Chrono Compendium
Enhasa Halls - Chrono Series Analysis => Characters, Plot, and Themes => Topic started by: flea plus on December 16, 2003, 02:54:24 am
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I was wondering because on other websites i was on it said that he died when porre attacked in 1005. plus if he was alive i think that he would have stoped lynx from killing lucca.Inless I missed something in chrono cross
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We believe not, considering that Lucca's drawings of Crono were done by children who lived after the attack.
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Maybe Lucca was just telling the kids stories from her past, because I think that one of the pictures was of Frog/Glenn. Those pictures that were on the wall could have just been what they saw in Lucca’s pictures of the crew, because in Chrono Trigger’s PSX version it shows Crono looking at the photos and remembering old times. It could have been that kids have seen those pictures and made drawings of them out of respect for saving the world. I remember one other thing that kid said in Chrono Cross; she said that they were poor at Lucca’s orphanage. You would think that if Crono were alive that he would have given money to Lucca for the orphanage because he married Marle. One more thing; in the picture it was Glenn in a Frog body, not human.
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Here's the archived discussion on this subject. Have any of you seen Frog among the pictures? I remember striving to find him, but failing.
I wish to point out that if Lucca's burning is correctly dated at 1015 A.D., Crono may very well be alive. A child's drawing of him hangs in the back passage way. Considering the age of children, it couldn't have been done before the fall of Guardia.
Wow...good point. In fact, regardless of whether the date is correct, Crono would almost have to be alive. Consider the following: Kid, in 1020, is 16. She is able to talk to Serge coherently enough that she would have to be 6 or 7 at the youngest during the fire. Simple math dictates that the fire would have to have occured in or after 1010. The Fall of Guardia was in 1005.
Unless those were drawn in 1005, before the Fall of Guardia and Lucca simply left them up for memory, which is unlikely, given the fact that they did not appear to be framed or in any way protected from the elements, and even the inside of a house is not away from the elements enough to preserve something so unprotected for five years or longer. (Yay for runon sentences...as I write this I'm in the newsroom for TCU's newspaper...ironic...)
Also, since Robo and Ayla (and maybe Frog too? Can't quite remember) are depicted in the pictures as well, perhaps they continued to travel through time after the events of CT. Interesting how much a closer look at such a small detail can reveal...
I think that Guardia XXXIII might have still been king (unless, of course, he died because the Guardia line seems to have short life spans), and so Crono and Marle very well could have been spared. Indeed, they may not have even been in the area, or the era, at the time of the fall.
Of course, if they were in the castle, they most likely would have been executed, whether they were the rulers or not...see the Bolshevik Revolution (and the mystery of Anastasia) for a historical parallel.
Regarding the drawings.... First, I assume they were by Kid, since Kid is the only child at the orphanage who is important to the story, and the entire orphanage sequence exists to shed light on her character. Second, despite their childish look, they are really quite accurate. This leads me to believe that Kid actually _met_ the heroes from CT, including Crono and Marle. Perhaps not all at once, but over time. Since this scene takes place _after_ the fall of Guardia in 1005 AD, I have to think that Crono and Marle survived the kingdom's "fall," and, therefore, might still be alive in the time of CC (in Another). As for Lucca, in my opinion it is pretty clear that she was killed by Lynx when the attempt to have her disable the Prometheus lock failed (probably because she refused to do it). Kid calls Lynx a murderer, Lynx makes a comment about Kid avenging Lucca, and he also tells Kid that he will "send her to Lucca." What more need be said? Oh, and about King Guardia. I think he was probably still reigning in 1005 AD. He seemed to still be in the prime of his life in 1000 AD (or so I thought), so I don't seem him croaking off in so short a time period. So, Marle is probably still Princess Nadia and Crono, upon his marriage to Marle, probably became Prince Crono or Lord Crono or something like that. Depending on the way their monarchy works, he may or may not become king; in many traditions, Nadia would become Queen, since she is the child of the King, but Crono, despite being her husband, would not become monarch himself. (This is assuming that Guardia's monarchical system even survives the disaster of 1005 AD.)
Crono and Marle: Well, we all know the two got married. But I doubt that in 5 years Crono would become King. I believe that he and Marle probably escaped the destruction and are laying low. And, if Lucca is still alive, they may have had a hand in that.
Besides, here's something else. Kid is 16... which means that Lucca had to have found her around 1003 or 1004. And in Lucca's letter to Kid, she states this:
Quote:
P.S. Cut out the tomboy act! Believe me! You'll become a beautiful young lady one day, or my name isn't "Lucca the Great!"
So for Kid to develop a Tomboy act, I'm assuming she may have been between 5-7 years old... probably around the time Lucca got kidnapped (did they give you a date of the year she was kidnapped? I don't remember). Which means Lucca probably wrote the letter around 1009-1010 or something like that. Roughly 5 years after the fall of Guardia. In the letter, she speaks of her 'friends.'
Quote:
That is why I worry that someone might seek revenge on us for what we did. I have had a constant dread in my heart that someone in our new future will travel back in time, just like we did, and try and kill or capture my friends and me.
She speaks of her friends in the plural and present tense, as if they're still alive and kickin'. I'm assuming she is talking about both Crono and Marle (and perhaps Magus, if he's hangin' around 1000 AD).
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thanks for the archived discussion it cleared up the timeline.As for the picture of frog it was in the hallway that leades to the kiction but is blocked by the fire use the ice gun on it.It is hard to tell if it is frog or not but it look like him.I tryed to press x on it but nothing comes up.It looks like frog but i could be wrong.As for crono going in hading I dont think he would do that.If he would die once to save his friends I dont think that anything scarys him.
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No problem. Welcome to the Compendium, flea plus.
Of course, some of this is still open; on Opassa Beach the ghost of Lucca clearly states that Crono, Marle, and herself are dead in Home. The Chrono Cross, of course, rewrites history.
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I Dont know if you,know of a game called radical dreamers for the super nintendo?On gamefaqs massage board it said that magus was a guy named magil in it.It also said that magus is guile in chrono cross.Do you know if that is true?Also is radical dreamers connected to chrono cross or trigger?I know iam asking a lot of question but the story is hard to understand.
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Radical Dreamers is like a seprate dimension from Trigger and Cross; a few things are different, and yes, Magil is Magus. It was intended as a sequel to Chrono Trigger; a full review can be found in the review section.
Contrary to popular wishes, Guile is not Magus in Chrono Cross. This was explicitly denied by Masato Kato, the writer of the Chrono series.
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/!\ SPOILER /!\
In Radical Dreamers, Crono is dead, but we don't know how and why.
Kid wants to find the Frozen Flame because Lucca wanted to put it on a "childhood friend"'s tomb...
mmh I don't know how did Lucca knew about the Flame existence, but I think she wanted to use it to ressurect (once again) Crono.
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I'm just proposing an idea here, but i think that Crono and Marle lived. Why? Well, when the ending rolls around, and crono is congratulated by several people in the line of the leaders of Guardia, Doan was there. Since this takes place AFTER the defeat of Lavos, wouldn't that mean that someone in the line of the Guardia royal family would have lived, so that Doan could have existed? Since there is not particular mention of Marle having any siblings, it would be left to her to continue the family line. Since Crono and Marle got married, according to the playstation version, isn't it possible that they would have lived through the fall of Guardia?
If there's any problems with this idea, go right ahead and tell me.
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That's an interesting post Fxeni, but there is one flaw: Chrono and Marle might have already had a kid before the fall of Guardia.
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Well, I suppose the deadline for having a kid might be 1015 A.D., since that is the latest Lucca may write a letter to Kid talking of her 'friends' in the present tense.
Welcome to the Compendium, Fxeni! And good observation. It indeed stands reasonable that Doan would continue to exist, as Lucca had to extract him from the future after the defeat of Lavos; if the act of killing the parasite had affected this in any way, Doan wouldn't have existed in the future Lucca traveled to.
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Hmm, excellent point, rotorkid. Well, I knew there was bound to be some flaw :lol:
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That's an interesting post Fxeni, but there is one flaw: Chrono and Marle might have already had a kid before the fall of Guardia.
Ah, but surely if Crono and Marle were killed in the Fall of Guardia simply for being next in line for the throne, any children they had would have been killed too, for the same reason.
A thought, though...I wonder if Lucca saw that Guardia had fallen when she went to get Doan? I mean, surely...
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Well, I think we can be sure, in light of a whole lot of other things, that CC is not always in accordance with itself in terms of temporal events and such. Also, as I have pointed out in regards to the Frozen Flame in another topic, it seems to, at times, contradict what is shown in CT, and one can only decide whether to trust the older or newer game as to the matter of the truth.
Now, I would like to believe that Crono lived. If nothing else, it would make for a nice cameo should Chrono Break come out. Upon reading these replies, I find myself at somewhat of a variance in regards to his living or dying, however. Both sides bring up valid points, and I am unsure which is the correct one, if there even is one truth in this matter.
It is true that should, at some point, Guardia fall to Porre, Lucca would see this in her summoning of Doan at the end of Chrono Trigger. But I am not entirely sure whether Doan's existance proves Guardia's. I cannot remember, but does it ever say that he is a descendant of Guardia? Though the land's name may remain, the people may long ago have been assimilated into Zenan's main culture, even as Brits don't exist in Britain anymore as they did 1500 years ago. As for the other hints towards Crono being alive...I should think that Lucca's referal to someone coming to kidnap her friends is a pretty strong indicator of life, unless 1)she, knowing of the intricacies of time is speaking in some strange extra temporal sense (unlikely), 2.) the letter was written at some earlier time, before the fall of Guardia, 3.) the designers put little thought into the tenses in which they wrote/translated. It is the third that really makes me wary of this theory. And now we come to Crono's death.
While Crono can certainly take care of himself well enough, we must note that Guardia did indeed fall. This means that, for better or worse, Crono failed as prince in some regards, and let his land be overrun. If he lived through this calamity, then he is without a doubt an outlaw and guerrilla warrior. No man can wage a fifteen year war without it becoming a hit and run type. But if we look at such a thing realistically, he would likely have died. First of all, unless he gained some wisdom since his younger years, he would stupidly stand by the castle until it fell. Secondly, even if he did survive there is a great chance that through some trap he was killed in the intervening years. Maybe not, he is a very lucky warrior, after all, but this is a very likely thing. It is simply theory and interpolation of events, however. What we do know is that the ghosts of Lucca/Marle/Crono profess themselves to be dead. The only event that changed between the end of CT and CC concerned El Nido, not Guardia, and so if they are dead in one dimension, they are certainly dead in the other. This seems near iron-clad, but for the fact that they are ghosts. They may not be speaking in the strictest sense that we know. They may simply be a shadow of what may have been, some other future of the three, that no longer exists; they never say that they are dead, merely that they no longer exist in this timeline.
All these are certainly speculations, and really don't resolve the issue, I know. I've just summarised several of the things that have been said and that are already known. My own theory, stepping back and trying to take the view of the designers and what the intent was, is this: they are dead. It makes sense from the designer view; make a game in which the old heroes are all dead and gone, and leave the heroics for the new generation. The old wizard who helped the last company now joins the new; he and his sister are the connecting pieces between the two tales (not in the final game, surely, but I have heard that Guile being Magus was at some point intended). The torch has been passed on, in a sense. Though the letter seems somewhat ambiguous, a lot of writing can seem so if carefully scrutinized. I wager it was simply meant to be a letter from beyond the grave, a last call from the old group to the new, reminding Kid of her task and, in the earliest drafts, revealing the mysterious magician to be their old nemisis turned ally Janus, who is named for the Roman God of Beginnings and Endings. I think that the intent in this letter was no more than this, and was not meant in any way to suggest the the three live any more. Likewise, though the ghost's words can be taken somewhat ambiguously, I don't think that ambiguity was the intent when their speeches were written. If the writers never had any intent to bring back the three, then to kill them off distantly makes sense: it's the old shock value/ nostalgic sadness trick to add emotion. They killed Lucca, why not Crono and Marle? This is my opinion on the matter, from the overall impression I am left with.
Now, all this isn't to say that SE, if they ever make a sequel, will not find some way to ressurrect Crono. Many loopholes exist, to be certain. Or they could just go fully against what was said in CC, as CC at times contradicts CT, and pull them back out of the blue; their deaths were not put into the forefront anyway, and would not constitute a major breach of continuity.
Hmmm...I wonder if anyone will reply to this. The last few lengthy posts I have made seem to have been greeted with utter silence. Is it just an illusion, or is my posting a harbinger of the death of a thread?
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The only event that changed between the end of CT and CC concerned El Nido, not Guardia, and so if they are dead in one dimension, they are certainly dead in the other.
That's non sequiter logic for multiple dimensions. Whenever dimensions split, they are totally seperate, not just locally. For example, in one dimension Porre invaded, while in the other they didn't. Even if the non-invasion was the result of their defeat at the hands of the Dragoons, then that in and of itself would still alter Zenan. In both cases, the Zenan continent is inevitably altered, and the events in one do not neccessarily happen in the other.
When universes split, they are completly seperate and isolated, with neither one having any bearing on the other. In other words, if Crono died in one world, it wouldn't mean he did in the other as well. It doesn't mean he didn't, but it is not required that he did. And that doesn't even begin to answer the question of whether he did in the resulting unified world is a totally different one.
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Ah, point taken. It has been a year and a half since I last played CC, and I am writing from memory and forum discussions. I had forgotten about that invasion. That makes it certain that the events that are different in both dimension are not simply isolated to El Nido, but affect Zenan as well. Very well then, my comments only hold true for the home dimension, to which the ghosts belong. It is stated, however, that this is the "true" dimension, but considering Serge is not erased from time at the end (as he should be dead in the "true" dimension), I do not know what consequenses this has for time as a whole. I still think that Crono's death was the intent, but in light of what you have said it can lead to countless possibilities in CB, if such a game should eventually take shape; and intent hardly shapes truth.
And it is nice to see that I was mistaken, and that my posts do not herald the ending of a thread.
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(sorry you can delete this)
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I was wondering because on other websites i was on it said that he died when porre attacked in 1005. plus if he was alive i think that he would have stoped lynx from killing lucca.Inless I missed something in chrono cross
They have died.
Actually, I belive that Lynx might have something to do with the whole event.
On gamefaqs massage board it said that magus was a guy named magil in it.
This part is correct.
Magil is Magus. ^_^
There were many clues in the game to suggest that.
The fact that Magil/Magus recognized the Masamune in Viper Manor, that he knew it's owner, his stories about Zeal, the fact that he's able to use magic and the fact that he's able to "hover", etc.
Anyway, Magil *is* Magus.
It also said that magus is guile in chrono cross.Do you know if that is true
Ok. This is wrong.
It is based on some truth though. ^_^
As you all probably know, Chrono Cross plot was somewhat based on Radical Dreamers'.
So the initial idea was the character of Magus will appear in 'Chrono Cross' just like in 'Radical Dreamers'.
But then, in a much later in development stage, it was realized that the whole mystic/speical/mysterious (you name it ;) ) Magil (Magus) - Kid relationship is very faint due to the massive amount of PCs (playable characters) unlike 'Radical Dreamers' in which the game focuses in the adventures of Serge, Kid and Magil.
Therefore it was decided to CHANGE the character and name him Guile in order to preserve the special relationship between Kid/Schala and Magus that was introduced in 'Radical Dreamers'.
Guile was NOT intended to be Magus.
Magil was, and that's why so many people think the character of Guile resembels Magus (mostly in appearance and name).
But he simply isn't Magus.
Also is radical dreamers connected to chrono cross or trigger
I would have to say 'Chrono Trigger'.
While the events of 'Chrono Trigger' and 'Radical Dreamers' happen in the same universe but in a DIFFRENT TIME period,
'Radical Dreamers' and 'Chrono Cross' both occur in DIFFRENT DIMENSIONS.
Contrary to popular wishes, Guile is not Magus in Chrono Cross. This was explicitly denied by Masato Kato, the writer of the Chrono series.
Exactly. ^_^
Kid wants to find the Frozen Flame because Lucca wanted to put it on a "childhood friend"'s tomb...
mmh I don't know how did Lucca knew about the Flame existence, but I think she wanted to use it to ressurect (once again) Crono.
That's exactly what she wanted to do....
But she have been perished by Lynx herself before she managed to just that.
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It sounds like your saying that the Radical Dreamers Dimension is the same as Another World, the original dimension where Serge died. That is no the case. Of the dimensions we know of they are: Reptite Dimension, Home World, Another World, Radical Dreamers. I never played RD, but if Crono is dead there, it does not mean he is dead in the other dimensions. It seems to me like he would have had to be alive until at least 1015ad. Crono's caption under his picture reads, "Crono is cool!" Tell me that doesn't sound like something a little kid would say. Lucca certainly wouldn't put something like that. If Crono were dead, don't you think the caption would read something more sad, like "I miss Crono", or something like that?
I also don't think hes a resistance fighter. If word got out to the Porre military that Crono, prince of Guardia, was making contact with that orphage, they would have done something about that. Then there's Lucca. We find a recipit (sp?) in Lucca's orphange, basically showing us Lucca had been selling technology to Porre. If Crono was fighting them, or Crono had been slain by them, why would Lucca continue doing bussiness with them.
The there is Lucca's letter.
And Lynx was created after the Fall of Guardia.
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Its so hard to say who lived, I think out of everyone Lucca did die. There is just way too much stuff leaning towards that to say otherwise. Crono and Marle are 50/50, it really goes down to how the monarchy system works. If they were in charge they most likely died, but if King Guardia was still at the helm I would say they lived.
The pictures though... it makes me think that there was a second adventure by the group. Or at least they got back together again.
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Those pictures should at least warrant their survival until 1015ad.
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What i dont get is How could crono be killed? HE was the strongest person on the planet for Yoda's sake! He destroyed lavos. I dont understand how he could lose in a duel (assuming that shadow was him in the PSX ending)
I personally dont think he was killed but im still wondering how the hell Guardia Fell. Crono NAturally wouldent let that happen. And i would love to know how porre raised the greatest army ever known in order to conquer guardia (then theres the whole thing of motive for doing so)
The whole Situration is very frustrating.
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I think the idea that Crono is dead comes from the fact that he would be there, and those "ghost children" in CC.
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Well yeah naturally But theres in the alternate dimension and all so.....?
But when i played thru CC i didnt realize that and freaked the hell out.
Did Crono Die? Theres evidence for both sides so whos to say really.
But Guardia DID fall. The question how the F did that go down?
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There are different theorys. As for motivation, I got no idea. Some say Dalton took over. Maybe they invaded for trade purposes, due to the Guardia-Medina ferry. I dunno on that one.
But as for the ablitity, they became a colonial power in the timeline where El Nido was created. Some have said that the Elements they found there would drastically increase their army's combat ablity. Or maybe they just increased it the old fashioned way.
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I have 2 theories as to why Crono wouldn't be able to defend Gaurdia:
1) Assuming that Porre did get elements, and elements were technically from the planet while magic, the source of most of Crono's power, indirectly came from Lavos, couldn't the elements neutralize Crono's overhwelming power?
2) I don't remember (correct me if i'm wrong) fighting any humans in CT, so maybe Crono is against violence in the war sense
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2) I don't remember (correct me if i'm wrong) fighting any humans in CT, so maybe Crono is against violence in the war sense
MAgus,Queen Zeal,Dalton,Flea(ok that may be reaching),Cyrus(although he was a ghost at the time)
And i think crono would defend his kingdom He Was the prince of Guardia at that point. For crono to have moral objection to defending against an (most likely) Unjustified attack on his kingdom is ludicrious
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Crono slaughtered Dalton's soldiers.
