Chrono Compendium
Enhasa Halls - Chrono Series Analysis => Lavos, the Planet, and other Entities => Topic started by: DeweyisOverrated on August 07, 2005, 12:57:16 am
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It seems like the Entity is brought up a lot. Pretty much every topic has a mention of "her", tying "her" into the topic either very strongly, or quite vaguely, despite the enormous lack of information we have on "her".
Tons of huge events are tied into the Entity. Some people speculate the only true "plot hole" of Mare disappearing in 600 A.D. is due to the Entity interfering. Some people say Marle disappeared through Lucca's telepod due to the Entity having a say in it. People say the Entity made the gates.
My question is, is there even enough evidence to support that the Entity exists? Here is the only dialogue we have with the Entity in the game:
Robo: I have come to think that
someone, or something wanted us to
see all this.
The different events over time, that
we have witnessed.
It is almost as if some entity wanted
to relive its past.
Frog: Lavos playeth an integral
role in the fortunes of this Entity...
Magus: ...so who is this Entity?
Robo: It is unknown, whose
memories these are. It may be
something beyond our
comprehension.
Our journey may come to an end
when we finally discover the identity
of the Entity.
... ...shall we turn in for the night?
Lucca: Do you remember that talk
we had?
Marle: You mean about whether
our lives flash by before we die?
Lucca: Yeah. I get the feeling that
the «Entity» is finally at rest.
Marle: Yes, I feel that too...
Lucca: I thought Lavos made the
Gates...
But I guess I was wrong.
Marle: What do you mean?
Lucca: I think a greater force
wanted us to experience those
events.
The Entity is brought up quite suddenly, with no real trigger for it. There's no specific hints leading up to it, its just brought up, out of nowhere, on a sidequest. None of them find any more evidence of an entity during the course of the game.
Now, the way I see it is, this was put in to serve as a parallel to how many people think nowadays. Is there a God? Did He put me here, on Earth, for a specific reason? What's the purpose of life?
In my opinion, I don't think there is neccessarily an Entity, but rather, this is just showing how the characters "are jsut like us", in that they don't understand what's going on, why they're the ones doing all of this, and how they're not sure if there's a greater power out there watching over them.[/quote]
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I tend to agree with you... It did seem rather sudden and kind of half-baked for a piece of plot, so I figured that it was probably something just kinda thrown in for that purpose. (Others may notice I have stayed decidedly out of debates/discussions about the Entity, as, like Dewey here, I'm not real sure about the logic that the Entity exists in the game.)
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That's an interesting thought.
I do tend to think the Entity exists, but I also think that it was brought up in that fashion because it's more peripheral in terms of plot. CT, like most RPGs, is full of little mysteries embeded in the dialogue, like the Black Wind; there's no true answer to what these things are unless another sequel is made that tells us, so we're left to speculate.
I don't think there's any definitive canon identity for the Entity (forgive the silly rhyme), but it does make for good speculation. After CC, I'd say I like the Planet explanation best, but I do believe it's completely up to intepretation.
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The Entity is brought up quite suddenly, with no real trigger for it.
Perhaps this is because you forgot to put in all of what Robo said...?
After 400 years of experience, I have come to think that Lavos may not be responsible for the Gates.
I mean, at the Moonlight Parade, Lucca mentions that the Entity is probably at rest now that Lavos is defeated...I think that the Entity is mentioned at the end of the quest has far greater relevence than the fact that it isn't mentioned prior to the 400 Year Reunion...
Also...I don't remember that dialogue after Marle says "Yes, I feel that too..." How do you trigger that other stuff that they say???
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im very much with dewey here, the first time you hear about the entity is through a side-quest, so you can complete the game without ever hearing about it, and apart from what robo and the others say, there is no evidence that is does exist.
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Again, you can say that, but really, how much of a side-quest is it? I mean, looking at the 400 Year Reunion as a sidequest is practically like saying reviving Crono is a sidequest...and if you go that far, you might as well say everything after you have access to the bucket is a sidequest...
I think that what Robo (especially a Robo w/400 years of thinking behind him) & the others say has at least some relevence to the point that the Entity exists...
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reviving the forest isnt a side-quest... but gaspar tells you to either do these things that he points out or go fight lavos, doing the other things barely affects the story in anyway, so they are by definition side-quests, unless they do affect the story significantly which im not aware of.
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Call me circular, but I think the Entity is a bit more than significant.
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The Entity is the Planet. I'm pretty sure it's the Planet dying and seeing it's life flash by, and trying to defend itself. They did the same with FF VII, so why not with CT\CC?
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thats not the point i was trying to raise, but okay, and still, our only physical evidence is a robot's crazy thoughts that took him 400 years of farming to derive.
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Oh yeah, calling Robo crazy and acting as if 400 years of robotic retrospection is nothing totally makes it seem like there's hardly any relevent evidence supporting the Entity at all...:roll:
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Oh yeah, calling Robo crazy and acting as if 400 years of robotic retrospection is nothing totally makes it seem like there's hardly any relevent evidence supporting the Entity at all...:roll:
but robo is crazy isnt he? i mean not crazy, but he "malfunctioned" kinda thing didnt he? when lucca fixed him... and anyway, how reliable are a machines thoughts?
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He's not crazy, he's not even a part of the mother brain generation. He was designed to study humans. Atrapos tells him to kills the humans because Mother Brain installed that feature to all the robots after 1999AD. Robo was knocked out, and Lucca simply tinkered with him to make sure he didn't go rouge on them.
As for the Entity, I tend to not care about it, since it's not really in the game. But if it had to be said, I'd say the Planet, and the Planet is the real power behind fate.
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Not sure how I left the 400 years part out... but even with that it seems rather sudden.
As for the sidequest thing, I'm not arguing that it makes it irrelevant, I just think that if something was supossed to be a huge deal, it would've been in the main plot a little more, as supossed to inside of a single sidequest, and then a small mention at the end of the game.
Also...I don't remember that dialogue after Marle says "Yes, I feel that too..." How do you trigger that other stuff that they say???
I think that if you DON'T do Fiona's sidequest, that's the dialogue that comes up. I'll re-edit it so that its in a separate quote box to clarify a little more. This quote could be interpreted on either side of the argument.
Entity Exists Argument - They said that, because if you didn't do the Fiona sidequest, they want you to know that something else really caused the whole game.
Entity Doesn't exist Argument - Once again, going back to how the developers wanted to create one of those "why are we here? what's the point of life?" type things since you missed it before.
On a side note, I posted this thing at probably 1 am last night, and I wake up at 9:30 and there's already a good amount of discussion about it, I like that.
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Oh, one more thing I forgot. There's nothing about The Entity in Chrono Cross. Now, once again, this doesn't prove "she" doesn't exist. However, I would think that something this big would be explained, or at least expanded upon.
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I think that's because it's more openly just called/refered to as the Planet in CC...no subtleness at all.
There's also the japanese names of the last event "The Final Battle"...which was...oh, does anyone have the actual name? Basically, it was a throwback to the 400 Year Reunion, it was called "Our Planet's Dream" or something or other, which was picked up again in CC's last even title "Our Planet's Dream Isn't Over Yet" or w/e it was called...
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No, it was "The end of our Planet's Dream", which is later picked up by the final title for CC: "For all the Dreamers! Our Planet's dream is not over yet..."
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Oh, one more thing I forgot. There's nothing about The Entity in Chrono Cross. Now, once again, this doesn't prove "she" doesn't exist. However, I would think that something this big would be explained, or at least expanded upon.
that is pretty much the main reason i dont believe there is an entity, trigger barely talks about it, and cross doesnt at all, surely something as important as who/why made crono go on this quest would be very important, and they would elaborate further than they do, or they just want you to think about it for yourself and decide for yourself whether there is an entity and who it is, or they didnt want religous factions having a go at them for making a god character in their game, kinda unlikely but who knows.
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Does the Entity exists? Yes, of course she does. The Entity is the will of the planet, pure and simple.
Did she do all the things that we've credit to her (such as Marles's disappearance in 600 AD)? Probably not. I've always subscribed to the "Temporal Inertia" theory, which has been brought up (and 'debunked') in one of the articles on the main site (though I forget which one now...). Temporal Inertia is the only theory that explains both how Lucca and Crono can remember Marle after she vanishes without a paradox and how Doan could have attended the Moonlight Parade when his entire timeline should have been banished to the Tesseract. I'd go as far to say the Entity can influence Temporal Inertia as she sees fit, but that's about it.
But I'm getting of the subject. Yes, the Entity exists. Without her, Chrono Cross would not have happened... or have we forgotten that it was the planet (aka- The Entity) that brought Dinopolis back in time and from another dimension to deal with Chronopolis? What more proof do you need?
(And on a side not, the argument that just because she was first/only mentioned in a side quest, and therefore cannot have bearing on the overall Chrono series is a fallacy. By that logic, Lunar: Eternal Blue should never have happened since Lucia of the Blue Star was only given one sentence of acknowledgment in the Silver Star Story.)
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(And on a side not, the argument that just because she was first/only mentioned in a side quest, and therefore cannot have bearing on the overall Chrono series is a fallacy. By that logic, Lunar: Eternal Blue should never have happened since Lucia of the Blue Star was only given one sentence of acknowledgment in the Silver Star Story.)
on a note to the rest of your post, fair points, on a note to the quoted article, although im not sure about what you are taking into reference here, i say u may have missed the point, if you havent im gonna make you re-read it in a diferent way anyway so hah.
because there is no necessity for you to hear about the entity in a fully completed game, main storywise, ignoring side quests just do everything that the main story entails you to do. if they do not make you hear of the entity, the entity itself is a mere, side story, so its existence is not (dam whats the word) definete (dam i think of it but cant even spell it). hmm that will do, i give up.
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Whao, wait, the Entity brought back Dinpolis through time? Lavos brought back Chronopolis, and from what I understood, Dinopolis as well (being paralleled to each other and all). Where does it say the Entity brought back Dinopolis?
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It said the Planet brought back Dinopolis to counter-act Chronopolis being brought back.
About this whole side quest thing: What is the main purpose of CT? To defeat Lavos. Thats the main quest. Everything AFTER you get to the End of Time for the first time IS a side quest. You can fight Lavos right there with the bucket. Its possible to level up just fighting monsters and stuff in time periods you have already been to. But we consider EVERYTHING that happens after that part of the story.
For CT's continunity, we consider EVERYTHING, side quests and all, part of the main story. Otherwise, we have no grounds to say what is and what isn't canon with CT's story.
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on a note to the rest of your post, fair points, on a note to the quoted article, although im not sure about what you are taking into reference here, i say u may have missed the point, if you havent im gonna make you re-read it in a diferent way anyway so hah.
I was merely trying to find a common ground - that the entity exists, but may not be responsible for everything that we at the Compendium give her credit for.
because there is no necessity for you to hear about the entity in a fully completed game, main storywise, ignoring side quests just do everything that the main story entails you to do. if they do not make you hear of the entity, the entity itself is a mere, side story, so its existence is not (dam whats the word) definete (dam i think of it but cant even spell it). hmm that will do, i give up.
If the entity does not exists, kindly explain the following:
- The disappearance of Marle in 600 AD (recalling that the Grandfather Paradox does not exits in the Chrono universe)
- The very existence of Gates and the time/places in which they exists through the course of CT.
- How Dinopolis got to 7600 BC.
The fact that it is first mentioned in a side quest is irrelevant. Yes you could finish the game with out ever hearing of the entity, but you could also finish it without brining Crono back - which is arguably a side quest itself. Rather than thinking of Fireside Chat (as I refer to the 400-year reunion) as some kind of appendix to the story, I chose to see it as a reward of extra knowledge for the gamer who bothers to take the time to complete the side quest. Skipping it doesn't take away from the game, but seeing it definitely adds something to it.
Whao, wait, the Entity brought back Dinpolis through time? Lavos brought back Chronopolis, and from what I understood, Dinopolis as well (being paralleled to each other and all). Where does it say the Entity brought back Dinopolis?
During the same part of the game where the orgin of Chronoplis is explaned. It may be Miguel who actulay comes out and says it, I cannot recall right now. It has been a few years since I played the game form start to finish, and I was hopped up on pain killers at thetime (having recently undergone surgery.)
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Apparently, what is called 'the entity' in the American CT wasn't even called by name in the Japanese version, it was always refered as 'someone' or words like that. On the other hand, the planet ('Mother Earth') was mentioned many times by Azala and in some stuff like the names of the chapters (note the obvious similarities to CC).
