Chrono Compendium
Enhasa Halls - Chrono Series Analysis => Lavos, the Planet, and other Entities => Topic started by: Kuroikaze on August 11, 2005, 12:50:50 am
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I notice that in the article, that it is assumed that Lavos is what causes the destruction viewed in the Dead Sea, and the Dead Sea is a representation of the area surrounding the Tower of Geddon (presumably in the city/lab of Chronopolis).
I may be wrong, but I don't recall Miguel ever stating or alluding that Lavos caused it. In fact, if the Dead Sea represents the 9,021 years after Lavos rains destruction on the world, wouldn't the city of chronopolis be long gone? At least horribly overgrown and not frozen in time like it was.
I submit that it's possible that the destruction we see there is the point in time when the Time Devourer awakens, and begins its own lavos-esque destruction, and uses its ability to manipulate time and space to do the whole "frozen in time" thing.
It makes sense, since it would take several thousand years for Schalla and Lavos to finish merging completely, and even longer for it to complete its power draining of the planet and then the subsequent destruction and spawning of its new hybrid species.
We know that the merging is a long process because the Time Devourer isn't yet merged in 2300 AD when Balthasar discovers its existence, and it had been around since either 12,000 BC or 1010 AD. (I'm not clear if Schalla/Devourer actually time-traveled to 1010 and cause the magnetic storm, or if it was just reaching into that tiem period from the DBT.)
In either case, Schallavos is either 10,010 years old at youngest, and 23,020 years at most at the time of the destruction of Chronopolis in Home World. More then enough time to absorb energy from the planet and merge completly. (remember, this portion of lavos wasn't being used as a giant battery by a civilization that probably undid 1000 years of draining every year of using it, nor was it summoned by Magus or had to expend energy to defeat Chrono or Magus respectivly.)
Anyone have any problems with this? anything not fit?
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Lithosphere Investigation Report #27 is the primary reason it is attributed to Lavos. Additionally, Belthasar talked about the Time Devourer maturing with a certain finality, as if all time would cease to exist once he matured. Since the DBT is where he's going to mature on a perpindicular timeline to the real world, it stands that for all times during Chrono Cross, he hasn't matured.
I know there is some other quote somewhere about Lavos, but I'm just answering with high level answers at the moment. The reasoning is there, but it requires some digging. The perpindicular thing stems Beyond Time.
Anyway, if Time Error isn't true for the Chrono series, your theory may be valid. I really wish I could halt some gears and finally start a massive analysis overhaul and completion right now, but features and the 10th birthday have been keeping me. Nonetheless, this will be settled; welcome to the Compendium.
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By the way, I'll move this to Time & Space since it is good analysis.
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Thanks for the welcome. I've been reading alot fo stuff about this site, researching for a game I plan to make I've decided to call Chrono Crash.
I was hoping for it to be kind of a bridge game, that people could play to more fully understand the full effects of the events in CT and CC, and help clear up the mystery of Chronopolis and the Dead Sea/Sea of Eden.
I'll only use facts to piece the game together, and since this place bases all its arguments on in-game information and accepted facts about temporal physics and theory, its a goldmine for me.
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Yeah, I apologize that it's in a bit of disarray right now. My gears have been focused on the basic encyclopedia and journalistic features for so long that analysis has kind of taken a backseat.
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Yeah, I apologize that it's in a bit of disarray right now. My gears have been focused on the basic encyclopedia and journalistic features for so long that analysis has kind of taken a backseat.
There is an old Chronopoleyish proverb: "Even the Entity flits but one tail."
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I may be wrong, but I don't recall Miguel ever stating or alluding that Lavos caused it. In fact, if the Dead Sea represents the 9,021 years after Lavos rains destruction on the world, wouldn't the city of chronopolis be long gone? At least horribly overgrown and not frozen in time like it was.
Thing is, the Dead Sea represents the destroyed future Crono diverted, and Serge's actions negated Crono's.
I submit that it's possible that the destruction we see there is the point in time when the Time Devourer awakens, and begins its own lavos-esque destruction, and uses its ability to manipulate time and space to do the whole "frozen in time" thing.
The Time Devourer can't be mature in any time or space whatsoever, because once it does, it will devour and destroy all past, present and future so that there never WAS a universe.
It makes sense, since it would take several thousand years for Schalla and Lavos to finish merging completely, and even longer for it to complete its power draining of the planet and then the subsequent destruction and spawning of its new hybrid species.