And we don't really know if the Porreans were the only bad guys. Perhaps some rogues took over Guardia and Crono had to help Porre attack them. Perhaps the only evil guy was the man who stole the Masamune, and both Guardia and Porre had to fight him. Since the battle was in Northern Zenan, the kingdom of Guardia was the one who fell anyway, and Porre just assumed control.
It's crazy but I say that because Lucca used to trade machines with Porre (there's a receipt in the orphanage) and the Porrean girl Luccia is her friend. So the situation was probably more complicated than just kind Guardia vs. evil Porre.
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What i dont get is How could crono be killed? HE was the strongest person on the planet for Yoda's sake! He destroyed lavos. I dont understand how he could lose in a duel (assuming that shadow was him in the PSX ending)
I personally dont think he was killed but im still wondering how the hell Guardia Fell. Crono NAturally wouldent let that happen. And i would love to know how porre raised the greatest army ever known in order to conquer guardia (then theres the whole thing of motive for doing so)
The whole Situration is very frustrating.
Easily. One man cannot victor against an entire army, no matter what his strength. You cannot think of this as a video game with Crono having 9999 health, or whatever else may be. I am certain he could slay a dozen, or a hundred, but overwhelmed he could indeed be slain. All heroes, even the great ones of legend, die. Herakles, Achilleus, Agamemnon, Beowulf, King Arthur... all of these were mighty warriors in their day, some unparalleled. King Arthur was the mightiest of knights, for example. Agamemnon was a mighty warrior, too, but he was killed by his very own wife upon returning home to Mycenae. The point of the matter is that strength does not preclude the invincibility of a hero. There are two lines from fantasy that I know of that best represent this; the first is from the Fall of Gondolin and, though I do not remember the precise words, it is something to the effect that 'the few cannot stand against the many'; the second is what Pippin says of Boromir in Return of the King: 'the mightiest man may be slain by one arrow, and Boromir was pierced by many.' Boromir was the hero of Gondor, and that is no mean kingdom: it is the last stronghold of old Numenor, and its returning king was last of that race. And looking further back, other heroes of that vein in Tolkien's writings share similar fates. Isildur, who cut the Ruling Ring from the hand of Sauron himself, was slain: he was killed by orcs as he fled from the disaster at the Gladden fields. This is probably the best example of what I am saying. Isildur performed a feat similar to what Crono did: he defeated one of the great evils of his world. Yet he even so died to the arrows of a mean soldier of the enemy. Fate has its way with men, even with heroes, after all, and the mighty are not apart from chance and destiny. That is how Crono may die: by mischance, or by an ill arrow, or by being thronged about by too many foes. He is mighty, but not immortal.
As for Guardia falling... it had stood for near on a thousand years. It's time had come. Name me an empire that has stood unconquered for such a span! Rome, maybe? But that is only from its earliest days upon the Palatine hill, to the very last days of the Emperor Romulus - 1200 years. Egypt was longlived, but not in such a long span. There were some 26 dynsties in its reign, broken into three kingdoms, seperated by periods of foreign rule. Likewise the Babylonians, the Assyrians, and Hittites... every kingdom falls under its own weight in time. It is a law of our world, and any world in which mankind would exist. The might of Porre, also, is not so surprising. Remember that the size of Guardia is shown as but a part representative of the whole (after all, such a small town would never amount for a kingdom.) Likewise Porre would perhaps be shown as this. It's speed of conquest is also not to be wondered at. It is likely that in the time of the Mystic conquests, they were held as allies, like the Latin league against the enemies of Rome in Italy, in the time of the Old Republic of Rome. In time, however, Rome turned upon its one-time allies, and one by one, they became part of Rome proper. Carthage arose to challenge them twice: first in the mid 200s BC, then again at the turn of 200 under the masterful general Hannibal. Yet both times Rome emerged victorious, finally destroying Carthage in the third war some fifty years later - more of a destruction than true war, however. The eyes of Rome then turned to other places. Consuls, with the power of Imperium, were given command of armies to conquer in areas: Julius Caesar, one of these, was given charge of the armies in Gaul, and once having defeated that army, crossed the Rubicon into Italy, marching on Rome herself. Thus began the end of the Republic and, with the ascension of Caesar Agustus, the Roman Empire. But this all was step by step. To the peope of the time, it would have seemed that Rome slowly took greater and greater powers. Here and there some tried to stop them, unsuccessfully. Some yet remained allies in certain wars, but later became enemies. It may well be that Guardia was one of these sorts of kingdoms. Porre likely marched on many places, and Guardia kept herself safe - and pacifistic as was her wont - until the eyes of Porre turned on her. Then there were none to come to her aid, and she fell. That would easily and realistically account for the seeming swiftness of Porre's rise: they had already begun their conquests a hundred years before, but seemed yet friendly because they were the allies of Guardia.
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I have 2 theories as to why Crono wouldn't be able to defend Gaurdia:
1) Assuming that Porre did get elements, and elements were technically from the planet while magic, the source of most of Crono's power, indirectly came from Lavos, couldn't the elements neutralize Crono's overhwelming power?
No, that wouldn't make any sense. How I see it is the elements are a lesser form of the magical abilities Crono realized. Think about it, these elements did not exist until after the events of Trigger. It's not like they were around forever, they are only found in El Nido. Also, magic doesn't have weakness to each other. If Lucca was struck by Ice 2 and Fire 2 she would receive near the same amount of damage (assuming she isn't wearing armor that has no reversable magic effects). But elemental damage depends on the innate ability of the victim.
In Zeal a woman in Kajar says that the groups magical abilities were primitive in comparison. Remember that magic does not only aid in fighting. Magus can fly, summon Lavos, and change peoples DNA structures. Elements can only be used in fighting situations.
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Daniel Krispin=Guardian of ages? Just curious.
After Crono and Marle's marriage, we don't know that Crono stayed in Guardia. We know that Marle didnt care for formalities like that, and Crono is a small-town youth. I think its possible that they didnt stay at the castle, and even possible that they just tryed to live a quiet life away from politics and war. Maybe the war just passed over their heads.
And we don't know that Porre would have executed the Guardia Royal Family after the war. Unless you want to say that the Bolsheviks and Porre are alike in all aspects.
We do know that there was at least one, very bloody incident in this war, and that was done by the person who stole the Masamune. The cutscene shows a town in flames, dead villagers on the ground, and a bloody Masamune.
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Assuming they were living in some remote area Wouldent it still make sense for BOTH of them to rise and defend thier kingdom? Even if they cared naught for politics they most certainly would rise and defend the weak and powerless. Also if the castle was overun (as it most certainly was) and King Guardia XXXIII being in danger of being killed (as he most likly was) both of them would want to protect thier father.
We know some poor soul Wielded the masamune in battle and was slain and the blade taken.
And what about the PSX ending with the two shadows going at it in a duel and the one shadow hwo looks remarkably like Crono being slain. (which if true goes against what D krispin's statement about how he was overwhelmed)
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And what about the PSX ending with the two shadows going at it in a duel and the one shadow hwo looks remarkably like Crono being slain. (which if true goes against what D krispin's statement about how he was overwhelmed)
Not neccessarially. It may have come to such form of single mortal combat in the end, but it was likely a hard battle long before - evident from the fires burning all about. If that was the case, he was likely weary of battle, and thus was overcome by a lesser foe.
However, in my opinion, I do not think it was Crono who wielded it. The Rainbow was his sword, and he would be loath to be parted from it, even for so mighty a blade as the Masamune. I tend to think it was rather some person from Guardia, driven by overmastering and zealous fire in the defence of his country that darkened and allowed his wrath to overcome him. In that case, the massacre of the people was not done by the wielder of the Masamune, but was done by the enemy of such a person, and served as the factory that led to the evil taint.
Oh, and just so everyone knows, yes, I am indeed Guardian of Ages. I wager there are no others hereabouts who would use the word 'wont' in a sentance, after all. I just figured it was time to cease using such a childish name, and now wish to rather use my real name.
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Well Crono Used Katana's anyway. He wouldent use another weapon type like the Masamune.
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We don't even know if the guy who got killed was using the Masamune. I always took that guy to be a guard of some sort.
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Well Crono Used Katana's anyway. He wouldent use another weapon type like the Masamune.
Not neccessarially, however. While the eastern sword-styles put much emphasis on long years of training - connected with philosophy and the like regarding it - in swordsmanship, I do not think the western traditions were so detailed. I am certain they had sword forms, after a fashion, and sword masters and all, but even the knights were not sword-fighters: they rode at the enemy with lances. What I mean to say is that if Crono had been trained, or perhaps simply learned through practice in battle (which I think is likely the case), to use a katana of an eastern style, the using of a western form sword would not pose a great difficulty. The swords are no heavier, and at least appear to be balanced more toward the hilt than the katanas are. For all accounts, I don't think Crono would have much difficulty using, say, a falchion, which is sharpened on one end. And a great sword such as the Masamune is, double-edged and two-handed, wouldn't be a great leap. It would probably be like a musician going from playing lead guitar to playing base. The instrument is a little different, but if one knows the musical theory by feeling, and has learned the patience and form that goes along with one, the other is not so difficult a stretch. However, the simple fact of the matter is that the Masamune would be hard for ANYONE to use rightly, even in a more western style. It's a horseman's sword, not an infantry sword, after all.
But anyway, western swords aren't that hard to use basically, and anything less than a two-handed greatsword (as the Masamune), are very light. Look at the Vikings, for example: they didn't really have any sort of sword-training, I wager. They just did whatever worked, and if you lived through the battle and were courageous, you got better. And they were fearsome warriors. And if ends came to it, I think Crono could use the Masamune in an eastern style if he wanted to. Look at the way Aragorn holds Narsil at the assault in the Hornburg in the Two Towers (just when he and his host of elves charge the advancing Uruk-Hai) - he holds his sword of and forward. I may be wrong, but that doesn't look like a western style to me. That looks more like the way that Crono holds his sword. And Narsil is a true greatsword of the western traditions.
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Well Yeah I dont think Crono would have trouble using it. That dosent mean he was the one who wielded it.
As for the masamune I wonder What happened to it after Glenn's Lifetime. Im sure glenn was the keeper of the sword untill his death but what do you suppose happened it it after wards? Did He give it to guardia to hold as a national treasure? (you could argue that he didnt because it wasent in the treasure room in 1000AD and you could argue that he may have and it just wasent shown/or more likely its an alternate timeline)Did Frog HAve it enshined somehwere else? Or did glenn pass it down to his children and so on down the line?
We assume that in the brief ending that it was one of the forces of guardia that wielded it agaisnt porre;and that porranian took it. and thus it turns to evil because the holder has a evil heart.
Any alternate therioes on this?
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We assume that in the brief ending that it was one of the forces of guardia that wielded it agaisnt porre;and that porranian took it. and thus it turns to evil because the holder has a evil heart.
Any alternate therioes on this?
I must take issue with this, unfortunately, though it is more a matter of specifics than anything else. The person holding the sword may not have had an evil heart, and may not have been an evil person at all (evil in the human sense - as I see it, all people are inherently evil as it is, thus no good people exist... but that is beside the point and irrelivant here.) You see, Masa and Mune themselves profess that it is not who wields the sword, but what they do with it. Thus a person who is by nature good, who even fights for good and thinks they are perhaps avenging or zealously defending Guardia, could have darkened the blade, simply by ruthlessly slaughtering those he saw as evil and as his enemies. The bearer of that holy sword must be very careful, then, in some ways like the Jedi in Star Wars must be. Whoever wields the sword affects it with his actions. Thus, even if he acts with good intentions, if what he does is evil, the sword is darkened. As we have seen by the example of Radius, this can in turn affect the wielder to further deeds, these being purposefully evil, further darkening the sword. A downward spiral that, in some respect, is similar to the spiraling path down the dark side. Thus, using the twin's own words, one may assume that whoever wielded it was not by nature evil, so needn't have been Magus or Lynx or whoever else has been speculated by nature of their dark natures. It may simply have been the knight champion of Guardia, such as Cyrus was on a time.
But as for who carried it in that last battle... personally, I have neither clue nor theory. Most time I see things one way, but know well enough what the likely intent was by those who made the game. It is not so plain here, however. It may perchance have been that hero Crono, but may just as well have been some other warrior of the land. And whose hands did it fall into? Some have said Lynx, others Magus. But it may just as well have been some other soldier and, perhaps, that soldier was not evil at the beginning. Rather, once dark, the sword acted akin to the One Ring of legend, possessing its owner to work its dark and murderous will, and passing from master to master in this fashion. It certainly fits with its hold upon the mind and spirit of Dario, does it not? And see, then: it may have been any of Porre that could have done this, even a common warrior carrying the sword abroad as war-spoil, like Isildur taking the ring for his own as wergild. That is what I think of official accounts. And for once, I have no personal theory on the matter either, and never speak of one in my writing: I step about the issue, and when Schala asks Crono of the matter, he says that he knows nothing of it, having left it behind in the ruin. Thus, my opinion on the matter is undecided.
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Changes in time dont happen until they are actually changed. Frog would not had given up his sword, for rest, storage, etc, until after CT. Therefore, we would not have a Masamune in the treasure room until after CT.
And I dont presume Guardia used it against Porre. I think it was sleeping away in the Royal Treasure Chamber. Remmber, Masa and Mune (while awake, at least) test those who would use it, in some form or another. Other than Crono, Lucca, and Marle, I dont think there would have been anyone in Guardia able to pass their test. I do think that what we saw was our mystery attacker, killing a guard, heading for the treasure chamber.
And I disagree that a Guardian Knight using it would make the sword evil, or anything like that. Killing an enemy in combat is not evil. Frog slaughtered many Mystics with the sword when they assaulted Magus' castle. I think the Sword was turned evil (and Masa and Mune knocked out) by the bloodbath that our attacker did following stealing it. The last scene in that ending shows a burning village, slain villagers covering the ground, and a bloody Masamune. I think that this is what caused it to go evil.
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Upon watching the video again, after the defended is slain, the attacker turns around and walks off. I think this would mean that the defender was not whielding the Masamune, as the attacker didnt stop to collect it from his corpes.
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I really doubt that any characters in CT were responsible for the swords corruption. I would assume that after Frog dies the sword would have been laid in front of his gravestone, it seems to be a recurring trend throughout Cross. So wherever Frog was buried would have been the locale of the legnedary sword. And I bet that after Frog died Masa and Mune went to rest assuming no one else would need the swords powers, considering its main purpose was fulfilled (destroying Lavos). And then whoever ganked the sword corrupted it because they were not worthy of carrying it, worthyness intwined with the reasoning behind them needing the sword not just who they are.
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Well, the reason I think the sword was corrupted when the stealer used to to kill alot of innocents in Guardia is because of how it looks. The sword still looked like a Broad Sword in that video. The sword only started looking like an Evil Red Tree Branch afterwards.
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Hey, Id it possible that the MasaMune is like a resemblence to the 'Excalibur'? Well here is my theory.
Before Frog's death in his time, he made a squire or someone who listened to him to return the sword to the dendario (sp?) mountains. But because Masa and Mune were already in the sword, no one was there to protect the sword for the years to come. Mystics could have passed the mountains, they hate energy building up around the mountain, the MasaMune absorbing it like it did to the Mammon Machine etc.
Then finally someone prior or during 1005AD gets it and uses it to lead an assult on Guardia.
All we have to go is find a type of person who would do something like that. I pick Crono's Cat. It would have been peeved if it had to travel through time XD
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Why couldn't her return the sword himself if he were still alive?
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I don't think thats very plausible, because the sword was still good (Not yet evil looking) in 1005. Plus, Masa and Mune arn't trapped in the Sword. They can come out any time they want to, it seems. After Frog layed the sword down, they could have surely still be its protectors.
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Well, there isn't really any hard evidence suggesting that Crono died in the events between Chrono Trigger and Cross. My personal opinion is that the ghost children in the Dead Sea weren't really "ghosts," because why would the cast of Trigger be mad at the Cross team for trying to correct the side effects that happened during the Trigger adventures? I believe the ghost children said something on the lines of "We worked so hard, but now you are ruining it." Forgive me, I'm working off of memory here! :shock: We have to remember, the Trigger team was imbued with magic. Just because the only magic we witnessed in the game was attack spells, it doesn't mean necessarly that is all they were limited too. As someone else said, notice that Magus could summon Lavos, fly, change the DNA structure of humans, etc. This leads me to believe that maybe, (most of) the Trigger team was just watching Serge and Co, and on Opassa Beach (home) they offered guidance to Serge because maybe they were conducting research and maybe doing some adventuring of their own in the background. Speculation, sure, but at least to me, it makes some sense.
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That almost works, but you have to remember that they were only taught battle magic by Spekkio, not any other uses. You have to remember that Magus grew up in Zeal, where magic was used for everything, so he would have known how to do these things before being gated. Also he was raised by mystics, who are the only species that can still use magic, besides the group of course. So for them to learn how to communicate with others through thier soul without anyone to teach them seems a little farfetched. That would have been like Obi-Wan communicating to Luke after his death without having Qui-Gon teach it to him.
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Even if Crono was able to still use his magic and was still at the top of his game when it comes down to fighting one also have to remember how many people hes fighting. One person alone cannot stop an entire army.. Even if they only did say.. 1 point of damage gameplay wise eventually even a high leveled Crono would be taken down if enough of them came at him. Not to mention that his magic would eventually run out as well.. And I'd doubt they'd give him a chance to rest in between battles. It would all come down to endurance if he tried to face them.
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Well, here is my take on it why such an idea is flawed.
Would Crono and Marle be fighting Porre alone? Or would they be commanding the Guardian Army? The type of fighting of that day and age, with muskeets and such, would be 2 armies line up, march up real clsoe to the enemy, and shoot each other until one side dies more than the other. Would Crono participate in such a battle? Why would he? Is Crono so stupid that he would charge a line of muskeets? No. If Crono ever did get into fights with the main Porrean Army, it would have been defending fortifications or such. There, be could use his magic to defend, without having to charge. Crono would more likely go behind enemy lines, and sack fortresses deep within enemy territory, striking at the enemy's heart. Thats what he did agianst Magus and the Mystics, Zeal, the Reptites, and to a lesser extend, Mother Brain's machines. The only time you see him participating in a battle is at Zenan Bridge, and there, your not charging lines of muskeets.
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Yes! Finally someone opened up my brain for the right explination.
If Crono and Marle actually fought in the war I doubt they would have been on the front lines. Like Sentenal said, it would be out of character. I see them more like special forces, going on secret ops missions to take out things that needed taking out. Sure they would be an asset on the battlefield, but they would be more of one if they could sneak into Porre strongholds and do some major damage.
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I got a question: I was reading about some of the CC endings, and about the ending where Kid goes to Viper Manor alone, and makes the Acacia Empire, or something like that. The encyclopedia says that Kid planned to take down both the Kingdom of Guardia and Porre. Now, I realize we can't take special endings as canon, but these special endings are 'what ifs', in the setting of the canon world. So, if that entry is right, that would make Guardia a soverign state still, would it not? So maybe Porre didn't conquer Guardia, just beat the living crap out of them. The we take a line from Radius (I think, I don't remmber exactly) that says that General Viper wanted to make El Nido like the Guardia of the past. I don't know what I'm getting at, but maybe Porre destroyed the Guardian army, and then simply forced a surrender. And, with their army in ruins, and no way to enforce the country, it fell into lawlessness. And then add on my idea that Crono would NEVER fight in a battle like how I previously described in a above post, and we could have Crono and Marle alive.
