, and she put her heart into raising them. Louis remembered his grandmother as a young boy. She was very fond of those peach trees, and she could do magic with the fruit…peach pie, peach cobbler, peach salad. But on the hottest summer days, when the chores were finished, she would go outside with the young Louis, and they’d sit on the porch swing together and eat plain old ordinary raw peaches, right down to the pit, and they’d get covered in sticky peach juice and make an enormous mess of themselves, usually having a very good time of it.
As he grew up, Louis too began to treasure those peach trees—which by now were actually the descendents of the original trees, much like Louis himself was the descendent of the original Morgan. And so it was, that on this day, as he got to the end of the peach, the very last bite, and was licking the pit, thinking about the woman he loved, he wondered for the last time…“Will I or nill I?” Then he looked at the pit, coarse and brown in his sticky fingers, and waiting with eternal patience to be thrown back to the Earth so that it too could become a tree, someday. The sight of it struck him with a moment of deep clarity, and all at once the excitement and anxiety in his stomach paused, for just an instant, as he made his decision.
The memory faded. Louis found himself a very old man once more, sitting on his porch in the midst of a lovely summer afternoon, looking into the pit of another peach. His granddaughter sat beside him, still working on her own peach, talking in between bites about the sorts of creatures that only kids could see, and it was anyone’s guess if she was getting more of the peach in her mouth or on her dress. He grinned to himself and looked back out into the orchard again. Just apart from the other trees stood one in particular, surrounded by flagstones. It never gave the tastiest fruit, but it was always his favorite. He figured his granddaughter would probably understand, someday. And then Louis Morgan sat back in the swing and murmured half to himself, “I will.”
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I agree with him. Note that he isn't saying that he disagrees with the claim that Belthasar planned everything out, he says
On the contraire, I'm saying that he supposedly did - which is why I call BS. All accounted for, it's plain impossible for him to have prepared and planned out ten millenia worth of history, and a bevy of other impossiblities that's simply beyond the reach of a being that's not even a deity. Hell, he makes Lavos, Earth, FATE and the Dragon Gods seem like frightened pussy cats before his half-assed uber-omniscience.
It's really pretty much impossible to have planned everything out in this way, manipulating all those god-like entities (The Planet, Fate, Time Devourer, The Dragon Gods). It requires a hefty amount of suspension of disbelief, and really, I think it was just a dumb plot twist.
Edit: By the way, Lord J Esq, what you posted was very interesting and informative. I'm curious to know what you think on the subject of whether or not Chrono Cross has good character development. I'd say by that by the very nature of the fact that it has so many characters, it can't have good development, because as the player can have different characters for every situation, each character must react in the same way to a situation in order to make sure that the story goes on properly. That automatically takes away the idea of development through a character's reaction to dramatic conflict (I guess this can probably be seen in most RPGs!). Unless the programmers gave a side quest for each character, we have very little chance of seeing the characters change. So all that's really left is exposition, which we do get for most characters. Of course, there are a few characters who are more important to the story, and could theoretically get all three aspects of development, but I really never saw that happen to its full potential.
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Hes a nut case. Belthasar didn't plan out the exact events, he made an outline that would eventually reach his goal. That is explicit.
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Can you please explain what the parts of this outline were? It would have to end with Serge getting the Chrono Cross in order to free Schala. In order to get the Crono Cross, he would have to get the Dragon Tear in both dimensions. In order to do that, he would have to get pulled over to the other dimension, which required the Time Crash, Dinopolis being pulled back to counteract the Time Crash, the panther bite, Schala helping guiding Wazuki to Chronopolis, FATE creating Lynx to kill Serge so he could jump dimenstions, Schala creating Kid to save Serge and pull him to another World, ...Already he's toyed with the emotions of Schala, Lavos, the Planet, Fate... How can he have the power to predict all that?
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Those are the big points; easy enough to plan that when you have the greatest supercomputer ever created at your disposal. I'd be more worried about how he planned out the minute events concerning the manipulation of Porre and the Acacia Dragoons, etc.
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What Zeality said. I personally think he took a gamble with a few events. But its explicit in the game that Belthasar DID plan out the events, arguing otherwise is absurd.
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Moreover, he might not even have needed to predict some of the events. With his Neo-Epoch, he could just have change time, go to the future to see what are the consequences, then go back to the past and change some other details, etc.
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Moreover, he might not even have needed to predict some of the events. With his Neo-Epoch, he could just have change time, go to the future to see what are the consequences, then go back to the past and change some other details, etc.
hehe. "tweak" the plan when needed perhaps?
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Moreover, he might not even have needed to predict some of the events. With his Neo-Epoch, he could just have change time, go to the future to see what are the consequences, then go back to the past and change some other details, etc.
hehe. "tweak" the plan when needed perhaps?
Yep. We don't know that he didn't, so its possible.
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Keep in mind that Belthasar didn't actually do anything except cause the Time Crash to happen and help Serge out twice, but he knew that his actions would lead to Schala being freed from the Time Devourer. You don't find that a little bit unrealistic (even in a world with aliens and time travel?).
But its explicit in the game that Belthasar DID plan out the events, arguing otherwise is absurd.
Yes, I know that in the game that Belthasar planned everything. I just happen to think that it was a stupid move on the story writer's part.
Moreover, he might not even have needed to predict some of the events. With his Neo-Epoch, he could just have change time, go to the future to see what are the consequences, then go back to the past and change some details, etc.
I think Belthasar is smart enough to know that guessing and checking in the context of changing time is a bad idea. He could have ended up in a time similar to the original 2300 where he had no access to his supercomputer.
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He would have TTI, his Neo-Epoch would have that, and if a change resulted in a destroyed future, its simple as going back and undoing a change.
And just to comment on this:
Yes, I know that in the game that Belthasar planned everything. I just happen to think that it was a stupid move on the story writer's part.
Just because you don't think a part of the story was good enough, you discount it? Well, under that logic, we got a perfect solution to the Marle disappearing plot-hole! She didn't actually disappear! Because we don't like the way they did that part of the story, we can discount it!
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Did I say anywhere that I discounted the idea that Belthasar planned everything? No. I said several times that I understand that that is the basic idea behind the story. However, I happen to think that it is a stupid idea. Please, before you post again, take the time to understand what I am saying here. I am not arguing with you about what actually happened in the game, such as if we were arguing whether or not Schala merges with Kid at the end (an event that is up for debate), or whether or not Marle disappears (an event that is not up for debate). What I am trying to say is that I think the story itself is unrealistic. I'm not saying there is some other explanation for how everything occured.
In case you still don't understand, let me give you an example. In Star Wars Episode I, it is revealed that C3P0 is built by Anakin Skywalker. Some people (not including me) believe that this was a dumb idea. This doesn't mean that they actually think he was built by someone else. All it means is that they don't like the idea, in that case because it was cheesey and done as fan service. Me, I don't like the idea that Belthasar planned everything in the game because I find it unrealistic. I still, however, accept that it is what happened.
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All I need to know to be able to reinforce the claim that Belthasar planned all those events out, is that Belthasar was warped so many years into the future (even after Lavos was defeated in Chrono Trigger, Belthasar still ended up in 2300AD, but in the 2300AD when the world WAS NOT destroyed).
Think about; if you were warped into the future, let alone warped to new surroundings, you want to find out what's going on there.
When Marty, in Back to the Future, wound up in another time period, what was the first thing he did? He checked the newspaper, and for a date, at that.
Being warped to the future, Belthasar had the opportunity to study all of the history that had gone on before, and thus, plan to rewrite history. The man had a lot of time, and a lot of intellect. All three factors coupled together, is what made it possible.
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Yes, but Information over Zeal and Lavos was scarse. Heck, they probably knew nothing of Lavos except possibly his structure. The only true report was the Lithosphere one in a dead timeline.
And how the hell could Belthaesar know that the Reptite dimension would be pulled in, or Schala would activate the magnetic storm.
Though Belthasar probably did plan alot of it, I bet that he took big gambles. Had the Earth not counterbalanced Chronopolis with Dinopolis, there would be no Chrono Cross.
And Belthasar obviousally probably didn't know about Kid or her existance until he met her. It may be called Project Kid, but we don't know when the name could have been made. Maybe after the first time that Serge died, he needed Kid to help Serge. But before that, He probably knew. Might have been doing the plan like in 10,000BC thanks to the time crash.
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Alright, I'm going to need you to explain a few things to me, I need some things cleared up.
Yes, but Information over Zeal and Lavos was scarse. Heck, they probably knew nothing of Lavos except possibly his structure. The only true report was the Lithosphere one in a dead timeline.
Belthasar didn't need information about Zeal, because he was FROM Zeal. After all, if you look up into the sky and see no floating islands, I think he could've rationally assumed that Zeal was destroyed, especially after looking around at the ruined world of 2300AD.
And then, there were still news or surveillance footage of Lavos destroying the world.
So yeah, my point is, he didn't need a lot of information to go on. But, you may be correct when you say Belthasar took a bunch of big gambles.
And how the hell could Belthaesar know that the Reptite dimension would be pulled in, or Schala would activate the magnetic storm.
Wait, why did Schala activate a magnetic storm? Was that the storm that led Serge to the Frozen Flame? Did Schala lead Serge to the Frozen Flame because she knew it would cure him...? And correct me if I'm wrong, but Schala created that storm while she was in the Time Devourer?
Though Belthasar probably did plan alot of it, I bet that he took big gambles. Had the Earth not counterbalanced Chronopolis with Dinopolis, there would be no Chrono Cross.
I've one question for you here: why would Dinopolis serve as a counterbalance to Chronopolis?
And Belthasar obviousally probably didn't know about Kid or her existance until he met her. It may be called Project Kid, but we don't know when the name could have been made. Maybe after the first time that Serge died, he needed Kid to help Serge. But before that, He probably knew. Might have been doing the plan like in 10,000BC thanks to the time crash.
Wait, I thought Belthasar was responsible for Project Kid? And what was even the purpose of Project Kid, other than creating Kid? For what purpose was Kid even created for?
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Rabid Joe, you were saying that you agree with a guy who says that the idea that Belthasar planned out CC is BS.
On the contraire, I'm saying that he supposedly did - which is why I call BS. All accounted for, it's plain impossible for him to have prepared and planned out ten millenia worth of history, and a bevy of other impossiblities that's simply beyond the reach of a being that's not even a deity.
Thats where I come from, thats why I think hes a nut case.
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On the contraire, I'm saying that he supposedly did - which is why I call BS. All accounted for, it's plain impossible for him to have prepared and planned out ten millenia worth of history, and a bevy of other impossiblities that's simply beyond the reach of a being that's not even a deity. Hell, he makes Lavos, Earth, FATE and the Dragon Gods seem like frightened pussy cats before his half-assed uber-omniscience.
Prophet:
Oh, my name is
Belthasar...
Belthasar:
In the ancient, magical
Kingom of Zeal, I was known
as a sage of reason...
Belthasar:
Well, that was up until the
Queen of Zeal attempted to
harness the power of Lavos...
Let's just say, things got out
of control and Lavos created a
dimensional vortex that threw
me far into the future!
Belthasar:
There, I seized the opportunity
to study the science of the
future...
I was then able to apply to that
the knowledge I brought from my
own era, including magic, which
was long lost in the future.
Anyway, this led me to make
huge progress in the research
of time.
Belthasar:
Well, that research led to
the creation of Chronopolis
and to the Time Crash...
You might think I really
blew it, but perhaps it
was really my finest hour!
Ho-ho-hoh...
[Lucca]
And now, about '"Project Kid"'...
the time control project
Belthasar planned out.
The whole project existed to
lead you to this one, special
point in time!
The founding of Chronopolis,
the Time Crash, and the
battle between FATE and
the Dragon Gods...
It was all coordinated so
that you would get your
hands on the Chrono Cross
and come to this place!
Of course, Kid was not to
know anything about this
whole plan until later,
when all this will finish.
Further in the future, Kid
is meant to travel back ten
years in time from now to
save Serge from drowning.
And then, Kid was also
meant to call Serge into the
other world as he spoke with
Leena here on Opassa Beach!
You're our last hope...
Our final chance...
Only you, who came into
contact with Schala, and
Kid, Schala's clone-
daughter, can do it!
In the darkness that exists
on the other side of time,
Schala has been integrated
with the Devourer of Time!
Please, Serge!
Release Princess Schala
from the binds of that
monster and her own hatred!
Show us, the life-forms
that exist on this planet,
what our new future will
be...
According to the script, Belthasar really did plan Project Kid in its entirety. However, Chrono Cross doesn't explain how Belthasar was able to accomplish this. He did create the FATE supercomputer, which was a match for the Reptites' Dragon God, but those entities cannot compare to the power of Lavos, the Planet or the Time Devourer.
My only explanation is the Planet, in accordance with Schala, was the true author of Project Kid. Belthasar, as the "prophet of time," acted on the Planet's instruction. We know that the Planet pulled Dinopolis across time and space on its own initiative and only it would be capable of predicting Lavos' actions in order to precipitate the Time Crash. Schala fullfilled the function of manipulating the Time Devourer.
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I just started my second playthrough of Chrono Cross. Immediately, I began to wonder just how in hell Belthasar was able to predict that Serge would wander down to Opassa Beach in order to be whisked away to Another World. Granted, Belthasar's plan probably would have worked had Serge showed up at the beach a few hours earlier or later. But how could Belthasar have predicted that Serge would end up at Opassa Beach exactly ten years, give or take a few hours, after the point at which the dimension split in two?
I apologize if my question has a truly simple answer. However, as noted, I have only played the game once and the details of Belthasar's plan still escape me.
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I just started my second playthrough of Chrono Cross. Immediately, I began to wonder just how in hell Belthasar was able to predict that Serge would wander down to Opassa Beach in order to be whisked away to Another World. Granted, Belthasar's plan probably would have worked had Serge showed up at the beach a few hours earlier or later. But how could Belthasar have predicted that Serge would end up at Opassa Beach exactly ten years, give or take a few hours, after the point at which the dimension split in two?
I apologize if my question has a truly simple answer. However, as noted, I have only played the game once and the details of Belthasar's plan still escape me.
Serge probably often goes there with Leena. Belthasar just had to tell Kid to "call" him (for some reason ten years after the split).
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I just wanted to point out that I started this thread before Dark Saint wrote this...
On the contraire, I'm saying that he supposedly did - which is why I call BS. All accounted for, it's plain impossible for him to have prepared and planned out ten millenia worth of history, and a bevy of other impossiblities that's simply beyond the reach of a being that's not even a deity. Hell, he makes Lavos, Earth, FATE and the Dragon Gods seem like frightened pussy cats before his half-assed uber-omniscience.
And that I still haven't been back for a rebuttle or anything...so...yeah, I was basing it on the post where DS says that the theory is BS, not that post where DS basically kind of tries to weasle out of it by saying that Belthasar only 'supposedly' planned it out...
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Alright, I'm going to need you to explain a few things to me, I need some things cleared up.
Yes, but Information over Zeal and Lavos was scarse. Heck, they probably knew nothing of Lavos except possibly his structure. The only true report was the Lithosphere one in a dead timeline.
Belthasar didn't need information about Zeal, because he was FROM Zeal. After all, if you look up into the sky and see no floating islands, I think he could've rationally assumed that Zeal was destroyed, especially after looking around at the ruined world of 2300AD.
And then, there were still news or surveillance footage of Lavos destroying the world.
So yeah, my point is, he didn't need a lot of information to go on. But, you may be correct when you say Belthasar took a bunch of big gambles.
And how the hell could Belthaesar know that the Reptite dimension would be pulled in, or Schala would activate the magnetic storm.
Wait, why did Schala activate a magnetic storm? Was that the storm that led Serge to the Frozen Flame? Did Schala lead Serge to the Frozen Flame because she knew it would cure him...? And correct me if I'm wrong, but Schala created that storm while she was in the Time Devourer?
Though Belthasar probably did plan alot of it, I bet that he took big gambles. Had the Earth not counterbalanced Chronopolis with Dinopolis, there would be no Chrono Cross.
I've one question for you here: why would Dinopolis serve as a counterbalance to Chronopolis?
And Belthasar obviousally probably didn't know about Kid or her existance until he met her. It may be called Project Kid, but we don't know when the name could have been made. Maybe after the first time that Serge died, he needed Kid to help Serge. But before that, He probably knew. Might have been doing the plan like in 10,000BC thanks to the time crash.
Wait, I thought Belthasar was responsible for Project Kid? And what was even the purpose of Project Kid, other than creating Kid? For what purpose was Kid even created for?
When I said information about Zeal, I kind of ment what people would know. Zeal is simply a myth in their time, and it seems that Belthasar didn't reveal to anyone who or where he was from in 2300AD. Also, Belthasar did miss out alot of parts like the Black Omen.
I don't think there was any footage of Lavos destroying the world, since he was eradicated before he could deal the final blow. Though, I do believe that they got footage of Lavos appearing from under the ground.
The Planet needed Dinopolis as a counter balance to Chronopolis because if Chronopolis people had gone out to the main land, then the future would be even more advance. Basically, your mixing highly advanced people with people who are yet to be advanced, and by interbreeding, you would change who is born and not. Obviousally, FATE tried it's best to stop this. But the Planet also didn't want FATE to fully change El Nido. Dinopolis was sucked in and had a war vs FATE. Then somewhere in between, FATE sealed the Dragon Gods, and the dragonians and humans became friends.
Schala activated the storm for a few reasons, a few being theories. Game evidance suggests that Schala indeed heard Serge's crying from his wound and decided to send him to Chronopolis, which was down thanks to the magnetic storm, so that he would be healed. And when he touched the FF, he instantly became the arbiter and the prometheus circut kicked in, blocking FATE from accessing the FF. Another reason would have been to send Kid out from the DBT. Since Schala used the last of her compassion to create Kid and send her goodness with her, Schala's only chance would probably be to send her whilst Schala had the link between dimensions open. I personally think that in a way now, Kid may be from another time line, the original possibly. For more info, ask me on my theory >.>
Kid's whole existance is very peculiar. I have no idea how Belthasar would know that Kid would be created, hence spawning the idea that Belthasar only added Kid into the project after he found out she existed. Since Serge was healed, then killed. Kid grew up. And then she encountered Belthasar who gave her the Neo Epoch and made her save Serge. But then it seems as if her memory of Belthasar has been erased Oo Anyway, I don't think Kid knows that she is being used, just like FATE doesn't know, Serge etc. and even Schala to a degree was used.
@Gray
"Lavos created a
dimensional vortex that threw
me far into the future!"
How much WORD PLAY IS THERE IN CHRONO CROSS!! WTF! Dimensional Vortex! How the hell can a dimensional vortex send you into the future when it's not a time vortex. WTF. Am I missing something >.> Basically, this makes it seem as if The original time line is a dimension of its own, and the one made by Crono is a new dimension aswell.
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When I said information about Zeal, I kind of ment what people would know. Zeal is simply a myth in their time, and it seems that Belthasar didn't reveal to anyone who or where he was from in 2300AD. Also, Belthasar did miss out alot of parts like the Black Omen.
WELL, the first time Crono & Co go to 2300AD, the Black Omen ISN'T there. When they visited the Ocean Palace, they changed history that resulted in the Ocean Palace arising from the depths as the Black Omen.
I don't think there was any footage of Lavos destroying the world, since he was eradicated before he could deal the final blow. Though, I do believe that they got footage of Lavos appearing from under the ground.
WELL, there was that footage of Lavos destroying the world on the computer in Arris Dome in 2300AD. Belthasar probably could've accessed that same information from his own computer in the Keeper's Dome if that footage was available on das intarweb, or if the computers were linked via some kind of network.
The Planet needed Dinopolis as a counter balance to Chronopolis because if Chronopolis people had gone out to the main land, then the future would be even more advance. Basically, your mixing highly advanced people with people who are yet to be advanced, and by interbreeding, you would change who is born and not. Obviousally, FATE tried it's best to stop this. But the Planet also didn't want FATE to fully change El Nido. Dinopolis was sucked in and had a war vs FATE. Then somewhere in between, FATE sealed the Dragon Gods, and the dragonians and humans became friends..
RIGHT. FATE's purpose was to preserve the original timeline even after Chronopolis was sent back in time. I remember, now.
HOWEVER, I thought the Dragonians and Humans went into war with each other, and the Dragonians lost, henceforth the Dragonians being more or less absent in El Nido, leaving only ruins of their civilization?
Schala activated the storm for a few reasons, a few being theories. Game evidance suggests that Schala indeed heard Serge's crying from his wound and decided to send him to Chronopolis, which was down thanks to the magnetic storm, so that he would be healed. And when he touched the FF, he instantly became the arbiter and the prometheus circut kicked in, blocking FATE from accessing the FF. Another reason would have been to send Kid out from the DBT. Since Schala used the last of her compassion to create Kid and send her goodness with her, Schala's only chance would probably be to send her whilst Schala had the link between dimensions open. I personally think that in a way now, Kid may be from another time line, the original possibly. For more info, ask me on my theory >.>.
What I don't understand is, why would Serge's contact with the Frozen Flame block FATE off from it? What does the Frozen Flame have to do in relation to FATE? It's more than simply a power source, is it not?
In addition, what's this "Arbiter" I keep hearing about?
Also, are you saying that Schala, for lack of a better phrase, "created" Kid from within the Time Devourer?
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I just started my second playthrough of Chrono Cross. Immediately, I began to wonder just how in hell Belthasar was able to predict that Serge would wander down to Opassa Beach in order to be whisked away to Another World. Granted, Belthasar's plan probably would have worked had Serge showed up at the beach a few hours earlier or later. But how could Belthasar have predicted that Serge would end up at Opassa Beach exactly ten years, give or take a few hours, after the point at which the dimension split in two?
I apologize if my question has a truly simple answer. However, as noted, I have only played the game once and the details of Belthasar's plan still escape me.
Serge probably often goes there with Leena. Belthasar just had to tell Kid to "call" him (for some reason ten years after the split).
That makes no sense. When Belthasar was in his planning stage, Serge had died at 7 years old. There is no way Belthasar could predict what Serge and Leena's behavior would be like if Serge had lived ten years longer.
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Everyone has the ability to be 'controlled'. Let's say the entity did pull Marle in the DBT or w/e to ignite the events of CT. Had Marle decided not to stand in that part of the room, the entity wouldn't have pulled her out of the other side of the room. Had Crono decided to rescure Leene upon arriving without the need for Lucca's 'fake' explanation, the entity probably wouldn't have pulled her into the DBT.
I used the term 'decided' lightly, because, in reality, one person's decisions force other people to make certain decisiosn which force other people to make certain decisions, and, in the end, the first person was really forced into making decisions by other people's decisions, which were forced by other people's decisions, and so on. This is my concept of fate...
Belthasar apparently had FATE as a supercomputer. Now that I think about it, the name 'FATE' could've been created for a job of predicting people's actions and decisions, and thus fate before FATE had the purpose of controlling fate to keep the human race alive.
So, my interpretation is that Belthasar could use FATE to simulate his actions; he could see what would happen if he let the flame pull Chronopolis back in time instead of doing something to counteract it (or did he send it back without the flame?), and that the planet would respond, and so on...