I got the impression that the destruction of the universe would be almost instantanious. and the Time Devourer has no interest in breeding. Once it's done, there won't be any food for it's children. Not to mention that will give Schala some heavyduty identity crisis.
We know that the merging is a long process because the Time Devourer isn't yet merged in 2300 AD when Balthasar discovers its existence, and it had been around since either 12,000 BC or 1010 AD. (I'm not clear if Schalla/Devourer actually time-traveled to 1010 and cause the magnetic storm, or if it was just reaching into that tiem period from the DBT.)
Reaching out. FYI, the Darkness Beyond Time is perpendiculuar, so it runs on a seperate timestream.
In either case, Schallavos is either 10,010 years old at youngest, and 23,020 years at most at the time of the destruction of Chronopolis in Home World. More then enough time to absorb energy from the planet and merge completly. (remember, this portion of lavos wasn't being used as a giant battery by a civilization that probably undid 1000 years of draining every year of using it, nor was it summoned by Magus or had to expend energy to defeat Chrono or Magus respectivly.)
Schallavos? You mean the Time Devourer, right? Whatever. Anyway, time runs differently in the DBT, so from Schala's point of view, she might have been there for minutes only.
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LOL, I would HOPE no one tried to summon the Time Devourer! Shit!
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I'll summon the TD!
~Summons him~
~TD eats all s\t, we're all screwed, and everything ceases to exist~
~Lavos is happy ^_^~
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Schallavos? You mean the Time Devourer, right? Whatever. Anyway, time runs differently in the DBT, so from Schala's point of view, she might have been there for minutes only.
Kid:
C'mon Serge, me mate!
You don't wanna keep the
girl waiting any longer...
She's been waitin' for you,
and only you!
And for over ten thousand
years, I might add!
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Well, I guess that's a no-go then.
But thinking about how Lavos multiplies, I notice it's asexual. This is pretty easy to figure out, because there's only one on the planet, and there's no way in hell it has a gestation period of several million years.
So the next logical idea is that it produced by asexual division, Mitosis or Meiosis. Starfish reproduce in a similar fashion. If you cut a starfish into five pieces, it will grow into 5 new starfish. This might have something to do with the first thing Lavos does when it unburrows from the planet (and its little pocket dimension). It attempts to preform a high-speed mitosis or meiosis and launches spires off itself to spread them around the world. The widescale destruction this causes is most likely a side-effect, but negligible, because the world by this stage of Lavos' cycle is more than fit enough to support myriad lifeforms. Killing a few billion people just means that there will be more food for its infant spawn to slowly grow, mature, and eventually launch themselves into space in search of their own planets.
If this is true, then perhaps the Frozen Flame is a piece of Lavos that either had its growth halted or severly stunted by its father piece. Why would Lavos do this? A few reasons.
1) A backup plan. If Lavos reproduces via meiosis or mitosis, then it retains memory genetically. This clone would for all intents and purposes BE lavos. Laucnhing a premature chunk of itself would serve the dual purpose of it being its link to the surface and a backup piece of itself.
2) Lavos cant have another version of itself maturing at the same time as it's trying to guide the planet to be able to sustain multiple powerful life forms. It needs to be able to drain a specific ammount of energy from the planet before it can reproduce, as Mitosis and Meiosis are a severe drain of energy.
so, when Lavos was removed from history by Chrono and Co, the Frozen Flame put into plan its backup, by corrupting FATE and tossing it back in time, and allowing it to create a stable self-contained environment, it had a mini-planet to begin draining from to start its maturation. Serge's predicament was most likely planned from the begining. His being there and almost dying in 1010 created a perfect opportunity to give the Frozen Flame infinite time to mature. When Wazuki/FATE was killed by Kid, this created a vacancy of FATE in Home World, meaning that El Nido was no longer guided toward the time when Chronopolis existed. This created the Dead Sea, which might be seen as a place held in an infinite time loop.
With an infinite 10,000 year loop, the Frozen Flame could mature and grow into a full Lavos being, then burrow and halt the loop by hiding in a pocket dimension, then emerge from the pocket dimension in 11,010 AD, bringing about the destruction seen in the Dead Sea.
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MITOSIS! OMG, that's freaking GENIUS! I've been wondering why we can't find Lavos in 2300 AD, despite the fact that he reigns on Death Peak. The rest of the stuff is kinda messed up though.
Kid:
C'mon Serge, me mate!
You don't wanna keep the
girl waiting any longer...
She's been waitin' for you,
and only you!