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you say crono would definetly fight to defend gaurdia, i disagree, crono has no fondness to royalty, he has fondness for marle, surely he would rather do anything in his power to make sure nothing happens to marle then go defend his new kingdom.
so i believe crono and marle fled to somewhere (as someone mentioned somewhere else), i would say to arni village, and they changed there names and such, crono = miguel, leena = crono and marles daughter.
we know leena is miguels daughter, and the name is very similair to queen leene from CT, and it would make sense that marle would call her daughter leene/leena due to her relationship with queen leene (you dont really notice it much but i have a hunch she looked to queene leene a bit like a mother, as her was dead).
as for the reason why i believe miguel is crono, and someone mentioned he has same hair colour, and would be around the right age, he obviously doesnt look exactly like crono (hat/glasses) as he would need to change his look to avoid being hunted by porre. in the dead sea after you defeat the ghost of marle says to miguel
"i love(d) you so much"
and then another line which i dont know exactly but it went a bit like
"i love you so much sometimes i just wanted to tear you apart"
(if someone can clear that up it would apreciated but its not really necesary, the first line is the important one.
afterwards miguel says something random, and then says something about leena (damn my bad memory), thus i believe miguel is crono.
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The second line is said by FATE if I remember right.
Miguel as Crono wouldn't make much sense since Miguel didn't use magic against the group when they fought. And his techs were nothing like anything Crono had. Also I think if he actually was Crono he would have reacted differently towards the ghosts, he just kind of sets them aside as nothing.
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Your idea requires both that Crono no longer use a sword, and change everything in his combative arsenal. Just because he looks that way, doesn't mean a single thing.
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My opinion?
1.) Nobility or not, Crono and Marle--not to mention Lucca--would absolutely be on the front lines fighting for Guardia. Wild horses couldn't hold them back. It's not just Guardia's sovereignty and prestige at stake, but the lives of the people they care about.
2.) Even though, in real life, no human being could withstand the onslaught of an entire army, CML are not, by 1005 AD, mere mortals. They are the Entity's chosen ones, super-ultra-powerful warriors with magical weapons and the special gift given them by Spekkio. They would, if not WIN, then at least survive.
3.) Trying to puzzle out how Crono feels about royalty, blah blah blah is pointless. You really can't ascribe much to Crono when it comes to his opinions and motivations. What we DO know is that he loves Marle, Marle loves the kingdom, and Marle's family is now Crono's family. To my mind, any suggestion that Crono would not, then, fight on Guardia's behalf is absurd.
Personally, I think this topic is a pain in the butt, because you either think the one way or the other, and it seems like nobody EVER changes their mind about it.
OdF
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If they're not mere mortals, why didn't they do anything in CC? Lucca was abducted.. She could have used hypnosis on Lynx, but nooo.
Their role was complete, there is no reason why they're become normal again, or atleast their powers not weaken. The entity wouldn't be stupid enough to let them keep the peak of their powers, otherwise they might turn evil with it. Maybe even Crono went mad and used the Masamune to destroy Guardia.
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The second line is said by FATE if I remember right.
Miguel as Crono wouldn't make much sense since Miguel didn't use magic against the group when they fought. And his techs were nothing like anything Crono had. Also I think if he actually was Crono he would have reacted differently towards the ghosts, he just kind of sets them aside as nothing.
his techs are white and as mentioned before crono's ulitmate spell luminaire is now a white spell, and it would generelly make sense for crono to be white, being the main hero guy. he does use magic, he used a load of white spells like meteor and photonbeam. seeing as he has been in the sea of eden for, how many was it? 10 years? 14? cant remember, but a long time, he most likely would of seen the ghosts before, and gotten used to them.
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Crono's Luminaire and Serge's Luminaire do not equals make.
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miguel also seems to know a lot of details about crono's journey, explain that. why would miguel respond to marle saying "i love you so much" if he did not have that type of atachment with her? leena being his daughter and leene being marle's predeccesor, coincidence? i think not, not much in these games are coincidence.
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miguel also seems to know a lot of details about crono's journey, explain that.
Those bastard ghost children blabbed to him.
leena being his daughter and leene being marle's predeccesor, coincidence? i think not, not much in these games are coincidence.
*cough*Glenn*cough*
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Miguel is connected to FATE. The Ultimania guide states that FATE filled Miguel with more knowledge then he could take at once. Maybe she filled him with the thing she knew best, the history of the world? He would then stay at the Dead Sea, knowing that his death is in the very core of history.
And FATE says the "I love you so much" part, and she is speaking to the human race in general. She loves the humans so much, she's their protector, but she's so jealous at them for being alive while she's just a machine she sometimes wants to crush them to bits.
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And FATE says the "I love you so much" part, and she is speaking to the human race in general. She loves the humans so much, she's their protector, but she's so jealous at them for being alive while she's just a machine she sometimes wants to crush them to bits.
how the hell do u know that :?
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I believe Crono had a very similar fate to Schala... not necc anything to do with merging with Lavos in some stupid non-time-bound dimension that crosses dmiensions and blahblahblah, but probably just missing somewhere, not dead.
And really, as this discussion is interesting a points, I think we can all agree that none of us will ever guess correctly. Remember how many "what hapenned to Schala?" fan-fics were out there? How many of them said that she was merging to form the Time Devourer? Yeah. I'm sure (if) when the next Chrono game comes out, the storywriters will come up with some really cool (confusing) plot that explains it.
I'd really like to look back and see what the forums theories were on what hapenned to Schala before Chrono Cross came out.
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Or maybe they'll rerelease/remake CC only w/new features and a new ending that'll be the basis branching off point for the next Chrono game :lol:
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And FATE says the "I love you so much" part, and she is speaking to the human race in general. She loves the humans so much, she's their protector, but she's so jealous at them for being alive while she's just a machine she sometimes wants to crush them to bits.
how the hell do u know that :?
FATE tells Serge before their battle: "Show me what it means to be 'alive'"
Belthasar states she's the defender of mankind.
Crono states she might of wanted to make a race of her own.
And then FATE says the: "I love you so much" bit. It's not that hard to connect those few bits to say: FATE loves mankind, she protects them, but hates them for being alive while she's not. She wants to make a race of herself, a living organism. Talk about highly-advanced AI.
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okay, you didnt explain how you know it was FATE saying that, but i guess we will never know the real truth unless the makers say so.
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okay, you didnt explain how you know it was FATE saying that, but i guess we will never know the real truth unless the makers say so.
Well, a Maker did say so. =_= Read the Ultmania Guide!
................................................................
The Love and Hate of a Machine that Dreams of Evolution
................................................................
"I love you so much... That is why I sometimes desire to smash you to
bits!!!" – Voice in the Dead Sea (= FATE)
While continuously protecting humanity, there was deep love and ??on top
that??, deep envy and hatred. The feelings FATE had for the humans was
complicated. After it acquired an incarnation [not sure?] that possesses a
human body, the feelings of the person of the original body held, inter-mixes
with the feeling of the already complicated FATE, as a result, the disorder
further intensifies, gradually leading to corruption. After that, the
destruction activities were manifestations of this complicated feeling. The
statement above [the "I love you so much..." statement], was said by FATE
when she had the Dead Sea destroyed, and it was directed to the entire human
race more than Serge.
http://db.gamefaqs.com/console/psx/file/chrono_cross_ultimania_translations_a.txt
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Kato said that? And really...how trustworthy has Ultimania proven in the past...?
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Kato said that? And really...how trustworthy has Ultimania proven in the past...?
Not Kato, but I get the feeling the Ultimania was done in conjunction with Kato, so I guess it is trustworthy. It has never proven trustworthy for the sole reason no one has ever proved that. But the FATE bit seemes to make sense to me. With so much knowledge of FATE's love for mankind and the will to be alive, it makes sense to me she would say: "I love you so much... And that is why I sometimes want to crush to bits."
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It makes perfect sense. I mean, OJ said that if he killed his wife, it would be only because he loved her so much. So, simply put:
OJ Simpson = FATE
Nicole = Humanity
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okay, you didnt explain how you know it was FATE saying that, but i guess we will never know the real truth unless the makers say so.
How do you know Kid says anything? How do you know Miguel says anything?
And if Miguel was Crono, where was the magic? Elements, which is what he used, are NOT magic.
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How do you know Kid says anything? How do you know Miguel says anything?
And if Miguel was Crono, where was the magic? Elements, which is what he used, are NOT magic.
kid doesnt say anything, miguel says something because it shows his head when he speaks, the box is next to marle and in the same position it is when you presume its marle speaking.
is it just me, or would you not call their "innate elements" magic?
but anyway, i'd like to go with the idea that seeing as spekkio taught them magic for their quest to destroy lavos, after they destroyed it they forget/unlearnt this magic, maybe spekkio disapeared when lavos was killed and took his magic along with him, do we know what power source this magic came from? the zealians used lavos, if they too used lavos this would mean they would loose their magic. theres loads of reasons really.
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FATE has no face. She's a computer, damnit. Besides, she wasn't quiet present there, but being the Entity she is, she could probably speak through the dimensions.
Besides, you don't see the Dragon God's face in Terra Tower. But it's him speaking. So meh.
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huh? wat are ya talking about?
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FATE has no face. She's a computer, damnit. Besides, she wasn't quiet present there, but being the Entity she is, she could probably speak through the dimensions.
Explaining why you never saw her face.
Besides, you don't see the Dragon God's face in Terra Tower. But it's him speaking. So meh.
Me lamenting the fact that not every dialouge has a face animation. Some dialogues don't have dialogue boxes.
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FATE has no face. She's a computer, damnit. Besides, she wasn't quiet present there, but being the Entity she is, she could probably speak through the dimensions.
Explaining why you never saw her face.
Besides, you don't see the Dragon God's face in Terra Tower. But it's him speaking. So meh.
Me lamenting the fact that not every dialouge has a face animation. Some dialogues don't have dialogue boxes.
i never said anything about not seeing fates face, i said the dialogue box was coming from marle, unless marle never actaully spoke it was in the same position, assuming the idea that it was marle talking.
yes i know you dont always see a face, and most of the time when you dont see a dialogue box is when the object doing the speaking is not on the screen, through my experiences that is the only time ive ever noticed it, and the dialogue with the lines i aformentioned were in a box leading to the clear assumption it was something on the screen doing the talking.[/quote]
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And if Miguel was Crono, where was the magic? Elements, which is what he used, are NOT magic.
So, according to you Ozzie, Slash and Flea in CC are imposters because they don't use magic as the Mystic Warriors did in CT?
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The Dragon God is quiet on the screen, and he has no dialogue box...
Besides, I can crush your theory easily by saying this: FATE has a reason to say this, while Marle neither loves Serge nor does she wish to crush him to bits. In the Dead Sea, the kids are just teasing you, as if to make you more aware. Besides, that wasn't in Marle's side of the screen, it was on the CENTER of the screen.
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So, according to you Ozzie, Slash and Flea in CC are imposters because they don't use magic as the Mystic Warriors did in CT?
Actually, some people do theorize that. Which may not be relevent if the Bend of Time is like a Q Continuum, making magic impossible as long as Serge and co. are there.
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kid doesnt say anything, miguel says something because it shows his head when he speaks, the box is next to marle and in the same position it is when you presume its marle speaking.
is it just me, or would you not call their "innate elements" magic?
but anyway, i'd like to go with the idea that seeing as spekkio taught them magic for their quest to destroy lavos, after they destroyed it they forget/unlearnt this magic, maybe spekkio disapeared when lavos was killed and took his magic along with him, do we know what power source this magic came from? the zealians used lavos, if they too used lavos this would mean they would loose their magic. theres loads of reasons really.
1: COMPLETELY MISSED MY POINT. We know people say things, because, they say them.
2: Wrong wrong wrong. Speikko mearly unlocked their Magic abilities, he didn't give them anything. Zeal's magic was Lavos magic, and different from Crono's (as per the people in Zeal saying it). And Elements are things that the Dragonians manufactured. That are not magic.
And about that quote: Voice: I love you so much... That is why I sometimes desire to smash you to bits!!!
Why do you exclude the second part of it? If Miguel is Crono, and hes talking to Marle, then why does he want to smash her to bits? Plus, the line is in the middle of Miguel telling them to get out.
So, according to you Ozzie, Slash and Flea in CC are imposters because they don't use magic as the Mystic Warriors did in CT?
Actually, some people do theorize that. Which may not be relevent if the Bend of Time is like a Q Continuum, making magic impossible as long as Serge and co. are there.
ditto.
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The Dragon God is quiet on the screen, and he has no dialogue box...
Besides, I can crush your theory easily by saying this: FATE has a reason to say this, while Marle neither loves Serge nor does she wish to crush him to bits. In the Dead Sea, the kids are just teasing you, as if to make you more aware. Besides, that wasn't in Marle's side of the screen, it was on the CENTER of the screen.
okay when i did it, it was clearly on the left of the screen, and what are you talking about serge for? :? . what do you mean the kids are teasing you? explain further please.
and with the dragon god i have no idea what your talking about, but if it shows no dialogue box, theres got to be a reason for it, my assumption is that the dragon god will be using some form of, dam whats the word, erm telekenetic speaking thing (bah someone give me the word!).
"Speikko mearly unlocked their Magic abilities"
evidence? and define what you mean by unlock.
where do assume that crono and co got the power to use this magic? surely there must be some source.
"If Miguel is Crono, and hes talking to Marle, then why does he want to smash her to bits? Plus, the line is in the middle of Miguel telling them to get out."
erm, what in gods name are you talking about? miguel doesnt say that stuff, ugh.
"COMPLETELY MISSED MY POINT. We know people say things, because, they say them"
again no idea what your talking about or where that came from.
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Hmm... You said it was in Marle's direction. And if it was Marle, she could only speak to Serge.
And as for the kids teasing you... The ghosts of the big three (Crono, Marle and Lucca ^^) in fact knew Serge was the one person with the power to use the Chrono Cross, the one whom Schala had chosen. They were teasing Serge to:
A. Get him mad so he could beat Miguel.
B. Give him the information that he broke the world, now he has to fix it.
C. That if he won't fix this world, everything will turn to shit. The Dead Sea being an example for the term shit.
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Useally its a good idea to know what you have said, so you can debate people...
in the dead sea after you defeat the ghost of marle says to miguel
"i love(d) you so much"
It seems I mispoke, but so you think MARLE-GHOST said that?! Its obvious FATE said it. Why would Marle want to tear Miguel apart, if Miguel was Crono?
And proof that Spekkio unlocked it?
Long before you were born... there was a kingdom where magic flourished. Everyone there could use it! But in time, people began to abuse their powers. It got so bad that no one was allowed to use magic except wizards. But you have it... determination, I mean! Magic needs power of the heart. It needs inner strength.
Or do you expect me to believe Spekkio taught everyone at Zeal how to use Magic as well? There are also many topics here proving this point. Read around.
Also:
How do you know Kid says anything? How do you know Miguel says anything?
kid doesnt say anything, miguel says something because it shows his head when he speaks, the box is next to marle and in the same position it is when you presume its marle speaking.
And my line was in reference to:
okay, you didnt explain how you know it was FATE saying that, but i guess we will never know the real truth unless the makers say so.
Now is it obvious how you missed my point? In the game, we know people say things because the say things. We know marle didn't say it because she didn't.
And its very hard to debate with someone who doesn't know what were debating... Please don't say you don't know what I'm talking about yet another time...
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erm but the only evidence you have that it wasnt marle saying it is a guide saying it was fate, so yeh, wat the hell are u talking about? dude do u not understand what im saying at all? i think not.
"Why would Marle want to tear Miguel apart, if Miguel was Crono?"
for the sole reason she loved him so much, think about it, you obviously havent, or you just have no idea.
"Or do you expect me to believe Spekkio taught everyone at Zeal how to use Magic as well? There are also many topics here proving this point. Read around. "
we know spekkio didnt teach it seeing as he wasnt even around back then, at least you never see or hear of him, what poeple have assumed is that gaspar taught them, and spekkio is nu/dream spirit kinda thing of gaspar. and what the hell you just avoided the question.
"And if it was Marle, she could only speak to Serge."
erm, huh?
and yeh still not getting the point about the kids teasing serge, there telling the truth arent they? serge made it so all their efforts to change the world were nullified, so i think you should go into a bit more detail.
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When you love someone, you don't want to smash them to bits. From my experience, at least...
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argh you dont understand, ill give you one example:
marle loves crono loads, now lets go out and make up that crono decided to defend gaurdia and sent marle off somewhere hiding, personally i dont believe that in the slightest. now because marle loves him so much she would hate crono for doing that so much she mite wish to punish him.
basically, you love someone a lot, they do something that gets you very worried, and it makes so furios at them BECAUSE you love them so much.
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Marle wouldn't be able to Crush or Smash him to bits..... She uses a bow... not a hammer or a sword.. Besides the Kids having no weapons..
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wow that is completely not the point :wink:
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we know spekkio didnt teach it seeing as he wasnt even around back then, at least you never see or hear of him, what poeple have assumed is that gaspar taught them, and spekkio is nu/dream spirit kinda thing of gaspar. and what the hell you just avoided the question.
Who assumes that Gaspar taught Zeal how to use magic?? That makes no sense at all, for if anything it would be the Queen who taught Zeal magical useage.
[Young Woman]
The Queen has given us everything!
After the King died, she nurtured
magic, which has advanced the
kingdom.
Zzzz...
Spekkio is the Nu/Dream spirit of Gaspar? Again where do you get these ideas? I would love to see the explination on that one.
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like i said that was someone elses idea not mine, so i wouldnt have the evidence. but still your avoiding the question, if your having a go at me as to why they wouldnt forget their magic, give me evidence that says yes they keep their magic spekkio didnt teach them anything he unlocked innate power that resides in either those chosen people or every living human due to the effect of lavos changing their dna or just cos us humans kick ass. if you cant them just shut up.
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Its really hard to read your post. Grammar helps.
The quote I provided proves that Magic is in everyone, it just needs to be unlocked. Did Spekkio teach Magus magic? Other than his element, his is the same as Cronos. Magus' magic never went away, not even in Radical Dreamers.
You really have no evidence, or anything backing you, and so you end your arguement with "shut up". I'm not wasting my time on an immature person who think he can say any theory, and be immune from disagreement, dispite everyone countering him.
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So, according to you Ozzie, Slash and Flea in CC are imposters because they don't use magic as the Mystic Warriors did in CT?
Since Ozzie, Flea & Slash are simply New Game+ material in CC, they really aren't anything but an easter egg. What they are and what they use thus do not matter and have no relevence.
Also, kazmaka, I know damn well you can use the quote tags...why'd you stop (mid-post in some cases)? It's a lot easier to read posts w/quotes in them...when quote tags are used...
2: Wrong wrong wrong. Speikko mearly unlocked their Magic abilities, he didn't give them anything. Zeal's magic was Lavos magic, and different from Crono's (as per the people in Zeal saying it). And Elements are things that the Dragonians manufactured. That are not magic.