Even if he couldn't use FATE to predict his actions, he could still use the Neo-Epoch to change 'tweak' history as some people have mentioned.
Also, I'd like to clear up something. Belthasar would NOT have any footage of the apocalypse. He might have footage of Lavos popping out of the ground and Crono and co. running inside the shell... And then I assume the shell would just sit there, since it wasn't in the pocket dimension, or something. But Belthasar wouldn't have any access to the footage from the ruined future. The OLD Belthasar--the Belthasar that appears in 2300AD in the ruined future--would have access to the footage. The Belthasar in CC is NOT the same Belthasar as the Nu in CT. It kind of disappoints me, though I guess I can't really expect it of a game from 10 years ago, but if you go to Belthasar or his Nu or w/e after the Ocean Palace disaster, there should be SOME difference because, as far as I remember, he was involved in it, witnessed it, or something.
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I just started my second playthrough of Chrono Cross. Immediately, I began to wonder just how in hell Belthasar was able to predict that Serge would wander down to Opassa Beach in order to be whisked away to Another World. Granted, Belthasar's plan probably would have worked had Serge showed up at the beach a few hours earlier or later. But how could Belthasar have predicted that Serge would end up at Opassa Beach exactly ten years, give or take a few hours, after the point at which the dimension split in two?
I apologize if my question has a truly simple answer. However, as noted, I have only played the game once and the details of Belthasar's plan still escape me.
Serge probably often goes there with Leena. Belthasar just had to tell Kid to "call" him (for some reason ten years after the split).
That makes no sense. When Belthasar was in his planning stage, Serge had died at 7 years old. There is no way Belthasar could predict what Serge and Leena's behavior would be like if Serge had lived ten years longer.
Belthasar didn't have to know that it would be exactly ten years later, but he knew for sure that Serge and Leena would be there one day. Leena states that Serge and she used to sit there at Opassa Beach to talk when they were kids, and they even made some kind of important promise there... Moreover, if Belthasar doesn't feel like waiting, all he would have to do is programming a Record of FATE to force Leena to bring Serge there.
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Moreover, if Belthasar doesn't feel like waiting, all he would have to do is programming a Record of FATE to force Leena to bring Serge there.
Except the Records don't work in Home World.
WELL, there was that footage of Lavos destroying the world on the computer in Arris Dome in 2300AD. Belthasar probably could've accessed that same information from his own computer in the Keeper's Dome if that footage was available on das intarweb, or if the computers were linked via some kind of network.
Wrong future.
HOWEVER, I thought the Dragonians and Humans went into war with each other, and the Dragonians lost, henceforth the Dragonians being more or less absent in El Nido, leaving only ruins of their civilization?
No, they were friends for a while. The Dragonians died out naturally (or maybe FATE had a hand in it, who knows?)
What I don't understand is, why would Serge's contact with the Frozen Flame block FATE off from it? What does the Frozen Flame have to do in relation to FATE? It's more than simply a power source, is it not?
In addition, what's this "Arbiter" I keep hearing about?
You said you played CC three times, and you're asking these questions? Whatever. The Prometheus Circuit was a safeguard for the Frozen Flame. It made it so that only the Arbiter could touch it. (The Arbiter being the one individual who gains and controls the Frozen Flame's powers upon touching it.) When FATE had a power failure during the storm, the Frozen Flame "registered" it as dead until it rebooted. But by then, it was too late. Serge became the Arbiter, locking FATE out. The Frozen Flame acts as FATE's powersource. It also needs to safeguard it to make sure it doesn't change history.
Also, are you saying that Schala, for lack of a better phrase, "created" Kid from within the Time Devourer?
yup.
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Moreover, if Belthasar doesn't feel like waiting, all he would have to do is programming a Record of FATE to force Leena to bring Serge there.
Except the Records don't work in Home World.
Oh, then he had to wait ten whole years.
No, they were friends for a while. The Dragonians died out naturally (or maybe FATE had a hand in it, who knows?)
Actually, the Dragonians lived with the El Nido humans for quite some time, their extinction began some time after the Porreans started to colonize the archipelago (900 or 920 AD).
In addition, what's this "Arbiter" I keep hearing about?
Some people think that the "Arbiter of Time" is the One that the Frozen Flame has chosen (this person is Serge, it can't be anyone else), and some others think that the "Arbiter of Time" is simply the person that the Prometheus Circuit "registered" and granted exclusive access to the Frozen Flame room in Chronopolis (it appeared to be Serge but maybe it could have been anyone).
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Wait, the records don't work in Home? Since when?
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Wait, the records don't work in Home? Since when?
I believe he means that FATE has no active role in Home World and can't control what the people do.
Then again, when we talk to the people in Arni Village of Home World, in Chief Radius's hut, the 3 people lined up in front of the record tell us that FATE tells them what to do.
...quite a conundrum.
I believe FATE actually controls both timelines from the one timelines.
It's a transdimensional computer!
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HOWEVER, I thought the Dragonians and Humans went into war with each other, and the Dragonians lost, henceforth the Dragonians being more or less absent in El Nido, leaving only ruins of their civilization?
No, they were friends for a while. The Dragonians died out naturally (or maybe FATE had a hand in it, who knows?)
The Humans and Dragonians were friends? What evidence do we have of this? And if that was really the case, why then did their robots in Fort Dragonia attack you if the Dragonians believed that Humanity was their friend? Because their robots didn't have very advanced AI and were just programmed to attack intruders?
What I don't understand is, why would Serge's contact with the Frozen Flame block FATE off from it? What does the Frozen Flame have to do in relation to FATE? It's more than simply a power source, is it not? In addition, what's this "Arbiter" I keep hearing about?
You said you played CC three times, and you're asking these questions?
Thanks for bearing with me. ^^; My memory's still quite rusty.
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Belthasar apparently had FATE as a supercomputer. Now that I think about it, the name 'FATE' could've been created for a job of predicting people's actions and decisions, and thus fate before FATE had the purpose of controlling fate to keep the human race alive.
So, my interpretation is that Belthasar could use FATE to simulate his actions; he could see what would happen if he let the flame pull Chronopolis back in time instead of doing something to counteract it (or did he send it back without the flame?), and that the planet would respond, and so on...
Even if he couldn't use FATE to predict his actions, he could still use the Neo-Epoch to change 'tweak' history as some people have mentioned.
It is remotely possible that Belthasar could use the FATE supercomputer to predict 10,000 years of human history with 100% accuracy. FATE also has some rudimentary understanding of the Frozen Flame and succeeded in conquering the Dragon God supercomputer. But I do not believe that FATE is able to comprehend, let alone manipulate, the transcendent (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?r=2&q=transcendent), multidimensional intelligences of Lavos, the Time Devourer, or the Planet.
It is possible that Belthasar used the Neo-Epoch to tweak history, but he only mentions time traveling to 1020 AD to check on the success of Project Kid.
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@ Zenning - It's stated in the game that the Dragonians and Humans later became well nuteral. Like how the Demi-Humans (Some thought to be descendants of Dragonians) are a bit hostile to the humans. Fort Dragonia was built especially for the Dragonians to do their religious rituals and sacrafices. The Robots there are probably there to keep intruders out.
@Gray -
If Belthasar had told or even asked FATE about anything to do with the 10,000 years, then FATE would have already known what Belthasar was up to, and using FATE. FATE is like destined to die by the hands of Serge. IF Belthasar planned this and FATE helped, then FATE would know. Besides the point that FATE is aware of itself and basically is human in thought power, just not body like.
I don't remember it saying anywhere that Belthasar used FATE to tell him the outline of time. Simply to make sure that NO ONE INTERFERED with El Nido and so no one from El Nido would go to Zenan and make sure that FATE is never created. And by that last statement, it seems Belthasar guesses that it could happen, which means he's not truely psychic but used simple logic.
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If Belthasar had told or even asked FATE about anything to do with the 10,000 years, then FATE would have already known what Belthasar was up to, and using FATE. FATE is like destined to die by the hands of Serge. IF Belthasar planned this and FATE helped, then FATE would know. Besides the point that FATE is aware of itself and basically is human in thought power, just not body like.
I don't remember it saying anywhere that Belthasar used FATE to tell him the outline of time. Simply to make sure that NO ONE INTERFERED with El Nido and so no one from El Nido would go to Zenan and make sure that FATE is never created. And by that last statement, it seems Belthasar guesses that it could happen, which means he's not truely psychic but used simple logic.
Belthasar designed and built FATE. Could not Belthasar have hidden FATE's true mission from its conscious awareness? A human being is conscious, but it is not aware of the inner workings of its mind. The Prometheus Circuit is part of FATE, but it is hidden from FATE's consciousness.
FATE may also have been aware of Project Kid in its entirety, and knowingly fullfilled its mission as planned by Belthasar. Just because FATE acted like a renegade computer, doesn't actually mean it was one.
The plot of Chrono Cross is composed of wheels within wheels.
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Originally posted by V_Translanka
Okay, over at Chrono Shock, someone just told me that they don't believe that, and in fact think that the idea is complete BS, Belthasar planned out the events of CC...
Wow. I never thought you'd be so quick to the gun to jump to conclusions and seek help before even trying to understand what I wrote. But hey, let's try again now, slower this time: "I no say he no do it - I say it should have been impossible for him to do it."
And as for the character development bit, I'd rather ask both you and Lord J esque to discuss this with me at Chrono Shock, so to not mix up all the - well, subjects in just this thread. Lord J esque, feel free to repost your initial post in this thread over at the CS forum by copy/pasting it, if you will of course.
Originally posted by Rabid Joe
It's really pretty much impossible to have planned everything out in this way, manipulating all those god-like entities (The Planet, Fate, Time Devourer, The Dragon Gods). It requires a hefty amount of suspension of disbelief, and really, I think it was just a dumb plot twist.
Which was my precise, overlooked point at CS.
Originally posted by Sentenal
Hes a nut case. Belthasar didn't plan out the exact events, he made an outline that would eventually reach his goal. That is explicit.
Right. So, moving on to actual facts, let's dig in:
In CC, we eventually learn and are supposed to believe that all of the events that take place throughout CC, as well as another 10,000 years of human history, were predicted and planned out by ONE man – Belthasar.
So in essence, this would imply that he’s so amazingly smart and elite, that he could predict the future actions of not one, not two, but three different deities —Lavos, Earth and the Time Devourer (and Schala, if you want to count her as a deity)— and plan out ten millenia worth of history to his convenience, only so that one insignificant child could get his hands on the Chrono Cross – which, by the way, didn’t even exist to begin with, so we’re also expected to digest that he even planned out its very creation (as in, something that had no chances of existing, just popped up in his head one day and voila!, ze CC waz made).
It’s one thing to be a genius; it’s a whole different thing to be near omniscient. A bevy of the things he “planned out” were simply impossible. Take, for instance, the fact that he had absolutely no authority in Home World, where at least six years of major events took place - therefore figuring out the 'patterns' there and then merging them to his plans simply isn’t possible. Yet according to the “Time Crash”, he supposedly predicted things that were completely out of his very timeline, beyond all chances of his learning about them for them to even be a part of his "grand plan".
Pfft, what a load of (yes, I repeat) BS.
Originally posted by ZeaLitY
Those are the big points; easy enough to plan that when you have the greatest supercomputer ever created at your disposal.
Nay, you're wrong. He didn't have the "greatest supercomputer" at his disposal. It's made explicitly clear that he only laid the foundations for the time research facility known as Chronopolis with his own Time Research Laboratory. Yet he NEVER got to use his prized super-computer, FATE, because he disappeared sometime around 2,300 A.D., whereas FATE wasn't completed --through the reparation, alteration and reprogramming of the old Mother Brain-- until 2,400 A.D.
Originally posted by Sentenal
What Zeality said. I personally think he took a gamble with a few events. But its explicit in the game that Belthasar DID plan out the events, arguing otherwise is absurd.
Dude, seriously, you've missed the point so many times already that it's getting annoying. I never said that he "didn't", but rather that the idea that we as gamers are supposed to buy into the BS of his planification of everything is absolutely preposteruous, because of everything that said plans represent or imply.
Originally posted by Chrono '99
Moreover, he might not even have needed to predict some of the events. With his Neo-Epoch, he could just have change time, go to the future to see what are the consequences, then go back to the past and change some other details, etc.
If memory serves me right, it was explained in the very game that the Neo-Epoch could only be used once - thus the 'to and fro' travels are a no-no.
Originally posted by Rabid Joe
Yes, I know that in the game that Belthasar planned everything. I just happen to think that it was a stupid move on the story writer's part.
As I think also, hence my arguments.
Originally posted by Zenning
Being warped to the future, Belthasar had the opportunity to study all of the history that had gone on before, and thus, plan to rewrite history. The man had a lot of time, and a lot of intellect. All three factors coupled together, is what made it possible.
Yet even taking only that much into consideration, it's still only one timeline. What about the rest that are crucial to his plans?
Originally posted by V_Translanka
And that I still haven't been back for a rebuttle or anything...so...yeah, I was basing it on the post where DS says that the theory is BS, not that post where DS basically kind of tries to weasle out of it by saying that Belthasar only 'supposedly' planned it out...
I didn't try to weasle out of anything. Don't try to save face of your mistakes - it's very puerile of you to do so, especially behind my back as if believing that I wouldn't follow the link to this site that I believe you gave me.
And as proof that I wasn't "weasling out of it", I can easily offer links to other sites in which I've argued the exact same point with different people, who are way more responsible and mature than you've proven yourself to be. Hell, I dare you to ask for the links - or would you rather disappear from me again?
Now to respond to the three following all at once...
Originally posted by Shadow_Dragon
Belthasar apparently had FATE as a supercomputer. Now that I think about it, the name 'FATE' could've been created for a job of predicting people's actions and decisions, and thus fate before FATE had the purpose of controlling fate to keep the human race alive.
So, my interpretation is that Belthasar could use FATE to simulate his actions; he could see what would happen if he let the flame pull Chronopolis back in time instead of doing something to counteract it (or did he send it back without the flame?), and that the planet would respond, and so on...
Even if he couldn't use FATE to predict his actions, he could still use the Neo-Epoch to change 'tweak' history as some people have mentioned.
Originally posted by GreyLansman
It is remotely possible that Belthasar could use the FATE supercomputer to predict 10,000 years of human history with 100% accuracy. FATE also has some rudimentary understanding of the Frozen Flame and succeeded in conquering the Dragon God supercomputer. But I do not believe that FATE is able to comprehend, let alone manipulate, the transcendent, multidimensional intelligences of Lavos, the Time Devourer, or the Planet.
It is possible that Belthasar used the Neo-Epoch to tweak history, but he only mentions time traveling to 1020 AD to check on the success of Project Kid.
Belthasar designed and built FATE. Could not Belthasar have hidden FATE's true mission from its conscious awareness? A human being is conscious, but it is not aware of the inner workings of its mind. The Prometheus Circuit is part of FATE, but it is hidden from FATE's consciousness.
FATE may also have been aware of Project Kid in its entirety, and knowingly fullfilled its mission as planned by Belthasar.
Nope, Belthasar didn't have FATE, because as I said somewhere above, it was completed about 100 years after he disappeared in the future.
And FATE's main purpose in El Nido --which was its entire reach-- was just to influence people's actions, but not entirely control them.
As for the Neo-Epoch, I reiterate that it is said that he could only use it once, for whatever reason.
Just because FATE acted like a renegade computer, doesn't actually mean it was one.
I agree; it eventually turns out that FATE was actually on the human's side, in its own way.
And with that, I defend myself, even though V-Translanka didn't have the marbles to give me said chance, or face me directly. Oh and, cool place by the way.
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What other forums have you argued this at? I'd like to know, as I maintain a list of the entire Chrono community for my own machinations.
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Originally posted by ZeaLitY
What other forums have you argued this at? I'd like to know, as I maintain a list of the entire Chrono community for my own machinations.
In this thread at AvalancheOnline (http://www.avalancheonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13477&page=1&pp=15) is where I most recently --over the span of about 8 months ago to the present point in time-- argued some of the points discussed in this very thread. At AvalancheOnline I go under the username Executioner, as evinced in this other thread (http://www.avalancheonline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=246731&postcount=26) in the same forums.
And also all over AllRPG (http://allrpg.com), where I've found the most knowledgable and wittiest Chrono series debaters (such as King Zeal, LagDragon, Ice/Dreamless, TD, King Chrono, etc.), and where I learned most of what I know today. The group mentioned in the parenthesis was even called, at one point, the CSNP - Chrono Series Newbie Patrol, and they all gave their best since the very release of CC to analyze, research and discuss all of its elements, be it its mechanics, technical aspects, plot, characters, and so on.
I've also argued at other sites like PGNx.net, Legacy Nexus/Comic Legacy, and so on - Dark Saint and Fear being two of my handles.
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Can't Belthasar of called up his homie Gaspar? >_> That would solve everything.
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If Schala actually fell into a time-portal in CT and appeared in 1007 or w/e, it's possible she came out and left some kind of mark for Belthasar to notice in the future and recognize as Schala's doing, just as he could probably recognize that the electrical storm was her doing. However, Schala's creating the electrical storm was a result of the Time Crash, so Belthasar in 2300 woud only know about Schala's possibly leaving a mark when she popped up in 1007 without any person like Serge to make an electrical storm for, but Belthasar in Viper's Manor would recognize what happened, but he wouldn't really need to recognize it since he recognized Schala's original 'scar' in time and altered time so that she'd save serge.
Ok, so I was wrong about using FATE as a super-computer. If someone who knows nothing about human nature throws unleashes a bomb in USA, they'd have no clue that the US would most definitely retaliate (they'd probably bomb the middle east, but that's another topic, and no, I'm not saying that as a bashing of Bush since the majority of citizens would probably want it). Now, someone who has has studied history and knows how humans react will realize what the consequences would be. Now, if it's possible to predict the acts of a country or nation, how much different is it to predict the acts of Lavos, the entity, and Schala? I'd understand why 'manipulating' (I use the term lightly because every action 'manipulates' someone else into his/her actions) the Time Devourer would be a bit too complicated, since it's supposedly a multi-dimensional being, but, as far as I remember, the TD doesn't actually do anything to affect any timeline and just sits there waiting to be able to devour stuff. Now, the dragon gods and stuff act as agents of the TD, but they're not multi-dimensional...
It does seem a bit far-fetched to be able to predict 10,000 years of history, but Belthasar is the guru of time for a reason. Do you think someone capable of building 2 time machines has the same mental capacity that we're used to? For all we know, predicting 10,000 years of history could be simple. As far as I can imagine, predicitng 10,000 years of history must be insanely easier than building a time-machine.
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Hah! I'm going to search for their topics, provided they still exist. I hope they do, since it would be a pity for the "most knowledgable and witty" Chrono series theorists to have their work wasted by forum pruning. Oh, this will be excellent. The Compendium was founded upon analysis. Hopefully, if they still exist, they will come here. The knuckles have been cracked.
By the way, I noticed in that other thread that you remarked Chrono Cross was full of plot holes. If you still hold that view, would you care to share some? Chrono'99, stand by with the couple minor ones you've found until a response is given.
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I've found one post called "Chrono Connections," but that seems to be it for the entire RPG Discussion forum. Don't tell me my worries about pruning are true!
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Belthasar was the Guru of REASON, not time.
Okay, I think I understand what you were saying now. You were saying that you think the idea that Belthasar being able to do that would be impossible. Well, it is far-fetched. So is the use of magic, and time traveling. But its part of the series. I took it as you didn't believe that Belthasar didn't do it at all.
And I'm going to track down the quote about the Neo-Epoch, because I don't remmber that.
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From my intial search, the only place in the Script where I found "Neo Epoch", was this:
I created a compact time machine that I dubbed the "Neo Epoch." I used it to time warp to this age to learn of Chronopolis and FATE's plans, and to see how things were turning out.
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There are a few others, but they don't reveal anything else:
Luccia:
Vot is dis?
The technology is amazing...
It is definitely not
of dis world.
Luccia:
Actually...
I have heard one of my
colleagues talking about
something very
similar to dis.
About a vehicle dat can
travel through time.
If dat is true, den
dat means someone from
the past or future may be
here, in the present.
Member:
What is this thing?
How did it end up in here?
Member:
This is one strange ship...
Could it belong to that old man?
Starky:
Woooooow! Amaazing!
It still does not measure
up to our technology, thoough.
Starky:
Is this an
antiprooton driive?
A deevice that maakes
tiime travel possible?
It can't bee...
EEven our technology
hasn't advanced this far...
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From my intial search, the only place in the Script where I found "Neo Epoch", was this:
I created a compact time machine that I dubbed the "Neo Epoch." I used it to time warp to this age to learn of Chronopolis and FATE's plans, and to see how things were turning out.
Yes, and it doesn't say anything about being one-way, either, or about Kid using it, for that matter.
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Oops... I always got confused between Gaspar and Belthasar since, for the longest time, I thought Belthasar was the guru of time since he build the Epoch... My mistake.. Anyway, he was a guru for a reason. <_<
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There's a reason he's the guru of Reason :shock:
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Oops... I always got confused between Gaspar and Belthasar since, for the longest time, I thought Belthasar was the guru of time since he build the Epoch... My mistake.. Anyway, he was a guru for a reason. <_<
Belthasar in CC does claim he is the "Prophet of Time" though.
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Well, if he came from the future, he does have a legitmate claim to "prophet of time." Simplar reason of how Magus claimed he was a Prophet in Zeal.
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He's right about the Neo Epoch. It was Kid who used it to go back to 1010. What the hell did Belthasar use Oo
NEW STARTALING INFO!!!!!
OMG! It's apparent that Schala did not fall into a Dimensional Vortex or whatever, but acctually fell through a time portal! Apparetly, as she was falling through time, she heard Serge and when she reached 1007AD as she was falling, cast her hand out and the magnetic storm was unleashed that caused FATE and Chronopolis to lose their power and guided Serge and Wazuki and Miguel to Chronopolis.
Belthasar could not have known this! There is no way!!!11!!! Then it goes on to say how then later, when she merged with Lavos and he started taking over her mind, Schala used her pendant to clone her body and add her good mind into Kid and sent her out into the dimension.
As it seems, the DBT is indeed like the EoT. You don't need to travel dimensions to get into it.
I wasn't kidding. There, CAPS lock off. I have a saved state at the end of the game and talked to Lucca. Lucca indeed says that Schala fell through a time portal, like a big hole in the ground. As she got deeper, she arrived at around 1007AD and heard Serge and saved him by doing you know what. And after kept falling till she finally landed on Lavos who started fusing with her and corrupting her so she sent out the remaining sanity of herself, Kid.
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Ok, well, let's see the quote...
Also, given that Belthasar quote, I think it's obvious that he is using the Neo Epoch to check up on how his plan is playing out...
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Here we go:
"The true beginning was during the destruction of the ancient Kingdom of Zeal!
As the palace collapsed around her, Princess Schala was sucked into a dimensional vortex along with Lavos Mammon Machine.
Schala and Lavos became unified into one even more powerful entity that would evolve into the Devourer of Time.
Filled with the hatred and sadness of Lavos, half of Schala's mind became set on destroying all of existance.
Yet at the same time, the other half of her mind desired to save the universe and to be rescued herself.