And for over ten thousand
years, I might add!
Like Kid is any valid source of information on the Tesseract. Sure, the time she's been waiting may equate to 10,000 years in OUR world, but it's pretty obvious the Tesseract works on a different time frame (how it works is debateable) and I just don't think that Schala, no matter how noble, can keep sane for 10,000 years of existence. Come on.
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Well, there is the idea that Death Peak is composed of Lavos's shell, or he's at least in it. It is rather spiky, and a mountain never existed there before at the precise eruption point.
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Like Kid is any valid source of information on the Tesseract. Sure, the time she's been waiting may equate to 10,000 years in OUR world, but it's pretty obvious the Tesseract works on a different time frame (how it works is debateable) and I just don't think that Schala, no matter how noble, can keep sane for 10,000 years of existence. Come on.
I think time in the Tesseract is relative, like in Ender's Game series by Orson Scott Card. Traveling at light speed or faster makes time pass much slower than those outside the vessal, or in this case, the tesseract. I'm not sure what the ratio would be.
But lets assume that for each year spent in the Tesseract, the relative difference outside would be 1000 years. In that case, Schala might have spent at the most, 10 years there. This is most likey VERY wrong, though.
The idea behind the Tesseract is that it's empty 4 dimensional space. The term Tesseract describes the 4 dimensional equivalent of a cube. you can find pictures of it on google, and it's pretty brilliant.
If you view the Tesseract as a vessal that is capable of moving in the 4th dimension, you can assume that all time is within reach from within it, also because it has a 4th dimension itself, it is essentially limitless in size. Moving within the tesseract in our basic 3 dimensions would get you nowhere, the only way to enter and leave is via gates, which are 5th dimensional tunnels. 5th dimension being theorized to be a dimension of movement in which one can travel instantly to any location, like a kind of subspace. Imagine a rat in a maze, it moves in two dimensions, but if ti were capable of the third, it would simply rise out of the maze to reach the end. A nigh instataneous mode of transportation that avoids the normal obstavles of matter.
so, while the 3rd dimension allows one to move uninhibited by the obstacles of mass, the 5th dimension of movement would theoretically allow one to move freely of the other element that impedes all movement, energy.
Remember, this is just a theory.
Edit - Also, for mitosis to occur, the orginal doesn't have to be destroyed, it's simply reduced in size until it can re-form. Like I said, starfish. Cut off a starfish's leg, wait several weeks, and you'll now have two complete starfish, both genetically identical. With the huge amount of energy that lavos has been storing, I think it's possible that it uses it to reform its lost pieces after reproducing.
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IMO, the DBT is simply the collect of discarded timelines, no longer flowing. So time stands still there, at least for the timelines themselves. Sentient beings would obviously not be frozen.
And thats an interesting idea about Lavos destroying the world by launching spires of itself to seed the planet... I just have one question for that: If that was indeed him seeding the planet, then how come the only place where you find Lavos Spawns at is on Death Peak?
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If that was indeed him seeding the planet, then how come the only place where you find Lavos Spawns at is on Death Peak?
Migration, probably. They would want to go to the area where their spawner was last, as there would be easy access to the PD so they could start siphoning off the remaining vestiges of energy in the planet before launching themselves into space.
Also, as stated above, Death Mountain may be Lavos' corpse after splitting off into several pieces.
And as for the "why destroy the planet?" thing, I imagien young lavos are very vulnerable, and probably only have the shell of their creator's spire as their initial protection. By devastating the dominant lifeform of the planet, it increases each spawn's chance for survival.
This kind of "spreading seeds" thing is seen alot in nature, especially in insects and reptiles, and other species that dont reer their young. I highly doubt Lavos reers its young, or even stays alive much longer after reproduction.
Edit - another explanation may be that the Lavos Spawn at Death Mountain are the last remaining ones, and that being at the point of exit means the area there isn't as energy ripe as the rest of the world was in 1999, thus they've not yet met their energy requirements for interplanetary launch. The others had probably left decades before, having a wealth of area and energy at their disposal.
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Kid:
C'mon Serge, me mate!
You don't wanna keep the
girl waiting any longer...
She's been waitin' for you,
and only you!
And for over ten thousand
years, I might add!
Like Kid is any valid source of information on the Tesseract. Sure, the time she's been waiting may equate to 10,000 years in OUR world, but it's pretty obvious the Tesseract works on a different time frame (how it works is debateable) and I just don't think that Schala, no matter how noble, can keep sane for 10,000 years of existence. Come on.