All of this was changed in CT's American version probably because of censorship (CT too anismist?): the planet isn't mentioned and the name 'entity' was created. Note that it's 'the entity', not even 'the Entity'.
As for the 'relevance' of the 400 Years Reunion, I think it can't be judged as a mere optional side-quests. Else more than half of FF6 and 90% of Valkyrie Profile would be side-quests, too...
Oh, one more thing I forgot. There's nothing about The Entity in Chrono Cross. Now, once again, this doesn't prove "she" doesn't exist. However, I would think that something this big would be explained, or at least expanded upon.
Well, the introduction text in the CC manual is so clear on it that there probably isn't any need to expand upon it again and again in the actual game:
''The dream of our planet once had defeated the darkness and brought forth a brighter future...''
CT states that the dream of the entity is to defeat Lavos, and CC states that the dream of the planet has defeated Lavos, so, who's the entity?
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It said the Planet brought back Dinopolis to counter-act Chronopolis being brought back.
was that not merely because of philosphical/physical laws you have mentioned before. the planet did not think o look chronopolis is being sent back in time lets send dinopolis as well, it was just an automatic thing that occured because it would defeat many laws for it not to.
About this whole side quest thing: What is the main purpose of CT? To defeat Lavos. Thats the main quest. Everything AFTER you get to the End of Time for the first time IS a side quest. You can fight Lavos right there with the bucket. Its possible to level up just fighting monsters and stuff in time periods you have already been to. But we consider EVERYTHING that happens after that part of the story.
ive already said how it is a sidequest, after you resurect crono the next step in the story is to defeat lavos, after you get to the EoT for the first time you there is a reason why you dont go straight to lavos, for one gaspar tells you not to, and secondly the story tells you not to. if you do fight lavos before you resurect crono you are going against the story, if you fight him after resureting crono your merely avoiding sub storylines.
The disappearance of Marle in 600 AD (recalling that the Grandfather Paradox does not exits in the Chrono universe)
you already did that with the intertia theory.
The very existence of Gates and the time/places in which they exists through the course of CT.
for the existence of the gates ive always blamed it on lavos, as for where they take you to, i had a theory on that but ive forgot.
''The dream of our planet once had defeated the darkness and brought forth a brighter future...''
this has been bugging me for a while, what does it mean the dream of the planet?
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First off, I wasn't really trying to argue that the fact that the text mainly takes place inside of a sidequest was THAT relevant. I was mainly putting it out there as just a forerunner to the whole thing.
As for the planet's dream... its really hard to tell exactly what is meant by that. Assuming its responsible for various events in the Chrono universe... is it an actual being? What exactly is it trying to accomplish by setting certain things in motion? What is its ultimate goal?
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It said the Planet brought back Dinopolis to counter-act Chronopolis being brought back.
was that not merely because of philosphical/physical laws you have mentioned before. the planet did not think o look chronopolis is being sent back in time lets send dinopolis as well, it was just an automatic thing that occured because it would defeat many laws for it not to.
When the game actually comes out and tells me "The Planet did X" I'm inclined to beleive it. I'm not sure what laws you are referring to, unless you mean the Conservation of Time Theorem, stating no more than three people can time travel at once. And that has also been explained in another article on the main site. I believe it was the one pertaining to the Dead Sea.
About this whole side quest thing: What is the main purpose of CT? To defeat Lavos. Thats the main quest. Everything AFTER you get to the End of Time for the first time IS a side quest. You can fight Lavos right there with the bucket. Its possible to level up just fighting monsters and stuff in time periods you have already been to. But we consider EVERYTHING that happens after that part of the story.
ive already said how it is a sidequest, after you resurect crono the next step in the story is to defeat lavos, after you get to the EoT for the first time you there is a reason why you dont go straight to lavos, for one gaspar tells you not to, and secondly the story tells you not to. if you do fight lavos before you resurect crono you are going against the story, if you fight him after resureting crono your merely avoiding sub storylines.
Just because a person (in this case, the gamer) is not aware of something doesn't mean it does not exist. Just because one may chose to miss the fire side chat does not invalidate what was discussed in that scene. It just means the player is a crappy gamer who missed things.
The disappearance of Marle in 600 AD (recalling that the Grandfather Paradox does not exits in the Chrono universe)
you already did that with the intertia theory.
Except that I already said the Temporal Inertia theory has already been debunked, since by definition it still applies the Grandfather Paradox, albeit at a less-than-instant rate of effect. The theory is flawed, so it cannot be used as a counter-point. I subscribe to it because it can explain the presence of Doan at the Moonlit Parade, and I am trying to work out the flaws on my own, but so far, I have yet to succeed. It just doesn't work.
[for the existence of the gates ive always blamed it on lavos, as for where they take you to, i had a theory on that but ive forgot.[
Right, because Lavos wants to die at the hands of three kids, a frog, a cavewomn, a robot, and a pissed off wizard. That's why it created the Gates in just the exact times and places that would facilitate its own end. Good point :roll:
EDIT:
As for the planet's dream... its really hard to tell exactly what is meant by that. Assuming its responsible for various events in the Chrono universe... is it an actual being? What exactly is it trying to accomplish by setting certain things in motion? What is its ultimate goal?
The same as all sentient beings: To Live. To Survive.
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[for the existence of the gates ive always blamed it on lavos, as for where they take you to, i had a theory on that but ive forgot.[
Right, because Lavos wants to die at the hands of three kids, a frog, a cavewomn, a robot, and a pissed off wizard. That's why it created the Gates in just the exact times and places that would facilitate its own end. Good point :roll:
It's possible he didn;t do it on purpose. I mean, a guy who exists in his own dimension separate from time crashing into the Earth at God knows how much force is bound to create some sort of after-shock effects outside of their own strict control.
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As a writer, the prospect of dreams goes into my writing.
"The dreams and hopes of a people long so forgotten, broken beneath the fist of their own wishes. The greatest sinners and the mightiest judges."
Their dreams and hopes speak of both their desires to live and survive and the individual desries of each and every one of them. The Planet itself is a living, breathing Lavos-hating thing. It's a life form in it's own right. Like every cell in the human body is considered a living organism, and the body as a whole can be considered an organism, so can the humans, the dwarves, the Mystics and all them Heckrans be considered as indivudal organisms, and the Planet is an individual organism. Therefore, it's reffering to both the wish of the Planet itself to live, and also the wishes of every each and one of the life-forms living there. Remember Gasper says the whole world fights against Lavos: It can mean EVERYONE IN THE WORLD, and it can also mean THE WORLD ITSELF. Both are just as accurate.
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I believe the Entity exists, but we do give her too much credit. I heard someone suggest that Leene's Bell was rung by the Entity. Bull. the Telepod? The Pendant. Marle's vanishing? HERE we go. Entity, cha cha cha. As for all the Time Gates? Yea, sure, Entity. Whatever gets your jive going. There's proof for and against the Entity, just like God. It's all a matter of faith, I guess.
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[for the existence of the gates ive always blamed it on lavos, as for where they take you to, i had a theory on that but ive forgot.[
Right, because Lavos wants to die at the hands of three kids, a frog, a cavewomn, a robot, and a pissed off wizard. That's why it created the Gates in just the exact times and places that would facilitate its own end. Good point :roll:
It's possible he didn;t do it on purpose. I mean, a guy who exists in his own dimension separate from time crashing into the Earth at God knows how much force is bound to create some sort of after-shock effects outside of their own strict control.
Few gates where there originally. The only ones I can think of right off my head were the ones the threw Janus and the Gurus into the future. This was caused by screwing up the Mamon Machine, in combination to Lavos being out of his Pocket Dimension.
The other gates were created later on. There was no Mamon Machine to upset Lavos. Unless you want to believe that all the gates just happend to appear all over, popping up by mere chance, guiding them on their path to defeat Lavos, its safer to safer to say that they were deliberatly created.
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The 65,000,000BC gate would have always been there, in a sence if the entitiy didn't make them.
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the Telepod? The Pendant.
In combination with the entity. Pendant+Telepod didn't create the gate, they just opened them. The Entity created the gate, allowing the pendant+telepod to open it up.
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The Entity speculation also does not appear out of nowhere. It is simply the next evolution of a loong (by CT's standards) piece of speculation and deduction. This is its root:
Marle: Th, there's a Gate!
Lucca: Why is there a Gate here?!
Robo: A Gate has formed!
Frog: 'Tis a Gate?
Ayla: Lavos very fast!
Deep under earth already.
Marle: This Gate was made by
Lavos.
Maybe Lavos is the source of all
Gates?
Lucca: Now I understand!
The immense energy that Lavos
gives off alters time and creates
Gates.
Robo: It appears that the immense
energy that Lavos radiates alters
time and creates Gates.
Frog: M, mayhap Lavos be the
cause of this warp?
The one in Magus's Castle was
immense.
Ayla: What wrong, Crono?
Fight Lavos!
Go in here.
Yes?
The fact that Robo is directly questioning the validity of these earlier claims and proposing a model to exist in its place is serious business by RPG standards, for this reason:
64# Nostradamus Rule
All legends are 100% accurate. All rumors are entirely factual. All prophecies will come true, and not just someday but almost immediately.
While admittedly, this is what makes Lucca's error in citing the Grandfather Paradox so troublesome, it stands that in this world of limited text and NPCs, almost everything that comes out of a person's mouth is true or expands on the plot in some degree. The guy in the Truce Inn who talks about a recent earthquake is a leftover from the Prerelease, but even he's true -- in the Prerelease, Zenan Bridge in modern times had been gutted by a quake. The same goes for the guy who says he saw a monster tearing up Fiona's Forest. At times, these small details provide great insight into the plot; by merely three small utterances in Chrono Cross, we know that Guardia is almost totally back up on its feet (though embroiled in conflict) after the events of 1005 A.D., and may even pose a threat to Porre.
Now, when a player character says something, you know it's important. The argument itself, the Entity proposal, and the line about it resting at the end of the game are too numerous to ignore. Additionally, the Gates are begging intelligent design. They each lead to a tumultuous era in the planet's history - ones that have much to do with Lavos. While it can be inferred that Lavos created the Gates in these eras through this activity, one must ask why Gates exist in 1000 A.D. and in 2300 A.D.? Melchior was thrown to the present age, but Lavos has no direct activity here to create a Gate. Rather, this is the era in which the savior of the planet lives. 2300 A.D. also affords Belthasar and his creations, while Lavos and his temporal energies are dormant as his spawn prepare to leave the earth.
Lastly, the Japanese version should cap the argument. A dareka (someone) does receive much mention in the game, and alongside that is frequent mention (for instance, atop the Tyrano Lair) of a Planet God or Mother Earth Deity. We still don't have that final 1% - a direct linkage of the Entity to the planet god, or a statement that it does exist - but the other 99% more than accounts for it, especially due to the medium - an RPG, in which designers have to pack as much plot as possible in the smallest space given to them.
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2 Things:
1. Anyone ever thought that the pendant caused the reaction because it's connected to Lavos, who's connected in all times. So the pendant just went back to a time where Lavos was summoned (by Magus) or was about to?
2. I hate it when peolpe simply say that the Entity "did it" when theres a casual loop or something.
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The theory of Lavos creating the gates unintentionally, aside from being based on a fair amount of rediculous bad coincidence on Lavos' part, does not account for the Red Gate.
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The theory of Lavos creating the gates unintentionally, aside from being based on a fair amount of rediculous bad coincidence on Lavos' part, does not account for the Red Gate.
that is true, the red gate is a very peculiar phenemon though, it has its own time era which is exactly when lucca desires it to be, you must blame the existence of the gate at least 50% on lucca's powerful desire to go back and save her mum, i always find the entity as just an easy excuse to use for the gates and such, but it does save us trying to think of numerous ways of how such things as the red gate occured.
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I don't see it as an "easy excuse" just the best plausible answer. The easiest solution is often the right one.
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fair point, but what i mean by easy excuse is that it needs almost no explaining, the entity can do what it likes because it IS the ENTITY, so if we say the entity made the gates thats all you need to say.
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Well, the explaining comes from the evidence, the motive, and the plausibility...It's just like a crime! 8)
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theres my point! right there! thats why i hate using the entity as a reason for anything.
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What do you mean? Being the planet, it has the most motive to make the gates, thus having Crono & Co. swing around time, and thus defeat Lavos...Yeah? What has more motive than the planet?
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why dont you think of something wild and extravagant like you usually do :wink: thats always fun.