Firstly, I don't think Zeal's Magic is that different from Crono's. Perhaps they all use Shadow Magic...Or simply their Magic is at higher levels, but I don't see how either of them could be using different Magic, since both Magus and the others share Magic Techs and Zeal & Spekkio also share a Magic Tech.
Also, the CC Elements are just as magical, but slightly different. They aren't manufactured, but more refined or something, seeing how they come from the planet. I think the energies could even be compared in that Lavos drained the Planet's energy and thus Zeal used Lavos to use their own Magic (or to simply increase the power) and the Planet's energy was used to create the CC Elements.
And, about the ghosts...I doubt it was either of them saying that line (but I'm still not entirely sure if it was FATE or who said it at all)...Miguel says that they are just the ghosts of that dying timeline and that you shouldn't even pay attention to them.
we know spekkio didnt teach it seeing as he wasnt even around back then, at least you never see or hear of him, what poeple have assumed is that gaspar taught them, and spekkio is nu/dream spirit kinda thing of gaspar. and what the hell you just avoided the question.
Who assumes that Gaspar taught Zeal how to use magic?? That makes no sense at all, for if anything it would be the Queen who taught Zeal magical useage.
Check out my thread called "Who Taught Magic In Zeal (http://www.chronocompendium.com/Forums/viewtopic.php?t=387)" in the Magic forum...Let's not get side-tracked by something already in another thread, hmm?
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we know spekkio didnt teach it seeing as he wasnt even around back then, at least you never see or hear of him, what poeple have assumed is that gaspar taught them, and spekkio is nu/dream spirit kinda thing of gaspar. and what the hell you just avoided the question.
Who assumes that Gaspar taught Zeal how to use magic?? That makes no sense at all, for if anything it would be the Queen who taught Zeal magical useage.
Check out my thread called "Who Taught Magic In Zeal (http://www.chronocompendium.com/Forums/viewtopic.php?t=387)" in the Magic forum...Let's not get side-tracked by something already in another thread, hmm?
Well if I had a thread to advertise, I would have posted it too :-p
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I read this whole thread (which took forever and is killing my eyes) and I have one huge question that popped up with all this magic talk.
If Crono and everyone has magic separate from the Zealians (Lavos magic) then they can keep it after they defeat Lavos since its "Planet Magic". However, if magic is truly infinite and never goes away, then how come Ayla cannot learn magic at all. I don't know the exact quote but it won't matter since 100% of you will know where it is in CT. But Spekkio tells the group that Ayla was born before magic existed. Wouldn't this imply that ALL MAGIC came directly from Lavos and not the planet? Because there was no magic in the timeline until 12,000 bc. So Crono and co. would lose the ability to use magic once Lavos was defeated, right?
I'm just throwing this out there, don't be as harsh to me as you were with kazmaka, who by the way is ridiculous.
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In CC, the Dragonians say that Humans only started to evolve from apes when the found the Frozen Flame, some year between Ayla's time and Zeal, I forget the year. But this brings up a question: What is the difference between Ayla and people afterwards? Magic. The Frozen Flame must have influenced Human Evolution, allowing them to evolve magical ablities.
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The quote I provided proves that Magic is in everyone, it just needs to be unlocked. Did Spekkio teach Magus magic? Other than his element, his is the same as Cronos. Magus' magic never went away, not even in Radical Dreamers.
i may not have a quote but the earthbound people did not have magic therefore, no everybody did not have mgaic waiting to be unlocked. as youve said humans only got magic through lavos, through lavos altering their dna, we could assume the earthbound humans lacked this dna.
You really have no evidence, or anything backing you, and so you end your arguement with "shut up". I'm not wasting my time on an immature person who think he can say any theory, and be immune from disagreement, dispite everyone countering him.
you still havent made a point that completely says my argument is definetly wrong, until you do, your argument is just as pointless as mine. i can accept that my theory may not be correct, but can you prove it?
Firstly, I don't think Zeal's Magic is that different from Crono's. Perhaps they all use Shadow Magic...Or simply their Magic is at higher levels, but I don't see how either of them could be using different Magic, since both Magus and the others share Magic Techs and Zeal & Spekkio also share a Magic Tech.
i would agree with this, in CT i wouldnt there are diferent types of magic, diferent elements yes, which could posibly be what the zealians are talking about, or diferent levels it, the zealians may have had it much more refined, or diferent parts of it, for example marle is water and yet gets ice, ice 2, cure, cure 2, life 2
frog is also water, but he gets water, water 2, cure 2, heal
so the zealians could have very diferent magic abilities all stemming from the same roots as crono's.
Also, kazmaka, I know damn well you can use the quote tags...why'd you stop (mid-post in some cases)? It's a lot easier to read posts w/quotes in them...when quote tags are used...
actaully i only just really realised the ease of doing that.
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i may not have a quote but the earthbound people did not have magic therefore, no everybody did not have mgaic waiting to be unlocked. as youve said humans only got magic through lavos, through lavos altering their dna, we could assume the earthbound humans lacked this dna.
Whats your point? They probably had not evolved the ablity to use magic. They had been thrown out of Magic-using society, so unless in extreme circumstances, they would be unable acquire the magic using trait via reproduction. I don't see how this is evidence agianst magic being something that people have.
you still havent made a point that completely says my argument is definetly wrong, until you do, your argument is just as pointless as mine. i can accept that my theory may not be correct, but can you prove it?
I see no reason to disprove a negative. You say Crono is Miguel (or have you forgotten this?). You are the one making the theory. You back it up with evidence. Thats how it works. My theory? Miguel is Miguel, and Crono is Crono. Disprove that with facts.
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i did back it up with evidence.
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i did back it up with evidence.
Evidence? Your evidence was "Crono would be White Element in CC", "Leena sounds like Leene", and "Marle wants to smash Crono to bits."
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okay then, im really not bothered about what you say, i say crono could be miguel, you say he cant, whatever, you havent changed my view, i havent changed yours, not bothered.
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I really don't think Crono = Miguel. I've heard both sides of the argument, and this is why I believe Crono =! Miguel.
First off, look at it from the game production point. Let's say that in the story production, they put in that they are the same person. Now obviously, you're going to have to put in a ton of clues, and USUALLY something that pretty much spells the whole thing out for you.
In my opinion, CC doesn't have any of this. There is no dialogue from Miguel that even does so much as suggest that he was ever a fighter, came from the mainland, anything. It seems to me that any theories we have about him are based on assumptions we're making on other assumptions. For example, we're assuming Crono is alive, not dead. We're assuming he went into hiding, and is not in prison. From there, we're assuming he travelled to El Nido, assuming he took an alternate identity, etc etc. There is no actual PHYSICAL evidence in the game that any of this hapenned, so we're basically drawing conclusions based on "false" conclusions.
Obviously, I have no problem with people thinking that theory, I jsut personally don't agree with it, for the above reasons.
Also, Kazmaka, isn't most of your "evidence" from just reading around on the boards? Because you still haven't played Chrono Cross, and no matter how much reading you do, you'll never be able to really understand what's going on until you play the game and put it together.
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First off, look at it from the game production point. Let's say that in the story production, they put in that they are the same person. Now obviously, you're going to have to put in a ton of clues, and USUALLY something that pretty much spells the whole thing out for you.
okay they usually do this, but they may have wanted you to use imagination? put in some very sly clues and expect you to figure out the rest. they never tell you who or what the entity is but most of you wont hesitate to say its the planet.
There is no actual PHYSICAL evidence in the game that any of this hapenned, so we're basically drawing conclusions based on "false" conclusions.
again going with the enity theory.
Obviously, I have no problem with people thinking that theory, I jsut personally don't agree with it, for the above reasons.
[/qoute]
thankyou, thats the kind of attitude i would expect people to have.
Also, Kazmaka, isn't most of your "evidence" from just reading around on the boards? Because you still haven't played Chrono Cross, and no matter how much reading you do, you'll never be able to really understand what's going on until you play the game and put it together.
most of my evidence and generally the reason i agree with this theory was based on my playing chrono cross, so no.
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First off, look at it from the game production point. Let's say that in the story production, they put in that they are the same person. Now obviously, you're going to have to put in a ton of clues, and USUALLY something that pretty much spells the whole thing out for you.
okay they usually do this, but they may have wanted you to use imagination? put in some very sly clues and expect you to figure out the rest. they never tell you who or what the entity is but most of you wont hesitate to say its the planet.
There is no actual PHYSICAL evidence in the game that any of this hapenned, so we're basically drawing conclusions based on "false" conclusions.
again going with the enity theory.
Obviously, I have no problem with people thinking that theory, I jsut personally don't agree with it, for the above reasons.
thankyou, thats the kind of attitude i would expect people to have.
Also, Kazmaka, isn't most of your "evidence" from just reading around on the boards? Because you still haven't played Chrono Cross, and no matter how much reading you do, you'll never be able to really understand what's going on until you play the game and put it together.
most of my evidence and generally the reason i agree with this theory was based on my playing chrono cross, so no.
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okay they usually do this, but they may have wanted you to use imagination? put in some very sly clues and expect you to figure out the rest. they never tell you who or what the entity is but most of you wont hesitate to say its the planet.
The entity being the planet does have actual physical evidence, via the Japanese version. But its identity really doesn't matter.
And Crono actually being in this game would have been a REALLY big part of the story, and yet they never even implied it. Its fine if you want to use you imagination, but for big story elements, they spell it out for you.[/quote]
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Obviously, I have no problem with people thinking that theory, I jsut personally don't agree with it, for the above reasons.
thankyou, thats the kind of attitude i would expect people to have.
kazmaka, just because people disagree w/your theories and want more evidence to try and understand your POV, this doesn't mean they do not agree w/what DewiyisOverrated said here.
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Its really hard to read your post. Grammar helps.
Magus' magic never went away, not even in Radical Dreamers.
There is no real proof. One of the first spells her uses is "inferno" which is an element... He's probably tapped into both. Elements and Magic. But elements in Radical Dreams are called Magic anyway Oo.
And don't say "Shut Up" in a debate topic. It disproves all debating skills and isn't a good way to go about it.
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In the RD universe, I'm pretty sure they are refered to as Magic Spells, are they not?
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He also uses Dark Mist, doesn't he? And yeah, everyone can use Elements...And Elements ARE Magical...they just aren't the same sort of Magical as the CT 4-Way Magic...:?
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I would just like to put the final nail in the coffin of the arguement that Spekkio gives Crono and Co magic. After you do his little walk around the room stunt, and the characters gain the ability to use magic, it says:
Crono learns to use magic!
And so on for the other character. Learns. They had the ability, they just needed to be able to use it.
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okay they usually do this, but they may have wanted you to use imagination? put in some very sly clues and expect you to figure out the rest. they never tell you who or what the entity is but most of you wont hesitate to say its the planet.
The entity being the planet does have actual physical evidence, via the Japanese version. But its identity really doesn't matter.
And Crono actually being in this game would have been a REALLY big part of the story, and yet they never even implied it. Its fine if you want to use you imagination, but for big story elements, they spell it out for you.
[/quote]
the identity the entity is pretty important and a lot of other theories youve made are based on it, crono being in the game isnt a big part of it, the only relevance CT has to CC is the fact that crono killed lavos, apart from that there is no reason why crono should be mentioned very much in the game.
kazmaka, just because people disagree w/your theories and want more evidence to try and understand your POV, this doesn't mean they do not agree w/what DewiyisOverrated said here.
are you sure you know what i meant here? everyone here except dewiy has said your idea has no chance in hell of being valid, which is not an attitude i would expect from you when probably at least half of your theories dont have much physical evidence.
And don't say "Shut Up" in a debate topic. It disproves all debating skills and isn't a good way to go about it.
everything he was saying was meaningless, i would hardly of called it debating.
And so on for the other character. Learns. They had the ability, they just needed to be able to use it.
reading thta quote i would say it is even more likely spekkio taught them magic in some way, they learnt it from him, it doesnt say spekkio unlocked there potential to use magic, thanks for the quote it makes me more confident in my opinion.
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I was talking about people saying "shut Up" to you...
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o, well thx ^^, and sorry ^^.
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are you sure you know what i meant here? everyone here except dewiy has said your idea has no chance in hell of being valid, which is not an attitude i would expect from you when probably at least half of your theories dont have much physical evidence.
I dunno 'bout that...I see it more as people are just saying, "What are you talking about? How do you think that's possible?"...And that last statement makes it kind of circular...but w/e...What theories do you speak? Plausibility also factors in w/in game evidence. Ockham's Razor 'n' all...
I think the more important part of that quote is "to use" not "learns". As in he learns to use it. He doesn't learn it itself right there from Spekkio, only, he learns how to use it. i.e. he can thusly, after learning how to use it, learn Magic itself, which he does, on his travels through battling. Spekkio himself/itself does not directly teach Crono any Magic.
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well he does on the spot learn lightning/ice/water/fire, but still spekkio teaches him how to use magic, he doesnt unlock crono's potential to use it, it is because spekkio taught them how to use magic that they are able to refine it and learn stronger spells.
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well he does on the spot learn lightning/ice/water/fire, but still spekkio teaches him how to use magic, he doesnt unlock crono's potential to use it, it is because spekkio taught them how to use magic that they are able to refine it and learn stronger spells.
Do we have a flip flop? I though Spekkio gave them their magic. Now they had it all along, just needed it taught to them?
And you 'theory' have no chance in hell. You have the right to make them, just when people have impossible theories, I point them out.
And Zaper, I'd just like to be the one to point out that kazmaka was the one with the "or shut up" line.
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not entirely sure of the meaning of that post, but how is it impossible? i dont understand that. and you saying that my theory is impossible is basically telling me to shut up about it, cos you dont give a dam, cos its "impossible".
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And Zaper, I'd just like to be the one to point out that kazmaka was the one with the "or shut up" line.
Oo, Sorry too then. It's hard to understand who's quote is who's when the Quote button is stuffing up for people Oo
Anyway, The point is to not use any form of put downs in a debate. Everyones opinion should be heard, and the debated.
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not entirely sure of the meaning of that post, but how is it impossible? i dont understand that. and you saying that my theory is impossible is basically telling me to shut up about it, cos you dont give a dam, cos its "impossible".
Because you are making evidence to suit the theory, not making the theory to suit the evidence.
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Saying that something is impossible is not some kind of negative put-down. Either way, you shouldn't be so emotional about it...We're just theorizing for god's sake...Damn, when will they hurry up w/Crimson Echoes so I'm not the only one here pointing out this obvoius crap?
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not entirely sure of the meaning of that post, but how is it impossible? i dont understand that. and you saying that my theory is impossible is basically telling me to shut up about it, cos you dont give a dam, cos its "impossible".
Because you are making evidence to suit the theory, not making the theory to suit the evidence.
the only way i came up with the theory was because of the evidence i saw, wat are you on about?
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Really? I never ONCE thought that Miguel was Crono. But I got a good way to put your "theory" to the test.
You say that it was Marle-Ghost who said "I love you so much..." to Miguel, because Marle and Crono married, and therefore loved each other. For the moment, lets forget that it was actually FATE who said that, and that it was followed by "Thats why I want to smash to you into bits!" This depends on the idea that Marle is in fact dead. And therefore, the Marle-Ghost is in fact, Marle's Ghost (which many will argue over). But if Miguel is Crono, then who is that Crono-Ghost? Why does Marle-Ghost have to be Marle, if Crono-Ghost doesn't have to be Crono? Crono can't be alive as Miguel, and dead as Crono-Ghost at the same time.
The game says Miguel is Miguel, and never states otherwise, or implies otherwise, so from this FACT, we can make the "theory" that Miguel is actually... Miguel!.
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corect me if im wrong but isnt the dead sea from the future, so the children are dead... in the future.
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Firstly, Miguel hadn't died yet, so how could the Crono-ghost be there? Things in time don't occur until they actually happen.
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what are you talking about, the dead sea is from the future, crono is dead in the future, he cant live to 1000 years old.
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No, Crono is alive, hes Miguel standing right there. He hadn't died yet. :)
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no he hadnt died in 1000 something AD, but you would expect him to be dead around 2300AD, or whenver the dead sea is based.
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I think sentenal and kazmaka aren't on the same page.
First off, I think sentenal is saying that Crono can't be dead, because he's going with the Crono=Miguel thing.
Second, aside from that, kazmaka might be slightly confused. Could Crono live more than 1,000 years all the way to 2,300 A.D.? No, but that's not really how the Dead Sea works. You see, Chronopolis was kind of sent back in time during the Time Crash. Dead Sea is the area that Chronopolis is, in a timeline where Lavos wasn't defeated, the ruined future. So that area was essnetially sent back in time. (Some people, including myself, believe that you're essentially stepping into the future).
So, Crono living 1,300 years isn't relevant, as all you would have to do is step into the area. Keep in mind, Miguel is also from the 1,000 A.D. era, and he wouldn'y have lived that long either.
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no he hadnt died in 1000 something AD, but you would expect him to be dead around 2300AD, or whenver the dead sea is based.
You missing the point. Miguel had not died. Yet you still see the Crono-ghost. Crono cannot have a ghost until he dies, and he has not died, since hes Miguel.
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There's a simple way to fix this. After Lynx leaves, Miguel says: "My dear Leena... May you live in an happier tommorow." Crono has nothing to do with Leena. And if you connect the facts that Marge said that Wazuki and Leena's father went to Chronopolis, you see Miguel with Wazuki in Chronopolis, and he says the Leena bit after death, it's safe to say Miguel is just Leena's father, Wazuki's best friend, and has nothing to with the hero of time, Crono.
Besides, he has the same hair color as Leena, which is light brown. Not red.
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Crono and Miguel have nothing in common anyway. It's ridiculous that this debate got that far. What would a king (if you saw the ending to the PSX version of CT) be doing on some foreign island having children with another woman?
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Crono and Miguel have nothing in common anyway. It's ridiculous that this debate got that far. What would a king (if you saw the ending to the PSX version of CT) be doing on some foreign island having children with another woman?
Who knows, maybe he left his hot, powerful hero of time wife and went to get some hot El-Nido action? {: I mean, being a King is NOTHING when compared to being a fishermen.
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Crono and Miguel have nothing in common anyway. It's ridiculous that this debate got that far. What would a king (if you saw the ending to the PSX version of CT) be doing on some foreign island having children with another woman?
Anyone who believes this theory says that they are in hiding, probably due to the military actions of Porre. I don't buy it, personally. Some people go as far to say that Marle is actually Leena, which is... really radical. Once again, I don't buy it.
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Either dead, either striking from the shadows. That's really the only logical explanation, because it would be stated if Guardia is in open turmoil.
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I wish more people like you posted on this thread. That other guy was annoying me.
And question: The people of Arni are native to the Humans of Chronopolis, or decendants of Porrean settlers?
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I've always understood it as the "descendants" of Chronopolis, as most of the people of El Nido are.
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People of Termina are the decendants of Porrean settlement. Arni is the decendants of Chronopolis. Though, there would be some decendants of Chronopolis mixed with the Porreans at Termina. A few soldiers probably want some fun with the local women xD
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no he hadnt died in 1000 something AD, but you would expect him to be dead around 2300AD, or whenver the dead sea is based.
You missing the point. Miguel had not died. Yet you still see the Crono-ghost. Crono cannot have a ghost until he dies, and he has not died, since hes Miguel.