Led by the pitiful crying
the young Serge made as
the panther demon's poison
took hold of him...
Princess Schala traveled ten
thousand years in time to try
and make contact with this
dimension!
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*a whole bunch of stuff*
So, you're trying to say that the Time Devourer DID travel from 12,000 BC to 100X(When serge was bitten by the panther).
In which case, the incarnation of the TD we see in the Tesseract is still young, and has barely begun the process of merging with Schalla.
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I'm saying that perhaps Schala in the DBT did witness ten thousands years pass?
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I always thought so. It makes Schala agony oh so longer, meaning that once she feels freedom, it would make sense she understands all that deep stuff she did.
And the TD isn't young, it's about (Or more) then halfway through maturing.
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Didn't she already understand deep stuff?
Schala: Mother! This is a power that no human may control! etc, etc, womanly princess angst, etc, OMG the DBT.
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Didn't she already understand deep stuff?
Schala: Mother! This is a power that no human may control! etc, etc, womanly princess angst, etc, OMG the DBT.
This isn't deep. A speech about living beings being spermatozoas and the planet being an ovula is deep...
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Yea. We=insignificant.
World=Significant. Sounds DEEP to me. >_>
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A speech about living beings being spermatozoas and the planet being an ovula is deep...
It was an example, you know. But hey, she did figure out the meaning of life in Chrono's world. Just because you think Schala actually meant everyone are spermatoza dosen't mean she did. Plus, even if she did mean it, it shows life is the same, for us little human and for that big ol' universe.
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I know, I was actually serious about the deepness of that quote.
This one however
This is a power that no human may control!
is totally cliche'd and seen in every rpg...
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True :/ But still. Since when did she say anything about the meaning of life? I don't remember that.
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I'm saying that perhaps Schala in the DBT did witness ten thousands years pass?
The Darkness Beyond Time may be a place where time can pass without passing. Like, existing in an Nth dimension state which we can describe but not quite understand. What I'm getting at is that I think Schala would go mad if she was trapped for ten thousand years of real time, especially if she has no other company or distraction save Lavos. However, it may be possible for her to witness all of that ten thousand years worth of history, and glean some sort of deeper understanding as a result, while for her personally, only a day's worth of time seemed to pass. This is how I tend to view Schala at the end of Cross.
OdF
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True :/ But still. Since when did she say anything about the meaning of life? I don't remember that.
The '"eggs"' that we call planets...
And the innumerable '"spermatozoa"'
which gather around these
that we call life-forms...
When one of those countless seeds
inseminates a planet,
a new universe is born.
But until that occurs,
hundreds of millions of years will pass,
and innumerable life-forms will be born,
then die...
That is the be-all and end-all.
Everything exists for that one moment.
All so that the universe can evolve
into the next dimension...
Does that make us all just pawns?
Are each of our short lives
nothing but a cheap sacrifice
just so the one chosen life-form
can be born?
No. That is not the case!
Each and every one of us
has a chance of becoming
that one chosen life-form
which inseminates a planet.
Yes, it could be '"you"'...
Genes and environment...
Each of us tries to do his best
under the limited conditions
we are each dealt.
Each life-form that attempts to
eke out a decent life for itself
forms a link in the golden chain
that leads to the creation of
a new universe.
If one link is missing,
there will be no future.
There is no such thing as
a useless life-form...
No such thing as
a pawn!
If to cut to the chase, this means the meaning of life is striving to become the chosen entity, and along the way preparing the world for it's arrival.
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I'm saying that perhaps Schala in the DBT did witness ten thousands years pass?
The Darkness Beyond Time may be a place where time can pass without passing. Like, existing in an Nth dimension state which we can describe but not quite understand. What I'm getting at is that I think Schala would go mad if she was trapped for ten thousand years of real time, especially if she has no other company or distraction save Lavos. However, it may be possible for her to witness all of that ten thousand years worth of history, and glean some sort of deeper understanding as a result, while for her personally, only a day's worth of time seemed to pass. This is how I tend to view Schala at the end of Cross.
OdF
It makes sense. This explanation can also account for what happens to the Radical Dreamers in the 'Corridors of Time' (which I think is a prototype to what the scenarists eventually called DBT in CC).
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....woah. Go Schala. >_>;; See, this is the kind of crap I miss out on for not having a Playstation.
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Hey, I never said CC's isn't weird. It is. But once you understand the meaning of her words, you understand how touching it is!
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Indeed. It also proves how much of a "dick" Lavos really is.