As Schala fell through the time gate in this condition, she heard your crying echoing through time....
This is when her story and yours began to intertwine...
Led by the pitiful crying the young Serge made as the panther demon's poison took hold of him...
Princess Schala trevelled ten thousand years in time to try and make contact with this dimension!This caused a raging magnetic storm that resulted in FATE's system malfunction, which led Serge to the Frozen Flame.
That's right Serge. The sound of you crying touched the heart of Princess Schala.
Before the destructive mind-set could become dominant, she cloned herself and sent her copy into this dimension."
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I...I don't see how that verifies what you said earlier...:?
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Originally posted by ZeaLitY
Hah! I'm going to search for their topics, provided they still exist. I hope they do, since it would be a pity for the "most knowledgable and witty" Chrono series theorists to have their work wasted by forum pruning. Oh, this will be excellent. The Compendium was founded upon analysis. Hopefully, if they still exist, they will come here. The knuckles have been cracked.
They're still there, mostly in the archives - those from version 5.0, I mean; everything from previous versions were, naturally, wiped out.
By the way, I noticed in that other thread that you remarked Chrono Cross was full of plot holes. If you still hold that view, would you care to share some? Chrono'99, stand by with the couple minor ones you've found until a response is given.
Sure thing. I could just copy some from the ones I posted at AvalancheOnline and paste them here, in a new thread. You can create the thread yourself and I'll post ASAP; let me know if you're in.
I've found one post called "Chrono Connections," but that seems to be it for the entire RPG Discussion forum. Don't tell me my worries about pruning are true!
Fortunately, they're not. Check out the Square Enix Archives and the Chrono Series Archives. Don't expect for all of them to include "Chrono" in the title, though.
If you have a hard time finding any good ol' debate threads, let me know and I'll give you a few links to some.
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Put them in this forum, I guess.
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I...I don't see how that verifies what you said earlier...:?
Yes it does.. It seems now that as Schala was falling, she met Lavos on the way and they started merging, and then she heard Serge's crying. So she whilst she was falling, she tryed stopping at around 1007AD where she let the magnetic storm lose to try and help Serge and at that same time, cast Kid into the world.
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Alright then. Here are a few, putting aside the one about Belthasar's omniscience:
▬ Who or what, exactly, is the "Entity" that supposedly held sway over and manipulated just about all the events that took place in the Chrono world?
▬ How was Porre able to overthrow Guardia, in the span of just twenty years?
▬ Kid's oh so special and magical pendant, turns out to be not so special, much less magical. It's supposed to keep Kid from being a victim of lethal injuries or any sort of life-threatening danger by taking her back in time to a safer point in time. Yet it doesn't, ever; not even as much as a little nudge or a spark or anything. She falls off a cliff, get's poisoned, stabbed and apparently brain-washed, and then falls comatose after trying to handle the Frozen Flame.
So really, what the hell was the point of saying it had such powers?
▬ Why on earth did FATE --Lynx, Dark Serge, or however else you wish to call it-- try to drown and thus kill Serge, the arbiter and its only key to reach the Frozen Flame, in 1010 A.D.? It makes absolutely NO sense, and NOTHING is said anywhere which would even attempt to explain such a moronic and contradicting move by FATE.
▬ How in the blue hell did the Earth deity pull back in time a civilization of Reptites (see, Dinopolis) from a dimension that didn’t even exist, as a countermeasure against Chronopolis? Go Earth and its half-assed omnipotence.
I know a couple more, I'm sure, but I have to search my memory a bit.
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Who or what, exactly, is the "Entity" that supposedly held sway over and manipulated just about all the events that took place in the Chrono world?
The Planet
How was Porre able to overthrow Guardia, in the span of just twenty years?
Twenty years is a lot of time to conquer a passive country that could barely fight off a bunch of blue midgets.
Kid's oh so special and magical pendant, turns out to be not so special, much less magical. It's supposed to keep Kid from being a victim of lethal injuries or any sort of life-threatening danger by taking her back in time to a safer point in time. Yet it doesn't, ever; not even as much as a little nudge or a spark or anything. She falls off a cliff, get's poisoned, stabbed and apparently brain-washed, and then falls comatose after trying to handle the Frozen Flame. So really, what the hell was the point of saying it had such powers?
I think I remember reading that the Amulet's power doesn't kick in until after she actually dies, like Tsukasa's pseudo-immortality in .hack//sign.
Why on earth did FATE --Lynx, Dark Serge, or however else you wish to call it-- try to drown and thus kill Serge, the arbiter and its only key to reach the Frozen Flame, in 1010 A.D.? It makes absolutely NO sense, and NOTHING is said anywhere which would even attempt to explain such a moronic and contradicting move by FATE.
This one still puzzles me a bit. Either 1) FATE didn't have full control of Lynx yet and he was absolutely bonkers, or 2) It was a subconscious program Belthasar put in to make sure Project Kid runs smoothly. Who knows?
How in the blue hell did the Earth deity pull back in time a civilization of Reptites (see, Dinopolis) from a dimension that didn’t even exist, as a countermeasure against Chronopolis? Go Earth and its half-assed omnipotence.
The Reptite dimensions DOES exist, so where do you get off saying it doesn't? Also, the Planet should roughly be as powerful as Lavos, so it should be able to do the same trick just fine.
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Lucca says that FATE calculated by itself that Serge would cross the dimensions one day, before he even died. So FATE must have known about Kid and what Kid was going to do. Belthasar is a freak. Since FATE was soloing by itself. FATE does not listen to Belthasar. It does what it wants. Belthasar simply was there to make sure it went all smoothly.
And about Kid's pendant, it says that it only reverses time a bit before any FATAL injuries occur.
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Zaperking, that quote says that Schala is sucked into a dimensional vortex, along w/Lavos & the Mammon Machine, which she thus merged with and that this combination would eventually become the Devourer of Time. But as she was merging and her mind was being corrupted by Lavos (& the Mammon Machine), she heard Serge's crying echoing through time. Now, it doesn't really say anything about her being in any particular time at all because it states that Serge's crying is echoing throughout time...The real question is why was Serge's crying so dominant in time?
Alright then. Here are a few, putting aside the one about Belthasar's omniscience
Uh, ZeaLitY said this forum, not this thread...but...w/e...I guess...
How was Porre able to overthrow Guardia, in the span of just twenty years?
Uh, Elements? I dunno...Lucca did something w/Porre didn't she?
Why on earth did FATE --Lynx, Dark Serge, or however else you wish to call it-- try to drown and thus kill Serge, the arbiter and its only key to reach the Frozen Flame, in 1010 A.D.? It makes absolutely NO sense, and NOTHING is said anywhere which would even attempt to explain such a moronic and contradicting move by FATE.
Does FATE need Serge alive?
How in the blue hell did the Earth deity pull back in time a civilization of Reptites (see, Dinopolis) from a dimension that didn’t even exist, as a countermeasure against Chronopolis? Go Earth and its half-assed omnipotence.
Since the Planet no longer has to contend w/Lavos for it's almighty Planet energy juices, I'm sure that it's extra powerful in CC than it was in CT where it was just dying and making a few temporal portal things here and there....>_>
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.........................
As Schala fell through the time gate in this condition, she heard your crying echoing through time....
Like I said.... Anyway, I think that script must have been jumbled. Lucca keeps talking from one thing to another.
Also, even CT is untrustworthy. In CC it says that the Guru's were sucked into a dimensional vortex and appear in their time zones. So theres alot of word confusion. But im pretty sure the time thing by Lucca is right.
Just imagine Schala standing at the top of a long tube. She jumps into it, and as she is falling, time is passing forward. Somewhere in the middle, she hears the cries of Serge and puts her arms against the tubes sides and slows herself falling and then uses her powers to break a hole in the tube and the magnetic storm happens. :P
Also, You do know that Lavos still pretty much sucked up 64,970,000 years of the Planets energy?
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▬ How was Porre able to overthrow Guardia, in the span of just twenty years?
From CT to CC, there isn't a span of twenty years but really a span of ten thousands and twenty years (1,000 AD to 2,400 AD, then Time Crash, then 7,600 BC to 1,020 AD).
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Well, since Porre only went to El Nido in around 900AD, I think FATE did a horrible job. FATE is supposed to keep people from going back to the mainland. But if Porre got it's power from the elements or whatever, then FATE must have let them go. Either because Porre runs the central regime later... but that would mean that Porre takes over Guardia anyway. It's only 5 years from 1000-1005. And then everything happens normally till 2400AD when the crash happens, and then more shit happens.
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Okay, lets get started:
▬ Who or what, exactly, is the "Entity" that supposedly held sway over and manipulated just about all the events that took place in the Chrono world?
Not a plot hole. Just to let you know where I'm coming from, here it is. Zeality remarked you said CC was full of plot holes, and asked you to post them. You said okay, and then posted these. Us not knowing who the Entity is is NOT a plot hole. A plot hole is something unexplained that contradicts another, explained part of a series or plot.
Most agree it's the Planet.
▬ How was Porre able to overthrow Guardia, in the span of just twenty years?
Kato said that Porre's rise to power was the result of some outside influence. Plus what Chrono'99 said. Plus, not a plot hole, its just something unexplained.
▬ Kid's oh so special and magical pendant, turns out to be not so special, much less magical. It's supposed to keep Kid from being a victim of lethal injuries or any sort of life-threatening danger by taking her back in time to a safer point in time. Yet it doesn't, ever; not even as much as a little nudge or a spark or anything. She falls off a cliff, get's poisoned, stabbed and apparently brain-washed, and then falls comatose after trying to handle the Frozen Flame.
So really, what the hell was the point of saying it had such powers?
It rewinds time after something bad happens. You remmber Kid getting stabbed, and "dieing", yet being alive later in the game, not remmbering getting stabbed? Yeah. Not a plot hole.
▬ Why on earth did FATE --Lynx, Dark Serge, or however else you wish to call it-- try to drown and thus kill Serge, the arbiter and its only key to reach the Frozen Flame, in 1010 A.D.? It makes absolutely NO sense, and NOTHING is said anywhere which would even attempt to explain such a moronic and contradicting move by FATE.
Eh, not too sure on this one myself.
▬ How in the blue hell did the Earth deity pull back in time a civilization of Reptites (see, Dinopolis) from a dimension that didn’t even exist, as a countermeasure against Chronopolis? Go Earth and its half-assed omnipotence.
It DID exist. In another dimension, where Lavos did not fall, and the Reptites won out. Plus what V_T and Aura said.
Most of these are not plot holes.
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Yeah, I agree with Sentenal's definition of plot holes as well. This is often the case with people who purport to have some; they turn out just to be the unexplained stuff, like the Fall of Guardia -- Kato remarked that it's a story for "another time" (Chrono Break?).
The issue with Serge was addressed in the Dead Sea discussions, but somehow didn't make it into the article (I'll have to fix that). The thread is at http://www.chronocompendium.com/Forums/viewtopic.php?t=141
And the conclusions are here:
Dead Sea/FATE Discussion on an AIM Chat #1
GrayLensman, Aitrus, ZeaLitY, Ybrik Metaknight, Radical Dreamer, JustinS1985, Drumguy074
I. Is Serge targeted by FATE due to his obstruction to the Flame or suggested apocalypse caused somehow in the future by his existence?
A. Arbiter Dilemma
'FATE desires to have Serge killed for the express purpose of regaining access to the Frozen Flame.'
Ten years ago, it was Lynx who tried to kill you at this beach. After Prometheus broke the link between FATE and the Flame, FATE tried to eliminate any obstacle that stood in its way!
This possibly alludes to Serge as being such an obstacle, and also explains why he was not targeted earlier by FATE; only after he was designated Arbiter was death sought.
i. Would his death allow access once more to the Flame or prove it harder to be obtained, considering the Arbiter is dead and unable to produce vital signs?
a. Allow access once more
If Arbiter status is granted at death, FATE's motive for killing Serge would be simple and understandable, and also have the effect of allowing Chronopolis to continue existing normally until the future. This would have the interesting effect of allowing Belthasar to restart the Time Crash, and give Serge a second chance at things; perhaps this was a backup to Project Kid. Though the Flame being denied to FATE might be a prerequisite for Serge to complete his mission, if he should die, regaining control of the Flame would serve as a backup plan.
b. Deny access altogether
In light of a, this seems somewhat unlikely, though it is suggested heavily that one must be alive to access the Flame-
Scanner: Analyzing... Please stand by. .........Analysis complete. Fingerprints, retina, and C class DNA all clear. Data discrepancy due to aging within permissible range. 96% confirmation that this individual is the last registered arbiter. Access granted. Welcome back, Chrono Trigger.
B. Future Destruction Prevention
'FATE desires to have Serge killed in order to prevent the situation seen in the Dead Sea.'
This is negated somewhat by the apparent lack of interest in Serge in his early life. Support for this theory is limited because of this.
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I have a question now:
FATE still didn't have access to the Flame after he killed Serge. This is because Serge is still alive in on world. Why would that matter in Another?
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I think because there's only one Darkness Beyond Time, and thus one Time Devourer you can contact.
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About Porre overthrowing Guardia and FATE letting Porre make such a change:
As a couple people said, the 1000AD in CC isn't the same 1000AD as in CT. Also, everything from 65,000,000BC and onwards is a bit different than it was before the time crash, since the time crash influences Crono and co. and they influence 65,000,000 and other time periods.
Also, if FATE decided to just capture the Porre people that came to explore and not let them leave, that would probably have just as much of an effect as letting them gain power through elements. Imagine half of Porre suddenly disappearing without explanation. The only way that FATE could possibly limit changes would be for it to have brainwashed all the settlers that came and made them think that they found empty ocean, but I doubt that they wandered into Chronopolis (was the sea of eden closed off at that time) or that FATE could send brainwashing things to meet them without even bigger changes.
I don't think the game actually says anything specifically about Lynx's killing Serge, so I've always just took it to mean that Wazuki was just going crazy and killed whatever was closest to him (maybe he was playing with Serge on the beach, went crazy, and just killed him) or he specifically targeted Serge because he loved him the most. This, however, wasn't a coincidence and Belthasar probably 'planned' for Wazuki to be the one to become Lynx because that would cause the dimensions to split. Also, maybe FATE was aware that doing this would cause the dimensions to split, and wanted two frozen flames or something.
Also, does the game say that FATE's goal is to ensure its being built in the future? Unless I missed something, its only goal was to ensure that Lavos gets defeated, and even trying to make itself built in the future would be a stupid thing to plan for since it's not like Chronopolis would just evaporate because it was 'never' built.
Finally, onto Kid's pendant. I actually think that the pendant is a major plothole. How exactly does rewinding time help? If it worked like the dagger of time (Prince of Persia: the Sands of Time), then it would make sense; Kid would see herself about to get killed, rewind time, and, knowing the future, prevent it. However, it doesn't, apparently. If it only rewinds time after Kid dies, and she has no recollection of it, how does rewinding time actually change time to ensure her survival? It just seems to me that Kid would get killed, rewind time, get killed again, rewind time, etc. If I'm missing something, please fill me in.
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The pendant pretty much sends Kid back to a time before she gets killed. My theory says she stays in a pocket dimension. Then when shes back at the moment when she dies, she appears there and basically continues on, but hasn't been stabbed yet.
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So, then, what happens? Lynx stabs Kid. Pendant rewinds time. Kid stays in a pocket dimension, and comes out the moment after Lynx killed her originally. Is that what you're saying? That makes a bit more sense (I always figured that it worked like the prince's dagger where it just goes back in time, giving the prince memories of the future, rather than also creating a future body, if that makes sense), but in that way it makes sense a bit more because there's still a body that gets killed.. Anyway, so Kid falls to the ground, dies, and then another Kid just pops up out of a pocket dimension? Still seems a bit far-fetched
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No, it's more like Kid dies, and a copy of her is sent to a Pocket Dimension. Then the two Kid's get switched back. This is one of the parts which are just badly explained about Kid's handful of mysteries.
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Yeah, so that makes sense.. But I feel like it wasn't poorly explained, but that it was just overlooked and they could just explain how Kid survived all those times by 'rewinding time'
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I was always under the impression that it only affected her body.
I always saw it like this:
Kid is stabbed. Pendant rewinds time on Kid's body to a time where she is not wounded. Nobody seems to notice.
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Kind of strange not to notice that somebody who was dying get up and be completely fine :shock:.
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Ten years ago, it was Lynx who tried to kill you at this beach. After Prometheus broke the link between FATE and the Flame, FATE tried to eliminate any obstacle that stood in its way!
Lynx killed Serge.
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The way I'd say it works its effects begin immediately, albeit somewhat slowly.
That way, she still appears wounded, but it's already turned back the clocks.
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Or the pendant could screw with people's memories O_o
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What in Heavens...?
Kid was never killed.
When escaping Viper Manor, before jumping off the rooftop terrace, Lynx throws a poisoned sword into her, but she doesn't die. She lives, but is poisoned, and someone gives her the antidote; either Serge or Norris.
As for the Fort Dragonia incident, Lynx, in Serge's body, did stab Kid; we even have the delightful cut scene with him stabbing her with her own dagger, and the blood dripping off of it like water. But, Lynx preserved her life, and convinced her that he was Serge, for the purpose of ridding of Serge, who is in Lynx's original body.
Pendant rewinding time = hooky garbage!
Lynx still had a use for Kid and thus preserved her life. He simply needed to incapacitate her before he could brainwash her.
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Kid certainly took a lot of abuse...
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As for the Fort Dragonia incident, Lynx, in Serge's body, did stab Kid; we even have the delightful cut scene with him stabbing her with her own dagger, and the blood dripping off of it like water. But, Lynx preserved her life, and convinced her that he was Serge, for the purpose of ridding of Serge, who is in Lynx's original body.
Negative. She died. And the pendant saved her. Thats why she doesn't remmber Serge stabbing her.
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As for the Fort Dragonia incident, Lynx, in Serge's body, did stab Kid; we even have the delightful cut scene with him stabbing her with her own dagger, and the blood dripping off of it like water. But, Lynx preserved her life, and convinced her that he was Serge, for the purpose of ridding of Serge, who is in Lynx's original body.
Negative. She died. And the pendant saved her. Thats why she doesn't remmber Serge stabbing her.
OH COME ON.
That's a much more absurb explanation than saying that Kid survived and Lynx brain washed her. THAT is why Kid didn't remember being stabbed!
For one thing, your explanation is far more complex.
For another thing, we see no other possible instances of it elsewhere in the plot.
For a third thing, how could a pendant by itself do a time rewind?
I just don't see it being probable.
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Originally posted by AuraTwilight
The Planet
I remember coming to this very conclusion at one point, but that would mean that the Earth can create Time Gates at will, an ability which would only complicate things further if Earth had it - mostly because of the contradictions and inconsistencies that it would set forth.
Twenty years is a lot of time to conquer a passive country that could barely fight off a bunch of blue midgets.
Aye, blue midgets indeed - with a sorcerer as their leader. But nay, twenty years is far too short a time for what seemed to be one of the weakest and less militarized village to overthrow/conquer the region's strongest military power.
Personally, I've always said that their apparent, out of the blue discovery of powder was probably what did the trick, but alas! the slackers never gave as much as a hint about the whole thing.
I think I remember reading that the Amulet's power doesn't kick in until after she actually dies, like Tsukasa's pseudo-immortality in .hack//sign.
I remember reading that the Amulet's power is supposed to keep her from dying, and out of life-threatening situations.
This one still puzzles me a bit. Either 1) FATE didn't have full control of Lynx yet and he was absolutely bonkers, or 2) It was a subconscious program Belthasar put in to make sure Project Kid runs smoothly. Who knows?
Eh, about the first, it's too speculative and convenient, and besides, it's made more apparent, and it's much more reasonable, that Lynx equaled FATE from the get-go.
The second doen't fit in simply because, as we're told, all Lucca did was plant a bug in FATE's system to prevent it from reaching the Frozen Flame and whatnot. Programming FATE to create Lynx to idiotically kill Serge is plain absurd to even consider.
The Reptite dimensions DOES exist, so where do you get off saying it doesn't? Also, the Planet should roughly be as powerful as Lavos, so it should be able to do the same trick just fine.
Nay, it doesn't exist, for it doesn't branch off or originate from the original timeline - or rather, the "original" one as far as we know.
If Earth could alternately choose the future it preferred for itself, then why the hell would it allow the Human's future to prosper in any possible dimension or future? Or for that matter, if Earth had the absolutely necessary omniscience (and one heck of a touch of uber-power) to play in all past, present and future, how could it lose? Or hell, better yet, why the hell would it choose a future civilization, as a supposed "countermeasure" against Lavos' Chronopolis, that loses?
It's a fluff plot element that ultimaltely proves to be self-contradicting and inconsistent. To say that the Earth suddenly decided to pull back a civilization out of nowhere is a kick in the nuts.
The very notion that's implied herein and elsewhere --like, for instance, it being the famed "Entity"--, that the Earth is a single entity that trascends space-time and thus all dimensions, and that it's 'one and the same' in all of them is incoherent to and inconsistent with the whole mechanics and principles of the entire Chrono world, and would take a good long piss on the game's plot.
Originally posted by V_Translanka
But as she was merging and her mind was being corrupted by Lavos (& the Mammon Machine), she heard Serge's crying echoing through time. Now, it doesn't really say anything about her being in any particular time at all because it states that Serge's crying is echoing throughout time...The real question is why was Serge's crying so dominant in time?
Indeed that's the real question to be asked: What the hell made Serge so special back then, out of the millions of children that had suffered way more, in different time periods and quite possibly in his very own? And hell no, Schala was NOT omniscient too.
About Schala "passing by different/specific time periods" while she fell in the tesseract, it doesn't matter. It's a spacial distortion, separate or devoid of the force of time. What she did, according to CC, was reach out beyond the vortex temporarily to do her thing.
Uh, ZeaLitY said this forum, not this thread...but...w/e...I guess...
Bah, whatever. >.<
Uh, Elements? I dunno...Lucca did something w/Porre didn't she?
Not likely; Elements are much more abundant in El Nido anyways, and apparently it's of little attraction to those from the Zenan Mainland, as evinced by the Porre military's preference in guns.
Lucca? I really don't see her helping Porre out against Guardia...
Does FATE need Serge alive?
How else could it reach the Frozen Flame? It sure as hell couldn't do away with the Prometheus circuit/bug in its program.
Since the Planet no longer has to contend w/Lavos for it's almighty Planet energy juices, I'm sure that it's extra powerful in CC than it was in CT where it was just dying and making a few temporal portal things here and there....>_>
Eh, the whole point of pulling the "Reptite civilization" back in time was to ultimately contend against Lavos' will - as in, this face-off actually took place thousands of years in the past.
Originally posted by Chrono '99
From CT to CC, there isn't a span of twenty years but really a span of ten thousands and twenty years (1,000 AD to 2,400 AD, then Time Crash, then 7,600 BC to 1,020 AD).
Yeah, sure, but those X amount of years didn't fall on Porre and continued through a time bypass that departed from 1,000 A.D., and that eventually came back to its timeline after its own oddissey in space-time, eventually landing again on its timeline in 1,020 A.D. after oh so many years of being lost in different time periods.