Miguel is FROZEN in time in the Dead Sea. There is no future version of him to be Crono's ghost.
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Crono and Miguel have nothing in common anyway. It's ridiculous that this debate got that far. What would a king (if you saw the ending to the PSX version of CT) be doing on some foreign island having children with another woman?
okay to much to quote, since when was i saying crono was having children with another woman?
So, Crono living 1,300 years isn't relevant, as all you would have to do is step into the area. Keep in mind, Miguel is also from the 1,000 A.D. era, and he wouldn'y have lived that long either.
i think you missed the point, unless your assuming the ghost of crono went into the dead sea from 1000AD, which im not, im saying the ghost of crono is from the 2300AD era where he was dead.
There's a simple way to fix this. After Lynx leaves, Miguel says: "My dear Leena... May you live in an happier tommorow." Crono has nothing to do with Leena. And if you connect the facts that Marge said that Wazuki and Leena's father went to Chronopolis, you see Miguel with Wazuki in Chronopolis, and he says the Leena bit after death, it's safe to say Miguel is just Leena's father, Wazuki's best friend, and has nothing to with the hero of time, Crono.
im intrigued how you used that evidence to make that assumption.
Who knows, maybe he left his hot, powerful hero of time wife and went to get some hot El-Nido action? {: I mean, being a King is NOTHING when compared to being a fishermen.
i never assumed he left marle, and im sure marle would of rather been a fisherman than a queen, she says it in trigger.
Anyone who believes this theory says that they are in hiding, probably due to the military actions of Porre. I don't buy it, personally. Some people go as far to say that Marle is actually Leena, which is... really radical. Once again, I don't buy it.
no way would i buy leena being marle, there no where near the right age, leena is about 17, which is about what marle was in trigger.
and quite frankly i dont buy that crono and marle would have died the porre invasion, maybe they got in there at first, but once it became apparant they may loose and marle could be in danger theres no chance in hell he would stay there and risk marle dying.
Miguel is FROZEN in time in the Dead Sea. There is no future version of him to be Crono's ghost.
miguel gets killed in the dead sea, and im pretty sure it had to happen because of FATE.
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miguel gets killed in the dead sea, and im pretty sure it had to happen because of FATE.
Miguel doesn't die until Serge & Co. kill him there though...
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yeah... but he dies, so he would be dead in the future where the dead sea came from but got pulled back from.
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[Marge]
That night, your father, Wazuki,
and his friend Miguel set out
to sea, despite a storm...
It was an emergency...
There. Marge says Wazuki and his friend Miguel set out to Chronopolis. In the flashback you see Wazuki and Miguel quiet clearly in the sea.
And your father's friend, Miguel...
That was Leena's father.
There's the evidence Miguel is Leena's father.
And finally...
Miguel:
My dear Leena...
May you live in a
happier tomorrow!
Now, if you're still wandering how I came to the conclusion you need to have your head examined. Crono has nothing to do with Leena. Besides, Miguel neither looks, talks or uses the same weapon as Crono. He uses no magic, except for Elements and his "Holy Dragon Sword" tech, which is Dragonoian in origin, obviously, therefore it can't be magic. Again I say, the mere prospect that Miguel is Crono is neither logical nor possible. The game makes no statment that he is Miguel. Besides, answer that:
WHY THE HELL WOULD MARLE WANT TO CRUSH CRONO TO BITS?!
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[Marge]
That night, your father, Wazuki,
and his friend Miguel set out
to sea, despite a storm...
It was an emergency...
There. Marge says Wazuki and his friend Miguel set out to Chronopolis. In the flashback you see Wazuki and Miguel quiet clearly in the sea.
And your father's friend, Miguel...
That was Leena's father.
There's the evidence Miguel is Leena's father.
And finally...
Miguel:
My dear Leena...
May you live in a
happier tomorrow!
Now, if you're still wandering how I came to the conclusion you need to have your head examined. Crono has nothing to do with Leena. Besides, Miguel neither looks, talks or uses the same weapon as Crono. He uses no magic, except for Elements and his "Holy Dragon Sword" tech, which is Dragonoian in origin, obviously, therefore it can't be magic. Again I say, the mere prospect that Miguel is Crono is neither logical nor possible. The game makes no statment that he is Miguel. Besides, answer that:
WHY THE HELL WOULD MARLE WANT TO CRUSH CRONO TO BITS?!
i know leena is miguels daughter, how do you know crono has nothing to do with leena?
1) miguel doesnt look like crono - why not? for starters find a picture of crono in the exact same style as CC, then add 10 years or so.
2) miguel doesnt talk like crono - since when did crono ever say anything?
3) or uses the same weapon - what makes you think he would bring his swords on this trip with wazuki, i would hardly think they expected to get into a fight out there.
4) he doesnt use magic - how do we know crono kept his magic?
5) why would marle say that - i already answered that
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[Marge]
That night, your father, Wazuki,
and his friend Miguel set out
to sea, despite a storm...
It was an emergency...
There. Marge says Wazuki and his friend Miguel set out to Chronopolis. In the flashback you see Wazuki and Miguel quiet clearly in the sea.
And your father's friend, Miguel...
That was Leena's father.
There's the evidence Miguel is Leena's father.
And finally...
Miguel:
My dear Leena...
May you live in a
happier tomorrow!
Now, if you're still wandering how I came to the conclusion you need to have your head examined. Crono has nothing to do with Leena. Besides, Miguel neither looks, talks or uses the same weapon as Crono. He uses no magic, except for Elements and his "Holy Dragon Sword" tech, which is Dragonoian in origin, obviously, therefore it can't be magic. Again I say, the mere prospect that Miguel is Crono is neither logical nor possible. The game makes no statment that he is Miguel. Besides, answer that:
WHY THE HELL WOULD MARLE WANT TO CRUSH CRONO TO BITS?!
i know leena is miguels daughter, how do you know crono has nothing to do with leena?
1) miguel doesnt look like crono - why not? for starters find a picture of crono in the exact same style as CC, then add 10 years or so.
2) miguel doesnt talk like crono - since when did crono ever say anything?
3) or uses the same weapon - what makes you think he would bring his swords on this trip with wazuki, i would hardly think they expected to get into a fight out there.
4) he doesnt use magic - how do we know crono kept his magic?
5) why would marle say that - i already answered that
~Sigh~ I've never met someone more stubborn and stuck up in my life.
Everyone who thinks this theory of kamakaza is a crackpot theory say Aye.
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aye and a half...but that's beside the point...
1) miguel doesnt look like crono - why not? for starters find a picture of crono in the exact same style as CC, then add 10 years or so.
It would be 20 years...so Crono would be over 30...
2) miguel doesnt talk like crono - since when did crono ever say anything?
Uhm, exactly?
3) or uses the same weapon - what makes you think he would bring his swords on this trip with wazuki, i would hardly think they expected to get into a fight out there.
4) he doesnt use magic - how do we know crono kept his magic?
5) why would marle say that - i already answered that
So, basically, with all the evidence given...Miguel is Miguel...but according to kazmaka he could be nearly anybody...How do you KNOW it's not Magus? He could have died his hair...lost his magic...got there somehow...did some stuff...become a power ranger...traveled back in time...faught a dinosaur...revealed Superman's secret identity...etc etc...
The simplest answer is often the right one. Why overcomplicate things by trying to make it Crono when there's no substantial evidence supporting such an absurd claim? What even hints that Miguel might be Crono? His Elemental Innate? What? Nothing, that's what.
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suit ureself, i still think he could be.
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Aye times 100. He is actually funny, as long as you don't take him serious.
1) miguel doesnt look like crono - why not? for starters find a picture of crono in the exact same style as CC, then add 10 years or so.
2) miguel doesnt talk like crono - since when did crono ever say anything?
3) or uses the same weapon - what makes you think he would bring his swords on this trip with wazuki, i would hardly think they expected to get into a fight out there.
4) he doesnt use magic - how do we know crono kept his magic?
5) why would marle say that - i already answered that
1.) Okay, I gots a theory! Goku looks sorta like Crono! So Crono died his hair black, and traveled to another world, and renamed himself Goku, and this is true because THEY LOOK ALIKE, IT COULND'T POSSIBLY BE BECAUSE MANY AKIRA CHARACTERS LOOK ALIKE.
2.) Exactly, Crono hardly ever said anything, yet Miguel said alot.
3.) Why wouldn't he? Its not like it would be a big load. A simple Katana is a small weapon.
4.) Still going on with people magically getting stripped of their magical power, for no reason at all, even after we have proved you cannot have your magic taken away. While it is possible that he could have forgotten how to use some of it, but forget ALL of it?
5.) Actually, when you answered it, you said that when people love each other, they want to smash each other to bits.
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erm... yeh goku is crono... okay.
crono never says anything, because the makers dont make him say anything, to make crono your character, with no personality except that you give him, miguel does say stuff because he is not your main character, it would look really stupid having your characters talking to miguel and yet him saying nothing.
when did you prove you cant loose your magic?
if you dont understand what i said, fine.
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I proved that Magic isn't something given, its something learned, its something that everyone-post Zeal has evolved.
Its like talking to a rock...
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i never said magic wasnt given, you said spekkio unlocked their magic, and proved that he taught them magic, which is what i already thought.
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Well, if it's something genetic, it won't go away. Say, when you're touching something. If you stop touching it, would you lose the ability to touch altogether? No. Same for magic. The power is in their genes, therefore it can't go away. Perhaps it would weaken by them not using it. Perhaps they would get tired real easy. But it woulden't go away. If Miguel was Crono, he could not only use magic, but use all his other, non-magical techs. The only tech he uses is Holy Dragon Sword, an attack Crono never has and could probably never get, being as he has little to no access to Dragonian technology. FATE, on the other hand, has loads of access to it. She would just give Miguel the power needed and pass into him the knowledge of using the tech.
Oh, and it did sound like you mean loving someone means you want to crush him to bits. I'm very happy to say, I have a gf and I very much love her. And I've never wanted to crush her to bits. FATE, on the other hand, is FORCED into loving the humans, because she's programmed to love them. But she's just so jealous of them being alive she wants to crush them to bits sometime.
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still going with your touching theory, your touch something, then your hand gets chopped off, you cant touch it anymore cos the thing you used to touch it is gone.
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I'm...not quite sure how that first analogy of Legend of the Past works...and I definately don't know how kazmaka's works...
But either way...All Lavos & Spekkio did was unlock their latent Magic power. i.e. gave them the ability to learn-on their own-varying Magical abilities. There is nothing in the game saying that Crono & Co. would lose said Magical abilities for any reason. If you think they would, fine, but you're pulling at strings that aren't there and basically just making stuff up...
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i got that idea from the zealians loosing magic which you still disagree with i got always get the image that after you defeat lavos the enlightened ones cant use magic anymore, they just loose it.
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still going with your touching theory, your touch something, then your hand gets chopped off, you cant touch it anymore cos the thing you used to touch it is gone.
Ah, but who is to say your hand get chopped off? It's like your saying Crono lost the gene, which is something that one person cannot possibly do. To do that, he would need to go to every one of of his tens of billions of cells and remove the gene, all the while remaining alive. That can't be done even by someone else. And it's unreal, No one could live long enough to remove a single gene in about 50 to 60 billion cells. (Or 500 billion to 600 nillion cells... or 500 thousand to 600 thousand Billion cells... One of the computers in Chronopolis has the correct figures. Either way it's impossible)
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Please, let's stop w/the weird analogy, please, Legend...?
And kazmaka, does it say that the Zealians lose their Magic?
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well i dont really see us getting anywhere here because we have diferent views on magic, so alas, what next?
translanka, i got the picture that yes it did, you got the picture no it didnt, it definetly does not say they kept their magic, so its up for personal opinion.
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- No Zealian loss of Magic (until possibly at a later date through offspring) -
1. it never says anywhere in the game that Magic is lost when not in contact w/that which originally unlocked said Magic
2. a. when something is unlocked it remains unlocked until locked again
2. b. nothing in the game says that there is a way to lock the ability to learn Magic (not to mention keep Magic)
- Zealian's immediate loss of Magic -
Opinion based on?
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The Zealian magic may of been lost because they were disconnected from Lavos, yes. But where does it say the Zealians really lost their magic? They're only trapped on the earth again, nothing about loss of magic. Because both Zealians and Earthbounds, are, well, earthbound, those Zealians that survived will help the reamiaing humans with magic, and then their children would not have their magic unlocked. Translanka has a point, though: Magic remains unlocked until it's locked again, and being as there's no one on the planet left with sufficient magic to actually seal someone else's magic, there you go. Besides, Dalton kept his magic.
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A Zealian man said "how can I survive without magic?" And an Earthbound person said "We have eachother, we'll survive" etc. That's implying that their magic was lost, ceased to exist. But it clashed with game evidance from other points, especially from RD.
RD states that the MM unlocked the potention to do magic when anyone came in contact with it. This would prove that certain Zealians born could have magic. Any Zealian born with no magic ability at first would be classified as an Earthbound one, possibly meaning that their parent didn't get close enough to the MM to unlock all the potention that might pass on in the reproductiveness.
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As much as I hate DBZ (Trust me, I do ><"), the only example I can think of is like the Super Sayian gene passes down only if the parent became Super Sayian, and the child can turn to a Super Sayian very easily.
I guess you're right, though. Those who lived in the palace (I.E, Dalton, Janus, Schala, Queen Zeal, etc) kept their magic, while everyone else (Like from Kajar and Enhasa) didn't. Maybe those who coulden't pass down their magical genes lost magic, too.
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A Zealian man said "how can I survive without magic?" And an Earthbound person said "We have eachother, we'll survive" etc.
that among other things said is where i got that idea from.
the reason dalton kept his magic at least for as long as we saw it i would say is because, the mammon machine radiated the energy from lavos, which is why everyone could use magic, it radiated from the mammon machine through zeal, dalton was always close to it so he would of absorbed a lot, to say, the other people were not, so with the energy from lavos cut off, their magic would wither quickly, and they would loose their use of it.
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Technically that guy didn't say he lost HIS magic, just that he lost magic. He could have been refering to the Zealian magic in general, like the floating islands and eveything else that was going on up there.
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well theres my point again (or someones elses that i just like re-inforcing) this matter is up to personal opinion, based upon how you take the evidence, and your belief about magic.
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I'm gonna have to go with the theory that the Zealians in the palace had more magic, so they had more to keep, or something. The Zealians in the other towns lost their magic because of their distance from the Mammon Machine. Alot of NPC's compare how Zealian magic is far different from Crono's magic, and how they also say elemental magic is forbidden. Perhaps Lavos' magic requires a connection to the source because it's not natural?
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I'm gonna have to go with the theory that the Zealians in the palace had more magic, so they had more to keep, or something. The Zealians in the other towns lost their magic because of their distance from the Mammon Machine. Alot of NPC's compare how Zealian magic is far different from Crono's magic, and how they also say elemental magic is forbidden. Perhaps Lavos' magic requires a connection to the source because it's not natural?
The thing is, Lavos' magic is not magic, per say. It's his energy. People just manipulate things with it. And just like any energy, it flows. Once there is no more source from which energy is turned, people will lose control over it. However, most people would have it stored. Seriously, escaping a falling island in the sky would require some effort. Maybe they used their powers to escape?
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RD says that their magic was unlocked thanks to the MM, and it would be permanant when unlocked, till death.
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RD says that their magic was unlocked thanks to the MM, and it would be permanant when unlocked, till death.
Can you give me a quote? (Not that I don't believe you, it's just intresting)
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I'm gonna have to go with the theory that the Zealians in the palace had more magic, so they had more to keep, or something. The Zealians in the other towns lost their magic because of their distance from the Mammon Machine. Alot of NPC's compare how Zealian magic is far different from Crono's magic, and how they also say elemental magic is forbidden. Perhaps Lavos' magic requires a connection to the source because it's not natural?
I agree. Crono and co had Elemental Magic. Zealian's eventually forsoke Elemental Magic, and started using "Lavos" Magic, with its power source being the Mammon Machine. And after the fall, their Lavos magic was gone. They all still had the potiental to use magic, they just didn't have the aquired ability anymore.
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They all still had the ablility to use magic, they just didn't have the ability anymore.
I think you meant: They all still had the potential to use magic, they just didn't have the ability anymore.
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They all still had the ablility to use magic, they just didn't have the ability anymore.
I think you meant: They all still had the potential to use magic, they just didn't have the ability anymore.
heh, I hate grammar. Fixed it.
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Actually, that NPC doesn't say that Magic is lost at all...He's just asking how he can survive w/o it...With the negative experiences Zealians now have w/Magic, they no longer wish to use it.
Also, all Magic, even Lavos-based Magic (or w/e) would still be considered Elemental because, like Spekkio says, everything is based on the balance of those four Elemental Magics.
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Yeah, And the it'd mean Dalton, Zeal and Schala would have elemental magic too if Zealians had a different type.
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Yeah, And the it'd mean Dalton, Zeal and Schala would have elemental magic too if Zealians had a different type.
Well, Dalton does shoot fire at your party...
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Also, all Magic, even Lavos-based Magic (or w/e) would still be considered Elemental because, like Spekkio says, everything is based on the balance of those four Elemental Magics.
Lavos is an alien. Who knows how things work where he's from?
Actually, that NPC doesn't say that Magic is lost at all...He's just asking how he can survive w/o it...
That pretty much implies they lost it.
Yeah, And the it'd mean Dalton, Zeal and Schala would have elemental magic too if Zealians had a different type
Or a more powerful form of Lavoid Magic. Whatever. Zeal is obvious uber-strong Lavoid Magic, Dalton I'm thinking uses the arcane crap that Magus uses. Maybe INVENTED it using Lavos magic so that his arts wouldn't be lost so easily. He was planning to backstab Zeal.
As for Schala, I don't know about you guys, but Schala and Janus always seemed off to me. Maybe their magic is directly from the Entity or something, chosen by fate to help bring down Zeal...or something? I dunno, I'm rambling now. But it always felt to me that Schala would be White Innate. WAIT. Wouldn't Schala be Red Innate if she has the same DNA as Kid? What makes Schala a Red Innate? Nothing in her personality and life implies it except for her being Arbiter, but that's pushing it. (BTW, wouldn't that make Kid an Arbiter if such were true? And wouldn't that mess up everything?)
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1. I'm pretty sure Kid is Red Innate because shes "hot headed", not to mention growing up with Lucca.
2. Schala was lost in the DBT, so the Flame had no contact with her. Or if not, then Schala passed down the power by letting Serge get near it, and when he did, he became tha arbiter. And then Kid was created.
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Umm, Schala wouldn't be innate anything in Trigger. There were no elements yet. Schala most likely could control ALL the elements, like Magus, or Zeal, or Dalton, or ect. The Zealian said that the groups magic was primitive in comparison to theirs, I think that has to do with the fact that they had planet magic AND that they could only focus on one element without dual and triple techs.
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Yea, because Elements bought at the store determine your genetics. She'd have to be innate Something in Trigger terms atleast. Lightning, Shadow, Fire, Water.
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Most likely Shadow since her magic is so not primative. She could control anything if she wanted, that's why shes a bright pupil.
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Just hit the books on this one. "Magic" is just a simple term for controlling the basic four forces of the universe; you have to have genetic potential. The Frozen Flame opened this up, and those with predominant ability created Zeal while the others stayed down. Even then, there were countless freeloaders and only a few true innates, like Dalton, Janus, Schala, royalty, Gurus, etc. Everyone else just leeched off the power source. They say it clearly that they stopped using elemental power in order to use Mammon energy. Magic, however, is still magic, no matter what the basic fuel for it.