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First off.
Awesoem stuff guys, this is some nice info. And I personally think that schalla was in the Tesseract/DBT for thousands of years, and was fairly aware of it.
This makes sense, especially given how she is able to use the Chrono Cross to successfully and (hopefully) correctly to create an ideal timeline.
Also, Aura, you should buy Chrono Cross used for liek 10 dollars and get a program called ePSXe, it will let you play Playstation games on your computer. dont even need a horribly fast compy for it either.
It's a little confusing to learn how to use it at first, but the creator has a huge forum with lots of helpful people.
Best of all, ePSXe is 100% free and legal. As long as you BUY YOUR GAMES.
In fact, great thing about ePSXe is that you can make games look BETTER then PS1 by upping the resolution and making the game textures smoother or applying shader effects and full screen filters. You can also save the game at any time by pressing F1 and load at any time with F2.
You guys here should build an archive of Chrono Trigger/Chrono Cross saves/savestates of certain scenes so you can reference them easier.
I own Chrono Trigger and Chrono Cross on PS1, I'd be willing to help. give me an excuse to play them both again. :D
Edit:
Aura - "If it isn't my old nemesis, A TRUCK!" *FAPPO!*
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Indeed. It also proves how much of a "dick" Lavos really is.
Awesome :lol:
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Uh....yea >_> I don't like Playstation. Tis why I' don't have it. I'd play like, what, one game for the PSX?
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B...b...b-but...FFTactics is so...so...s-so AWESOME!!!
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Uh....yea >_> I don't like Playstation. Tis why I' don't have it. I'd play like, what, one game for the PSX?
You dont like Final Fantasy at all?
Or Einhander? Or FFTactics? or Soul Reaver? Or the FF1/2 remake that isn't a complete bastardization?
Or the Remake of Chrono Trigger?
ePSXe is a free program. You dont have to buy a PS1, just download ePSXe and buy the one or two games you'd play, like Chrono Cross. It's easy to find Chrono Cross for very cheap.
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When I was little I devoted myself as a purist Nintendo fan. I've stuck to that to this day. Don't even know what an Xbox looks like XD yea, I'm that hardcore. Represent.
....how come all the topics I post in eventually get directed to my personal life? XD
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Sounds more like hardheaded 8)
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I'm not much of a gamer anyway. Haven't touched a gaming system in almost a year.
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Lavos did destroy the future but didn't finish it and it was able to rebuild itself through the people who survived on the seeds that were found at the bottom of the Arris dome. Also the Investigation report I believe came from the Arris dome not the Cronopolis Computer that everyone seems to claim. Which means lavos disappears to begin to nest to clone itself into the time devourer. The future is actually El nido not zenan.
The Future axis of the timeline was saved because of a change in the past. Miguel
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As I explain in an earlier post, Schala may not have indeed waited in the DBT for 10,000 years, but acctually travelled an approximated 10,000 years worth of our time to get to 1007AD. Lucca states that Schala fell into a time gate, and travelled 10,000 years to save Serge cuz she heard his crys in time.... in time meaning that she was in the time gate. Because this time gate was perpendicular to the timeline, Schala could view all of time without acctually aging. As she fell, and arrived at 1007AD, 10,000years would have passed our time and that was when the whole story began. Sometime in the time gate, Schala encountered Lavos. Starts merging. Saves Serge. Lands in DBT together, struggle, Kid is released and Schala sets up that shield around her to slow the merging process (well atleast I thought).
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Lavos did destroy the future but didn't finish it and it was able to rebuild itself through the people who survived on the seeds that were found at the bottom of the Arris dome. Also the Investigation report I believe came from the Arris dome not the Cronopolis Computer that everyone seems to claim. Which means lavos disappears to begin to nest to clone itself into the time devourer. The future is actually El nido not zenan.
Say, what!? I think you're a bit confused...
Lavos destroyed the future...and there were survivors. He couldn't have completely obliterated the world, for then it couldn't reproduce.
The investigation report COULDN'T have come from Chronopolis, considering in Home World, the future is the ruined one (Since Home has no physical past further than 1010 A.D., and Crono time travelled in 1000 A.D.). It might be something from the Arris dome, but there's no real proof to back that up (other than it's very similar to the recording Crono saw.)
Lavos "disappeared" because when Crono and crew defeated him, he was sent to the Darkness Beyond Time. There is only one Lavos, whether as himself in Chrono Trigger or as the Time Devourer in Chrono Cross.