So the point is, what, exactly, are you talking about? How do those events fit in or help explain anything about Porre's quick military superiority over Guardia? And if you're going to present the logically applicable "change" factor, then mind that you'll have to apply it to absolutely everything - thus just about everything we know of the Chrono world should in fact mean zilch, as nothing would've been the same; unless you're conveniently implying that Porre, and only Porre, was affected.
Originally posted by Sentenal
Not a plot hole. Just to let you know where I'm coming from, here it is. Zeality remarked you said CC was full of plot holes, and asked you to post them. You said okay, and then posted these. Us not knowing who the Entity is is NOT a plot hole. A plot hole is something unexplained that contradicts another, explained part of a series or plot.
Who or what the Entity is, is obviously not explained. The whole "Entity" deal I find to be contradicting because it's clear that it's intelligent, and that it was making its moves against Lavos. Yet it has time-bending capabilities, and everything plays out apparently according to its desires --thusly, everyone's a pawn.
Similar to how Belthasar planned everything out in CC, the Entity pretty much played its cards the way it did because it knew they'd do the trick in the end - why would it have made way for Crono and gang to reach the past and travel across time if it were otherwise?
Most agree it's the Planet.
I kind of agree, too. But we'd have to find ways to explain just how applicable to Earth is said title - which isn't all too easy considering all that it entails.
Kato said that Porre's rise to power was the result of some outside influence. Plus what Chrono'99 said. Plus, not a plot hole, its just something unexplained.
Anything that jumps from A to C, without ever setting foot on B, is a plot hole. It's an unexplained plot element: a plot hole - and more so because it's CT's damn sequel, as in, it's supposed to explain these things.
It rewinds time after something bad happens. You remmber Kid getting stabbed, and "dieing", yet being alive later in the game, not remmbering getting stabbed? Yeah. Not a plot hole.
One would say so, yes, but the fact that it did happen, and everyone else remembers it, means that she didn't go anywhere.
The pendant's power is not to give amnesia, dude, it's to take her to a safer point in time, where she's safe. If all it does is give amnesia after the events happen, then what the hell would it do if she just plain out died, as opposed to just getting stabbed and surviving the wound? Hm?
Eh, not too sure on this one myself.
I am. It be hole in plot.
It DID exist. In another dimension, where Lavos did not fall, and the Reptites won out. Plus what V_T and Aura said.
It still contradicts the Earth's very nature. If Earth could do that, it would mean that said dimension had no "Earth", or that there's only ONE Earth for ALL the dimensions. See what I mean?
In either case, they're idiotic elements that contradict the hell out of a butt-load of things. There has to be an Earth in the other dimension, or... what? It's only half of a dimension that appeared for the sole purpose to give away spare parts for the other dimensions?
And if you actually believe there's only ONE Earth for ALL dimensions, then why the hell wouldn't Earth just forget about all the other dimensions and simply stick to a way more favorable dimension as the one where the Reptites won, Lavos didn't fall, and Earth prospered and lived happily ever after? Logic speaks for itself, no?
Originally posted by ZeaLitY
Kato remarked that it's a story for "another time" (Chrono Break?).
Masato Kato also answered "maybe" to a bunch of questions made to him in an interview a few years ago about Chrono Cross, and other such answers that demonstrated doubt and insecurity on a plot and story that he wrote.
As for the theory, my point stands all the same, because FATE seeks to reach the Frozen Flame that's blocked from it, and the only way to accomplish this is by using Serge. Serge is an obstacle, yes, but eliminating him is illogical and would only present an even greater, irreparable obstacle.
Originally posted by Sentenal
I have a question now:
FATE still didn't have access to the Flame after he killed Serge. This is because Serge is still alive in on world. Why would that matter in Another?
That's not the point, though. It's always been that Serge is the Arbiter and thus the only one with access to the Frozen Flame. If he dies, there'd be no Arbiter to be found; FATE would lose all chances of reaching the Flame and would only continue to lose power, until eventually it would stand idle and powerless.
Why would FATE machinate its own demise, when it's been seeking god-like powers for who knows how many millenniums? It's retarded.
Originally posted by Shadow_Dragon
Also, if FATE decided to just capture the Porre people that came to explore and not let them leave, that would probably have just as much of an effect as letting them gain power through elements. Imagine half of Porre suddenly disappearing without explanation. The only way that FATE could possibly limit changes would be for it to have brainwashed all the settlers that came and made them think that they found empty ocean, but I doubt that they wandered into Chronopolis (was the sea of eden closed off at that time) or that FATE could send brainwashing things to meet them without even bigger changes.
Which reminds me: Chronopolis, or more specifically FATE, always tried to keep everyone from going out to the Mainlaind, and those from the outside, especially Porre, from coming to El Nido to invesitigate the Archipelago, in order to prevent them from doing anything that would undo the creation of FATE in the future. Yet Lynx is sent as an emissary to the Zenan Mainland to convince the inhabitants that the Frozen Flame is indeed in El Nido and urges them to move in and take over. Contradiction.
Originally posted by Zenning
Lynx still had a use for Kid and thus preserved her life.
What use?
He simply needed to incapacitate her before he could brainwash her.
What for?
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hoo-boy...I don't think I'll even attempt to reply to all of that...
First, the specific person quote tag is [*quote="whoever"]the words whoever wrote[/quote] minus the * of course. Just a heads up in case you didn't know...
Nay, it (reptite dimension) doesn't exist, for it doesn't branch off or originate from the original timeline - or rather, the "original" one as far as we know.
Uh, it branches from Lavos not impacting the earth, doesn't it? It exists on another plane of existence as far as I understand dimensions...I don't think anything was 'chosen'...I mean, the Planet only draws Dinopolis forth because Chronopolis was drawn forth. We have no idea if this was just reactionary or if this was a conscious decision that was made and that it could be made at any time or just in conjunction w/something else being brought back like Chronopolis was...
Elements are much more abundant in El Nido anyways
Wait, how do we know that?
and apparently it's of little attraction to those from the Zenan Mainland, as evinced by the Porre military's preference in guns.
They still use Elements too, though, don't they? Maybe I don't remember...But anyways, just because you use a gun doesn't mean you're going to rule out using magics (consider Lucca for example)...And, they do invade El Nido, don't they?
Lucca? I really don't see her helping Porre out against Guardia...
[Receipt]
Receipt for
Goods Received
1 - KJ830
- Porre Navy
Okay...It really doesn't say much of anything...and actually, does it look more like Lucca bought something from Porre? Would you get a receipt if you gave them something? What is KJ830?
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You'll have to forgive the abrupt post. I'm King Zeal, one of the friends Dark Saint mentioned in a previous post (in which, I feel, he does me too much justice. Don't let my joke of a sig fool you.) I'm simply a lover of all things Chrono. Though I admit that I dislike Chrono Cross strongly for reasons similar to ones he's already posted, I'm not here to "back him up" or anything--nor did he ask me to come, and I'm sure he'll be more shocked to see my post than yourselves. Indeed, I don't know how much good I'll do in this discussion. Truth be told, it's been so many years since I've played either Chrono game that it's likely I've forgotten many key elements of plot or script, thus crippling my ability for debate. Still, as it's been quite a while since I've enjoyed a good Chrono-related discussion, I'm eager to stay here and toss around a few ideas.
Thank you for you time.
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Well...that is kind of off-topic...but this thread isn't the most well defined in that means...so...
Chrono Trigger Script (http://cc.herograw.com/Black/Publications/ctscript.txt)
Chrono Cross Script (http://cc.herograw.com/Black/Publications/crossscript.txt)
Radical Dreamers Script (http://cc.herograw.com/Black/Publications/rdscript.txt)
Or, y'know, I guess you could play them again or something...
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Well, scripts are easy to get to, but I only tend to reference them when absolutely needed. The problem isn't in having access to the scripts. It's in recognizing a "fault" in someone else's argument and being able to cite part of the script as counter-evidence. My lack of memory in the game hinders me from that recognition.
However, that said:
Uh, it branches from Lavos not impacting the earth, doesn't it? It exists on another plane of existence as far as I understand dimensions...I don't think anything was 'chosen'...I mean, the Planet only draws Dinopolis forth because Chronopolis was drawn forth. We have no idea if this was just reactionary or if this was a conscious decision that was made and that it could be made at any time or just in conjunction w/something else being brought back like Chronopolis was...
The issue that I (and apparently DS) have with this is that if you're going to throw "what-if" dimensions into the mix, why specifically choose this one? Why simply choose a world where Lavos never fell? Why not choose a world where, say, the sentient race on Earth is a bunch of viruses that can wipe out humans in seconds? The fact that the specific conditions of this what-if dimension existed suggests that it was "chosen". And if it was, WHY was it chosen?
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I think it was used because it represented the opposite of Lavos & Chronopolis (I mean, heck, look at the names! Dinopolis! Chronopolis! Who'd a thunk it?)...
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I didn't want to do this, but http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plot_hole
A plot hole is a gap in a storyline that goes against the flow of logic set-up by the plot. Plot holes are usually seen as weaknesses and flaws in a story, and writers try to avoid them (except in certain deliberate circumstances) to make their stories seem as realistic and lifelike as possible.
The viewing or reading audience notes a plot hole when something happens during the story that seems highly unlikely, or would be impossible to imitate in real life. If a bank robber's car is being chased by five or six police cruisers, and the bank robber successfully evades capture simply by making a left turn down a dark alley, this is seen as a plot hole.
It is usually seen as a mark of good writing or directing when a storyteller presents a story in such a way that the audience does not notice plot holes, or willingly chooses to overlook them in favor of enjoying the story.
A well-known plot hole occurs in the 1969 film On Her Majesty's Secret Service. When James Bond meets Ernst Stavro Blofeld, neither man recognizes the other, despite a previous confrontation in 1967's You Only Live Twice. However, both James Bond and Blofeld were played by different actors in both films.
Now, are suddenly all unexplained facets of stories plot holes? Kato has stated that they had help from outside time. Coming from Masato Kato, the creator of a series in which time is mutable, that's a pretty heavy statement, and not a plot hole; he stated that he did not want to try and cram the explanation into Chrono Cross to further overwhelm the player. Kato knows exactly what's going on in his fantasy world, including what happened to Magus, Schala & Kid ,and what caused Porre to rise. That he has decided not to share it with us is his own discretion. In a series where one NPC statement can carry huge repercussions (such as Another Radius's speaking of Guardia), one has to depend on what little evidence there is available in canon. It seems somewhat silly to attack the precept of Belthasar planning this all out when the game specifically states that he did so. He had the FATE supercomputer, but moreover he had the Neo-Epoch. He could have made countless simulations beforehand, and even conducted field research with the Epoch before deploying the Time Crash. Considering he designed an airplane, a palace that could operate on the sea floor, and a device that can travel through time -- with technology immeasurably advanced beyond even that of aliens -- I wouldn't put it past Belthasar to plan out a sequence of events related to time and dimensional transforms.
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Now, are suddenly all unexplained facets of stories plot holes? Kato has stated that they had help from outside time. Coming from Masato Kato, the creator of a series in which time is mutable, that's a pretty heavy statement, and not a plot hole; he stated that he did not want to try and cram the explanation into Chrono Cross to further overwhelm the player. Kato knows exactly what's going on in his fantasy world, including what happened to Magus, Schala & Kid ,and what caused Porre to rise. That he has decided not to share it with us is his own discretion.
EVERY writer has to juggle this. You want to make a story that's accessible to readers, and yet, completes its own logic. However, because Kato chose to omit certain parts of his story, he's left things far too open for speculation (in my opinion).
In a series where one NPC statement can carry huge repercussions (such as Another Radius's speaking of Guardia), one has to depend on what little evidence there is available in canon. It seems somewhat silly to attack the precept of Belthasar planning this all out when the game specifically states that he did so. He had the FATE supercomputer, but moreover he had the Neo-Epoch.
Wasn't FATE created decades after he disappeared from 2300 AD? And how do we even know what uses he would have made for the Neo Epoch? Especially since, by his own machinations, he wouldn't actually know what would happen until AFTER the Time Crash had occurred?
He could have made countless simulations beforehand, and even conducted field research with the Epoch before deploying the Time Crash. Considering he designed an airplane, a palace that could operate on the sea floor, and a device that can travel through time -- with technology immeasurably advanced beyond even that of aliens -- I wouldn't put it past Belthasar to plan out a sequence of events related to time and dimensional transforms.
The technology of the Zeal Kingdom was possible due to engineering and an inexhaustable energy supply. That's a far cry from what the plot states he achieved in regards to the Chrono Cross. Time travel is, however, obviously an attainable science in the Chrono universe. Lucca herself achieves it specifically by accident. Belthasar, in fact, doesn't actually CREATE a time machine until after he'd ALREADY been sent through time--thus not really making that an accomplishment of his own, but instead a means of copying a previous event. (Such as a physicist trying to generate electric current in a lab after witnessing a lightning storm.)
The Time Crash and the events thereof called for Belthasar to successfully predict a number of events:
1) That Lavos would pull Chronopolis specifically to El Nido to the exact time and location that he did.
2) The Dinopolis would be pulled back by Earth under the same conditions.
3) That the two would fight and Chronopolis would win.
4) That Dinopolis would introduce Elements into the world.
5) That FATE would seal the Dragons and that the Dinopolitans would become Dragonians.
6) The Dragonians would build Fort Dragonia and the Dragon's Tear.
7) That Serge (who wouldn't even exist when this plan was conceived) would be bitten by a panther and poisoned.
8.) That Schala, who was tumbling through the timestream (thus taking her out of his area of observation and experimentation) would give him access to the Frozen Flame.
9) That Lynx would be created.
10) That Lynx would try to drown Serge.
11) That Kid would go back in time to save Serge. (Thus, by extension, making it necessary to predict Kid's creation, discovery by Lucca, and her meeting Serge.)
12) That the world would split in two.
13) That Serge would travel to Another World.
14) That Lynx would switch bodies with Serge and smash the AW Dragon's Tear.
15) That Serge would use the HW Dragon's Tear to reclaim his body.
16) That Serge would use the two pedestals under the waterfall (which Bel would also have to know existed) to merge the two Tears in the Chrono Cross.
Keep in mind: Belthasar's grand scheme would only work if he predicted and/or caused EACH AND EVERY ONE of these events to occur. If even one of these events occurred beyond his control (such as the drawing of Dinopolis or the creation of Fort Dragonia), then it was no longer his plan and thus becomes a random occurrence.
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I'm well aware that he can't go to and from Chronopolis once the Time Crash has occurred. However, he can conduct his own field research in time before in order for planning, or after in case something goes awry and he needs to correct it. Since Belthasar planned the Time Crash, and disappeared shortly before, and since FATE and the Frozen Flame were the key compenents of the crash, they were assembled operative while he was in the future.
Zeal may be artistically better by leaps and bounds than 2300 A.D., but scientifically and practically Chronopolis is as good as it gets. The various rooms reveal they were already aware of countless facts, such as the contact with the Flame and increased brain growth, as well as the nature of Gates and dimensions.
I believe he planned all of those, for one reason:
[Lucca]
And now, about '"Project Kid"'...
the time control project
Belthasar planned out.
The whole project existed to
lead you to this one, special
point in time!
The founding of Chronopolis,
the Time Crash, and the
battle between FATE and
the Dragon Gods...
It was all coordinated so
that you would get your
hands on the Chrono Cross
and come to this place!
The issue is not "did he do it." We should be asking, how? And there are suitable answers for that question out there already.
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I'm well aware that he can't go to and from Chronopolis once the Time Crash has occurred. However, he can conduct his own field research in time before in order for planning, or after in case something goes awry and he needs to correct it. Since Belthasar planned the Time Crash, and disappeared shortly before, and since FATE and the Frozen Flame were the key compenents of the crash, they were assembled operative while he was in the future.
The groundwork was laid out, this is true. However, there are SEVERAL elements of his plan that are not capable of being experimented upon (again, such as Schala hearing Serge or creating Kid). This would require precognitive abilities on Belthasar's part (which the game never says he has) or dumb luck (thus taking away the credibility of his "plan").
Zeal may be artistically better by leaps and bounds than 2300 A.D., but scientifically and practically Chronopolis is as good as it gets. The various rooms reveal they were already aware of countless facts, such as the contact with the Flame and increased brain growth, as well as the nature of Gates and dimensions.
Well yeah. Aside from the gurus, Zeal was actually rather lazy. Whereas Chronopolis was pretty much a civilization made for a colony of scientific minds. So yeah, that's true . . . but what does it prove?
I believe he planned all of those, for one reason:
[Lucca]
And now, about '"Project Kid"'...
the time control project
Belthasar planned out.
The whole project existed to
lead you to this one, special
point in time!
The founding of Chronopolis,
the Time Crash, and the
battle between FATE and
the Dragon Gods...
It was all coordinated so
that you would get your
hands on the Chrono Cross
and come to this place!
The issue is not "did he do it." We should be asking, how? And there are suitable answers for that question out there already.
Like Dark Saint, I'm not arguing whether or not he planned it. I just don't believe the answers provided in the game are "suitable" for how he did it. It's like saying, in a comic book, that Batman suddenly dies and comes back from the dead. Then, when the readers ask how, you answer "Batman is really smart". This provides a non-detailed plot-device--but not an answer.
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If the Epoch can travel to the End of Time, is it such a stretch to believe the Neo Epoch can travel to the DBT or w/e Schala is? Or w/e...? Or at least to after she's been sucked into it...Perhaps he simply was able to detect some leftover temporal evidence...
Yeah, I'm totally not tackling all of that...
Oh yeah, and ZeaLitY, I used that wikipedia entry in my Compendium Dictionary of Commonly Used Terms (http://www.chronocompendium.com/Forums/viewtopic.php?t=1004)! :lol: Although I summarized it (really I just, like, used the first sentence...>_>).
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Here are 5.
-FATE Supercomputer
-Greatest scientific mind of all time
-Neo-Epoch
-Use of Magic
And as a stretch,
-Collaboration with Entity
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That just causes a few more problems:
1) Why would Time Devourer NOT simply kill Belthasar?
2) Why wouldn't Belthasar simply not have gone to the Chrono Trigger characters and ask them rescue Schala instead?
3) Wouldn't the Time Devourer know about Belthasar's plan and thus try to stop it?
. . . And that's just the tip of the iceberg.
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-FATE Supercomputer
Which, Belathasar can apparently outsmart. And, also had NO ACCESS to before leaving 2300 AD.
-Greatest scientific mind of all time
Which would not account for MAGICAL involvement (your fourth answer).
-Neo-Epoch
But we don't know how or IF he used it.
-Use of Magic
The universal cop-out answer. "A wizard did it."
-Collaboration with Entity
Not what the game says. Plus, we don't even know IF the entity actually exists for real or what it is.
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-FATE Supercomputer
Which, Belathasar can apparently outsmart. And, also had NO ACCESS to before leaving 2300 AD.
-Greatest scientific mind of all time
Which would not account for MAGICAL involvement (your fourth answer).
-Neo-Epoch
But we don't know how or IF he used it.
-Use of Magic
The universal cop-out answer. "A wizard did it."
-Collaboration with Entity
Not what the game says. Plus, we don't even know IF the entity actually exists for real or what it is.
You can outsmart a computer if you program it to be outsmarted. The game distinctly states, from Lynx, that some added some coding that made FATE oblivious to the Prometheus Circuit's existence. FATE also seems to have no idea of the greater purpose it is serving as part of Project Kid.
And the magic goes hand in hand with science. The greatest inventions of the Kingdom of Zeal all seemed to operate on magic or elemental energies. Oh, and...
Cop-out?
Belthasar:
There, I seized the opportunity
to study the science of the
future...
I was then able to apply to that
the knowledge I brought from my
own era, including magic, which
was long lost in the future.
Anyway, this led me to make
huge progress in the research
of time.
And yes, that's why I marked the fifth as a stretch.
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Wow, I totally didn't know you guys were back-and-forth posting when I last posted...
1) Why would Time Devourer NOT simply kill Belthasar?
Because it doesn't exist yet?
If you don't think that he has access to the FATE Supercomputer (I don't really know the specifics of his travels through time, myself), simply replace it w/the Mother Brain Supercomputer.
The use of magic in the Chrono series holds much precident than the regular "a wizard did it"...I mean, Magus can summon a Black Hole for cryin' out loud! And Schala has the magical ability to 1) close gates & 2) help control the flow of Lavos' power in the Mammon Machine (or w/e she does there).
The Entity exists. It is the Planet. There is next to no doubt in this.
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I'd submit that the TD can't reach out and touch someone because it's in the DBT. It's only way to get revenge and fulfill that pervasive hatred that invaded Schala's mind is to eat time and space from the inside out.
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You can outsmart a computer if you program it to be outsmarted. The game distinctly states, from Lynx, that some added some coding that made FATE oblivious to the Prometheus Circuit's existence. FATE also seems to have no idea of the greater purpose it is serving as part of Project Kid.
The only purpose the Prometheus Circuit served was to lock FATE away from the Frozen Flame the MOMENT it had a chance to. (Thus meaning that Belthasar predicted Schala's actions AND Serge's involvement--which weren't possible at the time). This, however, does not denote his prediction of several actions--such as FATE's creation of El Nido.
And the magic goes hand in hand with science. The greatest inventions of the Kingdom of Zeal all seemed to operate on magic or elemental energies. Oh, and...
So wait . . . are you listing magic as a different branch of science (simple manipulation nature as was done in the Zeal Kingdom) or as the use of supernatural forces (which would make science useless)? Because there's a big difference between the two.
Belthasar:
There, I seized the opportunity
to study the science of the
future...
I was then able to apply to that
the knowledge I brought from my
own era, including magic, which
was long lost in the future.
Anyway, this led me to make
huge progress in the research
of time.
This explains how he researched TIME. This does not explain how he came to formulate his plan or to know about events that would happen in three alternate timelines that he could not have know even existed (or would exist).
Oh and . . .
Cop-out?
Yes. Cop-out.
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Magic is the fundamental manipulation of the four basic forces of the universe -- Water, Fire, Shadow, and Light. This is the only definition. Since Zeal found so many wondrous applications and uses for magic, and since time is kind of what we're dealing with here, I'm going to leave it at that.
I also submit that if you program and oversee the creation of a computer, knowing beforehand its buried ambitions (since this was an improved Mother Brain), you're going to have some idea of what it's going to do, neh? Man, Belthasar is a Guru of Zeal, and the Guru of Reason at that. He can use advanced temporal magic and has the clout to establish a veritable time research instituion complete with a computer able to not only officiate and maintain the building but conduct rigorous simulations and oversee the going ons of an entire chain of islands, down to the last bug. The methods are there.
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Because it doesn't exist yet?
Yes, it did. He actually learned of its existence through the Frozen Flame.
If you don't think that he has access to the FATE Supercomputer (I don't really know the specifics of his travels through time, myself), simply replace it w/the Mother Brain Supercomputer.
Right, but apparently, Belthasar doesn't NEED it, as he can easily outsmart one.
The use of magic in the Chrono series holds much precident than the regular "a wizard did it"...I mean, Magus can summon a Black Hole for cryin' out loud! And Schala has the magical ability to 1) close gates & 2) help control the flow of Lavos' power in the Mammon Machine (or w/e she does there).