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How is Shadow the most powerful? Isn't it part of the balance that Spekkio manages?
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I know. Shadow isn't more powerful. From what I gathered, Dark Matter isn't much more powerful then Luminaire. It's part of a balance, it's like saying that fire, water and lightning are all evil, and when combined they create darkness. Besides, if lightning is Heaven, how can anything with HEAVEN in it can make something DARK?
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People might think shadow is "the most powerful" only because it utilizes all of the other three elements. So, theoretically, you can use any spell anyone else can.
Kind of like what Senator Palpatine says in Episode III "A true jedi learns all aspects of the force". Something to that nature.[/u]
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People might think shadow is "the most powerful" only because it utilizes all of the other three elements
Says friggin who? No one in the game, that's for sure.
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People might think shadow is "the most powerful" only because it utilizes all of the other three elements
Says friggin who? No one in the game, that's for sure.
He's probably referring to the fact that Marle and Lucca have to combine their Water and Fire magics in order to produce a Shadow spell (Antipode), while Magus for instance can cast Shadow stuff by himself.
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How do you know Antipode is Shadow? Where does it say that?
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The general effect of it is Shadow. Try using it on undead enemies and such.
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Oh, well. So it's Fire and Water. But it has nothing to do with Thunder.
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That, and also the fact that Magus can use the rest of the elements individually.
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I'm not sure but I think even Delta Force and Delta Storm (Fire+Water+Lightning) are Shadow spells... Three characters have to combine their force to produce Shadow, that does show how powerful that element must be.
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I think it's more like Shadow+Lightning, which means Good+Evil. Which explains how powerful it is.
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According to the Mechanics Guide on GameFAQs it's Shadow only.
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Maybe it coverts the Lightning into Shadow? Obviously, Fire and Water are all that is needed to create Shadow.
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The way I see it, Magus is a sorceror, so of course he can use all types of magic. Shadow is of course his innate, is all.
The way I see it, the whole balance of Water, Fire, Lightning, and Shadow is symbolic. Fire and Water are opposites of a physical existence, and Lightning and Shadow can be interpretted as opposites of a spiritual existence (Heaven and Shadow.) And it continues the parallel, physical versus spiritual. This keeps folding out infinitely to all concepts of the universe. True Tao. Balance. But it's not so clearcut. You say Antipode, a Shadow spell, is made with Fire and Water? Ha. I present two reason. One, they're opposites, so they negate each other and create Shadow, Void, where Heaven would represent existence, or atleast the cause of it. Reason Two would be continuing the Tao analogy, as even opposites contain traces of their counterparts, as they can never be truly seperated. Nothing is fully good or evil. Right or Wrong. Black or White. The physical elements of Fire and Water cannot escape the spiritual Shadow.
Damn, my brain hurts.
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The way I see it, Magus is a sorceror, so of course he can use all types of magic. Shadow is of course his innate, is all.
That's what I said. ^_^
Damn, my brain hurts.
Have some tea. Or coffee. I, for one, am a man of teas... But each with his tastes.
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Heavenly magic doens't mean it has anything to do with Heaven and goodness. Either does Shadow have to do with evil. It is simply implied by us. Like Spekkio said, they are needed in balance. But from what we see in the game, and how Spekkio reacts to Magus and stuff, it is plausable that Shadow is created by the effects of the other 3. Oh and if you haven't noticed, When Fire and Water mix, they cause steam.. Which is wind... But the effect of it's magic makes it Shadow, since we can see the dark patterns in the spell. Luminair is a spell that can be equalled to Dark Matter, Lucca's area magma bomb and Frog's Frog Drop spell. They are the ultimate of their innate.
And also, since Zealians most likely had Shadow magic (which in our theory is comprised of the other magics) their power would also stretch using Lightning/Fire/Water.
And because Spekkio could only tap into one type of magic for each, Crono,Marle,Lucca and Frog only got one innate. And isn't it a coincidence that none of them are Shadow?
Also, in Kajar, opening the books, there is no Shadow book. But once you open the door, Oo look. There is a "Black Rock" used to create a Shadow triple tech.
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MISSSSSSSSSSSSED my point.
Heavenly magic doens't mean it has anything to do with Heaven and goodness.
Doesn't mean it doesn't. If the four elements in Trigger balance everything, Heaven and goodness SHOULD be equated with Heaven.
But from what we see in the game, and how Spekkio reacts to Magus and stuff, it is plausable that Shadow is created by the effects of the other 3.
Of course! It must be his innate! Can't have anything to do with his being the most powerful wizard in the world and the prince of the lost Magical Kingdom. NOPE!
Oh and if you haven't noticed, When Fire and Water mix, they cause steam.. Which is wind... But the effect of it's magic makes it Shadow, since we can see the dark patterns in the spell.
No shit, genius. However, my post was about SYMBOLISM! Leave the physics at home.
Luminair is a spell that can be equalled to Dark Matter, Lucca's area magma bomb and Frog's Frog Drop spell. They are the ultimate of their innate.
irrelevent.
And isn't it a coincidence that none of them are Shadow?
Isn't it a coincidence that Marle and Frog both have Water? Man, Frog really DID marry Leene! LOL the Frog/Leene ending is DEH CANON!!111
Also, in Kajar, opening the books, there is no Shadow book. But once you open the door, Oo look. There is a "Black Rock" used to create a Shadow triple tech.
Close, but not quite. There's no lightning book either. Just wind. And it has nothing to do with the elemental balance. An NPC explains it.
"Life comes from Water, which cultivates the Air, which feeds the Fire, which unveils the secrets of the universe."
pwned.
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Whats up your ass.
That wind represents Lightning. When Crono is blessed with magic, that wind effect is placed on him and he gains lightning.
And I don't remember that quote. Wasn't it more like Water created wind, wind makes fire dance.
But if your statement was true, then "the secrets of the universe" is Shadow magic respectfully, as the universe is pretty much 99% dark matter.
Oh, and I'm never irrelevant in my posts. Someone stated that there was no difference in Luminaire and Dark Matter, as they are the most powerful spells. My point was to point out that Frog Drop and Magma bomb are also ultimate spells of their innate. So there is really no Luminaire vs Dark Matter = Good vs Evil. You could do Luminiare vs Magma bomb or Frog Drop or whatever, they are simply there to balance out nature, and from game evidance, Shadow is created by the other powers, or was acctually seperated from Shadow.
As in from Shadow- Lightning, Water and Fire magic spread out. Only Magus, Zeal, Schala still possess that power, and the Zealians turned to Lavoid magic which was simply from his power source.
Now stop being rude on the internet. Failing to have a social life doesn't mean acting all 1337 on the internet will make you big or whatever you think.
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Uh, neither Mega Bomb nor Frog Drop are either Elements respective ultimate spells...Especially since neither of them are Magic...
Lightning - Luminaire
Fire - Flare
Water - Hexagon Mist
Shadow - Dark Matter
Also, why/how is steam wind? Especially when you then state that the wind represents Crono's Heavenly/Lightning Element?
Oh, and although it seems that AuraTwilight was being a lil rash (it didn't seem as though Zaperking's post was directed at Aura...), I didn't really think Aura was being rude at all...Just making different points & stuffs.
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Kk, Thanks for the spell list. I had forgotten the names. ^.^
Anyway, I was talking about Steam in real physics lol, in our world.
The Wind element effect represents Crono's power and the whole Lightning consept in the game.
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Well, if you're talking about "real life" physics...then I still don't understand calling it "wind"...I suppose what you're looking for is gas?
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That wind represents Lightning. When Crono is blessed with magic, that wind effect is placed on him and he gains lightning.
Ok, sure. fine.
And I don't remember that quote. Wasn't it more like Water created wind, wind makes fire dance.
Oh yea. Either way, it doesn't get lightning or shadow in there, so it's a different system that the Balance, I guess.
But if your statement was true, then "the secrets of the universe" is Shadow magic respectfully, as the universe is pretty much 99% dark matter.
when I wrote that quote, I was thinking things like science >_>
Someone stated that there was no difference in Luminaire and Dark Matter, as they are the most powerful spells. My point was to point out that Frog Drop and Magma bomb are also ultimate spells of their innate. So there is really no Luminaire vs Dark Matter = Good vs Evil.
But the good vs evil (SYMBOLISM) can still work.
Shadow is created by the other powers, or was acctually seperated from Shadow.
That's ridiculous, then there's no balance. By that logic, just dump the whole system and go with the CC magic system.
Anyway, I was talking about Steam in real physics lol, in our world.
Indeed, leave that in the real world, we're discussing magic. You're the one who brought up the Antipode thing, which is Shadow. Don't jump around.
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While trying to look for Spekkio's spheel (which turns out there wasn't one) on Shadow Magic, I found this...
You've got great strength, however,
since I can't measure your inner
character, I can't give any magic to
you.
It seems that Magic Elements are determined by people's inner characters O_o
What a weird fellow.
Being a frog, let's give him Water!
Also odd, it seems as though Frog then just gets Water because he's a frog...
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Frog: Fuck you, Spekkio.
Seriously though, Frog got screwed. I'm not surprised though. A similiar thing happened to Serge. He's a White Innate, but when in Lynx's body, he was stuck with Black. And yea, I did remember having a short discussion on this board about what Schala's Innate would be if she had one. Someone said Red because she's genetically identical to Kid. We debunked it with personality.
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And yea, I did remember having a short discussion on this board about what Schala's Innate would be if she had one. Someone said Red because she's genetically identical to Kid. We debunked it with personality.
Shoot, you don't even have to go that far. Harle is Kid's genetic twin, and she's black to Kid's red.
I tend to think Schala's "color" would be white and her element would be Shadow.
OdF
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CC innate is different than CT element, stop trying to combine the two. Like Spekkio said CT element is determined by inner character, but he never explains the reasoning behind his choices, besdies Frog.
I don't see the books as a reference to magic. Think about it normally, without water you can not have wind, and without wind fire can not exist. It is that simple.
Shadow is just as powerful as heaven, fire, or water. If Magus had been a happy wizard who wasn't so emo then this unfounded belief would have never existed.
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I don't see the books as a reference to magic. Think about it normally, without water you can not have wind, and without wind fire can not exist. It is that simple.
Actually, it's yet simpler I should think. What's written in that book is probably some old, or maybe earthbound, writing or poetry. It's not some concrete book of science or magic. All it implies is that, to observation, wind and the waves are connected, which may simply be an echo of old superstition. And the fire is yet easier: it does not say anything about the connection between wind and fire, merely that one makes the other dance. It is imagry, pure and simple. Some scholar at Zeal likely thought it a quaint thing and used it as the key to the secret room.
In all reason, though, CT is working on fragmented and mingled western/eastern philosophies, and CC attempts to reconcile it all to some extent. Fire, Water, Earth, Air... that is called the Aristotilian world-view (different than our one now, which I suppose could be called Democritian.) CT took that standard, and often cliched array, and turned it about a little. They kept fire and water, but made Earth deeper, and Air higher. In some respect, if you think about it, even in the Greek view, who owns the earth - and by that I mean under the earth, not upon it. It is Hades, a very shadowy lord. And what of the airs? Those, if you expand upon them, reach to the heavens. Thus Heavenly/Lightning is a glorified 'Air' and Shadow a glorified 'Earth'. Also, ideas of Heavenly and Shadow likely tie more into Eastern philosophies. This also, likely, accounts for Shadow being a mixture of the other three, rather than an equal of the other four constitutive elements, as it would be in the west. Now, CC attempts to change this a little. It removes Heavenly and Shadow from the four, giving them pre-eminent places apart. The four now are the standard Aristotilian elements: Red for Fire, Blue for Water, Yellow for Earth, and Green for Air... with some allowances, admittedly. White and Black are now set apart, more powerful than these, or at least unique - neither has a 'field' element, for example, and they are each representative of the most powerful warring sides... though not neccessarially as one might think. Serge, Fate, Lynx, and the Time Devourer, are all white/black, though Serge is both white and black, and the Time Devourer is white, proving that black does not imply evil. So Chrono Cross is perhaps the fulfilment of what is shown in Chrono Trigger, replacing the two missing elements.
Another theory on the matter, however, is that Green and Yellow are rather a mingling of the old four.
Now through all of this, I am inclined to think that, intent wise, there is no actual good or evil attached to black or white, Lightning or Shadow. They are just opposites. This is not like the Force, with a Light and Dark side, and one cannot be tempted by Shadow (different from the shadows) any more than by Lightning. Both are symbols of power, and both can be used evilly. However, it seems to be that Shadow is a little more difficult to use, more secretive and, if the quote about it being a mingling of the other three is right, extremely rare. Thus it may be thought that only those that study for a long time, or are born apart, can make use of these, and often these unique or secritive people are themselves evil. Thus it is by parallell, but not by cause, that a Shadow innate might be evil. After all, one must remember that Magus was Shadow innate and, while grim and morose in his youth, he had commited no grave atrocities so as to label him evil. It likely works like the old system of Humours, where an excess of Melecholy Humour made one, well, melencholy and morose. Bile, and and the like had other effects, and by this the middle ages people attributed tempers to people. An excess of one put one out of balance, and gave them a temper far to one side. This magic system is likely of a similar sort. Thus a Shadow innate may be grim and sullen, a Lighning innate more bright and cheerful and prone to heroics, a Fire innate quite-tempered, and so forth. It may then lend greater influence to a certain good or evil side, but by no means precludes a single allegiance.
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the Time Devourer is white, proving that black does not imply evil.
I thought that because Lavos isn't from earth, he has no color innate. TD has no defined innate (He changes them throughout the battle, but starts and ends it with White... But that's just for the sake of the Yellow-Red-Green-Blue-Black-White pattern). That leaves Schala, who's white Innate, I suppose, to decide what Innate the fusion will bear. Lavos has no innate, DG has no defined Innate.
Think of it like an equation:
X=0+0+6
X=6
Assuming White is 6, of course. Meaning that from all the color innates he has, his natural one is white.
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Well since those secret rooms were made by Belthasar I would assume that since he was the scientific Guru that the implications of the order would have been scientifically produced.
Think about it like this, when you mix colors you will always eventually get brown. So when you mix magic in CT you will always get shadow. It isn't due to shadow being the supreme element. If anything it is to combat the majority of the group not having shadow attacks, a gameplay element that evolved into the storyline.
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CC innate is different than CT element, stop trying to combine the two.
No duh they're different. That's not the point. What you apparently don't realize is that, since Trigger and Cross do exist in the same world, each character has to be able to exist under either convention. Hence, Trigger characters would have a "color" if transplanted into Cross, and vice versa. That's all I'm saying.
I'll combine whatever I please, thank you very much. :P
OdF
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All that philosophical stuff Daniel wrote
Yea! Also, anyone else noticed that the White Dragon was called the "Sky" Dragon and the Yellow Dragon was called "Earth?" OOOOoooo..... think on that.
I thought that because Lavos isn't from earth, he has no color innate. TD has no defined innate (He changes them throughout the battle, but starts and ends it with White... But that's just for the sake of the Yellow-Red-Green-Blue-Black-White pattern). That leaves Schala, who's white Innate, I suppose, to decide what Innate the fusion will bear. Lavos has no innate, DG has no defined Innate.
Think of it like an equation:
X=0+0+6
X=6
Assuming White is 6, of course. Meaning that from all the color innates he has, his natural one is white.
Good points! I would think though, that since Lavos kinda created magic as we know it, he'd have some innate. Maybe Rainbow or some whacky shit like that. Same goes for Dragon God and Time Devourer. Yawr.
Think about it like this, when you mix colors you will always eventually get brown. So when you mix magic in CT you will always get shadow. It isn't due to shadow being the supreme element. If anything it is to combat the majority of the group not having shadow attacks, a gameplay element that evolved into the storyline.
Magic isn't paint, though. So no. You just get a Fire/Ice crossbreed spell or WTF ever. As for the colors in CC, we know what you get when you mix them. Rainbow ^.^ Pride Power!
Dragon God: OMG, Harle, I LUUV your nayols!
Time Devourer: Oh GOD, they're to die for, hun!
Schala&Harle: On the count of 3. 1...2....3! *they kill each other with Luminare and Black Hole*
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Umm, no. Fire + Ice = Shadow
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For that one spell. >_> Besides Antipode and it's more powerful versions, there are spells that deal both fire and water damage.
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Are there any spells that combine fire and lightning or water/ice and lightning?... actually Just thought of Final Kick and gatling Kick... are those considered shadow damage?
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Actually, when you combine Techs in CC, you can come out w/entirely different Elemental color innates...
Also, Lavos didn't create all magic as we know it. Since we know that everything is based on the balance of the four Magic elements...
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Yes, it's rather intresting how Glenn's Dash and Gash (Green) combined with Serge's Dash and Slash (White), form X-Strike (Red). The three colors are so unrelated!
Oh, and Innates are not CT elements, as we know. Lavos is responsible for these, but it's the Dragonians who manufactured the first Elements, and we see some prehistoric... things... In Gaea's Navel with Color Innates. So I guess that's more like the Planet's kind of inner elements, meaning Lavos woulden't have them.
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the Time Devourer is white, proving that black does not imply evil.
I thought that because Lavos isn't from earth, he has no color innate. TD has no defined innate (He changes them throughout the battle, but starts and ends it with White... But that's just for the sake of the Yellow-Red-Green-Blue-Black-White pattern).
What about Starky?
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The TD isn't evil.... It's the thoughts that one may have after thinking of millions of years... And after their life is destroyed...
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the Time Devourer is white, proving that black does not imply evil.
I thought that because Lavos isn't from earth, he has no color innate. TD has no defined innate (He changes them throughout the battle, but starts and ends it with White... But that's just for the sake of the Yellow-Red-Green-Blue-Black-White pattern).
What about Starky?
Well, Starky may have come from another world, untouched by Lavos. I'd think Lavos' energy is one-of-a-kind, and planet-generated-magic (Elements) could be avilable from any Planet with life on it...
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It could be though, that Elements are a fundamental result of the tampering done by Lavos...But, anyways, perhaps like Magical innatedness, Elemental innatedness is also determined by a person's inner character and anyone can use them (we know that everyone and every species on Chrono world can use them).
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It could be though, that Elements are a fundamental result of the tampering done by Lavos..
Impossible, he never landed in the Dragonians' earth.
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It could be though, that Elements are a fundamental result of the tampering done by Lavos..
Impossible, he never landed in the Dragonians' earth.
Elements were developped by FATE (at least in part) on the Humans' earth.
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It could be though, that Elements are a fundamental result of the tampering done by Lavos..
Impossible, he never landed in the Dragonians' earth.
Elements were developped by FATE (at least in part) on the Humans' earth.
Wait wait wait, the Draconians made the Elements, not FATE...
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Again, it's not really so much 'made' as it is manufactured. The Elements exist in some kind of raw form beforehand via the powerpoints that, yes, the Dragonians are said to have found.
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Yea, I don't think FATE is down with magic that can change history and stuff and endanger it's own existence.
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What powerpoints? The Dragonians only lived in El Nido, and the whole El Nido archipelago is artificial, terraformed by FATE...
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Oh, so if what you're saying is right Divine Dragon Falls don't exist, yes?