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He's not thinking complex, you're thinking simpley. Seriously, how stupid can you get? The Planet wants Lavos dead, so it opens Gate. The Planet want Lucca to feel that she didn't fail her mother, so she can become more powerful to defeat Lavos. It's the Planet, period. The game mentions it. You're just so stuck up on your theories your refuse to look at any other theories. Accept the fact you don't know everything. Even if you're right, if everyone says you're wrong and everything points to the point you're wrong, you're wrong. Seriously, you're talking to people who've been thinking this two years.
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Lol.
Personally, I don't like the theory that much. I mean, you may have thought of a theory, but then you think up of others. And then in certain places, they clash. Hence came the Grandfather paradox.
Anyway, I see the Planet as the entity, though I don't think it made all the gates. I think it definatly made the Red Gate. They were talking about the entity just a few moments before it appeared, coincidence?
Gaspar said that by having so many people popping through gates, the time space continuim would be destroyed. I don't think the entity would risk that.
After thinking about what Lavos tried to do with the time crash, I started thinking that the gates were all leading to a time where Lavos had alot of influence, except 1000AD.
65,000,000BC - Lavos lands. Pocket dimension created. Incase Lavos dies and needs a fail safe, he can (for example) drag the FF back to here, had he not left it.
12,000BC- Lavos first appears out of his pocket dimension, starting a new one. This is the new fail safe incase he needs a back up plan.
600AD- Lavos is summoned by Magus, but not out of his pocket dimension. Since this is an important time in Lavos' history, a gate is formed.
1000AD- Gate simply caused by 1. Melchior being gated 2. The pendant reacting with a call back or something through time.
1999AD- A time when Lavos exits his pocket dimension for good, but it's still left open. Since the gate leads to seconds before he comes out, then the gate may have been created during leave of his pocket dimension.
2400AD- This gate may have been caused by the entity for certain reasons, because it wanted to show Crono and co their future.
Thoughts?
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I think 2400 must be close to when the Entity/Planet is truly about to die, since, given what Crono & Co. (uh...minus Crono) talk about in the 400 Year Reunion, the gates are caused by the Entity/Planet reliving it's memories on the brink of death, yes? Plus, in 2400, the human race too is close to extinction...and perhaps would have met it's end had Mother Brain been allowed to carry out its plan...But I think you could also link it to Lavos as being close to when the Lavos Spawns were going to go off in their own directions (perhaps using Death Peak as a launching point).
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yeah i would pretty much agree with that zaper, makes sense to me.
legend of past, you (i mean everyone here by that) rarely say things that will make me change my views, so i have no reason to.
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It's called being a stubborn dumbass. Accept what other people have to say, because you just might be wrong!
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i accept i may be wrong, i also accept i may be right, you dont, in my opinion, my opinion holds more ground to me, so i will stick with believing in it, the second you make my opinion hold less ground to me than yours ill believe in yours.
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No one is really trying (nor should they) to make anyone change their opinions or theories...Everyone should just be stating which 1. make more sense & 2. have more basis. The theories in the Compendium have been talked about for, well, years now, and they represent those theories which make sense and have solid, actual basis.
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the theories that have say 75% complete undabatable physical truth i agree with, i think, the ones that dont, there is no real reason why people should believe in them.
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75% huh...and who makes that figure?
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75% huh...and who makes that figure?
The Reason: Ockham's Razor
'nuff said.
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75% was a just a random number, ockhams razor?
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Ockham's Razor states that if there are multiple answers to a question, the simplest that involves the least thinking of any sort is the most accurate one.
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fair enough, now what was i gonna say here, ive kinda forgot so here goes a load of random mumbling:
i get your point the entity is the only explanation that fills all the holes, so to say, but although any other theory is much less likely i personally cannot and will not believe there is an entity until you physically see it or its definite effect, it goes against all my personal beliefs, so no, cant do it.
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fair enough, now what was i gonna say here, ive kinda forgot so here goes a load of random mumbling:
i get your point the entity is the only explanation that fills all the holes, so to say, but although any other theory is much less likely i personally cannot and will not believe there is an entity until you physically see it or its definite effect, it goes against all my personal beliefs, so no, cant do it.
So basically, even though there is a VERY strong implication that the Entity does exist, and it would explain MANY events throughout the series, you refuse to believe it because you never see it?
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erm, no thats not what i said, thankyou for proving one of two things (maybe more)
1) you only read the bits of what i say that interest yourself.
2) you dont understand english.
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~Stans between Sentenal and Kazmaka~
Okay, you two, break up the fight. I hate seeing hate and flaming growing in the Compendium.
Sentenal, as much as I understand how you feel (Really, REALLY, I do), please cease this fighting. Let him have his own ideas of the series. If he wants to think there's an entirely different explanation to anything, let him do what he wants. Just ignore him. Completly.
Kazmaka, you know how Harle says in CC that if everyone and everything states Serge is Lynx except himself, he is Lynx? Well, there's something similar here. If it's never been stated before, call it Legend's Razor. If everyone and everything except yourself point that you're wrong, you ARE wrong.
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1) you only read the bits of what i say that interest yourself.
2) you dont understand english.
I'm just gonna giggle at the irony here.
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1) you only read the bits of what i say that interest yourself.
2) you dont understand english.
I'm just gonna giggle at the irony here.
Yeah, me too. I'll just ignore this guys posts. Its not like hes says anything worth while anyway.
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i get your point the entity is the only explanation that fills all the holes, so to say, but although any other theory is much less likely i personally cannot and will not believe there is an entity until you physically see it or its definite effect, it goes against all my personal beliefs, so no, cant do it.
And again I say: The presence of Dinopolis in 7600 BC is all the proof you need. The game tells you, in no uncertain terms, that the planet brought it back, and we can all agree that if the entity does exists, it is the planet, right?
And if a ten-year-old old 16-bit game can violate all your ‘personal beliefs’, you might want to re-evaluate the strength of said beliefs.
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2. I hate it when peolpe simply say that the Entity "did it" when theres a casual loop or something.
Yeah. Considering we've used that explanation a whopping total of 1 times.
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...Which would be the one thing our sciencetific theories coulden't prove. Like in religion, if you don't believe science did it, you can believe God did it. And don't start mocking things like that. I'll get the desire to beat you to a bloody pulp if you would.
And if a ten-year-old old 16-bit game can violate all your ‘personal beliefs’, you might want to re-evaluate the strength of said beliefs.
It's 32 Bit, but that's not the point here. If you think the game dosen't match your beliefs, just say: "I don't get this game" and be rid of this otherwise wortless waste of time. You may not like the game, but some people understand that it needs to be analyzed without considering your beliefs so much. If you believe in God, you can say that the entity is God. If you believe in science, you can say it's some sort of alien life-form. But there's no need to say that if defies your beliefs as such. Just because it defies your beliefs, dosen't mean it dosen't make sense to someone else. Or in your case, anybody else.
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1) you only read the bits of what i say that interest yourself.
2) you dont understand english.
I'm just gonna giggle at the irony here.
explain to me why.
And again I say: The presence of Dinopolis in 7600 BC is all the proof you need. The game tells you, in no uncertain terms, that the planet brought it back, and we can all agree that if the entity does exists, it is the planet, right?
so you know that the planet thought, o look chronopolis has been pulled back, lets have a good laugh and bring dinopolis back too.
And if a ten-year-old old 16-bit game can violate all your ‘personal beliefs’, you might want to re-evaluate the strength of said beliefs.
thankyou for calling everyone in this forum a 10 year old, and why would that mean i should re-evaulaute my beliefs, legend imagine a game which said it is absolutely impossible for a god in any way to exist ever, would you go along with that theory? for me the theory of an entity that you can never interact with is ridicolous.
and if that idea doesnt float your boat, then imagine the camp scene a little diferent, robo says he thinks there is an entity, instead of everyone agreeing, they disagree and call his idea riduculous, he has no evidence and can get no evidence there is an almighty entity leading them on so his theory is not worth thinking about, would you not think, pfft these guys are just fools? or would you see yeah that sounds fine to me?
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Ah, so much stupid...so little time...let's see if I can't work it in bits, shall we?
First, the most obvious mistakes...
And if a ten-year-old old 16-bit game can violate all your ‘personal beliefs’, you might want to re-evaluate the strength of said beliefs.
It's 32 Bit, but that's not the point here.
thankyou for calling everyone in this forum a 10 year old
Silvercry is obviously talking about Chrono Trigger in that part of his post. See how Chrono Trigger is both 10 YEARS OLD (not in reference to anyone in the forum!) and how it's 16-Bit? Yeah...I guess I can see how you might miss it cause he was talking about CC at first...but still, misinterpreting that 10 year old thing seems rediculous...
1) you only read the bits of what i say that interest yourself.
2) you dont understand english.
I'm just gonna giggle at the irony here.
explain to me why.
I'm going to pick this one up for ya Aura...by using another oddly ironic quote from the 'kaz-man'...
why dont you think of something wild and extravagant like you usually do :roll: thats always fun.
And that was actually directed at me! Can you believe it? Okay...well anyways...I'm done for now...It seems like I did my fair share of quoting!
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that was not directed at you, it was wasnt directed, fine i missed the point about the 10 year old, easy to make when all you get is abuse from you people.
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A good 32 game bit that's ten-years-old can cause everyone on an entire forum turn against a stubborn user? Behold the power of Chrono Trigger.
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btw legend i think u missed this bit of my post so ill say it again, must of edited after you read it, or i edited the wrong post, cant even remember what i was doing
and if that idea doesnt float your boat, then imagine the camp scene a little diferent, robo says he thinks there is an entity, instead of everyone agreeing, they disagree and call his idea riduculous, he has no evidence and can get no evidence there is an almighty entity leading them on so his theory is not worth thinking about, would you not think, pfft these guys are just fools? or would you see yeah that sounds fine to me?
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Uh...what is that even in reference to? Because it doesn't really make any sense as is...
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No, we'd actually consider Robo's theory, but agree that it sound a bit absurd. Why? Because WE believe there is an entity out there pulling the strings. It makes sense to us, dosen't it? Plus, not everything should be blamed on Lavos. Espically with Cross constantly poiting at the Planet as a living thing with loads of power itself.
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Well I dont believe their is an entity, as i said, robo's theory sounds absurd to me. Your not gonna tell a christian he/she shoudlnt believe in God because you think its stupid, and not many people would tell someone to believe in God because the idea there isnt a God is absurd to them.
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Well I dont believe their is an entity, as i said, robo's theory sounds absurd to me. Your not gonna tell a christian he/she shoudlnt believe in God because you think its stupid, and not many people would tell someone to believe in God because the idea there isnt a God is absurd to them.
Hmm, there is something off about this statement, let me just figure it out... 1 sec...
Ok, I have one question for you. Why would the developers put that whole scene in there if the theory is bunk (bunk=not true)? It seems to me like a total waste of time, since that is basically the major point of Fiona's Sidequest. Sure you can save Lucca's Mom from the leg eater, but thats not even a garuntee. The point of that sidequest is for Robo t point out that theory. And plus even IF you don't do that sidequest at all, Lucca rementions the theory at the end of the game.
Lucca: I thought Lavos made the
Gates...
But I guess I was wrong.
Marle: What do you mean?
Lucca: I think a greater force
wanted us to experience those
events.
Whether you want to believe it or not, the game mentions the theory no matter what. If you don't want to believe that, you might as well stop believing anything in the game that is not fully explained.
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thankyou for calling everyone in this forum a 10 year old, and why would that mean i should re-evaulaute my beliefs, legend imagine a game which said it is absolutely impossible for a god in any way to exist ever, would you go along with that theory? for me the theory of an entity that you can never interact with is ridicolous.
Well, in Xenogears, you in effect, kill 'God'. 'He' is the final boss. And you know what? I was fine with that, as were a bunch of my Christian friends.
And my point to suggesting that you should re-evaluate you own beliefs is this:
Chrono Trigger and its (in my opinion, inferior) sequel Chrono Cross are great games. But in the end, that is all they are: mere video games. Fictional, somewhat interactive tales, a digital version of those old choose your own adventure books I used to read when I was a kid. Entertainment, nothing more. As such, why would a fictional tale bother your core beliefs so much? I’m not Christian, but I thoroughly enjoy the Left Behind series of books, even though according to them, I’m going to hell. On the flipside, I am wiccan, however I also enjoy the Harry Potter books/movies, even though they pervert just about everything I hold as sacred when it comes to the subject of magick (and that spelling was intentional). How is such as thing possible? Because I am confident enough in my beliefs that the fictional works of a couple pf preachers (the authors of Left Behind), some British twit (J.K. Rollings, author of Harry Potter), or a room filled with Japanese script writers (responsible for the plot for Trigger and Cross) cannot shake them. The same cannot be said for you, since by your own words:
i personally cannot and will not believe there is an entity until you physically see it or its definite effect, it goes against all my personal beliefs, so no, cant do it.