El Nido is indeed a by product of the future Crono and crew saved, considering El Nido would not exist had Belthasar not been gated into the prosperous future and formed Chronopolis, created FATE, and terraformed El Nido. Though I'm slightly confused as to what you're saying. Do you mean that El Nido is the only bits of land remaining from Lavos's attack, way far in the future after the dust has settled etc.? That's impossible for a number of reasons...Porre exists, Kid was raised by Lucca, who lives in the 1000 A.D. era. In the Dead Sea, Miguel talks about it being the condension of a future that was ERASED, so El Nido can't possibly be the remnants of Zenan way far in the future in the Lavos timeline...
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How can you have a double post 1 hour later... With no edit... lol
But Yeah. But it wasn't Belthasar who Terraformed El Nido. It was FATE's control over the last Chronopolis staff members that allowed everything to happen. FATE was programmed to secure the future so it could not be not made and stuff, and it wasn't really Bethasars programming, cuz he dissapeared a while before the Counter Time Experiment or before FATE had even been finished. He just started it.
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AuraTwilight actually had a post in between it with a quote of herself, and it mysteriously disappeared (I'd assume deleted), and so it looked like a double post. And accidental double posts aren't always the twitch-click variety.
Yes, I don't know how it happened, but my second post WAS there for a reason (Gasp, I'm NOT trying to flood the forums!? =P)
Oy, yes I know Belthasar terraformed El Nido. I just happened to word it incorrectly, and it doesn't change the fact that if no belthasar = no FATE. So in a way, he's responsible
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AuraTwilight actually had a post in between it with a quote of herself, and it mysteriously disappeared (I'd assume deleted), and so it looked like a double post. And accidental double posts aren't always the twitch-click variety.
Yes, I don't know how it happened, but my second post WAS there for a reason (Gasp, I'm NOT trying to flood the forums!? =P)
Oy, yes I know Belthasar terraformed El Nido. I just happened to word it incorrectly, and it doesn't change the fact that if no belthasar = no FATE. So in a way, he's responsible
You can delete your own posts. Press the "X" icon.
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Er, I don't see the X on the post I want deleted...is it near the quote and edit tags?
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Er, I don't see the X on the post I want deleted...is it near the quote and edit tags?
The "delete" button should be to the right of the "edit" button. Zeality might have disabled that function for regular members. For the time being, you can ask a moderator to delete your posts.
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No, it still works for regular members. You can only delete your post if it's at the very end of a thread though, so once someone replies, that post can't be deleted.
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No, it still works for regular members. You can only delete your post if it's at the very end of a thread though, so once someone replies, that post can't be deleted.
Thanks, I've been a moderator since forever, so I wasn't aware of how that worked. Anyway, if you mess up your post, you can ask a moderator to delete it for you.
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Guess What?
I was playing just now. And Garai said to Norris that The Dead Sea was not the Dead Sea until 3 years ago. In other words, The Sea of Eden existed till 1017. :)
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3 years ago it just came into existance, or 3 years ago it was discovered as the Dead Sea.
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Well he basically says it was the sea of eden till 3 years ago.
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Can you get me a quote?
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"The Dead Sea... That ocean was called the Sea of Eden until 3 years ago... This may just be the clue we were looking for." - Radius
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I believe they didn't rename it Dead Sea until 3 years ago because nobody ever knew about the change until 1,017 AD:
Radius:
I believe it has been
4 years since I retired
from the Dragoons...
Sigh...
Time sure does fly...
I was shocked to hear of
Dario's death 3 years ago...
And now, the general
and the others are
missing...
The manor is in
shambles...
I took the liberty
of conducting my own
investigation, but
I have discovered
nothing...
All I know is that
a man named Lynx
approached the general
and has involved him
in some kind of incident.
The only difference
with the other world
you talk about
is that something has
happened to the general
3 years ago...
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Just wondering, how could Viper and the Dragoons have entered the Dead Sea anyways...It's completely blocked off until you get the fiddler crab, and I don't think they used it as well...
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Lynx was probably able to open the passage.
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There are many complications. Like Miguel says that when he was in the dead sea, it wasn't that way for a while, well atleast not up until 1010. But it doesn't mean that the Dead Sea automatically appeared there. Miguel would have been destroyed if that was true. The Dead Sea must have appeared slowly, because the dimensional split would make 2 copies, and both would go on their own path.
Oh, and the island destruction theory is probably true. The distortions of the FATE islands are what caused the Dead sea to be destroyed. If you look at the FMV, the fire comes from the 3 islands, and I have pics if u want.