"Magic" in Chrono Trigger terms tends to speak of the summoning/manipulation of natural elements (Lightning, Fire, Water, and Darkness).
The Entity exists. It is the Planet. There is next to no doubt in this.
Really? Because I could have sworn that there's an entire thread debating the subject.
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Magic is the fundamental manipulation of the four basic forces of the universe -- Water, Fire, Shadow, and Light. This is the only definition. Since Zeal found so many wondrous applications and uses for magic, and since time is kind of what we're dealing with here, I'm going to leave it at that.
So then:
"Greatest scientific mind of all time" and "Use of magic" shouldn't be listed as two separate reasons, since, in the Chrono universe, magic is just an "advanced" form of science.
I also submit that if you program and oversee the creation of a computer, knowing beforehand its buried ambitions (since this was an improved Mother Brain), you're going to have some idea of what it's going to do, neh?
Within conceivable situations, yes. Predicting what a supercomputer will do to preserve two NON-EXISTENT parallel dimensions and fight a war against extradimensional reptiles are NOT conceivable situations.
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Since magic is fundamental in all things, it's not an 'advanced' form of science, it is ingrained in all science.
Also, Belthasar doesn't have to predict those of FATE's actions which he can simply program.
edit: I also don't remember seeing anything that solidly gave light that the Entity was anything but the Planet...
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Same thing. He can't do EITHER unless he predicts the situations in which these actions will be taken. Which again, brings us back to his amazing precognitive abilities.
I also don't remember seeing anything that solidly gave light that the Entity was anything but the Planet...
There isn't any evidence that says it IS the planet, either. Because basically, what we're told is that the Entity was supposed to be trying to relive its life before it died. In the original, Lavos-ruled timeline, this indeed COULD be the planet, which was on the verge of "death". However, when Lucca and Marle talk in the new "Lavos-free" timeline, they say that the Entity can "rest in peace" now. Now, this makes the Planet theory suspect because the Planet in the new timeline was (presumably) just fine and dandy.
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Well I think it's obvious that Belthasar is some kind of insane savant...:lol:
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Same thing. He can't do EITHER unless he predicts the situations in which these actions will be taken. Which again, brings us back to his amazing precognitive abilities.
I also don't remember seeing anything that solidly gave light that the Entity was anything but the Planet...
There isn't any evidence that says it IS the planet, either. Because basically, what we're told is that the Entity was supposed to be trying to relive its life before it died. In the original, Lavos-ruled timeline, this indeed COULD be the planet, which was on the verge of "death". However, when Lucca and Marle talk in the new "Lavos-free" timeline, they say that the Entity can "rest in peace" now. Now, this makes the Planet theory suspect because the Planet in the new timeline was (presumably) just fine and dandy.
Umm, neither of them were aware of a being that could devour all of space and time when they talked about that. I don't see that the planet can rest peacefully when it is about to be completely destroyed.
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Apparently, it DIDN'T know anyway. And besides, the Earth was no longer Lavos' (The Time Devourer's) target at that point. All of reality was.
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So... then the planet isn't the Entity because the Time Devourer isn't specifically targeting the planet anymore? :/
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No. Because the Earth itself wasn't dying in specific. The Earth, like everything on it, is bright and healthy thanks to the Chrono Trigger team. The Entity, as Lucca and Marle theorize, is now "resting in peace" (aka dead). Therefore, that makes it suspect that the Entity is, in fact, the Earth (or Planet).
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Wait, so now you do think the Entity is the planet? You are confusing me.
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No, I just don't believe that the notion of the Entity being the Earth is "fact", as V_T stated. It's possible--but not a fact.
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Oh gotcha. It think that it is fact too, but that is something that is hard to argue.
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Same thing. He can't do EITHER unless he predicts the situations in which these actions will be taken. Which again, brings us back to his amazing precognitive abilities.
Keep in mind that FATE could see into all dimensions, places, and times. Before giving FATE self-awareness, he could have used it to plan out Project Kid in it's entirety.
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Where in the story does it say that?
And also, how in the hell would FATE help plan anything when Home World nor Another World even existed yet? Seeing all existing timelines is one thing. Seeing all-as-of-yet-uncreated timelines is just far-fetched.
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You seem to think that FATE is limited to act like a modern day computer.
The difference is that it's from 2400 AD.
I doubt technology is really all that limited in capabilities.
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Where in the story does it say that?
And also, how in the hell would FATE help plan anything when Home World nor Another World even existed yet? Seeing all existing timelines is one thing. Seeing all-as-of-yet-uncreated timelines is just far-fetched.
Nowhere directly. But then again, the game leaves out alot of things you need to piece together with information already there. Thing is, where do you draw the line on which timelines exist when? Timeline creation, destruction, and splitting obviously doesn't work in linear time as we think it. Plus, Belthasar could have programmed FATE to do what it did.
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You seem to think that FATE is limited to act like a modern day computer.
The difference is that it's from 2400 AD.
I doubt technology is really all that limited in capabilities.
I'm not about to speculate on the theoretical powers of a supercomputer from a fictional story. The fact of the matter is, the Chrono universe has no "modern day" equivalent, so I have no method of comparing or contrasting our technology versus theirs. However, speculating make-believe powers in order to make a story work is just a tell-tale sign of lazy storytelling. For example, you read a realistic crime drama, and then somewhere in the story, the main character suddenly picks up a bus and throws it across the street. Then someone claims, "Oh, see, it's a fictional story so we don't know what the character can do! The author never even said main character was born on Earth, so for all we know, he be Kryptonian and have superpowers!" Speculating is fine and dandy to certain limits. But the problem is when you just stretch it too far.
Nowhere directly. But then again, the game leaves out alot of things you need to piece together with information already there. Thing is, where do you draw the line on which timelines exist when? Timeline creation, destruction, and splitting obviously doesn't work in linear time as we think it. Plus, Belthasar could have programmed FATE to do what it did.
Linear time isn't the point. Timelines are sequences of events, and the only way to foresee a timeline is to foresee an entire sequence of events. You can't foresee a sequence of events for a situation that has not happened, which means, past the moment when FATE went through time, Belthasar's plan should have been COMPLETELY working in the dark. Again, there was NO WAY he could have foreseen the involvement of Porre, Schala, Dinopolis AND the divergent history of humanity (let alone the actions of the Chrono Trigger cast within the new timeline). There was nothing to base it on. And if you start believing that he can foresee the action that EVERY LIVING BEING in three worlds (that don't even exist yet) over a 10,000 year period of time, then you might as well believe that he's God.
Also, he could NOT have programmed FATE to do everything. For example, what program could he give FATE for sealing up the Dragon Gods? Elements, the Dragon Gods, and Terra Tower never existed in his own timeline. This was done independently by the Earth itself and FATE reacted based on the situation at hand. There was NO WAY Belthasar could have told it how to handle the situation.
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Yea,
The writer's have only told us that he is the guru of reason for arguably the most advanced people to ever live on Earth
Had access to records of the time he wanted change
Had Magical powers
Was head of the most advanced scientific community to ever exist
and he had access to a time machine so that he could do an infinite number of trial and errors
They really have given this guy quite a resume man...I know this is basically resaying what has already been stated but I'm not exactly sure what you want. Is it hard to comprehend....yes but it really isn't completely impossible when you have all the resources he has.
And please stop arguing about Fate, You have no idea how the programming works but it is incredibly safe to assume that since he built it, it can be listed as an assett to his plan.
--jp
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The writer's have only told us that he is the guru of reason for arguably the most advanced people to ever live on Earth
And this makes him a very wise man. However, I do not see how this gives him precognitive powers.
Had access to records of the time he wanted change
It's not that he CHANGED time. It's that he supposedly predicted what changes would result from those changes over 10,000 years within THREE dimensions.
No records will tell you that.
Had Magical powers
As said before, Magic is only a division of science in the Chrono world.
Was head of the most advanced scientific community to ever exist
and he had access to a time machine so that he could do an infinite number of trial and errors
No, he couldn't. You see, because it's stated in the story that, after he set events in motion, he traveled to Home World 1020 AD to see how things had turned out. Let's assume he screwed up. If he traveled forward again from this point, he would NOT be going back to the original timeline HE came from, but instead to the NEW timeline he created. Which wouldn't accomplish SQUAT because there would be NO WAY to start the experiment all over again.
They really have given this guy quite a resume man...I know this is basically resaying what has already been stated but I'm not exactly sure what you want. Is it hard to comprehend....yes but it really isn't completely impossible when you have all the resources he has.
What I'm saying is that none of the resources he has makes several parts of his plan workable.
And please stop arguing about Fate, You have no idea how the programming works but it is incredibly safe to assume that since he built it, it can be listed as an assett to his plan.
I didn't say it WASN'T an asset to his plan. My argument is that it could NOT have been an asset to the degree that you claim, as several parts of Belthasar's plan had no way of being foreseen by him.
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I apologize for exodus, Zeal you really have stayed relatively calm during all of this (I love ellipses too ha ha). One of the best parts about Chrono Compendium is that you can state your opinoins without fear of being...sigh...flamed. This may be wrong, but did Belthasar send back Fate first? Because if he did then I Belthasar would certainly have PLENTY of data to make simulations and perfect his plan.
--jp
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No, FATE went 100 years after Belthasar had already made the trip to 1020 AD.
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Far fetched, but where was Fate sending all of it's data too...couldn't it have been sending somewhere where Belthasar had access to it?
--jp
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Maybe after 1020 AD. But what about the 10,000 years BEFORE Belthasar arrived?
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FATE CAN'T SEE INTO NONEXISTENT TIMELINES
That was a bad wording, and I was hoping someone would correct it before it exploded into a 2 page crapfest of ignorance.
FATE CAN SIMULATE MAJOR TIMELINE SEQUENCES OF EVENTS
All the data on Lavos that was
obtained from tracing different
parallel world possibilities
has proven to be volatile, with
fluctuating discrepencies.
Perhaps, at this point in time,
it is nearly impossible to
obtain any true information
about Lavos.
There. FATE has the capacity to simulate rough timeline possibilities and divergences.
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Wait . . . so you're making the claim that FATE can detail 10,000 years of possible timeline events, and yet, in the same paragraph, it states that information about Lavos was unattainable . . . why? If FATE can simulate POSSIBLE timelines, why can't it simulate ACTUAL ones?
Apparently, the defintion of "rough possibilities" is flexible.
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Oh, get off it. This is an overextended hunt for corroborating facts that are in clear view. Belthasar was the Guru of Reason. He knew advanced magic. He had one of the greatest scientific minds of all time. He had the ability to design a time traveling machine. He created the FATE supercomputer. What more do you need? Belthasar has a silver moon man in his ear who tells him pretty things?
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What's with all the anger? I'm not trying to attack you personally, nor have I attempted to insult you or any of your posters. I just don't have a suspension of disbelief large enough to buy that any of the above factors were sufficient for manipulating the entire events of Chrono Cross and its necessary backstory. I'll eagerly attempt to provide basis for my position, but I don't appreciate the complete dismissal of my claims and telling me to "get off it". I'm being as courteous as I can be within the confines of a debate. Can I at least have the same, even if we continue to disagree?
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You mentioned speculation being too far "out there." The same works for the converse; you're digging too deeply in fantasy and art. The game provides sufficient reasoning; this is splitting unnecessary hairs in a genre where statements without direct contradiction by event constitute fact. Those five factors alone should well enough support the fact that Belthasar could plan out the events of a backwater chain of islands; contending this is not deserved of a ten page thread of debating minutiae.
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You mentioned speculation being too far "out there." The same works for the converse; you're digging too deeply in fantasy and art. The game provides sufficient reasoning; this is splitting unnecessary hairs in a genre where statements without direct contradiction by event constitute fact. Those five factors alone should well enough support the fact that Belthasar could plan out the events of a backwater chain of islands; contending this is not deserved of a ten page thread of debating minutiae.
Whether or not the game provides sufficient meaning is subject to debate. I'm doing my best to provide counters for the arguments provided, but instead of actually disproving them, several people (yourself included) are instead just citing their own higher levels of suspension of disbelief as reasoning to invalidate my opinion. Now, we're expected to start all over again because I just don't buy what the plot is selling. Even though it's enough for you, I'll just say, one more time, why I don't buy each of the five factors:
Belthasar was the Guru of Reason.
A title which does not, in my estimation, suddenly make him able to manipulate entities and millennia of history in non-existent timelines. In fact, the very purpose of Chrono Cross's plot, that time is flexible, completely makes one person's "reason" all the more fallible. If time and the events therein are flexible, then there's no way a scheme of this magnitude should have succeeded off of REASON. Reason suggests cause and effect. However, under the proposition of time travel, cause and effects can be CHANGED at any time--thus negating reason.
He knew advanced magic.
And, as you yourself basically stated, "magic" in the Chrono universe is simply a branch of science. It is not supernatural force, as used in other fantasy-based stories, but instead manipulation of natural energies. So, if magic is a science, then it works based on reason. Which leads me to defer to my previous statement.
He had one of the greatest scientific minds of all time.
Which again leads me to defer to my previous statement.
He had the ability to design a time traveling machine.
Lucca did the same thing. BEFORE he did, in fact. This isn't really proof of pioneering brilliance (though, I do NOT deny that he IS brilliant) because of the fact that he simply took previously-existing scientific data and used it to make a new machine. This, however, does not allow me to suspend my disbelief to allow for the sudden ability to predict time--which, by the game's own admission, is unpredictable.
He created the FATE supercomputer
And again, this makes him a great engineer and a fantastic inventor. It doesn't give him the power to foresee the intricacies of those same 10,000 years of history and the individuals who live therein. If anything, the fact that he created FATE to crunch "time data" for him tells me that he found it as daunting a task to grasp as the workers at Chronopolis did. This is why I find his sudden psudo-omniscience that much more puzzling.
Now please feel free to argue any of that, and I'll respond with as much of a fair retor as I can. But please, PLEASE do not simply regress to complete acceptance of these factors as proof again. It just makes us go in circles.
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Firstly, I'd like to ask King Zeal, please, don't put words in my mouth. I did not say that the Entity being the Planet is "fact" as you state that I do. It just might as well be.
Also, even though time travel would change how you'd think about things and how cause and effect would occur, cause and effect still play their roles in time travel. Example: the gates created by the Entity did not just appear by chance, they were created as the effect of Lavos, the cause which required the effect to take place. With sufficient reasoning capabilities you could map out time as well as space.
It is no more or less absurd to think that Belthasar is capable of doing so just because we don't see it as possible within our own realm of thinking than it is that not just creating a time machine, but actually traveling into the past is.
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With sufficient reasoning capabilities you could map out time as well as space.
I'm pretty sure Werner Heisenberg would disagree with that statement.
Edit: Spelling
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The main problem here is that the new timelines Belthasar is both stupider but more devious. This time, Belthasar could not make an epoch that could contantly time travel, but was only used to travel once and only once.
FATE was finished after Belthasar dissapeared, presumably time travelling to 1020, and then by 2400, the people at Chronopolis assigned with the task of causing the counter time experiment accidently caused the time crash that Belthasar had been expecting. I don't think FATE ever really even talked with Belthasar. If FATE can predict possabilities, then FATE would automatically know that it's being used and everything about the Prometheus circut would exist.
My Question:
If Belthasar travelled to 1020 before the time crash to El Nido (if he travelled at 2300) would there be the whole El Nido as we know it? Would he automatically turn up in a new time line which from where he was, the timecrash was due in another 100 years? How does this work out?
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Firstly, I'd like to ask King Zeal, please, don't put words in my mouth. I did not say that the Entity being the Planet is "fact" as you state that I do. It just might as well be.
I'm sorry. You didn't actually use the word "fact". Instead, what you said was:
"The Entity exists. It is the Planet. There is next to no doubt in this."
So I was attempting to show that there was, in fact, reasonable doubt. But, I apologize for the semantical error.
Also, even though time travel would change how you'd think about things and how cause and effect would occur, cause and effect still play their roles in time travel. Example: the gates created by the Entity did not just appear by chance, they were created as the effect of Lavos, the cause which required the effect to take place. With sufficient reasoning capabilities you could map out time as well as space.
The thing about this, however, is that at no time is it suggested that Chrono Trigger's events led up to a single person, at a single time, at a single place. Sure, you could argue the fact that Lavos' destruction was the ultimate task at hand, but look at how many variances exist to meet that condition. Both Crono and Magus can be dead, the Epoch can be destroyed (or not) and you may or may not have gotten the Time Egg. The "plan" of the Entity, as it were, wasn't a single ordered effect to meet a specific cause. In contrast, for Belthasar's ENTIRE plan to work, there would have to be outside influence on number of occasions as well as unforeseeable circumstances, which I am skeptical to accept that he anticipated in order to meet a narrowly specific result (which is Serge standing Opassa Beach at 1020 AD with the Chrono Cross in hand).
It is no more or less absurd to think that Belthasar is capable of doing so just because we don't see it as possible within our own realm of thinking than it is that not just creating a time machine, but actually traveling into the past is.
I disagree. I believe that it is MORE absurd to believe that the SPECIFIC conditions of Belthasar's elaborate plan have been met than to simply accept the notion of time travel. The reason being, time travel is merely an unchartered circumstance in the Chrono universe. However, Belthasar's plan serves the basis of justifying a plot twist that is, in my opinion, unnecessary.
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He had one of the greatest scientific minds of all time.
Which again leads me to defer to my previous statement.
He had the ability to design a time traveling machine.
Lucca did the same thing. BEFORE he did, in fact. This isn't really proof of pioneering brilliance (though, I do NOT deny that he IS brilliant) because of the fact that he simply took previously-existing scientific data and used it to make a new machine. This, however, does not allow me to suspend my disbelief to allow for the sudden ability to predict time--which, by the game's own admission, is unpredictable.
What!?! When did Lucca create a time machine? The only thing that reselmbled a 'time machine" was the accident with the teleporter. And that definetely was not in any way shape or form designed to be a time machine. It only worked once, and needed an outside reagent to activiate it. And that is if you believe that the Entity is not responsible for any gates, or that it doesn't exist. Then I would have to ask you how the Red gate in the clearing was made. Because there is no way that Lavos made that gate.
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What!?! When did Lucca create a time machine? The only thing that reselmbled a 'time machine" was the accident with the teleporter. And that definetely was not in any way shape or form designed to be a time machine. It only worked once, and needed an outside reagent to activiate it.
That's beside the fact. Lots of fantastic inventions/discoveries are made completely by accident. Such as penicillin, for example. However, the fact that Lucca learned the conditions for opening a Time Warp at will is testament to her brilliance. It may not have been a time "machine" in terms of mechanics, but it did the same job.
Also, though it may or may not have happened, I recall the ending in which Crono is dead and the Epoch is destroyed. In order to find her friend, Lucca created yet another time machine.
And that is if you believe that the Entity is not responsible for any gates, or that it doesn't exist. Then I would have to ask you how the Red gate in the clearing was made. Because there is no way that Lavos made that gate.
The Entity is merely a theory. There's no proof to prove that it exists or that it, in fact, created the Time Gates at all. Lucca surmises later in the game that the Time Gates weren't, in fact, made by Lavos, but that doesn't necessarily mean that it was the Entity's doing, either. Possible, but not a fact.
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What!?! When did Lucca create a time machine? The only thing that reselmbled a 'time machine" was the accident with the teleporter. And that definetely was not in any way shape or form designed to be a time machine. It only worked once, and needed an outside reagent to activiate it.
That's beside the fact. Lots of fantastic inventions/discoveries are made completely by accident. Such as penicillin, for example. However, the fact that Lucca learned the conditions for opening a Time Warp at will is testament to her brilliance. It may not have been a time "machine" in terms of mechanics, but it did the same job.
Also, though it may or may not have happened, I recall the ending in which Crono is dead and the Epoch is destroyed. In order to find her friend, Lucca created yet another time machine.
How is that beside the fact? Without the pendant the device would have never worked. So to be truthful, Melchior was just as important to its creation as Lucca. So you meant the gate key. Again no, you don't call the key that unlocks your car a transportation device, you call the car the transportation. The gates have to be there for the key to work, the key does not produce any gates.
I haven't seen that ending in a long while, but it doesn't matter because that occurs after Belthasar gives them Epoch. We are debating whether or not Lucca created a device before Belthasar, not if she can.
And that is if you believe that the Entity is not responsible for any gates, or that it doesn't exist. Then I would have to ask you how the Red gate in the clearing was made. Because there is no way that Lavos made that gate.
The Entity is merely a theory. There's no proof to prove that it exists or that it, in fact, created the Time Gates at all. Lucca surmises later in the game that the Time Gates weren't, in fact, made by Lavos, but that doesn't necessarily mean that it was the Entity's doing, either. Possible, but not a fact.
Thanks for avoiding my question, it just proves my point better. The Entity is clearly discussed twice in the game, it is fact in Chrono Cross, I think it is hard to debate that it is just a theory.
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How is that beside the fact? Without the pendant the device would have never worked. So to be truthful, Melchior was just as important to its creation as Lucca. So you meant the gate key. Again no, you don't call the key that unlocks your car a transportation device, you call the car the transportation. The gates have to be there for the key to work, the key does not produce any gates.
Melchior was indirectly helpful to Lucca's discovery, but Marle's pendant, as we've discovered, isn't the ONLY thing that can spark a Time Gate. However, it can be assumed that Lucca's machine, for whatever reason, can, in fact create Time Gates with the Time Key since it does so twice. That's exactly how a scientific discovery is made. An incident is discovered (sometimes by accident) and then the scientist recreates the conditions exactly to test it. This does not, however, take away the fact that Lucca figured out how the mechanics of Time Gates work and what would be necessary to produce one at will.
It can be argued, then, that Belthasar's device did exactly the same thing--but while in motion. In that sense, Lucca didn't invent a "car key"; she invented a motor, and Belthasar figured out how to build the rest of the car.
I haven't seen that ending in a long while, but it doesn't matter because that occurs after Belthasar gives them Epoch. We are debating whether or not Lucca created a device before Belthasar, not if she can.
Actually, my point WAS to prove that she could.
Thanks for avoiding my question, it just proves my point better. The Entity is clearly discussed twice in the game, it is fact in Chrono Cross, I think it is hard to debate that it is just a theory.
I didn't avoid anything.
The game is mentioned as a THEORY twice in Chrono Trigger. At no point do the characters actually prove that it exists beyond their personal speculation.
And when was the Entity mentioned in Chrono Cross?
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The dream our planet once had
Defeated the darkness and brought forth a brighter future.
However, this was also the dawn of a new nightmare.
The final battle over the legendary treasure, "The Frozen Flame"
A battle between dragons, humans and FATE
That will surpass even space and time is about to begin...
Our Planet's dream has not yet ended...
Deleted by Moderator: Trolling
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The dream our planet once had
Defeated the darkness and brought forth a brighter future.
However, this was also the dawn of a new nightmare.
The final battle over the legendary treasure, "The Frozen Flame"
A battle between dragons, humans and FATE
That will surpass even space and time is about to begin...
Our Planet's dream has not yet ended...
Think of it what you will; ignorance will never be wiped off the face of our planet.