Thusly, I can only conclude, that your are not confident in your beliefs. Therefore, you should re-evaluate them.
And again I say: The presence of Dinopolis in 7600 BC is all the proof you need. The game tells you, in no uncertain terms, that the planet brought it back, and we can all agree that if the entity does exists, it is the planet, right?
so you know that the planet thought, o look chronopolis has been pulled back, lets have a good laugh and bring dinopolis back too.
Yeah, pretty much. Only the thought was more like: “Curses! My age-old foe, whom I thought I had bested at long last, has called his champion race to his aid at the height of their power (Humans, and their future city of Chronopolis). All I have done shall be for naught (ie: all the events of Chrono Trigger) unless I act swiftly! And behold! I see the future as it should have been! The Reptites evolved into a race every bit the equal of humans! What is more, they understand and respect the world they live on, the physical manifestation of my very self! I will call these great beings to my aid. I can only hope it will be enough…”
Seriously, did you even play this game? C’mom man, I was on pain killers when I played Chrono Cross, and even I got the message clearly when I wasn’t marveling at the trails I was seeing every time a character moved (slight exaggeration, but you get my point).
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Her name is Rowling, not Rollings. But that's besides the point.
I am confident enough in my beliefs that the fictional works of a couple pf preachers (the authors of Left Behind), some British twit (J.K. Rollings, author of Harry Potter), or a room filled with Japanese script writers (responsible for the plot for Trigger and Cross) cannot shake them.
Amen to that.
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Her name is Rowling, not Rollings. But that's besides the point.
I stand corrected. Thank you for point out my error.
Hey, did you all see that? A mistake was made, it was then pointed out, and the correction was graciously accepted. Better not let this get out, we might break the internet.
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Her name is Rowling, not Rollings. But that's besides the point.
I stand corrected. Thank you for point out my error.
Hey, did you all see that? A mistake was made, it was then pointed out, and the correction was graciously accepted. Better not let this get out, we might break the internet.
Yes, kazmaka. As big a shock as it might be to you, no one knows everything. Accept the knowledge, experience and opinions of others with an open-mind, so each of us could at least come close to knowing everything!
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Expanding upon what Silvercry said earlier:
Yeah, the Chrono Series is nothing but two (three) video games. No one's asking you to modify your religious beliefs because of this game. By the same token, you shouldn't believe something about the game because your own religion says so. We're talking about what we believe to be true about the stories within the Chrono Series. The series has nothing to do with your religion.
I personally, believe in God, and that He is the only one. That doesn't mean I'm gonna turn around and say, "Well, there's only one God, so that means there can't possibly be more than one god in Chrono Trigger, and don't tell me to believe otherwise." People can correct me or gives me evidence against my beliefs on the GAME, and at the same time have the comments be completly separate about what I believe outside of the game.
And thanks to the intelligent conversations in this topic, after posting it originally, I have come to somewhat reverse my original opinion about the entity.
- That the planet's "dreams" have some kind of effect on what's going on, sometimes directly, more often indirectly.
- The entity doesn't explain the things we can't.
As opposed to my original one, which is tha the entity doesn't exist at all.
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For works of Fiction, one must take the elements of the story within the context that it is Fiction. I personally don't believe in evolution, yet that is apparent in these games, so within the context of the Chrono Series, evolution does work. But it doesn't shake my views of the real world. If you don't believe in God in the real world, yet it is apparent in the Chrono series, a God does exist within the context of the Chrono series. It is fiction, take it as what it is.
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YOU DON'T BELIEVE IN EVOLUTION!? Man. I'm a diehard pro-evolutionist. Have you ever taken a higher level bio class or anything that taught more than the universal misunderstandings about it (i.e. those posters showing man growing from an ape)?
I mean, you can't say natural selection isn't true (a huge part of evolution) you can see it in your own lifetime!
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I believe in evolution, but you'd be surprised how well the anti-evolution arguments can hold up. (I don't know waht you guys call yourselves, so forgive the "harsh" term).
For example, they brought up the point about whales. Now, evolutionists would argue that whales evolved from dogs that lived byt he water for long periods of time. Their "proof" is that a) whales have lungs, not gills and b) there's a "hip bone" where legs used to be attached to, but is now useless. Anti-evolutionists argue that the "hipbone" wasn't for that at all, that really its a point for the large tail muscles to attach to for support.
There were tons of other really cool and interesting arguments, but I can't remember them. Very, very, very interesting, though.
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Save personal comments to each other in PMs...and/or save evolution comments in a seperate thread (I'm guessing General, but I suppose you could work it into the Chrono series...depending on how you go about it).
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Lets not argue evolution here...
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Yeah, it'll go on forever. Espcially with Kazmaza around.
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"Ur both wrong! Life was created by Devolution! We were all super-ebolved Deities like the Zealiens unteel we fell from god and liek....turned into chimpanZ's. LOL"
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Good impression Aura, but your grammar was a little too precise for his style.
Yeah sorry to go off about evolution and get people started on that.
And dewey, the hip bone you're talkign about is called a vestige organ or a vestige body part. Does anyone want to talk about this elsewhere? Or does anyone just not care anymore?
And V_T I've seen evolution come up A LOT here. It's usually about reptites, demi-humans, and FF interaction though. Nothing like what our theories are.
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Eh. I'm a professional novelist, sue me. It's hard to type like a n00b, it really is.
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Eh. I'm a professional novelist, sue me. It's hard to type like a n00b, it really is.
Same here, and I completly agree.
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I'm actually generally interested in evolution. I'll gladly talk about it elsewhere outside of this thread. However, like someone before me said, evolution isn't a pointless subject in terms of the Chono series, its actually a pretty big part of it.
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Eh. I'm a professional novelist, sue me. It's hard to type like a n00b, it really is.
Same here, and I completly agree.
Likewise. Well, not the novelist thing - I hope to be some day - but rather the care to write correctly. Although, thinking about it, I have been writing so ever since I first was a noob, so I never really was noobish, per say. I also have a certain wish to write a more formal style into what I write, so that aids me in it, though I think that may be slipping somewhat, and I'm becoming ever more colloquial in my speech.
By the way, a novelist? Aren't you only 15?
(Oh, and by the way... the devolution comment was really quite funny.)
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Well, I'm just as much as a novelist as you are. I'd just like to think of it as a passion, not a hobby. I hope to have that as a side job (You know, work at something, write in my free time, then publish it), and all this is merely practice for me. In two years I might very well complete Enderon, but in ten years from now I'll probably completely rewrite it!
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I don't think we should bother talking about evolution just yet. I have seen all the arguing coming from things such as "how come humans took so long to learn magic whereas monsters that make their first appearances in 12,000 BC (i.e. Mud Imp) learn magic by 600 AD?"
Those things will probably be tackled in the magic article being composed. Or should be, maybe I'll throw my 2 cents in over there.
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Well, most of the magic using humans who were innates were taken out in the fall of Zeal. The Mystics never had a population crisis like that.
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That might not necessarily explain it though. Zeal wiped out most of its inhabitants, but not all. There were some people still roaming around, and didn't they state that they're magic was gone due to not being around the Mammon Machine anymore? So really, humans never really DID learn magic.
(I might be mixing up a few diferent things here).
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Only the regular Zealians lost thier power, because they relied soley on the mammon machine for thier magic. Dalton still kept his magic, and the group certainly never needed the mammon machine for thier power.
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Only the regular Zealians lost thier power, because they relied soley on the mammon machine for thier magic. Dalton still kept his magic, and the group certainly never needed the mammon machine for thier power.
Yeah well we can't count the group because they learned their magic from Spekkio some 13,000 years later. And when I say humans didn't really learn magic, I mean in general, as a whole. Only a select few did.
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To be even more technical, it was way more than 13,000 years, since it was at the End of Time.
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Well, most of the magic using humans who were innates were taken out in the fall of Zeal. The Mystics never had a population crisis like that.
I was just wondering, since it comes up every now and then, how the monsters became mystics, not how they kept their powers because I understand the difference between them and the circumstances in Zeal.
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To be even more technical, it was way more than 13,000 years, since it was at the End of Time.
Is the End of Time really the EoT? I never really thought it as a particular time period, I kind of thought it was just separate. Like I never thought it was, ok right now its 4,000 A.D., next year its the EoT.
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Yeah it can't actually be a year. Time is infinite. The EoT is just a spot outside time to view everything that happens.
I am sorry that I must simply
witness the coming spectacle from
my vantage point here...
That makes me believe its not a point in time just a place outside it. Basically, exactly what Gaspar said.
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Well, apparently there is an End of Time. Since, it's the End of Time o.o;; Granted, time goes on forever, and the End of Time is labelled with an infinity symbol, but since Gaspar and Spekkio are there, it's obviously a point in time. Y'know, since you accessed with a Time Gate n'all.
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Gate's aren't neccessary "GATES". They can be "WARPS". The End of Time is where everything is still in the environment. Only someone else being there (like Gaspar) can judge if there is time or not. If he builds that whole little island, then in his mind, it may take like 1 month of what 1 month was back in Zeal.
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What is the End of Time? Let's ask Gaspar...
When 4 or more beings step
into a time warp, the Conservation
of Time theorem states that they
will turn up...
...at the space-time coordinates of
least resistance.
Here (the End of Time).
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What better place for the time-space continuum to be weakest but where time ends?
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The Beyond Time article has the best definition of it.
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I have this idea that FATE, or maybe even Schala was the Entity. FATE was sent in the past to prevent specific things from happening after all. Maybe it was FATE manipulating time, as stated by Belthesar? Or it could even be Schala. We only have vague details of what happened to her in Chrono Cross, and what connections she has to that story. Maybe Schala was behind all of the events in Chrono Trigger?
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All of this makes me think about how humans evolved from apes via contact with Lavos. If the planet was trying to get rid of Lavos, then wouldn't it get rid of humans as well? They're both aliens to the planet.
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FATE can't be the Entity, because FATE was created after the events of CT, after the future is saved. Schala can't be the entity, it doesn't make any sense?
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Just because something doesn't make sense to us straight away doesn't mean it is beyond possibility. Though I see your point, FATE inevitably was created and the threads of time were weaved to deem it so.. what Crono and his crew did inevitably was "the" future. I can understand what you feel about Schala though. It's not very clear.
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Well, there isn't any facts in favor of Schala being the entity, so why would you even think that?
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Since Schala is thought to be one of the ones orchestrating the events of Chrono Cross, and since she is in the Tesseract, she has access to every timeline, every dimension.
One could argue that Chrono Trigger and Chrono Cross happen simultaneously. If that's true, then Schala is able to change events in both adventures.
I don't think Schala is the entity, but that's just my way of trying to explain the notion.
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Since Schala is thought to be one of the ones orchestrating the events of Chrono Cross, and since she is in the Tesseract, she has access to every timeline, every dimension.
One could argue that Chrono Trigger and Chrono Cross happen simultaneously. If that's true, then Schala is able to change events in both adventures.
I don't think Schala is the entity, but that's just my way of trying to explain the notion.
Actually, it is not Schala, but Belthesar that is thought to be, and proven to be, orchestrating the events. The only aid she lends is the creation of her clone during the famed storm that swept Serge to Chronopolis in his youth. Other than this, the only other influences she has is in that she rescues Serge in his youth, splitting the dimensions: but she does this from a future time, presumably after she was saved, and acting in accordance with Belthesar. So he is the one orchestrating it, yet is not the Entity.
The thing is, the Entity is the planet, short and simple. Personally, I would like it to be God, but that, I know full well, is not the intent. When the Entity is first mentioned (and is this not the only time?) in the forest of south Zenan, it is mentioned that all these things, these time periods, that they saw, were perhaps the death-sights of a dying Entity, like the life flashing before one's eyes. Now, Schala had nothing to do with 65mil BC, so that rules her out. In fact, it rules out everyone but the Planet and Lavos. Presumably, Lavos would not orchestrate his own destruction. Thus this leaves only the Planet which, I must point out, ties in with the very apparent overall theme of environmentalism, shown once again in the end of CC. There is speaks of all things on this world being a dream of the Planet. Thus the Planet is what it all revolves around. Seriously, as much as I've wished to believe otherwise, I can see no other true explanation.