Also, The date of The Tower of Geddon is 2400, not 2300 as it should be. The Tower of Geddon was built probably in 2400, so there's also that problem.
Also, the main thing blocking the Dead Sea is 1) The poisonus coral and 2) The Masamune.
Whatever Lynx did, he was able to pass the coral, unless he was the one who used the Masamune.
Also, after many quotes, it seems that NPC's said that a dragon rules the Dead Sea. And that in particular is the Sky Dragon because he was there. Even Harle says that the Earth around the Dead Sea was condemned by the Dragon Gods.
So what the hell is going on?
And why does Miguel say that we have to destroy FATE so that we can build a "new future for humanity"? Is FATE causing this? Well if FATE can remove the Dead Sea, then it may have caused it to appear.
Also, before you get to the portal that get's you into Leene Square, Harle comments on how that even though they're inside a building, something should not be there, It looks like this huge ventalation thing, or the wings of the Blackbird Oo
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About Lynx getting in...this reminded me of the scene when Karsh reminisces on Dario's corruption. When Karsh is still shocked over what he's done, Lynx walks in and starts talking. After Karsh walks off, he casually picks up the Masamune and walks away, unaffected. Is that because he essentially is Fate, and thus cannot be corrupted by evil human emotions?
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Is that because he essentially is Fate, and thus cannot be corrupted by evil human emotions?
I think it's because he is already evil. You can't make someone even more evil.or can you?
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You can't really call a machine evil...and I never found FATE as evil, per se. More like, "Goal driven" Willing to do anything to keep everything in order.
(In case you missed this, Lynx is revealed to be the incarnation of FATE in Chronopolis.)
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Lynx's mind did got corrupted when he went into Serge's body. Dark Serge terrorized villagers and traveled around in El Nido with Kid instead of going straight to Chronopolis to get the Frozen Flame.
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The reason would be why....... Why did he do it..... unless Lynx gained a soul during the process.
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The reason would be why....... Why did he do it..... unless Lynx gained a soul during the process.
I think Lynx wanted to make everybody turn on Serge if he was able to get his body back. So he raises hell for a while, then goes and then heads over to Chronopolis and goes and rules the world.
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Or he could've been driven totally INSANE by the ridiculously obscenely incredible power of the Frozen Flame after accessing it for the first time.
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or the Tear of Hate did it.
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or the Tear of Hate did it.
Gah, you took just what I was going to say! I was thinking that possibly the Tear of Hate took whatever bitter feelings he had inside and increased them ten-fold.
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I don't think the Tear of Hate has that power. Otherwise wouldn't Serge become all snuggly with Kid after he reconstitutes himself? Like, alot?! I think the Love/Hate thing of the Dragon Tears is just symbolic of them being from different dimensions and how uniting them breaks Liminality and crap and basically makes an Anti-Frozen Flame or something.
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Wasn't Kid AWOL from the party when Serge gains his real body back? So even if he wanted to get "snuggly" with Kid, he'd have had no chance, considering she's off doing her thing and isn't seen until Chronopolis, where she then puts herself into a coma, until Serge revives her via Mastermune.
Another thing; this is what Radius says to you after you've revived her:
Radius: Thank goodness... This must be the power of Serge's love. Hoh-hoh-hoh!!!
Though, I do agree with you to an extent...the Tears of Hate/Love are most likely, at the core, symbolic. But, the more literal interpretation has some merits as well.
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Well Serge was kind've in love with her anyway. And technically, It was Mastermune's power that saved Kid. That due's a hopeless romantic :P
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Pffft, I still stand that Serge is an emotionless tool and that he's only as 'in love w/Kid' as you make him out to be...
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Exactally. We know that Kid and Harle have feelings for him, but he doesn't show them. So we're expected to know that he still likes Leena, so that's why they get back together at the end of the game.
And then there's the whole deal with Schala, and how she wants to find him. Well, if she doesn't love him like she wants to be his wife, maybe he's really a reincarnation of Janus Oo
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Exactally. We know that Kid and Harle have feelings for him, but he doesn't show them. So we're expected to know that he still likes Leena, so that's why they get back together at the end of the game.
And then there's the whole deal with Schala, and how she wants to find him. Well, if she doesn't love him like she wants to be his wife, maybe he's really a reincarnation of Janus Oo
Well, them getting back together is more based on the fact that he's forgotten everything he's done, so to him nothing's happened except that he passed out on the beach for a few minutes.