Again, the theory that the Entity is the Planet is not without substance. However, as the Chrono Trigger team are the ones who originally come up with the theory of the Entity, I tend to defer to their analysis of what it was. And, again, they theorize that the Entity, in fact dies at the end of Chrono Trigger. In fact, the goal of the Entity, as they theorize, was not even to defeat Lavos, but instead to relive out its life before it died. Now, you could just say that they were wrong about this, but as I said, since they created the theory in the first place, I tend to believe them.
After you defeat Lavos, in the new Chrono Trigger timeline, the planet was pretty much just fine. This, in my opinion, contradicts the statement that the Planet is the now-dead Entity of which Lucca and Marle spoke and is probably a separate Entity altogether.
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Uh....no? Lucca and Marle only concluded that the "Entity" can be at peace. That doesn't specifically state anything about death, and it probably means that the Entity is dreaming once more.
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Uh....no? Lucca and Marle only concluded that the "Entity" can be at peace. That doesn't specifically state anything about death, and it probably means that the Entity is dreaming once more.
Robo: After 400 years of experience, I have come to think that Lavos may not
be responsible for the Gates.
Marle: What do you mean?
Robo: I have come to think that someone, or something wanted us to see all
this. The different events over time, that we have witnessed. It is almost
as if some entity wanted to relive its past.
Ayla: Ayla know! When people die, elders say, see whole life pass by!
Frog: 'Tis true that mortals do relive their most profound memories before
death claimeth them. Yet those memories most often are sad ones.
Robo: Thinking things like "If only I had done this," or "I shouldn't have
done that..." triggers unpleasant, old memories.
Marle: Will that happen when our time comes?
Lucca: Probably... who knows?
Marle: Is there a point in time you'd want to return to, Lucca?
Lucca: No... not really...
Marle: I'm sorry, was that something I shouldn't have asked?
Lucca: It's ok, it's just something I don't like to think about too much.
Frog: Lavos playeth an integral role in the fortunes of this Entity...
Magus: So who is this Entity?
Robo: It is unknown, whose memories these are. It may be something beyond our comprehension. Our journey may come to an end when we finally discover the
identify of the Entity. Shall we turn in for the night?
--------
Lucca: Do you remember that talk we had?
Marle: You mean about whether our lives flash by before we die?
Lucca: Yeah. I get the feeling that the Entity is finally at rest.
There you have it.
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Keep in mind the Entity was dying because of Lavos. Lavos is destroyed. Entity lives. The dying Entity may be sent to the DBT and THEN die, but the Entity, if it is indeed dying because of Lavos, will live.
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Keep in mind the Entity was dying because of Lavos. Lavos is destroyed. Entity lives. The dying Entity may be sent to the DBT and THEN die, but the Entity, if it is indeed dying because of Lavos, will live.
That's possible, but if the Entity is consistent throughout all timelines (as, no matter how many times you change time in CT, it's omnipresent, apparently) then the defeat of Lavos wouldn't have suddenly made it disappear to the DBT. At least, that's what I think.
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I find it hard to believe that you argue and argue about someone predicting a chain of events, however long it is, and it is very very long, yet you care nothing for the impossiblity of Magic use. Its explained to be possible just as much as Belthasar's plan.
And please people, stop with the idea that the Neo-Epoch can only be used once. There is no proof for that.
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I find it hard to believe that you argue and argue about someone predicting a chain of events, however long it is, and it is very very long, yet you care nothing for the impossiblity of Magic use. Its explained to be possible just as much as Belthasar's plan.
Explained by who to be possible? I thought even ZeaLity agreed that magic in the Chrono universe was not supernatural force, but just a different branch of science. Explained that way, it doesn't sound implausible at all.
And please people, stop with the idea that the Neo-Epoch can only be used once. There is no proof for that.
I've never claimed as much.
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I was refering to Zaper (I think, I won't bother to look back page through page), but the idea that it was a one time use machine was said.
You say that this prediction is impossible, impossible through our perceptions, impossible through our reality, therefore bad storytelling. How could any of us, even with a Super powerful computer, predict all that? For us, it would be impossible.
I bring up the use of magic as a contrast; through our perceptions, our reality, magic is impossible. But just as magic in the Chrono universe is possible, a science even, the same can be said about Belthasar. Its impossible within the context of our reality, but not in theirs. If you complain about one being impossible within the context of our reality, spread it out, do the same with magic, and other such impossiblities.
And Exodus, this is the first time we agreed?
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I would normally agree about the magic statement. However, within the Chrono world, the Zeal term "magic" doesn't refer to supernatural forces the way we accept them. It's not the use of supernatural forces. As ZeaLity put it:
Magic is the fundamental manipulation of the four basic forces of the universe -- Water, Fire, Shadow, and Light. This is the only definition. Since Zeal found so many wondrous applications and uses for magic, and since time is kind of what we're dealing with here, I'm going to leave it at that.
I don't really have to stretch belief to understand that. This isn't the sort of illogical, Harry Potter-style magic of making the interior of cars look bigger than they appear or breaking the physical rules of time and space. Instead of contradicting nature, magic in the Chrono universe is simply a "fundamental manipulation" of it--which is no different than science.
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And Exodus, this is the first time we agreed?
Considering I'm Biz from GameFAQs, yes.
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I'm sorry, but how is magic not supernatural? Time Travel, lifting continents into the air, bringing people back from the dead, building omniscient computers, creating thinking, holy swords, creating blackholes and fire and crap, cloning lost princesses, and so forth.
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I'm sorry, but how is magic not supernatural? Time Travel, lifting continents into the air, bringing people back from the dead, building omniscient computers, creating thinking, holy swords, creating blackholes and fire and crap, cloning lost princesses, and so forth.
The concept of Chrono Trigger is based on the discovery and usage of two unchartered sciences: Time travel and "magic", with the two linking vaguely to one another. Both Lucca and Belthasar, who are gifted scientific engineers, discover the pattern to opening and partially controlling Time Gates through scientific method. (Theory; experimentation; observation; conclusion.) They didn't suddenly create Time Gates from their imagination. They discovered them--much like Newton "discovered" gravity.
Magic, on the other hand, is an ability that is inherited thanks to energies taken from Lavos. In this sense, magic follows one basic rule of science: Magical energy is not created from nothing; it is, instead transformed from Lavos' energy. This is different than, as I mentioned before, magic in the Harry Potter universe. In that universe, if one casts a magic spell, the fire will likely come from nowhere and completely ignore all physical laws. In the Chrono universe, people mentally command the fire to exist with assistance from Lavos' energies. So basically, this is more along the lines of psychokinesis than actual magic. So, basically, we assume that the Zeal Kingdom simply created a new branch of scientific study.
Also, keep in mind that the Ruby Knife/Masamune was created from Dreamstone. Dreamstone, the "Red Rock" had completely unknown properties of its own. It's mentioned as the rock which "creates dreams" or something like that in Chrono Trigger and it was what was originally responsible for the primitive apes' sudden outbreak of intelligence. Masa, Mune, and Doreen's personalities were probably drawn from these rocks with the help of more of Lavos' power (remember that even a SMALL piece of Lavos has pieces of sentience). That's really the only explanation I can offer, because the game doesn't give us another one.
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Magic doesn't use Lavos energies. It is the fundamental manipulation of the four basic properties of the universe; there are innates, who can do it naturally, and regular humans, who require a power source. The royal family of Zeal, the Gurus, and a few others were innates, while the rest of Zeal depended on the Sun Stone at first, then the Mammon Machine.
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I never claimed my sig to be true. Nor did I say that you or anyone else used the word "offensive". I meant my sig as a joke. I even SAID so in my first post in this thread. Obviously, though, people didn't like it, so I got rid of it.
Magic doesn't use Lavos energies. It is the fundamental manipulation of the four basic properties of the universe; there are innates, who can do it naturally, and regular humans, who require a power source. The royal family of Zeal, the Gurus, and a few others were innates, while the rest of Zeal depended on the Sun Stone at first, then the Mammon Machine.
If I remember correctly, EVERYONE needed inital exposure to Mammon energy at first. So in other words, the energies used in magic were transferred to humans who were worthy of them from the Mammon Machine. And where exactly did the Mammon Machine's original energy come from? Lavos. Therefore, unlocking magical abilities originally requires exposure to Lavos' energy at which point the person using it will be able to do so forever (making them Enlightened Ones). People who weren't sensitive to Lavos' energies (taken from the Mammon machine) couldn't use magic at all and, so, were Earthbound Ones.
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http://www.chronocompendium.com/Forums/viewtopic.php?t=629
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Magic is the fundamental manipulation of the four basic forces of the universe -- Water, Fire, Shadow, and Light. This is the only definition. Since Zeal found so many wondrous applications and uses for magic, and since time is kind of what we're dealing with here, I'm going to leave it at that.
And this is impossible within our reality. No matter how much science we learn, we will never be able to do this. Yet it is "science" in the Chrono universe, it is very much possible there. If you don't think its a big streach to think that people can use their minds to create Fire, Ice, Lightning, and Giant Frogs falling from the sky, that's your problem.
And not all magic comes from Lavos.
And Biz agrees with me! This is a day of remmberance!
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Okay. I don't see how what's said in that topic rejects my explanation of magic. We learn in Chrono Trigger that the people of Zeal are able to sustain their society and impart the ability of magic on people by exposing them to the energy of the Mammon machine. This is how humans are able to use magic, but that does not account for Mystics or other beasts.
Now, I'm not saying that magic is ENTIRELY made up of Lavos' power. Insted, I'm asserting that the way people use magic is through physical and/or mental enhancement due to the exposure of an external energy source (a Sun Stone, Mammon energy, or Spekkio's power). This changes the person to allow them to summon (one of) the four elements (the cornerstones of magic) through psychokinetic energy. This is akin to the Hulk's comic book origin: He's hit with Gamma radiation, and the radiation radically alters his DNA and allows him to turn big, green and ferocious. He doesn't NEED to tap into gamma energy every time he uses his powers, but the change allows him to play with energies that he orignally wasn't able to.
This pretty much goes hand-in-hand with what you said yourself:
Magic is fundamental, and these artifacts were merely an amplifier – in Zeal's case, perhaps granting immortality at the Mammon Machine's full power, and also allowing all the citizens to practice magic.
And this is impossible within our reality. No matter how much science we learn, we will never be able to do this. Yet it is "science" in the Chrono universe, it is very much possible there. If you don't think its a big streach to think that people can use their minds to create Fire, Ice, Lightning, and Giant Frogs falling from the sky, that's your problem.
That's because psychokinesis is an actually field of study in the real world. No one's been able to PROVE it's possible yet, but we do study it within the confines of science.
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1.) Spekkio didn't do anything but teach Magic. He didn't expose Crono to anything.
2.) That's because [causality] is an actually field of study in the real world. No one's been able to PROVE it's possible yet, but we do study it within the confines of science.
I don't see why you keep trying. Magic exists, and is possible, in the Chrono universe due to reasons within a fictional universe. Belthasar can make his predictions due to reasons within a fictional universe.
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1.) Spekkio didn't do anything but teach Magic. He didn't expose Crono to anything.
How do you know that? Spekkio's true abilities aren't known to anyone.
2.) That's because [causality] is an actually field of study in the real world. No one's been able to PROVE it's possible yet, but we do study it within the confines of science.
Science is pretty much causality as backed up by experimentation and physical evidence. For example, causality is saying "if I let go of an apple, it will fall to ground". However, this does not HAVE to be true if the conditions surrounding it are vague. If I'm underwater, the apple will actually probably float when I let it go. However, if I'm standing on the ground, and gravity is in place, and there are NO OTHER forces acting on the apple, science has shown that there is an almost certain probability that it will fall.
I don't see why you keep trying. Magic exists, and is possible, in the Chrono universe due to reasons within a fictional universe. Belthasar can make his predictions due to reasons within a fictional universe.
There's nothing about "magic" in the Chrono universe that cannot be accepted if we introduce a simple alien concept that differentiates it from the real world. Those alien concepts being Lavos' energy and Dreamstone. Neither exists in the real world, but, as they're introduced in the Chrono universe, their concepts allow for the bending of a limited number of rules in reality. Belthasar's plan, however, defies even the rules that the story provides. ZeaLity mentioned his "five factors" of why he believes Bel's plan could work, while I don't think those factors are enough.
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How do you know that? Spekkio's true abilities aren't known to anyone.
Answer: What does the game say after Spekkio "gives" a character magic? This: "Crono learns Magic", or "Lucca learns Magic". Notice the word "learn" in there. He teachs magic.
Science is pretty much causality as backed up by experimentation and physical evidence. For example, causality is saying "if I let go of an apple, it will fall to ground". However, this does not HAVE to be true if the conditions surrounding it are vague. If I'm underwater, the apple will actually probably float when I let it go. However, if I'm standing on the ground, and gravity is in place, and there are NO OTHER forces acting on the apple, science has shown that there is an almost certain probability that it will fall.
This brings up the problem of decution, but i'll not go there. What I was refering to is ideas of causality as it applies to time travel. Such as the grandfather paradox.
There's nothing about "magic" in the Chrono universe that cannot be accepted if we introduce a simple alien concept that differentiates it from the real world. Those alien concepts being Lavos' energy and Dreamstone. Neither exists in the real world, but, as they're introduced in the Chrono universe, their concepts allow for the bending of a limited number of rules in reality. Belthasar's plan, however, defies even the rules that the story provides. ZeaLity mentioned his "five factors" of why he believes Bel's plan could work, while I don't think those factors are enough.
Do you not see that you accept magic due to a fictional attribute, yet discard the other due to a fictional attribute? Such as the ablity to time travel, and having the majority of history that he wanted to alter already having taken place, and plenty of data on all entities envolved to predict how they will react to a certain situation.
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Answer: What does the game say after Spekkio "gives" a character magic? This: "Crono learns Magic", or "Lucca learns Magic". Notice the word "learn" in there. He teachs magic.
We don't know what Spekkio DID to teach them. For all we know, Spekkio has psychic powers and taught them that way.
This brings up the problem of decution, but i'll not go there. What I was refering to is ideas of causality as it applies to time travel. Such as the grandfather paradox.
And that was my point to begin with. Chrono Cross' stance on time travel is that cause and effect are NOT set. You can change either one of them at any given time and have widely different results. In Chronopolis, we're even told that when FATE tried to gain information about Lavos by looking at alternate timelines (alternate patterns of cause and effect), the information was "volatile". Meaning that it was radically different each time.
Do you not see that you accept magic due to a fictional attribute, yet discard the other due to a fictional attribute? Such as the ablity to time travel, and having the majority of history that he wanted to alter already having taken place, and plenty of data on all entities envolved to predict how they will react to a certain situation.
Time travel is not proven to be impossible. However, Chrono Cross takes the position that time travel is actually dimension-hopping. When you travel back in time and change something, you're actually in an entirely new dimension/reality/timeline. In this sense, you're not really changing the past, but instead changing a reality with similar conditions to the past. This, actually, is what most time travel scholars consider to be the most likely element of time travel. The only problem is that we can't really prove that alternate dimensions exist--much less that you can travel to them.
That's why I can accept it, but not Belthasar's plan.
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We don't know what Spekkio DID to teach them. For all we know, Spekkio has psychic powers and taught them that way.
Yeah, that seems likely...
Time travel is not proven to be impossible.
Time Travel has not been proven to be possible either.
However, Chrono Cross takes the position that time travel is actually dimension-hopping.
What? No, your wrong. Chrono Cross doesn't say that changing the past creates an entirely new dimension! Dimensional creations are special cases, there are only 3 (4 if you count RD) dimensions at the time of CC: Home, Another, and Reptite. Miguel said as much that when you change the past, the future isn't split. He said that the "old" future is sent to the DBT, and a new one is created.
That's why I can accept it, but not Belthasar's plan.
Not his plan, even though its explicitly stated to be? He is the Guru of Reason, and that implies emense wisdom. He has plenty of data to look back over time, and see how the entities involved reacted to situations. He had plenty of data to know that the Planet didn't like humans as much as it did Reptites. The Reptite already existed, so he could have known about it. And I don't see why the possiblity of Belthasar using time travel to alter his work in progess has been thrown out by you. If his plan intially screws up badly, he merely has to time travel AGAIN and undo his change.
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I still think there are more than those 4 dimensions. Kid states that she'll look for Serge "In any time, in any dimension". By using any, it makes it seem like theres more than one and alot. Not really saying that there'd be more than one time devourer. Possibly that Home World and Another world were the only dimensions where Lavos devourered Schala to make the TD. In other dimensions, possibly he was automatically destroyed.
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Zaper, since when is Kid an authority on temporal mechianics?
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Okay. I don't see how what's said in that topic rejects my explanation of magic. We learn in Chrono Trigger that the people of Zeal are able to sustain their society and impart the ability of magic on people by exposing them to the energy of the Mammon machine. This is how humans are able to use magic, but that does not account for Mystics or other beasts.
- Magic cannot be used by anything which predates Lavos's arrival in 65 million BC.
- The Enlightened Ones of Zeal are given powers by the Sun Stone and later the Mammon Machine.
- After the fall of Zeal, the Enlightened Ones suddenly lost their abilities, but the Zealian elite (Janus, Zeal, Schala, Dalton and the Gurus) did not.
- Mystics and monsters in all time periods following 65 million BC can use Magic and related abilities although they have not had any direct contact with the Sun Stone or Mammon Machine.
- Spekkio is able to impart the time travelers with magical abilities, except for Ayla, because she originated before Magic was invented, and Robo, because he is non-living.
- Magic works in 65 million BC before Lavos's arrival and in 2400 AD when Lavos is dead.[/list:u]
We can conclude that:
- Magic is an inherent, natural ability of numerous living things which are born after the arrival of Lavos, and is likely a genetic trait which arose due to Lavos's genetic manipulation of all life on earth.
- Although the origin of magic is tied to Lavos, the use of magic is not dependant on Lavos or its energy because magic can be used in areas outside of Lavos's influence, such as 65 million BC, the End of Time and 2400 AD after Lavos's defeat.
- In 12000 BC, the Enlightened Ones are granted Magic abilities as long as they are exposed to the energy of the Sun Stone or Mammon Machine, whereas the Earthbound Ones are not. This suggests that the Enlightened Ones have a limited version of the "magic gene" which allows them to utilize an outside source of magical energy.
- A small number of Zealians have powers which are independent of the Sun Stone or Mammon Machine. The abilities of the Mystics, monsters, and the time travelers are also independent of an outside energy source. This suggests that they have a stronger version of the "magic gene".
- Spekkio could only awaken or unlock existing latent magical ability in the time travelers, and could not grant magical ability where not already exists. We know this because Spekkio could not grant magic to Ayla, who was born before the arrival of Lavos. Spekkio also could not give Robo magic, because machines have different abilities than living things.[/list:u]
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I still think there are more than those 4 dimensions. Kid states that she'll look for Serge "In any time, in any dimension". By using any, it makes it seem like theres more than one and alot. Not really saying that there'd be more than one time devourer. Possibly that Home World and Another world were the only dimensions where Lavos devourered Schala to make the TD. In other dimensions, possibly he was automatically destroyed.
I don't think that quote meant anything besides her devotion to finding Serge.
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I still think there are more than those 4 dimensions. Kid states that she'll look for Serge "In any time, in any dimension". By using any, it makes it seem like theres more than one and alot. Not really saying that there'd be more than one time devourer. Possibly that Home World and Another world were the only dimensions where Lavos devourered Schala to make the TD. In other dimensions, possibly he was automatically destroyed.
I don't think that quote meant anything besides her devotion to finding Serge.
agreed
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Yeah, that seems likely...
But we don't know.
Time Travel has not been proven to be possible either.
Evolution isn't completely proven, either. But, there are theories based on physical evidence which support it. Similarly, Einstein himself had theories on time travel.
What? No, your wrong. Chrono Cross doesn't say that changing the past creates an entirely new dimension! Dimensional creations are special cases, there are only 3 (4 if you count RD) dimensions at the time of CC: Home, Another, and Reptite. Miguel said as much that when you change the past, the future isn't split. He said that the "old" future is sent to the DBT, and a new one is created.
Exactly. So, in other words, you're in a NEW timeline while the old one is sent to the Tesseract. I never said anything about what HAPPENS to the old dimension after the new one is created. But, nonetheless, any decision (or change) in time results in one of the two being "replaced", thus created a "new" timeline.
Not his plan, even though its explicitly stated to be? He is the Guru of Reason, and that implies emense wisdom.
Yes, but again, reason does not work in the Chrono Cross universe in regards to time travel. Chrono Cross's entire position on time is that it's unpredictable, fluid, and "volatile". And that completely contradicts that "reason" can suddenly map it out entirely.
He has plenty of data to look as it did Reptites. The Reptite already existed, so he could have known about it.
Yes, but Dinopolis didn't. Nor did a universe where Lavos never fell. Basically, that time should have already been in the Tesseract waiting for deletion, along with billions upon billions of others.
And I don't see why the possiblity of Belthasar using time travel to alter his work in progess has beenback over time, and see how the entities involved reacted to situations. He had plenty of data to know that the Planet didn't like humans as much thrown out by you. If his plan intially screws up badly, he merely has to time travel AGAIN and undo his change.
The reason I don't like this theory is because there are too many "what ifs" that go along with it. If he had the ability to travel in time and "experiment" whenever he wanted, why didn't he simply enlist the Chrono Team (or even Magus, who was DESPERATELY looking for his sister) for help? Why make a complex scheme to do everything when he could simply achieve the same goal with a more hands-on approach? Better yet, why not simply go back to 12,000 AD and stop Schala from disappearing in the first place?
Also, there'd be no way he could "reboot" or retry his experiment if it failed. For the "plan" to work, he'd have to do it all in one go. After he left 2300 AD, with Another World already created, there'd be no original time to go back to in order to try it over again.
To GreyLensman.
I agree with those theories. When I said "does not account" for, I simply meant that they were the exceptions to the rule.
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Well im a believer in game evidance. If a character says something is true, then it's true because it is stated. I'm not one of you fanfiction readers who reads Chrono fanfiction and then get's my own ideas that don't work on the basis of game evidance. In other words, fanfiction to me = rubbish :P, but some are well written.
@ Gray
.... Robo isn't non-living... He's non organic....
And where does it say that the Zealians magic derived of the Sun stone? I can't remember any of that. All I remember is that Zeal was powered by the Sun stone (To make it float).
Also on Dalton, does he really not lose his magic? All we see him do is shoot fire at heros (it could just be a gun or a bomb cuz since when can a fire bolt be deflected?) and the Golem Boss may not have anything to do with Dalton since it came out by itself.
"and the time travelers are also independent of an outside energy source. This suggests that they have a stronger version of the "magic gene"
Why do they need to have a magic gene? All Spekkio did was teach them the proper way, unlike the Zealians who simply channaled Lavos' energy. Besides the point that a few people believe that the time travellers do not have true magic, which is Shadow. In other words, from Shadow magic we get lightning, water/ice and fire when its split up. So in other words, Crono and co. except Ayla, Robo and Magus do not have multi-tasking magic.
Also about Spekkio, wasn't it just Gaspar who thought that they had a good heart so he told them to enter Spekkio's room so he could teach them because they had the will etc.