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Since Schala is thought to be one of the ones orchestrating the events of Chrono Cross, and since she is in the Tesseract, she has access to every timeline, every dimension.
One could argue that Chrono Trigger and Chrono Cross happen simultaneously. If that's true, then Schala is able to change events in both adventures.
I don't think Schala is the entity, but that's just my way of trying to explain the notion.
The DBT is simply the collecting places of discarded timelines. Everything in there is frozen in time. The only reason the TD isn't is because Schala was teleported there, not via being discarded.
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Since Schala is thought to be one of the ones orchestrating the events of Chrono Cross, and since she is in the Tesseract, she has access to every timeline, every dimension.
One could argue that Chrono Trigger and Chrono Cross happen simultaneously. If that's true, then Schala is able to change events in both adventures.
I don't think Schala is the entity, but that's just my way of trying to explain the notion.
In the Tesseract, she can't have access to every timeline or dimension. It is not exactally frozen like Sentenal said. All the disgarded timelines and dimensions are there. That is why they were able to be extracted (The Dead Sea) through the dimensional distortions. It's like a full rubbish bin. Lavos started pulling a metaphorical string that Chronopolis was connected to to get it back in time. By doing that, the bin moved backwards a little. When Lavos failed to get it to where he wanted, Chronopolis was released of the string, and the rubbish bin ricocheted and the Dead Sea went to the area where Chronopolis before (after the first TimeCrash obviousally).
Well anyway, thing's in the tesseract aren't frozen. Just stored and untouched. Everything in those dimensions in the tesseract does not have life or a soul, until they are put back into a timeline, etc. Lavos was supposed to be discarded, but did not freeze. Schala was gated to the Tesseract and was being used by Lavos..
What Schala was able to do was use her power to try and open the link at Angelus Arrore (I think that's what it's called, I forgot) which was the weakest point in the dimensions because of Serge and whatever, tried escaping by heard Serge's crying and led him to Chronopolis.
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Actually, it is not Schala, but Belthesar that is thought to be, and proven to be, orchestrating the events. The only aid she lends is the creation of her clone during the famed storm that swept Serge to Chronopolis in his youth. Other than this, the only other influences she has is in that she rescues Serge in his youth, splitting the dimensions: but she does this from a future time, presumably after she was saved, and acting in accordance with Belthesar. So he is the one orchestrating it, yet is not the Entity.
Kid was created in 1,004 AD while the storm was in 1,006 AD. Actually, some people believe that Schala created Kid without any consideration of Belthasar or Serge (it is stated that she did so only because her/Lavos's dark side was becoming dominant), and that it was only much later that Belthasar discovered Kid's existence and Schala's fate. That would explain why Project Kid is named Project Kid too.
Anyway, it wasn't Schala that saved Serge from drowning, it was Kid, in the future "of the time-line without Serge going to the DBT".
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Exactally.
1. Schala DID save Serge. When he was young, he neally died from the panthar demon, and was sent to Chronopolis by Schala's interferance.
She could not save him again in the future though, when Lynx handled it.
2. It was said that Kid was created in the Tesseract just moments before the storm happened. Schala threw Kid out through it, and Kid's pendant sent her 2 year's back for Lucca.
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1. It's why I said "saved from drowning".
2. Here what the Lucca ghost says:
(...)
This caused a raging magnetic
storm that resulted in FATE's
system malfunction, which led
Serge to the Frozen Flame.
Yes, Serge...
The sound of your crying
touched the heart of
Princess Schala...
Before the destructive mind-
set could become dominant,
she cloned herself and sent
her copy into this dimension.
Schala left her baby
daughter-clone with her
ancient pendant, possessing
magical powers.
This was to safeguard her
daughter-clone in life-and-
death situations.
The pendant would rewind
time a little, sending her
daughter-clone into a safer
point in the immediate past.
The pendant rewinds time just "a little", sending her into "the immediate" past... I don't know if 2 whole years can be considered immediate past... So either:
1. Kid's creation has no relation to the storm event
2. Schala made the storm then created Kid afterwards (after in terms of causality, although in the past in terms of time)
3. or Kid wasn't born in 1,004 AD but actually in 1,006 AD (I think some people believe this).
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Yeah, Well since that quote about Kid goes right after about the storm event, im pretty sure Kid was sent out during it. There pretty much is no other stated time when this could have happened. Schala had one chance when she reached out for Serge.
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I always figured the Tesseract was outside of time itself and given Schala's powers, she could affect the timestream because she wasn't part of it.
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Well yeah. Well, In a way. The DBT is a dimension that has all the disgarded time lines. Schala would have to reach out of the DBT to Another/Home world to do anything, and she had to do it fast because Lavos was corrupting her.
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Since Schala is thought to be one of the ones orchestrating the events of Chrono Cross, and since she is in the Tesseract, she has access to every timeline, every dimension.
One could argue that Chrono Trigger and Chrono Cross happen simultaneously. If that's true, then Schala is able to change events in both adventures.
I don't think Schala is the entity, but that's just my way of trying to explain the notion.
In the Tesseract, she can't have access to every timeline or dimension. It is not exactally frozen like Sentenal said. All the disgarded timelines and dimensions are there. That is why they were able to be extracted (The Dead Sea) through the dimensional distortions. It's like a full rubbish bin. Lavos started pulling a metaphorical string that Chronopolis was connected to to get it back in time. By doing that, the bin moved backwards a little. When Lavos failed to get it to where he wanted, Chronopolis was released of the string, and the rubbish bin ricocheted and the Dead Sea went to the area where Chronopolis before (after the first TimeCrash obviousally).
Well anyway, thing's in the tesseract aren't frozen. Just stored and untouched. Everything in those dimensions in the tesseract does not have life or a soul, until they are put back into a timeline, etc. Lavos was supposed to be discarded, but did not freeze. Schala was gated to the Tesseract and was being used by Lavos..
Are you saying that Time still progresses in the DBT? The reason I say "no" is because it is disconnected from the main time flow, discarded. The is one huge timeline running, but with different branchs of dimension on it, such as reptite, home, and another. They flow, because they are part of the timeline. Discarded ones do not, because they are not part of it anymore.
And technically, its impossible for something discarded in the Terreract to naturally come back into the timeline. Even the dead sea, which was a destroyed future, wasn't the exact same destroyed future as the one prior to Chrono defeating Lavos. It was slightly different, practically the same, but not. It just so happend to progress very similar to the original one.
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Since Schala is thought to be one of the ones orchestrating the events of Chrono Cross, and since she is in the Tesseract, she has access to every timeline, every dimension.
One could argue that Chrono Trigger and Chrono Cross happen simultaneously. If that's true, then Schala is able to change events in both adventures.
I don't think Schala is the entity, but that's just my way of trying to explain the notion.
In the Tesseract, she can't have access to every timeline or dimension. It is not exactally frozen like Sentenal said. All the disgarded timelines and dimensions are there. That is why they were able to be extracted (The Dead Sea) through the dimensional distortions. It's like a full rubbish bin. Lavos started pulling a metaphorical string that Chronopolis was connected to to get it back in time. By doing that, the bin moved backwards a little. When Lavos failed to get it to where he wanted, Chronopolis was released of the string, and the rubbish bin ricocheted and the Dead Sea went to the area where Chronopolis before (after the first TimeCrash obviousally).
Well anyway, thing's in the tesseract aren't frozen. Just stored and untouched. Everything in those dimensions in the tesseract does not have life or a soul, until they are put back into a timeline, etc. Lavos was supposed to be discarded, but did not freeze. Schala was gated to the Tesseract and was being used by Lavos..
ZeaLitY once said something interesting - or at least I believe it was he - and that is that time does indeed flow in the Tesseract, but rather perpendicular to normal time. Thus, if one takes a linear coordinate system defined by our knowledge of time, it does indeed seem to be halted. But this is like looking at a piece of paper from the edge-side and saying it is a line, rather than the plane it is. It does not account for the other dimensions.
Are you saying that Time still progresses in the DBT? The reason I say "no" is because it is disconnected from the main time flow, discarded. The is one huge timeline running, but with different branchs of dimension on it, such as reptite, home, and another. They flow, because they are part of the timeline. Discarded ones do not, because they are not part of it anymore.
And technically, its impossible for something discarded in the Terreract to naturally come back into the timeline. Even the dead sea, which was a destroyed future, wasn't the exact same destroyed future as the one prior to Chrono defeating Lavos. It was slightly different, practically the same, but not. It just so happend to progress very similar to the original one.
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No Comment?
@Sentenal:
I had always thought that time in the DBT was just waaaaay slower than our time. I mean like the DBT is a dimension of it's own, and inside the dimension are all these disgarded time lines that are just floating around and Schala and Lavos cannot access them, but Lavos could use them as information.
What I was trying to say is that because the DBT is a dimension, Schala had to use like the place where the Angelus Arrare point was going to be to get through the dimensions, since that looks like the weakest point anyway. I never said she could acctually enter time lines Oo. Maybe just Dimensions with time lines.
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Is there actual proof that time actually runs slower in the DBT? From what I'm understanding, the only evidence is that "oh well it'd be way too long for Schala to hold out for 13,000+ years, so it must be going slower than that."
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I think daniel made a bit of an error in his post. I didn't say this, and it sounds like him:
ZeaLitY once said something interesting - or at least I believe it was he - and that is that time does indeed flow in the Tesseract, but rather perpendicular to normal time. Thus, if one takes a linear coordinate system defined by our knowledge of time, it does indeed seem to be halted. But this is like looking at a piece of paper from the edge-side and saying it is a line, rather than the plane it is. It does not account for the other dimensions.
Anyway...
Miguel said something about Time standing still, but I forget the exact quote, or if its even relavant.
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I believe the entity really does exist because the entity is really Schala and the time devourer keep in mind that Magus does not end up finding Schala because she has already merged with it.
Go release the person who is inprisoned. Bethasaur
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I believe the entity really does exist because the entity is really Schala and the time devourer keep in mind that Magus does not end up finding Schala because she has already merged with it.Go release the person who is inprisoned. Bethasaur
THe time egg has the ability to break the bonds of time. Bethasaur
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WTF.... Schala isn't the entity. She's most likely a past arbiter.
I've started thinking about this, And I don't think that the Planet was actually the entity that created the gates. I'm starting to think now that it was the planets dream, but a greater force than it caused the gates to open up, and summon Dinopolis in from the other dimension.
The Planet was never stated as the entity in CT.... There is no stated entity in CC.... But we know that what's going on is as if it's the planets dream....
For one, in the time line that Crono is in, it should be impossible for the planet if it was the entity to create timegates or interfer in any way. Why? The planet had lost over 65,0000,000 years of energy thanks to Lavos, who used it up fighting Crono and co. The planet has no way of getting it back, but can regenerate over time into the future. Because it's a bit limp. I do not believe that the planet itself could have possibly summoned Dinopolis itself. It's like saying that the Earth is acctually sentinel, which would mean it would need some sort of incarnation, and it should have done that to stop Lavos itself. If the planet has enough energy to summon Dinopolis out of a dimension, causing it to be the missing piece for those dimension, the planet should have been able to handle Lavos by itself.
Lets say that Zurvan did it :P
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Because it's a bit limp. I do not believe that the planet itself could have possibly summoned Dinopolis itself. It's like saying that the Earth is acctually sentinel, which would mean it would need some sort of incarnation, and it should have done that to stop Lavos itself. If the planet has enough energy to summon Dinopolis out of a dimension, causing it to be the missing piece for those dimension, the planet should have been able to handle Lavos by itself.
Uh.....no.
Since when does the Planet need an avatar to be sentient? And Lavos probably has something protecting it from the Planet's power. A basic survival technique for his race, assuming all planets are sentient like Earth.
-
So do you really think that the Earth would have like a face or something? You look from outside of space and you can see eyes and a nose? Everytime theres an Earth quake, the Earth is smiling? Pfft.
It was an example if it was sentient. We don't know. These flashbacks could have been truely because it was already on the brink of death. I'd probably think that if Lavos isn't sentient, then the planet isn't either, and it's simply a survival thing.
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So do you really think that the Earth would have like a face or something? You look from outside of space and you can see eyes and a nose? Everytime theres an Earth quake, the Earth is smiling? Pfft.
It was an example if it was sentient. We don't know. These flashbacks could have been truely because it was already on the brink of death. I'd probably think that if Lavos isn't sentient, then the planet isn't either, and it's simply a survival thing.
True. In most myths, such ancient beings as Gaia have no anthropomorphic representation.