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Nightmare, quick as always to hop on the train that leads to flame city, eh?
Pffft, I still stand that Serge is an emotionless tool and that he's only as 'in love w/Kid' as you make him out to be...
Totally. I do not understand the Planet's infatuation with him...making him the arbiter, having four girls chase after him etc.
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i really want to know whats going on...
Edit: Images removed by Moderator.
(these aren't me...)
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Don't spam..... And don't ask stupid questions unless you've read the topic... Maybe that way you'll find out what we're talking about (well the level headed people atleast).
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Questions raised:
1. What is the cause of the Dead Sea's destruction?
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1. Frozen Flame Idea
Inquiry
The Dead Sea is stated to be the resurrection of the original ruined future averted by Crono and his crew when they defeated Lavos. How was this future resurrected, and how is Serge related to it?
Mitosis notes:
Well, I guess that's a no-go then.
But thinking about how Lavos multiplies, I notice it's asexual. This is pretty easy to figure out, because there's only one on the planet, and there's no way in hell it has a gestation period of several million years.
So the next logical idea is that it produced by asexual division, Mitosis or Meiosis. Starfish reproduce in a similar fashion. If you cut a starfish into five pieces, it will grow into 5 new starfish. This might have something to do with the first thing Lavos does when it unburrows from the planet (and its little pocket dimension). It attempts to preform a high-speed mitosis or meiosis and launches spires off itself to spread them around the world. The widescale destruction this causes is most likely a side-effect, but negligible, because the world by this stage of Lavos' cycle is more than fit enough to support myriad lifeforms. Killing a few billion people just means that there will be more food for its infant spawn to slowly grow, mature, and eventually launch themselves into space in search of their own planets.
If this is true, then perhaps the Frozen Flame is a piece of Lavos that either had its growth halted or severly stunted by its father piece. Why would Lavos do this? A few reasons.
1) A backup plan. If Lavos reproduces via meiosis or mitosis, then it retains memory genetically. This clone would for all intents and purposes BE lavos. Laucnhing a premature chunk of itself would serve the dual purpose of it being its link to the surface and a backup piece of itself.
2) Lavos cant have another version of itself maturing at the same time as it's trying to guide the planet to be able to sustain multiple powerful life forms. It needs to be able to drain a specific ammount of energy from the planet before it can reproduce, as Mitosis and Meiosis are a severe drain of energy.
so, when Lavos was removed from history by Chrono and Co, the Frozen Flame put into plan its backup, by corrupting FATE and tossing it back in time, and allowing it to create a stable self-contained environment, it had a mini-planet to begin draining from to start its maturation. Serge's predicament was most likely planned from the begining. His being there and almost dying in 1010 created a perfect opportunity to give the Frozen Flame infinite time to mature. When Wazuki/FATE was killed by Kid, this created a vacancy of FATE in Home World, meaning that El Nido was no longer guided toward the time when Chronopolis existed. This created the Dead Sea, which might be seen as a place held in an infinite time loop.
With an infinite 10,000 year loop, the Frozen Flame could mature and grow into a full Lavos being, then burrow and halt the loop by hiding in a pocket dimension, then emerge from the pocket dimension in 11,010 AD, bringing about the destruction seen in the Dead Sea.
Sentenal wrote:
If that was indeed him seeding the planet, then how come the only place where you find Lavos Spawns at is on Death Peak?
Migration, probably. They would want to go to the area where their spawner was last, as there would be easy access to the PD so they could start siphoning off the remaining vestiges of energy in the planet before launching themselves into space.
Also, as stated above, Death Mountain may be Lavos' corpse after splitting off into several pieces.
And as for the "why destroy the planet?" thing, I imagien young lavos are very vulnerable, and probably only have the shell of their creator's spire as their initial protection. By devastating the dominant lifeform of the planet, it increases each spawn's chance for survival.
This kind of "spreading seeds" thing is seen alot in nature, especially in insects and reptiles, and other species that dont reer their young. I highly doubt Lavos reers its young, or even stays alive much longer after reproduction.
Edit - another explanation may be that the Lavos Spawn at Death Mountain are the last remaining ones, and that being at the point of exit means the area there isn't as energy ripe as the rest of the world was in 1999, thus they've not yet met their energy requirements for interplanetary launch. The others had probably left decades before, having a wealth of area and energy at their disposal.
Could have use in the Lavos article. The actual theory needs to take into account how the Dead Sea instantly forms.