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A Zealian says that he no longer needs the tired energies of the planet. The Japanese version is clearer on this, stating that the planet's elemental energy is being dropped in favor of Lavos's emanations.
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Elemental eh.... Elements.... CC >.> Wait, we already have an elemental place in Zeal... But it was sealed...
Also, if we're going to start playing the translation game, then we might aswell ditch all our current theories and start learning japanese and then make new theories from whats stated in the japanese version of CT and CC.
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Evolution isn't completely proven, either. But, there are theories based on physical evidence which support it. Similarly, Einstein himself had theories on time travel.
Please, don't get me started on Evolution...
Yes, but again, reason does not work in the Chrono Cross universe in regards to time travel. Chrono Cross's entire position on time is that it's unpredictable, fluid, and "volatile". And that completely contradicts that "reason" can suddenly map it out entirely.
Incorrect. The point of Chrono Cross, and Trigger, is that time is changable. Not unpredictable. The fact that its series canon that it is Belthasar's plan disproves the notion of time being unpredictable. The theme is people are free to change their future.
Yes, but Dinopolis didn't. Nor did a universe where Lavos never fell. Basically, that time should have already been in the Tesseract waiting for deletion, along with billions upon billions of others.
Incorrect. Although we don't understand the means and whys of dimensional creation, we do know that the Reptite dimension was created before Lavos crashed. So that dimension was even in existance during CT. The Reptite Dimension was there all along. Remmber, dimensional creations are special cases that defy the normal rules of timeline creation.
The reason I don't like this theory is because there are too many "what ifs" that go along with it. If he had the ability to travel in time and "experiment" whenever he wanted, why didn't he simply enlist the Chrono Team (or even Magus, who was DESPERATELY looking for his sister) for help? Why make a complex scheme to do everything when he could simply achieve the same goal with a more hands-on approach? Better yet, why not simply go back to 12,000 AD and stop Schala from disappearing in the first place?
1-Because his plan needed the Arbiter of the Flame, Serge. If he simply wanted to kill the TD, he probably would have, but he did.
2-Because his plan needed the Arbiter of the Flame, Serge. Plus, hes an old man!
3-We have several answers. One, this would have not stopped the Time Devourer from being created, since Schala had already been transported to the DBT to merge with Lavos. Two, how would he have been able to? Hes an old man. Three, the Time Bastard theory makes this impossible. When the original Schala was transported to the DBT, the second version of Schala should be removed at the time the original one is removed. Read up on the Time Bastard theory for proof and arguements on its behalf, I don't wish to discuss it here.
Also, there'd be no way he could "reboot" or retry his experiment if it failed. For the "plan" to work, he'd have to do it all in one go. After he left 2300 AD, with Another World already created, there'd be no original time to go back to in order to try it over again.
... How? He could easily retry his experiments. Another World isn't the one thats created, Home is the false world. Another is the original one.
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Please, don't get me started on Evolution...
I didn't plan to.
Incorrect. The point of Chrono Cross, and Trigger, is that time is changable. Not unpredictable. The fact that its series canon that it is Belthasar's plan disproves the notion of time being unpredictable. The theme is people are free to change their future.
And the fact that ANYONE or ANYTHING can change the future somehow does NOT make time unpredictable?
Incorrect. Although we don't understand the means and whys of dimensional creation, we do know that the Reptite dimension was created before Lavos crashed. So that dimension was even in existance during CT. The Reptite Dimension was there all along. Remmber, dimensional creations are special cases that defy the normal rules of timeline creation.
Thus my problem with the Dinopolis dimension. We don't know where it came from, how it was created, or for what reason it survived being sent to the Darkness of Time since Lavos fell to Earth. By all rights, it should have been sent to the Tesseract. But, it wasn't for reasons we're never given. The "rules" of timeline creation (as you put it) were broken for this exception in order to make the story fit. And that is my precise gripe.
1-Because his plan needed the Arbiter of the Flame, Serge. If he simply wanted to kill the TD, he probably would have, but he did.
The Arbiter of Time's entire purpose was to, in fact, destroy the Time Devourer and free Schala by wielding the Chrono Cross. Serge himself wasn't special. Anyone could have been an Arbiter if they fit certain conditions.
2-Because his plan needed the Arbiter of the Flame, Serge. Plus, hes an old man!
I didn't say he should fight himself. Just that he could have been more active in the whole deal.
3-We have several answers. One, this would have not stopped the Time Devourer from being created, since Schala had already been transported to the DBT to merge with Lavos. Two, how would he have been able to? Hes an old man. Three, the Time Bastard theory makes this impossible. When the original Schala was transported to the DBT, the second version of Schala should be removed at the time the original one is removed. Read up on the Time Bastard theory for proof and arguements on its behalf, I don't wish to discuss it here.
I'll have to read it later. But for now, let me address the theory that the Tesseract is somehow an exception to time change. If it were, Schala wouldn't have been able to be sucked into it in the first place. Again, time is nothing but cause and effect. If the dimension were truly timeless, than Schala should have been there the whole time and the "ticking clock" element of the Time Devourer's slow destruction of all reality wouldn't have been necessary.
... How? He could easily retry his experiments. Another World isn't the one thats created, Home is the false world. Another is the original one.
The Time Crash creates Another World. It didn't exist prior to that. The Time Crash was caused by Belthasar--hence, he created Another World. Kid later creates Home World by saving Serge's life.
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Thus my problem with the Dinopolis dimension. We don't know where it came from, how it was created, or for what reason it survived being sent to the Darkness of Time since Lavos fell to Earth. By all rights, it should have been sent to the Tesseract. But, it wasn't for reasons we're never given. The "rules" of timeline creation (as you put it) were broken for this exception in order to make the story fit. And that is my precise gripe.
I agree with you that it should have been sent to the DBT. Dimensional creation bugs me, and alot of other people here. It seems to be a sort of Time Error, but beyond that, it confuses me. But its still part of the story, and must be accepted.
The Arbiter of Time's entire purpose was to, in fact, destroy the Time Devourer and free Schala by wielding the Chrono Cross. Serge himself wasn't special. Anyone could have been an Arbiter if they fit certain conditions.
Actaully, one being the Arbiter of the Flame* simply allows one contact with the Frozen Flame. Serge wasn't special until he was granted Arbiter status. He was also special because of his realtionship to Schala.
The Time Crash creates Another World. It didn't exist prior to that. The Time Crash was caused by Belthasar--hence, he created Another World. Kid later creates Home World by saving Serge's life.
He could have gone back and prevented the Time Crash...
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It could possibly be explained like this: The reason cuz the Dinopolis dimension didn't go to the Tesseract, imho, is cuz the Tesseract is only home to "erased" timelines from a same dimension, though it feels pretty inconsistent since the definitions of dimensions and timelines look pretty similar in some ways and pretty different in others. Now, Dinopolis comes from another dimension with its own timeline(s) and prolly it's own Tesseract, which would be free of any Time Devourer for if Lavos didn't fall on earth Schala never even came to existence, so the fusion to create the TD never happened there. As i said it feels really inconsistent, this thing about many dimensions with many internal timelines, i mean... Any more idea about it?
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I agree with you that it should have been sent to the DBT. Dimensional creation bugs me, and alot of other people here. It seems to be a sort of Time Error, but beyond that, it confuses me. But its still part of the story, and must be accepted.
Agreed . . . with reservations.
Actaully, one being the Arbiter of the Flame* simply allows one contact with the Frozen Flame. Serge wasn't special until he was granted Arbiter status. He was also special because of his realtionship to Schala.
Well, his "specialness" was a Catch-22. He was special because he was the Arbiter. He was the Arbiter because he was special. Chicken. Egg.
He could have gone back and prevented the Time Crash...
No, because, once he set FATE in motion, he in was the Back to the Future Part 2 loop. If he goes back in time and winds up in Another World, then the timeline in which the Time Crash actually happened is gone. Going back to 2300 AD or later will now be Another World's future instead.
It could possibly be explained like this: The reason cuz the Dinopolis dimension didn't go to the Tesseract, imho, is cuz the Tesseract is only home to "erased" timelines from a same dimension, though it feels pretty inconsistent since the definitions of dimensions and timelines look pretty similar in some ways and pretty different in others. Now, Dinopolis comes from another dimension with its own timeline(s) and prolly it's own Tesseract, which would be free of any Time Devourer for if Lavos didn't fall on earth Schala never even came to existence, so the fusion to create the TD never happened there. As i said it feels really inconsistent, this thing about many dimensions with many internal timelines, i mean... Any more idea about it?
Actually, there's only supposed to be one Tesseract. At least, as I understand the plot, anyway.
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No, because, once he set FATE in motion, he in was the Back to the Future Part 2 loop. If he goes back in time and winds up in Another World, then the timeline in which the Time Crash actually happened is gone. Going back to 2300 AD or later will now be Another World's future instead.
It would be more or less the same.
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Well, that was FATE's ambition. But obviously, FATE ran into difficulties.
Plus, once again, the nature of time travel tells us that anything could have changed at anytime.
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Really? 600ad didn't radically change when Crono when to the Prehistoric era and changed things. CT shows that time flow isn't as irratic as you think.
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That's very true. 600AD and other timelines seem to go on by themselves as if they're not even linked to the past or future anymore.
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Actually, there's only supposed to be one Tesseract. At least, as I understand the plot, anyway.
Yeah, i thought that too... but now i'm not so sure O_o cuz u see, besides that crappy theory i just mentioned there's one more thing that's bugging me now that i thaught of it... if every dimension had the same tesseract, then every dimension would be in danger by the existance of the TD, and the TD would be not only a time devourer but a dimension devourer too... and, kinda, the Dragon God, which was the Reptites counterpart for humanity's FATE only got in contact with the TD when it was divided into the 6 lesser dragons, by the power of the frozen flame used by fate.. What i'm trying to say is: if there was only one Tesseract that would fit every dimension couldn't the so powerful dragon god have accounted its existence in its own dimension and tryed to destroy it? i mean, belthasaar found out about the TD, i think the dragon god could possibly find out about it pretty easier than belthasaar did...
And another thought: if there was only one DBT, there could be many TD inside there, not to say other Lavos-like creatures or even more powerful and almighty beings that were "eliminated" before even coming to exist... The so pure possibility subject that is seen in CC...
After all the idea that there is one Tesseract per dimension feels more logic o_O at least to me XD and at least for now o.o
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Really? 600ad didn't radically change when Crono when to the Prehistoric era and changed things. CT shows that time flow isn't as irratic as you think.
But, he really DIDN'T change anything in the Prehistoric era in Chrono Trigger. Really, he was just sort of in the background as history played itself out. And anyway, that's Chrono Trigger -- which takes far less strides to justify temporal mechanics.
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Actually, there's only supposed to be one Tesseract. At least, as I understand the plot, anyway.
Yeah, i thought that too... but now i'm not so sure O_o cuz u see, besides that crappy theory i just mentioned there's one more thing that's bugging me now that i thaught of it... if every dimension had the same tesseract, then every dimension would be in danger by the existance of the TD, and the TD would be not only a time devourer but a dimension devourer too...
Well, yeah, that was actually the point.
and, kinda, the Dragon God, which was the Reptites counterpart for humanity's FATE only got in contact with the TD when it was divided into the 6 lesser dragons, by the power of the frozen flame used by fate.. What i'm trying to say is: if there was only one Tesseract that would fit every dimension couldn't the so powerful dragon god have accounted its existence in its own dimension and tryed to destroy it? i mean, belthasaar found out about the TD, i think the dragon god could possibly find out about it pretty easier than belthasaar did...
And another thought: if there was only one DBT, there could be many TD inside there, not to say other Lavos-like creatures or even more powerful and almighty beings that were "eliminated" before even coming to exist... The so pure possibility subject that is seen in CC...
After all the idea that there is one Tesseract per dimension feels more logic o_O at least to me XD and at least for now o.o
And now you can see why I have issues with Belthasar's plan, the existence of the Dinopolis dimension and all of that. It's hard for me to believe that so many infinite variables were so easily controlled.
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Really? 600ad didn't radically change when Crono when to the Prehistoric era and changed things. CT shows that time flow isn't as irratic as you think.
But, he really DIDN'T change anything in the Prehistoric era in Chrono Trigger. Really, he was just sort of in the background as history played itself out. And anyway, that's Chrono Trigger -- which takes far less strides to justify temporal mechanics.
What, now your discounting CHRONO TRIGGER?
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What, now your discounting CHRONO TRIGGER?
Not at all. I'm just stating that the two portrayed time travel in two different ways.
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Chrono Trigger and Chrono Cross are linked continuities; One is the sequel to the other! If something works one way in CT, it should work the same way in CC.
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shewsh another little thaught following my reverie about the tesseract being home only to timelines inside the same dimension... if there is a Tesseract per dimension, then when the Dinopolis timeline "X" was pulled off the Dinopolis dimension to form a new hybrid timeline (that would be Keystone T-2) inside the original Crono, Serge and co's dimension by being fused with the Keystone T-1 timeline would a version of the Dinopolis timeline "X" be created inside the Dinopolis dimension version of the DBT, or would the same Dinopolis timeline "X" be splitten in 2 (pretty much like keystone t-2 was when kid saved serge) one going to the Dinopolis dimension DBT and the other goin' to Crono n' co's dimension, both being like 2 "mini-dimensions"(timelines) pretty much like Home n' Another inside the "big" original dimension, but instead of being parallel being perpendicular and in different realities? (i'm using concepts that timelines are like "mini-dimensions", a fraction of the "mother-reality/dimension", so Another is a "mini-dimension" inside crono n' co's reality/dimension, while Home is an anomaly "mini-dimension", limited by its own lack of past and with a unstable future which can be experienced at the dead sea and that runs parallel to Another inside crono n' co's reality/dimension)
Now if there was only one DBT for all dimensions, there would be a huge paradox, since by being pulled off its dimension, Dinopolis timeline"X" was eliminated from Dinopolis dimension, and then the Dinopolis timeline "X" would end up in the multi-dimensional Tesseract, but at the same time another (actually the same) Dinopolis timeline "X" would come to the Crono n' co's dimension and would be fused with the Keystone T-1 timeline when the time crash occured to form the Keystone T-2... In that case there'd be 2 Dinopolis timelines "X" existing together in a same dimensional reality in a determined point of space-time continua, and that'd be self-contradictory for Dinopolis timeline "X" would have been erased but wouldn't have either...
Something that one could quite conclude is... There are more "levels" of space-time reality than just the explicit "timelines" and "dimensions"... At least three one could identify: A "mother-dimension", reality itself which could be divided into many timelines, which by their turn could be divided once more into those "mini-dimensions", like Home and Another... and who knows how many more fractions could be created... o.o
sry, couldnt stop my blabbering :/ and i tried! tried hard! :0
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Chrono Trigger and Chrono Cross are linked continuities; One is the sequel to the other! If something works one way in CT, it should work the same way in CC.
That's not exactly true. Chrono Cross is dependent on Chrono Trigger to make its story work. Chrono Trigger is not dependent on Chrono Cross in the same way.
Now, I'm not saying they're not linked. I'm saying that CT is the more self-contained of the two. But, that's to be expected, considering that an example of a series with "self-contained" sequels are mostly stories like Final Fantasy.
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Well, I certainly hope that anyone who actually sees faults in my logic or arguments will speak up and say so and then show me where the faultiness is.. Though I argue my opinions to the best of my ability, that doesn't mean that I don't accept the possibility that they can be wrong.
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Alright, I'm super pissed. I don't check the Compendium for 2, count em TWO, days and this blows up w/5-6 whole new pages...Reading through all that back-and-forth garbage was NOT how I wanted to spend the morning before my 21st b-day (but I did anyways because i'm a hapless loser w/nothing else to do :P)...I mean, geeze! I had to take friggin NOTES as I went along...And you (should) KNOW how I don't like notes...
Black Mage: What is this, some kinda study group of lame? Who takes notes? Seriously.
But anyways...onto my friggin notes...
1) When Lucca & Marle talk about the Entity being at rest, this does not mean that the Entity is dead. This has actually been discussed before...Notice how in CT it mentions how much the Planet's dreaming? Yeah, end game the Entity is at rest...coincidence? Yeah, it's sleeping, in a state of comfort and ease...not dead...it already died before and thanks to the creation of a few gates, it managed to save itself...ugh...Refer to #3
2) Einstein's theories on time travel only state that traveling into the future has any sort of a possibility.
3) King Zeal, I think it's about time we introduce you to Occam's razor...
4) King Zeal (and anybody who may be doing it), USE THE FRIGGIN EDIT BUTTON INSTEAD OF DOUBLE POSTING!!! This thread does NOT need to be that much larger, y'know?
5) AuraTwilight (and anybody who may be doing it), sticking up for people is cool 'n' all and I can respect that, but "The way you act, you're no better than he is." was quite the ironic statement...not to mention that that whole section of the thread is white noise bordering on spam that you should have just PMed Exodus about.
Oh yeah, and I love you all, my precious babies! And by that, I mean I hate you and I want to eat you like I'd like to eat babies! :twisted: MMMmmmm...The veal of the human meatbag world...Uh, pay no attention to the man behind the curtain! Er...I mean this part of this post...it's late...and I'm hungry!
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Alright, I'm super pissed. I don't check the
1) When Lucca & Marle talk about the Entity being at rest, this does not mean that the Entity is dead. This has actually been discussed before...Notice how in CT it mentions how much the Planet's dreaming? Yeah, end game the Entity is at rest...coincidence? Yeah, it's sleeping, in a state of comfort and ease...not dead...it already died before and thanks to the creation of a few gates, it managed to save itself...ugh...Refer to #3
Actually, no, I don't remember CT mentioning the Planet dreaming that much. But, as I said earlier, my memory is very sketchy at the moment.
Barring that, I definitely consider that theory possibility, but I don't see why the Entity being "dead" is not a valid possibility as well, especially since the entire concept of the Entity's motives was based on recall in the final moments of life.
2) Einstein's theories on time travel only state that traveling into the future has any sort of a possibility.
I know that. But, my point is that it's a concept that has been theorized by several people. Einstein being only one of them. That was the only point I was trying to make. I wasn't trying to say that Einstein's theory was right.
3) King Zeal, I think it's about time we introduce you to Occam's razor...
Now that's a term I haven't heard since my freshman year in college. :D I forgot what it meant until I looked it up on Wikipedia. But actually, when it comes to story-writing, I try to use Occam's razor religiously.
4) King Zeal (and anybody who may be doing it), USE THE FRIGGIN EDIT BUTTON INSTEAD OF DOUBLE POSTING!!! This thread does NOT need to be that much larger, y'know?
My bad. I didn't know if this forum had a rule against it.
You can't try to indoctrinate someone because he is iconoclastic.
Were you speaking of myself or Exodus, ZeaLity?
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but I don't see why the Entity being "dead" is not a valid possibility as well
Well obviously because that would, as you said, make the Entity=the Planet not make sense :P
I know that. But, my point is that it's a concept that has been theorized by several people. Einstein being only one of them. That was the only point I was trying to make. I wasn't trying to say that Einstein's theory was right.
Okay, I didn't think so, I was, more or less, just stating it anyways then.
My bad. I didn't know if this forum had a rule against it (double posting).
I dunno if it's an actual rule or anything, but in threads that get this big, it's practically common courtesy.
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Well obviously because that would, as you said, make the Entity=the Planet not make sense :P
Haha. Yeah, I prefer that the Entity remains "ambiguous" myself, but I don't discount the other possibilities.
I dunno if it's an actual rule or anything, but in threads that get this big, it's practically common courtesy.
No problem, then.
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Damn Resident Evil 4, I can't stop playing!
I haven't seen that ending in a long while, but it doesn't matter because that occurs after Belthasar gives them Epoch. We are debating whether or not Lucca created a device before Belthasar, not if she can.
Actually, my point WAS to prove that she could.
Lucca did the same thing. BEFORE he did, in fact. This isn't really proof of pioneering brilliance (though, I do NOT deny that he IS brilliant) because of the fact that he simply took previously-existing scientific data and used it to make a new machine.
That line was what sparked my argument. So yes, you did.
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The point I was trying to make was whether or not time-travel had already been an established phenomenon before Belthasar built the Epoch. And yes, it was. Even if Lucca built the second time machine (in the ending) AFTER gaining the Epoch from Belthasar, the Belthasar I'm arguing against (in the new future) is the one who built the Neo Epoch. He wouldn't remember building the first Epoch at all. However, the fact that it's called the "Neo" Epoch indicates that he was aware that the technology existed previously.
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Its because he began work of his Wings of Time in Zeal...
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Right. But the time-travel element obviously hadn't been finished yet.
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We don't know what he had finished at that point.
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That's a good point.
Also, the Gaspar did know what a Time Gate was when they were sent back in time. (However, he WAS the Guru of Time, so it's not surprising.)
But, the Epoch hadn't been finished at the time and, since Belthasar already knew how to build a flying ship (like the Blackbird), the only other thing that would take time to finish would be the time-travel mechanism.
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Gaspar first called it a dimensional warp, then called it a time gate.. So WTF >.>
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Can you tell the difference? I don't think I could when put into the situation... @.@
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Can you tell the difference? I don't think I could when put into the situation... @.@
If I was told of the two terms, I would think of the dimensional warp as moving between two places (dimensions), so the where. With "time gate" I would think of one place, but the when of the situation.[/i]
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Wait, would Belthasar have TTI if the past was altered? I mean, would the timeline change around him? Or are we saying that the first Belthasar that was transported to the Lavos timeline future was Time Bastarded and that a new Belthasar is sent to a post-CT future?
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not anymore thoughts about if there's a tesseract per dimension or if it's the same tesseract to all dimensions?
is the dinopolis paradox enough to say there's a tesseract per dimensionnnnn???
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not anymore thoughts about if there's a tesseract per dimension or if it's the same tesseract to all dimensions?
is the dinopolis paradox enough to say there's a tesseract per dimensionnnnn???
The game pretty much states that ANY timeline that's destroyed gets sent to the Tesseract. I'm almost certain, in this respect, that they mean there's only one Tesseract for every timeline that exists. If there were more than one Tesseract, then that would mean that Tesseracts in themselves are nothing more than alternate timelines.
Wait, would Belthasar have TTI if the past was altered? I mean, would the timeline change around him? Or are we saying that the first Belthasar that was transported to the Lavos timeline future was Time Bastarded and that a new Belthasar is sent to a post-CT future?
The entire 2300 AD future and the events it took place in should have disappeared. This includes the bat-loco Belthasar from the Chrono Trigger game. When 2300 AD disappeared, that version should have disappeared completely. In his stead, a new Belthasar arrives in the new 2300 AD in the "saved" future.
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The entire 2300 AD future and the events it took place in should have disappeared. This includes the bat-loco Belthasar from the Chrono Trigger game. When 2300 AD disappeared, that version should have disappeared completely. In his stead, a new Belthasar arrives in the new 2300 AD in the "saved" future.
Not "new" per se, as it would have still been the Belthasar from the original ocean palace that arrived there, in the saved future.
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The game pretty much states that ANY timeline that's destroyed gets sent to the Tesseract. I'm almost certain, in this respect, that they mean there's only one Tesseract for every timeline that exists.