However, I would still think that it is near certain that the planet is the Entity, as it is almost explicitly stated as such in CT. The only conversation in which this term entity is used is CT in the forest scene. There Ayla likens the times and gates they have seen to the flashbacks of someone on the verge of death, and theorizes that some thing wanted them to see all this, as if they were important points in its life, being remembered at death. Only in connection to this is the Entity ever mentioned. Thus, if there even IS an Entity, it must be that it has these properties, namely that it is on the verge of death, and these times are important to it. Now, the only two things that fulfill this last are Lavos and the Earth. In each Lavos arose, causing peril and injury to the Earth. But only the Earth is in danger of death. Thus these are its flashbacks, its death throes. I think any other possibility very unlikely.
Oh, and in a belated reply to Sentenal... yes, I believe that was me that said that, and that I made a mistake in my posting. Who else, after all, would say 'edge-side' in that manner?
-
Earth doesn't have to have a face or avatar to be sentient. Examples of nonanthropomorphized sentient life forms would include:
Morganna from .hack//sign.
XANA from Code Lyoko.
The Complete Philosopher's Stone from FullMetal Alchemist.
Excalibur from the Tales of Merlin.
Epoch.
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Remember that in anthropomorphic I mean not only not appear as a human, but not even having the same way of thinking as a human being.
I would say such a term is better represented by such things as Tiamat in old Babylonian, Chaos, Gaia, Eros, and Tartaros in Greek, and so forth.
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ffix gaia or terra doesnt have an anthorororormorphic figure as well...just to let you know
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Maybe because Square doesn't like having their games have that shit. Maybe as I suggested, theres an entity outside of the planet. And guess what, Fate intended everything to happen the way it did. So Fate does exist. Their lives are pre determined, even Miguel said so atop Geddon.
It's Fate's choice to have the planet die once, dream etc. Crono change the future, Time Crash, Serge appears threatens existance of time and space, etc. etc. etc. So in any case, Serge is fated to win anyway XD
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Goddamit, Zaper, there's not Fate at work besides FATE. If everything is determined by Fate then how can time travel even work the way it does in Chronoverse?
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Yeah in the chronoverse there is no fate even the poyozo doll in Zeal said so he said life can't be predetermined
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Ummm No.. The Poyozo doll asked if you did, and if you believed it like it did, you got a stone because you're allies in a way, duh....
Fate does exist in the Chrono World. Even Miguel said so. And Time Travel can exist in a world where Fate pre determins everything. Duh... Lavos time line is pre determined, Planet having flash backs is predetermined, Crono being chosen as the hero of time is determined, what happens in the changed future is pre determined, what happens in the new future is pre determined, what happens when the time crash happens is pre determined, what Schala does is pre determined, what Serge does is pre determined... The TD being destroyed is pre determined. There. The Entity of Fate knows all.. Otherwise it wouldn't be Fate >.>
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Hm... Interesting.
But, couldn't Miguel be talking about FATE?
Sure, the game didn't have it in caps, but..?
edit:
Hm... Interesting.
But, couldn't Miguel be talking about FATE?
Sure, the game didn't have it in caps, but..?
It's pretty clear in my mind that he's talking about the concept, not the super computer. Although, the descriptions can be applied to both variants, I guess...
Very true, Kazuki.
...What? I didn't feel like making a new post. >_>
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Hm... Interesting.
But, couldn't Miguel be talking about FATE?
Sure, the game didn't have it in caps, but..?
It's pretty clear in my mind that he's talking about the concept, not the super computer. Although, the descriptions can be applied to both variants, I guess...
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The idea of there being fate, and therefore predetermination, negates the possiblity of time travel where you actually change something. In a predetermined universe, time travel to past and future would have already happend, and therefore its impossible to change anything. Therefore, due to near countless examples in CT, there is no predermination, and therefore not fate in the Chronoverse.
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The idea of there being fate, and therefore predetermination, negates the possiblity of time travel where you actually change something. In a predetermined universe, time travel to past and future would have already happend, and therefore its impossible to change anything. Therefore, due to near countless examples in CT, there is no predermination, and therefore not fate in the Chronoverse.
Not neccessarially. It could be that the time alteration is part of fate itself. Look at it from the furthest out perspective possible. From such a view you could see time looping back, being changed, and the old timeline either being split or discarded. Things could be ordained to be changed as well, and thus the final form is what is truly the fashion of time. Rather like something being forged. We think of time as usually being fixed, but what if destiny is molded like steel is forged? It's worked upon and finally has its final perfect shape, just as the Maker intended.
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The idea of there being fate, and therefore predetermination, negates the possiblity of time travel where you actually change something. In a predetermined universe, time travel to past and future would have already happend, and therefore its impossible to change anything. Therefore, due to near countless examples in CT, there is no predermination, and therefore not fate in the Chronoverse.
Not neccessarially. It could be that the time alteration is part of fate itself. Look at it from the furthest out perspective possible. From such a view you could see time looping back, being changed, and the old timeline either being split or discarded. Things could be ordained to be changed as well, and thus the final form is what is truly the fashion of time. Rather like something being forged. We think of time as usually being fixed, but what if destiny is molded like steel is forged? It's worked upon and finally has its final perfect shape, just as the Maker intended.
Exactally.
You wonder why if Serge dies, it says something like "And so Serge was never born, those who defy Fate" yadi yadi yaya. Because Serge is not supposed to die after the time split happens. If he is killed, that means he defied fate and became weak or something. Obviousally, he never dies in CC (exception to the Lynx killing him thing) so the game can go on.
Whilst Fate exists, everything will be pre determined, even time travel, for you are changing the future because Fate allows it. Like I said, Fate maybe wanted to see what would happen if the planet died, planet had flash backs and Fate may have decided to create time gates the second time around, and that would all still be predetermined on a diety level.
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For answers on fate, watch Donnie Darko. I thought there was a quote, which Dr. Montioff said which went like "Well for time travel to exist, you need Fate. But if there is fate, and you can time travel, then you can change it and it wont be fate any more!" I tried to look for it, in quote sites and the actual movie, but can't find it! Maybe I was hallucinating with Donnie...
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The point is that Fate allows you to change time, which is it's will and would prove that Fate still exists.
Like with that Law by Eular or some other guy "Anything that can happen will happen" Or is that Murphy' law. It can happens and will because time is infinite, well possibly anyway, and Fate is one of the powers that would allow anything and everything to happen.
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i still say watch donnie darko :x
Believe Lord_Glavin, Zaper. He IS no.777 after all
Time is not infinite. Why? The universe is not infinite, as everything must die, and that it is known that the universe will soon fall into a state called the big crunch. Now, if the universe does no exist, how will time exist? Multi Verse?
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That's a theory..
OMG IM A RADICAL DREAMER!! COOL LOL
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i still say watch donnie darko :x
Believe Lord_Glavin, Zaper. He IS no.777 after all
Time is not infinite. Why? The universe is not infinite, as everything must die, and that it is known that the universe will soon fall into a state called the big crunch. Now, if the universe does no exist, how will time exist? Multi Verse?
Even if the universe is destroyed time still flows. Consider the big bang theory, where there was nothing, and then with a might explosion formed the cosmos. If time did not flow, then it would have remained the eternal nothingness.
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i still say watch donnie darko :x
Believe Lord_Glavin, Zaper. He IS no.777 after all
Time is not infinite. Why? The universe is not infinite, as everything must die, and that it is known that the universe will soon fall into a state called the big crunch. Now, if the universe does no exist, how will time exist? Multi Verse?
Even if the universe is destroyed time still flows. Consider the big bang theory, where there was nothing, and then with a might explosion formed the cosmos. If time did not flow, then it would have remained the eternal nothingness.
Time would not exist without the universe. The defenition of our 'universe' is the dimensions that define existance, and this includes time. If the universe ceases to exist, presumably that means that the dimensions that define it has (or, rather, they must no longer exist). Thus, even as the universe cannot exist without time, time cannot exist without the universe, for time is a subset of the universe itself.
Acutally, just thinking of time, I came up with something rather interesting regarding time, space, and all the forces of the universe. Essentially, I came to the conclusion that the basic thing of the universe is an unknowable ether. How? Well, consider this. It is plain how all three spacial dimensions interact, and how they influence matter, correct? It is also proven that matter influences gravity and, once the Grand Unified Theory is disconvered, all the forces of the universe will be connected, thus linking even electromagnetism with the existance of matter. Furthermore, electromagnetism is connected with light. Thus one can have a link from light to matter. Since gravity affects light, there is yet another link. Now, matter and time connect in the following way: when something goes faster, the rate of time-flow alters for it. Thus, movement and mass are connected to time. How are they connected? It is said that at the speed of light, mass becomes infinite. Thus, the speed of light defines the upper bound of mass. Also, at the speed of light, time stops. Thus the lower bound of time is defined by light as well. This gives a new meaning to the phrase: let there be light! It may turn out to be true, after all, if light can be seen, or rather the speed of light, can be seen as the defining thing of the universe. Now, through this logic, all forces, matter, and time in the universe have some connection and influence each other, and can be traced to light (arbitarially; it could be traced to any of these, but light has the interesting property of defining the bounds I have mentioned.) But one question remains: why is the speed of light what it is? Light can be slowed down by going through a medium like water, almost to a stand-still, but through vaccuum, it is a set speed, or at least is now (I have heard it said that it may be that light has been slowing down from the beginning). Why this speed? What impedes it? This is what I term ether, after what people used to think lay in the vaccuum. It is a medium that sets the boundaries upon the universe, essentially making the universe the universe, and not void. Now, this would have an interesting property. I'm not certain of this, but the laws governing the speed of light as an upper bound seem to tie to the number, not a given ray of light. If one nearly stops light, the materials through which it passes do not become infinitely heavy, I do not think. So it is the value, the resistance to light's travel, that is important. Thus light itself is meaningless; it is the medium that defines light, and thus the medium which defines what matter and time are. Now, consider that light may indeed be slowing down. This shows a trend of density increase in the medium over time, perhaps due to cooling in the aftermath of creation/bigbang/whatever. And what are the implications of this? That the set speed of light, the upper bound, will fall lower and lower, thus making relative mass of the universe higher and higher, as it will lie nearer the speed of 'light'. Furthermore, time will travel more slowly. Eventually, as the density of this medium impedes all travel of light, the speed of light will go to zero, the universe will become infinitely heavy and, stopping time, come to eternity, where nothing happens. On the flipside, outside the universe, which is essentially void without the ether (the universe being a pocket of ether) light would have free reign to go infinitely quickly, and time would pass at an infinite rate, thus being another form of eternity where all things happen at once.
So, essentially, I propound the idea of an unknowable ether.
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Yeah in the chronoverse there is no fate even the poyozo doll in Zeal said so he said life can't be predetermined
The Chosen One Speaks! :O
Ummm No.. The Poyozo doll asked if you did, and if you believed it like it did, you got a stone because you're allies in a way, duh....
Um...no?
Duh... Lavos time line is pre determined
No, that's just how things unfolded.
Planet having flash backs is predetermined
See above
Crono being chosen as the hero of time is determined
Crono is not Link. He was just in the right place at the right time.
what happens in the changed future is pre determined, what happens in the new future is pre determined, what happens when the time crash happens is pre determined, what Schala does is pre determined, what Serge does is pre determined... The TD being destroyed is pre determined. There.
NOOOOOooooooooooooooo it's not. Give me proof that any of this stuff is predetermined.
The Entity of Fate knows all.. Otherwise it wouldn't be Fate >.>
But it's not. The Entity is the Planet.
Exactally.
You wonder why if Serge dies, it says something like "And so Serge was never born, those who defy Fate" yadi yadi yaya. Because Serge is not supposed to die after the time split happens. If he is killed, that means he defied fate and became weak or something. Obviousally, he never dies in CC (exception to the Lynx killing him thing) so the game can go on.
If Serge's death isn't canon, how can that line be canon? Otherwise you should argue that history cannot be changed because of the Lavos ending.
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Hm, I don't think you can really say if there is fate in the Chrono series. There isn't a lot of evidence for both arguments.
I just look at the Chronoverse, and *any* universe, in a deterministic point of view.
[...] the first Morning of Creation wrote
What the Last Dawn of Reckoning shall read.
~Edward FitzGerald
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So, essentially, I propound the idea of an unknowable ether.
Einstein believed in the "ether" as well. He even accounted for it in his original equations. When it was later disproved, he stood up and said "This is the most beautiful thing I have ever seen."