The point is that the Dragonians made the first original Elements (The Chrono Cross is the only Dragonian Element we see, but then again, the Dragon God uses all those you can't get anywhere else. Like Omega Elements, HolyLight and UltraNova), the Dragonians, who were still alive until the tenth century probably used Elements, so FATE probably manfuactured them so the humans won't got: "Why do they have it and we don't" like they always do.
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Only 3 parts of El Nido were there originally.
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Oh, so if what you're saying is right Divine Dragon Falls don't exist, yes?
The point is that the Dragonians made the first original Elements (The Chrono Cross is the only Dragonian Element we see, but then again, the Dragon God uses all those you can't get anywhere else. Like Omega Elements, HolyLight and UltraNova), the Dragonians, who were still alive until the tenth century probably used Elements, so FATE probably manfuactured them so the humans won't got: "Why do they have it and we don't" like they always do.
You can get HolyLight and Ultranova in other places, however. HolyLight you get around the time of the Dead Sea, and Ultranova can be trapped from the Sky Dragon.
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Oh, so if what you're saying is right Divine Dragon Falls don't exist, yes?
The point is that the Dragonians made the first original Elements (The Chrono Cross is the only Dragonian Element we see, but then again, the Dragon God uses all those you can't get anywhere else. Like Omega Elements, HolyLight and UltraNova), the Dragonians, who were still alive until the tenth century probably used Elements, so FATE probably manfuactured them so the humans won't got: "Why do they have it and we don't" like they always do.
You can get HolyLight and Ultranova in other places, however. HolyLight you get around the time of the Dead Sea, and Ultranova can be trapped from the Sky Dragon.
Okay, so I was wrong with HolyLight, but not with UltraNova. So what if it can be trapped from the Sky Dragon, it's still the Dragon God's, being as the Sky Dragon, is in essence, part of the Dragon God. Just like you can trap a FreeFall from the Black Dragon and a Volcano from the Fire Dragon. Anything that comes from the Dragon still goes down under my explanation.
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Yeah, the Dragonians may have invented the actual Elements, but they could only do it because FATE created El Nido in the first place (she created the power spots, including what the Dragonians call Divine Dragon Falls, that is).
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Ok, so, why are the Dragonians limited to El Nido? and/or where does it say this is how it is?
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Where would they be apart from El Nido? I'm not speaking about the Reptite Dimension.
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They'd stay in El-Nido because that's the only place on the Planet where they have their "religion". Fort Dragonia, the four Dragon Isles (Marbule counts as Black Dragon Isle), and they seemed to have befriended the Demi-Humans there. That's probably the only place where they got everything they wanted. I can't see why they'd want to go elsewhere.
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Well, having a religion, wouldn't they try to spread it's message? I don't see an entire people limiting themselves to one grouping of islands...It seems like a rediculous assumption...
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Zenan continent probably believes in Zurvan or something.
Besides, The Dragon God's would get more attention in El Nido because most of the settlers probably interwinded with the Dragonians, Demi-Humans anyway, till Porre the Whore came.
Also, Just because they are the Dragon 'Gods' doesn't mean they have a religion. They are just the biological entities of the elements pretty much.
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Also, Just because they are the Dragon 'Gods' doesn't mean they have a religion. They are just the biological entities of the elements pretty much.
No, there really is a Dragonian religion still practiced by some of the demihumans. As for spreading their message, not every religion is like that. It could be a sort of paganistic religion that try and stays together.
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Well, obviously they taught it to the demi-humans, yes? And I know not every religion isn't like that...It was just an idea...
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They'd want to stay where they can worship their belief, and they don't want to spread their belief to the world, because the world equals mostly humans. They hate humans, you know. Therefore, they'd stay where they can both worship and teach those that aren't, well, humans.
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Alright then, forget about the Dragonians and their religion...I don't think that's enough evidence to say that FATE created the power points as well, FATE didn't create Gaia's Navel for one...And for another, I don't think that just because the Dragonians might have only found the first power points in El Nido that means that all power points would be limited to El Nido. I mean, if the sources of Elements were limited to the few limited islands of El Nido, the place would be overrun by humans from all over...
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I don't think FATE would allow the Dragonians to leave El Nido...
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FATE woulden't allow ANYONE to leave El-Nido until after the Millenial Fair is over. 900 AD is WAY before that.
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What? Now the Millenial Fair is involved into all that? I think I don't understand your statement.
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The game ends when the Millenial Fair. Any kind of intervention with Crono's jouney in 1000 A.D. could mess up the future. Therefore, once the Millenial Fair ends, the future is secure. The Midnight Parade is the one point in the story in the Millenial Fair when everything's already pretty much in order. So, until 1000 A.D.'s Millenial Fair is over, no one could go. Because any intervention with Truce's past at any point and until the end of the Millenial Fair could somehow stop Crono from saving the future.
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Oh okay. 76,000BC to 900AD is way before than that anyway, as you said. So that's why the Dragonians never went out of El Nido, and thus the only power spots they knew was the artificial ones made by FATE.
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The game ends when the Millenial Fair. Any kind of intervention with Crono's jouney in 1000 A.D. could mess up the future. Therefore, once the Millenial Fair ends, the future is secure. The Midnight Parade is the one point in the story in the Millenial Fair when everything's already pretty much in order. So, until 1000 A.D.'s Millenial Fair is over, no one could go. Because any intervention with Truce's past at any point and until the end of the Millenial Fair could somehow stop Crono from saving the future.
Wow, I never realized that. That makes me feel a lot better about a lot of things concerning FATE. Just to be certain...is this the reason FATE was created? Or was that something concerning just Cronopolis until the time crash.
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Acctually, FATE needed no one to leave El Nido once they were there because they could go back to the main land and stop FATE from being created. FATE is selfish.
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I dont believe crono died when porre attacked guardia. Its not stated anywhere that he died in the war with porre. Also keep in mind that if it wasnt for lynx supplying porre with hi tech weapons they may have not taken guardia. Of course if guardia lived on in the future then it would of detected the coming of lavos. They just happen to be at naidas bell in the dead sea because of the connection with guardia.
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I dont believe crono died when porre attacked guardia. Its not stated anywhere that he died in the war with porre. Also keep in mind that if it wasnt for lynx supplying porre with hi tech weapons they may have not taken guardia. Of course if guardia lived on in the future then it would of detected the coming of lavos. They just happen to be at naidas bell in the dead sea because of the connection with guardia.
Porre invaded Guardia in 1,005 AD, Lynx wasn't even created yet (Wazuki changed into Lynx in 1,010 AD).
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...................................... Are you insane?
Guardia fell in 1005AD. Lynx was created in 1007AD when Wazuki went mad... end of story.. Lynx did not supply anything, but FATE probably used him to get some influencial power in Porre so he could get in touch with General Viper and lure them to the Dead Sea.
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Lynx was actually created in 1,010 AD when Wazuki was playing with Serge on the beach and suddenly became crazy.
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When did it say that Wazuki acctually finished turning into Lynx in 1010AD... What I got was that Wazuki stopped acting like himself after they came back from Chronopolis, and dissapeared for some time, came back to finish off Serge. Kind like what Marge said.
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What you got is right, Marge says Wazuki stopped acting like himself, and he was obviously not a feline demi-human yet when he came back from Chronopolis. However, there's nothing about him disappearing for some time, so I assume Wazuki continued to live with Marge and Serge until the day he drowned Serge.
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In fact, the game states Wazuki went mad from the sight of Serge's near death and the power from the FF. Though the transformation may have by 1010 A.D., he disappeared by 1006 A.D. He only had enough power to get Serge back to Arni, then ran off to becomes a big walking, talking FATE-like-thinking cat.
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I think Crono himself was one of the attackers. Nobody is sure what happened to the Masamune between 600 A.D. and 1005 A.D. most believe it was stored in Guardia Castle and something happened to it to make it evil. Whatever made it evil, it could corrupt even a soul like Crono's just like it did to Radius and Karsh. And it's not like we get to see any of the Zenan continent in Chrono Cross, or any of the real higher ups in the Porre Army, let alone hear of them.
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It wasn't notably evil until after the fall.
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If Crono was the attacker, I doubt the kids in Lucca's orphanage would have drawn a picture of him with the sentence "Crono's is cool!!" written on it.
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If Crono was the attacker, I doubt the kids in Lucca's orphanage would have drawn a picture of him with the sentence "Crono's is cool!!" written on it.
Unless they did it before he suddenly, out of the blue, turned around and, snarling, murdered them all in cold blood, catching them off guard.
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Well, it seems to be the general consensus that the fire happened sometime inbetween 1010 and 1015, so lets operate on that theory.
To start off the proof (probably not a formal proof, but hey, you never know), we'll assume that the drawings and letters found in Lucca's house were created sometime before the fall of guardia. This paper would've had to survive first 5 years of sitting in a house (since its not framed that would imply that it was just lying around), then a fire (once again, not framed) and then another few years exposed to the elements. Paper does not hold up well under these circumstances, the heat and cold, plus other factors would completely erode the paper and most of the drawing. Thus this possibility cannot have happened short of some time lapse of some form.
If that didn't happen, perhaps the scenario went more like this: after Lucca's house was turned into an orphanage, she told the kids the story of saving the world, assuming Crono and Marle died again. Now, the line "Crono is so cool" or what-not is the tell here. You don't see kids drawing pictures of some historical figure like George Washington or Abraham Lincoln and captioning it with "Abe's so cool" or "George rocks." For the most part something like that would have to be written.
Next, lets look at a more specific possibility; ok, so this time only Crono lived, Marle is definitly dead (as she is the princess.. one would assume they would have killed her). To disprove this idea (or discourage at the very least), I invite you to picture the final scene before the fall of the castle to Poore. The poorean (sp?) army is pushing towards the castle at a rapid pace, the knights of the square table, etc. just can't hold them back any longer. It is incredibly unlikely for them to be murdering every resident on the way (only the absolute cruelest and stupidest armies did that), so the likely scenario is that, while towns are perhaps devestated, the people remain unharmed. The king orders Marle to leave the castle, contrary to some popular belief I do not believe that Marle is stupid nor a bimbo (and I don't see much evidence supporting that she is one); she leaves. This means Crono has a choice, either protect his relatively new wife and live to fight another day, or abandon her to fight a losing battle at the castle. While if it wasn't for Marle Crono would probably stay, I don't believe there is anyway he'd let her go off on her own. He leaves with her before the fall and they go into hiding.
The next key is the ghosts. Yes, they are of Crono and Marle (or so the game implies); however look at the location they're in. This is a mishmash of times and events, partially of dimensions even. I point to the "branching" theory for the structure of time in terms of parallel dimensions; that is to say that for EACH major decision with more than one outcome a branching point happens (which seems to be the way this game has treated some of the events), it is only logical to conclude that they may have died in ONE of the dimensions. One does not imply all, that would be a logical fallacy, thus there is no way you can say that the ghosts indicate anything about either Crono or Marle dying in the original dimension; the ghosts could've come from anywhere within the kalleidscope of dimensions on the same plane.
As for Lucca's letter, she is very clearly talking about them in the present tense. After all, if they're already dead then what would it matter if someone went back in time to kill them? It would've happened anyway, and as proved in the first game just because you kill something before it becomes a problem doesn't guarantee that it won't cause an even larger set of problems. You have to assume that someone with the motivation to actually do this would have the benefit in this case of hindsight. Or else why would they have any reason to actually do it?
But for arguments sake, lets pretend that the translators *didn't* care all that much about tenses or were very lose with them. Here's the problem, if that were the case then all the HUGE amount of circumstantial evidence inferred from the game's text (the parts where it doesn't give actual dates) would be completely and utterly undependable and this debate would be completely pointless. So I assume that this is not the case.
This leaves us with two possible outcomes, either a) Crono and Marle are alive, or b) Square wasn't trying all that hard to actually make the two games fit together and all this reasoning is trying to fit a round peg into a square hole.
Personally, judging from the comments made by the dev team for CC, I would suggest that it is more of a very, VERY loose sequel (also, when you result to different dimensions for a game or book you often do it because you ran out of ideas of some form or another.... but thats just my opnion (see DCs dimensions...)). However, if this is not the case, I think that its obvious they must still be alive (and they had better be.. else I'll be very, very angry with Square... how dare they kill off my two favorite characters in any video game series ever, ya... I might be a bit biased, but the logic stands on its own).
I'll admit to not being a fan of CC... personally I think it made far too little sense and didn't include the things I liked about CT (the teaming up aspects for attacks in particular), HOWEVER, as it is a sequel and the logic can prove it I believe that Crono and Marle must still be alive.
As an addition, since the dimensions all end up merging (according to the end of CC as I understand it); since they're most likely alive in the other dimension (and unless the merging of the dimensions killed EVERYONE from the other dimensions) then they would be alive in the resulting dimension anyway.
If I'm wrong on any of these, I'd love to hear your opinion on it... I think I've covered most cases except incredibly illogical time traveling just to make a specific event work like I want it... and if I were to deal with that I'd have an infinite set of possibilites (including crono going back and saving himself... I guess.. ow.. my brain hurts)
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I really couldn't try and fathom why Crono would be the one who tainted the Masamune. First of all, he knows that the sword isn't meant to be used by him, it was meant for Frog. Second, why would he attack his own kingdom, with his wife being the heir to the throne? Third, why would he endanger his mothers life? Fourth and finally, why would he even want to overthrow Guardia in the first place? It's not like his imprisonment is really going to knock him over the edge to the point where he goes on a killing spree and overthrowns and entire kingdom. Also, if he actually did do it you would think there would be a few stories of the teenager who single handledly destroyed a nation.
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Well, the sword may have been corrupted for a long time. It may have just been that enough negative energy and a dark possessed soul did not enter it ever before. The main things that probably stopped Frog from going wild was his oath to restore honor. But his whole situation seems like revenge, so the sword obviousally channeled that energy.
I dunno if it was Crono, any possibility is open, but whoever did it should be outside of time.
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Look, there are a few things we observe of the Masamune. When its a boardsword, Frog and Cyrus use it. We do not see any corruption from the Sword then. When the sword is red, Radius and Dario use it. We see corruption from the Sword then. Obviously, the only differences is that the sword is a normal boardsword once, and then its red. Saying that the sword may be evil as a boardsword is unfounded, as we never see such. We only see it as evil when red.
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Ok. I have an idea, but this is just speculation. There is no proof for what I'm about to say but it makes you think about somethings. We all know that the Masamune drains energy from Magus when you fight him. But what would it do if you fight Lavos with it. I think that the Masamune Absorbed some of Lavos's energy. We know that Lavos's energy drove Queen Zeal mad with greed, so here is my guess. Frog after fighting Lavos, notices that the Masamune is changing or maybe it starts to change him. So since he doesn't like what he is changing into he gets rid of the sword. Now I thought about who might want the sword after that and I can think of one person who would have had a chance. What if Tata got hold of the sword. What if he became jealous of Frog and wanted the sword have fame. With the negative energy from Lavos in the sword and his greed/jealosy, he easily could have started the whole thing with the Masamune being tainted. But this is just a theory, no facts to prove it. But what if.............
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Tata was 400 years too early to do all this crap, and Frog should remain noble because of his will over the sword.
It should also be noted that gameplay wise, the Masamune absorbs energy from the Mammon Machine, but not from Lavos.
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Tata was 400 years too early to do all this crap, and Frog should remain noble because of his will over the sword.
It should also be noted that gameplay wise, the Masamune absorbs energy from the Mammon Machine, but not from Lavos.
Being 400 years late is irrelevant, since the person has to be outside of time.
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It might not even be a person, it could be a thing that caused it. And just some random person got the Masamune.
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Being 400 years late is irrelevant, since the person has to be outside of time.
What are you babbling about? Tata isn't a time traveler.
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Being 400 years late is irrelevant, since the person has to be outside of time.
What are you babbling about? Tata isn't a time traveler.
Not at the time of CT, but anything can happen.
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Being 400 years late is irrelevant, since the person has to be outside of time.
What are you babbling about? Tata isn't a time traveler.
Not at the time of CT, but anything can happen.
Yeah, under that Logic Dalton can be Crono's father.
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Well, there's no evidence disproving it...
:D
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But there's no evidence PROVING it either. Tata was such a minor character that we never see him again after his five minutes of fame. He was just a plot device to add one more destination to your quest.
In this case, I'd rather settle for Dalton. Atleast he fell into a Gate of disputable nature.
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As an addition, since the dimensions all end up merging (according to the end of CC as I understand it); since they're most likely alive in the other dimension (and unless the merging of the dimensions killed EVERYONE from the other dimensions) then they would be alive in the resulting dimension anyway.
This is a point from Chrono Cross that I have always found confusing. There are times I wonder if Kato purposely left the ending this way so that it would be left up to the player to decide what really happened for himself. One thing that should be taken into consideration is when the time split happened in relation to Lynx's activities on the Zenan mainland. Although the topic is about Crono and Marle and their state of life after Porre overthrew Guardia, one thing that also needs to be taken into consideration is Lynx's role with Porre as well. That could lead to some insight as to what happens after the dimensions are re-merged.
Well, the sword may have been corrupted for a long time. It may have just been that enough negative energy and a dark possessed soul did not enter it ever before. The main things that probably stopped Frog from going wild was his oath to restore honor. But his whole situation seems like revenge, so the sword obviousally channeled that energy.
I dunno if it was Crono, any possibility is open, but whoever did it should be outside of time.
You'll have to define "long time". What discredits the whole idea that the Masamune was tainted during Chrono Trigger is that:
1) Crono, Marle, Lucca, and Robo had it in their possession before Frog ever claimed ownership of it.
2) Cyrus briefly possessed it. Furthermore, quotes from Frog's flashback indicate that Cyrus was sane while he used the Masamune.
3) Masa and Mune were conscious within the sword in Chrono Trigger, that is certain. It is not so certain in Chrono Cross due to these quotes from after you "free" the Masamune:
Radius:
I no longer sense the slightest
bit of malice from the Masamune.
There is no more fear of
succumbing to its enmity.
Mune:
Huaaah...
You awake, Masa?
Masa:
Yeah...
But looking back...
I think we've done
something terrible.
Mune:
Heh heh...
No one will know if
we don't tell.
Doreen:
HEY!
What were you
two up to!?
Masa:
Yikes!
It's Doreen!
Mune:
N-Nothing!
We don't remember a thing!
Doreen:
Hmmm, I see...
Well, just to make sure
you're not up to any mischief...
I'm coming along.
In Crono Cross Masa and Mune may have been lying dormant within the sword, and it is implied that they had no control over what happened to the sword. This is very different from Chrono Trigger, where they were conscious within the sword.
I do agree, however, that who or what tainted the Masamune could have been from outside of time. The question of who or what can't really be answered, and hopefully the next game in the series will answer it.
If people wish to speculate based on known information, it should be taken into consideration that the Masamune did disappear during 1005 A.D. From there, it was moved to El Nido. Based on known information, there are few possible candidates, if any, that could have tainted the sword or caused its disappearance. Furthermore, in 1005 A.D. the sword was still considered legendary, not infamous or demonic. Lynx did not exist yet, nor did the time split. The FATE computer, then, really had no reason to intervent on the mainland as of yet. It also appears unlikely that Magus would have been the one who tainted the Masamune. His life aim was always to exact revenge upon Lavos, and after that was completed, his only care was to find Schala (or was so implied). Furthermore, Lucca's letter discredits any other speculation of Magus' tainting of the Masamune, as she wrote that letter after the sword disappeared.