Geez... ¬¬" Didn't you understand what I posted? Absolutely, ANY timeline that's destroyed goes to the Tesseract. So, wasn't that exactly one of the things I stated in my post?
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You see, if there's a Tesseract per Dimension, every single Timeline that's eliminated from Its Dimension, even if carried away to another Dimension, ends up in Its Dimension's Tesseract and that's the end of the story.
Now, if there's only One Tesseract, a Multi-dimensional Tesseract that fits All existent Dimensions then when a Timeline is taken from Its Dimension to another One, Its -original Dimension "version"- is eliminated, for it ceases to exist in Its original Dimension, but at the same time It still exists in the New Dimension it was brought to. Even being mixed to another timeline and thus creating a third one, there was a point in Space-Time Continua in which It ceased to exist, but at the same time it didn't, if there was only One Tesseract that was linked to all Dimensions, that is.
Undastood now? XD
P.S.: In any case, read again the part about the "levels" of reality of my post, that should help ya understand anything that is still missunderstood x)
If there were more than one Tesseract, then that would mean that Tesseracts in themselves are nothing more than alternate timelines.
no no o.o
Tesseract, for what I could see from CC and from the Compendium articles, would run in time-error, perpendicularly to the timelines, like the EoT...
And, shewsh, if there'd be one Tesseract per Dimension there could be one EoT, BoT and as many time-error running "places" as one wouldd like to imagine >.>
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Sometimes, I think that Belthasar only ment that by destroying all time and space would only occur in their dimensional group. I'm pretty sure there are other dimensions are out there.
Just imagine this. Inside a huge dome there are billions of bubbles. Inside each bubble, there is its own dimension and a terrasect. In CC's bubble, there Another World grew a branch on it's dimension, but was still one dimension initially. If Lavos in it's terrasect destroyes "all of time and space", the bubble will burst, but there would still be heaps of bubbles left in the huge dome. the end...
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Sometimes, I think that Belthasar only ment that by destroying all time and space would only occur in their dimensional group. I'm pretty sure there are other dimensions are out there.
Just imagine this. Inside a huge dome there are billions of bubbles. Inside each bubble, there is its own dimension and a terrasect. In CC's bubble, there Another World grew a branch on it's dimension, but was still one dimension initially. If Lavos in it's terrasect destroyes "all of time and space", the bubble will burst, but there would still be heaps of bubbles left in the huge dome. the end...
If this is true, then Home world would be safe, right? Well, besides the fact that Lavos would erupt in 1999 A.D., they would be safe from having their existances just wiped away.
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Give up Zaperking, there's no way they'll understand what we're trying to say ¬¬"
Geez...
btw, nice way to exemplify, easier to understand than the hipothetically naming way i did XD
But ppl still dun understand, gosh ¬¬"
---> Kazuki! Home is a dimension inside a DIMENSION and the one which would burst would be the DIMENSION, so the dimension inside of it would burst too
the DIMENSION would be imploded, destroyed from the outside to the inside, till it becomes nothingness, just an infinite of possibilities that coulda been but weren't, inside this DIMENSION's tesseract
>>> if u still can't get it, try thinking of Home and Another as TIMELINES, running parallel at the same time in the same DIMENSION ><
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Maybe if you had better grammar we could figure out what you were talking about easier. Just a thought.
It doesn't seem like one Tessarect for each dimension would be the way that it is supposed to be. I doubt that the Entity would really be worried enough to transport a whole other dimension over to the CC one, if only one dimesion was going to be destroyed.
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Zaper and noodles are on the false idea that there are infinate dimensions, when there are only 3-4 proven ones.
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It's stated more than once that there are possibliy more. Even in Chronopolis, after Chronopolis says that it's been watching parrarel universes, Third Party member suggests that there are probably more universes with their own timelines.
Schala "Kid" Zeal even says "I'll look for ya mate, in any time, in any place, in anydimension"
Besides, if you're saying "this hasn't been proven" in game, then I'll just say that TTI and TB haven't been proven either due to game evidence, but instead you try to work around plot holes or shit >.>
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The Third Party member and Kid are NOT authorities on temporal mechanics.
TTI has PLENTY of evidence. I can hardly believe you still deny it. The TB is NEVER contradicted once.
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There's infinite dimensions, just for the sake of argument, I guess. But yea, I always figured the Tesseract was linked to ALL dimensions, and the Time Devourer's maturation would mean the end of everything. Period.
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Geez, I know I explained the idea I had awfully, mostly because the concepts I used are completely crossovering ones in the series, and seriously, it's something that is so logical that it can be better understood if thaught of than being explained... I was absurdly redundant just to the case someone couldn't get the reason why a single tesseract would cause a paradox by himself...
Dinopolis Timeline exists. Dinopolis Timeline doesn't exist. Both things together = Hum... Paradox by an error in the storyline, simply something the staff didn't even care about and us mere stoopid players are discussing about so vigorously? Or do the staff mean that there is one Tesseract per dimension? None of those options?
Right now I'll go with the one tesseract per dimension o.o
And it doesn't matter how many dimensions are known, in CC a Chronopolitan states that all of it is a matter of possibility. And if the game staff didn't mean that there are "other dimensions" than the ones in the CT-CC storyline, probably there wouldn't be info from RD inside Chronopolis ¬¬" Of course there should be plenty of other meanings to that, but one is possibly that.
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Schala "Kid" Zeal even says "I'll look for ya mate, in any time, in any place, in anydimension"
I thought it was established that nothing more was meant for this than Schala/Kid's dedication to finding Zeal...
To quote Sentenal...
The Third Party member and Kid are NOT authorities on temporal mechanics.
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The Third Party member and Kid are NOT authorities on temporal mechanics.
TTI has PLENTY of evidence. I can hardly believe you still deny it. The TB is NEVER contradicted once.
So, Does that make you and Gray the temporal mechanics? NO! I mean, it's nice you make all these theories, but game evidence is game evidence for crying out loud. IF IT IS STATED IN THE GAME, THEN IT IS TRUE. They experianced more to do with dimensional hopping then you did, looking through the eyes of Serge anyway.
Where does TTI have evidence? We are never told of anything to do with it. Saying the entity caused Marle to escape or talking about how there are more than one time line to prove this was how Marle dissapeared is pure speculation. It's pure fanfiction. This is why I hate Chrono Trigger fanfiction >.> Anything to do with pure speculation. Atleast if your going to try and tell me something has evidence, prove it with a statement from in the game, and maybe then ill rest my case.
TB is not proven because no character has ever dissapeared. Even the Gaspar or Belthasar never stated this. No one in the game stated Time Bastard.
We DO NOT KNOW how time works in the Chrono Universe. Going back in time may not cause problems that we think today from reading books and watching movies. The main point in CT is that you can't go back like 5 minutes when you go back to a time period. If the plot has happened, then it's happened. The Time Travellers leave and are gone from the time line till they get back to theres. And we can't go back to like 5 seconds before they dissapeared to see them, hence it doesn't exist. In a conseptual theory, maybe, otherwise it's not clear and justified.
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IF IT IS STATED IN THE GAME, THEN IT IS TRUE.
OMG CAPS! THEY R STILL FUN!!
Let's see...Damn herograw is down, I can't get the script. Time to go off of memory!
So you then believe that the Entity is presonsible for the gates, and all of them? Cool, nice to have another person in my corner!
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First, I'd like to applaud the thread's name change which makes it clear what it is...although it now lacks my specific flair :P
Where does TTI have evidence? We are never told of anything to do with it...
At least if your going to try and tell me something has evidence, prove it with a statement from in the game, and maybe then ill rest my case.
TB is not proven because no character has ever dissapeared. Even the Gaspar or Belthasar never stated this. No one in the game stated Time Bastard.
Gravity is never specifically stated by any character in game, do you then not really believe that gravity is a part of the Chrono world? The player isn't given everything on a plate. Some things have to be figured out yourself. TTI gets a lot of it's evidence, I believe, from the sealed chests...but I'm not a big expert on the dynamics myself...
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The major point that disproves TTI is Chronopolis, it's people and FATE. FATE is having like mental breakdowns trying to ensure that nothing can cause it not to be built in the future. Wonder know why? Because the people in Zenan are destined to give birth to the people that will one day be in the Time Crash, and people who will be assigned to build FATE.
If FATE was in a pocket dimension, or in 2400AD but in some temportal distortion in 7600BC, then FATE might truely be immune, but it's not.
Can you retell me the thing about the sealed chests? I don't see how it proves TTI. It's an item... How can that be counted as a time traveller. Besides the point that if you take it out at 600AD, it wont be there in 1000AD, and if you get it at 1000AD, it'll be there in 600AD obviousally, it all depends when you got it.
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Geez, I know I explained the idea I had awfully, mostly because the concepts I used are completely crossovering ones in the series, and seriously, it's something that is so logical that it can be better understood if thaught of than being explained... I was absurdly redundant just to the case someone couldn't get the reason why a single tesseract would cause a paradox by himself...
Dinopolis Timeline exists. Dinopolis Timeline doesn't exist. Both things together = Hum... Paradox by an error in the storyline, simply something the staff didn't even care about and us mere stoopid players are discussing about so vigorously? Or do the staff mean that there is one Tesseract per dimension? None of those options?
Right now I'll go with the one tesseract per dimension o.o
And it doesn't matter how many dimensions are known, in CC a Chronopolitan states that all of it is a matter of possibility. And if the game staff didn't mean that there are "other dimensions" than the ones in the CT-CC storyline, probably there wouldn't be info from RD inside Chronopolis ¬¬" Of course there should be plenty of other meanings to that, but one is possibly that.
I still have no idea what you're talking about. Dinopolis exists, then doesn't exist? WTF?
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Fate isn't all powerful, it clearly states in the game that there are more than likely more than 2 dimensions, if your gonna speculate, then one could say that the RD story is in another dimension too. The tesseract really only makes sense to say it exist everywhere, why else would it be so feared if it only existed in one or two dimensions. Most of the game is based on speculation, kinda like the Bible, you can take it for what it says, or you can over analyze everything because you were looking for the real meaning behind it, just take the game for what it is and enjoy it instead of trying to explain something that no one except for SE (and i doubt even they can) can explain.
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Geez, I know I explained the idea I had awfully, mostly because the concepts I used are completely crossovering ones in the series, and seriously, it's something that is so logical that it can be better understood if thaught of than being explained... I was absurdly redundant just to the case someone couldn't get the reason why a single tesseract would cause a paradox by himself...
Dinopolis Timeline exists. Dinopolis Timeline doesn't exist. Both things together = Hum... Paradox by an error in the storyline, simply something the staff didn't even care about and us mere stoopid players are discussing about so vigorously? Or do the staff mean that there is one Tesseract per dimension? None of those options?
Right now I'll go with the one tesseract per dimension o.o
And it doesn't matter how many dimensions are known, in CC a Chronopolitan states that all of it is a matter of possibility. And if the game staff didn't mean that there are "other dimensions" than the ones in the CT-CC storyline, probably there wouldn't be info from RD inside Chronopolis ¬¬" Of course there should be plenty of other meanings to that, but one is possibly that.
I still have no idea what you're talking about. Dinopolis exists, then doesn't exist? WTF?
omah
¬¬"
Ok, let's go:
When Dinopolis timeline is sucked from its dimension and thrown at Chronos's dimension it ceases to exist inside its dimension, thus ending up in the Tesseract, BUT this time line still existed at a point in the flow of time inside Chronos's dimension, before it merged with the Chronos's Keystone T-1 timeline and became Keystone T-2. If there is only ONE Tesseract, at that special point in the flow of time, Dinopolis timeline was at the same time inside the Tesseract and outside of it too.
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Ok, you're slightly confused. Dinopolis TIMELINE wasn't pulled into the Keystone timeline. Just Dinopolis CITY. The reason the timeline shifted from T-1 to T-2 is because of the Time Crash.
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Ok, you're slightly confused. Dinopolis TIMELINE wasn't pulled into the Keystone timeline. Just Dinopolis CITY. The reason the timeline shifted from T-1 to T-2 is because of the Time Crash.
lol
I'm sorry, but the one who's utterly confused is you.
You see, when you move a determined piece of space-time it's the time and space which are moved, not only space. So when Dinopolis was pulled into Keystone T-1, it was the space-time that formed its timeline which was pulled, not only its spacial content.
If only space was moved through time/dimension travels the past of the travelling subject would become nonexistent, and there would prolly be many other paradoxal effects, or put it simply, if the game stated that only space could travel through time/dimensions, it would be stupidity. Imho, that is. And I really believe that if there's one adjective that couldn't define the staff team from both Chronos is stupidity. Slight mistakies, yes. ABSOLUTELY inteligent plot, yes. Hopefully, they know what they're doin'.
AuraTwilight, use ur brainnnnnnn man, c'mon, dun be lazy ><
Case closed?
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If what you're saying is true, then time and space would be REALLY screwed up after Terra Tower came to Another. From what it looksl like, you're saying that the two timelines are co-existing at same...er time. And space.
If that's true, then wouldn't everything that's not the reptite timeline get cancelled out? I just can't see how two timelines can co-exist at the same space.
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Ok, you're slightly confused. Dinopolis TIMELINE wasn't pulled into the Keystone timeline. Just Dinopolis CITY. The reason the timeline shifted from T-1 to T-2 is because of the Time Crash.
You see, when you move a determined piece of space-time it's the time and space which are moved, not only space. So when Dinopolis was pulled into Keystone T-1, it was the space-time that formed its timeline which was pulled, not only its spacial content.
If only space was moved through time/dimension travels the past of the travelling subject would become nonexistent, and there would prolly be many other paradoxal effects, or put it simply, if the game stated that only space could travel through time/dimensions, it would be stupidity. Imho, that is. And I really believe that if there's one adjective that couldn't define the staff team from both Chronos is stupidity. Slight mistakies, yes. ABSOLUTELY inteligent plot, yes. Hopefully, they know what they're doin'.
If you walk along the sidewalk, you move through space-time, not drag space-time along with you. Chrono Cross supposes that the universe has more than four dimensions, which contain other space-time continua. Dinopolis passed through a space-time distortion, like a wormhole. The matter and energy which make up Dinopolis were moved from their space-time location in the Reptite dimension to the space-time location of the Sea of Eden in the Chrono dimension. The world-line of Dinopolis, stretches unbroken back through the worm-hole to its original location.
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Game states that the planet pulled in Dinopolis to counter the effects that Chronopolis would cause to the future, because Dinopolis is another dimensions elite chosen city.
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If what you're saying is true, then time and space would be REALLY screwed up after Terra Tower came to Another. From what it looksl like, you're saying that the two timelines are co-existing at same...er time. And space.
If that's true, then wouldn't everything that's not the reptite timeline get cancelled out? I just can't see how two timelines can co-exist at the same space.
No no
Dinopolis timeline fuses with keystone t-1 to create t-2. t-1 and dinopolis timeline cease to exist as dinopolis timeline and t-1. they don't exist anymore as separate timelines. they exist as t-2.
The paradox is when Dinopolis is being pulled to encounter t-1, if there's only one tesseract dinopolis would be pulled to 2 places at the same time
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If you walk along the sidewalk, you move through space-time, not drag space-time along with you.
Of course you do. You carry YOUR "perspective" of space-time with you, always, if not you'd be a "spacial only" object inside a space-time reality. Space-time is ONE single thing, you can't screw space without screwing time. Read sumthin' about what gravity is, for its one of the most simple examples of how space and time are utterly connected. I'd recommend Stephen Hawking's The Universe in a Nutshell.
When Dinopolis spacial content and time content (let's call dinopolis timeline this way then) were pulled, it was Dinopolis's perspective of space-time that was pulled (or all of the "counciousness inside of it" perspective) with it.
Everything is relative, a small part of the ALL can't mess the ALL itself, only its perspective of it.
Chrono Cross supposes that the universe has more than four dimensions, which contain other space-time continua. Dinopolis passed through a space-time distortion, like a wormhole. The matter and energy which make up Dinopolis were moved from their space-time location in the Reptite dimension to the space-time location of the Sea of Eden in the Chrono dimension. The world-line of Dinopolis, stretches unbroken back through the worm-hole to its original location.
Just like that, imho. Still, Dinopolis's timeline did go through that wormhole, thus being eliminated from its original dimension.
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Holy Hell, did you even play the game? The Dinopolis incident is as simple as a city passing through a wormhole. That. Is. It. You're pulling stuff out of your ass and trying to pass it off as a theory. With all due respect, make a theory to fit the facts. Don't make the facts fit the theory.
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Holy Hell, did you even play the game? The Dinopolis incident is as simple as a city passing through a wormhole. That. Is. It.
Absolutely. The fact is that Dinopolis passed through a wormhole. But Dinopolis doesn't occupy a place only in space, it occupies a place in time as well, just like everyhing else. Space and time, as I already said, cannot be seprated. They are one thing, called space-time.
BTW, played CC at least 6 times. Love its plot. Even more than CT. My favourite RPG x)
You're pulling stuff out of your ass and trying to pass it off as a theory. With all due respect, make a theory to fit the facts. Don't make the facts fit the theory.
Geez AuraTwilight, as I aleady said, stop and think just for a little bit about what you read before replying. As I already said (can't get tired of repeating it), if only Dinopolis's spacial matter moved through the wormhole then it would be a "spacial only" subject inside a space-time reality. And its not, for every CC player that finished the game at least once have aleady experienced Dinopolis as a space-time object. At least I did. Imho, that is.
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Indeed. It is unknown what time period Dinopolis was taken from, but we do know that it's the elite city in the repitite dimension, especially chosen to counter Chronopolis.
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Absolutely. The fact is that Dinopolis passed through a wormhole. But Dinopolis doesn't occupy a place only in space, it occupies a place in time as well, just like everyhing else. Space and time, as I already said, cannot be seprated. They are one thing, called space-time.
No offense, but you have a flawed understanding of relativity. Matter and energy occupy space-time. Just by walking along the sidewalk, your body moves through space and time. Dinopolis is not a rapidly rotating black-hole; it does not drag space-time along with it. When Dinopolis passed through the wormhole, it moves through space and time.
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Absolutely. The fact is that Dinopolis passed through a wormhole. But Dinopolis doesn't occupy a place only in space, it occupies a place in time as well, just like everyhing else. Space and time, as I already said, cannot be seprated. They are one thing, called space-time.
No offense, but you have a flawed understanding of relativity. Matter and energy occupy space-time. Just by walking along the sidewalk, your body moves through space and time. Dinopolis is not a rapidly rotating black-hole; it does not drag space-time along with it. When Dinopolis passed through the wormhole, it moves through space and time.
Of course it carries! It carries "its own perspective" of space-time. If it was a black-hole it'd be "sucking" its sorrounding space-time, and not carrying its own perspective of space-time with it to Chronos's dimension. My understanding of relativity isn't flawed, its just deeper than yours, for what I see XD - The viewer of an event is a living part of it -
You can't state things with a universal point of view, for the universe (in the way it's experienced in the Chrono series) is built up of many individual conciousness, and thus everyone of this individual consiousness has its own perspective of space-time, being, fully, a part of it.
When I state that if there was only one Tesseract, Dinopolis would be at two points in space-time, I mean that if an individual counciousness experienced (from the outside, a viewer, part of the experience) the moment when Dinopolis is dragged from its dimension to Chronos's it'd experience a "split" and would see the same piece of space-time being cut off its timeline (or greater piece of space-time if you will) and being "transformed", "split" in 2, one going to the Tesseract and the other going to Chronos's dimension.
As Doreen states in CT "Never assume that what you see is real", if you bother to think about a meaning for it you can take this conclusion: Never assume that what you see is REALITY itself, for its just your perspective of it. At least that's the most fitting meaning I could find XD
GrayLensman, from your posts I think you're a guy who's pretty interested in modern physics XD BUT, imho, your concepts are a liiiiitle bit rusty, too much "Einsteinish" XDD I'm not criticizing ya, far from me... But try reading (if you didn't already read but disagreed or didn't understand) some of Fritjof Capra works (mostly The Tao of Physics), it'd give ya a closer idea of my vision of relativity in general, what would pretty much fit to my vision of relativity in the Chrono series XD
P.S.: before i forget! matter and energy are the same thing manifesting in different ways. you could, very rawly, say that matter is condensed energy. if you mind to read the tao of physics pay close attention to the parts about the behavior of subatomic particles.
P.S.2: and, guh >< since our arguments are becoming more and more "out of game" based, let's just keep ourselves strictly to game-facts or game-fact leaded ideas! and my game-fact leaded idea is still the same XD if you'd like to discuss physics in general it'd be a pleasure, just lets do it in a General Discussion topic or sumthin' XD
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I'm sorry, but you are describing metaphysical beliefs and not actual, falsifiable scientific theories. You may persue a metaphysical interpretation of the Chrono Series; but, with regards to reality, you cannot disregard the scientific theories of modern physics, supported by an overwhelming body of evidence, that easily.
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You can, actually.
This is a game.
We're in reality.
We're not in a game.
Not that I agree with anything he's said, but the game itself has many subjective points that have completely disagreed with modern science.
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Oh yes, Exodus gave the point x) The games themselves are HELLLL metaphysics XD (And which good RPG isn't? I mean, metaphysical content and unexplained parameters are must have in masterpieces, they have to burnnnn the players brain XD), and that's why my game-fact based ideas remains unchanged, with or without all this modern vs. subatomic physics obsolete discussion XD
And GrayLensman, as I said try updating your info inside the physics topic, the concepts you're still holding are, scientifically, being torn apart one by one with every new discover of a new subatomic particle and its behavior. Even the most "Einsteinish" scientists are starting to see how all this metaphysical "talk" is, actually, totally physical. Seriously, try reading The Tao of Physics, just for fun, it'll give ya some new info with a very simple way of explanation (I mean, I got it, lol) or just search for articles on the net or any other source of info about the refreshing(ok I pulled myself in that one, ha ha ha) subatomic physics, and then you'll see that there isn't anything of metaphysical in my statements :) Update yourself mr. Guru! XD
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Saying that to Gray will like take away his knowledge libido Oo.
I wana be like you people when im older.... Well... just in brains... >.>
I wana be a quantut physics person when im older XD I want to prove that some kind of power exists out there. Probably research ESP. And also try and make cars fly :) using the power of cold fusion :D
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Somehow, I totally doubt Chrono Cross' metaphysics were based of a book written by a decrepid, blind old asian man who was totally off his rocker and died trying to prove some of his theories. But whatever. Think whatever you want.
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It doesn't matter the bases which CC metaphysical plots had, what matters are the plots themselves. lol
Edit: Oh! Oh! IMHO, that is.
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Somehow, I totally doubt Chrono Cross' metaphysics were based of a book written by a decrepid, blind old asian man who was totally off his rocker and died trying to prove some of his theories. But whatever. Think whatever you want.
Ditto. Unless Square had snapped as well :shock: .
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I think the point is that we have to relate the metaphysics in the game to it. I doubt CC perposely got like physics professors to their place to discuss time travel and shit. I bet they never even thought over the fact about TTI and TB and all our theories. That basically is why they are theories :P
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This thread seems to be another case of Sentenal defending what's already established to discussors who haven't played Chrono Cross or read the articles before making refutation. Is there anything of value in here? 17 pages is too much for me at the moment.