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So, essentially, I propound the idea of an unknowable ether.
Einstein believed in the "ether" as well. He even accounted for it in his original equations. When it was later disproved, he stood up and said "This is the most beautiful thing I have ever seen."
Really? Tells you what I know. Oh, well.
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Is what i've been trying to say. The universe is just that, ONE...verse
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Aura, you're soo of your rocker.
If Fate exists, then anything that happens has already been determined, even time travel.
How can Crono not be the hero of time when they had that whole entity talk during that Robo side quest. They even said that someone wanted them to see it all. Because you're always going on about that scene in other posts, like how the entity does exist bla bla bla.
When you're thinking of Fate, you're thinking as if it's a lesser diety.
And I never said Serge's death wasn't cannon. I said it was pre determined, so that in 1020 Kid would have to go back in time to save him, which was pre determined too.
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So, essentially, I propound the idea of an unknowable ether.
Einstein believed in the "ether" as well. He even accounted for it in his original equations. When it was later disproved, he stood up and said "This is the most beautiful thing I have ever seen."
Really? Tells you what I know. Oh, well.
Well, now you know one more thing. Never lose your desire to learn and explore.
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If Fate exists, then anything that happens has already been determined, even time travel.
How can Crono not be the hero of time when they had that whole entity talk during that Robo side quest. They even said that someone wanted them to see it all. Because you're always going on about that scene in other posts, like how the entity does exist bla bla bla.
And yet you still give me no evidence supporting Fate's existence that I can even work with/ How can Crono BE the hero of time when Crono was just in the right place at the right time and decided to stop Lavos ALL ON HIS OWN? >_>
How said the Entity was Fate anyway? You're totally mixing up "Fate" and "Planning ahead."
and I meant his Game Over death, silly. You know, the one I QUOTED? Whatever.
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Well, there's nothing to say that Fate doesn't exist. And I already told you, Miguel says that it exists, he had that big quote on how "We are all pawns in the game of life, we can never get off the playing board." etc. etc. and said how Fate braught Serge to this moment and will guide him etc.
And I think it's already been established that Crono and co. are the heros of time. Like someone said at the camp fire scene "Someone wanted us to see all this". We can't be sure that the whole Marle thing was an accident. Like Taban said something like how Crono would do it even if it wasn't Marle etc. So Fate would have known anyway, if Fate exists, which I think it does anyway.
That and Zurvan.
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Maybe that is what Chrono Trigger is about, how one little incident can change the world. Marle.
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Wait! Are we arguing whether the Entity = Fate?
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No... Aura is trying to prove that Fate doesn't exist.
Whilst I'm saying that it exists, along side the Planet as it's own entity.
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You can't prove something doesn't exist, that's impossible in of itself. YOU are the one claiming that Fate exists and is the Entity, so YOU must be the one to provide proof that the general population of the board can understand and accept.
I already told you, Miguel says that it exists, he had that big quote on how "We are all pawns in the game of life, we can never get off the playing board." etc. etc. and said how Fate braught Serge to this moment and will guide him etc.
1) I'm sure Miguel is totally off his rocker by this point
2) Game of Life doesn't make me think about Fate. It makes me think about the eternal struggle of evolution.
3) How do we know he's not talking about FATE?
4) How do we know these aren't just Miguel's religious beliefs or something mixed in with what he knows?
And I think it's already been established that Crono and co. are the heros of time. Like someone said at the camp fire scene "Someone wanted us to see all this". We can't be sure that the whole Marle thing was an accident. Like Taban said something like how Crono would do it even if it wasn't Marle etc. So Fate would have known anyway, if Fate exists, which I think it does anyway.
But I'm not arguing over they're being the Heros of Time. That can't be denied. I'm arguing the claim of them being mystically chosen for the job. They aren't. They chose to do this all on their own with no outside influence (Not counting portals) and the way I see the Entity, I don't think it's actually able to guide anyone. It's still dreaming. And you're going in a circle now. You can't use Fate in an argument to prove Fate.
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I still don't think when Miguel talks about Fate it's just the ramblings of a crazy man...I just don't get that image projected when he speaks. He's obviously a bit warped, considering he's talking about how beautiful the Dead Sea is, but not completely crazy. Also, when you defeat him, his last words are calm and rational, and the very last statement he makes is expressing his love to his daughter and his hopes that she will live in a happier future.
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Aura, I'm saying that Fate IS ANOTHER ENTITY BESIDES THE PLANET, BUT THE PLANET IS SOME WEAKER SHITTY ENTITY!
Hello, Miguel is fully sane. He can remember the past. And he even tells Serge to strike him down so that Serge can go back to his time and Miguel can stop suffering.
Here's what Miguel says on Fate.
Miguel:
'"Fate."'
Our lives are governed
by fate.
Fate knows all
and controls all.
No one can run
from fate...
Miguel:
Even your presence here
was predestined...
long, long ago.
Miguel:
Wouldn't you all like to
become one with this world?
Miguel:
To be a part of eternity?
How about it, Serge?
You need no longer
struggle alone, nor fear
an uncertain tomorrow.
Miguel:
Well? What do you say?
~~~Refuse!!!
~~~Accept...
Member:
Serge!?
You can't be
serious!?
Member:
We can't just let
ourselves die here!
Miguel:
I see...
I guess there's only
one thing left to do then...
I take it you're trying to
restore the dimensional
distortion?
If you defeat me and liberate
this place, the distortion
will return to the way it was.
Miguel:
I guess this is it...
Just as there are times of
peace, there are times of war...
You don't have to hold back.
Attack me with all your
soul if you wish to live.
Let fate take
its course...!!!
After you beat him:
Miguel:
Well done!
That's the way, Serge!
My, you have grown strong.
Maybe...just maybe...you and
your friends have the power
to defeat FATE and build a
new future for humanity.
Miguel:
Perhaps, or perhaps not...
Either way, it is all part of
the grand game of the gods...
and '"goddesses!"'
People are dragged into playing
this game...forced to put their
own lives on the line...without
even knowing the rules.
Without even being allowed to
complain, they try to do their
best under the conditions
placed upon them...
The only alternative is to give
up and leave the playing field
in a forfeit...
Miguel:
It looks like Fate has made
its decision and has started
to carry it out now...
FATE doesn't want the Frozen
Flame to awaken in this place
at this time...
It would choose to destroy the
Flame along with the whole Dead
Sea, than to allow its enemies
to take hold of the Flame...
Enough. Miguel knows what he's talking about. He changed Fate from FATE. There is an entity of Fate. He even said that Serge's being was predestined? But how could that be possible if Serge had died, and only time travelling saved him? BECAUSE Fate KNOWS ALL AND DETERMINS TIME TRAVEL ASWELL! DUH! OTHERWISE IF SERGE STUFFED UP, WE'D BE DOOOMED! AND FATE WOULD CEASE TO EXIST IF TIME AND SPACE WERE DESTROYED! >.>
-
I'm saying that Fate IS ANOTHER ENTITY BESIDES THE PLANET, BUT THE PLANET IS SOME WEAKER SHITTY ENTITY!
Then the whole Entity concept is redundant.
Hello, Miguel is fully sane. He can remember the past. And he even tells Serge to strike him down so that Serge can go back to his time and Miguel can stop suffering.
No, he's not. Just because he can remember the past doesn't mean shit.
All of Miguel's speech
1) Most of that seemed to be poetic imagery. Like the "game" metaphor.
2) What made Miguel, a human imprisoned by FATE, an infalliable resource on the workings of the universe on a cosmic level?
Enough. Miguel knows what he's talking about. He changed Fate from FATE. There is an entity of Fate. He even said that Serge's being was predestined? But how could that be possible if Serge had died, and only time travelling saved him? BECAUSE Fate KNOWS ALL AND DETERMINS TIME TRAVEL ASWELL! DUH! OTHERWISE IF SERGE STUFFED UP, WE'D BE DOOOMED! AND FATE WOULD CEASE TO EXIST IF TIME AND SPACE WERE DESTROYED! >.>
uh...? What? Don't type in caps, it makes you look like a dumbass, and you're looking ridiculous enough as it is.
-
See how asinine you are. I give you your information and you just look at the irrelevance of my post. Just because you can't admit defeat. So conceited >.>
Miguel knows what he's saying. He knows the difference between FATE and the entity Fate in his speaches. Someone whos has 14 years to think over about it, not to mention if he was intergrated with FATE's intellegence, then he'd definetely know.
And by you to say that it was a poetic metaphor is like me saying that the whole camp fire scene in CT was a metaphor too to explain the gates, which case it could be a lie aswell.. >.>
-
See how asinine you are. I give you your information and you just look at the irrelevance of my post. Just because you can't admit defeat. So conceited >.>
Miguel knows what he's saying. He knows the difference between FATE and the entity Fate in his speaches. Someone whos has 14 years to think over about it, not to mention if he was intergrated with FATE's intellegence, then he'd definetely know.
And by you to say that it was a poetic metaphor is like me saying that the whole camp fire scene in CT was a metaphor too to explain the gates, which case it could be a lie aswell.. >.>
I don't understand really why Miguel would recieve any of FATE's, "Insider info." So to speak. If his only purpose was to guard the Dead Sea, what good would to do to explain the facts of the world to him? I think that whatever conclusions he's come to, it's mainly from his own considering and pondering.
-
Mmh... what does this speech by Kid mean?
Member:
We've come this far.
All that remains
is to defeat
the Devourer of Time.
Once we wipe
the Devourer of Time
off the face of this
planet, it's all over!
Hopefully everything
will go back to
normal again...
Kid:
You're wrong...
Things won't ever go back
to the way they were!
Destiny...
'"Fate"'...
is dead!
Kid:
From now on, us humans
have to choose our own
way in life...
We also have to take
responsibility for the
choices we do make.
And somethin's gotta
be done about the way
we go on hurtin' and
killin' one another!
We've gotta settle our
differences once and
for all!
-
@ Kazuki:
I don't personally believe it, but somenoe once said that Miguel was also kind of intergrated, that way FATE would know what he's doing there and if there's any guests etc.
@ Chrono'99
Where in the hell did that come from? I've never once seen that in game. What triggers it? If it's not in the game, but only in the script, it could just be some disgarded stuff.
Also, I don't like the way that fate in "fate" has quotation marks in it. It's almost as if she's talking about the destiny that FATE upheld for everyone. Like my fate was governed by FATE. That's all I can think off. Because if she ment the entity, then that would still mean that it existed, but how can an entity die... It wouldn't make sence...
And if anyone says that Miguel is crazy, then Kid is just as bad. Hello, Dark Serge is right infront of her going on how he likes this new body and shit, and she's going on about how shes gona kill Lynx (Serge) when the group members are saying it's not him.
EDIT:
[Lynx]
Nooo!
How could you...?
I...
FATE...
the Goddess of Fate...
was not meant to die...
Water Dragon:
FATE has fallen...
Fate has died...
It looks way to much like Kid was only talking about what FATE did. FATE was controlling El Nido all along.
And guess what. Belthasar himself was saying something about destiny and how it will guide you or something. And why is one of the chapters something like "Chrono Cross - Where destiny's meet" or something like that >.>
-
Kid says that after you beat the Terra Tower big boss and the tower transforms into its "final form". Storyline-wise, it's right before the final battle against the Devourer of Time at Opassa Beach (FATE has been defeated since quite some time already, that is).
-
Miguel knows what he's saying. He knows the difference between FATE and the entity Fate in his speaches. Someone whos has 14 years to think over about it, not to mention if he was intergrated with FATE's intellegence, then he'd definetely know.
And by you to say that it was a poetic metaphor is like me saying that the whole camp fire scene in CT was a metaphor too to explain the gates, which case it could be a lie aswell.. >.>
So Miguel, an undeniably insane FISHERMAN is more credible than a group of a robot with 400 year's pondering, a genius, a mage who probably knows some stuff about the workings of the universe, a caveman with no moral or religious bias and thusly the clearest clarity of the group, the typical hero and heroine, and a guy weilding a holy sword? WHATEVER! >_> Also note how Miguel keeps switching between metaphor and reality. He's totally nuts.
Kid's Speech
Now this is what I mean. Regardless of who Fate is in her speech, she has a point. A point Chrono Trigger's been making since the beginning. Humans are responsible for their own actions. NO ONE ELSE! For example, even though Lavos made us what we are today, we are still responsible for the pollution we caused.
I don't personally believe it, but somenoe once said that Miguel was also kind of intergrated, that way FATE would know what he's doing there and if there's any guests etc.