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A thought, though...I wonder if Lucca saw that Guardia had fallen when she went to get Doan? I mean, surely...
Two possibilities comes from this...
One, Lucca is hiding something for some reason. Considering we don't know much about what happened after CT (save for the flaming orphanage incident and Kid, and even then a lot of that is second hand) this could present a whole new story.
Two, there was another time traveller that influenced Porre's military descision, hence making two MORE dimensions - The one Lucca visited on her trip to get Doan, where Guardia was still around and influential, and one where it wasn't. Again, a whole new story. :wink:
It's crazy but I say that because Lucca used to trade machines with Porre (there's a receipt in the orphanage) and the Porrean girl Luccia is her friend. So the situation was probably more complicated than just kind Guardia vs. evil Porre.
Of course, Luccia could BE Lucca. The similarities are there, and the age would be right. Lucca is doing undercover work in Porre in an attempt at revenge. :D
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Of course, Luccia could BE Lucca. The similarities are there, and the age would be right. Lucca is doing undercover work in Porre in an attempt at revenge. :D
Except thwe whole thing where she worked with Lucca.
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Except thwe whole thing where she worked with Lucca.
Is there anybody who says this other than Luccia? Again, all a part of the conspiracy. :lol: :lol: :lol:
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and how Luccia and Lucca have NOTHING in common except their genius? For which Lucca is STILL smarter?
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and how Luccia and Lucca have NOTHING in common except their genius? For which Lucca is STILL smarter?
Exactly, Lucca was tearing the scientific community a new one before Luccia even knew what a screwdriver is.
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What i dont get is How could crono be killed? HE was the strongest person on the planet for Yoda's sake! He destroyed lavos. I dont understand how he could lose in a duel (assuming that shadow was him in the PSX ending)
I personally dont think he was killed but im still wondering how the hell Guardia Fell. Crono NAturally wouldent let that happen. And i would love to know how porre raised the greatest army ever known in order to conquer guardia (then theres the whole thing of motive for doing so)
The whole Situration is very frustrating.
Pardon me, but I'm going to quote a movie here:
"The mightiest man may be slain by a single arrow..." I don't care how strong Crono may have been at the fall of Gaurdia; he couldn't have possibly stood up to an entire army. He may have been poisoned, for all we know. Lucca is dead without doubt, and Marle would have likely been killed, as she was the princess. There is little doubt in my mind that Crono is dead, possibly a martyr, but you all may think differently. Also, it was said somewhere that a discovery was made in El Nido, most likely the Elements, which would have given Porre the upper hand. In my opinion, the only person who has the slimmest chance of being alive out of the original seven would have to be Magus, if he did indeed remain in 1000 AD, as many of us would hope. And actually, Guile was originally intended to be Magus, but the design was abandoned. Hence, the floaty-thingy and the magic.
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*sigh* This is getting annoying...
CT stands out from other RPGs by keeping a good relationship between storyline happenings and gameplay mechanics. At least, a better relationship than most stereotypical RPGs. He's poisoned? Antidote. If the whole army is full of soldiers like the typical Porre army members in CC, he'd have no problem killing any of them in one hit with the Rainbow, let alone Luminaire. Crono is ridiculously powerful. All of them are.
And where do you get the idea Magus stayed in 1000 AD? Did you not see him walk through the portal?
God, I'm so tired of Magus fanboyism...
I'm about to get beat by V_T, I know it.
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Magil was alive, wasn't he? I've never played RD personally, so I may be missing something there, but I've seen enough of it to know the basics of what happened. And Crono, nothing against him, but in fairness, could Lucca also have used Flare or Mega Bomb to save herself? It doesn't matter how much power you have. If you get run through with a sword or take a bullet to the chest, you will die. Also, if (and I'm perfectly aware that this is entirely speculation) Marle was already killed, that might have been a bit of a distraction for our red-haired hero, PARTICULARLY if she was slain right in front of him. It would be the perfect opening for a soldier to blow a hole in his chest. If I sound a bit insensitive, I apologize, but I find it highly unlikely that Crono survived for long after the downfall of Guardia, even if he and Marle escaped the original attack.
What can be assumed happened to each character:
Crono-- Possibly dead
Marle-- Most likely dead
Lucca-- Proven to be dead
Robo-- [EDIT: HAS NOT BEEN CREATED YET]
Frog-- Almost certainly dead; he's not a friggin' immortal
Ayla-- Impossible for her to be alive after 65 million years
Magus-- He's the only one we have no clues as to his whereabouts. I wasn't getting at fanboyism, just stating the facts. I was just noticing the fact that he showed up in RD.
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Robo exists because of the timecrash, because he is the prometheus circuit.
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Crono-- Possibly dead
Marle-- Most likely dead
Lucca-- Proven to be dead
Robo-- [EDIT: HAS NOT BEEN CREATED YET]
Frog-- Almost certainly dead; he's not a friggin' immortal
Ayla-- Impossible for her to be alive after 65 million years
Magus-- He's the only one we have no clues as to his whereabouts. I wasn't getting at fanboyism, just stating the facts. I was just noticing the fact that he showed up in RD.
First off, I'm assuming you're referring to the year 1020 AD.
As such, Crono and Marle have completely indeterminable fates.
Lucca was not proven dead, only captured at worst.
Robo...well yeah, after leaving the Shrine, wasn't actually created for a long time, and Frog and Ayla are indeed gone by then.
Magus...it's true, we have no idea. Yes he was Magil in RD, but I've been through my opinion of RD many times before, heh. I personally don't think Magus is strong enough to create gates through time. Sure, he was able to somehow summon Lavos from his PD, but that doesn't mean he created a gate.
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Well, creating a gate and stopping time is a different thing all together. The Time Egg actually stops time to move things to it. Like the thing with the flowing river analogy. The Time Egg temporarily freezes the river, giving people a way to go back to a point in time which would otherwise be inaccessible.
Creating a gate is a different thing, I guess. The Summoning technique could have been modified a bit to give Magus the power to move around. Surely, he had gotten stronger after the whole event. And by him knowing all these monsters, myths and lore surely proves that he's been around to different places to gain that insight.
So basically, he either found gates to go through. Or would it be possible that he could have tried to summon something from the future, and use it as a catalyst to go to that time? Because if you summon an item from another time, then shouldn't it be like the Lavos/FF effect? And if the theory holds that Chronopolis is actually in the future, then if Magus tried to summon an area (like that pentagram thing) from the future, then if he stepped out of it, wouldn't he be where it came from, but in turn, the pentagram would also be in the past? Meh, I dunno what I'm saying >.<
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List based on evidence and proof:
Crono- MIA, no evidence at all of what happend to him. Implied to be alive (see Lucca's letter, and Crono>j00).
Marle- MIA, no evidence at all of what happend to her. Implied to be alive in Lucca's letter.
Lucca- Proven Kidnapped, claimed dead. Death is unproven, no body is discovered, and death is only claimed by a villian.
Robo- Promethius Circut eventually dies. Whether that is Robo, or a copy of Robo's data or not, is not certain.
Frog- Would eventually die of old age.
Ayla- Same as Frog.
Magus- MIA, said to be searching for Schala.
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/!\ SPOILER /!\
In Radical Dreamers, Crono is dead, but we don't know how and why.
Kid wants to find the Frozen Flame because Lucca wanted to put it on a "childhood friend"'s tomb...
mmh I don't know how did Lucca knew about the Flame existence, but I think she wanted to use it to ressurect (once again) Crono.
Just Wanted to point out that Radical Dreamers does not take place in the same dimension as Chrono Trigger or Home World CC or even when CC unites the two different worlds. Cause in the easter egg in CC in Chronoplis it shows the beginning of Radical Dreamers to show that Fate controls all Dimensions not just Another World ...
So it is very possible that in that Crono is alive and well....
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We know...it's...on several pages of the site... :? :(
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Ok yeah ima go read up on the forums to make sure im not gonna make a newbie mistake again lol.
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Crono didn't die in the attack. He WAS the attack.
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Crono wouldn't attack the very kingdom he rules.
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We don't know who ruled Guardia in 1,005 A.D.
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I think that Marle got pregnant and that chrono took her into a different time during the attack, so that they wouldn't be killed. Then when he got back he saw their huge army and then he went back in time for a while to take care of Marle as the child grew
Another thing if Chrono died I believe that he most likly got killed by a traitor in the Castle. I mean a man walks up with an urgent message for chrono and stabs him in the back at the beggining of the battle killing him right as they start attacking the castle. Kinda simple but there is no other way that I think he would have died unless Marle got pregnant and he died defending her.
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Who said Crono and co. could still time-travel after defeating Lavos? The ending implies that they dismantled the Epoch after saving Crono's mother.
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I just dont think that they would dismember a flying time machine that is the only way for them to visit any of the CT characters.
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Except that's exactly what Lucca SAID they should and would do.
Plus, I'm sure it'd be way too tempting to mess with time for the benefit of the friends they made and thus mess things up and like...turn Marle into a half-frog.
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Except that's exactly what Lucca SAID they should and would do.
Plus, I'm sure it'd be way too tempting to mess with time for the benefit of the friends they made and thus mess things up and like...turn Marle into a half-frog.
=/
I think Lucca just wanted to dismantle it to study; the long term plan was probably to have Lucca make another time machine. And I agree with the second point.
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Plus, Crono fleeing to another time just to excape the Porrean army doesn't seem very Cronoish.
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Lucca's announcement of dismantling the Epoch seemed to be with a sense of finality. There was a "This is too dangerous to keep around" vibe.
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Well from the Kato interview...
"
4. Throughout the game, whenever characters from Chrono Trigger are mentioned, they are talked about as if they are dead. I can understand this with Lucca. However, shouldn't Crono and Marle still be alive? This game takes place twenty years after the plot action of Chrono Trigger, correct? Then, why are the Chrono Trigger characters talked about as if they are dead?
Question From: The Mad Druid spiralwalker@hotmail.com
This is another difficult question. (laughs) The fate of Crono and Marle is not thoroughly explained in Chrono Cross, but taking into consideration the fall of the Kingdom of Guardia and the rise of Porre's militarism on the main continent, there is a good chance the two friends may have been involved in some kind of incident.
He never directly states they died, but I think he strongly hinted it. Either they are dead, or injured beyond repair. >_>
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Me I believe he died, but he had a child and no one ever said it was Crono's decendent, only Marle's.
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He never directly states they died, but I think he strongly hinted it. Either they are dead, or injured beyond repair. >_>
Maybe it's me not being a native speaker, but where so you actually see this hinting? If he would have said accident, I would agree, but an incident can be everything.
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Well, if he spoke in a negative way, and Crono and co. didn't do anything during the game, either they are dead or seriously injured, no?
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I'm just gooing out on a limb here but what if the ending where Crono was never brought back to life was the real ending. Yes there's that drawing of him by some kid at Lucca's house in Chrono Cross, but the kid could have seen a picture of Crono and herd about him from other people. Also I say this because although I'm not sure I beleive Lucca had some sort of Journal entry saying somthing about the time egg she was creating was to be used to bring back a dear friend. If someone can please verify this for me.
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The issue there is that Masato Kato influenced the PSX cut scenes and specifically depicted Crono and Marle's marriage. It is possible that Crono is dead in Radical Dreamers.
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The issue there is that Masato Kato influenced the PSX cut scenes and specifically depicted Crono and Marle's marriage. It is possible that Crono is dead in Radical Dreamers.
You're not getting what I am saying, and that is that that ending is not the one that Radicle Dreamers, and Cross follow but the ending where you fight lavos w/o reviving Crono. and that cut scene is for beyond time ending olny(the one where you resurected Crono) the fact is with two endings that could be the real one it is hard to tell if Crono is alive and hiding, killed after beating Lavos, or never seen life again after ocean palace.
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Masato Kato produced Crono's marriage as the official resolution to the plot, just as he had the Fall of Guardia cut scene created. He did this while making Chrono Cross, so there is little doubt that he intended it to be this way. No animation was made for a Crono-dies situation.
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Don't forget, also, that the Beyond Time ending--the ending where Crono lives and gets married and all that--is number one in the endings list on the PSX version, suggesting it is intended to take precedent over all others.
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That is knowledge to all, and the second ending is where Crono is dead. but the order sugests the path the player takes to get to the endings, or the difficulty of achiving the ending. The point is the choice of CT ending 1, or 2 being the path CC takes is not of our knowledge because of they don't specify in the game nor dose Kato in any interview to my knowledge. so go ahead think ending 1 is the right path to CC but I can't see Crono loosing to any Porre troops, take this into thought the letter to Kid from Lucca has all that doubt about what they did because she lost her best friend and he would still be alive if they did not change the future. And Marle problably queen of Guardia by now is still Greeving at the loss of Crono because she loved him and feels guilty of his death because he sacrificed himself to save them the first time they encountered Lavos. and that they had a chance to ressurect him, but they did not, so she stoped eating, problably got ill and Guardia lost some of its power and could not concentrate on the war. How would you feel if you had the chance to prevent a lo ved one from cirtain death(not by old age, by heart attack, murder,ect.) and nelglected to do so so you lost that chance, I bet you would feel like you were lower than dirt(if you have a...well what that kricket is to that puppet-boy (forgot the word and the puppet's name)) and go into a depressional state of mind (explaining the mood of Luccas letter as well as my thought on how Crono's death aflicted Marle's welfare).
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I will olny back down on this argument when Kato 'offically' states that the Beyond time ending is the one that CC takes place after. but I also will say that you may be right but unless he stats it we will never know. CT's 2 endings has the very similar concept to the Home world, and Another world, they contain the same people but differences are seen in the worlds ex. Serge survived, Serge died. while the same thing could be said about Crono in the 2 endings.
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I will olny back down on this argument when Kato 'offically' states that the Beyond time ending is the one that CC takes place after. but I also will say that you may be right but unless he stats it we will never know. CT's 2 endings has the very similar concept to the Home world, and Another world, they contain the same people but differences are seen in the worlds ex. Serge survived, Serge died. while the same thing could be said about Crono in the 2 endings.
Kato already "offically" implied this. He said that Crono and Marle got involved into some kind of incident (http://www.chronocompendium.com/Term/GamePro_Interview.html#4._Throughout_the_game.2C_whenever_characters_from_Chrono_Trigger_are_mentioned.2C_they_are_talked_about_as_if_they_are_dead._I_can_understand_this_with_Lucca._However.2C_shouldn.27t_Crono_and_Marle_still_be_alive.3F_This_game_takes_place_twenty_years_after_the_plot_action_of_Chrono_Trigger.2C_correct.3F_Then.2C_why_are_the_Chrono_Trigger_characters_talked_about_as_if_they_are_dead.3F) related to the 1,005 A.D. Fall of Guardia. If Crono had not been resurrected before this event, Kato would have spoken about just Marle, not both of them.
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I'll Back down now, but with that said I need the third installment of the Chrono series (if there ever is going to be one) to cover what happened to Guardia in full detrail and how its getting back on its feet.
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It seems clear to me, that the missing link of the CC story has to be Chrono. Something has to account for chrono's absence, we all know he'd be there, kicking ass if he could. There's alot going on with the frozen flame that's unclear, then there's the trouble with reconciling a hero in this world(Serge) that isn't Chrono to begin with. Both are silent, ambiguous characters, so as a player it's unfair to leave us with nothing to distinguish the two (serge and chrono) from each other.
I say missing link, because it's blatantly obvious that Square ultimately did not put 100 percent effort in the sequel. The scope, and feel of CT is so much bigger than CC, with it's small map, and repetitive areas. You can try to explain this discrepancy with the plot device of Fate, sure... but it's still cheating us from the rest of the game. No surprises really though, we all had a hunch when we bought it and noticed two cd's... when final fantasy programming was taking up 3 and 4 discs a game. Even when you account for FMV, there's still so much game missing. Another disc or 2 would take us out of the ridiculously small island, to go see Guardia, etc. And heaven forbid they let us do any time traveling in a Chrono game...
So yeah, it's frutstrating, and we're all left guessing as to what was missing amidst ridiculous claims by the game designers that their wasn't much missing at all. My guess is that Serge's existence was some sort of contradiction to Chrono's existence, them both not being able to exist at same time, in same world, dimensions, etc. Maybe they're the same person, maybe not.. doesn't matter. I won't guess as to the specifics, because Square likes to make those as confusing as possible, but it would go something to the effect of....
frozen flame, blah blah, serge born blah, blah, 5 horribly confusing cutscene's blah blah... and then you say "WOW, that's why they called him the assassin of time." I can't think of any other explanation that would reconcile the strong characters of both games.
Also, I like this because it's a play on words.... assassin of 'time', or otherwise translated as assassin of 'chrono.'
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I say missing link, because it's blatantly obvious that Square ultimately did not put 100 percent effort in the sequel. The scope, and feel of CT is so much bigger than CC, with it's small map, and repetitive areas.
I'm not sure that I agree, I feel that chrono cross is exactly the way it was supposed to be. The scope and feel of CT was always going to be bigger because it deals with the entire world over a period of tens of millions of years. CC deals with a purposely isolated corner of the world that is the side effect of CT's adventure, the characters have little contact with the outside world and so thats the way the world is presented.
No surprises really though, we all had a hunch when we bought it and noticed two cd's... when final fantasy programming was taking up 3 and 4 discs a game. Even when you account for FMV, there's still so much game missing. Another disc or 2 would take us out of the ridiculously small island, to go see Guardia, etc. And heaven forbid they let us do any time traveling in a Chrono game...
The story has much to do with time travel and it's effects, it allows CT to be better understood and expands the chrono universe and history by a fantastic amount. I'm not sure if estimating the content that a game offers by the number of disks it is shipped on is all that reliable either.
I do agree that I would love to see Chrono Break though :)
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i didn't stress this point enough maybe... but you're just falling for a plot device. while what you say is true, that the game is the way it was supposed to be, that doesn't mean it couldn't have been different. the scenario designer, and writers, at one point decided to make the game this way. i.e. with an alternate dimension that involves minimal programming because you can just lay over on the same code.
BUT, this isn't a rl account of things, and it's not some story discovered in a pharoah's tomb. This is an arbitray, aesthetic work of fiction. And you have to objectively realize that had the plot been written differently, or even expanded upon further, we WOULD have more game to play, that's less confusing, and IS a better game.
'each country gets the government it deserves.'
In short, just because somebody makes a sequel to chrono trigger about something equally as arbitrary... say making toast; that does not mean that this quest to obtain the toaster is some sort of penultimate sequel worthy of the name, just because the game developers tell you so. Even if perhaps, you think that the bit about the butter really sounds fascinating. Bad or good, it's not predestined art writ in stone... it's still just a story.
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Hmm, we may have to agree to disagree. I had reealised your point from the previous post however I believe Kato would most likely have had a basic outline of the series written down that would guide him in structuring any new game in the series (to keep the overall themes and plot lines consistant).
It is true that it is his choice which parts of the overall story he uses for a particular installment in the series, but these parts are still pre-thought out. I'm pretty sure that content of CC would have been considered long before the actual game was ever approved for development (Radical Dreamers).
Following the same lines, Kato probably has to a large degree thought out the content of Chrono Break. It would need fleshing out but thats his job for if the game was ever approved. The basic story and content are probably already decided just the gameplay elements would have to be fitted to the story.