If you don't believe it, why'd you bring it up?
Because if she ment the entity, then that would still mean that it existed, but how can an entity die... It wouldn't make sence...
You are an entity too, you know. And you can die.
And if anyone says that Miguel is crazy, then Kid is just as bad. Hello, Dark Serge is right infront of her going on how he likes this new body and shit, and she's going on about how shes gona kill Lynx (Serge) when the group members are saying it's not him.
Keep in mind that Kid was partly possessed or something then.
And guess what. Belthasar himself was saying something about destiny and how it will guide you or something. And why is one of the chapters something like "Chrono Cross - Where destiny's meet" or something like that >.>
Belthasar is probably even more nuts than Miguel, and he was also speaking in poetics. Face it, Zaper. All your evidence is poetic, literary dribble.
Oh the irony. I'M the conceited one.
-
Amazing that you only post this now and before >.>
Miguel isn't insane. Hardly. What makes you think? He never came in contact with the Flame. Belthasar isn't mad in this time line.
Even if humans make their own choices, the deity of Fate will always be the one who is doing it. THAT'S HOW FATE WORKS! You're not supposed to know that your choice is already known by someone >.>
And why can't Kid be talking about FATE. The dragons only escaped when "fate" died. Even in Terra Tower, Belthasar is going on how it wasn't the dragons who sealed the flame, but FATE using it's last power to seal them. Now that Fate has died, they're free. Now that fate is dead, humans can make their... well they think they can... choices.
Fate, if a diety, CAN'T DIE! The Planet didn't die, and it has lost like 65million years of energy >.>
-
Basically everything invovling the Entity and FATE are purely based on specualtion anyways, so no one's theories are better than any one elses, because they can not be proved, if it's not in the game, then you can't criticize someone for making a guess about the subject. The game never clearly states who or what the Entity is, but the closest thing seems to be FATE, but really, who knows what the Entity really is.
-
Miguel isn't insane. Hardly. What makes you think? He never came in contact with the Flame. Belthasar isn't mad in this time line.
14 years in perfect isolation will make anyone go insane. Especially when you have a family you need to go home to. And I beg to differ. Belthasar is completely off his rocker either way.
Even if humans make their own choices, the deity of Fate will always be the one who is doing it. THAT'S HOW FATE WORKS! You're not supposed to know that your choice is already known by someone >.>
And yet, there is no evidence for this deity of Fate whatsoever.
And why can't Kid be talking about FATE. The dragons only escaped when "fate" died. Even in Terra Tower, Belthasar is going on how it wasn't the dragons who sealed the flame, but FATE using it's last power to seal them. Now that Fate has died, they're free. Now that fate is dead, humans can make their... well they think they can... choices.
Um...I WAS arguing that Kid was talking about FATE the computer. You were trying to argue that she was talking about Fate the god. Doy -_- Regardless, if there is any form of a choice whatsoever in any situation, then Fate as you're thinking of it cannot exist.
Fate, if a diety, CAN'T DIE! The Planet didn't die, and it has lost like 65million years of energy >.>
The planet didn't die because Crono saved it. DUH! It did die in the old timeline. The whole point of the Chrono series is that we can make our own descisions. To insist that there is a god of Fate makes the entirety of the Chrono series....suck. Also, in your last post, you said that Fate was an entity. An entity and a deity are not the same thing.
-
While they're not the same, any deity would automatically be an entity as well even though the opposite is, obviously, not true.
-
When I was naming Fate an entity, I was trying to make it sound like a deity. >.>
Well, theres not much proof that the planet is an entity, or atleast not the only one.
We have Zurvan, We have the Planet, Then there's the deity of Fate. Miguel mentions it, Belthasar mentions it, LUCCA MENTIONS IT! (How their destiny's were ment to interwind) even one of the scenario chapters is named "The Arbiter, On whom the Fate's smile upon". That's just as relevant as "For all the dreamers, our planets dream is not over yet", and same with that camp fire scene. You can't disprove one when the other's evidence is very small too.
Also, don't forget the intro of CC. "When was the start of this all, When did the cogs of Fate begin to turn? Prehaps it's impossible to get that answer now, from deep within the flow of time" Something like that.
-
But what about this stuff that Miguel also says?
Miguel:
History is composed of
choices and divergences.
Each choice you make
creates a new world and
brings forth a new future.
But at the same time,
you're eliminating a
different future with the
choices you didn't make.
-
That was more relating to time travel in itself...
And here's what you forgot after it:
Miguel:
A future denied of all
existence because of a
change in the past...
A future that was destroyed
even before it was born
rests here...condensed
into the Dead Sea.
Member:
How is that possible...!?
Member:
How can this be!?
Harle:
......
Miguel:
'"Fate."'
Our lives are governed
by fate.
Fate knows all
and controls all.
No one can run
from fate...
Without that last statement and the questions, of course your quote would sound as if he's not talking about it. But with a full script, it only then makes sence.
-
even one of the scenario chapters is named "The Arbiter, On whom the Fate's smile upon". That's just as relevant as "For all the dreamers, our planets dream is not over yet", and same with that camp fire scene. You can't disprove one when the other's evidence is very small too.
Also, don't forget the intro of CC. "When was the start of this all, When did the cogs of Fate begin to turn? Prehaps it's impossible to get that answer now, from deep within the flow of time" Something like that.
Yes, but whereas those are figures of speech, "Our planet's dream is not over yet" isn't, so the case is still in the Planet=the Entity's corner as far as I can see...
-
"Our planet's dream is not over yet" is as figure of speechly as the cog's of fate part... The whole thing could be a metaphor. Why is it "For all the dreamers"? What if you're not a dreamer? I'm more thinking that it's just not the end of this tale. Dreamers = Serge and co. Planets dream = For the universe to be rid of Lavos/TD. If the Planet was dreaming, we'd be having gates pop open everywhere.
-
It's not figurative, the "planet's dream" thing is the planet's wish and the "cogs of fate" thing is FATE's control over the world. It's just that at the beginning of the game nobody knows that FATE is a computer and not a metaphysical concept (FATE and Fate are two spellings for the same stuff for them), and that the world that FATE is controlling is actually just El Nido.
-
Exactly what I was trying to say.
-
Go Figure >.>
There's no proof to that. I'd rather say it's a metaphor talking about the real Fate, since it's half talking about whats been going on in time and why it's been like that.
And it more like seems that FATE has only ever fully controlled about 5 people's lives. Wazuki's, Miguel's, That Arni poet girl (she never left El Nido), That Arni Chef dude. Anyone from Porre was never stopped in coming or leaving El Nido.
Oh, And the Planet has no wish. It's dying and dreaming. Don't know how far to the past it's dreaming. Maybe the dream never stopped at 1000AD and will never be released from the dream until it dreams of 1999AD again and that is when Lavos doesn't appear... The planet should have nothing to do with CC. It has the littlest of appearance. There's only a few things on it, like it summoning in Dinopolis and it's wrath. What kind of a grateful planet decides that it hates humans (as said by the Dragon God/Aquaterra or whatever). I'd say the planet is loco. It summoned Dinopolis for no reason, only to have countless slaughtered and then possibly the demi-humans were created by dragon/human intercorse. The planet is being very wreckless.
Oh and remember Magus summoning Lavos? If he had succeeded, then the planet would be about 700 years dead in 2300AD. The reason things like that were prevented in the first places were things like Fate in general. And the second time around, Fate wanted Crono and co to stop it :P
-
Oh and remember Magus summoning Lavos? If he had succeeded, then the planet would be about 700 years dead in 2300AD. The reason things like that were prevented in the first places were things like Fate in general. And the second time around, Fate wanted Crono and co to stop it :P
Why assume that Lavos would destroy the world in 600 AD if Magus successfully summoned it? Most likely, Lavos arose in 1999 AD because it had superior resources, was tactically significant, or due to its reproductive cycle. If Magus summoned Lavos to 600 AD, which would probably happen without interference from the time travellers, Lavos would only remain long enough to destroy the threat, like it did to Zeal in 12,000 BC, before returning to the earth until its appointed time to emerge in 1999 AD.
-
Lavos destroyed Zeal because he was awakened.. If he was awakened again, he'd destroy the world and go back under again..
-
Lavos destroyed Zeal because they were ufcking w/him. Why would he destroy stuff just because he's 'awakened'? Seems like it'd just be a waste of energy.
-
What energy would he lose? What? 0.00000000000000000000000001% of all his energy? Pfft >.>
And he's losing energy anyway. Like when Magus' attempt caused that huge gate to open, the energy caused by Lavos' energy possible. I mean, If Lavos was truely summoned, he'd have come out of the PD forcefully, then he'd be pissed.
-
Well...it's been proposed that the giganto gate wasn't Lavos at all...but the Entity or a malfunctioning summoning by Magus...and I still think that it'd be possible for that gate to have occurred w/or w/out Crono & Co's interference...
-
The Magus would have ended up somewhere.
And I completely ignore anyone who says "The Entity did it" or the planet did it. Hello... The planet is dying... From 1000AD, it only has like another 2000 years to live. And even when Lavos does die, he still died with 65 million years or more worth of energy of the planets. It can never get that back, and it'll probably take eons to regain it..
And I just realized. Because there is more than one dimension, with the same planet/entity, it pretty much makes the planet seem as insignificant as every double of each character in each dimension.
-
Magus mostly likely DIED when we originally summoned Lavos.
Zaper, it wasn't Lavos sucking the planets energy that was killing the Entity. IMO, the entity was fine during the time before 1999. But when Lavos erupted, and he unleashed his rain from the heavens, the world was virtually destroyed. THATS what made the Entity start to die.
-
The Magus would have ended up somewhere.
And I completely ignore anyone who says "The Entity did it" or the planet did it. Hello... The planet is dying... From 1000AD, it only has like another 2000 years to live. And even when Lavos does die, he still died with 65 million years or more worth of energy of the planets. It can never get that back, and it'll probably take eons to regain it..
And I just realized. Because there is more than one dimension, with the same planet/entity, it pretty much makes the planet seem as insignificant as every double of each character in each dimension.
Ignorance is bliss.
-
Magus mostly likely DIED when we originally summoned Lavos.
Zaper, it wasn't Lavos sucking the planets energy that was killing the Entity. IMO, the entity was fine during the time before 1999. But when Lavos erupted, and he unleashed his rain from the heavens, the world was virtually destroyed. THATS what made the Entity start to die.
Why would the entity die of that? All Lavos did was pretty much scar it's surface, the crust. If that was all, it'd regenerate in time. But it can't cuz it's low on energy >.<
-
Proof? 1000ad has a lush enviorment, large forests, clean oceans, and thriving civilization. And 1999 looked pretty much the same till Lavos erupted. The planet was fine till that point. Then Lavos erupted. The planet is basically defoliated. You can't regrow if there is nothing left. The planet was doomed the second Lavos erupted and unleashed the Rain of Destruction. You say you always go for explicit in game evidence; Is this not explicit enough?
-
But right before it was destroyed, you see 1999 have all these domed buildings, which show increase in technology. This could mean that they were over using fossil fuels and the likes
-
Domed cities means technology that uses fuel cells and nanomachines. I doubt pollution was a problem in that era.
-
Domed cities means technology that uses fuel cells and nanomachines. I doubt pollution was a problem in that era.
Hmmm, right, but I sorta meant drilling into the planet and taking her life. It probably makes no sense, but hey, thats me
-
But right before it was destroyed, you see 1999 have all these domed buildings, which show increase in technology. This could mean that they were over using fossil fuels and the likes
The only environmental problem I see is the apparent desertification.
-
Of note, Fiona's forest disappears, regardless.
It's almost a direct parallel- We're wasteful, but we're fixing our ways, and I imagine the people of 1999 AD were doing the same.
-
Sentenal, It is game evidence though. Over 5 people say that Lavos is inside the Earth, draining the energy, killing it from the inside out. Maybe the surface looks okay, it doesn't mean the inside is alright, or Lavos was possibly just sucking away at the planets spiritual energy, if it really is the entity. Either way, he probably was weaker in 65,000,000BC than 1999AD.
-
Exactly, the humans maybe manipulating Lavos, and therefore draining spiritual energy, or they might be doing it themselves. That theory came out of thin air, ive had a long day
-
I doubt pollution was a problem in that era.
Why would they live in domes then?
-
I doubt pollution was a problem in that era.
Why would they live in domes then?
Centralized living so that they can have large areas for farming?
-
Well, if you ever really look inside Arris Dome, etc. They're just like a big building/room....